February 8, 2018 • 47 mins
GRAMMY® nominee Julia Michaels gets candid about finding her voice through songwriting, working with Justin Trantor, and her transition from songwriter to artist.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, Executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Every week, we talked to artists, songwriters,
and producers at every level, from emerging to legendary, across
every genre, in front of a live audience in the
Clive Davis Theater at the Grammy Museum. The discussions are intimate, personal,
(00:20):
and completely unscripted. These conversations never failed to surprise me,
and I think you'll feel the same way today. On
Required Listening, you'll hear my recent interview with Julia Michaels
following the release of her debut mini album, Nervous System.
Over the last few years, Julia Michaels has written hits
for some of the biggest artists in pop music, Justin Bieber,
(00:42):
Gwen Stefani, Selena Gomez, Demilvando, Hailey Steinfeld, and Ed Sheeran,
among many others. We'll hear about her thoughtful approach to
writing pop music that she calls musical therapy rather than
a genre with defined boundaries and rules and sounds. She
looks at pop as the best play is to experiment
and establish new trends and frankly have fun, and that
(01:04):
approach certainly seems to be working. Millions of songs sold,
billions of streams later, Her uniquely subversive approach to pop
music is everywhere. But that's when it gets really interesting.
So let's go to the Client Davis Theater at the
Grammy Museum and listen to my conversation with Julia Michaels.
(01:25):
Would you please welcome Julia Michaels. Hi, Hi, you doing?
You can just talk directly to them. I'll just sit
here and you know, watch, that's not a problem. Um.
(01:48):
Thank you so much for coming down and chatting for
for a little while. We appreciate it. So so I'm
wondering this this mini album as you call it. Some
people would call it an EP, but we'll call it
a minium um. Is there is there a hint in
the title nervous System? Is this somehow about how you nervous?
(02:10):
I am no no, no, no no no, But one's
one's nervous system is a way that you kind of
be in touch with the world and your environment. And
I'm wondering if this kind of explains a little well.
I called it nervous system because I am a nervous system.
And two because all of my songs on my EP
(02:32):
or my mini album are kind of interconnected, like a
Nervous System, they all go together. I mean, you've been
very straight up that these songs are true, these are
about you, and and so I'm wondering, is this is
this your way of kind of feeling your way around
(02:54):
your world. I wrote Nervous System in a span of
two months. I've gone through a really horrible breakup with
someone that I was with for a really long time.
And I was asked a lot of questions, because I
do write songs all the time, if there were songs
that I had pulled from my catalog are written for
(03:15):
other people, Uh, and thought, oh, I'll just take this
and put it on my mini album. But you know,
these are all very in the moment and of the
moment and everything that I was feeling. Yeah, And it's
it's a lot different because I've talked to many songwriters
who when it comes time to write an album or
a mini album or whatever, you know, they'll go back
and kind of pick through whatever they've been writing. This
(03:36):
song works, and here's here's ten songs that work. This
was not It's not that it's hard to write for
yourself sometimes, you know, when you when you're a songwriting
and you write for other people, it's easy to say
what you want to say when you're saying it through
somebody else's voice, you know, so it's not directly coming
from you. You're saying exactly what you want to say,
but you're just not using yourself to do it. Yeah,
(03:56):
And when it comes to making your own music, you're like, oh,
I have this from my point of view, and and
that's I mean, that's what interests me a little bit,
particularly in terms of how you work, because I think
how you work with other artists informs very much what
(04:17):
comes out of you as an artist. So when you
are writing with that whole incredible list of people that
I went through, how does that work? What's the first
thing you do when you sit down with someone to
write a song. It depends on the person. A lot
of the times, I'll just talk to them. I mean,
(04:38):
we're all human, we all cry the same, we all
bleed the same, um, So you know, I just I
try to make people feel as comfortable as possible to
be able to tell me things, you know, even if
even if the artists that I'm with doesn't write Uh,
just having them talk is lyrics in itself. You know,
(04:59):
them explain ending their day or expressing how they feel.
It's like, that's amazing, we should write that. That's how
you're feeling. We should write that. So it just depends
on the day and who I'm with. Really, I think
you've referred to it as musical therapy. It is. I mean,
you're you're trusting someone you've never met too, you know,
basically bear everything in front of writing with someone new
(05:21):
can be so nerve wracking. I still get really nervous
when I write with someone new. I just actually did
a song that just came out, this song called I
Miss You with Clean Bandit and thanks guys, ob that
means a lot, thank you. And that was actually our
first session together. And that just happened a couple of
(05:43):
months ago, and I was so nervous that I walked in.
I was like, if you could just play some chords,
that would be awesome. And I wrote the song and
he timed it at forty seven minutes and I was like, cool,
I'm gonna go now. Really nice to meet you. But
we didn't see each other until we shot the music video.
(06:07):
But here's here's here's what I love about that, and
here's my here's my question. So the process of writing,
it's an incredibly collaborative thing. You have to be able
to kind of open yourself up to that other person
and you know, kind of get inside their head a
little bit, but yet be able to work with them.
What is it? What is it about you that makes
(06:28):
you a good collaborator? Best answer I've had all year. Um,
I think when it comes to artists, I listen and
that's really important. That's that's a good one. A lot
(06:49):
of the times with artists and actually seeing it firsthand,
you know, there's just there's so much going on, and
there's a lot of people that care, but there's a
lot of people that don't really care. So you know,
when you're in such an intimate setting and someone is
just literally talking to you and it's like there's nothing
nothing else. Don't even worry about the fact that we're
(07:11):
here trying to write something because we're human and if
we don't get something, then who cares. A lot of
the times, I feel like a lot of people in
this industry feel like if they express how they feel,
they're burdening somebody with their problems. Because they feel like, oh,
I'm famous, like blah blah blah blah blah. People are
going to be like, oh, congrats, you look pretty all
(07:33):
the time. And you know, oh, it's so hard. Yeah,
and it's it's hard. So I think I think a
lot of the times people just think that people don't care. Um,
And I'm the kind of person that does. Yeah. And
here's the here's the thing about that. So you have
this opportunity to sit with another artist and and you
(07:53):
write a song and it's your words and it's and
it's your emotion into a certain degree, and yet then
you walk away. Yeah, you know, even with the Clean
Bandit song, I'm I'm not a very confrontational person. I've
never really been. I have been as of late. Um,
(08:15):
but I'm never this for myself. So writing for me
has always been a sort of release when I'm in there.
When I like when I wrote the Clean Bandit song,
I I went in the booth and I just sang
everything that I was feeling in that moment. And after
(08:38):
I finished, after I knew in my brain that it
was complete. It was like going in there with an
inhale and coming out with the next haale. It's very
cathartic and very releasing for me. So so you kind
of get to unburden yourself completely through other people. See
what the funny thing, it's really cool. The funny thing
is is when you write for other people, you get
(08:58):
to have that exhale and even there, I now have
to sing these songs and relive these memories all the time,
hold on. So all right, but that's but that's that's it.
I mean, I I can't tell you how many artists
that I've talked to songwriters who say, you know, you
gotta think a little bit about what you're writing because
(09:19):
you've got to sing that every night you do, and
to kind of get engaged in that, whatever the moment was,
whatever the misery, the trouble, the challenge, the issue, no
pun intended. Um, I know what I'm doing here. Um,
you you literally have to engage with that every night,
(09:43):
every night. But you know, if anything, I relive it yet.
But but then I realized how strong I am for
getting out of it. And you know, each each day
and each month and each year is different and with
that come a different perspective from the song. You know, Um,
(10:04):
what a song means to me? Now could mean something
completely different to me in six months. So you went
through all of this songwriting and and you're writing for
these other artists, and you're, you know, you're you're kind
of getting your stuff out through these other folks, and
then you write this song issues. Yeah, So what happened
when you tried to give that away? Well, actually I
(10:27):
had written that song about a year before it had
I had even decided that I wanted to put it out.
I had written it in a camp for an artist,
and it was a day that my boyfriend and I
at the time had gotten a really horrible fight about
(10:48):
something so stupid, and he just made me feel like
a piece of ship all day. Sorry to the kids
in the audience, UM, I have a horrible mouth. I'm
really trying to keep it together for you guys. You're
doing great. You're doing great. Um and Um. I had
written that song and it was actually cut by a
(11:09):
couple of different people, and it just dawned on me
one day that I didn't want to give that song
to anybody because of the reason why I had written it.
