July 30, 2025 • 34 mins
Friend of the show Yves Jeffcoat stops by to shine a light on the story of Sylvia Rideoutt Bishop, America's first Black woman horse trainer.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you production if
I heard you, and it is time for another edition
of Female First, which means we are once again joined
by the terrific, the talented Eves.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome Eves.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi always so happy to have you on, and as usual,
you have been up to all kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
What have you been doing? Eaves?
Speaker 4 (00:34):
So I guess we were talking a little bit before
the show started about I got my Wilderness First Responder
certification recently, and I got to spend a little time
in western North Carolina, which I like to go to
in general anyway, a beautiful place. So I got to
(00:54):
spend time there and do something that's not at all
related to what everybody listening knows before, which is writing
and history and podcasting. But if y'all have been listening
long enough, then y'all know that I do love outdoor stuff,
and I care a lot about how we relate to
each other in the outdoors. I care a lot about
(01:15):
black people being in the outdoors and have become more
and more interested in outdoor leadership in recent years, and
also in the ways that I can contribute to community
care as the world changes in so many different ways.
But it's like one of those things where it's like
I can, so I will, Like I know that I am.
I am willing to learn the skills of caring for
(01:42):
people in the wilderness if any emergency situation should happen.
So it's kind of like, Okay, well, if I'm willing to,
there are plenty of other people who aren't willing to,
then I will. And I know those skills are transferable
outside of wilderness context too, So yeah, a lot of
reasoning behind it, but yeah, that was that was definitely
(02:04):
a recent highlight for me.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And we love that about you use always that kind
of drive to learn. It's so important and it's one
of the reasons that I think media like this is
important is that curiosity and sharing that curiosity and this
relates to the person you are talking about today. But
(02:29):
before we get into that, I want to ask you,
have you ever ridden a horse?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Uh? Yes, but it's been like a really, really really
long time so when I was a child. I don't
remember where are when exactly, but I know that I have.
It's like also one of those things where it's like, oh,
they're horse riding, Like there are horse riding places where
you can do to go horse riding, if I'm if there,
(02:54):
if I'm on an excursion, if I'm somewhere, there are
excursions related to horse riding basically, and I usually I
always think about doing them, and I don't do them,
but I would like to some more.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
What about y'all.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I rode a horse.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
When I was nine, and it was at a fair,
and I swear I got chicken pox from it, but
I probably just got chicken pox from the fair. And
then there's a place near where I grew up where
you could ride horses and go on like trails and stuff,
and I did that. I remember it being more painful
than I thought it would be, actually.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
And then some people in my family had.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Horses and I was incredibly jealous, but I never got
to ride write any of them.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
So I'm just thinking, I know I'm not gonna do it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
There's this famous story used where I was blamed for
killing a horse.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I did in the back of my head.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's one of the first things I learned about. Oh,
I was very fascinated.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
But all that to say, I have not ridden horses.
They scare the hell out of me. I'm like, they're
modern day dinosaurs to me, but they are like really
pretty to look at from Afar and I did work
with When I worked with children, it would do volunteer
and making because they were therapy horses and they were wonderful.
So we would come through and clean and have like
lessons and like people like it's one of the best
(04:11):
things to have young kids who get to try new things.
And being around horses with the crew that I had
was not something they did often, so we really were
excited to be able to work with them. So a
lot of people who care and have horses, but I
am actually petrified of horses because to me, they're like
giant animals that could just run me down and it
(04:35):
could exactly, So I'm like, no, thank you, I'm gonna
respect you from way far over here.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
That's smart.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
They sure a lot of horror movies.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
They are like, would I feel like it's something that
maybe later down the road if the apocalypse type of
things happened, I need to learn to ride one, just
in cases. But I'm like, at the same time, like,
but is it worth the cost? Maybe I'll just you know,
lay down and give up after that, Like.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
You know what that is so funny you said that, Samantha,
because I literally was talking to my husband about this
when we were driving somewhere and I when I passed
things and I'm in a romantic mood, like when I'm
when I'm like romance seeing the world, you know what
I mean, when just everything looks imagining, Yeah, everything looks wonderful.
I'm like, I want a horse, And I was thinking
(05:22):
about like how useful that skill would be in apocalypse
because I am I am in the process of like
trying to acquire apocalypse skills, which is another reason this
wilderness first responder thing comes in handy and why learning
to drive stick chef. I'm gotten a lot better at
it now.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I feel like I needed it.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yes, And so horse horses are definitely on the list
because if you look at all the apocalypse stuff, it's like, Okay,
no fuel needed. Horses are around, They're strong, they're plentiful,
and you know, have been helping humans out for a
really long time. But yes, is it worth it? Is
the question, like, there's so many other things for us
to learn in the world, is that one of them?
Speaker 5 (06:01):
And it's a skill I'm always impressed and seeing like
rodeo shows are people who actually just love horses and
really care and put a lot of work into training
themselves and horses. I feel like that's such a skill.
But yeah, I feel like that's something that I have bypassed,
Like it feels like a thing that again with all
the pain, I'm like, I have too many knee problems,
too many back problems to me like this this is
(06:23):
not for me. But I also do am glad that
you are taking all these classes, Eaves, because I now
I'm gonna put you on my team and like this
is how we survived.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yes, she's a part of the cry the ranks.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
First, So who are we talking about today, Eves.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
We're talking about Sylvia ride out Bishop And I think
I was trying to remember when I came across her
because she's been on my list for a really long
time and I just wanted to read the book that's
that exist about her before I brought her, and I
was trying to figure out the right time and what
felt right. Sometimes I'm weird about who I bring ons,
(07:12):
Like I have people on the list forever and I'm
just like waiting for a time that feels right and
now just felt right, But I think it was when
I was like going to a national park in West Virginia.
I was at New River Gorge. I think this was
around that time, and so I was thinking about black
history in West Virginia, and I think that might have
been when I came across Sylvia write out Bishop. But
(07:34):
either way, I'm excited to talk about her today. She
was the first black woman who was licensed to train
racehorses in the United States. And her history. She's from
West Virginia. So should I get started again to our story.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Cool.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
So her parents were Bertha and James Howard ride Out.
They got married in May of nineteen fifteen in Charlestown,
West Virginia. She was seventeen and he was and their
first child, Flora Laine, was born in February of nineteen sixteen.
