June 11, 2025 • 54 mins
Now that season 2 of The Last of Us is over, we do a recap of some thoughts, feelings and the backlash.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and SMITHA. I'm welcome to Steffan.
I never told you PRODUCTU if I heart radio, and
welcome to our hinted at the Last of Us Season
two wrap up once again, not a sponsor. If I
(00:30):
had control, things would be different. But whatever, and you
will get spoiled. On the most recent season of the
Last of Us, the first season, the first game, parts
of the second game, VY hints at what's to come,
So I'll just put that out there. I have a
(00:51):
whole section here where I'm going to complain about how
hard this is to talk about without spoiling things. But
this is a very indulgent thing because it is one
of my very favorite It's my very favorite game of
all time, and I love the show. I rewatched. I
did the whole rewatch last night.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Oh, including the first season.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
No, I didn't. I haven't had time to do that
because wow, if you've listened to the show, you know
me and Samantha have gone through some we've had some
things come up, We've had things, We've had some things
come up. So I haven't had time to do that yet.
But I did do in preparation for this the whole
second season for the first time, and it was cool,
(01:32):
like because it's really fun. I've said before I love
the anticipation, the guessing of what's coming next time, the
next episode. But it was cool knowing what was coming
and just being able to like have it continuously go
and it moves quickly like the first one. The first
(01:55):
season moves quickly, but the second one not just because
it's shorter in episodes, but I think because they're moving,
they're covering so much ground so quickly that I was like, oh,
it's over already, wall they did that much. Wow. Anyway,
I had a great time. I can't wait to do
(02:15):
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Right if you are trying to plan to do one
day when when the stars aligned, when.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
The stars aligned, because that would be sixteen hours, sixteen hours, hoof.
I could do it.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I know you could. The question is would you take
a break?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I know that's what I'm like, would you take a
pause between? Where would it be? Would it be between
season one and season two? But I feel like it
would be really good to just roll into the first
episode of season two because that's where it starts.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I have a feeling I'll have to put some
ground rules.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Down well, that's a problem for future us. That's a
problem for future So today it is very indulgent, just
a couple of as I said, I had to cut
surprisingly because those episodes are pretty long, I had to
cut some things out. But also a couple of you
(03:14):
have requested this, thank you, and we'll be touching on
that a little bit more at the end. But yeah,
also it's twofold. It's both Savannah and I have been
going through kind of a lot of things, and so
this is an easier episode for us, but for me.
(03:38):
But also it's hard for me to express how big
this feels for me, like that I that this season
came out and I got to see it. I don't know, like,
now that it's over, I'm having these kind of reflective
moments of like, oh gosh, you know that was so
(04:00):
important to me, and that I got to wait who
knows how long for the next season. So it is
kind of a big deal to me. I guess that's
what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, it is very big deal, which is why I
said we should do a wrap up, because there's things
you want to say and we can talk about comparisons
and such, so you know, I don't think anybody hates that.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, yeah, And I have to say some of you
did write in and uh, we're like, you know, I've
never seen the show, but I still love these episodes,
and or you convinced me to watch it, and or
you convince me to play it, which I'm like, hey, okay,
why have we not sponsored.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Because they have their own podcast, Danny, But.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, I know, I know, but I am very glad
to hear that. That makes me feel better because sometimes
I'm like, I'm just like screaming into a void of
people who are like, well, you talk about something else now,
But anyway, okay, I recommend that you listen to our
previous episodes, our previous recaps on this season that just ended.
(05:10):
But you know, you do you do, you do you?
But I feel like one thing that I didn't touch
on it's kind of interesting coming from someone who's played
the game as many times as I have versus someone
(05:30):
who has no knowledge is just watching it on TV
for the first time, is that I didn't really even
talk about the cliffhanger, which it obviously is one. It's
a huge cliffhanger, and I think I said in the
first episode I had read reviews. I was very nervous
(05:54):
about this coming out because I knew I knew, oh,
it was going to be controversial. We'll talk about that
in a second. But like I also knew there was
no good place for them to split it. There just
really isn't And we had our theories. Samantha nos I
would just randomly text you and your partner be like,
(06:16):
I think this is where they're going to split it.
But we were pretty sure they were going to split
it there. And I knew based on reviews that it
was very jarring and sudden thing for a lot of people,
and so I was anticipating like being let down, not
(06:37):
because it was bad, but just because of the way
people were like, you know, I loved it until this
point or even like I still love it, but I
didn't like this aspect of it. And so I feel
like I was really relieved, actually, But I think that's
because I'm coming from a place of the gamer who
knows what's to come. So I get that people are
(06:57):
frustrated by it. It is very sudden, very daring, and
it's kind of a big ask to be like, yeah,
now the person who've been telling her you hate this
whole time, you're gonna get her point of view. And
I have to tell you, I the first time I played,
I was mad as who It was so mad because
(07:20):
they did it so well and so it's it took
me a while to come around. And then when I did,
I was like, oh, okay, I get it. Okay, okay, okay.
But I honestly, as someone who's played the game, I
was just like, yes, this is how it is in
the game, and I'm relieved that it's not worse than
(07:41):
how people were making it sound. But I but because
I have the stuff the all, I already know what's
gonna happen. I get it. I get that if you don't,
and I really do recommend you don't spoil yourself if
you can avoid it. That people are frustrated and there
was just over and you don't know what happens. You
(08:04):
don't know what happens to Ellie, Tommy Ardina. So I
wish I had talked about that a little bit more
in our final episode, but because to me, I just know,
it kind of escapes my right. I'm like, oh yeah,
(08:26):
but it was here, and when you play the game,
it's like that too. And I didn't know what was
going to happen, and it takes forever. Listen, the game
is a long game, and it takes a long time
before you get to the resolution of what happened when
Ellie and Abby finally have this confrontation. So I get it,
(08:46):
trust me with you, But I also I know I've
talked about this before, but I just wanted to talk
a little bit about the kind of heart of a
lot of the themes of this game is revenge and justice.
How do you frame that? And I think at the
(09:11):
end of this season there are questions of was this
worth given what Ellie has lost and stands to lose,
but also on Abby's side, given what Abby has lost,
And I am really interested in how they're going to
(09:37):
deal with that because, as I mentioned in our last
episode about the finale, Ellie's characterization is different a little
in the show versus the game. A lot of them
are a lot of them are nicer to be honest
with you than they are in the game, and Ellie
definitely is at least shows more open remorse than she
(10:02):
does in the game, So it feels a little different.
It feels like she's already had a realization that Okay,
this was not worth it. She doesn't have that in
the game at all. But the early marketing of the
show was every path has a price, and it was
(10:26):
a picture of Ellie picture of Abby in a picture
of Joel, and Joel was the one that was looking
over his shoulder because he knew what he had done
and things might come for him, people like Abby might
come for him. But now we have this dynamic of
(10:47):
Ellie and Abby having created similar things. Also, people, I
love this, but everyone knows I loved Last of Us too,
So everyone wants my opinion about it about like everything.
And I have a friend who is watching it, I
(11:09):
think solely for my benefit. I think she likes it,
but she's like, I know, you'll never forgive me if
I don't watch it. I'm like, not really, but but anyway,
she I hung out with her recently and she she
was like, we've talked about it before, so I know
(11:30):
some of her thoughts about the first season, for instance.
But she had a very specific beef about Abby that
I thought was kind of funny, where she was angry
that people weren't angrier at her, like the creators, not
like outside people, and she was saying, you know, in
(11:50):
the post interviews, they never bring up what Abby did,
and I'm like, they will. They're gonna bring up in
her reason when you learn why her friend group is
apparently so fractured when we see them like it was
just kind of funny because then I was explaining to
her how I felt doing these episodes where it's difficult
(12:15):
to talk about her without spoiling things, you know, even
if you're unintentionally just bringing something up. But it was
it was quite funny to me that her complaint was
they weren't mad enough at her, and that complaint actually
has some traction I've seen from people online being angry
(12:38):
that I honestly think a lot of this is just
debate people, but the creators will often say things that
contradict each other, and one of them I who knows,
because like I said, eighty percent of bots have infiltrated
this conversation. But one of the things was that they
(13:01):
were saying that, you know, Abby might be the hero
of the story and people were freaking out. Yeah yeah,
but it was just kind of funny to me that
that was her biggest complaint of the whole thing was
the post interviews weren't angry enough.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So they've never your friend has never seen you go
through a playthrough.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
No, oh, now she I asked her to once and
she said, if you give me enough alcohol. But she
also said that she gets motion sickness watching people play games.