I I've always putting myself into a little bit of
everything that I write, But that was such a personal story,
and I can't tell you the real story unless we're
(11:31):
not a camera than I probably can, but we are
so um you can whisper it to us later. And
so that one really really struck a nerve with me.
And I had met Charlie walk through Hayley Steinfeld. I
was working on the EP with her. We actually her
whole first EP together and Charlie. When Charlie met me,
(11:55):
he walked into the studio and he looked at me
and he pointed at me very sternly, like like your
dad does when you're in trouble. I think I think
you said he gave you the dads. Yeah, he he
really did. And he looked at me and he was like,
you're an artist. And I was like, you're crazy, and
he was like, no, you're an artist. And it was
(12:17):
the first time that anyone had looked at me first
glance and said that to me. And I had never
really had that before. I've never really been much of
a confident person, and I think it took something like
that to sort of hit me over the head and
be like, yeah, I've been suppressing something that I want
(12:38):
because I'm so insecure and self conscious. And then so
Charlie convinces you that that you are an artist? And
then I sent him the song and I said, Charlie,
what do you think of this? And he goes, well,
what do you want me to think of this? And
I was like, well, what do we put it out? Uh?
(12:58):
You know, I don't know. I don't know anything about
the side of things. Um. He was like, yeah, let's
do it. And then it was just it was just
everywhere crazy, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was amazing. Did you
have any sense, no clue, but it was. It was amazing.
And when and when that happened, and it's and people
(13:20):
started to react, Um a sense of self confidence for you?
Did you all of a sudden start to believe that
you were in fact an artist? You know? I convinced
myself every day that I'm good enough. Um that right,
don't we? If anything? If anything? This year, what I've
(13:44):
learned the most is how connecting music is. You know,
being a songwriter, you never really see that. You're never
in the forefront, so you don't see how you influence people.
And we we just performed in France a bol months
ago and it was crazy. It was ten thou people
(14:05):
that don't really speak the same language, and I mean
singing all of the words to issues and it was
just it was amazing. So it's just incredible how how
far music can go and how how much it can
touch people, you know. And but that's that's one of
the things I think that has been has been discussed
(14:26):
about you is that you are very open about who
you are and who what the challenges are around you,
and that people sometimes seem to struggle with that a
little bit, that that they don't get that about you. Well,
I mean, I'm sorry, that's who I am, too bad,
(14:48):
But I'm wondering for you in that, you know, particularly
song like Issues, and there's there's a whole thing about
the construction of the song that that I wanted to
talk about because I think it turns pop music upside down.
But um um, I'll get to that. It's a good thing.
I'll get to that. But the the whole thing about
being very open about your vulnerability and and for you,
(15:12):
is there a power in that? Oh completely? You know,
especially as a woman. I think I think we're always
sort of type cast as the crazy over emotional um type,
you know, And I don't see that as a weakness.
I like I can openly talk about how I feel.
That's amazing. Why is that bad? And I have to
(15:41):
ask you because I think there was there was a
songwriter that you worked with, and I'm going to butcher
her name, Shelly, Shelly Pike in who she she gave
you some advice, Oh, dare to suck exactly, dare to suck.
But that struck me. What did that mean to you? Yeah?
(16:05):
I met Shelley, uh like three or four years ago,
and she said that term to me. When it was
like she was like, Okay, this could be really stupid.
I'm gonna dare to sock here. And I was like,
that is amazing. And I've just kind of kept that
in my brain when I write. And luckily I write
with the same people all the time. Uh so when
(16:25):
I say ridiculous things, they don't look at me like
I'm a crazy person. So dare to stock is basically like,
I'm gonna just say this and this could be insane,
but sometimes the craziest things lead to the best things. Yeah,
and you know, and and it's look, it's obviously your
personal life is very much kind of part of your
your subject matter. And I've read things about you where
(16:48):
where If things are going too well for you, panic
full panic. I love this, I love this. You might
just throw throw a little wrench in the gears, just
to give yourself something to write about. Yeah, I poor kid.
I used to uh yeah, if things were too good,
(17:12):
I guess it was kind of like, what's wrong, something's wrong?
What are you doing? Yeah, I'm too happy, that knows.
I don't want to be too happy here. So so
here's the other thing. And I talked about this, um
the issues. Okay, So the sound of that song to me, okay,
old guy, give you that um. But but listening to
(17:35):
the song to me, it completely subverts the pop sort
of construction. It doesn't have. You know, I'm waiting for
the big chorus with the boom boom boom. Here it comes,
never comes, never happens. And you know what, it makes
it better because I'm anticipating something it doesn't doesn't come.
It kind of makes me tune into it. Tell me
(17:56):
about how you constructed that song. I've never I've never
really been the kind of person to follow trends. And
when Issues came out, that was really big. Uh, that's
sort of big course, big drop situation and I've just
never done anything um normal, you know, I just always
do what I want to do. When we did Issues,
(18:20):
we actually started with the string sound, and I had
issues written down in my notepad and my on my phone.
I never write anything down, so when I had that,
I was like, oh, interesting, And we wrote it in
in about an hour and then basically we wrote it
to that and just like a snap and a kick
(18:40):
and and then that was it. Because I mean, in
the writing and recording of that song, it strikes me
that every time you had the chance to do the
predictable thing, you didn't. And I'm wondering if that was,
if that was if that was really in your mind
as you're going through this. You know, we could go
into the big pre course, we could do the big
or this thing here, we could do the drop whatever,
(19:02):
and you didn't do I'm not that calculated when I write.
I'm all hard when I write, So I don't think
about the algorithm of a song or like, you know,
the mathematics of a song. I just think like this
feels good to me and just kind of go with that.
And you know the other thing about particularly in pop
music and particularly in in your position and I want
(19:24):
to I want to get your opinion about this. You know,
oftentimes labels in particular, we'll want to put you with
every hot producer and kind of you know, create something
for you in a sense. Have you resisted that, Well,
I actually haven't. Haven't experienced that. I think because I've
(19:45):
been a songwriter for so long. Uh, they never they
never tried to push anything on me. I was already
working with some amazing people, uh, and I had been
for a really long time, so they didn't have to
push anything on me or anything like that. Plus I
always tell people to have off like I, I just
don't care. So so after issues, there's another song, uh
(20:09):
huh you know, and you've called that completely genre lists. Yeah,
like it doesn't have a genre. What does that mean?
It kind of has elements of everything, so you can't
really box it and you prefer it that way. Yeah.
I think a lot of music nowadays is becoming general lists.
And look, you've worked with some pretty big pop artists,
(20:32):
whether it's Selena Gomez or Justin Bieber, you know Nick Jonas.
I mean, these are people working in the pop world
for sure, But do you find that um confining? No? Wow? No, No,
not at all. If anything, I mean, pop is the
best place to change music and make trends. How so
(20:52):
for you, well, I mean, you know we can take
from anything. I mean pop. I just feel like pop
is the place where you can just be experimental and
have fun. You work with a guy named Justin Tranter,
So my hero Justin Tranter fans here tonight as they did.
(21:14):
How did you meet him? How did you meet Justin?
I met Justin in a session. Actually, my day to
day at the time put us together in his publisher.
I had been working with the same people a lot,
and I was like, this feels really monotonous, and I'm
just I don't feel creative right now, Like I don't
feel inspired. So my day to day was like, let's
(21:35):
do a week of new sessions and if it works, awesome.
If not, you have your people you can go back to,
no problem. So he was my first session and I
show up. He is in heels and a parachute outfit,
full makeup, just fabulous, and you know I had that
(21:57):
all prepared for you. Shut up sexy, uh, And he
he wanted to write something that was like nineties in vogue,
and I was like that's not please, and I texted.
(22:20):
I texted Alyssa my day to day and I was like,
I can't do I don't like, this isn't my style.
I like, I don't know what I'm doing. And she
was like, shut the hell out do the session. And
I was like okay, and oh my gosh, like it's
a whole story. I almost got beat up by somebody.
(22:41):
It's like we were walking the street. I was like
wearing his full winter coat and nine degree weather because
I have no concept of temperature, and and this woman,
so Justin was like, he was like, why are you
wearing a full winter coat? And I just kind of
flung my arms up like I don't know the this
is what I do. And this woman from across the
(23:03):
street thought that I was being like, come at me.