So James was drafted into the army in October in
nineteen seventeen, and he served as a food service cook
(08:15):
in France. But the war ended and by June of
nineteen nineteen, James had returned back home from France, and
Sylvia was born on October fifth, nineteen twenty in Charlestown,
West Virginia. She was her parents' fourth daughter, not the last.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
They had a lot of kids.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
At first she was named Cora, and later her name
was changed to Sylvia Augusta write Out. Now she had
sixteen siblings, not all of them though lived past their
toddler years, but their family they grew fruits and vegetables
in their backyard.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
They also had hogs.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
And chickens, and they lived in this community called Potato Hill,
which was on the west side of Charlestown. Now, Sylvia's
childhood is interesting, but like not unusual, because when she
was almost two years old, she went to live with
a couple not far away, Lavina and William Payne. They
had a lot of children, but you know, so this
(09:14):
other family helped take care of her. They didn't have
any children themselves, Lavina and William didn't, but still Sylvia
was apparently the only one out of all of her
siblings who was sent to live outside of the house.
And Sylvia said this, She said, my mother was sick
and I was the baby, and the pains were very
good friends, so it seemed like it was a timing situation.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
They were good friends. She would take care of her.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
They had a lot of children, and like it wasn't
unusual for a family with a lot of children to
seek help from outside the family to help them care
for and raise a child. But yeah, so she said
that in this book called Sylvia, Ride Out, Bishop Had
Away with Horses, that's by Vicki Moons, So you can
find a lot of information about Sylvia, Ride Out Bishop,
(10:04):
and about horse racing in general in that book. And
I just wanted to call that out up front because like,
a lot of the information that we'll talk about today
from Sylvia is from that book, and it's a pretty
good resource for her story, but also like horse racing
in general, because as a whole it's its own world,
there's a lot to learn about it. There's a lot
(10:25):
of history in there, and there's a lot of Black
history specifically there too, so that's a good resource. But anyway,
Sylvia was baptized from April first, nineteen twenty three, and
at that time the Pains were listed as sponsors and
as godparents to Sylvia. The Pain family, the way it's
described in the book, really took good care of Sylvia.
(10:46):
She got new clothes a lot, and in the winter,
Sylvia would go back home with her parents and siblings,
while the Pains went to Florida with their employers. So
there were some back and forth. She would go back
to her house with the she would be with the Pains,
and then she would go back to her parents, and
then she would be with the Pain So she went
back and forth. And they didn't live far from each other,
(11:09):
but it was so like they were so close and
they took care of her for so long that Sylvia
even later inherited a home from the Pains. But we'll
talk more about that a little bit later. But yeah,
on Easter Sunday in nineteen twenty nine, kind of this
is part of her origin story with horses, a man
(11:29):
was going from house to house selling a two minute
ride on his pony named Targa, which she never forgot
that pony's name, apparently, and that ride would be ten cents,
and to take a photo that would be an extra quarter.
Please look at the photos in that book. There are
some photos, but there is such a cute photo of
her when she's young and on that horse. But it's
(11:52):
really nice to look at those photos and see how
clearly enthusiastic she was about it at the time. And
she did love that experience. She loved riding the horse,
and she talked about the way it smelled. And it's
funny because apparently the way people smell horses, they smell
(12:12):
them differently, so they have like the way they think
about the smell of horses people who ride them.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's all different.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
But I do like its smells are so often associated
with memories because one of those things. So it's interesting
that she talked about the smells. But yeah, she went
to the Eagle Avenue School, which was also called the
Charlestown District Colored School, and in December of nineteen thirty three,
a racetrack opened in Charlestown. It had twelve stables, forty
(12:42):
four bedding windows, and it had a heated grandstand. And
Sylvia began going to that racetrack. She was watching the trainer,
she was watching the horses, and just after she finished
the eighth grade, she began working at the racetrack. So
she starts attending Store College in Harper's Ferry when she
(13:03):
was a ninth grade student.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Because there were no high schools for.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Black students, and she continued living with the pains, and
like I said, they took care of her, so they
bought her car so she could drive herself to school.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
She was helped.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
She was working in the school kitchen in the lunch
room as well though to help pay her tuition to
the school, and her classmates would sometimes ride with her
to the school and help her pay for gas. But
to earn extra money, Sylvia would walk the horses after
their morning workouts at the track, and during her time
(13:40):
that she worked there, she was learning more about caring
for horses, so she was basically learning on the job.
But after three years at store College she had to leave.
She had to work. She didn't graduate from there, and
Lavinia Payne was sick. But in October of nineteen forty
three she purchased two lots of land from her grandfather,
(14:03):
Charles A.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Snowden.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
The lots weren't that far from her childhood home in
Potato Hill, and a couple of years after that she
married John Bishop at St. Philip's Episcopal Church in Charlestown.
They got a dog, a Dalmatian named Tank and like you, Samantha,
not to call you out. He was afraid of the horses. Yeah,
(14:30):
he liked betting on them. But apparently, according to like
family members' family friends. He was pretty dang unscared of
the horses, but that didn't stop him from being involved
in the business and being married to Sylvia, who was
clearly very involved with horses. But yeah, so in nineteen
(14:54):
forty six, Sylvia sold the two lots that she brought
bought from her grand father, and John was like so,
although he supported Sylvia, he himself was more interested in
the entertainment industry. He would produce musical events, like he
(15:15):
produced one that was at what was previously John Brown's farm,
and he was interested in like the Chitlin circuit. But
in nineteen forty seven, Sylvia and John bought an inn
near Charlestown for four thousand dollars. They didn't pay all
of that upfront. I think it was like two thousand
(15:35):
dollars or so. They paid upfront and then they paid
the rest later. But John had a night club there.
He was involved there at night since Sylvia was doing
all this work during the day. And in July of
nineteen fifty one, Sylvia and John they drove to the
Cumberland Fair in Cumberland, Maryland. The fair had horse races,
(15:56):
and Sylvia's horse booth play won her race by six lengths.
Sylvia won six hundred and twenty five dollars and John
betting Man won fifty seven dollars and eighty cents. But yeah,
they used apparently John was a fan of Buick's. There
were a few Buicks in their story. Sylvia and John
(16:19):
used that money that they wanted to make a down
payment on a nineteen forty nine Buick and in bou
Plays four years of racing and thirty two races, that
was the only time that Boo Play won.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
But not to.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Fret like, there were a lot of other wins in
Sylvia's history and all of the horses that she trained.