I feel like I'm really good at that, not doing
(13:48):
the thing that makes people motion sick. But I'm not
going to make her do it. You know, if she
don't want to, she doesn't want to. So this is
she's heard me talk about it though, because she's told
me she doesn't care about sports, so she already knew
long when it first came out. I told her the
whole thing, right. Another thing that I forgot to mention,
(14:20):
I did say, people are really interestingly to me angry
that Abby is not buff like she's in the game,
And we're going to talk about that a little bit
more at the end. But and I kind of just
moved on and said, you know, basically, the creators said
there's no need for us to have her be that
buff because it's sort of a plot point that they're
(14:43):
clearly not going to use. But also, it was a
gameplay thing. It was a gameplay style, so you do
play you do play Abby within the first hour of
the game, which is crazy. But then when you switch
to her POV for a long time, she's very different
(15:04):
than Ellie, So it's a way body like her body
type is. So it's a way of differentiating the biting
styles that they have. So she Abby is much less
stealthy but much stronger, and that's just like a way
to differentiate your gameplay style. It's kind of an interesting
(15:25):
thing where like halfway in the game you have to
sort of relearn your strategies. So I think that's one
of the things that I kind of love about this game.
But I think that's one of the reasons that they
were like, well, we don't have to do that because
it's not a game, but it is kind of wild that, Like,
(15:46):
this is one of the things where I kept saying,
it's going to be difficult for them to adapt some
of these things because you go from playing this character
having this goal Ellie hunting Abby, and then you switch
and now you know Ellie is hunting Abby, and you
(16:07):
get these signs that she is around, but Abby doesn't
know it. Of course she doesn't know it, but you do.
So it is it's a very clever like way to
get you you feel on edge even though you're playing
the person that you had just wanted to kill as Elfie,
(16:28):
it's very very interesting to play like the two characters
who are in direct opposition to each other and knowing
that they're both trying to kill each other because you're
your Abby, like find then you're trying to find where
Ellie is at the theater, like, oh, I love it,
(16:53):
I love it. So one of the things that also
we didn't get to talk about too much, but I
think it's going to be interesting in the next season
is this idea of the causes that you believe in
or don't believe in, and in leadership. So we had
(17:15):
that conversation with Isaac Hughes saying, I thought Abby was
going to be the one to take this over. She's
the one that needs to take this over, and she's
not there. She's disappeared. And I think that the idea too,
of people and groups not being monoleiss is going to
(17:36):
be explored, because you know, Abby and her crew just
went to the WLF because they didn't really have anywhere
else to go and they needed the resources, or at
least Abby believed they needed the resources. That the WLF
had to train and hunt down Droll to find Joel,
(18:02):
and so I think that's interesting as a contrast with
Ellie as well, or not. Maybe a similarity is that Ellie,
when she has her speech or she's trying to convince
the Jackson Whole crew to go find Abby and execute her,
(18:23):
she doesn't. I don't think she really believes that. I
think she she was hoping they would say yes, but
really she was like, I don't care. I don't believe
in this whole thing. So we'll see where that goes.
That also brings us to Dina and Ellie's love their romance.
(18:50):
I am not at all surprised that people are calling
it woke. I've always I just have zero surprise of
my heart for that. But I will tell you the
first time I played it. There are some instances wherein
(19:12):
online internet bros call something woke and I don't agree,
but I get what they're saying because it feels forced,
or it feels poorly written, or it feels like a
company that's just trying to signal something. I don't agree,
but I kind of am like, Okay, I see where
this is coming from. I never felt that with the
(19:34):
last times. To me, it felt very natural. I was
very I thought it was sweet. I wanted to tappen.
It didn't even take me out of the story at all.
But the thing is, I also have a liberal bubble,
and I'm trying to be more aware of my like bubbles.
But so to me, it just doesn't I have a
lot of gay friends, so it doesn't seem like, oh,
(20:00):
that's weird. Instead it's like, oh, that's nice. It's like
a well told, fleshed out, complex love story. And I
have been thinking about this for a while. But a lot,
(20:21):
a lot of the angry rhetoric rhetoric I'm sitting on line,
it's like they're trying to use arguments that sound almost rational,
(20:42):
like they're trying to be like some conservative women politicians,
do you, Or they're like, that's not feminist, but really
it's what they're talking about is anti feminist. So Dina
and Ellie's relationship was an interesting example because I read
so many articles that were like they were just basically
(21:04):
dismissing it and saying that it doesn't add anything or
doesn't have depth or all this stuff. They're trying to
make it sound like it's just in here to be
in here, and I don't feel like it is. But
the arguments they were using were very like, this is
actually anti LGBTQ, you know what I mean. Weird, Yeah,
(21:29):
And I don't. I just never felt that. And that's
not to say like no piece of media is perfect,
but I just don't. That wasn't the vibe that I got.
And I think that they're trying to make it sound
like they're being the reasonable ones and actually the ones
that are more knowledgeable about this, But I just I
(21:53):
just don't think it's coming from a good place because
a lot of the a lot of stuff has said
they really loved Dina and they think her characterization is
better in the show than it is in the game,
and they're somehow using that to say that this relationship
(22:14):
isn't a good relationship. I'm kind of confused by the
whole thing, to be honest. But I also had this
thought when I was watching it last night, because I've
seen a lot of people say I just don't want
to see this, I just don't want to see it,
and I think a lot of them were referring to
the very non explicit sex scene, but it just kind
(22:39):
of made me laugh because it runs against the long
standing trope of men wanting to see two women together,
and now that they see it, when it's like a
real relationship, they don't have.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Their case, which is why Dina's more acceptable, because it's
still like what a male will think of a lesbian, right,
what they want, Yeah, I want to think of as
lesbian who is still feminine and cutesy and all that,
and then not that Bella Rameses not but not to
their standard because she's more masculine.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yes, yes, it's just very interesting to me when I'm like, oh,
this is where if it's actually a real thing, right,
you don't like it? I don't actually like it. No.
Another thing I picked up on is this isn't such
(23:31):
a big thing in the game. It is kind of
it's talked about, but they really hammer home the loss
of knowledge in this the loss of knowledge in this world,
the loss of experts, And in the game you do
have moments as the player where you're like, oh, they
don't know what this is, and it's sort of played
(23:52):
almost like darkly funny, like, oh, they don't know what
that is, so I know a show it's very like, oh,
this person has died, maybe no one else left knows
how to do that, which I think is a really
I'm glad they put that in there. I think that's
(24:13):
a pretty devastating way that many of us might not
think about when we think about the end of the world,
to remind you that, Yeah, I mean, what are they
going to do? Is it just going Is this just
like the slow Will there be any recovery, any recovery
from this, or we're just eventually all going to die out?
(24:35):
And I had that moment when I was watching the
scene between Ellie and Mel who Mel was training under
Abby's dad, and Abby's dad was like, really, he was
the believe to be one of the last stone, if
(24:56):
not the last stone person that could have made a vaccine,
so she was like his protege, and she kind of
immediately it's just like asking Ellie to try to save
her baby. Whether it's desperation, whether it's she just is like,
we're all this stuff together, so you're gonna help me
(25:16):
right now, because she knows once she's gone, there's no
one else. There's no one else there, and no one
else with her skill set perhaps, and it's just it's
a real it's a real downer is what it is.
(25:42):
It's it's effective. I think it's effective of reminding you
of the things that are lost that are maybe not
the first big things you think of, but that loss
of knowledge. Okay, so this kind of transitions into some
(26:02):
of the backlash, But first I want to reiterate I
don't be careful what you take is truth. There's a
reason I said in the very first episode of our
mini series that I think the last was to Reddit
(26:25):
is one of the most toxic places on the Internet.
There's a concerted effort to make you think that these
things are true and or just confuse you. But when
the game came out, it was very, very controversial. It
(26:46):
was I don't think I can even explain to you.
You can go online and on YouTube. You can watch
the documentary Grounded, which is about how it got made
for free, and it has a whole bit in there
about how how bad it was. But it was bad.
It was one of those things where if you mentioned
(27:07):
you liked it in conversation you were running kind of
a risk, especially around dudes. But it is one of
the most awarded and critically acclaimed games of all time.
It is one of the best selling games of all time.