And so we hear someone talking behind us and we're
just going about our day and we turned around and
she looks at Justin. She's like, looks like, your little
girlfriend here is trying to start problems. And I look
at me. Are you talking about me? Yeah? And so
(23:26):
we were like we were just like okay, I don't
know what just happened. We started we were just laughing
and she's like, yeah, be keep laughing, and I was like,
I'm gonna get beat up. I was like I don't
know what to do, and Justin's like, I got you,
don't don't worry, and we just ran across the street
as fast as By the way, this is Justin, this
(23:47):
is Justin in heels. So it's the real bonding experience
for us. Um and then and then I ended up
hiding in a closet because it was my first session
and I, of course get on believably terrified when I
write with new people. He gave me a title and
I was like, can I just sit in there? And
he's like, you mean the hall closet. It's like, yeah,
(24:12):
yeah there. And I ended up writing like a verse
in the courts to the song and coming out and
he's like, oh, you're psychotic, but it's totally fine. We're
But you guys, I mean, you guys have really found
a groove to together. When when you write we just
celebrated four years together. Thank you, congratulations. Thanks. When you
(24:35):
guys write together, is there a division of labor in
terms of is somebody writing the melody, is somebody writing
the top line? How does that? Yeah? We've we've developed
like a very good technique together. He's good cop, I'm
bad cop. Good to uh So a lot of the time,
like if we're with an artist, and you know, it
(24:56):
doesn't happen all the time, thank god, but sometimes someone
will have an idea or a lyric and it's like and,
um and uh so what we like to do when
it comes to artists, just certain artists or certain moments
I should say. He'll kind of be like hi, and
(25:17):
then I'll be over there like changing everything. So it's
just like full deflection. I'm just like, Okay, don't look
at the man. When it comes to when we write
for for my stuff, um, since we since we started together,
(25:38):
he always has let me write as if I was
the artist, because he's always kind of felt that about me,
and so a lot of the times he'll let me
sort of write the bulk of it, and then if
there's things that I can't fully piece together, he'll come
in and be like, okay, let's but a lot of
(25:59):
the times he'll just fully let me get all my
emotions and all my ideas out of my body and
then we'll kind of fix everything together. Do you guys
work quickly. You don't don't labor over things. No. No,
the day we wrote a huh, we had gone through
I think three ideas that day and we're just like, no,
(26:19):
that's not good. Nope, that's not good. And then we
uh and then we finished that one and we're like, Okay,
this is good. This is so much fun. Do you
get involved with um, you know, kind of sonics and
production in terms of how things Definitely I have a
very easily stimulated mind. I can't write to things that
(26:42):
are that are super intense or fully formed, because then
I can't hear melodies. I need everything in the track
and around me to be very simple. I can't be
in a room with everybody singing melodies at the same time,
or I'm just like I need you should just uh
(27:03):
definitely done that before. So a lot of the times
I just need everything to be very simplistic for me
to write to. And once once you write these things
and you kind of get them buttoned up in the studio,
particularly if they're your songs, then you're going to go
out and perform them. And you've been you've been very upfront,
(27:27):
well uh that you know you got a little you've
got some anxiety issues. Okay, fair enough, But also I
don't I don't know that you were ever absolutely sure
that you wanted to be the artist. It's not that
I wasn't sure. It's just that I've never been confident
enough to allow myself to say it out loud. Did
(27:50):
Charlie help you get there? I think a lot of
people have helped me get there. Um. I mean my manager, Becatisca.
She's been with me for six years and she's always
believed in me. Yeah, you can clap. That's a big clap. Yeah.
And you know, this year, a lot of people have
come into my life. I mean even my band Dan
(28:11):
Cantor who uh he's my guitar player, and Iamdi. I
met him in Nashville earlier this year because I was
just I was trying to find you know, we love
those Nashville guitar players. Come on. He's actually in Canada
and we met in Nashville. He had gone on tour
with a couple of artists and he was really good
(28:32):
friends with someone at Universal and put us in contact.
And he's been with me since the beginning of the
artist transition. And I don't even I don't I can't
even do it without him at this point. He's He's
like my safety net when I performed. So there's a
lot of people in my life, especially this year, that
have that have made me feel comfortable and confident and
(28:55):
and and how are you doing with that? These days?
We were talking upstairs, You're about to go out. I
don't sleep ever, uh, but it's awesome. Like I said,
you know, every day gets easier and easier. So I'm
interested in in the work as a songwriter, transitioning now
(29:18):
to being you know, to being the the artists you
dropped the mini album, You've been out playing a little bit.
What have you learned about yourself as an artist? What
have I learned about myself? I mean, I've always been, uh,
the kind of person that where's my heart on my sleeve.
I've always been sort of unapologetically myself. I'll meet someone,
(29:44):
uh and I'll start crying, and that's just who I am. Uh.
So I don't know if I've really learned anything about
myself as an artist. If anything, it's solidified who I
am as a person. Are there are there other artists
that you look up to as as either songwriters or
(30:06):
performers I've always been super influenced by Pink. She's, yeah,
why what what? What is it? What is it about Pink? Once?
She's a badass. I saw her on the Grammys that
year where she was like flying from the rafters. Get
(30:28):
a fan girl out here for a second. Close. I
saw her perform at Where were We Dan? My Heart Vegas? Okay,
you think the acrobat Okay, she was in this belt
where she wasn't just flipping upside down, she was flipping
like three D and sixty degree Okay. But the best
(30:52):
part she literally like going all the way around the
arena and then at one point they launched her all
the way to the top and then she she flips
down so her head is down and and then just
dives into the crowd and right right above someone's face,
like right here, and I'm my I mean, my jaw
(31:15):
was fully dropped. I might have peed myself. It was.
It was amazing. And she yeah, I mean she did
this thing on the Grammys, and the whole time I'm
looking at it going worst case scenario, Oh my god,
what is it? Was crazy? Dan hadn't closed my jaws,
so she's would you ever do that? Like hanging from
(31:37):
the ceiling. No, leave that to the professionals. Pink. Who
else besides Pink? Who else? Who do you admire? There's
so many people. I love Fiona Apple, I love I
love a lot of artists that are not afraid to
(31:58):
say what they want to say. I love artists that
write their own music. Yeah. I read something that you haven't.
You know, an admiration for Laura Marley. Yeah, Laura Marley. Yes,
Why what is it about? Because she's not as well
known as Pink. Uh the same she's very very much
from her point of view, very much whatever she wants
(32:20):
to do. Uh. And plus her voice is so haunting
and beautiful. And there's one guy, And I have to
ask you about this because you used the baseline from
Psycho Killer in a song called Bad Liar, And you've
talked about your admiration and I admire this guy as well.
And I'm old, um David Byrne. What is it about
(32:43):
David Byrne that inspires you? I mean, sonically, he was
just so ahead of his time. I mean once in
a lifetime and burning down the house. I mean they
there are songs that if they were on the radio now,
they would feel current they're just timeless. So he makes
timeless songs and they're just so unique and just pushed
(33:06):
so many boundaries. It's just it's just awesome. Yeah, of
all the bands that we need a retirement tour talking heads,
I'm just saying, just putting it out there, talking heads
one more time, that would be I don't think it
will ever happen, but I think it would be cool. Um,
you also had you also had you know, a number
of for lack of a better term, mentors. You met
(33:28):
Joline Bell I did when when you were young, who
led you to Lyndy who ultimately, you know, Becca kind
of came into your life to talk about what these
what these women meant to you. You know, I don't
think it's necessary and necessarily has to do with them
being a woman and has to do with their expertise,
(33:50):
which Lyndy is still to this day one of my
favorite songwriters. I mean, she really taught me everything that
I know. You know, I used to think that you
had to go in with a concept and be ready
and just always be on and ready to go. And
when I met her, she's like, how you doing. I'm like, well,
(34:12):
you know, I'm okay, No, no, what's what's happening? Well,
you know this and that and this and that. She's like,
you know, we should write about that, and I was like, oh,
oh okay, cool, yeah, let's do that. Did that kind
of lead you in a kind of down to different
path in terms of thinking about songwriting completely? Yeah. I
(34:33):
think I was always afraid to put myself into things,
um because people wouldn't care. Until I met Linda, And
then I realized that people want to hear what you
have to say. And you know, you realize that you
have so much more in common with people than you
think you do. That's another thing I've learned throughout this process.
(34:54):
So I read something fascinating about you that that there
was there were points over the last few years where
you were right eating something like incredibly prolific, like three
songs a day. Oh my gosh, don't do that well.