But yeah, the bishop's horses Quick News and Wise Bet
they won races in May of nineteen fifty three in
Ohio and they ended up earning the bishops after those
(16:53):
races more money in June on the Ohio circuit. So
there are there, I mean, so many races that Sylvia
did over the course of her career. It would be
like it would take forever to go through all of
them in this episode, So we're not going to do that.
You can go read about more of them if you're
(17:14):
interested in the intricacies of how much they won each time,
where all of the races were, how long the horse's
careers were, a little bit more about the horses, the
people who were the jockeys. All of that stuff is
in the book, but just know that Sylvia was She
was to trained horses for many races for many people
(17:34):
over the years. And at first Sylvia was training horses
under the radars. She didn't have a license, so her
name would not be listed in like the official programs.
Her husband, for instance, would be recorded as the trainer
on the programs, even though he wasn't actually involved with
(17:55):
the day to day operations and training of the horse,
he was still listed as a trainer. And you know,
while he was listed, Sylvia was the one who was
like cleaning the stalls. She would be wrapping the horse's legs,
and she would be up early in the morning training
the horses. But Sylvia got pregnant and on January fifth,
(18:16):
nineteen fifty eight, she was lifting a saddle onto a
horse when her water broke and her daughter, Laverne Augusta
Bishop was born. Sylvia was about thirty seven years old
at the time, and she took like six months off
of racing, and she had help She had a nanny
named Sarah Eliza Jones, who lived with them until she
(18:36):
died in the late nineteen seventies. Although Laverne, I mean,
I don't know she had a lot of siblings. Sylvia
had a lot of siblings, and Laverne her daughter, though
there were her siblings who were also invested in horse
racing too, but Laverne didn't end up having the same
(18:59):
amount of enthusiasm and commitment to horse racing that her
mother did, but still she grew up around horses. But yeah,
in nineteen fifty nine, Sylvia did take the exam to
become a licensed racehorse trainer, and that's where her first
comes in. So people would have to have a state
(19:20):
permit for three years and another racing job before they
could apply, and there was a written and a practical
part of the test. So the written part of the
test would be like you know, talking, you have to
answer questions about how to care for horses, and then
there was a practical where you actually have to work
with a horse. If someone didn't pass the test, they
would have to wait six months to a year to
(19:40):
retake it.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So it was a pretty big deal. But Sylvia did.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Pass her tests and she got her license, and so
she got her first the first black woman licensed to
train racehorses in the United States. So Sylvia did face
racial engender discrimination during her time working as a trainer,
(20:05):
Like in general, it wasn't seen the racetrack wasn't seen
as a place for women, Black women especially, so she
faced like people calling her negative epithets because she was black.
But you know, she she was also working in West Virginia,
(20:25):
so people at larger racetracks didn't always know about Sylvia.
But you know, the way that her family members described
her is like she didn't really she.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Didn't really talk much. She was she was grateful for
what she did.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
She enjoyed her job, and she didn't really like have
a lot to say about those experiences that she dealt with.
But yeah, Sylvia and an attorney who was named Lee
Buschong eventually teamed up to breed racehorses with with Sylvia's
retired mayor, who was named Chalky. Chalky died in nineteen
(21:04):
sixty seven when she was giving birth to her fifth
fall and Sylvia had her own methods of like taking
care of her horses. She seems like she was really
in tune with her horses. So it's described as that
she would even maybe no more than her vets. She
would go to her vets, but she would just be
(21:24):
able to look at a horse and tell them what
was wrong with them without any sort of, you know,
extra investigation. It's like, oh, if you look here, then
you can see this is what's wrong with the horse.
So she fed her horses wheat germ oil that would
help with their making their coats shinier. She would feed
them flax mill which would apparently help them shed their
(21:47):
winter coats. She gave them peppermint candy as a treat.
She would put jello in their feets, which was apparently
helpful for their hooves, and she would also put guinness
in their feet from time to time because it would
encourage them to eat and maybe sweat more. But when
she was training her horses, she was working with them
(22:09):
as individuals, so based on what she would see, based
on what she would observe about their mood and how
they did in their sessions together, that's based that's what
she would base her treatment of them on and her
care for them on. But in nineteen sixty three, she
and John separated and they ended up divorcing in July
(22:30):
of nineteen sixty seven. She said that he went into
the music business and they didn't see eye to eye.
He stayed in the entertainment business, and he did keep
in touch with Laverne, although Sylvia had custody of Laverne.
But Sylvia continued to train horses for many owners. Now,
(22:51):
she did struggle financially. So throughout her story you'll see
like she owe people money. She had trouble paying for things.
She borrowed money to be able to pay for supplies
for her horses. When she would earn things like earn
money from the races, that's when she would go and
buy a pickup truck. And that pickup truck was like
to help her with work, so it would help her
(23:12):
haull things. So there were definitely financial struggles throughout her life.
Like so, horse racing wasn't something that made her like
in really rich during her lifetime, but to make extra money.
In nineteen seventy four, Sylvia did pick up another job
and she was working at a double day publishing factory
(23:33):
in Barryville, Virginia. She still lived at her house in Charlestown,
but she wasn't training at the racetrack. During the time
she was working at that factory, she did end up
getting married to another man named Theodore Wells, although they
divorced in July of nineteen seventy six. So, yeah, she's
working at the factory trying to make extra money. But
(23:55):
she left her job in the factory in nineteen eighty six,
so the whole time she hadn't forgot about working at
the racetrack. She wanted to go back to racing, and
she did that. In eighty seven. She bought a horse
name half Quacked, and that horse won her first race,
but none of the races with Sylvia after that one, unfortunately,
(24:16):
and she still needed more money. So in the nineties
she was renting out rooms in Payning's Hotel, which was
a twenty one or twenty room house that she inherited
from Lavinea Pain and there was a tap room that
was on that bottom floor and the venue was pretty
popular with the black folks in the community. But by
nineteen ninety eight, she was like still struggling with bills.
(24:39):
She had medical bills, she had utility bills, credit card bills,
and she had like close to twenty thousand dollars worth
of unpaid income tax, so she ended up having to
borrow against her home. But she was still racing the horses.