So I think that is a reminder that you know,
(27:30):
these things you hear online sometimes get really amplified, but
they have to, I mean the truth if we're talking
about sales. And by the way, some people are like,
that's just all pre orders. And then when I found
out I didn't like it, but no, because the sales
saw boost and they continuously sell. And then when like
(27:50):
the Rebaster remake came out, whatever it was, we were
all mad about it. We all bought it. Anyway, like
people still like it, and this show is the same.
The sales actually went up after the show came out,
which I'm interested in because I guess it's people wanting
to find out how what happens next. That brings us
(28:26):
to our listener mail we received, especially one from Margaret.
We got one from Margaret and Kelsey about kind of
these things, and Margaret was like, you know, I've never
played a video game before, but you've convinced me to
do it, and I wished me luck, and I'm wishing
you luck, Margaret, because this is a very Actually I
(28:48):
don't think the game is hard. I think it's pretty good.
But I was talking to good in terms of like
ease of controls. But I was talking about I was
talking to a friend about this the other day and
she was like, sometimes I feel like gamers just overestimate
how much knowledge you just have, and as non gamers
do so like X normally does this or swear normally
(29:11):
does this, like across a bunch of games. And she
was talking about how she felt embarrassed to even try
because her partner is trying to get her to play
games outside of like Mario Kart, and she was just saying, like,
it just makes me tense and I can't. I feel
like he's taking for granted that I don't know what
(29:31):
he's talking about. So I think that's a very fair point.
I hope that it is a good experience for you,
but if not, if you just decide it's not for you,
there are plenty of videos online you can watch a gameplay.
As I've said, maybe one day mine will be up there.
But I'm very interested to hear how your journey goes,
(29:56):
and I hope it goes well. But it is I mean,
it's one of those games games where like a lot
of people start on something maybe not as you know,
not as complicated as the last of us too, but
I really hope it goes well. And there are a
bunch of settings by the way, you can turn on
or turn off that'll be like press square whatever, so
(30:20):
just know, and difficulty modes like if I'm trying to
beat it fast, I played on light and I have
no regrets or embarrassment about it, then okay. So it
is hard to talk about some of this stuff, and
some of it I'm sure those of you who are
more aware or like, why haven't you talked about some
(30:41):
of these aspects yet? It's because it's really hard to
talk about this whole thing without spoiling it. It's meant
to be played as a whole story and then in
my opinion, literally played again. But here we go. So, yes,
the game had this huge backlash. It was massive. I
don't think I really have to explain what it was,
(31:02):
but essentially it was dudes being like, hey, you took
our main Manjol tried to make him into I guess
in their minds some kind of villain, which I don't
think that's true, but in their minds like make him
look bad then a make his play as Elie, who
(31:24):
now doesn't seem to even like Joel, Oh my god,
and then you have the gall to make us play
as abby And there's a lot of anti trans stuff
that will get towards when we get to her season.
That happened around that because she was so buff and
they were just furious. They were furious. There were death threats.
(31:46):
It was like, I mean, I wouldn't like I said.
It was one of those things where I had to
trust you. If I even bring up that I loved it,
it was bad news. So when the show came out,
I already knew there was gonna be backlash. So it's
(32:06):
to me, I was like, yep, I remember what happened
when the game came out. This is no surprise. I
am disappointed. I am not at all surprised. I think
that a lot of things are fueling this narrative that
(32:29):
everyone's everyone hated it, or everybody's angry about it or whatever.
I don't think it's true personally, That's not been my experience,
but I do think there's a lot of like thoughts
and just really angry people who are fueling it. And
(32:53):
it's fascinating to me because a lot of the things
I've been seeing are gamers who are mad that it's
not like the game, but they hated the game, and
so I'm like, guess you hated that in the game,
and now they changed it, and now you're mad about it.
(33:14):
I think they want to be proven correct. I think
they're like a lot of them are really angry because
they think that Ellie was characterized much as I said,
much nicer, Like everybody's kind of a gentler characterization of
themselves in the show than they are in the game,
(33:34):
at least on the front. And I think they were
mad because they were like, no, I want you to
do what they did in the game so I could
be like, see, see how terrible it is. And I
have been really disappointed in a lot of women who
are mad both that Pedro Pascal got killed off, which
(33:58):
I get at her, at Ellie because they're usually they
say she's an ungrateful or something like that, which it's
I get you're supposed to. All the characters in the
Last of Us are complicated, like there are at times
when I was angry at Ellie too, but I don't
(34:21):
think we're giving like a fair shape to what happens
and why she was angry and how young she is
and all of that stuff, and I get it because
Joel's Pimpedro Pascal is so nice and when scenes we
see with them together are very sweet, but I think
(34:43):
we have to take in the reality of it. And
some people have complained that I'm too forgiving to Ellie
and Abby and not enough to Joel, and I don't
think that's true at all. I think I'm just more
vocal about Abby and Ellie because Joel doesn't need it.
Joel does not need my protection because people generally are
(35:08):
on his side, and I get why, and I like
him as a character, but I also just think we
have to take in the realities of who he is
if we're going to take in the realities of everybody
else and the reality of what he did. And you
can come out on either side of that whatever however
(35:31):
you feel about it, but I just don't. I feel
like we're not giving a lot of the women characters
the same space and that if you don't mind potentially
being spoiled. Is something that we talked about in our
Women in Survival Horror Games episode and how I felt
(35:51):
like women in Revenge we don't give them the same
space that we do men in Revenge and I mean
that's part of the complication as well, is that Joel's
story is sort of a I don't know, I guess
(36:15):
some people would call it like a he a rescue story,
like he's protecting this young girl, and then almost kind
of a redemption story. But I think we talked about
that who gets redemption as well and our women in
Forgiveness episode who do we allow these redemption arcs? And
(36:36):
who do we not? So all that to say, I
was not surprised, and I, to be honest with you,
didn't engage in it at all. I haven't been on
social media in a long time, and this is one
of the reasons. A lot of the fandoms I love
(36:57):
are very toxic, and I just don't It wasn't a
good use of my energy. So I knew it was
going to happen. I knew it was happening, but I
kind of distance myself from it, like I didn't want
(37:19):
that to kind of taint my experience. But I know
it was huge. I've gotten Google alerts about it because
every they all know I love the Last of Us,
so I get updates about it, and you know, even
the creators said, we know people are going to be mad,
and they've had to release several statements lately about it.
(37:42):
But they also were like, this is the story and
we don't want to we don't want to compromise on it.
And I'm glad they didn't because I love the story.
But it does suck because it is something that people
put a lot of hard work into you, and in
this case, we're getting two main casting backlashes, which is
(38:07):
Bella Ramsey and Caitlyn Deaver Ellien Abbey. I honestly, I
think they both did a wonderful job. There's I don't.
There's no part of me that it's like this is miscast.
But I did read some interesting articles about Bella Ramsey
being quote miscast and how it actually creates an interesting opportunity.
(38:30):
From what I can gather, most of these arguments are physical.
They're all about appearance, and again, I just feel like
if you're pretty close to the character, then I don't
I don't care for doing a good at acting job
and the characters being created and being cared for. I
(38:53):
don't really care. But honestly, most of it and people
you can write in and correct me if I'm wrong,
because a lot of the like I said is very hateful,
and I've been avoiding it, like purposefully avoiding it because
I've heard it. I heard it when the game came out,
and I just didn't want to. I don't want to
deal with it. But from what I can tell, it's
(39:16):
mostly about physicality, and like I said, people are a
little they're annoyed that they I think they feel like
they're the characterizations of Appy and Ellie are quote nicer,
which I think that there's a lot of reasons why
(39:37):
that might be, but one of them is just the
the way show, the media of a show works versus
the media of a game. But also they knew there
was going to be this huge backlash so they were
trying to preempt it in some ways. And as I said,
they on their next game, Naughty Dog's Next game, which
(39:58):
is the studio behind the last, but they even have
a boot camp for dealing with this kind of which
is so unfortunate. I'm glad that they're like taking steps,
but I hate that that's a thing at all. And
then one of the things listener Margaret brought up too
(40:19):
is that they're trying to be like so many people
stopped watching after Joel died which is possible. There's been
like a lot of mixed, mixed news reports about that,
and actually, surprisingly, streaming services are real cagy about how
much how many people are watching their shows. And I
(40:41):
think two years ago there was a whole like push
to get Netflix in particular, to release their data.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Didn't they do a whole like lawsuit trying to hire
their data or at least because they were doing something
really yeah, like that's not right and they were counting
like barely seconds type of thing.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yes, yeah, so, and you know, to be honest, we
can speak to that, yes, podcasters. Yeah, well, because that
they constantly are changing how they calculate what counts as
a listener, what counts as a watch. So I mean again,
I would just say take these things with a grain
(41:20):
of salts. I know, HBO released a statement about it
and they were like, nah, we're good, but who knows.
