June 14, 2025 • 44 mins
In this classic episode, Bridget joins us once again to discuss the overlooked contributions Lynn Conway made to the tech world, and how transphobia almost erased them.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff
when never told you a prediction, I heard you, And
today we are bringing back an episode we did Bridget,
which we always love bringing back. Sometimes it's tricky because
(00:26):
she always does such timely stuff, but it's always still
relevant in a way that is both upsetting and sometimes like,
oh we still need to be talking about this. But
as we're moving into Pride months, I thought we would
bring back this one about Lynn Conway and all of
(00:46):
the contributions that lin Kwanway had to the tech to
the tech environment that almost got erased. So yeah, please enjoy. Hey,
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stefan Never
Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled
(01:16):
to once again be joined by the fabulous Bridget Todd
coworker and friend. Yes, first recording session of the new year.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh that's right, happy, first recording of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes, how how is your your weirdo? Christmas? How is
your new year? Bridget?
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Weirdo? Christmas? Was super fun? Thank you for asking.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It involved all the staples I hoped it had drunkenness,
crazy outfits, Yes, fire pits, dancing, but then sadly, right
after that, I got COVID. Oh Dan, I know, I
am recovering from COVID, which it was not how I
plan to spend the latter part of the holiday. So
(01:57):
my New Year's was just really spent sweating and moaning,
not for any kind of fun.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Reason, because I was in discomfort.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
That turns so quickly, Wow, well, I'm glad you're okay.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
How are you feeling today?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Much better?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I mean, I unfortunately I got COVID before I was
able to be boosted.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
And so if.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Anyone is listening and they are like, I'll take in
their sweet time to get their booster shot, don't do that.
My partner also got COVID, and he is he was
boosted and recovered so much quicker than me.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
So I'm feeling a lot better, but.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It really does linger, like don't let anybody tell you
that omicron is like, oh, it's very mild, Like that
might mean you don't need to go to the hospital,
but it definitely like lingers and you feel like garbage
for quite.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
A while, right, I mean, that's the report I've been hearing,
is like everybody's saying it was a mild case, but
that doesn't necessarily mean you're not affected or asymptomatic. Literally,
you're just not at the hospital and you may have
the one hundred and four fever all the problems, and
it may last longer than the flu. But yeah, it
sounds like being boosted is the way to go.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
So sorry, Bridget, Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean it could have been a lot worse, and
I'm happy to be on the men. But yeah, it
was a good excuse to stay in bed and watch
a binge watch shows.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
So I was talk you about that nice.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Well, yeah, it's funny because Samantha and I it was
like right before almicron, like we you know, heard about it,
but it was before everyone was like, oh my god,
it's everywhere. We went to the movies and we saw
The Matrix and Spider Man.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
We did Double Feature.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And I after that the news came out everyone had amochron,
and I was convinced I had it, even though I
had no proof, like there was no symptoms or anything.
But I essentially stayed in on New Year's as if
I have COVID, I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I'm gonna see anybody. And it was actually very lovely.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
It was nice, right, I mean to the point that
I think for introverts like myself is now just like okay,
well I might have COVID, so I can't I can't
go so sorry, I.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Might have it.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I don't know, such a good, ready made excuse, like
I might have COVID.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I'm worried about COVID. Thinking about COVID, like it's.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Such a good excuse to not have to do things
you don't really want to do.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Yeah, I'm like, this is how I live in my
comfy forever. I keep mentioning comfies and I know they
are not a sponsor. They need to be a sponsor
at this point because I'm always cold, and I'm looking
at you, Bridget, because you're actually in sleeveless and I'm like,
oh my god, and it's sunny where you're sitting as
where we are in the darkness and depths of despair, apparently.
Speaker 6 (04:44):
In my comfy.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
But I'm like, wow, this is a drastic difference between
us and you.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So I am like the other side of the coin,
which is that I live in an old apartment and
we have old school like radiator heat that we're not
really able to control right, uncomfortably warm in the window
open even though there is snow on the ground.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, that is very, very different.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
We got like a hint of snow in Atlanta and.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Cranking up my radiator.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I also have a radiator that I it's tricky to control,
but I think I got it figured out. You open
the one in the bathroom halfway and you're gonna be fined.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Everybody who has radiator heet like you have.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You have like a weird mechanism of like you gotta
do this, gotta do that, a window like it's it's
a delicate art.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
When I first moved in here, I was like, I
asked my landlord what is that?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
And he looked at me. He said, it's a radiator.
You're gonna have to figure that out. Like oh okay,
oh yes, well okay.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Now that we've checked in Bridget, I am so excited
with the topic you bought today because I didn't know
this story and it's an amazing story. So can you
tell us what we're going to be talking about today?
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Yes, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
You know one of my favorite things in the world
that's really talking about overlooked figures in history. The history
of technology and the Internet, of which there are many,
and I feel like they can really tell us a
lot about how our identities often determined who gets remembered
and who gets overlooked, even when someone is responsible for
pretty much changing the world, like the person that we're
(06:20):
going to be discussing today, Lynn Conway. Linn Conway is
an amazing historical figure. She's still alive, but she essentially
changed the world. She is the reason why we have
things like personal computers, smartphones, tablets, iPads, all of that,
and yet her story almost went overlooked because of transphobia.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Right, Yeah, And it is quite the story and quite
the journey and still still alive today, So that's awesome.
Still making changes also awesome. But can we get into
some of the early history here?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yes, so, Linn.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
She was born in nineteen thirty eight and was assigned
mail at birth, but from an early age she knew
there was more to her story as it pertained to
her gender. Her mom was studying anthropology at Columbia, and
she would flip through her mom's school textbooks sort of
looking for any kind of answers or perspectives that spoke
to how she knew she was feeling. And there's a
really lovely profile of Lynn Conway in Michigan Engineering News,
(07:24):
so definitely check that out. But in that profile, she says,
it seemed like people in other cultures had found different
ways to.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Deal with what I knew I was feeling. But then
that became scrambled.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
But the thought that what I was feeling was that
I was gay, but no one ever talked about these things.
When Conway was fourteen, she read a news story about
the former Army private Christine Jorgensen, who was the first
person in the United States to publicly announce a gender transition,
and that really changed everything for Lynn Conway.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
She said, from reading that story, she knew what she.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Needed to do, Like she realized, like, I am going
through the same thing, and this is what I want
to do, And it really set her out on this
journey to discover her identity.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
Wow, I really couldn't imagine in that day and time
being in that place like its difficult as it is
today in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 6 (08:13):
Oh my god, I just said, the year.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
Twenty twenty two of being a part of the queer
community in general, even no matter what I just you know,
not to put too much of my personal life out there.
I just had a big discussion with my parents about
acceptance of the queer community point blank, not not anything
outside of not me coming out, just what it was.
And it was a little bit combative from my parents,
(08:35):
that just them trying to accept the queer community in
general and talking about what that is in relation to
their conservative ideas. So I can't imagine if those are
the hard conversations we're having today, I can't imagine what
it would have been like back then. So what was
her coming of age story like or what was it
(08:55):
that we need to know about because I can't again,
like my heart just like it is pounding the idea
of what she went through.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Yeah, it's that's such a good point.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And when I was putting together this outline of her
of her life, that was something that I kept getting
struck by the ways in which we have come so
far as a society in terms of accepting but also
the ways in which we have a lot further to
go as in terms of sort of accepting and supporting
folks who are on a journey right and so Conway
(09:24):
initially tried to transition while she was studying MIT in
the fifties, and so she basically started taking hormones that
she had procured.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
On her own.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And then she talked to a friend who was in
medical school to see if you could help her connect
to a doctor who might be able to help her,
and this friend ended up taking her to a dean
at the college, and that dean told her that she
did not stop taking these hormones on her own, that
she would end up at a mental institution. And this
fear of being institutionalized and also arrested is something that
(09:51):
really marked Lynn Conway's life, you know back then. You know,
if you were if you were to you know, transition
or come out as trends in a lot of places,
you could just be outright arrested. But also the threat
of being institutionalized in a mental institution, and you know,
it's again, it's one of those things that it makes
me so sad that even today there are people that
(10:13):
equate being trans with being mentally ill or being a criminal.
Like it's one of those things that obviously it was
so salient to Lynn Conway back in the fifties, but
it's not like we've unfortunately, it's not like we have
completely moved beyond that, because there are certainly still people
out there today who believe, oh, if you're trans, you
belong in prison, you belong in an institution.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
You know, you're not quote unquote normal.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And yeah, it is one of those ways that makes me,
on the one hand, marvel at how far we've come,
but also lament that we have so much.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Further to go.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I mean, just all of the laws we've seen pass,
the anti trans laws, it's just ongoing, and it's this
constant onslaught and you know, it's targeting in a lot
of cases young young children, like people in schools, and
it's so damaging and so toxic. And I can imagine
(11:11):
for Conway this that fear and being told by the
Dean like this was a legitimate fear was a huge setback.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I mean Lynn Knaway talks about her time at MIT
as like fairly traumatic after this really disappointing turn of
events when she was trying to transition. Initially, she kind
of just put transitioning at the back of her mind.
