April 11, 2025 • 16 mins
Tracy shares how she went from concern that there wouldn't be enough research material for an episode to developing this week's topic into two. Both Tracy and Holly discuss their family connections to the war.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio Happy Friday.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Tracy B.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Wilson and I'm Holly Frye.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
We uh spent the whole week talking about the Vietnam
War and draft board raids. This was an episode that
when I started thinking about it five years ago and
in the times that I've thought about it since, I
was like, is there gonna be enough information about this
because it seemed kind of scattered and a lot of
what you find unless you're going through like news reporting
(00:37):
as it happened, of every single thing, which I did
do a lot of reading of the news reports of
what happened. A lot of times things are summed up
in just a couple of sentences. So it's like twenty
eight people broke into this place and they did this
to the draft records. So I was like, is this
really gonna work? And then as I got into the
Camden twenty eight story and was like, this is wild.
(00:59):
We had these people do this, they have their their
friend informing on them, we have this trial that needs
its whole section. I was like, maybe it's a whole
episode on just the Camden twenty eight, and that felt
like it was not doing justice to the fact that
it was part of a much bigger movement, and then
talking about the much bigger movement needed a lot more
(01:20):
explanation of why we were even having this happen, which
meant discussion in more detail of the Vietnam War than
I think you and I have ever gotten into on
the show on purpose. Yes, a topic I have not
been comfortable really getting into. Yeah. Me, my dad served
(01:41):
in Vietnam. He was deployed to Vietnam in nineteen seventy one,
so during that period that you know, removal of troops
was happening, but people also being sent over there for
the first time. I also have more extended a member
of the family who was killed in Vietnam and then
growing up in the you know, latter half of the
(02:02):
nineteen seventies and into the nineteen eighties and just kind
of being steeped in what the culture of the United
States was like at that point. I've always been like, yikes,
we have plenty of other stuff to talk about. Don't
really need to get into that.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, yeah, here we are here, we are.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I mean my dad is career military and served in Vietnam.
We have never talked about it. Yeah, that was made
very clear to me as a kid that that was
an off limits subject. Yeah, so I don't have a
lot of information.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I have one story about my dad's time in Vietnam,
and it is about when he was preparing to go
home and how everyone was when it was approaching time
to go home. People were terrified because it was like,
if something's going to happen to me, now is when
(02:57):
it's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Apparently he had to pass everybody had to pass a
drug test to be able to go back home, and
if you didn't pass your drug test, you could only
get as far as Okinawa and you had to wait
there for I don't know what. And so in the
midst of just this anxiety about what was going to happen,
he hadn't really had anything to eat or drink, and
(03:23):
so the sample he gave was not valid for his
drug test. He had to do it over and he's
not He's not ever told me much more about it
beyond that, but having been kind of a pacifist person
from my early childhood generally feeling that war is bad,
(03:47):
and then growing up through the years of stuff like
Operation desert storm, and like people's responses about that still
being cut by what had happened with the anti Vietnam
War movement, which, as we said in the episode, way
broader than hippies and college kids. Yeah, anyway, it was
(04:11):
just it was a weird time to grow up.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
For sure. And I feel like part of the reason
that it was always off limits in my family for
discussion was because not just of my father's service, but
my mom, who I would not say was anti war
or a pacifist, although I don't really know. We never
(04:36):
talked about it. Was very Catholic, and so I wonder
if there was some like just like, we don't want
to start peeling this onion. It is too complicated. There
are too many issues in play. Yeah, Like, I think
it was just a let's not have a potentially tricky conversation.
(04:58):
I'm making, you know, the following items for dinner. Yeah, yeah,
not necessarily a fan of nuance my mom, right, Yeah,
I think that was part of it too. So for
all I know, my dad would have been like, yeah,
I'll talk about it. My mom was like, let's not.