I mean the question is the question is where did
did did sleeping and eating? Like? Was that was that
(35:15):
involved as well? I mean what was driving you? So
many things? You guys? So, you know, Justin and I
were doing well. First. First, I was signed to a
publisher when I was nineteen, and when you're nineteen and
you're just starting out, you don't realize that you can
say no to people. So I was just in sessions
(35:37):
all the time. She would put me in everything, and
I didn't realize that I could say no. And that's
actually how how Becca came into play. Lindy was signed
to a company called AM and Becca was a manager there,
and she was like, you need to meet Becca. You
need to meet somebody who's going to stick up for
you and someone that's going to say no for you,
(35:57):
because you clearly don't know how to do it for yourself.
And I met Becca and I showed up in an
Iowa Hawkeye sweatshirt. Um I was born in Davenport, Iowa,
but um raised in l a And I show up
to our meeting in the sweater and she's she's thinking like, oh,
she trying to impress me. Like she's like, why are
(36:19):
you wearing that. I was like, I'm from Damnport. She's like,
I'm from Dubuque and those are favoring towns for the
people that don't know Iowa. And uh, we just we
hit it off instantly. I was like, where's the pen,
Let's do this, you know, And so we've been talking about,
you know, writing with all these big artists and oh wait,
(36:40):
but but wait, okay, so so okay. But then then
I started doing doing more sessions again because Justin and
I had written two songs in night sessions and we
never did. I'm I never do night sessions because I'm
I'm an early person. I like to get up and
(37:02):
start my day and do a twelve to six and
then go home and eat lots of candy and watch
stranger things. Uh So we just never do night sessions.
And it went. We went through a time where we
started to do them because we had written Sorry in
(37:22):
a night session, and then a week later we wrote
a song with this artist Caigo called carry Me in
a night session and we were just like, shoot, do
we now have to just start doing night sessions along
with our day sessions. So then we started doing them
all the time because we were just like, oh my gosh,
just clearly something working here, full paranoia. Don't do that,
(37:44):
you guys, horrible. Um so, all of these sessions and
you're working with these artists and now you've got this
issues is out, the mini album and their hits or whatever.
But this was not overnight. And I think I think
it's Horton. You know, you talk about you know I
got put in this session, I can put that session.
There's a ton of rejection and struggle that comes with this.
(38:09):
Talk a little bit about the early years of this
and and the challenges you faced. You know, I think
I faced. I faced a lot of agism actually doing
this so young. You know, people don't really wanna take
a chance on someone that's new and not experienced. They
(38:31):
don't think that you have anything to say, which, you know,
I'm so grateful for the people that that did do that,
you know, because I wouldn't be here without them. But
I faced a lot of that. But you know, I
never really saw it as as as a disadvantage. I
always saw it as I'm going to prove you guys
all wrong that I can do this. I I know
I can do this, so fair fair warning. Gonna ask
(38:53):
for a couple of questions from the house here in
in a minute. But tell me, tell me because I'm
always interested in this. First time you heard one of
your songs on the radio, where were you the first
time I heard which one? Pick one? The first time
you heard your song, anything you wrote another artist? Whatever? Okay, Well,
the first time, the first time I ever heard one
(39:14):
of my songs that I've written on the radio Wash
Miss Moving on with with Harmony. I was nineteen and
I knew they were going to play it on Kiss FM,
so I was driving around in my car waiting for it,
waiting for it. It was my it was the first song,
and they ended up doing an acoustic version on the
(39:35):
show live, and I had pull my car over and
it was just hysterically crying. Uh. And then it happened
this the same exact thing, well not the same exact thing,
but the same thing happened with issues. I was sitting
in traffic and I was flipping through stations and then
I put on Kiss FM and it was the first
time I had heard it. And my initial reaction was
(39:56):
turned to the person next to me, like, oh my
god on and then I was like, no, it's here.
So I was just sitting in traffic crying, very decided
for myself. That's such a that's such a Los Angeles story.
(40:17):
I've heard this from other from other artists who happened
to be based in Los Angeles. Inevitably, it's in your
car and then they burst out crying. So the next
time you see somebody crying in their car, they could
be the next great songwriter. Um. Okay, so do we
have a question or two from the house? Yes, right right,
I can see anybody right here to thank you for
(40:37):
your word. Thanks you did, Oh my gosh. And then
I wanted to ask how impacted your day to day life? Um,
how's an impacted my life? I mean, thank you so much.
That's so nice, that's so nice. Thank you. Of course
(40:59):
I didn't get one. Okay, it's okay, okay, okay, it's okay, kitty. UM,
if anything, if anything, had showed me how much love
there is out there. UM, I know that sounds super cheesy.
I did, uh this Lincoln Park tribute, um about a
(41:20):
week ago. Yeah. I had written a song with them
called Heavy, and you know it was it was a
celebration of life. And I went out there and I
was jumping and smiling and I was like, you know,
like I'm here for him. And I got a lot
of backlash for doing so. And I was there to
celebrate his life, not more in his death. And you know,
(41:43):
I put a message out on Twitter explaining why I
was doing that. You know, when I met Chester, he
was so fun and outgoing and didn't take himself too seriously,
and I loved that about him, and so I wanted
to just embot that for him. And for every hate
(42:03):
message that I had gotten, I had gotten twenty more
that we're saying. You know, you did great. I love you,
And that was amazing h if so, If anything, it
showed me how how real people are, how supportive people are,
and and how how much love there is. Who else, yes,
(42:23):
right here? My favorite Thanks. This is actually one of
my favorite stories because I'm so crazy. Um uh. So.
I had actually written a couple of times with Ed.
(42:45):
He was kind of working with some new people and
I met him through a producer, Benny Blanco, who I
did issues with, and Ed was doing a camp in
Malibu with all of the people that he works with,
like his core people, and he had asked me to
come and I was like, oh my gosh, yes, I
(43:06):
would love to come. Uh And so I was the
only new person was horrified. It was around the time
that I was going through a lot of anxiety because
I had just written a few songs that had done
really well, and so I was feeling a lot of pressure.
And with that comes a lot of anxiety, and he
(43:26):
had cameras following everybody, and I was we were writing,
I was riding with uh foy Vans and he comes
over with the cameras and my eyes just go and
I slowly backed away and I ran into Benny's room.
I had a full panic attack. He put ice in
(43:49):
my hands, um, and in order to distract my brain
from what was happening, and he kept me in his
room with him for two days. Uh. He was like,
you don't have to go out there, you don't have
to be around cameras. He completely shielded me and protected
me from it because he knew how horrified I was.
And the first day that that happened, I had started
(44:12):
the course of dive the melody, and then I was like,
I'm so beat, I'm so drained just from all of
this anxious energy. I was like I have to leave.
So he drove home and the next day I came
back and ED was like, I love that course. Let's
finish it. And we finished it together. So you know,
anxiety sucks, but sometimes it works out really well. So UM,
(44:36):
So last question, um, and I'm gonna a quote of yours.
I always used the feeling of not being good enough
as my driver to be good enough still the case,
oh always. So you know, I was told a lot
when I was a kid that, um, I couldn't sing
(44:58):
or you know, like a lot of the times in
my family, I was always the songwriter or you know this,
or that, I was never the singer, and that always
bothered me so much. And you know, I'm not the
greatest singer. I don't think that about myself. I I
can write, and I know that I can write, and
(45:18):
I know that I can tell my story and only
I can tell my story. So that drives me. You know,
I want to be good enough for myself so that
other people feel good enough for themselves. That is the
perfect place to put the button on this discussion. Um,
(45:39):
we are so glad that you took the time to
come down here and share a little bit of your story.
So ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Julia Michaels.
Thank you. That was my conversation with Julia Michaels. Such
a bright light her willingness to be open about herself,
(46:01):
and I hope you've got a sense of her growing
self confidence as a writer and artist. You know, no
one comes to songwriting or performing fully formed, and it's
always interesting to listen and watch as artists evolve in
their craft. I'm getting a t shirt made that says
dare to suck words to live by. So that was
your required listening for today. We'll be here twice a
(46:24):
week with new episodes, and if you happen to be
in downtown Los Angeles, please come visit us at the
Grammy Museum. We've got thirty thou square feet of exhibits
and interactive displays that will engage your eyes and your ears.
Go to our website at grammy museum dot org for
all the information. You'll also find a list of our
upcoming public programs. I'd love to keep the conversation going,
(46:46):
so feel free to hit us up on all the
social platforms. Follow us on Twitter at Grammy Museum, send
us your thoughts and comments using hashtag required Listening. Like
us on Facebook at grammy Museum, and follow us on
Instagram at grammy Museum. Finally, thanks to the team that
makes required Listening happen. Jason James, Justin, Joseph Lynn Sheridan,
(47:08):
Jim Kennella Kittrick Kerns, Miranda Moore, Jason Hope, Nick Stump,
and the entire team at how Stuff Works for required listening,
I'm Scott Goldman.