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, But I'm also like,
I wouldn't be surprised if it's being way over exaggerated.
Are just not true at all, or they don't have
(41:42):
they have no idea, because honestly, I tried to look
into it and I just found so many different things,
so who knows. I know it's it's kind of hard
to avoid if you're if you're on social media. I
just know it's hard to avoid. But I would suggests
like a lot of that is blown up. A lot
(42:03):
of that is like Echo Chamber. It exists, one thousand percent.
It exists, and it's not small, but it's not as
big as I think people are making it out to be.
Like I said, the game is like sold more than
almost any game like it's I wish it would go away.
(42:25):
I'm trying to think of things I could do. I
don't know, need to whole different internet landscape, I guess,
but I just take things with this knowledge in hand
that they want you to think everyone hates it, and
I'm here to tell you that it's not true and
(42:46):
I am not alone. So yes, anyway, I hope that
kind of answers question. I could have looked into it
like Bore specifically, maybe I will in the future, but
I was just like, I don't want to deal with
these I don't want to. I just don't think it's
(43:11):
I know why it's gotten so much hate. They think
it's it's woke and they're mad about Joel and they're
really angry about the LGBTQ plus representation, So I guess
I just wasn't surprised. We did talk about it a
(43:31):
little bit, I think in the episode episode seven, no
episode five, if you want to hear more about it.
But that's kind of why I know it's a big deal,
but that's kind of why we didn't really bring it
up that much other than that episode. But yeah, I
do recommend that documentary if you're curious grounded on to
(43:53):
find it on YouTube. Also, I think that kind of enclosing,
as I said, my dad had died not too long
(44:14):
before this, after this came out, before this came out,
and I think when I watch it and when I
play it, it's so interesting to me because it does
feel like I'm processing grief and that's the power of
(44:37):
good storytelling and kind of all the things, the phases
that you go through, and how devastating and destructive some
of them can be. Even before, because our relationship had
deteriorated so poorly, I started saying things to him that
(45:01):
I meant to hurt meant to hurt him, and you know,
you look back and you're like, wow, I wish I'd
never said that one. But so when I maybe that's
one of the reasons I'm so sympathetic to Ellie when
she is being a brat, Like I get it, you
(45:22):
kind of lash out in these ways, especially if there's
like a secret no one's talking about, or at least
specifically in this case, which was what was going on.
And then you're going to see on Abby's side, what
I think is actually a really great representation of healing
(45:43):
from trauma. Again, it's so hard to talk about this
without spoiling anything, but just just that they have a
good visual that they use that I think I can't
wait to talk about. But this does bring us to
a little bonus. It's a little bit of a downer
(46:03):
as well, but it is Father's Day coming up. I
often joke about how I have like these sad traditions
around Father's Day. Anyone who's suffering, I know it stuff,
and I make light of things. That's just how I
deal with it. So I understand it's really difficult, but
(46:24):
I find it really I was thinking about this because
my well, my dad died. My hyperfixation was on how
to train your dragon. I have no idea where that
came from. We had no connection over this. I don't
even know if he'd seen it, but it just happened
and it became like my whole life. For months, I
(46:48):
read all the books, I watch all the shows, all
the movies people got me like how to Train Your
Dragon gifts, I went as Hiccup to Dragon con like
it was my whole life. And then it's just one
day went way, which is how a lot of hyperfixation works.
(47:09):
But the live action movie is coming out, which by
the way, has Nico Parker, who is Joel's daughter Sarah
and the Last of Us connections connections, and people have
been asking me, are you going to see it? And
I'm like, I want to see it, but I'm so
associated with my dad's death now, so I have to
(47:29):
be in a good place. But it's really funny to
me that I don't associate the Last of Us two
with my dad's death, even though all the time I'm
thinking about, like, I get why this game resonated with
me so much when it came out. But that brings
us to the sad fact How to Train Your Dragon
(47:52):
fandom is somehow sharing itself a part two, and it's
mostly because basically they cast a black woman. Oh, I mean,
I don't know, that's my opinion, but they're saying like
it's not historically accurate or whatever, and I just don't
(48:13):
again why.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Because dragons obviously accurate training them.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yes, So it's just I'm like, why can't why can't
you just stop it? Just stop it if you don't
like it, you don't like it, but you don't have
to do this.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Some peoples hobbies is just hate, make some joy to fight,
give them some kind of adrenaline.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, I know. I will say that I have a
friend like that, and I do avoid a lot of
conversations about things like this with with them, But I
also have I've had a couple of friends I've said,
we're When I told them that the last of us
whoose my favorite game? They're like, oh, I hate it
for X, Y and Z. And I was like, play
(48:58):
it again, and they did. And then neighb are like,
you know, okay, you were right because it's so jarring
the first time. It really really is, just because you
have this anticipation of where the story is going to
go and then it doesn't go that way at all,
and it's shocking, and so you kind of are like constantly.
(49:19):
When I remember when you first turned to Abby, I
kept thinking, when am we gonna turn back when? And
they were like nope, like no, But then I loved it,
like I go, but you have to kind of have
that moment of like, Okay, I have to accept this,
And I did say when I did the I think
(49:42):
it was when the newest version came out of the
game and I was talking about empathy and how I
found it really interesting that most of my women friends
who have played it have come to a very empathetic place,
and most of the men I see online who are
(50:02):
mad neverver ever even think about empathy, are like, no
way will I ever see this from this another person's
point of view ever. But the point being that sometimes
I have had some people in my life who were
(50:25):
real mad about Last of Us too. Then I just
was like, nope, go play it, and now they've kind
of backed off. So I hope that there are some
people online like that. But I do think you're right
that there's some people that are just they just want
to piss people off. They want to see that those
(50:47):
angry replies are people who agree with them, And I
do think a lot of it is about wanting to
get people agree that you are right. They should never
have done this with the Last of Us too, And
in fact, the voice actor Troy Baker, who played Joel,
has done and in interviews he said he gets really
(51:10):
frustrated because people come up to him and they were like,
it was so wrong what they did to you. They
never should have done that. And his go to question is,
then tell me a better story. What's the story you're
going to tell? And he says, they never have it answered.
And even my mom she kind of jokingly was like,
(51:32):
how could they do that to patri Pascal. He basically
she's sort of saying like he needs a job, and
I'm like, he's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
He purposely picked this because he knew he was going
to die.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
That's all I think.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
I think said that he said I read the script,
I died.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Right, because I think and I know it's still sad.
He's still sad to have lost like a character that
he cared about. But I think he's probably nice as
an actor to be like, Okay, I know when I'm
out and I can do these different projects, I can
mind up and guess what he's in a Marble movie.
He's got like four other movies out right now. He's fine.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
He's fine, he doesn't care. He knew what he was
getting into and he liked it.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
He did. And I mean, if we're gonna talk about
like character differences, he definitely, like I said in one
of the I think episode six, it was interesting to
hear him who's never played the game, talk about how
he views Joel, and I was like, Oh, I like this.
It's definitely not how I view It's a much nicer take.
(52:42):
But okay, I've just rambled so long. It was supposed
to be a question and answer, and then I just
went on.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
She did an out line, y'all. I didn't have any
questions because she did an outline. Oh she's prepared. I'm good.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
If I see an outline. She's got a thought process.
I have so many thoughts, and I'm sure, like this
will be it for a while, but I'm sure I'll
come back and have more thoughts and we'll talk more
about the toxic fandom part of it. But for now,
I just want to say thank you to the listeners
(53:17):
who have written in and have been supportive, and I
love how many of you are like I get this
Joel thing. But Bella Ramsey's right there. Like, I love
how many of you are being very supportive of these characters. Yes,
who gets so much online hate? So thank you and
I love hearing from you. And if you email me
(53:39):
about it, I will send you along email in response
about my thoughts, so be prepared, be prepared. But all right,
that's it for now. If you would like to email us,
you can. You can email us at Hello at stuff
iever Told You dot com. You can also find us
on Blue Sky also a podcast, or on Instagram and
TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You for us on YouTube,
(54:00):
tea public store, and we have a book you can
get wherever you get your books things. As always too
our super reduced Christina expect to producer My and your
contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening
Stuff I Never Told You production by Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check out
the Heart Radio ap Apple Podcasts or where you listen
to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Anny and SMITHA. I'm welcome to Steffan.