(05:20):
I don't know, I can still ask my dad, but
you know, I kind of don't want to bug a
dude in his eighties about stuff like that, right, right, Yeah,
he's never volunteered anything, so right.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, my dad also worked in a motor pool, so
he was not in a like frontline kind of combat position.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I had a couple of things that came up in
the research for this that didn't have just a good
place to go in the episode, so I kind of
wanted to talk about them and behind the scenes now
that I have talked about my profoundest comfort of trying
to talk about Vietnam on the show. One the flower
Power image. Love that photo. I really do. The person
(06:02):
in the photo George Harris, really George Harris the third
later known as Hibiscus, so I think he was eighteen
or nineteen when that picture was taken. Had a theater
background or from childhood, like theater family and like doing plays,
(06:24):
the siblings and all of that. After the war, went
to the San Francisco Bay area and helped found an
avant garde drag performance group called the Cockettes. Other cocattes
include Divine.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, I know of the Cockettes. I did not realize
this was the connection though.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, So Hibiscus, one of the founders of the Cocattes,
also one of the founders of the Angel of Light
Theater Troop, one of his fellow performers in all of this,
in an article about him in The New York Times,
described him as quote, he came out of the closet
wearing the entire closet. I love that so much. It's
(07:08):
also very clear that his gender was pretty fluid. But
everything that I have read about him has used him
pronouns for him. He had a relationship with Alan Ginsberg,
like a relationship, right, like a physical slash romantic relationship.
So tragically he died of AIDS related diseases in nineteen
(07:30):
eighty two. That was so early in the AIDS crisis
that the terms human immune deficiency virus and acquired immune
deficiency syndrome had not even been coined yet to describe it.
He was only thirty two. I'd want to go back
in time and with his consent, hug him. That was
(07:53):
thing number one. I just I wanted to talk more
about Pybiscus and all of that and kind of you know,
where his life went from being in this famous picture
the other thing father Michael Doyle. Yeah, this requires a
(08:16):
little bit of context. So in a number of Christian
denominations on ash Wednesday, there is some kind of like
observation or service right that is usually done with the
palms from Palm Sunday the previous year. So Palm Sunday
commemorates Jesus coming into Jerusalem and people waving palm branches,
(08:41):
and there's usually something with palm branches at the church service,
and then those branches are saved. The next year, they
are burned to make the ashes for ash Wednesday, and
then on ash Wednesday there's something that often involves a
person getting some of the ash on their head, often
on their forehead in the shape of a cross. YEP,
(09:02):
A lot of different Like I was, I was raised Methodist.
We didn't really do this.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Oh, yes, I've had I've had the ash face many times.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes, Catholics do. I think Episcopalians do not. Just broadly speaking,
I'm not saying every single Catholic in the world has
done this.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You do you.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I'm not given commands here. So Michael Doyle, at some
point during all of this, I think it might have
been after the trial, made the ashes for ash Wednesday
by burning a copy of the Pentagon papers.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, I had heard that, but I did not know
if that was true or not.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I think there's a picture of it he's burning.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Oh, I believe you. I just mean I never looked
it up like I heard it like a non verified source.
Was like, oh, yeah, that happened, and I'm like.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Burned the Pentagon papers in an army helmet. Uh. And
then you know, told the congregation about like this, this
ash Wednesday ash was like a peace demonstration of he
did get in trouble uh with the you know, the
the more the higher up church authority in the Catholic
(10:17):
Church for doing this. I don't I didn't write down
like what specifically, whether he was reprimanded, exactly what happened,
but I was like the ash Wednesday ashes out of
the Pentagon papers. I don't want to step on anyone's
religious convictions, but I was like, I am be this
(10:38):
actually in just a philosophical way. I cannot speak to
it from a religious way because again, it's not part
of my religious tradition. Right, I will say this, right,
although he may have gotten in trouble for that, he
was a mon senior when he died, Okay, which is
a title that you get that's bestowed on people for
extraordinary service by the post.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Okay, yeah, the bishop. You know, the hierarchy of the
church is very political, but the priest bishop has to
recommend them, but then the pope typically is the one
who gives them the actual title of monsignor. So while
he may have had brushes with being reprimanded, ultimately he
(11:26):
was recognized for his service.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
He died only a couple of years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, So a lot of the people who were involved
in this some way died in the period sort of
between the nineteen nineties and now, and some are presumably
still living, especially the younger people who were part of
these demonstrations. So so many like were already living a
(11:54):
life that was really focused on service and was focused
on social issue shoes and went on to continue to
do that after the war for the rest of their lives.
The book that I mentioned that recently came out about
the Camden twenty it kind of talked a little bit
(12:16):
about the Catholic left movement and some of the things
that happened in the years after this, like people who
had been part of the Vietnam the anti Vietnam protests
and really dedicated to that work were not necessarily of
the same mind as about things like abortion, right. And
(12:37):
then also there was the massive uh you know, sex
abuse within the Catholic Church that came to like after
all of this, and so like all of those things
played a part in uh, you know, how people continued
to do work or demonstrations and all of that afterward.