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, Executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Every week, we talked to artists, songwriters,
and producers at every level, from emerging to legendary, across
every genre, in front of a live audience in the
Clive Davis Theater at the Grammy Museum. The discussions are intimate, personal,
(00:20):
and completely unscripted. These conversations never failed to surprise me,
and I think you'll feel the same way today. On
Required Listening, you'll hear my recent interview with Julia Michaels
following the release of her debut mini album, Nervous System.
Over the last few years, Julia Michaels has written hits
for some of the biggest artists in pop music, Justin Bieber,
(00:42):
Gwen Stefani, Selena Gomez, Demilvando, Hailey Steinfeld, and Ed Sheeran,
among many others. We'll hear about her thoughtful approach to
writing pop music that she calls musical therapy rather than
a genre with defined boundaries and rules and sounds. She
looks at pop as the best play is to experiment
and establish new trends and frankly have fun, and that
(01:04):
approach certainly seems to be working. Millions of songs sold,
billions of streams later, Her uniquely subversive approach to pop
music is everywhere. But that's when it gets really interesting.
So let's go to the Client Davis Theater at the
Grammy Museum and listen to my conversation with Julia Michaels.
(01:25):
Would you please welcome Julia Michaels. Hi, Hi, you doing?
You can just talk directly to them. I'll just sit
here and you know, watch, that's not a problem. Um.
(01:48):
Thank you so much for coming down and chatting for
for a little while. We appreciate it. So so I'm
wondering this this mini album as you call it. Some
people would call it an EP, but we'll call it
a minium um. Is there is there a hint in
the title nervous System? Is this somehow about how you nervous?
(02:10):
I am no no, no, no no no, But one's
one's nervous system is a way that you kind of
be in touch with the world and your environment. And
I'm wondering if this kind of explains a little well.
I called it nervous system because I am a nervous system.
And two because all of my songs on my EP
(02:32):
or my mini album are kind of interconnected, like a
Nervous System, they all go together. I mean, you've been
very straight up that these songs are true, these are
about you, and and so I'm wondering, is this is
this your way of kind of feeling your way around
(02:54):
your world. I wrote Nervous System in a span of
two months. I've gone through a really horrible breakup with
someone that I was with for a really long time.
And I was asked a lot of questions, because I
do write songs all the time, if there were songs
that I had pulled from my catalog are written for
(03:15):
other people, Uh, and thought, oh, I'll just take this
and put it on my mini album. But you know,
these are all very in the moment and of the
moment and everything that I was feeling. Yeah, And it's
it's a lot different because I've talked to many songwriters
who when it comes time to write an album or
a mini album or whatever, you know, they'll go back
and kind of pick through whatever they've been writing. This
(03:36):
song works, and here's here's ten songs that work. This
was not It's not that it's hard to write for
yourself sometimes, you know, when you when you're a songwriting
and you write for other people, it's easy to say
what you want to say when you're saying it through
somebody else's voice, you know, so it's not directly coming
from you. You're saying exactly what you want to say,
but you're just not using yourself to do it. Yeah,
(03:56):
And when it comes to making your own music, you're like, oh,
I have this from my point of view, and and
that's I mean, that's what interests me a little bit,
particularly in terms of how you work, because I think
how you work with other artists informs very much what
(04:17):
comes out of you as an artist. So when you
are writing with that whole incredible list of people that
I went through, how does that work? What's the first
thing you do when you sit down with someone to
write a song. It depends on the person. A lot
of the times, I'll just talk to them. I mean,
(04:38):
we're all human, we all cry the same, we all
bleed the same, um, So you know, I just I
try to make people feel as comfortable as possible to
be able to tell me things, you know, even if
even if the artists that I'm with doesn't write Uh,
just having them talk is lyrics in itself. You know,
(04:59):
them explain ending their day or expressing how they feel.
It's like, that's amazing, we should write that. That's how
you're feeling. We should write that. So it just depends
on the day and who I'm with. Really, I think
you've referred to it as musical therapy. It is. I mean,
you're you're trusting someone you've never met too, you know,
basically bear everything in front of writing with someone new
(05:21):
can be so nerve wracking. I still get really nervous
when I write with someone new. I just actually did
a song that just came out, this song called I
Miss You with Clean Bandit and thanks guys, ob that
means a lot, thank you. And that was actually our
first session together. And that just happened a couple of
(05:43):
months ago, and I was so nervous that I walked in.
I was like, if you could just play some chords,
that would be awesome. And I wrote the song and
he timed it at forty seven minutes and I was like, cool,
I'm gonna go now. Really nice to meet you. But
we didn't see each other until we shot the music video.
(06:07):
But here's here's here's what I love about that, and
here's my here's my question. So the process of writing,
it's an incredibly collaborative thing. You have to be able
to kind of open yourself up to that other person
and you know, kind of get inside their head a
little bit, but yet be able to work with them.
What is it? What is it about you that makes
(06:28):
you a good collaborator? Best answer I've had all year. Um,
I think when it comes to artists, I listen and
that's really important. That's that's a good one. A lot
(06:49):
of the times with artists and actually seeing it firsthand,
you know, there's just there's so much going on, and
there's a lot of people that care, but there's a
lot of people that don't really care. So you know,
when you're in such an intimate setting and someone is
just literally talking to you and it's like there's nothing
nothing else. Don't even worry about the fact that we're
(07:11):
here trying to write something because we're human and if
we don't get something, then who cares. A lot of
the times, I feel like a lot of people in
this industry feel like if they express how they feel,
they're burdening somebody with their problems. Because they feel like, oh,
I'm famous, like blah blah blah blah blah. People are
going to be like, oh, congrats, you look pretty all
(07:33):
the time. And you know, oh, it's so hard. Yeah,
and it's it's hard. So I think I think a
lot of the times people just think that people don't care. Um,
And I'm the kind of person that does. Yeah. And
here's the here's the thing about that. So you have
this opportunity to sit with another artist and and you
(07:53):
write a song and it's your words and it's and
it's your emotion into a certain degree, and yet then
you walk away. Yeah, you know, even with the Clean
Bandit song, I'm I'm not a very confrontational person. I've
never really been. I have been as of late. Um,
(08:15):
but I'm never this for myself. So writing for me
has always been a sort of release when I'm in there.
When I like when I wrote the Clean Bandit song,
I I went in the booth and I just sang
everything that I was feeling in that moment. And after
(08:38):
I finished, after I knew in my brain that it
was complete. It was like going in there with an
inhale and coming out with the next haale. It's very
cathartic and very releasing for me. So so you kind
of get to unburden yourself completely through other people. See
what the funny thing, it's really cool. The funny thing
is is when you write for other people, you get
(08:58):
to have that exhale and even there, I now have
to sing these songs and relive these memories all the time,
hold on. So all right, but that's but that's that's it.
I mean, I I can't tell you how many artists
that I've talked to songwriters who say, you know, you
gotta think a little bit about what you're writing because
(09:19):
you've got to sing that every night you do, and
to kind of get engaged in that, whatever the moment was,
whatever the misery, the trouble, the challenge, the issue, no
pun intended. Um, I know what I'm doing here. Um,
you you literally have to engage with that every night,
(09:43):
every night. But you know, if anything, I relive it yet.
But but then I realized how strong I am for
getting out of it. And you know, each each day
and each month and each year is different and with
that come a different perspective from the song. You know, Um,
(10:04):
what a song means to me? Now could mean something
completely different to me in six months. So you went
through all of this songwriting and and you're writing for
these other artists, and you're, you know, you're you're kind
of getting your stuff out through these other folks, and
then you write this song issues. Yeah, So what happened
when you tried to give that away? Well, actually I
(10:27):
had written that song about a year before it had
I had even decided that I wanted to put it out.
I had written it in a camp for an artist,
and it was a day that my boyfriend and I
at the time had gotten a really horrible fight about
(10:48):
something so stupid, and he just made me feel like
a piece of ship all day. Sorry to the kids
in the audience, UM, I have a horrible mouth. I'm
really trying to keep it together for you guys. You're
doing great. You're doing great. Um and Um. I had
written that song and it was actually cut by a
(11:09):
couple of different people, and it just dawned on me
one day that I didn't want to give that song
to anybody because of the reason why I had written it.
I I've always putting myself into a little bit of
everything that I write, But that was such a personal story,
and I can't tell you the real story unless we're
(11:31):
not a camera than I probably can, but we are
so um you can whisper it to us later. And
so that one really really struck a nerve with me.