I never told you PRODUCTU if I heart radio, and
welcome to our hinted at the Last of Us Season
two wrap up once again, not a sponsor. If I
(00:30):
had control, things would be different. But whatever, and you
will get spoiled. On the most recent season of the
Last of Us, the first season, the first game, parts
of the second game, VY hints at what's to come,
So I'll just put that out there. I have a
(00:51):
whole section here where I'm going to complain about how
hard this is to talk about without spoiling things. But
this is a very indulgent thing because it is one
of my very favorite It's my very favorite game of
all time, and I love the show. I rewatched. I
did the whole rewatch last night.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Oh, including the first season.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
No, I didn't. I haven't had time to do that
because wow, if you've listened to the show, you know
me and Samantha have gone through some we've had some
things come up, We've had things, We've had some things
come up. So I haven't had time to do that yet.
But I did do in preparation for this the whole
second season for the first time, and it was cool,
(01:32):
like because it's really fun. I've said before I love
the anticipation, the guessing of what's coming next time, the
next episode. But it was cool knowing what was coming
and just being able to like have it continuously go
and it moves quickly like the first one. The first
(01:55):
season moves quickly, but the second one not just because
it's shorter in episodes, but I think because they're moving,
they're covering so much ground so quickly that I was like, oh,
it's over already, wall they did that much. Wow. Anyway,
I had a great time. I can't wait to do
(02:15):
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Right if you are trying to plan to do one
day when when the stars aligned, when.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
The stars aligned, because that would be sixteen hours, sixteen hours, hoof.
I could do it.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I know you could. The question is would you take
a break?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I know that's what I'm like, would you take a
pause between? Where would it be? Would it be between
season one and season two? But I feel like it
would be really good to just roll into the first
episode of season two because that's where it starts.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, I have a feeling I'll have to put some
ground rules.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Down well, that's a problem for future us. That's a
problem for future So today it is very indulgent, just
a couple of as I said, I had to cut
surprisingly because those episodes are pretty long, I had to
cut some things out. But also a couple of you
(03:14):
have requested this, thank you, and we'll be touching on
that a little bit more at the end. But yeah,
also it's twofold. It's both Savannah and I have been
going through kind of a lot of things, and so
this is an easier episode for us, but for me.
(03:38):
But also it's hard for me to express how big
this feels for me, like that I that this season
came out and I got to see it. I don't know, like,
now that it's over, I'm having these kind of reflective
moments of like, oh gosh, you know that was so
(04:00):
important to me, and that I got to wait who
knows how long for the next season. So it is
kind of a big deal to me. I guess that's
what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, it is very big deal, which is why I
said we should do a wrap up, because there's things
you want to say and we can talk about comparisons
and such, so you know, I don't think anybody hates that.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, yeah, And I have to say some of you
did write in and uh, we're like, you know, I've
never seen the show, but I still love these episodes,
and or you convinced me to watch it, and or
you convince me to play it, which I'm like, hey, okay,
why have we not sponsored.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Because they have their own podcast, Danny, But.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, I know, I know, but I am very glad
to hear that. That makes me feel better because sometimes
I'm like, I'm just like screaming into a void of
people who are like, well, you talk about something else now,
But anyway, okay, I recommend that you listen to our
previous episodes, our previous recaps on this season that just ended.
(05:10):
But you know, you do you do, you do you?
But I feel like one thing that I didn't touch
on it's kind of interesting coming from someone who's played
the game as many times as I have versus someone
(05:30):
who has no knowledge is just watching it on TV
for the first time, is that I didn't really even
talk about the cliffhanger, which it obviously is one. It's
a huge cliffhanger, and I think I said in the
first episode I had read reviews. I was very nervous
(05:54):
about this coming out because I knew I knew, oh,
it was going to be controversial. We'll talk about that
in a second. But like I also knew there was
no good place for them to split it. There just
really isn't And we had our theories. Samantha nos I
would just randomly text you and your partner be like,
(06:16):
I think this is where they're going to split it.
But we were pretty sure they were going to split
it there. And I knew based on reviews that it
was very jarring and sudden thing for a lot of people,
and so I was anticipating like being let down, not
(06:37):
because it was bad, but just because of the way
people were like, you know, I loved it until this
point or even like I still love it, but I
didn't like this aspect of it. And so I feel
like I was really relieved, actually, But I think that's
because I'm coming from a place of the gamer who
knows what's to come. So I get that people are
(06:57):
frustrated by it. It is very sudden, very daring, and
it's kind of a big ask to be like, yeah,
now the person who've been telling her you hate this
whole time, you're gonna get her point of view. And
I have to tell you, I the first time I played,
I was mad as who It was so mad because
(07:20):
they did it so well and so it's it took
me a while to come around. And then when I did,
I was like, oh, okay, I get it. Okay, okay, okay.
But I honestly, as someone who's played the game, I
was just like, yes, this is how it is in
the game, and I'm relieved that it's not worse than
(07:41):
how people were making it sound. But I but because
I have the stuff the all, I already know what's
gonna happen. I get it. I get that if you don't,
and I really do recommend you don't spoil yourself if
you can avoid it. That people are frustrated and there
was just over and you don't know what happens. You
(08:04):
don't know what happens to Ellie, Tommy Ardina. So I
wish I had talked about that a little bit more
in our final episode, but because to me, I just know,
it kind of escapes my right. I'm like, oh yeah,
(08:26):
but it was here, and when you play the game,
it's like that too. And I didn't know what was
going to happen, and it takes forever. Listen, the game
is a long game, and it takes a long time
before you get to the resolution of what happened when
Ellie and Abby finally have this confrontation. So I get it,
(08:46):
trust me with you, But I also I know I've
talked about this before, but I just wanted to talk
a little bit about the kind of heart of a
lot of the themes of this game is revenge and justice.
How do you frame that? And I think at the
(09:11):
end of this season there are questions of was this
worth given what Ellie has lost and stands to lose,
but also on Abby's side, given what Abby has lost,
And I am really interested in how they're going to
(09:37):
deal with that because, as I mentioned in our last
episode about the finale, Ellie's characterization is different a little
in the show versus the game. A lot of them
are a lot of them are nicer to be honest
with you than they are in the game, and Ellie
definitely is at least shows more open remorse than she
(10:02):
does in the game, So it feels a little different.
It feels like she's already had a realization that Okay,
this was not worth it. She doesn't have that in
the game at all. But the early marketing of the
show was every path has a price, and it was
(10:26):
a picture of Ellie picture of Abby in a picture
of Joel, and Joel was the one that was looking
over his shoulder because he knew what he had done
and things might come for him, people like Abby might
come for him. But now we have this dynamic of
(10:47):
Ellie and Abby having created similar things. Also, people, I
love this, but everyone knows I loved Last of Us too,
So everyone wants my opinion about it about like everything.
And I have a friend who is watching it, I
(11:09):
think solely for my benefit. I think she likes it,
but she's like, I know, you'll never forgive me if
I don't watch it. I'm like, not really, but but anyway,
she I hung out with her recently and she she
was like, we've talked about it before, so I know
(11:30):
some of her thoughts about the first season, for instance.
But she had a very specific beef about Abby that
I thought was kind of funny, where she was angry
that people weren't angrier at her, like the creators, not
like outside people, and she was saying, you know, in
(11:50):
the post interviews, they never bring up what Abby did,
and I'm like, they will. They're gonna bring up in
her reason when you learn why her friend group is
apparently so fractured when we see them like it was
just kind of funny because then I was explaining to
her how I felt doing these episodes where it's difficult
(12:15):
to talk about her without spoiling things, you know, even
if you're unintentionally just bringing something up. But it was
it was quite funny to me that her complaint was
they weren't mad enough at her, and that complaint actually
has some traction I've seen from people online being angry
(12:38):
that I honestly think a lot of this is just
debate people, but the creators will often say things that
contradict each other, and one of them I who knows,
because like I said, eighty percent of bots have infiltrated
this conversation. But one of the things was that they
(13:01):
were saying that, you know, Abby might be the hero
of the story and people were freaking out. Yeah yeah,
but it was just kind of funny to me that
that was her biggest complaint of the whole thing was
the post interviews weren't angry enough.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So they've never your friend has never seen you go
through a playthrough.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
No, oh, now she I asked her to once and
she said, if you give me enough alcohol. But she
also said that she gets motion sickness watching people play games.