She got married, she became a parent, she started working
at IBM. At this time in Lynn's life, she from
the outside seemed to kind of have a picture of
(11:44):
perfect life. She was making major moves and innovations at IBM,
which at the time was the seventh largest corporation in
the whole world. And while she was working at IBM,
by all accounts, she was kicking ass. You know, she
invented a hardware protocol that enabled the out of order
command processing most computers still rely on today. But all
of this, all of this, these accomplishments, and all of
(12:06):
this like fantastic domestic life that she that she seemed
to be living, was put into jeopardy because of transphobia,
and that transphobia would really alter the trajectory of her life.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
I can't imagine a person who has that much stress
in their lives and that much conflict being able to, like,
what would she have really accomplished if she was able
to be fully accepted as who she was at that
point in time. And you know, and the other thought is,
like her friend really betrayed her. I can't imagine tried
(12:52):
ever coming out again, or even questioning again, or even
saying anything out loud because the person that she trusted
literally ranted her out in order to have this agenda
pushed against her, saying, nah, you better stay in the
norm aka what we think is normal, or you are
going to be criminalized essentially for who you are. And
(13:15):
I'm just like, ah, everything, Uh.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, That's something that I think about a lot when
it comes to things like transphobia. You know how much
brilliance does the world miss out on because of transphobia?
Glenn Conway accomplished a lot, but could she accomplish so
much more if she wasn't putting up with this? And
so I think about trans folks today, you know, the
kinds of like ridiculous legislation that they have to spend
(13:41):
their time combating, the kinds of ridiculous myths and stereotypes
and misinformation about who they are and their identities. If
they didn't have to spend their time countering that kind
of nonsense, what could they be accomplishing? And so I
always wonder, not only is it completely unfair unacceptable that
trans folks have to put up with that, but we
all miss out, like we all miss out on contributions
(14:03):
that can make our lives better or we're interesting or
more creative. When marginalized people are saddled with these kinds
of you know, this kind of nonsense like an onslaught
of laws and misinformation about who they.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Are, right, Yeah, I feel like that we talk about
that a lot on here and all the things that,
you know, the stories that aren't even being told, and
then that impacts what people think or who people think
are doing in technology or stinfield in general, who are
making these these big moves and you know, still using
(14:37):
this technology.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
That's we don't know. We don't know about her and.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Conway, even though she kind of put this transitioning on
the back burner and never really left her mind, right.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So eventually she learned about the pioneering gender transition work
of doctor Harry Benjamin. He was a famous indochronologist and
sexologist who was really known for his clinical work with
trans folks. And she decided, I want to work with
this doctor. This is the doctor who is going to
help me. And this is something that I find so heartbreaking.
That was in that Michigan engineering profile I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
It sounds like Conway and her then.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Spouse had really worked out like a solid plan of
the logistics of how this transition was going to work
for their family. They decided they were going to get
a divorce, and that Conway would start working with doctor
Benjamin to transition, and that she was going to pay
child support from this IBM salary that she'd had, and
they decided that she was going to stay in the
lives of their children and that the children would call
(15:38):
her aunt, right, And so it sounds like as a
family unit, they had really ironed out how.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
This was going to work.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And according to another really compelling piece I read in
Forbes by Jeremy Alessandre, Conway's immediate family and IBM, like
her coworkers of IBM were actually pretty accepting and supportive
of her desire to transition at first, like even know
this was you know, the fifties, the sixties, Like they
were kind of okay with that, and my, we're supporting
(16:06):
this choice. However, when IBM's corporate medical director learned that
Conwy was planning to transition in nineteen sixty eight, he
told CEO Thomas J. Watson Junior, who fired Conway to
avoid the public embarrassment of employing a trans woman, and
so all of this work that Conway had done with
her then spouse to iron out the logistics of how
(16:27):
this was going to work, you know, was basically pulled
from under her. And this really like it sounds like
this was like a completely destabilizing thing in her life.
Speaker 6 (16:37):
Oh god, I mean yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
If you think you have a plan and you're excited
about at least having forward steps and then having something
that is so traumatic that once again is portraying you
essentially something that you were so excited about and not
even excited about just trying to live your life as.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
You truly are.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
I can't imagine how this would have just deflated you.
I've been without a job, I've been fired, and that
sense of self is gone and self worth feels like
it's just a loss of yourself. So someone who can't
even express themselves losing even more of themselves. Holy crap.
And I can't on top of that like this again, y'all.
My Christmas was a doozy. But this again kind of
(17:23):
goes back to my conversation with my parents. Are like,
this is why these laws are important, This is why
anti discrimination laws need to be in place. And when
we talk about tugging at the strings, which is what
is happening under the Supreme Court, which is what we're
talking about every day, still these are things like this
can happen, and it truly I can't imagine what the
(17:44):
impact was for her to be fired during the middle
of a thing that she thought she could maybe finally
find herself.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, it's so sad.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It really seems like it started like a downward spiral
in her life. You know, she had to divorce her
else while losing her sole source of income, which you know, obviously,
as you just described, like makes it that much more
difficult when you your source of income is gone, your
identity that was attached to having this like pretty big
deal job being not just being taken from you in
(18:14):
this way, but like your contributions. You know, she was
someone who kicked ass, who really made a lot of contributions,
and being fired like this like meeting those contributions and
all of that work just sort of going overlooked because
of transphobia. And so it really sounds like this like
was a really dark time for her. The California Social
Services tried to keep her away from her kids, and
(18:36):
Conway's then expouse decided that she could not have any
contact with them because she was worried that if Conway
was in her kid's life that they would be taken
by the state. And at the time her kids were
just babies. They were two and four years old, And
this sounds like something that really stuck with Conway. In
this profile, she recalls that tore me up. Let me
tell you, the hardest part about the whole thing was
(18:56):
that I really felt.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Like a mom to them.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And again, just what a domino effect, A negative domino effect,
being fired for being trans caused in her life, losing
her income, losing that identity, breaking up her family, and
she you know, she knew this was going to be
a really tough process, and she relied on her lessons
that she had learned from this lifetime love of outdoor
(19:19):
adventures like canoeing and rock climbing to steady herself. She
described it, Now, I had a plan to get across
the river, she said. I could see the steps I
had to make. I could see the dangers and how
to protect against them. The only problem was I didn't
know where I'd end up on the other side.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
So even though this.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Had cost her her job, her family, her domestic life,
she still continued to work with doctor Benjamin to transition right.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
And there were so many as that quote described challenges
and obstacles beyond what.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
We've already talked about.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Which is already a lot so so much so, can
you talk about some of the challenges that were that
Conway faced around this transition?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Absolutely so, as a lot of trans folks will probably
tell you some of the logistics around transition, you know,
things like changing your name, getting new identification and paperwork
is going to be a big part of navigating trans
identity so that you can work and earn an income
and have a bank account and get a place to live.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Even today, this process.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Is really complicated and sometimes like prohibitively expensive, and again
I'm sad to say that not a lot you know,
was hard back then, and unfortunately it's hard today. Unfortunately
a lot of trans folks don't have the support or
resources they need to navigate it. According to the National
Transgender Discrimination Survey, only one fifth of trans people who
have transitioned have been able to update all of their
(20:43):
IDs and records with their new gender, and one third
have not been able to update any of their IDs
or records. Luckily, for Conway, she was able to use
connections that doctor Benjamin had in Oakland, California to get
it done quickly, which, as you might imagine, was really
really important to avoid suspicion back then, because you know,
it could easily turn unsafe if somebody suspected, you know,
(21:06):
that you were transitioning or that you were trans and
so being able to navigate this quickly was of the
utmost importance for her. She has this quote, she says,
you were an undocumented alien from Mars.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
You don't have a birth certificate. How are you going
to get a job? This was the sixties.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
You can think of it like being a spy in
a foreign country. If you were found out, you'd be
dealt with immediately, if not by the police, then by
people on the streets. And so it's probably clear that
why after actually going through this transition, Conway started the
period of her life which she refers to as her
the stealth phase of her career.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Okay, so this entire thing feels like it should be
a giant movie, right, It should be a feature movie somehow,
whether it's like coming of age and or just overall like, yeah,
it could be like a spy movie in the industry,
but it's not not.
Speaker 6 (21:53):
I'm just saying that from her quote in itself.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
But it's an amazing account of all of the things
that she has gone through. I feel like, hello, actors,
this is an Oscar level of performers if you can
get it, and it should be done by a trainswoman obviously.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yes, could you talk about it and watch this?