And I had met Charlie walk through Hayley Steinfeld. I
was working on the EP with her. We actually her
whole first EP together and Charlie. When Charlie met me,
(11:55):
he walked into the studio and he looked at me
and he pointed at me very sternly, like like your
dad does when you're in trouble. I think I think
you said he gave you the dads. Yeah, he he
really did. And he looked at me and he was like,
you're an artist. And I was like, you're crazy, and
he was like, no, you're an artist. And it was
(12:17):
the first time that anyone had looked at me first
glance and said that to me. And I had never
really had that before. I've never really been much of
a confident person, and I think it took something like
that to sort of hit me over the head and
be like, yeah, I've been suppressing something that I want
(12:38):
because I'm so insecure and self conscious. And then so
Charlie convinces you that that you are an artist? And
then I sent him the song and I said, Charlie,
what do you think of this? And he goes, well,
what do you want me to think of this? And
I was like, well, what do we put it out? Uh?
(12:58):
You know, I don't know. I don't know anything about
the side of things. Um. He was like, yeah, let's
do it. And then it was just it was just
everywhere crazy, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was amazing. Did you
have any sense, no clue, but it was. It was amazing.
And when and when that happened, and it's and people
(13:20):
started to react, Um a sense of self confidence for you?
Did you all of a sudden start to believe that
you were in fact an artist? You know? I convinced
myself every day that I'm good enough. Um that right,
don't we? If anything? If anything? This year, what I've
(13:44):
learned the most is how connecting music is. You know,
being a songwriter, you never really see that. You're never
in the forefront, so you don't see how you influence people.
And we we just performed in France a bol months
ago and it was crazy. It was ten thou people
(14:05):
that don't really speak the same language, and I mean
singing all of the words to issues and it was
just it was amazing. So it's just incredible how how
far music can go and how how much it can
touch people, you know. And but that's that's one of
the things I think that has been has been discussed
(14:26):
about you is that you are very open about who
you are and who what the challenges are around you,
and that people sometimes seem to struggle with that a
little bit, that that they don't get that about you. Well,
I mean, I'm sorry, that's who I am, too bad,
(14:48):
But I'm wondering for you in that, you know, particularly
song like Issues, and there's there's a whole thing about
the construction of the song that that I wanted to
talk about because I think it turns pop music upside down.
But um um, I'll get to that. It's a good thing.
I'll get to that. But the the whole thing about
being very open about your vulnerability and and for you,
(15:12):
is there a power in that? Oh completely? You know,
especially as a woman. I think I think we're always
sort of type cast as the crazy over emotional um type,
you know, And I don't see that as a weakness.
I like I can openly talk about how I feel.
That's amazing. Why is that bad? And I have to
(15:41):
ask you because I think there was there was a
songwriter that you worked with, and I'm going to butcher
her name, Shelly, Shelly Pike in who she she gave
you some advice, Oh, dare to suck exactly, dare to suck.
But that struck me. What did that mean to you? Yeah?
(16:05):
I met Shelley, uh like three or four years ago,
and she said that term to me. When it was
like she was like, Okay, this could be really stupid.
I'm gonna dare to sock here. And I was like,
that is amazing. And I've just kind of kept that
in my brain when I write. And luckily I write
with the same people all the time. Uh so when
(16:25):
I say ridiculous things, they don't look at me like
I'm a crazy person. So dare to stock is basically like,
I'm gonna just say this and this could be insane,
but sometimes the craziest things lead to the best things. Yeah,
and you know, and and it's look, it's obviously your
personal life is very much kind of part of your
your subject matter. And I've read things about you where
(16:48):
where If things are going too well for you, panic
full panic. I love this, I love this. You might
just throw throw a little wrench in the gears, just
to give yourself something to write about. Yeah, I poor kid.
I used to uh yeah, if things were too good,
(17:12):
I guess it was kind of like, what's wrong, something's wrong?
What are you doing? Yeah, I'm too happy, that knows.
I don't want to be too happy here. So so
here's the other thing. And I talked about this, um
the issues. Okay, So the sound of that song to me, okay,
old guy, give you that um. But but listening to
(17:35):
the song to me, it completely subverts the pop sort
of construction. It doesn't have. You know, I'm waiting for
the big chorus with the boom boom boom. Here it comes,
never comes, never happens. And you know what, it makes
it better because I'm anticipating something it doesn't doesn't come.
It kind of makes me tune into it. Tell me
(17:56):
about how you constructed that song. I've never I've never
really been the kind of person to follow trends. And
when Issues came out, that was really big. Uh, that's
sort of big course, big drop situation and I've just
never done anything um normal, you know, I just always
do what I want to do. When we did Issues,
(18:20):
we actually started with the string sound, and I had
issues written down in my notepad and my on my phone.
I never write anything down, so when I had that,
I was like, oh, interesting, And we wrote it in
in about an hour and then basically we wrote it
to that and just like a snap and a kick
(18:40):
and and then that was it. Because I mean, in
the writing and recording of that song, it strikes me
that every time you had the chance to do the
predictable thing, you didn't. And I'm wondering if that was,
if that was if that was really in your mind
as you're going through this. You know, we could go
into the big pre course, we could do the big
or this thing here, we could do the drop whatever,
(19:02):
and you didn't do I'm not that calculated when I write.
I'm all hard when I write, So I don't think
about the algorithm of a song or like, you know,
the mathematics of a song. I just think like this
feels good to me and just kind of go with that.
And you know the other thing about particularly in pop
music and particularly in in your position and I want
(19:24):
to I want to get your opinion about this. You know,
oftentimes labels in particular, we'll want to put you with
every hot producer and kind of you know, create something
for you in a sense. Have you resisted that, Well,
I actually haven't. Haven't experienced that. I think because I've
(19:45):
been a songwriter for so long. Uh, they never they
never tried to push anything on me. I was already
working with some amazing people, uh, and I had been
for a really long time, so they didn't have to
push anything on me or anything like that. Plus I
always tell people to have off like I, I just
don't care. So so after issues, there's another song, uh
(20:09):
huh you know, and you've called that completely genre lists. Yeah,
like it doesn't have a genre. What does that mean?
It kind of has elements of everything, so you can't
really box it and you prefer it that way. Yeah.
I think a lot of music nowadays is becoming general lists.
And look, you've worked with some pretty big pop artists,
(20:32):
whether it's Selena Gomez or Justin Bieber, you know Nick Jonas.
I mean, these are people working in the pop world
for sure, But do you find that um confining? No? Wow? No, No,
not at all. If anything, I mean, pop is the
best place to change music and make trends. How so
(20:52):
for you, well, I mean, you know we can take
from anything. I mean pop. I just feel like pop
is the place where you can just be experimental and
have fun. You work with a guy named Justin Tranter,
So my hero Justin Tranter fans here tonight as they did.
(21:14):
How did you meet him? How did you meet Justin?
I met Justin in a session. Actually, my day to
day at the time put us together in his publisher.
I had been working with the same people a lot,
and I was like, this feels really monotonous, and I'm
just I don't feel creative right now, Like I don't
feel inspired. So my day to day was like, let's
(21:35):
do a week of new sessions and if it works, awesome.
If not, you have your people you can go back to,
no problem. So he was my first session and I
show up. He is in heels and a parachute outfit,
full makeup, just fabulous, and you know I had that
(21:57):
all prepared for you. Shut up sexy, uh, And he
he wanted to write something that was like nineties in vogue,
and I was like that's not please, and I texted.
(22:20):
I texted Alyssa my day to day and I was like,
I can't do I don't like, this isn't my style.
I like, I don't know what I'm doing. And she
was like, shut the hell out do the session. And
I was like okay, and oh my gosh, like it's
a whole story. I almost got beat up by somebody.
(22:41):
It's like we were walking the street. I was like
wearing his full winter coat and nine degree weather because
I have no concept of temperature, and and this woman,
so Justin was like, he was like, why are you
wearing a full winter coat? And I just kind of
flung my arms up like I don't know the this
is what I do. And this woman from across the
(23:03):
street thought that I was being like, come at me.