She was still training racehorses, and between eighty seven and
(24:59):
two thousand and she raced three hundred and forty nine
times and she won forty four times, and the horses
that she trained won just over one hundred and sixty
six thousand dollars. But yeah, she was getting older and
in January of nineteen ninety nine she sold her home
(25:19):
for sixty five thousand dollars. She went to move into
the Charles Towers and her family promised to come check
in on her take care of her. But even though
she sold her home, she still had to pay her
mortgage off and there was an income tax lean so
there wasn't a ton of money left over after that,
(25:40):
but she ended up retiring from racing. Then she was
honored though in her lifetime. In two thousand and three,
the West Virginia Legislature honored her as the first licensed
black female thoroughbred horse trainer in the US and West Virginia,
and she's had a plaque.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Dedicated to her.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I think it was last year that there was a
ceremony with the sign put up about her in West Virginia.
But yeah, she woke up sick on Christmas Day in
two thousand and four. She was put in an ambulance, went
to the hospital, and she died a couple of days
later on December twenty seventh, two thousand and four. And
(26:19):
that's the story of Sylvia write up.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Bishop.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I'm really glad you brought this one as always, and
I'm really interested to read this book because it sounds
like this whole world of horse racing is something I
just know nothing about, and I love it. Sounds like
she was so she cared about the horses so much,
(26:52):
and she had this just love that was there from
when she was a child, Like it was just something
she felt. And I always loved to see that when
people we do get to follow that that spark inside them.
It is unfortunate that she wasn't making that much money
from it, but I'm glad that she got to do it.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
She seemed to really love it.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah, she did, and like her, she had a child,
she had grandchildren too that had become invested in horse
racing and horses, and also like her siblings, also were
in horse racings and working with horses too, so you know,
even beyond her legacy was also something her family was
(27:33):
involved in and still is. So it's not like when
she passed away, you know, every all of her legacy
ended with horse racing. It still continued, and you know,
she had stuff named after her and she was put
in halls of in the Hall of Fame in West Virginia.
So yeah, it's it's pretty inspiring still.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
You know, I like that you have details about or
they gave details about the food in the diets of
those horses, like that is so specific that that was
very important to the narrative and the story that she
knew exactly how to care for them, like she was
doing things way in advance that people are talking about.
I'm like, Okay, she knew what she was like, I
(28:14):
gotta do this for the hair, make our glow, make
it pretty. You gotta do this for the guinness. Another highlight,
the jello threw me off from this whole lot.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Well apparently it was you know, gelatine is supposed to
be good for it, so it had something you know,
it was kind of along those lines. I know that
it was like some stuff was had a little bit
more truth to.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
It than other things did.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And there were a lot of things that people were
doing because it was competitive also, so I mean, you know,
I woul didn't really get too much into it. But
the races themselves, you know, they're very competitive.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
People are betting on them.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
There are thousands of people in the grand stand on
the day of the races. You know, even in these
smaller places, people travel for you know, from all these
different cities to come go.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
To the races.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
So there were big events and they were competitive, and
even though they only lasted so long, and it's like
horse race was a super short event, but.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You know it was it was.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
They were dramatic and you know, there was a lot
riding on not to be too on the nose riding
on these races. The stakes are high. So yeah, I
there was a lot that people did to win, as
people do in any competitive sport, like the drugs that
they gave the horses, the drugs that they gave themselves,
(29:37):
you know, the ways they had to lose weight. They
figured out to lose weight in ways that you know
were questionable, some against the rules, to be able to
give themselves the best shot of winning on the day
of But then there was a lot that was obviously
up to chance and look and timing as well, but yeah,
(29:58):
all of that was a part of it. And the
thing that I was thinking about this because I'm not
too well versed in horse racing either, Like it does
seem like one of those things when you're like you're
in it and you have a history of it in
your family, then you know it is uh, you know,
it's something that can be passed down along generations and
(30:20):
that you know, you can kind of inherit. But I
was thinking about how how betting heavy all of this,
this whole industry and sport is. It's like people are
betting on it, but also like as a trainer, as
a jockey, and all of the people who are involved
in horse racing, it's all very like you it's it's
(30:40):
a betting game.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I mean, it's a whole lifestyle.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Like this whole thing would like when think about the
Kentucky Derby and the long tradition says in't it And
it is like even the traditions are going is passed
down from generations and generations, like how you're stressed that
has and it's also like the levels and different levels
of it and I don't know, I know, maybe it's
(31:04):
around maybe the Derby time where I hear a lot
of conspiracies and a lot of like controversies because of
things like the weight and the type of diet and
how a day they get said, Like, I think there's
different like murder stories behind and like grand theft type
of things. You're like, my gosh, this is a whole
culture in itself.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yeah it is. Yeah, it's really fascinating. But like, as
someone who isn't a betting person, like in general, I'm like,
I can't imagine being involved in something that seems so
volatile and turbulent and up to chance, and then on
top of that, a large mammal is involved, so it's
(31:46):
like something you have to take care of that's like
not a standard, you know, you have to you have
to learn everything that goes along with the care of
force is on top of all of that, and that
seems like a lot of work. So definitely I ignowl and
recognize that in Sylvia's story.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yes, and the people who are doing it right caring
for the horses, yes, yes, that is another element to this.
So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Annie, because
obviously there's a lot of you know, kinds of malpractices
and things that are done that you know, I couldn't
tell you how that's changed over time, but I imagine there
(32:23):
have been more safeguards put in place over the years,
like from when Sylvia's first started working to the point
where she died. When it comes to like how care
is managed, how people who are participating in the events,
like the kinds of rules they have to face, when
it comes to how they're like enhancements and you know, drugs.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
And caring for themselves. So yeah, definitely a big part
of this too. Whenever any animal is involved in something
that humans feel strongly about and want to make money
off of, there are going to be problems. Yeah, yes, yes, Well,
thank you again Eves for bringing this story to as
(33:05):
we always love having you on. Where can the good
listeners find you?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Y'all can find me?
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Y'all can just go to my website, which is Eves
Jeffcote dot com, y V E S J E F
F C O A T dot com and you can
pretty much get to everything else from there. You can
sign up for my newsletter. You can also find me
on Instagram at not apologizing and on many many other
episodes of Sminty talking about the accomplishments of women in history.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yes, go check all that out if you haven't already, listeners,
and maybe next time we talk to you Eve's you'll
have some courseback writings.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Gush about that. Don't hold me to it, but you
never know, ya. I'm trying to do something different every day.
I always get inspired by some whiff of something, so.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yes, well, can't wait to hear what it is next
time you're on the meantime. Listeners would like to contact us,
you can or email us Hello at stuff I've Never
Told You dot com. We're also on Blue Sky at
mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff
I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube and we
have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always, Cheris Some producer Christina, executive producer may and.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Or Contrbutter Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Stuff Will Never Told You the subroduction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or where you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you production if
I heard you, and it is time for another edition
of Female First, which means we are once again joined
by the terrific, the talented Eves.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome Eves.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi always so happy to have you on, and as usual,
you have been up to all kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
What have you been doing? Eaves?