Speaker 5 (22:12):
I want to see this. Can you talk about this
stealth based? Because yeah, I'm really into the movie now.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
So in nineteen sixty nine, Conway changed her name, hit
her gender identity, and started looking for work and computing. Eventually,
she found a job as a contract programmer, which is
like pretty entry level, but because she is like a
bad ass, she pretty quickly moved up. She later worked
at MEMORYS and then landed what I'm calling.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
The big account.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
You know in movies when someone's like, oh he got
the big account, Like this was Conway's like her big
account working at Xerox's Palo Alto research center, which is
a huge, huge deal. And again, because she is a badass,
she immediately started like kicking ass, just like she had
before at IBM before getting fired.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
Is that a Silicon city? In making that up? Is
that the beginning is that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I think that's like that, like the Silicon Valley area. Yeah,
Like that was like where so many of the technological
innovations that like we still have today that really shaped
like where computers and technology and smartphones ended up going.
So much of that research happened right there. So like
the big account.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
So she literally was at the beginning of what is
known as one of the biggest technological industrial times of
our age. Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And again like that alone, even if
like like I find her story so fascinating and inspiring,
but like that alone is a huge deal, right, Like
we haven't even gotten into some of the other parts
of her life, But that alone, being a trans woman
at the forefront and the preceidice of all of these
things that would go on to revolutionize all of our
(23:49):
lives is so.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Interesting to me. Like that alone would be a huge accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yes, and speaking of there were many other accomplishments that
she was taking part in during this time, right.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
So I have to give a little bit of a
caveat that, Like, I am not an engineer, so engineers
who are listening don't come after me if I say
the wrong thing. I'm summarizing. I am a non hard
tech person summarizing someone who was like one of the
most brilliant tech.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Minds on the planet.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Give me some just know that.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeh.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So her work completely revolutionized how microchips were designed, and
she sometimes called the Hidden Hands, like that's her nickname
for this work and how it led to the tech
revolution in the eighties and nineties, and again it's like
a big part of the reason why we have smartphones
and personal computers. But even while she was accomplishing all
of these important innovations, she really couldn't own them because
of her identity. Again, she says that she was working
(24:47):
in sort of stealth mode where she was just kind
of purposely staying behind the scenes despite creating these innovations
that would literally go on to change the world. And
during this time, her trans identity was not public knowledge.
She only told close friends or like hr people or
people who were needed to like do her security clearance,
and she purposely made herself scarce and stayed behind the scenes,
(25:07):
you know, hence the nickname the Hidden Hand. But that
meant all of her accomplishments and innovations they also stayed
behind the scenes too. And you know, it's one of
those things where this is not like you know, people
are like, oh, women's history is all of our history,
or black history is all of our history, or trans
history is all of our history.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
This is you know, everybody uses a computer.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Or a smartphone for the most part, and like, transphobia
almost kept us from having a full accounting of this
history that shaped all of our lives, right, like Lynn
Conway touched like her work touched all of us, and
we almost did not get a full accounting of it
because of the harmful legacy of transphobia and transphobic systems. O.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Wait, can we first say that The Hidden Hand is
the title of the movie?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
That's right?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
If there are any like movie like The Hidden Hand?
Speaker 5 (26:12):
Perfect Maybe I've been watching Way to Meet martial arts film,
but I'm like, wait, wait, wait, this is like Asian
level of martial arts stealth movie. I don't know what's happening,
but I'm seeing it. Maybe just needs to be transformed
into that. I don't know, but yeah, I hate that.
This is once again, when we talk about women in history,
(26:35):
especially women in marginalized communities, how they literally have to
shrink in order to accomplish what they have to do
quote unquote to live what they need to do and
be who they need to be, to shrink and disappear
into the background so they don't make.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
Too much noise.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
And that is what has been taught for so long,
and this is one of the prime examples for so many,
especially again within the queer community. Yeah, within like women
in colors, especially black women, being told, yeah, you can
do it, but you don't be loud about it, because
then you're just going to cost too much of a
ruckus and your personal life.
Speaker 6 (27:10):
You just being you will be a distraction.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
And I'm enraged right now just thinking about it as
I continue on, because this is such a pattern with
our society and the misogynistic idea overall, that this is
how it should have been, and this is how everybody
accepted it and was okay with it. And I'm reading
all the things that you put in here, and I'm like, wow, wow, wow, Like,
how how.
Speaker 6 (27:35):
Do you keep going?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
How do you continue to persevere and create these amazing
things when there's so much against you, when you're being
continually told don't exist point blank.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I mean, it's it's enraging. And it's like, you know,
you were talking about these conversations you were having over
the holidays with your family. I think for a lot
of people it's exactly what you said. It's I don't
hate queer people, I don't hate trans people. I just
don't want to. I don't want to think I have
to think about them. I don't want them to take
up too much space, like this idea that you know.
(28:08):
I remember having similar conversations with my family where they
would be like, well, I just don't want to shove
them my face, and it's like, no one's shoving it
in like like for for some people, just existing is
shoving it in your face, right, just like taking up
space and being yourself is equated with, like quote, shoving.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
It in someone's face. And so I agree.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
I think that it's such a pattern where women, queer folks,
trans folks, black folks, folks of color.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
The only way that we're told that we.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Can safely exist is if we shrink ourselves and sort
of try to disappear and try to stay off the radar.
And it breaks my heart that that's what Lynn Conway
had to do. But again, what could we what kind
of world could we live in if all these folks
didn't feel like that's what they had to do.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Just to exist, right, I mean literally to be able
to say I'm here and this is who I am
in the story.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
And she's not asking for recognition. She never was. She
just wanted to be.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
And I think that's where I want to throw things,
throw things at lots of people, especially obviously the people
who are ignorant and are continued to spread these types
of hate and this type of environment, saying that the
only way that we are happy is if my norm
from way back when, which is steeped in misogyny, steeped
(29:26):
in patriarchy, steeped in racism, that if this exists, not okay,
as long as you don't, you don't exist in my
world and I don't have to think about you.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
And that's just a whole other level.
Speaker 5 (29:39):
But you know what, if this is the movie, I
feel like this is the arc where she becomes triumphant.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah, yes, yeah, So this is where I think it
gets so interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
So basically, Conway had made all of these big contributions,
not just during her time at x RATS, but also
going back to nineteen sixty eight when she was still
at IBM. And you know, at this point, none of
these contributions were really attributed to her. In nineteen ninety nine,
a computer historian began investigating her early innovations at IBM,
which tipped her off that other people had been taking credit,
(30:08):
or had been like kind of sort of low key
taking credit for the work at IBM that she had
done under a different name. She wanted to correct the record,
but in order to do so, she knew that she
would need to open up about her identity and explain
why somebody with a different name had made all of
these big contributions and accomplishments that she was saying actually
belonged to her. And so she ended up telling this
(30:29):
computer historian and then quietly added a quote gender transition
section to her own website. And this small, quiet decision
is what really sparked the next chapter of her life,
as this you know, outspoken advocate for trans writes and
what an interesting conundrum that would be to say, like, well,
(30:51):
I want to correct the record. I want people to
know that this was me that I did this work.
But in order to do that, I really have to,
you know, oh, open up about my identity in a
way that I haven't really.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Been so comfortable with before.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
And so how interesting it is that that personal choice,
and that personal, you know, conundrum for Linn Conway would
go on to broaden all of our understanding of our
world and all of our understanding of like why we
have the technology that we do and who is responsible
for it. And so I just always thought that was
an interesting way that like this personal dilemma for Conway
(31:28):
had these massive global implications for all of us and
our understanding of technology and the internet and history.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, it's one of those things where for for some
people that would be such a like minor thing, but
to that's huge to have to make that decision and
to also like weigh the implications of your personal life
on something that, again, for a lot of people might
be pretty minor. But this is changes Lynn Conway's life,
(31:58):
and it changes all of ours and all all of
the understanding and information we have about things we do
use all of the time and who's behind those and
who's responsible for those, And yeah, it's not an easy
thing to do at all. But also, yeah, this really
led her down this path of advocating for trans rights.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Right absolutely, So, the list of all the different ways
that she became this outspoken advocate for trans rights, it's very,
very long, She's given support and assistance to many trans
women who were going through transition, and she was an
advocate for employment protections for trans folks and then also
just a general advocate for trans folks in technology. One
of my favorite things about her that she has done
(32:43):
is that in twenty thirteen, Conway and Leandra Vicki of
the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill successively lobbied the
Board of Directors of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers,
which is essentially a code of ethics pertaining to the
engineering profession to include trans identity, which impacts you know,
the largest engineering professional society today. And so that's going
(33:04):
to have like global, far reaching impacts to make that
trans inclusive. And so that was work that she was
able to do because she had become this like outspoken
advocate for trans rights. And then like, yeah, just you know,
I'm so happy that she had this time in her
life where she was able to be a vocal advocate
(33:27):
for her people and make change for other people coming
up in technology, Like I think that's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I gotta ask, did IBM ever
you know, come back with the athology well.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
So that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
So you're probably thinking, wow, Conway is basically this like
world changing badass, who is the reason we have smartphones.