And so we hear someone talking behind us and we're
just going about our day and we turned around and
she looks at Justin. She's like, looks like, your little
girlfriend here is trying to start problems. And I look
at me. Are you talking about me? Yeah? And so
(23:26):
we were like we were just like okay, I don't
know what just happened. We started we were just laughing
and she's like, yeah, be keep laughing, and I was like,
I'm gonna get beat up. I was like I don't
know what to do, and Justin's like, I got you,
don't don't worry, and we just ran across the street
as fast as By the way, this is Justin, this
(23:47):
is Justin in heels. So it's the real bonding experience
for us. Um and then and then I ended up
hiding in a closet because it was my first session
and I, of course get on believably terrified when I
write with new people. He gave me a title and
I was like, can I just sit in there? And
he's like, you mean the hall closet. It's like, yeah,
(24:12):
yeah there. And I ended up writing like a verse
in the courts to the song and coming out and
he's like, oh, you're psychotic, but it's totally fine. We're
But you guys, I mean, you guys have really found
a groove to together. When when you write we just
celebrated four years together. Thank you, congratulations. Thanks. When you
(24:35):
guys write together, is there a division of labor in
terms of is somebody writing the melody, is somebody writing
the top line? How does that? Yeah? We've we've developed
like a very good technique together. He's good cop, I'm
bad cop. Good to uh So a lot of the time,
like if we're with an artist, and you know, it
(24:56):
doesn't happen all the time, thank god, but sometimes someone
will have an idea or a lyric and it's like and,
um and uh so what we like to do when
it comes to artists, just certain artists or certain moments
I should say. He'll kind of be like hi, and
(25:17):
then I'll be over there like changing everything. So it's
just like full deflection. I'm just like, Okay, don't look
at the man. When it comes to when we write
for for my stuff, um, since we since we started together,
(25:38):
he always has let me write as if I was
the artist, because he's always kind of felt that about me,
and so a lot of the times he'll let me
sort of write the bulk of it, and then if
there's things that I can't fully piece together, he'll come
in and be like, okay, let's but a lot of
(25:59):
the times he'll just fully let me get all my
emotions and all my ideas out of my body and
then we'll kind of fix everything together. Do you guys
work quickly. You don't don't labor over things. No. No,
the day we wrote a huh, we had gone through
I think three ideas that day and we're just like, no,
(26:19):
that's not good. Nope, that's not good. And then we
uh and then we finished that one and we're like, Okay,
this is good. This is so much fun. Do you
get involved with um, you know, kind of sonics and
production in terms of how things Definitely I have a
very easily stimulated mind. I can't write to things that
(26:42):
are that are super intense or fully formed, because then
I can't hear melodies. I need everything in the track
and around me to be very simple. I can't be
in a room with everybody singing melodies at the same time,
or I'm just like I need you should just uh
(27:03):
definitely done that before. So a lot of the times
I just need everything to be very simplistic for me
to write to. And once once you write these things
and you kind of get them buttoned up in the studio,
particularly if they're your songs, then you're going to go
out and perform them. And you've been you've been very upfront,
(27:27):
well uh that you know you got a little you've
got some anxiety issues. Okay, fair enough, But also I
don't I don't know that you were ever absolutely sure
that you wanted to be the artist. It's not that
I wasn't sure. It's just that I've never been confident
enough to allow myself to say it out loud. Did
(27:50):
Charlie help you get there? I think a lot of
people have helped me get there. Um. I mean my manager, Becatisca.
She's been with me for six years and she's always
believed in me. Yeah, you can clap. That's a big clap. Yeah.
And you know, this year, a lot of people have
come into my life. I mean even my band Dan
(28:11):
Cantor who uh he's my guitar player, and Iamdi. I
met him in Nashville earlier this year because I was
just I was trying to find you know, we love
those Nashville guitar players. Come on. He's actually in Canada
and we met in Nashville. He had gone on tour
with a couple of artists and he was really good
(28:32):
friends with someone at Universal and put us in contact.
And he's been with me since the beginning of the
artist transition. And I don't even I don't I can't
even do it without him at this point. He's He's
like my safety net when I performed. So there's a
lot of people in my life, especially this year, that
have that have made me feel comfortable and confident and
(28:55):
and and how are you doing with that? These days?
We were talking upstairs, You're about to go out. I
don't sleep ever, uh, but it's awesome. Like I said,
you know, every day gets easier and easier. So I'm
interested in in the work as a songwriter, transitioning now
(29:18):
to being you know, to being the the artists you
dropped the mini album, You've been out playing a little bit.
What have you learned about yourself as an artist? What
have I learned about myself? I mean, I've always been, uh,
the kind of person that where's my heart on my sleeve.
I've always been sort of unapologetically myself. I'll meet someone,
(29:44):
uh and I'll start crying, and that's just who I am. Uh.
So I don't know if I've really learned anything about
myself as an artist. If anything, it's solidified who I
am as a person. Are there are there other artists
that you look up to as as either songwriters or
(30:06):
performers I've always been super influenced by Pink. She's, yeah,
why what what? What is it? What is it about Pink? Once?
She's a badass. I saw her on the Grammys that
year where she was like flying from the rafters. Get
(30:28):
a fan girl out here for a second. Close. I
saw her perform at Where were We Dan? My Heart Vegas? Okay,
you think the acrobat Okay, she was in this belt
where she wasn't just flipping upside down, she was flipping
like three D and sixty degree Okay. But the best
(30:52):
part she literally like going all the way around the
arena and then at one point they launched her all
the way to the top and then she she flips
down so her head is down and and then just
dives into the crowd and right right above someone's face,
like right here, and I'm my I mean, my jaw
(31:15):
was fully dropped. I might have peed myself. It was.
It was amazing. And she yeah, I mean she did
this thing on the Grammys, and the whole time I'm
looking at it going worst case scenario, Oh my god,
what is it? Was crazy? Dan hadn't closed my jaws,
so she's would you ever do that? Like hanging from
(31:37):
the ceiling. No, leave that to the professionals. Pink. Who
else besides Pink? Who else? Who do you admire? There's
so many people. I love Fiona Apple, I love I
love a lot of artists that are not afraid to
(31:58):
say what they want to say. I love artists that
write their own music. Yeah. I read something that you haven't.
You know, an admiration for Laura Marley. Yeah, Laura Marley. Yes,
Why what is it about? Because she's not as well
known as Pink. Uh the same she's very very much
from her point of view, very much whatever she wants
(32:20):
to do. Uh. And plus her voice is so haunting
and beautiful. And there's one guy, And I have to
ask you about this because you used the baseline from
Psycho Killer in a song called Bad Liar, And you've
talked about your admiration and I admire this guy as well.
And I'm old, um David Byrne. What is it about
(32:43):
David Byrne that inspires you? I mean, sonically, he was
just so ahead of his time. I mean once in
a lifetime and burning down the house. I mean they
there are songs that if they were on the radio now,
they would feel current they're just timeless. So he makes
timeless songs and they're just so unique and just pushed
(33:06):
so many boundaries. It's just it's just awesome. Yeah, of
all the bands that we need a retirement tour talking heads,
I'm just saying, just putting it out there, talking heads
one more time, that would be I don't think it
will ever happen, but I think it would be cool. Um,
you also had you also had you know, a number
of for lack of a better term, mentors. You met
(33:28):
Joline Bell I did when when you were young, who
led you to Lyndy who ultimately, you know, Becca kind
of came into your life to talk about what these
what these women meant to you. You know, I don't
think it's necessary and necessarily has to do with them
being a woman and has to do with their expertise,
(33:50):
which Lyndy is still to this day one of my
favorite songwriters. I mean, she really taught me everything that
I know. You know, I used to think that you
had to go in with a concept and be ready
and just always be on and ready to go. And
when I met her, she's like, how you doing. I'm like, well,
(34:12):
you know, I'm okay, No, no, what's what's happening? Well,
you know this and that and this and that. She's like,
you know, we should write about that, and I was like, oh,
oh okay, cool, yeah, let's do that. Did that kind
of lead you in a kind of down to different
path in terms of thinking about songwriting completely? Yeah. I
(34:33):
think I was always afraid to put myself into things,
um because people wouldn't care. Until I met Linda, And
then I realized that people want to hear what you
have to say. And you know, you realize that you
have so much more in common with people than you
think you do. That's another thing I've learned throughout this process.
(34:54):
So I read something fascinating about you that that there
was there were points over the last few years where
you were right eating something like incredibly prolific, like three
songs a day. Oh my gosh, don't do that well.
I mean the question is the question is where did
did did sleeping and eating? Like? Was that was that
(35:15):
involved as well? I mean what was driving you? So
many things? You guys? So, you know, Justin and I
were doing well. First. First, I was signed to a
publisher when I was nineteen, and when you're nineteen and
you're just starting out, you don't realize that you can
say no to people. So I was just in sessions
(35:37):
all the time. She would put me in everything, and
I didn't realize that I could say no. And that's
actually how how Becca came into play. Lindy was signed
to a company called AM and Becca was a manager there,
and she was like, you need to meet Becca. You
need to meet somebody who's going to stick up for
you and someone that's going to say no for you,
(35:57):
because you clearly don't know how to do it for yourself.