I feel like I'm really good at that, not doing
(13:48):
the thing that makes people motion sick. But I'm not
going to make her do it. You know, if she
don't want to, she doesn't want to. So this is
she's heard me talk about it though, because she's told
me she doesn't care about sports, so she already knew
long when it first came out. I told her the
whole thing, right. Another thing that I forgot to mention,
(14:20):
I did say, people are really interestingly to me angry
that Abby is not buff like she's in the game,
And we're going to talk about that a little bit
more at the end. But and I kind of just
moved on and said, you know, basically, the creators said
there's no need for us to have her be that
buff because it's sort of a plot point that they're
(14:43):
clearly not going to use. But also, it was a
gameplay thing. It was a gameplay style, so you do
play you do play Abby within the first hour of
the game, which is crazy. But then when you switch
to her POV for a long time, she's very different
(15:04):
than Ellie, So it's a way body like her body
type is. So it's a way of differentiating the biting
styles that they have. So she Abby is much less
stealthy but much stronger, and that's just like a way
to differentiate your gameplay style. It's kind of an interesting
(15:25):
thing where like halfway in the game you have to
sort of relearn your strategies. So I think that's one
of the things that I kind of love about this game.
But I think that's one of the reasons that they
were like, well, we don't have to do that because
it's not a game, but it is kind of wild that, Like,
(15:46):
this is one of the things where I kept saying,
it's going to be difficult for them to adapt some
of these things because you go from playing this character
having this goal Ellie hunting Abby, and then you switch
and now you know Ellie is hunting Abby, and you
(16:07):
get these signs that she is around, but Abby doesn't
know it. Of course she doesn't know it, but you do.
So it is it's a very clever like way to
get you you feel on edge even though you're playing
the person that you had just wanted to kill as Elfie,
(16:28):
it's very very interesting to play like the two characters
who are in direct opposition to each other and knowing
that they're both trying to kill each other because you're
your Abby, like find then you're trying to find where
Ellie is at the theater, like, oh, I love it,
(16:53):
I love it. So one of the things that also
we didn't get to talk about too much, but I
think it's going to be interesting in the next season
is this idea of the causes that you believe in
or don't believe in, and in leadership. So we had
(17:15):
that conversation with Isaac Hughes saying, I thought Abby was
going to be the one to take this over. She's
the one that needs to take this over, and she's
not there. She's disappeared. And I think that the idea too,
of people and groups not being monoleiss is going to
(17:36):
be explored, because you know, Abby and her crew just
went to the WLF because they didn't really have anywhere
else to go and they needed the resources, or at
least Abby believed they needed the resources. That the WLF
had to train and hunt down Droll to find Joel,
(18:02):
and so I think that's interesting as a contrast with
Ellie as well, or not. Maybe a similarity is that Ellie,
when she has her speech or she's trying to convince
the Jackson Whole crew to go find Abby and execute her,
(18:23):
she doesn't. I don't think she really believes that. I
think she she was hoping they would say yes, but
really she was like, I don't care. I don't believe
in this whole thing. So we'll see where that goes.
That also brings us to Dina and Ellie's love their romance.
(18:50):
I am not at all surprised that people are calling
it woke. I've always I just have zero surprise of
my heart for that. But I will tell you the
first time I played it. There are some instances wherein
(19:12):
online internet bros call something woke and I don't agree,
but I get what they're saying because it feels forced,
or it feels poorly written, or it feels like a
company that's just trying to signal something. I don't agree,
but I kind of am like, Okay, I see where
this is coming from. I never felt that with the
(19:34):
last times. To me, it felt very natural. I was
very I thought it was sweet. I wanted to tappen.
It didn't even take me out of the story at all.
But the thing is, I also have a liberal bubble,
and I'm trying to be more aware of my like bubbles.
But so to me, it just doesn't I have a
lot of gay friends, so it doesn't seem like, oh,
(20:00):
that's weird. Instead it's like, oh, that's nice. It's like
a well told, fleshed out, complex love story. And I
have been thinking about this for a while. But a lot,
(20:21):
a lot of the angry rhetoric rhetoric I'm sitting on line,
it's like they're trying to use arguments that sound almost rational,
(20:42):
like they're trying to be like some conservative women politicians,
do you, Or they're like, that's not feminist, but really
it's what they're talking about is anti feminist. So Dina
and Ellie's relationship was an interesting example because I read
so many articles that were like they were just basically
(21:04):
dismissing it and saying that it doesn't add anything or
doesn't have depth or all this stuff. They're trying to
make it sound like it's just in here to be
in here, and I don't feel like it is. But
the arguments they were using were very like, this is
actually anti LGBTQ, you know what I mean. Weird, Yeah,
(21:29):
And I don't. I just never felt that. And that's
not to say like no piece of media is perfect,
but I just don't. That wasn't the vibe that I got.
And I think that they're trying to make it sound
like they're being the reasonable ones and actually the ones
that are more knowledgeable about this, But I just I
(21:53):
just don't think it's coming from a good place because
a lot of the a lot of stuff has said
they really loved Dina and they think her characterization is
better in the show than it is in the game,
and they're somehow using that to say that this relationship
(22:14):
isn't a good relationship. I'm kind of confused by the
whole thing, to be honest. But I also had this
thought when I was watching it last night, because I've
seen a lot of people say I just don't want
to see this, I just don't want to see it,
and I think a lot of them were referring to
the very non explicit sex scene, but it just kind
(22:39):
of made me laugh because it runs against the long
standing trope of men wanting to see two women together,
and now that they see it, when it's like a
real relationship, they don't have.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Their case, which is why Dina's more acceptable, because it's
still like what a male will think of a lesbian, right,
what they want, Yeah, I want to think of as
lesbian who is still feminine and cutesy and all that,
and then not that Bella Rameses not but not to
their standard because she's more masculine.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yes, yes, it's just very interesting to me when I'm like, oh,
this is where if it's actually a real thing, right,
you don't like it? I don't actually like it. No.
Another thing I picked up on is this isn't such
(23:31):
a big thing in the game. It is kind of
it's talked about, but they really hammer home the loss
of knowledge in this the loss of knowledge in this world,
the loss of experts, And in the game you do
have moments as the player where you're like, oh, they
don't know what this is, and it's sort of played
(23:52):
almost like darkly funny, like, oh, they don't know what
that is, so I know a show it's very like, oh,
this person has died, maybe no one else left knows
how to do that, which I think is a really
I'm glad they put that in there. I think that's
(24:13):
a pretty devastating way that many of us might not
think about when we think about the end of the world,
to remind you that, Yeah, I mean, what are they
going to do? Is it just going Is this just
like the slow Will there be any recovery, any recovery
from this, or we're just eventually all going to die out?
(24:35):
And I had that moment when I was watching the
scene between Ellie and Mel who Mel was training under
Abby's dad, and Abby's dad was like, really, he was
the believe to be one of the last stone, if
(24:56):
not the last stone person that could have made a vaccine,
so she was like his protege, and she kind of
immediately it's just like asking Ellie to try to save
her baby. Whether it's desperation, whether it's she just is like,
we're all this stuff together, so you're gonna help me
(25:16):
right now, because she knows once she's gone, there's no
one else. There's no one else there, and no one
else with her skill set perhaps, and it's just it's
a real it's a real downer is what it is.
(25:42):
It's it's effective. I think it's effective of reminding you
of the things that are lost that are maybe not
the first big things you think of, but that loss
of knowledge. Okay, so this kind of transitions into some
(26:02):
of the backlash, But first I want to reiterate I
don't be careful what you take is truth. There's a
reason I said in the very first episode of our
mini series that I think the last was to Reddit
(26:25):
is one of the most toxic places on the Internet.
There's a concerted effort to make you think that these
things are true and or just confuse you. But when
the game came out, it was very, very controversial. It
(26:46):
was I don't think I can even explain to you.
You can go online and on YouTube. You can watch
the documentary Grounded, which is about how it got made
for free, and it has a whole bit in there
about how how bad it was. But it was bad.
It was one of those things where if you mentioned
(27:07):
you liked it in conversation you were running kind of
a risk, especially around dudes. But it is one of
the most awarded and critically acclaimed games of all time.
It is one of the best selling games of all time.
So I think that is a reminder that you know,
(27:30):
these things you hear online sometimes get really amplified, but
they have to, I mean the truth if we're talking
about sales. And by the way, some people are like,
that's just all pre orders. And then when I found
out I didn't like it, but no, because the sales
saw boost and they continuously sell. And then when like
(27:50):
the Rebaster remake came out, whatever it was, we were
all mad about it. We all bought it. Anyway, like
people still like it, and this show is the same.