IBM really messed up by firing her, and they would agree.
After over fifty years of silence about how they treated
Lyn Conway, finally in October of twenty twenty, IBM invited
their staff to an event called tech Trailblazers and transgender
(34:06):
pioneer Lynn Conway in conversation with Diane Gerson. And Garrison,
at the time was IBM's senior vice president of human Resources,
and the event started with a formal apology to Conway
for her transphobic firing fifty two years earlier, and Conway
said that when this was happening, she was like struggling
to hold back tears. And not only did they apologize,
(34:26):
but they also recognized her immense and deep contributions to
IBM's work that again had just gone like unattributed because
they fired her. So they fired her to avoid being
associated with a trans woman, and so.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
They couldn't very well be like, oh, well, all of.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
These different things we are contributions we have because of
this transwoman we fired for being trans so they basically
just like overlooked and unattributed all of this work that
she had done. Dario Gill, director of IBM Research, presented
Conway with a Lifetime Achievement Award, given to individuals who
have changed the world through technological innovations, and Gil noted
that Lynn's extraordinary tech nical achievements helped to find the
(35:01):
modern computing industry. She paved the way for how we
design and make computing ships today and forever change microelectronics
devices and people's lives. And again, you know, it was
fifty two years later that this company finally acknowledged that
after she was fired in nineteen sixty eight, that her
research was still aiding IBM success today. A spokesperson for
IBM said, in nineteen sixty five, Lynn created the architectural
(35:23):
level Advanced Computing System one simulator and invented a method
that led to the development of a super scalar computer.
This dynamic instruction scheduling invention was later used at computer ships,
greatly improving their performance. And so basically all of that
is to say, finally IBM was like, oh, yeah, this
like groundbreaking research that she did we still use today
(35:43):
and like actually really helped us today. And you know it,
just for me is like, finally, fifty two years later,
you can apologize and acknowledge, and Conway said of the event,
instead of just being a resolution of what happened in
nineteen sixty eight, it became a heart I felt group
celebration of how far we've all come since then.
Speaker 6 (36:04):
Wait, so did the dude that fired her? Was he
still alive? Because I just really need to know that
he needs to know.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
That I apologize him. I really need to see this.
I want him sitting in the board meeting, hearing this
conversation and them saying, you know what, this is your fault.
You messed up, and we're having to do this to
do a Maya copa because of what I really need
that in the back of my head, I want.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
A if he I don't know if he's so alive,
but if you're if he is, I want a personalized
video message apology.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
This is what I need.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
And you know what, because I feel like again, this
is a movie in my head that I've been playing
for the last thirty and what some thirty somewhat minutes.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
I need to know.
Speaker 5 (36:49):
I need to see the scene of her standing by
the river with her nice home, talking about her past,
sitting with hopefully her children and her grandchildren.
Speaker 6 (36:59):
And talking about where she is today.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
So can you please finish out this conclusion that I
desperately need.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Oh my god, I'm happy to you.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
And this is something else that I like love about
her story is that she's still very much alive. January second,
she celebrated her eighty fifth birthday, so just a few
weeks ago. Happy birthday, Happy birthday.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
And something else.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
That I love about her story is that like she
you know, when I was researching for this episode, I
found all these great videos of her.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
She is living her best life.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
She is on twenty four beautiful acres of meadow marsh
and woodlands and rural Michigan with her husband, where they
spend all of their time like exploring the outdoors.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
You know. I saw these videos of them writing, like.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Four wheelers together on their property, and like canoeing together,
and like climbing together, and I just felt like, I'm
so happy that she is like living her best life
and she's still an amazing activist.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
You can follow her on Twitter at Lynn Conway.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And yeah, I'm so happy that her story ends with
her with a loving husband, living her best life in Michigan,
exploring the outdoors.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yes, and I love that this theme of like adventure
and canoeing has been so foundational and helped her through
these like tough times in her life. And now she
has all this land and she gets to still explore
those things that bring her joy.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
That makes me very happy.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
Yeah, it's really sweet.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Like if anybody like definitely that you can google pictures
of her and google videos of her on her property
and like it's it's the cutest.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
It like melted my heart. It made me very very happy.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I need this.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Or trying you, Samantha, I feel like you need to
be attached to this project if it.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Ever is exploding.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Like this is what I needed today.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
The feel good but like heart wrenching tell of coming
through all the trials and tribulation and then coming to
the end with her massive property, happily with holding hands
with her husband, loving life.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It makes me so happy.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
And I just kind of say, like, you know, trans
people like Lynn Conway deserve to live full, beautiful lives
that account for their contributions and their brilliance. And they
deserve that regardless of where they are on their journeys,
you know, transition. Like obviously this story was very focused
around Conway's transition, but transition means different things to different people,
(39:20):
Like it can mean personal and medical and legal steps,
or like telling someone's family and friends and coworkers, or
using a different name or new pronouns, or dressing differently,
or it can be different things for different people.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
And as we discussed.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Earlier, you know, it can be really financially prohibitive for many.
And so regardless of whether or not trans folks are
able to transition the way that Conway did, they deserve
to live full lives like they deserve whatever their particular
version of a twenty four acre farm on the woodlands
and rural Michigan is like, they deserve that, whether they
(39:52):
can transition the way that she did or not. And so,
you know, I just want to say that because I
think that sometimes can feel like the reason why her
story gets the happy ending is because she was able
to transition. And I think that everybody deserves a full
life and a happy ending, regardless of where they are
on that journey.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
I mean, that's the end goal is people live their
best life, to truly have the freedom and the peace
and happy of pursuit of happiness, as they should, because
this is about them, it's not about us. When people
are disenfranchised and pushed to the point of being non existent,
that's when we lose great minds, and that's what we
lose greatness in general. And it breaks my heart obviously,
(40:34):
as you have brought this story to us, that this
is a good ending, and I love that we can
celebrate her while she's still here and give her the
flowers that she deserves while she's still here.
Speaker 6 (40:45):
But at the same time, you.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Know, we can't look past the fact that she had
to go through this in the first place. And though
she was able to get through it, and thank God
that she was able to, there's so many others who
are pushed beyond those boundaries, and that we don't get
to sell who they are because of hate and ignorance
and the continued need to erase and completely censure these
(41:08):
amazing people just for who they are, just for living.
Speaker 6 (41:12):
And we cannot be quiet.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
And belittle the fact that this is an ongoing issue
today and the many who have been killed, the many
who have died by suicide, like all of these things
are important that we keep talking about what great success
can look like. But the fact that that she shouldn't
have have gone through half the ship that she had
to go through and have many of these people have
to go through.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I mean, that's one of the reasons why her story
sticks with me because it just reminds me to sell
it to like build the monuments to these marginalized people
who are so often erased, and do so as a
way to honor the people who didn't make it, the
people whose voices and whose stories we won't hear, the
people who are making contributions that we don't know about
(42:00):
right now, right that we won't find out about. And so,
you know, I think it's so important that we, just
like you said that, we don't let sexist, racist, transphobic
systems erase these accomplishments because they are important to all
of us. There there are history as just as people
as humans. And so it's you really said it, like
it's so important to me. And Conway has this great
(42:22):
piece kind of looking back on her life in the
Huffington Post and it ends with this great line, bottom line,
if you want to change the future, start living as
if you're already there.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
And I love that for her. I love the idea
of all.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Of us taking responsibility to sort of create the world
we want to see and build these these monuments to
these marginalized voices that we desperately need. So Lynn Conway,
you are a hero. You are incredible, Your story is amazing.
You are a badass. And I'm so glad that we
can talk about her while she's still alive. Like we
could go tweet at her if you wanted, Like, that's incredible,
that is living history.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
That is coneet at her from the technologies she health created.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
That got me really excited.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
And thank you, Bridget for bringing this story for always,
you know, finding these these things that we might have
missed that are so important, are so so valuable for
us to know and talk about.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
So we really appreciate it. And thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Thank you, oh thank you for giving me the space
to do it. This is my favorite thing to do
in the world. It makes me so happy. So thank
thanks to the both of you.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yes, well, I can't wait to do it again. We'll
see what we can get moving with this motion picture deal.
But in the meantime, Bridget, where can the good listeners
find you?
Speaker 2 (43:42):
You can find me at my own podcast called There
Are No Girls on the Internet, where we love digging
into the unexplored, overlooked history of marginalized folks and how
they shape technology in the Internet. You can find me
on Instagram at Bridget Marie and DC and on Twitter,
probably tweeting at Lyn Conway how much I love her
at Bridget Murray.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yes, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Definitely go check all that stuff out listeners, if you
haven't already, thank you again Bridget to wait to hang
out again in this virtual weird pandemic setting, and thank
you listeners for listening. If you want to contact us,
you can our email Stuffidia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts
(44:24):
or on Instagram a stuff when Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you and
thanks to you for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You.