(12:59):
I sure do you find the Berrigan brothers fascinating, utterly fascinating.
One of them I do not remember, which went on
to get married to a former nun but still called
himself a priest afterward. Apparently they just did a lot
of very dramatic work related to a number of causes,
(13:20):
including the anti nuclear weapons movement after all of this,
And there's a I think fairly recent book just about
them also.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
That seems correct.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
So yeah, this episode was about stuff that's a little
more recent than we often talk about. I sort of
have realized recently, I'm turning fifty, which means, stef that
happened before I was born happened more than fifty years ago.
(13:53):
And I know that seems obvious so jarmy, But you know,
having started working on this podcast more than a decade ago,
it feels a little different stuff that happened forty years
ago versus stuff that happened fifty years ago in terms
of like how much historical remove do we have on
(14:16):
this at this point? Right? So yeah, anyway, yeah, I was.
I was alive during this, so yeah, yeah, I was.
I was born in nineteen seventy five, so just afterward.
But I still feel like the Vietnam War really dominated
(14:37):
so much socially and politically. Oh yes, through my whole upbringing.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Oh yes. So anyway, yeah we're old. I don't know
what to tell you.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, aging, aging is happening. It was really working on
this episode that I I kind of like, we don't
It's not like we have a demographic survey of our
entire audience, right, we do have some indications of a
little bit of like the demographic trends of our audience,
and I was like, we really are at a point
(15:09):
where most of the audience probably did not live through
the sixties, seventies and eighties. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I mean, one of the things that I have loved
seeing about our audience, and we have heard it from
people when we've done live shows and whatnot, is how
many of them, you know, started listening to the show
as part of like school curriculum. Oh yeah, but then
continued to listen after they had finished their education. So
(15:38):
they're aging up, but that still means that they were
much younger when we were, you know, initially talking to
them and yes, yeah, way outside the time window, right,
and this would have been really actively going on. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So whatever is happening on your weekend, boy do I
hope it is as great as possible if you're able
to take a little time for yourself, have a moment,
take a breath, maybe take a walk outside the weather's nice,
Maybe just a look outside if the weather's not nice,
or if you don't want to go out there. We'll
(16:21):
be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand
new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class is
a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio Happy Friday.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Tracy B.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Wilson and I'm Holly Frye.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
We uh spent the whole week talking about the Vietnam
War and draft board raids. This was an episode that
when I started thinking about it five years ago and
in the times that I've thought about it since, I
was like, is there gonna be enough information about this
because it seemed kind of scattered and a lot of
what you find unless you're going through like news reporting
(00:37):
as it happened, of every single thing, which I did
do a lot of reading of the news reports of
what happened. A lot of times things are summed up
in just a couple of sentences. So it's like twenty
eight people broke into this place and they did this
to the draft records. So I was like, is this
really gonna work? And then as I got into the
Camden twenty eight story and was like, this is wild.
(00:59):
We had these people do this, they have their their
friend informing on them, we have this trial that needs
its whole section. I was like, maybe it's a whole
episode on just the Camden twenty eight, and that felt
like it was not doing justice to the fact that
it was part of a much bigger movement, and then
talking about the much bigger movement needed a lot more
(01:20):
explanation of why we were even having this happen, which
meant discussion in more detail of the Vietnam War than
I think you and I have ever gotten into on
the show on purpose. Yes, a topic I have not
been comfortable really getting into. Yeah. Me, my dad served
(01:41):
in Vietnam. He was deployed to Vietnam in nineteen seventy one,
so during that period that you know, removal of troops
was happening, but people also being sent over there for
the first time. I also have more extended a member
of the family who was killed in Vietnam and then
growing up in the you know, latter half of the
(02:02):
nineteen seventies and into the nineteen eighties and just kind
of being steeped in what the culture of the United
States was like at that point. I've always been like, yikes,
we have plenty of other stuff to talk about. Don't
really need to get into that.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, yeah, here we are here, we are.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I mean my dad is career military and served in Vietnam.
