July 10, 2023 • 30 mins
Flaviu is talking to a wide-bellied Colombian named Juan about a deal to sell weapons to the FARC, a paramilitary group. But the arms deal hits a snag in Italy.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, can you don't your visit? Can you hear me? Andy?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yes, I hear you can hear It's May twenty fourteen,
and one the Colombian is calling Andy georg Escu in
Los Angeles. Andy's told Wan that his guy Flavio has
found someone to assist in getting weapons. He suggests they
all meet Juan, Flavio and Andy in Italy to square
(00:36):
away the deal. One is excited about this prospect, and
he tells Andy that he sent an updated, expanded list
of weapons that he wants to buy.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Okay, go ahead, all right, I send you are a
note on the Skype. I'll tell you the list, okay, okay,
So is there?
Speaker 4 (00:54):
All right?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
All right, I should be home tomorrow night. I call
you when I get there. Okay, we'll still right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well I'm done and I'm leaving the day after I
talked to a little more. All right, okay, brother, take
it out. Let me know if any questions please, it's important.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
However, take you by a right all right phone call
and your Jesus at five or three pm follow in
time on Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
By six two and.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Fourteen, one in Colombia stops the recorder he's about to
fly halfway across the world to meet with Andy and Flavia,
or at least that's what he thinks. I'm Trevor Aronson
from Western Sound and I Heart Podcasts. This is Alphabet Boys,
(02:19):
Episode five. You guys are not serious. What I'm about
to tell you is the most expensive example of gaslighting
I've ever heard. A week after that phone call you heard,
(02:40):
a couple of minutes ago, Juan flies to Rome along
with two of his Colombian colleagues. Andy and Wan had
been talking about this arms deal for two years at
this point, and now it seems it's finally going to happen.
The day before they're scheduled to meet, Juan is in
a hotel room rum and he calls Andy.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
All right, so are you going tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I'm waiting.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
I still didn't give the stuff to get care. Come
on tomorrow. I'm the only one that I can go to.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
The one up money for.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
The guys just's available tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
But that's.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
There to get someone, I'm trying to get somebody to
come the word.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Okay, let me ask you this, let me let's send
let's be sending see it to each other.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
What is going on? Are you gonna comply with me? Man,
don't let me down. Please, No, I'm.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Not letting you down.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
What Andy is saying it's bizarre. He'd promise Wan he'd
be in Italy. Now he's saying something about Abu Dhabi,
but Andy says, don't worry, Flavio is still coming. So
he gives one Flavio's number. A couple of days past,
(04:07):
one calls and calls, and all he gets is Flavio's voicemail.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
To strug You make me up name, a phone number
and a police message, and I'll count at you as
soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Thank you, Flavio.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Vermoning is one as have your message on your UK number,
But Anne says for me to call you on this
number as well. When on your phone call so we
can plan a meeting tomorrow. First thing Flavio give me
a call back is now Wednesday, eight o'clock am in Rome.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Thank you. Right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Consider this from one's perspective. He boarded a flight in
Colombia with two revolutionaries from the jungle. There are no
direct flights from Bogata to Rome with one or two layovers.
Wan and his colleagues are looking at about twenty four
hours of travel time in a six hour time difference.
They land, they take a taxi from the airport, They
(05:09):
check into a hotel. They shower with you know, those
tiny bars of soap, and they're no doubt exhausted. And
now that they're here in Rome, they discover Andy and
Flavio aren't. Wan calls Andy and he's frustrated. He's done
his part and now he doesn't know what's happening.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yes, Andy, I call him and no call by I
know you about to go to sleep, or please call him.