Distrection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
it's the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 3 (44:34):
You listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff
when never told you a prediction, I heard you, And
today we are bringing back an episode we did Bridget,
which we always love bringing back. Sometimes it's tricky because
(00:26):
she always does such timely stuff, but it's always still
relevant in a way that is both upsetting and sometimes like,
oh we still need to be talking about this. But
as we're moving into Pride months, I thought we would
bring back this one about Lynn Conway and all of
(00:46):
the contributions that lin Kwanway had to the tech to
the tech environment that almost got erased. So yeah, please enjoy. Hey,
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stefan Never
Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled
(01:16):
to once again be joined by the fabulous Bridget Todd
coworker and friend. Yes, first recording session of the new year.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh that's right, happy, first recording of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes, how how is your your weirdo? Christmas? How is
your new year? Bridget?
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Weirdo? Christmas? Was super fun? Thank you for asking.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It involved all the staples I hoped it had drunkenness,
crazy outfits, Yes, fire pits, dancing, but then sadly, right
after that, I got COVID. Oh Dan, I know, I
am recovering from COVID, which it was not how I
plan to spend the latter part of the holiday. So
(01:57):
my New Year's was just really spent sweating and moaning,
not for any kind of fun.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Reason, because I was in discomfort.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
That turns so quickly, Wow, well, I'm glad you're okay.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
How are you feeling today?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Much better?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I mean, I unfortunately I got COVID before I was
able to be boosted.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
And so if.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Anyone is listening and they are like, I'll take in
their sweet time to get their booster shot, don't do that.
My partner also got COVID, and he is he was
boosted and recovered so much quicker than me.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
So I'm feeling a lot better, but.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It really does linger, like don't let anybody tell you
that omicron is like, oh, it's very mild, Like that
might mean you don't need to go to the hospital,
but it definitely like lingers and you feel like garbage
for quite.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
A while, right, I mean, that's the report I've been hearing,
is like everybody's saying it was a mild case, but
that doesn't necessarily mean you're not affected or asymptomatic. Literally,
you're just not at the hospital and you may have
the one hundred and four fever all the problems, and
it may last longer than the flu. But yeah, it
sounds like being boosted is the way to go.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
So sorry, Bridget, Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean it could have been a lot worse, and
I'm happy to be on the men. But yeah, it
was a good excuse to stay in bed and watch
a binge watch shows.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
So I was talk you about that nice.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Well, yeah, it's funny because Samantha and I it was
like right before almicron, like we you know, heard about it,
but it was before everyone was like, oh my god,
it's everywhere. We went to the movies and we saw
The Matrix and Spider Man.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
We did Double Feature.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And I after that the news came out everyone had amochron,
and I was convinced I had it, even though I
had no proof, like there was no symptoms or anything.
But I essentially stayed in on New Year's as if
I have COVID, I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I'm gonna see anybody. And it was actually very lovely.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
It was nice, right, I mean to the point that
I think for introverts like myself is now just like okay,
well I might have COVID, so I can't I can't
go so sorry, I.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Might have it.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I don't know, such a good, ready made excuse, like
I might have COVID.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I'm worried about COVID. Thinking about COVID, like it's.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Such a good excuse to not have to do things
you don't really want to do.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Yeah, I'm like, this is how I live in my
comfy forever. I keep mentioning comfies and I know they
are not a sponsor. They need to be a sponsor
at this point because I'm always cold, and I'm looking
at you, Bridget, because you're actually in sleeveless and I'm like,
oh my god, and it's sunny where you're sitting as
where we are in the darkness and depths of despair, apparently.
Speaker 6 (04:44):
In my comfy.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
But I'm like, wow, this is a drastic difference between
us and you.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So I am like the other side of the coin,
which is that I live in an old apartment and
we have old school like radiator heat that we're not
really able to control right, uncomfortably warm in the window
open even though there is snow on the ground.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, that is very, very different.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
We got like a hint of snow in Atlanta and.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Cranking up my radiator.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I also have a radiator that I it's tricky to control,
but I think I got it figured out. You open
the one in the bathroom halfway and you're gonna be fined.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Everybody who has radiator heet like you have.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You have like a weird mechanism of like you gotta
do this, gotta do that, a window like it's it's
a delicate art.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
When I first moved in here, I was like, I
asked my landlord what is that?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
And he looked at me. He said, it's a radiator.
You're gonna have to figure that out. Like oh okay,
oh yes, well okay.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Now that we've checked in Bridget, I am so excited
with the topic you bought today because I didn't know
this story and it's an amazing story. So can you
tell us what we're going to be talking about today?
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Yes, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
You know one of my favorite things in the world
that's really talking about overlooked figures in history. The history
of technology and the Internet, of which there are many,
and I feel like they can really tell us a
lot about how our identities often determined who gets remembered
and who gets overlooked, even when someone is responsible for
pretty much changing the world, like the person that we're
(06:20):
going to be discussing today, Lynn Conway. Linn Conway is
an amazing historical figure. She's still alive, but she essentially
changed the world. She is the reason why we have
things like personal computers, smartphones, tablets, iPads, all of that,
and yet her story almost went overlooked because of transphobia.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Right, Yeah, And it is quite the story and quite
the journey and still still alive today, So that's awesome.
Still making changes also awesome. But can we get into
some of the early history here?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yes, so, Linn.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
She was born in nineteen thirty eight and was assigned
mail at birth, but from an early age she knew
there was more to her story as it pertained to
her gender. Her mom was studying anthropology at Columbia, and
she would flip through her mom's school textbooks sort of
looking for any kind of answers or perspectives that spoke
to how she knew she was feeling. And there's a
really lovely profile of Lynn Conway in Michigan Engineering News,
(07:24):
so definitely check that out. But in that profile, she says,
it seemed like people in other cultures had found different
ways to.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Deal with what I knew I was feeling. But then
that became scrambled.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
But the thought that what I was feeling was that
I was gay, but no one ever talked about these things.
When Conway was fourteen, she read a news story about
the former Army private Christine Jorgensen, who was the first
person in the United States to publicly announce a gender transition,
and that really changed everything for Lynn Conway.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
She said, from reading that story, she knew what she.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Needed to do, Like she realized, like, I am going
through the same thing, and this is what I want
to do, And it really set her out on this
journey to discover her identity.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
Wow, I really couldn't imagine in that day and time
being in that place like its difficult as it is
today in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 6 (08:13):
Oh my god, I just said, the year.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
Twenty twenty two of being a part of the queer
community in general, even no matter what I just you know,
not to put too much of my personal life out there.
I just had a big discussion with my parents about
acceptance of the queer community point blank, not not anything
outside of not me coming out, just what it was.
And it was a little bit combative from my parents,
(08:35):
that just them trying to accept the queer community in
general and talking about what that is in relation to
their conservative ideas. So I can't imagine if those are
the hard conversations we're having today, I can't imagine what
it would have been like back then. So what was
her coming of age story like or what was it
(08:55):
that we need to know about because I can't again,
like my heart just like it is pounding the idea
of what she went through.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Yeah, it's that's such a good point.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And when I was putting together this outline of her
of her life, that was something that I kept getting
struck by the ways in which we have come so
far as a society in terms of accepting but also
the ways in which we have a lot further to
go as in terms of sort of accepting and supporting
folks who are on a journey right and so Conway
(09:24):
initially tried to transition while she was studying MIT in
the fifties, and so she basically started taking hormones that
she had procured.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
On her own.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And then she talked to a friend who was in
medical school to see if you could help her connect
to a doctor who might be able to help her,
and this friend ended up taking her to a dean
at the college, and that dean told her that she
did not stop taking these hormones on her own, that
she would end up at a mental institution. And this
fear of being institutionalized and also arrested is something that
(09:51):
really marked Lynn Conway's life, you know back then. You know,
if you were if you were to you know, transition
or come out as trends in a lot of places,
you could just be outright arrested. But also the threat
of being institutionalized in a mental institution, and you know,
it's again, it's one of those things that it makes
me so sad that even today there are people that
(10:13):
equate being trans with being mentally ill or being a criminal.
Like it's one of those things that obviously it was
so salient to Lynn Conway back in the fifties, but
it's not like we've unfortunately, it's not like we have
completely moved beyond that, because there are certainly still people
out there today who believe, oh, if you're trans, you
belong in prison, you belong in an institution.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
You know, you're not quote unquote normal.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
And yeah, it is one of those ways that makes me,
on the one hand, marvel at how far we've come,
but also lament that we have so much.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Further to go.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I mean, just all of the laws we've seen pass,
the anti trans laws, it's just ongoing, and it's this
constant onslaught and you know, it's targeting in a lot
of cases young young children, like people in schools, and
it's so damaging and so toxic. And I can imagine
(11:11):
for Conway this that fear and being told by the
Dean like this was a legitimate fear was a huge setback.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I mean Lynn Knaway talks about her time at MIT
as like fairly traumatic after this really disappointing turn of
events when she was trying to transition. Initially, she kind
of just put transitioning at the back of her mind.