We have never talked about it. Yeah, that was made
very clear to me as a kid that that was
an off limits subject. Yeah, so I don't have a
lot of information.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I have one story about my dad's time in Vietnam,
and it is about when he was preparing to go
home and how everyone was when it was approaching time
to go home. People were terrified because it was like,
if something's going to happen to me, now is when
(02:57):
it's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Apparently he had to pass everybody had to pass a
drug test to be able to go back home, and
if you didn't pass your drug test, you could only
get as far as Okinawa and you had to wait
there for I don't know what. And so in the
midst of just this anxiety about what was going to happen,
he hadn't really had anything to eat or drink, and
(03:23):
so the sample he gave was not valid for his
drug test. He had to do it over and he's
not He's not ever told me much more about it
beyond that, but having been kind of a pacifist person
from my early childhood generally feeling that war is bad,
(03:47):
and then growing up through the years of stuff like
Operation desert storm, and like people's responses about that still
being cut by what had happened with the anti Vietnam
War movement, which, as we said in the episode, way
broader than hippies and college kids. Yeah, anyway, it was
(04:11):
just it was a weird time to grow up.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
For sure. And I feel like part of the reason
that it was always off limits in my family for
discussion was because not just of my father's service, but
my mom, who I would not say was anti war
or a pacifist, although I don't really know. We never
(04:36):
talked about it. Was very Catholic, and so I wonder
if there was some like just like, we don't want
to start peeling this onion. It is too complicated. There
are too many issues in play. Yeah, Like, I think
it was just a let's not have a potentially tricky conversation.
(04:58):
I'm making, you know, the following items for dinner. Yeah, yeah,
not necessarily a fan of nuance my mom, right, Yeah,
I think that was part of it too. So for
all I know, my dad would have been like, yeah,
I'll talk about it. My mom was like, let's not.
(05:20):
I don't know, I can still ask my dad, but
you know, I kind of don't want to bug a
dude in his eighties about stuff like that, right, right, Yeah,
he's never volunteered anything, so right.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, my dad also worked in a motor pool, so
he was not in a like frontline kind of combat position.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I had a couple of things that came up in
the research for this that didn't have just a good
place to go in the episode, so I kind of
wanted to talk about them and behind the scenes now
that I have talked about my profoundest comfort of trying
to talk about Vietnam on the show. One the flower
Power image. Love that photo. I really do. The person
(06:02):
in the photo George Harris, really George Harris the third
later known as Hibiscus, so I think he was eighteen
or nineteen when that picture was taken. Had a theater
background or from childhood, like theater family and like doing plays,
(06:24):
the siblings and all of that. After the war, went
to the San Francisco Bay area and helped found an
avant garde drag performance group called the Cockettes. Other cocattes
include Divine.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, I know of the Cockettes. I did not realize
this was the connection though.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, So Hibiscus, one of the founders of the Cocattes,
also one of the founders of the Angel of Light
Theater Troop, one of his fellow performers in all of this,
in an article about him in The New York Times,
described him as quote, he came out of the closet
wearing the entire closet. I love that so much. It's
(07:08):
also very clear that his gender was pretty fluid. But
everything that I have read about him has used him
pronouns for him. He had a relationship with Alan Ginsberg,
like a relationship, right, like a physical slash romantic relationship.
So tragically he died of AIDS related diseases in nineteen
(07:30):
eighty two. That was so early in the AIDS crisis
that the terms human immune deficiency virus and acquired immune
deficiency syndrome had not even been coined yet to describe it.
He was only thirty two. I'd want to go back
in time and with his consent, hug him. That was
(07:53):
thing number one. I just I wanted to talk more
about Pybiscus and all of that and kind of you know,
where his life went from being in this famous picture
the other thing father Michael Doyle. Yeah, this requires a
(08:16):
little bit of context. So in a number of Christian
denominations on ash Wednesday, there is some kind of like
observation or service right that is usually done with the
palms from Palm Sunday the previous year. So Palm Sunday
commemorates Jesus coming into Jerusalem and people waving palm branches,
(08:41):
and there's usually something with palm branches at the church service,
and then those branches are saved. The next year, they
are burned to make the ashes for ash Wednesday, and
then on ash Wednesday there's something that often involves a
person getting some of the ash on their head, often
on their forehead in the shape of a cross. YEP,
(09:02):
A lot of different Like I was, I was raised Methodist.
We didn't really do this.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Oh, yes, I've had I've had the ash face many times.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes, Catholics do. I think Episcopalians do not. Just broadly speaking,
I'm not saying every single Catholic in the world has
done this.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You do you.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I'm not given commands here. So Michael Doyle, at some
point during all of this, I think it might have
been after the trial, made the ashes for ash Wednesday
by burning a copy of the Pentagon papers.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, I had heard that, but I did not know
if that was true or not.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I think there's a picture of it he's burning.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Oh, I believe you. I just mean I never looked
it up like I heard it like a non verified source.