Speaker 4 (00:34):
So I guess we were talking a little bit before
the show started about I got my Wilderness First Responder
certification recently, and I got to spend a little time
in western North Carolina, which I like to go to
in general anyway, a beautiful place. So I got to
(00:54):
spend time there and do something that's not at all
related to what everybody listening knows before, which is writing
and history and podcasting. But if y'all have been listening
long enough, then y'all know that I do love outdoor stuff,
and I care a lot about how we relate to
each other in the outdoors. I care a lot about
(01:15):
black people being in the outdoors and have become more
and more interested in outdoor leadership in recent years, and
also in the ways that I can contribute to community
care as the world changes in so many different ways.
But it's like one of those things where it's like
I can, so I will, Like I know that I am.
I am willing to learn the skills of caring for
(01:42):
people in the wilderness if any emergency situation should happen.
So it's kind of like, Okay, well, if I'm willing to,
there are plenty of other people who aren't willing to,
then I will. And I know those skills are transferable
outside of wilderness context too, So yeah, a lot of
reasoning behind it, but yeah, that was that was definitely
(02:04):
a recent highlight for me.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And we love that about you use always that kind
of drive to learn. It's so important and it's one
of the reasons that I think media like this is
important is that curiosity and sharing that curiosity and this
relates to the person you are talking about today. But
(02:29):
before we get into that, I want to ask you,
have you ever ridden a horse?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Uh? Yes, but it's been like a really, really really
long time so when I was a child. I don't
remember where are when exactly, but I know that I have.
It's like also one of those things where it's like, oh,
they're horse riding, Like there are horse riding places where
you can do to go horse riding, if I'm if there,
(02:54):
if I'm on an excursion, if I'm somewhere, there are
excursions related to horse riding basically, and I usually I
always think about doing them, and I don't do them,
but I would like to some more.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
What about y'all.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I rode a horse.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
When I was nine, and it was at a fair,
and I swear I got chicken pox from it, but
I probably just got chicken pox from the fair. And
then there's a place near where I grew up where
you could ride horses and go on like trails and stuff,
and I did that. I remember it being more painful
than I thought it would be, actually.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
And then some people in my family had.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Horses and I was incredibly jealous, but I never got
to ride write any of them.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
So I'm just thinking, I know I'm not gonna do it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
There's this famous story used where I was blamed for
killing a horse.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I did in the back of my head.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's one of the first things I learned about. Oh,
I was very fascinated.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
But all that to say, I have not ridden horses.
They scare the hell out of me. I'm like, they're
modern day dinosaurs to me, but they are like really
pretty to look at from Afar and I did work
with When I worked with children, it would do volunteer
and making because they were therapy horses and they were wonderful.
So we would come through and clean and have like
lessons and like people like it's one of the best
(04:11):
things to have young kids who get to try new things.
And being around horses with the crew that I had
was not something they did often, so we really were
excited to be able to work with them. So a
lot of people who care and have horses, but I
am actually petrified of horses because to me, they're like
giant animals that could just run me down and it
(04:35):
could exactly, So I'm like, no, thank you, I'm gonna
respect you from way far over here.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
That's smart.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
They sure a lot of horror movies.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
They are like, would I feel like it's something that
maybe later down the road if the apocalypse type of
things happened, I need to learn to ride one, just
in cases. But I'm like, at the same time, like,
but is it worth the cost? Maybe I'll just you know,
lay down and give up after that, Like.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
You know what that is so funny you said that, Samantha,
because I literally was talking to my husband about this
when we were driving somewhere and I when I passed
things and I'm in a romantic mood, like when I'm
when I'm like romance seeing the world, you know what
I mean, when just everything looks imagining, Yeah, everything looks wonderful.
I'm like, I want a horse, And I was thinking
(05:22):
about like how useful that skill would be in apocalypse
because I am I am in the process of like
trying to acquire apocalypse skills, which is another reason this
wilderness first responder thing comes in handy and why learning
to drive stick chef. I'm gotten a lot better at
it now.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I feel like I needed it.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yes, And so horse horses are definitely on the list
because if you look at all the apocalypse stuff, it's like, Okay,
no fuel needed. Horses are around, They're strong, they're plentiful,
and you know, have been helping humans out for a
really long time. But yes, is it worth it? Is
the question, like, there's so many other things for us
to learn in the world, is that one of them?
Speaker 5 (06:01):
And it's a skill I'm always impressed and seeing like
rodeo shows are people who actually just love horses and
really care and put a lot of work into training
themselves and horses. I feel like that's such a skill.
But yeah, I feel like that's something that I have bypassed,
Like it feels like a thing that again with all
the pain, I'm like, I have too many knee problems,
too many back problems to me like this this is
(06:23):
not for me. But I also do am glad that
you are taking all these classes, Eaves, because I now
I'm gonna put you on my team and like this
is how we survived.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yes, she's a part of the cry the ranks.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
First, So who are we talking about today, Eves.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
We're talking about Sylvia ride out Bishop And I think
I was trying to remember when I came across her
because she's been on my list for a really long
time and I just wanted to read the book that's
that exist about her before I brought her, and I
was trying to figure out the right time and what
felt right. Sometimes I'm weird about who I bring ons,
(07:12):
Like I have people on the list forever and I'm
just like waiting for a time that feels right and
now just felt right, But I think it was when
I was like going to a national park in West Virginia.
I was at New River Gorge. I think this was
around that time, and so I was thinking about black
history in West Virginia, and I think that might have
been when I came across Sylvia write out Bishop. But
(07:34):
either way, I'm excited to talk about her today. She
was the first black woman who was licensed to train
racehorses in the United States. And her history. She's from
West Virginia. So should I get started again to our story.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Cool.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
So her parents were Bertha and James Howard ride Out.
They got married in May of nineteen fifteen in Charlestown,
West Virginia. She was seventeen and he was and their
first child, Flora Laine, was born in February of nineteen sixteen.