I ask him to call me, otherwise we're gonna waste
Wednesday as well.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And this I need to live.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I don't know that the culture several folk, I mean's
all possible. Face So he'll get it and he'll call
you don't he will coach.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It's tough to hear. But Andy says he doesn't know
what's happening. Maybe Flavio fell asleep. But don't worry, he
sures Wan, Flavio is going to call, all right.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I want to wait for it.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Do you probably want to call him as well? Because
you know the time goes by today ways at the
morning Stursday, we're running out of the time. Yeah, no, no, no,
we're not okay, brother, see you later. Way calls on
the fourteenth of Fight twenty fourteen Local time is uh
(06:32):
a fifty am in drome read Daly.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That call ended at eight fifty am. As you heard
Wan state, it was recorded by eight pm. Flavio still
hasn't called him, and so Wan called Andy again.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
And the and the Andy.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
You don't kill him, brother, you call.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I never called.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Maybe he's playing or something. But he's supposed to flight
yesterday life. Maybe he's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I don't know what.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
He didn't call you. You called me back just to
get get that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Only you gotta listen, listen to this straight. There's no
one who's can tell me. So I don't, I don't.
I can't hang around. I'm just gonna leave.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
And then it's okay, don't Probably if you couldn't make
it this time, you'll make it the next time around.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Just be honest with me.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Correct, But I'm very honest.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Again, from Want's perspective, he's been talking to Andy for
two years. Finally this mysterious Flavio guy is going to
help him get his weapons. But now the moment of
truth and nothing. Then again from Andy's perspective, this Colombian
guy has been putting up with his delays for a
(07:48):
very long time, a surprising amount of time. What's a
few more hours. And he's like, come on, man, I
told you Flavio is on his way. He's coming from London. Basically,
sip on an espresso and wait, but I know he
went back to London.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, let me let me tell you this tomorrow. It's
only so many hours. We're gonna meet from end of
the morning, having them look at night. Then I gotta
go to sleep because I need to be out there
for on the wee hours of the morning.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
We all have I have.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
These people with me. They're not with me right now,
but I have to have them visit that it's not
your fault. Otherwise again, they want to think that you're
full of it.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I have these people with me, while tells Andy, referring
to the two Colombian colleagues who joined him on the
trip to Rome. If Andy or Andy's friend Flavio doesn't
show up, they're going to think you're full of it.
In other words, this could kill any potential for a deal.
One informs Andy that if he wants the salvage things.
(08:59):
He's gotta find this I Flavio, and that has to
happen very soon.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I totally understand.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
No, No, that's I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Going down find the guy called me in a three
way and we can talk. Please, Okay, all right, okay,
I see you the next morning.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Flavio still hasn't called, so Wan calls Andy yet again.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
He needs to call me now. I'll leave it in
the hotel. I leave it in the hotel at seven
in the morning.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Okay, No, you don't want to come by seven talk
about I won't call him right now doing this number two,
the other number they're still got work, don't gonna work.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I think he's out all time, out of money. Okay,
all right, see if you can't hold me now, I
don't mind, but I have one more jump on the showery.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
All right, another day passes. Wan is now supposed to
fly out of Rome in hours.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Then hello, hello, Flavio, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
This is the moment Wan's been waiting for. Juan and
Flavio are finally talking more after the break this international
(10:39):
arms deal. It's not exactly going smoothly. Juan is scheduled
the flat of Rome in just a few hours, and
he's finally talking to Flavio, who was supposed to meet
in person with one days ago.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know, like all the time when you're living a message,
I just shoot the number without the area for it.
I didn't know how can I die? I'd say it
was trying try.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Flavia's excuse for not calling is that he couldn't see
a properly formatted number on a Smith's calls. One is
audibly skeptical. Uh huh, he.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Says, where are you now?
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Right now, I'm in London and just finally I got
a guy which she wants to It's from Mania.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Flavia is referring to someone who can actually sell the
weapons to one. He's got a guy now, apparently.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, let me ask you.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I understand you were in New York this week according
to your concert to Andy.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Oh One consistently refers to Flavio and Andy cousins. They
aren't related, but neither Andy nor Flavio bothers to correct him.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I already came on, spending a week here waiting for
so one to show up, and no one show up.