She got married, she became a parent, she started working
at IBM. At this time in Lynn's life, she from
the outside seemed to kind of have a picture of
(11:44):
perfect life. She was making major moves and innovations at IBM,
which at the time was the seventh largest corporation in
the whole world. And while she was working at IBM,
by all accounts, she was kicking ass. You know, she
invented a hardware protocol that enabled the out of order
command processing most computers still rely on today. But all
of this, all of this, these accomplishments, and all of
(12:06):
this like fantastic domestic life that she that she seemed
to be living, was put into jeopardy because of transphobia,
and that transphobia would really alter the trajectory of her life.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
I can't imagine a person who has that much stress
in their lives and that much conflict being able to, like,
what would she have really accomplished if she was able
to be fully accepted as who she was at that
point in time. And you know, and the other thought is,
like her friend really betrayed her. I can't imagine tried
(12:52):
ever coming out again, or even questioning again, or even
saying anything out loud because the person that she trusted
literally ranted her out in order to have this agenda
pushed against her, saying, nah, you better stay in the
norm aka what we think is normal, or you are
going to be criminalized essentially for who you are. And
(13:15):
I'm just like, ah, everything, Uh.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, That's something that I think about a lot when
it comes to things like transphobia. You know how much
brilliance does the world miss out on because of transphobia?
Glenn Conway accomplished a lot, but could she accomplish so
much more if she wasn't putting up with this? And
so I think about trans folks today, you know, the
kinds of like ridiculous legislation that they have to spend
(13:41):
their time combating, the kinds of ridiculous myths and stereotypes
and misinformation about who they are and their identities. If
they didn't have to spend their time countering that kind
of nonsense, what could they be accomplishing? And so I
always wonder, not only is it completely unfair unacceptable that
trans folks have to put up with that, but we
all miss out, like we all miss out on contributions
(14:03):
that can make our lives better or we're interesting or
more creative. When marginalized people are saddled with these kinds
of you know, this kind of nonsense like an onslaught
of laws and misinformation about who they.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Are, right, Yeah, I feel like that we talk about
that a lot on here and all the things that,
you know, the stories that aren't even being told, and
then that impacts what people think or who people think
are doing in technology or stinfield in general, who are
making these these big moves and you know, still using
(14:37):
this technology.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
That's we don't know. We don't know about her and.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Conway, even though she kind of put this transitioning on
the back burner and never really left her mind, right.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So eventually she learned about the pioneering gender transition work
of doctor Harry Benjamin. He was a famous indochronologist and
sexologist who was really known for his clinical work with
trans folks. And she decided, I want to work with
this doctor. This is the doctor who is going to
help me. And this is something that I find so heartbreaking.
That was in that Michigan engineering profile I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
It sounds like Conway and her then.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Spouse had really worked out like a solid plan of
the logistics of how this transition was going to work
for their family. They decided they were going to get
a divorce, and that Conway would start working with doctor
Benjamin to transition, and that she was going to pay
child support from this IBM salary that she'd had, and
they decided that she was going to stay in the
lives of their children and that the children would call
(15:38):
her aunt, right, And so it sounds like as a
family unit, they had really ironed out how.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
This was going to work.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And according to another really compelling piece I read in
Forbes by Jeremy Alessandre, Conway's immediate family and IBM, like
her coworkers of IBM were actually pretty accepting and supportive
of her desire to transition at first, like even know
this was you know, the fifties, the sixties, Like they
were kind of okay with that, and my, we're supporting
(16:06):
this choice. However, when IBM's corporate medical director learned that
Conwy was planning to transition in nineteen sixty eight, he
told CEO Thomas J. Watson Junior, who fired Conway to
avoid the public embarrassment of employing a trans woman, and
so all of this work that Conway had done with
her then spouse to iron out the logistics of how
(16:27):
this was going to work, you know, was basically pulled
from under her. And this really like it sounds like
this was like a completely destabilizing thing in her life.
Speaker 6 (16:37):
Oh god, I mean yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
If you think you have a plan and you're excited
about at least having forward steps and then having something
that is so traumatic that once again is portraying you
essentially something that you were so excited about and not
even excited about just trying to live your life as.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
You truly are.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
I can't imagine how this would have just deflated you.
I've been without a job, I've been fired, and that
sense of self is gone and self worth feels like
it's just a loss of yourself. So someone who can't
even express themselves losing even more of themselves. Holy crap.
And I can't on top of that like this again, y'all.
My Christmas was a doozy. But this again kind of
(17:23):
goes back to my conversation with my parents. Are like,
this is why these laws are important, This is why
anti discrimination laws need to be in place. And when
we talk about tugging at the strings, which is what
is happening under the Supreme Court, which is what we're
talking about every day, still these are things like this
can happen, and it truly I can't imagine what the
(17:44):
impact was for her to be fired during the middle
of a thing that she thought she could maybe finally
find herself.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, it's so sad.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It really seems like it started like a downward spiral
in her life. You know, she had to divorce her
else while losing her sole source of income, which you know, obviously,
as you just described, like makes it that much more
difficult when you your source of income is gone, your
identity that was attached to having this like pretty big
deal job being not just being taken from you in
(18:14):
this way, but like your contributions. You know, she was
someone who kicked ass, who really made a lot of contributions,
and being fired like this like meeting those contributions and
all of that work just sort of going overlooked because
of transphobia. And so it really sounds like this like
was a really dark time for her. The California Social
Services tried to keep her away from her kids, and
(18:36):
Conway's then expouse decided that she could not have any
contact with them because she was worried that if Conway
was in her kid's life that they would be taken
by the state. And at the time her kids were
just babies. They were two and four years old, And
this sounds like something that really stuck with Conway. In
this profile, she recalls that tore me up. Let me
tell you, the hardest part about the whole thing was
(18:56):
that I really felt.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Like a mom to them.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And again, just what a domino effect, A negative domino effect,
being fired for being trans caused in her life, losing
her income, losing that identity, breaking up her family, and
she you know, she knew this was going to be
a really tough process, and she relied on her lessons
that she had learned from this lifetime love of outdoor
(19:19):
adventures like canoeing and rock climbing to steady herself. She
described it, Now, I had a plan to get across
the river, she said. I could see the steps I
had to make. I could see the dangers and how
to protect against them. The only problem was I didn't
know where I'd end up on the other side.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
So even though this.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Had cost her her job, her family, her domestic life,
she still continued to work with doctor Benjamin to transition right.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
And there were so many as that quote described challenges
and obstacles beyond what.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
We've already talked about.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Which is already a lot so so much so, can
you talk about some of the challenges that were that
Conway faced around this transition?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Absolutely so, as a lot of trans folks will probably
tell you some of the logistics around transition, you know,
things like changing your name, getting new identification and paperwork
is going to be a big part of navigating trans
identity so that you can work and earn an income
and have a bank account and get a place to live.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Even today, this process.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Is really complicated and sometimes like prohibitively expensive, and again
I'm sad to say that not a lot you know,
was hard back then, and unfortunately it's hard today. Unfortunately
a lot of trans folks don't have the support or
resources they need to navigate it. According to the National
Transgender Discrimination Survey, only one fifth of trans people who
have transitioned have been able to update all of their
(20:43):
IDs and records with their new gender, and one third
have not been able to update any of their IDs
or records. Luckily, for Conway, she was able to use
connections that doctor Benjamin had in Oakland, California to get
it done quickly, which, as you might imagine, was really
really important to avoid suspicion back then, because you know,
it could easily turn unsafe if somebody suspected, you know,
(21:06):
that you were transitioning or that you were trans and
so being able to navigate this quickly was of the
utmost importance for her. She has this quote, she says,
you were an undocumented alien from Mars.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
You don't have a birth certificate. How are you going
to get a job? This was the sixties.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
You can think of it like being a spy in
a foreign country. If you were found out, you'd be
dealt with immediately, if not by the police, then by
people on the streets. And so it's probably clear that
why after actually going through this transition, Conway started the
period of her life which she refers to as her
the stealth phase of her career.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Okay, so this entire thing feels like it should be
a giant movie, right, It should be a feature movie somehow,
whether it's like coming of age and or just overall like, yeah,
it could be like a spy movie in the industry,
but it's not not.
Speaker 6 (21:53):
I'm just saying that from her quote in itself.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
But it's an amazing account of all of the things
that she has gone through. I feel like, hello, actors,
this is an Oscar level of performers if you can
get it, and it should be done by a trainswoman obviously.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yes, could you talk about it and watch this?