So James was drafted into the army in October in
nineteen seventeen, and he served as a food service cook
(08:15):
in France. But the war ended and by June of
nineteen nineteen, James had returned back home from France, and
Sylvia was born on October fifth, nineteen twenty in Charlestown,
West Virginia. She was her parents' fourth daughter, not the last.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
They had a lot of kids.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
At first she was named Cora, and later her name
was changed to Sylvia Augusta write Out. Now she had
sixteen siblings, not all of them though lived past their
toddler years, but their family they grew fruits and vegetables
in their backyard.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
They also had hogs.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
And chickens, and they lived in this community called Potato Hill,
which was on the west side of Charlestown. Now, Sylvia's
childhood is interesting, but like not unusual, because when she
was almost two years old, she went to live with
a couple not far away, Lavina and William Payne. They
had a lot of children, but you know, so this
(09:14):
other family helped take care of her. They didn't have
any children themselves, Lavina and William didn't, but still Sylvia
was apparently the only one out of all of her
siblings who was sent to live outside of the house.
And Sylvia said this, She said, my mother was sick
and I was the baby, and the pains were very
good friends, so it seemed like it was a timing situation.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
They were good friends. She would take care of her.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
They had a lot of children, and like it wasn't
unusual for a family with a lot of children to
seek help from outside the family to help them care
for and raise a child. But yeah, so she said
that in this book called Sylvia, Ride Out, Bishop Had
Away with Horses, that's by Vicki Moons, So you can
find a lot of information about Sylvia, Ride Out Bishop,
(10:04):
and about horse racing in general in that book. And
I just wanted to call that out up front because like,
a lot of the information that we'll talk about today
from Sylvia is from that book, and it's a pretty
good resource for her story, but also like horse racing
in general, because as a whole it's its own world,
there's a lot to learn about it. There's a lot
(10:25):
of history in there, and there's a lot of Black
history specifically there too, so that's a good resource. But anyway,
Sylvia was baptized from April first, nineteen twenty three, and
at that time the Pains were listed as sponsors and
as godparents to Sylvia. The Pain family, the way it's
described in the book, really took good care of Sylvia.
(10:46):
She got new clothes a lot, and in the winter,
Sylvia would go back home with her parents and siblings,
while the Pains went to Florida with their employers. So
there were some back and forth. She would go back
to her house with the she would be with the Pains,
and then she would go back to her parents, and
then she would be with the Pain So she went
back and forth. And they didn't live far from each other,
(11:09):
but it was so like they were so close and
they took care of her for so long that Sylvia
even later inherited a home from the Pains. But we'll
talk more about that a little bit later. But yeah,
on Easter Sunday in nineteen twenty nine, kind of this
is part of her origin story with horses, a man
(11:29):
was going from house to house selling a two minute
ride on his pony named Targa, which she never forgot
that pony's name, apparently, and that ride would be ten cents,
and to take a photo that would be an extra quarter.
Please look at the photos in that book. There are
some photos, but there is such a cute photo of
her when she's young and on that horse. But it's
(11:52):
really nice to look at those photos and see how
clearly enthusiastic she was about it at the time. And
she did love that experience. She loved riding the horse,
and she talked about the way it smelled. And it's
funny because apparently the way people smell horses, they smell
(12:12):
them differently, so they have like the way they think
about the smell of horses people who ride them.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's all different.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
But I do like its smells are so often associated
with memories because one of those things. So it's interesting
that she talked about the smells. But yeah, she went
to the Eagle Avenue School, which was also called the
Charlestown District Colored School, and in December of nineteen thirty three,
a racetrack opened in Charlestown. It had twelve stables, forty
(12:42):
four bedding windows, and it had a heated grandstand. And
Sylvia began going to that racetrack. She was watching the trainer,
she was watching the horses, and just after she finished
the eighth grade, she began working at the racetrack. So
she starts attending Store College in Harper's Ferry when she
(13:03):
was a ninth grade student.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Because there were no high schools for.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Black students, and she continued living with the pains, and
like I said, they took care of her, so they
bought her car so she could drive herself to school.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
She was helped.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
She was working in the school kitchen in the lunch
room as well though to help pay her tuition to
the school, and her classmates would sometimes ride with her
to the school and help her pay for gas. But
to earn extra money, Sylvia would walk the horses after
their morning workouts at the track, and during her time
(13:40):
that she worked there, she was learning more about caring
for horses, so she was basically learning on the job.
But after three years at store College she had to leave.
She had to work. She didn't graduate from there, and
Lavinia Payne was sick. But in October of nineteen forty
three she purchased two lots of land from her grandfather,
(14:03):
Charles A.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Snowden.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
The lots weren't that far from her childhood home in
Potato Hill, and a couple of years after that she
married John Bishop at St. Philip's Episcopal Church in Charlestown.
They got a dog, a Dalmatian named Tank and like you, Samantha,
not to call you out. He was afraid of the horses. Yeah,
(14:30):
he liked betting on them. But apparently, according to like
family members' family friends. He was pretty dang unscared of
the horses, but that didn't stop him from being involved
in the business and being married to Sylvia, who was
clearly very involved with horses. But yeah, so in nineteen
(14:54):
forty six, Sylvia sold the two lots that she brought
bought from her grand father, and John was like so,
although he supported Sylvia, he himself was more interested in
the entertainment industry. He would produce musical events, like he
(15:15):
produced one that was at what was previously John Brown's farm,
and he was interested in like the Chitlin circuit. But
in nineteen forty seven, Sylvia and John bought an inn
near Charlestown for four thousand dollars. They didn't pay all
of that upfront. I think it was like two thousand
(15:35):
dollars or so. They paid upfront and then they paid
the rest later. But John had a night club there.
He was involved there at night since Sylvia was doing
all this work during the day. And in July of
nineteen fifty one, Sylvia and John they drove to the
Cumberland Fair in Cumberland, Maryland. The fair had horse races,
(15:56):
and Sylvia's horse booth play won her race by six lengths.
Sylvia won six hundred and twenty five dollars and John
betting Man won fifty seven dollars and eighty cents. But yeah,
they used apparently John was a fan of Buick's. There
were a few Buicks in their story. Sylvia and John
(16:19):
used that money that they wanted to make a down
payment on a nineteen forty nine Buick and in bou
Plays four years of racing and thirty two races, that
was the only time that Boo Play won.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
But not to.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Fret like, there were a lot of other wins in
Sylvia's history and all of the horses that she trained.
But yeah, the bishop's horses Quick News and Wise Bet
they won races in May of nineteen fifty three in
Ohio and they ended up earning the bishops after those
(16:53):
races more money in June on the Ohio circuit. So
there are there, I mean, so many races that Sylvia
did over the course of her career. It would be
like it would take forever to go through all of
them in this episode, So we're not going to do that.