The sales actually went up after the show came out,
which I'm interested in because I guess it's people wanting
to find out how what happens next. That brings us
(28:26):
to our listener mail we received, especially one from Margaret.
We got one from Margaret and Kelsey about kind of
these things, and Margaret was like, you know, I've never
played a video game before, but you've convinced me to
do it, and I wished me luck, and I'm wishing
you luck, Margaret, because this is a very Actually I
(28:48):
don't think the game is hard. I think it's pretty good.
But I was talking to good in terms of like
ease of controls. But I was talking about I was
talking to a friend about this the other day and
she was like, sometimes I feel like gamers just overestimate
how much knowledge you just have, and as non gamers
do so like X normally does this or swear normally
(29:11):
does this, like across a bunch of games. And she
was talking about how she felt embarrassed to even try
because her partner is trying to get her to play
games outside of like Mario Kart, and she was just saying, like,
it just makes me tense and I can't. I feel
like he's taking for granted that I don't know what
(29:31):
he's talking about. So I think that's a very fair point.
I hope that it is a good experience for you,
but if not, if you just decide it's not for you,
there are plenty of videos online you can watch a gameplay.
As I've said, maybe one day mine will be up there.
But I'm very interested to hear how your journey goes,
(29:56):
and I hope it goes well. But it is I mean,
it's one of those games games where like a lot
of people start on something maybe not as you know,
not as complicated as the last of us too, but
I really hope it goes well. And there are a
bunch of settings by the way, you can turn on
or turn off that'll be like press square whatever, so
(30:20):
just know, and difficulty modes like if I'm trying to
beat it fast, I played on light and I have
no regrets or embarrassment about it, then okay. So it
is hard to talk about some of this stuff, and
some of it I'm sure those of you who are
more aware or like, why haven't you talked about some
(30:41):
of these aspects yet? It's because it's really hard to
talk about this whole thing without spoiling it. It's meant
to be played as a whole story and then in
my opinion, literally played again. But here we go. So, yes,
the game had this huge backlash. It was massive. I
don't think I really have to explain what it was,
(31:02):
but essentially it was dudes being like, hey, you took
our main Manjol tried to make him into I guess
in their minds some kind of villain, which I don't
think that's true, but in their minds like make him
look bad then a make his play as Elie, who
(31:24):
now doesn't seem to even like Joel, Oh my god,
and then you have the gall to make us play
as abby And there's a lot of anti trans stuff
that will get towards when we get to her season.
That happened around that because she was so buff and
they were just furious. They were furious. There were death threats.
(31:46):
It was like, I mean, I wouldn't like I said.
It was one of those things where I had to
trust you. If I even bring up that I loved it,
it was bad news. So when the show came out,
I already knew there was gonna be backlash. So it's
(32:06):
to me, I was like, yep, I remember what happened
when the game came out. This is no surprise. I
am disappointed. I am not at all surprised. I think
that a lot of things are fueling this narrative that
(32:29):
everyone's everyone hated it, or everybody's angry about it or whatever.
I don't think it's true personally, That's not been my experience,
but I do think there's a lot of like thoughts
and just really angry people who are fueling it. And
(32:53):
it's fascinating to me because a lot of the things
I've been seeing are gamers who are mad that it's
not like the game, but they hated the game, and
so I'm like, guess you hated that in the game,
and now they changed it, and now you're mad about it.
(33:14):
I think they want to be proven correct. I think
they're like a lot of them are really angry because
they think that Ellie was characterized much as I said,
much nicer, Like everybody's kind of a gentler characterization of
themselves in the show than they are in the game,
(33:34):
at least on the front. And I think they were
mad because they were like, no, I want you to
do what they did in the game so I could
be like, see, see how terrible it is. And I
have been really disappointed in a lot of women who
are mad both that Pedro Pascal got killed off, which
(33:58):
I get at her, at Ellie because they're usually they
say she's an ungrateful or something like that, which it's
I get you're supposed to. All the characters in the
Last of Us are complicated, like there are at times
when I was angry at Ellie too, but I don't
(34:21):
think we're giving like a fair shape to what happens
and why she was angry and how young she is
and all of that stuff, and I get it because
Joel's Pimpedro Pascal is so nice and when scenes we
see with them together are very sweet, but I think
(34:43):
we have to take in the reality of it. And
some people have complained that I'm too forgiving to Ellie
and Abby and not enough to Joel, and I don't
think that's true at all. I think I'm just more
vocal about Abby and Ellie because Joel doesn't need it.
Joel does not need my protection because people generally are
(35:08):
on his side, and I get why, and I like
him as a character, but I also just think we
have to take in the realities of who he is
if we're going to take in the realities of everybody
else and the reality of what he did. And you
can come out on either side of that whatever however
(35:31):
you feel about it, but I just don't. I feel
like we're not giving a lot of the women characters
the same space and that if you don't mind potentially
being spoiled. Is something that we talked about in our
Women in Survival Horror Games episode and how I felt
(35:51):
like women in Revenge we don't give them the same
space that we do men in Revenge and I mean
that's part of the complication as well, is that Joel's
story is sort of a I don't know, I guess
(36:15):
some people would call it like a he a rescue story,
like he's protecting this young girl, and then almost kind
of a redemption story. But I think we talked about
that who gets redemption as well and our women in
Forgiveness episode who do we allow these redemption arcs? And
(36:36):
who do we not? So all that to say, I
was not surprised, and I, to be honest with you,
didn't engage in it at all. I haven't been on
social media in a long time, and this is one
of the reasons. A lot of the fandoms I love
(36:57):
are very toxic, and I just don't It wasn't a
good use of my energy. So I knew it was
going to happen. I knew it was happening, but I
kind of distance myself from it, like I didn't want
(37:19):
that to kind of taint my experience. But I know
it was huge. I've gotten Google alerts about it because
every they all know I love the Last of Us,
so I get updates about it, and you know, even
the creators said, we know people are going to be mad,
and they've had to release several statements lately about it.
(37:42):
But they also were like, this is the story and
we don't want to we don't want to compromise on it.
And I'm glad they didn't because I love the story.
But it does suck because it is something that people
put a lot of hard work into you, and in
this case, we're getting two main casting backlashes, which is
(38:07):
Bella Ramsey and Caitlyn Deaver Ellien Abbey. I honestly, I
think they both did a wonderful job. There's I don't.
There's no part of me that it's like this is miscast.
But I did read some interesting articles about Bella Ramsey
being quote miscast and how it actually creates an interesting opportunity.
(38:30):
From what I can gather, most of these arguments are physical.
They're all about appearance, and again, I just feel like
if you're pretty close to the character, then I don't
I don't care for doing a good at acting job
and the characters being created and being cared for. I
(38:53):
don't really care. But honestly, most of it and people
you can write in and correct me if I'm wrong,
because a lot of the like I said is very hateful,
and I've been avoiding it, like purposefully avoiding it because
I've heard it. I heard it when the game came out,
and I just didn't want to. I don't want to
deal with it. But from what I can tell, it's
(39:16):
mostly about physicality, and like I said, people are a
little they're annoyed that they I think they feel like
they're the characterizations of Appy and Ellie are quote nicer,
which I think that there's a lot of reasons why
(39:37):
that might be, but one of them is just the
the way show, the media of a show works versus
the media of a game. But also they knew there
was going to be this huge backlash so they were
trying to preempt it in some ways. And as I said,
they on their next game, Naughty Dog's Next game, which
(39:58):
is the studio behind the last, but they even have
a boot camp for dealing with this kind of which
is so unfortunate. I'm glad that they're like taking steps,
but I hate that that's a thing at all. And
then one of the things listener Margaret brought up too
(40:19):
is that they're trying to be like so many people
stopped watching after Joel died which is possible. There's been
like a lot of mixed, mixed news reports about that,
and actually, surprisingly, streaming services are real cagy about how
much how many people are watching their shows. And I
(40:41):
think two years ago there was a whole like push
to get Netflix in particular, to release their data.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Didn't they do a whole like lawsuit trying to hire
their data or at least because they were doing something
really yeah, like that's not right and they were counting
like barely seconds type of thing.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yes, yeah, so, and you know, to be honest, we
can speak to that, yes, podcasters. Yeah, well, because that
they constantly are changing how they calculate what counts as
a listener, what counts as a watch. So I mean again,
I would just say take these things with a grain
(41:20):
of salts. I know, HBO released a statement about it
and they were like, nah, we're good, but who knows.