Was like, oh, yeah, that happened, and I'm like.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Burned the Pentagon papers in an army helmet. Uh. And
then you know, told the congregation about like this, this
ash Wednesday ash was like a peace demonstration of he
did get in trouble uh with the you know, the
the more the higher up church authority in the Catholic
(10:17):
Church for doing this. I don't I didn't write down
like what specifically, whether he was reprimanded, exactly what happened,
but I was like the ash Wednesday ashes out of
the Pentagon papers. I don't want to step on anyone's
religious convictions, but I was like, I am be this
(10:38):
actually in just a philosophical way. I cannot speak to
it from a religious way because again, it's not part
of my religious tradition. Right, I will say this, right,
although he may have gotten in trouble for that, he
was a mon senior when he died, Okay, which is
a title that you get that's bestowed on people for
extraordinary service by the post.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Okay, yeah, the bishop. You know, the hierarchy of the
church is very political, but the priest bishop has to
recommend them, but then the pope typically is the one
who gives them the actual title of monsignor. So while
he may have had brushes with being reprimanded, ultimately he
(11:26):
was recognized for his service.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
He died only a couple of years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, So a lot of the people who were involved
in this some way died in the period sort of
between the nineteen nineties and now, and some are presumably
still living, especially the younger people who were part of
these demonstrations. So so many like were already living a
(11:54):
life that was really focused on service and was focused
on social issue shoes and went on to continue to
do that after the war for the rest of their lives.
The book that I mentioned that recently came out about
the Camden twenty it kind of talked a little bit
(12:16):
about the Catholic left movement and some of the things
that happened in the years after this, like people who
had been part of the Vietnam the anti Vietnam protests
and really dedicated to that work were not necessarily of
the same mind as about things like abortion, right. And
(12:37):
then also there was the massive uh you know, sex
abuse within the Catholic Church that came to like after
all of this, and so like all of those things
played a part in uh, you know, how people continued
to do work or demonstrations and all of that afterward.
(12:59):
I sure do you find the Berrigan brothers fascinating, utterly fascinating.
One of them I do not remember, which went on
to get married to a former nun but still called
himself a priest afterward. Apparently they just did a lot
of very dramatic work related to a number of causes,
(13:20):
including the anti nuclear weapons movement after all of this,
And there's a I think fairly recent book just about
them also.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
That seems correct.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
So yeah, this episode was about stuff that's a little
more recent than we often talk about. I sort of
have realized recently, I'm turning fifty, which means, stef that
happened before I was born happened more than fifty years ago.
(13:53):
And I know that seems obvious so jarmy, But you know,
having started working on this podcast more than a decade ago,
it feels a little different stuff that happened forty years
ago versus stuff that happened fifty years ago in terms
of like how much historical remove do we have on
(14:16):
this at this point? Right? So yeah, anyway, yeah, I was.
I was alive during this, so yeah, yeah, I was.
I was born in nineteen seventy five, so just afterward.
But I still feel like the Vietnam War really dominated
(14:37):
so much socially and politically. Oh yes, through my whole upbringing.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Oh yes. So anyway, yeah we're old. I don't know
what to tell you.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, aging, aging is happening. It was really working on
this episode that I I kind of like, we don't
It's not like we have a demographic survey of our
entire audience, right, we do have some indications of a
little bit of like the demographic trends of our audience,
and I was like, we really are at a point
(15:09):
where most of the audience probably did not live through
the sixties, seventies and eighties. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I mean, one of the things that I have loved
seeing about our audience, and we have heard it from
people when we've done live shows and whatnot, is how
many of them, you know, started listening to the show
as part of like school curriculum. Oh yeah, but then
continued to listen after they had finished their education. So
(15:38):
they're aging up, but that still means that they were
much younger when we were, you know, initially talking to
them and yes, yeah, way outside the time window, right,
and this would have been really actively going on. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So whatever is happening on your weekend, boy do I
hope it is as great as possible if you're able
to take a little time for yourself, have a moment,
take a breath, maybe take a walk outside the weather's nice,
Maybe just a look outside if the weather's not nice,
or if you don't want to go out there. We'll
(16:21):
be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand
new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class is
a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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