You can go read about more of them if you're
(17:14):
interested in the intricacies of how much they won each time,
where all of the races were, how long the horse's
careers were, a little bit more about the horses, the
people who were the jockeys. All of that stuff is
in the book, but just know that Sylvia was She
was to trained horses for many races for many people
(17:34):
over the years. And at first Sylvia was training horses
under the radars. She didn't have a license, so her
name would not be listed in like the official programs.
Her husband, for instance, would be recorded as the trainer
on the programs, even though he wasn't actually involved with
(17:55):
the day to day operations and training of the horse,
he was still listed as a trainer. And you know,
while he was listed, Sylvia was the one who was
like cleaning the stalls. She would be wrapping the horse's legs,
and she would be up early in the morning training
the horses. But Sylvia got pregnant and on January fifth,
(18:16):
nineteen fifty eight, she was lifting a saddle onto a
horse when her water broke and her daughter, Laverne Augusta
Bishop was born. Sylvia was about thirty seven years old
at the time, and she took like six months off
of racing, and she had help She had a nanny
named Sarah Eliza Jones, who lived with them until she
(18:36):
died in the late nineteen seventies. Although Laverne, I mean,
I don't know she had a lot of siblings. Sylvia
had a lot of siblings, and Laverne her daughter, though
there were her siblings who were also invested in horse
racing too, but Laverne didn't end up having the same
(18:59):
amount of enthusiasm and commitment to horse racing that her
mother did, but still she grew up around horses. But yeah,
in nineteen fifty nine, Sylvia did take the exam to
become a licensed racehorse trainer, and that's where her first
comes in. So people would have to have a state
(19:20):
permit for three years and another racing job before they
could apply, and there was a written and a practical
part of the test. So the written part of the
test would be like you know, talking, you have to
answer questions about how to care for horses, and then
there was a practical where you actually have to work
with a horse. If someone didn't pass the test, they
would have to wait six months to a year to
(19:40):
retake it.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So it was a pretty big deal. But Sylvia did.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Pass her tests and she got her license, and so
she got her first the first black woman licensed to
train racehorses in the United States. So Sylvia did face
racial engender discrimination during her time working as a trainer,
(20:05):
Like in general, it wasn't seen the racetrack wasn't seen
as a place for women, Black women especially, so she
faced like people calling her negative epithets because she was black.
But you know, she she was also working in West Virginia,
(20:25):
so people at larger racetracks didn't always know about Sylvia.
But you know, the way that her family members described
her is like she didn't really she.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Didn't really talk much. She was she was grateful for
what she did.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
She enjoyed her job, and she didn't really like have
a lot to say about those experiences that she dealt with.
But yeah, Sylvia and an attorney who was named Lee
Buschong eventually teamed up to breed racehorses with with Sylvia's
retired mayor, who was named Chalky. Chalky died in nineteen
(21:04):
sixty seven when she was giving birth to her fifth
fall and Sylvia had her own methods of like taking
care of her horses. She seems like she was really
in tune with her horses. So it's described as that
she would even maybe no more than her vets. She
would go to her vets, but she would just be
(21:24):
able to look at a horse and tell them what
was wrong with them without any sort of, you know,
extra investigation. It's like, oh, if you look here, then
you can see this is what's wrong with the horse.
So she fed her horses wheat germ oil that would
help with their making their coats shinier. She would feed
them flax mill which would apparently help them shed their
(21:47):
winter coats. She gave them peppermint candy as a treat.
She would put jello in their feets, which was apparently
helpful for their hooves, and she would also put guinness
in their feet from time to time because it would
encourage them to eat and maybe sweat more. But when
she was training her horses, she was working with them
(22:09):
as individuals, so based on what she would see, based
on what she would observe about their mood and how
they did in their sessions together, that's based that's what
she would base her treatment of them on and her
care for them on. But in nineteen sixty three, she
and John separated and they ended up divorcing in July
(22:30):
of nineteen sixty seven. She said that he went into
the music business and they didn't see eye to eye.
He stayed in the entertainment business, and he did keep
in touch with Laverne, although Sylvia had custody of Laverne.
But Sylvia continued to train horses for many owners. Now,
(22:51):
she did struggle financially. So throughout her story you'll see
like she owe people money. She had trouble paying for things.
She borrowed money to be able to pay for supplies
for her horses. When she would earn things like earn
money from the races, that's when she would go and
buy a pickup truck. And that pickup truck was like
to help her with work, so it would help her
(23:12):
haull things. So there were definitely financial struggles throughout her life.
Like so, horse racing wasn't something that made her like
in really rich during her lifetime, but to make extra money.
In nineteen seventy four, Sylvia did pick up another job
and she was working at a double day publishing factory
(23:33):
in Barryville, Virginia. She still lived at her house in Charlestown,
but she wasn't training at the racetrack. During the time
she was working at that factory, she did end up
getting married to another man named Theodore Wells, although they
divorced in July of nineteen seventy six. So, yeah, she's
working at the factory trying to make extra money. But
(23:55):
she left her job in the factory in nineteen eighty six,
so the whole time she hadn't forgot about working at
the racetrack. She wanted to go back to racing, and
she did that. In eighty seven. She bought a horse
name half Quacked, and that horse won her first race,
but none of the races with Sylvia after that one, unfortunately,
(24:16):
and she still needed more money. So in the nineties
she was renting out rooms in Payning's Hotel, which was
a twenty one or twenty room house that she inherited
from Lavinea Pain and there was a tap room that
was on that bottom floor and the venue was pretty
popular with the black folks in the community. But by
nineteen ninety eight, she was like still struggling with bills.
(24:39):
She had medical bills, she had utility bills, credit card bills,
and she had like close to twenty thousand dollars worth
of unpaid income tax, so she ended up having to
borrow against her home. But she was still racing the horses.
She was still training racehorses, and between eighty seven and
(24:59):
two thousand and she raced three hundred and forty nine
times and she won forty four times, and the horses
that she trained won just over one hundred and sixty
six thousand dollars. But yeah, she was getting older and
in January of nineteen ninety nine she sold her home
(25:19):
for sixty five thousand dollars. She went to move into
the Charles Towers and her family promised to come check
in on her take care of her. But even though
she sold her home, she still had to pay her
mortgage off and there was an income tax lean so
there wasn't a ton of money left over after that,
(25:40):
but she ended up retiring from racing. Then she was
honored though in her lifetime. In two thousand and three,
the West Virginia Legislature honored her as the first licensed
black female thoroughbred horse trainer in the US and West Virginia,
and she's had a plaque.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Dedicated to her.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I think it was last year that there was a
ceremony with the sign put up about her in West Virginia.