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, But I'm also like,
I wouldn't be surprised if it's being way over exaggerated.
Are just not true at all, or they don't have
(41:42):
they have no idea, because honestly, I tried to look
into it and I just found so many different things,
so who knows. I know it's it's kind of hard
to avoid if you're if you're on social media. I
just know it's hard to avoid. But I would suggests
like a lot of that is blown up. A lot
(42:03):
of that is like Echo Chamber. It exists, one thousand percent.
It exists, and it's not small, but it's not as
big as I think people are making it out to be.
Like I said, the game is like sold more than
almost any game like it's I wish it would go away.
(42:25):
I'm trying to think of things I could do. I
don't know, need to whole different internet landscape, I guess,
but I just take things with this knowledge in hand
that they want you to think everyone hates it, and
I'm here to tell you that it's not true and
(42:46):
I am not alone. So yes, anyway, I hope that
kind of answers question. I could have looked into it
like Bore specifically, maybe I will in the future, but
I was just like, I don't want to deal with
these I don't want to. I just don't think it's
(43:11):
I know why it's gotten so much hate. They think
it's it's woke and they're mad about Joel and they're
really angry about the LGBTQ plus representation, So I guess
I just wasn't surprised. We did talk about it a
(43:31):
little bit, I think in the episode episode seven, no
episode five, if you want to hear more about it.
But that's kind of why I know it's a big deal,
but that's kind of why we didn't really bring it
up that much other than that episode. But yeah, I
do recommend that documentary if you're curious grounded on to
(43:53):
find it on YouTube. Also, I think that kind of enclosing,
as I said, my dad had died not too long
(44:14):
before this, after this came out, before this came out,
and I think when I watch it and when I
play it, it's so interesting to me because it does
feel like I'm processing grief and that's the power of
(44:37):
good storytelling and kind of all the things, the phases
that you go through, and how devastating and destructive some
of them can be. Even before, because our relationship had
deteriorated so poorly, I started saying things to him that
(45:01):
I meant to hurt meant to hurt him, and you know,
you look back and you're like, wow, I wish I'd
never said that one. But so when I maybe that's
one of the reasons I'm so sympathetic to Ellie when
she is being a brat, Like I get it, you
(45:22):
kind of lash out in these ways, especially if there's
like a secret no one's talking about, or at least
specifically in this case, which was what was going on.
And then you're going to see on Abby's side, what
I think is actually a really great representation of healing
(45:43):
from trauma. Again, it's so hard to talk about this
without spoiling anything, but just just that they have a
good visual that they use that I think I can't
wait to talk about. But this does bring us to
a little bonus. It's a little bit of a downer
(46:03):
as well, but it is Father's Day coming up. I
often joke about how I have like these sad traditions
around Father's Day. Anyone who's suffering, I know it stuff,
and I make light of things. That's just how I
deal with it. So I understand it's really difficult, but
(46:24):
I find it really I was thinking about this because
my well, my dad died. My hyperfixation was on how
to train your dragon. I have no idea where that
came from. We had no connection over this. I don't
even know if he'd seen it, but it just happened
and it became like my whole life. For months, I
(46:48):
read all the books, I watch all the shows, all
the movies people got me like how to Train Your
Dragon gifts, I went as Hiccup to Dragon con like
it was my whole life. And then it's just one
day went way, which is how a lot of hyperfixation works.
(47:09):
But the live action movie is coming out, which by
the way, has Nico Parker, who is Joel's daughter Sarah
and the Last of Us connections connections, and people have
been asking me, are you going to see it? And
I'm like, I want to see it, but I'm so
associated with my dad's death now, so I have to
(47:29):
be in a good place. But it's really funny to
me that I don't associate the Last of Us two
with my dad's death, even though all the time I'm
thinking about, like, I get why this game resonated with
me so much when it came out. But that brings
us to the sad fact How to Train Your Dragon
(47:52):
fandom is somehow sharing itself a part two, and it's
mostly because basically they cast a black woman. Oh, I mean,
I don't know, that's my opinion, but they're saying like
it's not historically accurate or whatever, and I just don't
(48:13):
again why.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Because dragons obviously accurate training them.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yes, So it's just I'm like, why can't why can't
you just stop it? Just stop it if you don't
like it, you don't like it, but you don't have
to do this.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Some peoples hobbies is just hate, make some joy to fight,
give them some kind of adrenaline.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, I know. I will say that I have a
friend like that, and I do avoid a lot of
conversations about things like this with with them, But I
also have I've had a couple of friends I've said,
we're When I told them that the last of us
whoose my favorite game? They're like, oh, I hate it
for X, Y and Z. And I was like, play
(48:58):
it again, and they did. And then neighb are like,
you know, okay, you were right because it's so jarring
the first time. It really really is, just because you
have this anticipation of where the story is going to
go and then it doesn't go that way at all,
and it's shocking, and so you kind of are like constantly.
(49:19):
When I remember when you first turned to Abby, I
kept thinking, when am we gonna turn back when? And
they were like nope, like no, But then I loved it,
like I go, but you have to kind of have
that moment of like, Okay, I have to accept this,
And I did say when I did the I think
(49:42):
it was when the newest version came out of the
game and I was talking about empathy and how I
found it really interesting that most of my women friends
who have played it have come to a very empathetic place,
and most of the men I see online who are
(50:02):
mad neverver ever even think about empathy, are like, no
way will I ever see this from this another person's
point of view ever. But the point being that sometimes
I have had some people in my life who were
(50:25):
real mad about Last of Us too. Then I just
was like, nope, go play it, and now they've kind
of backed off. So I hope that there are some
people online like that. But I do think you're right
that there's some people that are just they just want
to piss people off. They want to see that those
(50:47):
angry replies are people who agree with them, And I
do think a lot of it is about wanting to
get people agree that you are right. They should never
have done this with the Last of Us too, And
in fact, the voice actor Troy Baker, who played Joel,
has done and in interviews he said he gets really
(51:10):
frustrated because people come up to him and they were like,
it was so wrong what they did to you. They
never should have done that. And his go to question is,
then tell me a better story. What's the story you're
going to tell? And he says, they never have it answered.
And even my mom she kind of jokingly was like,
(51:32):
how could they do that to patri Pascal. He basically
she's sort of saying like he needs a job, and
I'm like, he's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
He purposely picked this because he knew he was going
to die.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
That's all I think.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
I think said that he said I read the script,
I died.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Right, because I think and I know it's still sad.
He's still sad to have lost like a character that
he cared about. But I think he's probably nice as
an actor to be like, Okay, I know when I'm
out and I can do these different projects, I can
mind up and guess what he's in a Marble movie.
He's got like four other movies out right now. He's fine.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
He's fine, he doesn't care. He knew what he was
getting into and he liked it.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
He did. And I mean, if we're gonna talk about
like character differences, he definitely, like I said in one
of the I think episode six, it was interesting to
hear him who's never played the game, talk about how
he views Joel, and I was like, Oh, I like this.
It's definitely not how I view It's a much nicer take.
(52:42):
But okay, I've just rambled so long. It was supposed
to be a question and answer, and then I just
went on.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
She did an out line, y'all. I didn't have any
questions because she did an outline. Oh she's prepared. I'm good.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
If I see an outline. She's got a thought process.
I have so many thoughts, and I'm sure, like this
will be it for a while, but I'm sure I'll
come back and have more thoughts and we'll talk more
about the toxic fandom part of it. But for now,
I just want to say thank you to the listeners
(53:17):
who have written in and have been supportive, and I
love how many of you are like I get this
Joel thing. But Bella Ramsey's right there. Like, I love
how many of you are being very supportive of these characters. Yes,
who gets so much online hate? So thank you and
I love hearing from you. And if you email me
(53:39):
about it, I will send you along email in response
about my thoughts, so be prepared, be prepared. But all right,
that's it for now. If you would like to email us,
you can. You can email us at Hello at stuff
iever Told You dot com. You can also find us
on Blue Sky also a podcast, or on Instagram and
TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You for us on YouTube,
(54:00):
tea public store, and we have a book you can
get wherever you get your books things. As always too
our super reduced Christina expect to producer My and your
contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening
Stuff I Never Told You production by Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check out
the Heart Radio ap Apple Podcasts or where you listen
to your favorite shows
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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