And I met Becca and I showed up in an
Iowa Hawkeye sweatshirt. Um I was born in Davenport, Iowa,
but um raised in l a And I show up
to our meeting in the sweater and she's she's thinking like, oh,
she trying to impress me. Like she's like, why are
(36:19):
you wearing that. I was like, I'm from Damnport. She's like,
I'm from Dubuque and those are favoring towns for the
people that don't know Iowa. And uh, we just we
hit it off instantly. I was like, where's the pen,
Let's do this, you know, And so we've been talking about,
you know, writing with all these big artists and oh wait,
(36:40):
but but wait, okay, so so okay. But then then
I started doing doing more sessions again because Justin and
I had written two songs in night sessions and we
never did. I'm I never do night sessions because I'm
I'm an early person. I like to get up and
(37:02):
start my day and do a twelve to six and
then go home and eat lots of candy and watch
stranger things. Uh So we just never do night sessions.
And it went. We went through a time where we
started to do them because we had written Sorry in
(37:22):
a night session, and then a week later we wrote
a song with this artist Caigo called carry Me in
a night session and we were just like, shoot, do
we now have to just start doing night sessions along
with our day sessions. So then we started doing them
all the time because we were just like, oh my gosh,
just clearly something working here, full paranoia. Don't do that,
(37:44):
you guys, horrible. Um so, all of these sessions and
you're working with these artists and now you've got this
issues is out, the mini album and their hits or whatever.
But this was not overnight. And I think I think
it's Horton. You know, you talk about you know I
got put in this session, I can put that session.
There's a ton of rejection and struggle that comes with this.
(38:09):
Talk a little bit about the early years of this
and and the challenges you faced. You know, I think
I faced. I faced a lot of agism actually doing
this so young. You know, people don't really wanna take
a chance on someone that's new and not experienced. They
(38:31):
don't think that you have anything to say, which, you know,
I'm so grateful for the people that that did do that,
you know, because I wouldn't be here without them. But
I faced a lot of that. But you know, I
never really saw it as as as a disadvantage. I
always saw it as I'm going to prove you guys
all wrong that I can do this. I I know
I can do this, so fair fair warning. Gonna ask
(38:53):
for a couple of questions from the house here in
in a minute. But tell me, tell me because I'm
always interested in this. First time you heard one of
your songs on the radio, where were you the first
time I heard which one? Pick one? The first time
you heard your song, anything you wrote another artist? Whatever? Okay, Well,
the first time, the first time I ever heard one
(39:14):
of my songs that I've written on the radio Wash
Miss Moving on with with Harmony. I was nineteen and
I knew they were going to play it on Kiss FM,
so I was driving around in my car waiting for it,
waiting for it. It was my it was the first song,
and they ended up doing an acoustic version on the
(39:35):
show live, and I had pull my car over and
it was just hysterically crying. Uh. And then it happened
this the same exact thing, well not the same exact thing,
but the same thing happened with issues. I was sitting
in traffic and I was flipping through stations and then
I put on Kiss FM and it was the first
time I had heard it. And my initial reaction was
(39:56):
turned to the person next to me, like, oh my
god on and then I was like, no, it's here.
So I was just sitting in traffic crying, very decided
for myself. That's such a that's such a Los Angeles story.
(40:17):
I've heard this from other from other artists who happened
to be based in Los Angeles. Inevitably, it's in your
car and then they burst out crying. So the next
time you see somebody crying in their car, they could
be the next great songwriter. Um. Okay, so do we
have a question or two from the house? Yes, right right,
I can see anybody right here to thank you for
(40:37):
your word. Thanks you did, Oh my gosh. And then
I wanted to ask how impacted your day to day life? Um,
how's an impacted my life? I mean, thank you so much.
That's so nice, that's so nice. Thank you. Of course
(40:59):
I didn't get one. Okay, it's okay, okay, okay, it's okay, kitty. UM,
if anything, if anything, had showed me how much love
there is out there. UM, I know that sounds super cheesy.
I did, uh this Lincoln Park tribute, um about a
(41:20):
week ago. Yeah. I had written a song with them
called Heavy, and you know it was it was a
celebration of life. And I went out there and I
was jumping and smiling and I was like, you know,
like I'm here for him. And I got a lot
of backlash for doing so. And I was there to
celebrate his life, not more in his death. And you know,
(41:43):
I put a message out on Twitter explaining why I
was doing that. You know, when I met Chester, he
was so fun and outgoing and didn't take himself too seriously,
and I loved that about him, and so I wanted
to just embot that for him. And for every hate
(42:03):
message that I had gotten, I had gotten twenty more
that we're saying. You know, you did great. I love you,
And that was amazing h if so, If anything, it
showed me how how real people are, how supportive people are,
and and how how much love there is. Who else, yes,
(42:23):
right here? My favorite Thanks. This is actually one of
my favorite stories because I'm so crazy. Um uh. So.
I had actually written a couple of times with Ed.
(42:45):
He was kind of working with some new people and
I met him through a producer, Benny Blanco, who I
did issues with, and Ed was doing a camp in
Malibu with all of the people that he works with,
like his core people, and he had asked me to
come and I was like, oh my gosh, yes, I
(43:06):
would love to come. Uh And so I was the
only new person was horrified. It was around the time
that I was going through a lot of anxiety because
I had just written a few songs that had done
really well, and so I was feeling a lot of pressure.
And with that comes a lot of anxiety, and he
(43:26):
had cameras following everybody, and I was we were writing,
I was riding with uh foy Vans and he comes
over with the cameras and my eyes just go and
I slowly backed away and I ran into Benny's room.
I had a full panic attack. He put ice in
(43:49):
my hands, um, and in order to distract my brain
from what was happening, and he kept me in his
room with him for two days. Uh. He was like,
you don't have to go out there, you don't have
to be around cameras. He completely shielded me and protected
me from it because he knew how horrified I was.
And the first day that that happened, I had started
(44:12):
the course of dive the melody, and then I was like,
I'm so beat, I'm so drained just from all of
this anxious energy. I was like I have to leave.
So he drove home and the next day I came
back and ED was like, I love that course. Let's
finish it. And we finished it together. So you know,
anxiety sucks, but sometimes it works out really well. So UM,
(44:36):
So last question, um, and I'm gonna a quote of yours.
I always used the feeling of not being good enough
as my driver to be good enough still the case,
oh always. So you know, I was told a lot
when I was a kid that, um, I couldn't sing
(44:58):
or you know, like a lot of the times in
my family, I was always the songwriter or you know this,
or that, I was never the singer, and that always
bothered me so much. And you know, I'm not the
greatest singer. I don't think that about myself. I I
can write, and I know that I can write, and
(45:18):
I know that I can tell my story and only
I can tell my story. So that drives me. You know,
I want to be good enough for myself so that
other people feel good enough for themselves. That is the
perfect place to put the button on this discussion. Um,
(45:39):
we are so glad that you took the time to
come down here and share a little bit of your story.
So ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Julia Michaels.
Thank you. That was my conversation with Julia Michaels. Such
a bright light her willingness to be open about herself,
(46:01):
and I hope you've got a sense of her growing
self confidence as a writer and artist. You know, no
one comes to songwriting or performing fully formed, and it's
always interesting to listen and watch as artists evolve in
their craft. I'm getting a t shirt made that says
dare to suck words to live by. So that was
your required listening for today. We'll be here twice a
(46:24):
week with new episodes, and if you happen to be
in downtown Los Angeles, please come visit us at the
Grammy Museum. We've got thirty thou square feet of exhibits
and interactive displays that will engage your eyes and your ears.
Go to our website at grammy museum dot org for
all the information. You'll also find a list of our
upcoming public programs. I'd love to keep the conversation going,
(46:46):
so feel free to hit us up on all the
social platforms. Follow us on Twitter at Grammy Museum, send
us your thoughts and comments using hashtag required Listening. Like
us on Facebook at grammy Museum, and follow us on
Instagram at grammy Museum. Finally, thanks to the team that
makes required Listening happen. Jason James, Justin, Joseph Lynn Sheridan,
(47:08):
Jim Kennella Kittrick Kerns, Miranda Moore, Jason Hope, Nick Stump,
and the entire team at how Stuff Works for required listening,
I'm Scott Goldman.
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