But yeah, she woke up sick on Christmas Day in
two thousand and four. She was put in an ambulance, went
to the hospital, and she died a couple of days
later on December twenty seventh, two thousand and four. And
(26:19):
that's the story of Sylvia write up.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Bishop.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I'm really glad you brought this one as always, and
I'm really interested to read this book because it sounds
like this whole world of horse racing is something I
just know nothing about, and I love it. Sounds like
she was so she cared about the horses so much,
(26:52):
and she had this just love that was there from
when she was a child, Like it was just something
she felt. And I always loved to see that when
people we do get to follow that that spark inside them.
It is unfortunate that she wasn't making that much money
from it, but I'm glad that she got to do it.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
She seemed to really love it.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah, she did, and like her, she had a child,
she had grandchildren too that had become invested in horse
racing and horses, and also like her siblings, also were
in horse racings and working with horses too, so you know,
even beyond her legacy was also something her family was
(27:33):
involved in and still is. So it's not like when
she passed away, you know, every all of her legacy
ended with horse racing. It still continued, and you know,
she had stuff named after her and she was put
in halls of in the Hall of Fame in West Virginia.
So yeah, it's it's pretty inspiring still.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
You know, I like that you have details about or
they gave details about the food in the diets of
those horses, like that is so specific that that was
very important to the narrative and the story that she
knew exactly how to care for them, like she was
doing things way in advance that people are talking about.
I'm like, Okay, she knew what she was like, I
(28:14):
gotta do this for the hair, make our glow, make
it pretty. You gotta do this for the guinness. Another highlight,
the jello threw me off from this whole lot.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Well apparently it was you know, gelatine is supposed to
be good for it, so it had something you know,
it was kind of along those lines. I know that
it was like some stuff was had a little bit
more truth to.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
It than other things did.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And there were a lot of things that people were
doing because it was competitive also, so I mean, you know,
I woul didn't really get too much into it. But
the races themselves, you know, they're very competitive.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
People are betting on them.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
There are thousands of people in the grand stand on
the day of the races. You know, even in these
smaller places, people travel for you know, from all these
different cities to come go.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
To the races.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
So there were big events and they were competitive, and
even though they only lasted so long, and it's like
horse race was a super short event, but.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You know it was it was.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
They were dramatic and you know, there was a lot
riding on not to be too on the nose riding
on these races. The stakes are high. So yeah, I
there was a lot that people did to win, as
people do in any competitive sport, like the drugs that
they gave the horses, the drugs that they gave themselves,
(29:37):
you know, the ways they had to lose weight. They
figured out to lose weight in ways that you know
were questionable, some against the rules, to be able to
give themselves the best shot of winning on the day
of But then there was a lot that was obviously
up to chance and look and timing as well, but yeah,
(29:58):
all of that was a part of it. And the
thing that I was thinking about this because I'm not
too well versed in horse racing either, Like it does
seem like one of those things when you're like you're
in it and you have a history of it in
your family, then you know it is uh, you know,
it's something that can be passed down along generations and
(30:20):
that you know, you can kind of inherit. But I
was thinking about how how betting heavy all of this,
this whole industry and sport is. It's like people are
betting on it, but also like as a trainer, as
a jockey, and all of the people who are involved
in horse racing, it's all very like you it's it's
(30:40):
a betting game.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I mean, it's a whole lifestyle.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Like this whole thing would like when think about the
Kentucky Derby and the long tradition says in't it And
it is like even the traditions are going is passed
down from generations and generations, like how you're stressed that
has and it's also like the levels and different levels
of it and I don't know, I know, maybe it's
(31:04):
around maybe the Derby time where I hear a lot
of conspiracies and a lot of like controversies because of
things like the weight and the type of diet and
how a day they get said, Like, I think there's
different like murder stories behind and like grand theft type
of things. You're like, my gosh, this is a whole
culture in itself.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yeah it is. Yeah, it's really fascinating. But like, as
someone who isn't a betting person, like in general, I'm like,
I can't imagine being involved in something that seems so
volatile and turbulent and up to chance, and then on
top of that, a large mammal is involved, so it's
(31:46):
like something you have to take care of that's like
not a standard, you know, you have to you have
to learn everything that goes along with the care of
force is on top of all of that, and that
seems like a lot of work. So definitely I ignowl and
recognize that in Sylvia's story.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yes, and the people who are doing it right caring
for the horses, yes, yes, that is another element to this.
So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Annie, because
obviously there's a lot of you know, kinds of malpractices
and things that are done that you know, I couldn't
tell you how that's changed over time, but I imagine there
(32:23):
have been more safeguards put in place over the years,
like from when Sylvia's first started working to the point
where she died. When it comes to like how care
is managed, how people who are participating in the events,
like the kinds of rules they have to face, when
it comes to how they're like enhancements and you know, drugs.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
And caring for themselves. So yeah, definitely a big part
of this too. Whenever any animal is involved in something
that humans feel strongly about and want to make money
off of, there are going to be problems. Yeah, yes, yes, Well,
thank you again Eves for bringing this story to as
(33:05):
we always love having you on. Where can the good
listeners find you?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Y'all can find me?
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Y'all can just go to my website, which is Eves
Jeffcote dot com, y V E S J E F
F C O A T dot com and you can
pretty much get to everything else from there. You can
sign up for my newsletter. You can also find me
on Instagram at not apologizing and on many many other
episodes of Sminty talking about the accomplishments of women in history.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yes, go check all that out if you haven't already, listeners,
and maybe next time we talk to you Eve's you'll
have some courseback writings.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Gush about that. Don't hold me to it, but you
never know, ya. I'm trying to do something different every day.
I always get inspired by some whiff of something, so.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yes, well, can't wait to hear what it is next
time you're on the meantime. Listeners would like to contact us,
you can or email us Hello at stuff I've Never
Told You dot com. We're also on Blue Sky at
mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff
I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube and we
have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always, Cheris Some producer Christina, executive producer may and.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Or Contrbutter Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Stuff Will Never Told You the subroduction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or where you listen
to your favorite shows.
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