Speaker 5 (22:12):
I want to see this. Can you talk about this
stealth based? Because yeah, I'm really into the movie now.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
So in nineteen sixty nine, Conway changed her name, hit
her gender identity, and started looking for work and computing. Eventually,
she found a job as a contract programmer, which is
like pretty entry level, but because she is like a
bad ass, she pretty quickly moved up. She later worked
at MEMORYS and then landed what I'm calling.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
The big account.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
You know in movies when someone's like, oh he got
the big account, Like this was Conway's like her big
account working at Xerox's Palo Alto research center, which is
a huge, huge deal. And again, because she is a badass,
she immediately started like kicking ass, just like she had
before at IBM before getting fired.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
Is that a Silicon city? In making that up? Is
that the beginning is that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I think that's like that, like the Silicon Valley area. Yeah,
Like that was like where so many of the technological
innovations that like we still have today that really shaped
like where computers and technology and smartphones ended up going.
So much of that research happened right there. So like
the big account.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
So she literally was at the beginning of what is
known as one of the biggest technological industrial times of
our age. Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And again like that alone, even if
like like I find her story so fascinating and inspiring,
but like that alone is a huge deal, right, Like
we haven't even gotten into some of the other parts
of her life, But that alone, being a trans woman
at the forefront and the preceidice of all of these
things that would go on to revolutionize all of our
(23:49):
lives is so.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Interesting to me. Like that alone would be a huge accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yes, and speaking of there were many other accomplishments that
she was taking part in during this time, right.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
So I have to give a little bit of a
caveat that, Like, I am not an engineer, so engineers
who are listening don't come after me if I say
the wrong thing. I'm summarizing. I am a non hard
tech person summarizing someone who was like one of the
most brilliant tech.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Minds on the planet.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Give me some just know that.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeh.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So her work completely revolutionized how microchips were designed, and
she sometimes called the Hidden Hands, like that's her nickname
for this work and how it led to the tech
revolution in the eighties and nineties, and again it's like
a big part of the reason why we have smartphones
and personal computers. But even while she was accomplishing all
of these important innovations, she really couldn't own them because
of her identity. Again, she says that she was working
(24:47):
in sort of stealth mode where she was just kind
of purposely staying behind the scenes despite creating these innovations
that would literally go on to change the world. And
during this time, her trans identity was not public knowledge.
She only told close friends or like hr people or
people who were needed to like do her security clearance,
and she purposely made herself scarce and stayed behind the scenes,
(25:07):
you know, hence the nickname the Hidden Hand. But that
meant all of her accomplishments and innovations they also stayed
behind the scenes too. And you know, it's one of
those things where this is not like you know, people
are like, oh, women's history is all of our history,
or black history is all of our history, or trans
history is all of our history.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
This is you know, everybody uses a computer.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Or a smartphone for the most part, and like, transphobia
almost kept us from having a full accounting of this
history that shaped all of our lives, right, like Lynn
Conway touched like her work touched all of us, and
we almost did not get a full accounting of it
because of the harmful legacy of transphobia and transphobic systems. O.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Wait, can we first say that The Hidden Hand is
the title of the movie?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
That's right?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
If there are any like movie like The Hidden Hand?
Speaker 5 (26:12):
Perfect Maybe I've been watching Way to Meet martial arts film,
but I'm like, wait, wait, wait, this is like Asian
level of martial arts stealth movie. I don't know what's happening,
but I'm seeing it. Maybe just needs to be transformed
into that. I don't know, but yeah, I hate that.
This is once again, when we talk about women in history,
(26:35):
especially women in marginalized communities, how they literally have to
shrink in order to accomplish what they have to do
quote unquote to live what they need to do and
be who they need to be, to shrink and disappear
into the background so they don't make.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
Too much noise.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
And that is what has been taught for so long,
and this is one of the prime examples for so many,
especially again within the queer community. Yeah, within like women
in colors, especially black women, being told, yeah, you can
do it, but you don't be loud about it, because
then you're just going to cost too much of a
ruckus and your personal life.
Speaker 6 (27:10):
You just being you will be a distraction.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
And I'm enraged right now just thinking about it as
I continue on, because this is such a pattern with
our society and the misogynistic idea overall, that this is
how it should have been, and this is how everybody
accepted it and was okay with it. And I'm reading
all the things that you put in here, and I'm like, wow, wow, wow, Like,
how how.
Speaker 6 (27:35):
Do you keep going?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
How do you continue to persevere and create these amazing
things when there's so much against you, when you're being
continually told don't exist point blank.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I mean, it's it's enraging. And it's like, you know,
you were talking about these conversations you were having over
the holidays with your family. I think for a lot
of people it's exactly what you said. It's I don't
hate queer people, I don't hate trans people. I just
don't want to. I don't want to think I have
to think about them. I don't want them to take
up too much space, like this idea that you know.
(28:08):
I remember having similar conversations with my family where they
would be like, well, I just don't want to shove
them my face, and it's like, no one's shoving it
in like like for for some people, just existing is
shoving it in your face, right, just like taking up
space and being yourself is equated with, like quote, shoving.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
It in someone's face. And so I agree.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
I think that it's such a pattern where women, queer folks,
trans folks, black folks, folks of color.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
The only way that we're told that we.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Can safely exist is if we shrink ourselves and sort
of try to disappear and try to stay off the radar.
And it breaks my heart that that's what Lynn Conway
had to do. But again, what could we what kind
of world could we live in if all these folks
didn't feel like that's what they had to do.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Just to exist, right, I mean literally to be able
to say I'm here and this is who I am
in the story.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
And she's not asking for recognition. She never was. She
just wanted to be.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
And I think that's where I want to throw things,
throw things at lots of people, especially obviously the people
who are ignorant and are continued to spread these types
of hate and this type of environment, saying that the
only way that we are happy is if my norm
from way back when, which is steeped in misogyny, steeped
(29:26):
in patriarchy, steeped in racism, that if this exists, not okay,
as long as you don't, you don't exist in my
world and I don't have to think about you.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
And that's just a whole other level.
Speaker 5 (29:39):
But you know what, if this is the movie, I
feel like this is the arc where she becomes triumphant.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah, yes, yeah, So this is where I think it
gets so interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
So basically, Conway had made all of these big contributions,
not just during her time at x RATS, but also
going back to nineteen sixty eight when she was still
at IBM. And you know, at this point, none of
these contributions were really attributed to her. In nineteen ninety nine,
a computer historian began investigating her early innovations at IBM,
which tipped her off that other people had been taking credit,
(30:08):
or had been like kind of sort of low key
taking credit for the work at IBM that she had
done under a different name. She wanted to correct the record,
but in order to do so, she knew that she
would need to open up about her identity and explain
why somebody with a different name had made all of
these big contributions and accomplishments that she was saying actually
belonged to her. And so she ended up telling this
(30:29):
computer historian and then quietly added a quote gender transition
section to her own website. And this small, quiet decision
is what really sparked the next chapter of her life,
as this you know, outspoken advocate for trans writes and
what an interesting conundrum that would be to say, like, well,
(30:51):
I want to correct the record. I want people to
know that this was me that I did this work.
But in order to do that, I really have to,
you know, oh, open up about my identity in a
way that I haven't really.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Been so comfortable with before.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
And so how interesting it is that that personal choice,
and that personal, you know, conundrum for Linn Conway would
go on to broaden all of our understanding of our
world and all of our understanding of like why we
have the technology that we do and who is responsible
for it. And so I just always thought that was
an interesting way that like this personal dilemma for Conway
(31:28):
had these massive global implications for all of us and
our understanding of technology and the internet and history.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, it's one of those things where for for some
people that would be such a like minor thing, but
to that's huge to have to make that decision and
to also like weigh the implications of your personal life
on something that, again, for a lot of people might
be pretty minor. But this is changes Lynn Conway's life,
(31:58):
and it changes all of ours and all all of
the understanding and information we have about things we do
use all of the time and who's behind those and
who's responsible for those, And yeah, it's not an easy
thing to do at all. But also, yeah, this really
led her down this path of advocating for trans rights.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Right absolutely, So, the list of all the different ways
that she became this outspoken advocate for trans rights, it's very,
very long, She's given support and assistance to many trans
women who were going through transition, and she was an
advocate for employment protections for trans folks and then also
just a general advocate for trans folks in technology. One
of my favorite things about her that she has done
(32:43):
is that in twenty thirteen, Conway and Leandra Vicki of
the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill successively lobbied the
Board of Directors of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers,
which is essentially a code of ethics pertaining to the
engineering profession to include trans identity, which impacts you know,
the largest engineering professional society today. And so that's going
(33:04):
to have like global, far reaching impacts to make that
trans inclusive. And so that was work that she was
able to do because she had become this like outspoken
advocate for trans rights. And then like, yeah, just you know,
I'm so happy that she had this time in her
life where she was able to be a vocal advocate
(33:27):
for her people and make change for other people coming
up in technology, Like I think that's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I gotta ask, did IBM ever
you know, come back with the athology well.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
So that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
So you're probably thinking, wow, Conway is basically this like
world changing badass, who is the reason we have smartphones.
IBM really messed up by firing her, and they would agree.
After over fifty years of silence about how they treated
Lyn Conway, finally in October of twenty twenty, IBM invited
their staff to an event called tech Trailblazers and transgender
(34:06):
pioneer Lynn Conway in conversation with Diane Gerson. And Garrison,
at the time was IBM's senior vice president of human Resources,
and the event started with a formal apology to Conway
for her transphobic firing fifty two years earlier, and Conway
said that when this was happening, she was like struggling
to hold back tears. And not only did they apologize,
(34:26):
but they also recognized her immense and deep contributions to
IBM's work that again had just gone like unattributed because
they fired her. So they fired her to avoid being
associated with a trans woman, and so.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
They couldn't very well be like, oh, well, all of.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
These different things we are contributions we have because of
this transwoman we fired for being trans so they basically
just like overlooked and unattributed all of this work that
she had done. Dario Gill, director of IBM Research, presented
Conway with a Lifetime Achievement Award, given to individuals who
have changed the world through technological innovations, and Gil noted
that Lynn's extraordinary tech nical achievements helped to find the
(35:01):
modern computing industry. She paved the way for how we
design and make computing ships today and forever change microelectronics
devices and people's lives. And again, you know, it was
fifty two years later that this company finally acknowledged that
after she was fired in nineteen sixty eight, that her
research was still aiding IBM success today. A spokesperson for
IBM said, in nineteen sixty five, Lynn created the architectural
(35:23):
level Advanced Computing System one simulator and invented a method
that led to the development of a super scalar computer.
This dynamic instruction scheduling invention was later used at computer ships,
greatly improving their performance. And so basically all of that
is to say, finally IBM was like, oh, yeah, this
like groundbreaking research that she did we still use today
(35:43):
and like actually really helped us today. And you know it,
just for me is like, finally, fifty two years later,
you can apologize and acknowledge, and Conway said of the event,
instead of just being a resolution of what happened in
nineteen sixty eight, it became a heart I felt group
celebration of how far we've all come since then.
Speaker 6 (36:04):
Wait, so did the dude that fired her? Was he
still alive? Because I just really need to know that
he needs to know.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
That I apologize him. I really need to see this.
I want him sitting in the board meeting, hearing this
conversation and them saying, you know what, this is your fault.
You messed up, and we're having to do this to
do a Maya copa because of what I really need
that in the back of my head, I want.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
A if he I don't know if he's so alive,
but if you're if he is, I want a personalized
video message apology.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
This is what I need.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
And you know what, because I feel like again, this
is a movie in my head that I've been playing
for the last thirty and what some thirty somewhat minutes.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
I need to know.
Speaker 5 (36:49):
I need to see the scene of her standing by
the river with her nice home, talking about her past,
sitting with hopefully her children and her grandchildren.
Speaker 6 (36:59):
And talking about where she is today.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
So can you please finish out this conclusion that I
desperately need.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Oh my god, I'm happy to you.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
And this is something else that I like love about
her story is that she's still very much alive. January second,
she celebrated her eighty fifth birthday, so just a few
weeks ago. Happy birthday, Happy birthday.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
And something else.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
That I love about her story is that like she
you know, when I was researching for this episode, I
found all these great videos of her.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
She is living her best life.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
She is on twenty four beautiful acres of meadow marsh
and woodlands and rural Michigan with her husband, where they
spend all of their time like exploring the outdoors.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
You know. I saw these videos of them writing, like.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Four wheelers together on their property, and like canoeing together,
and like climbing together, and I just felt like, I'm
so happy that she is like living her best life
and she's still an amazing activist.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
You can follow her on Twitter at Lynn Conway.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And yeah, I'm so happy that her story ends with
her with a loving husband, living her best life in Michigan,
exploring the outdoors.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yes, and I love that this theme of like adventure
and canoeing has been so foundational and helped her through
these like tough times in her life. And now she
has all this land and she gets to still explore
those things that bring her joy.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
That makes me very happy.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
Yeah, it's really sweet.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Like if anybody like definitely that you can google pictures
of her and google videos of her on her property
and like it's it's the cutest.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
It like melted my heart. It made me very very happy.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I need this.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Or trying you, Samantha, I feel like you need to
be attached to this project if it.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Ever is exploding.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Like this is what I needed today.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
The feel good but like heart wrenching tell of coming
through all the trials and tribulation and then coming to
the end with her massive property, happily with holding hands
with her husband, loving life.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It makes me so happy.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
And I just kind of say, like, you know, trans
people like Lynn Conway deserve to live full, beautiful lives
that account for their contributions and their brilliance. And they
deserve that regardless of where they are on their journeys,
you know, transition. Like obviously this story was very focused
around Conway's transition, but transition means different things to different people,
(39:20):
Like it can mean personal and medical and legal steps,
or like telling someone's family and friends and coworkers, or
using a different name or new pronouns, or dressing differently,
or it can be different things for different people.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
And as we discussed.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Earlier, you know, it can be really financially prohibitive for many.
And so regardless of whether or not trans folks are
able to transition the way that Conway did, they deserve
to live full lives like they deserve whatever their particular
version of a twenty four acre farm on the woodlands
and rural Michigan is like, they deserve that, whether they
(39:52):
can transition the way that she did or not. And so,
you know, I just want to say that because I
think that sometimes can feel like the reason why her
story gets the happy ending is because she was able
to transition. And I think that everybody deserves a full
life and a happy ending, regardless of where they are
on that journey.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
I mean, that's the end goal is people live their
best life, to truly have the freedom and the peace
and happy of pursuit of happiness, as they should, because
this is about them, it's not about us. When people
are disenfranchised and pushed to the point of being non existent,
that's when we lose great minds, and that's what we
lose greatness in general. And it breaks my heart obviously,
(40:34):
as you have brought this story to us, that this
is a good ending, and I love that we can
celebrate her while she's still here and give her the
flowers that she deserves while she's still here.
Speaker 6 (40:45):
But at the same time, you.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Know, we can't look past the fact that she had
to go through this in the first place. And though
she was able to get through it, and thank God
that she was able to, there's so many others who
are pushed beyond those boundaries, and that we don't get
to sell who they are because of hate and ignorance
and the continued need to erase and completely censure these
(41:08):
amazing people just for who they are, just for living.
Speaker 6 (41:12):
And we cannot be quiet.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
And belittle the fact that this is an ongoing issue
today and the many who have been killed, the many
who have died by suicide, like all of these things
are important that we keep talking about what great success
can look like. But the fact that that she shouldn't
have have gone through half the ship that she had
to go through and have many of these people have
to go through.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I mean, that's one of the reasons why her story
sticks with me because it just reminds me to sell
it to like build the monuments to these marginalized people
who are so often erased, and do so as a
way to honor the people who didn't make it, the
people whose voices and whose stories we won't hear, the
people who are making contributions that we don't know about
(42:00):
right now, right that we won't find out about. And so,
you know, I think it's so important that we, just
like you said that, we don't let sexist, racist, transphobic
systems erase these accomplishments because they are important to all
of us. There there are history as just as people
as humans. And so it's you really said it, like
it's so important to me. And Conway has this great
(42:22):
piece kind of looking back on her life in the
Huffington Post and it ends with this great line, bottom line,
if you want to change the future, start living as
if you're already there.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
And I love that for her. I love the idea
of all.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Of us taking responsibility to sort of create the world
we want to see and build these these monuments to
these marginalized voices that we desperately need. So Lynn Conway,
you are a hero. You are incredible, Your story is amazing.
You are a badass. And I'm so glad that we
can talk about her while she's still alive. Like we
could go tweet at her if you wanted, Like, that's incredible,
that is living history.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
That is coneet at her from the technologies she health created.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
That got me really excited.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
And thank you, Bridget for bringing this story for always,
you know, finding these these things that we might have
missed that are so important, are so so valuable for
us to know and talk about.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
So we really appreciate it. And thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Thank you, oh thank you for giving me the space
to do it. This is my favorite thing to do
in the world. It makes me so happy. So thank
thanks to the both of you.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yes, well, I can't wait to do it again. We'll
see what we can get moving with this motion picture deal.
But in the meantime, Bridget, where can the good listeners
find you?
Speaker 2 (43:42):
You can find me at my own podcast called There
Are No Girls on the Internet, where we love digging
into the unexplored, overlooked history of marginalized folks and how
they shape technology in the Internet. You can find me
on Instagram at Bridget Marie and DC and on Twitter,
probably tweeting at Lyn Conway how much I love her
at Bridget Murray.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yes, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Definitely go check all that stuff out listeners, if you
haven't already, thank you again Bridget to wait to hang
out again in this virtual weird pandemic setting, and thank
you listeners for listening. If you want to contact us,
you can our email Stuffidia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts
(44:24):
or on Instagram a stuff when Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you and
thanks to you for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You.
Distrection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
it's the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 3 (44:34):
You listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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