I'm living in three hours back to the to the
United States. Okay, why not you your guy, Why you
or your guy can't come to Miami in a couple
of weeks and we can't talk. No big deal, you
(12:29):
didn't make it. You didn't make it when it's gonna
be hard for me to come back to Europe when
I came the first time. On one show up, you
have to understand that.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Flavio blames Andy for the mix up, saying he wasn't
given enough notice for the Italy trip and that he
had never confirmed to Andy that he could even make
it to Italy. But Flavio assures one that he's a
serious guy, that he's on top of this deal and
he has the contact they need to move forward.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Actually, I have to I have to talk with this
guy from Romania, which expession handing business the right person
which we have to talk.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Okay, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.
I know this is the first time you and I
are talking. I really appreciate you calling me back. You
know it took a few days, but here you are
talking to me. Is there any way possible that you
guy in Romania can't call me used to say hello?
You can give me his phone number. I will not
talk business. I just want to say hello to the guy.
(13:35):
The gentleman can't hear my boys, I can't hear his,
and then we can make some kind of an arrangement
for you guys to come. Okay, I will not go
to Romania at this point because I just wasted a
whole week here down the road. Perhaps maybe and you
guys can come maybe in two weeks to Miami.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I spend a day or two and we talk business,
because that's a lot of things we can not talk
over the phone. We need to see each other face to.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Face, basically one saying we need to do these super
secret meetings about illegal stuff in person. And after this,
I'm not traveling anywhere else for a while. You guys
need to come to me. You blew it for now.
(14:26):
Flavia is contrite and apologizes that once trip to Italy
didn't work out.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
And oh, you know, I'm really studied my apology by
things like that. You know I have, I have, and
you know, you know, people are hard to catch real
people to talk with it. They try all the time,
and sometimes they say thet if like a lo profile,
he's not, he's not, He's.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I hear you. But the best way to do this
is for him. For you guys to come I to Miami.
That's the only way.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Really.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I already spend my times and spend my time, so
you need to come.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Yeah, exactly. I had to tell your point, like you
like you have one to rights. Don't be really happy
because the stay there with no reasons.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I asked Flavia, what was happening behind the scenes during
the Italy fiasco? Why didn't you show up in Roame?
Speaker 6 (15:30):
Andy hel was call me and tells me in the night,
he said, you have to fly tomorrow to Italy to
meet this Columbian guy. He's around with business.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Flavio says Andy was moving things too fast and made
him nervous.
Speaker 6 (15:43):
Andy he was very pushed me to send me money
and he was having like half million dollars from Juani
his accounting. I was scared, be honest with you all
the whole time, was I was scared.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Flavio says that Andy had allegedly received money from one
and Andy was insistent that he sent Flavio some cash.
He offered as much as one hundred and fifty thousand
dollars as an advance on what Flavio would earn broker
in the arms deal. But Flavio says he didn't want
any of Wan's money landing in his account that would
(16:17):
have compromised him. And he says he couldn't be compromised
since he was working with the CIA. And I should
point out here that Flavio and the evidence in his
case are consistent on this. Flavio never received any money
from his work on the arms deal, not from Wan,
not from Andy, not from anyone.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
And all the time I push him around, I push
him on, no I have money, I'm okay, I'm okay,
I'm okay. Well, the time was chicking my account because
if I see that balance, at least to reverse the transaction,
because I know if I take money that one is
a crime. And that's why at one point I push
him away and I said, let me talk with one directly,
because he was really pressing me all the time with
(17:02):
the money. With the money, he will try to lock
me up the way I will trying to lock everybody.
And you see when I call Sier the first time,
I give you the framework. Right now, I have to
put all those pieces together, because it was pointless for
me to call again and said, you know what I
was doing this? I was doing this. I'm not an
informant for you.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I work with you.
Speaker 6 (17:20):
That means I give you the framework and let you
know in April twenty twelve what I'm gonna do for
you right now. Let me produce all those things and
put it together.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
And I said, I want to pause for a minute,
because what Flavio mentions here, It's important to remember Flavio
called the CIA in April twenty twelve and told the
agents about Andy and Wan. He told the agents pretty
much everything. The first conversation Flavio has with one is
in May twenty fourteen, two years later. In that two
(17:52):
year period, Flavio never calls the CIA, and the CIA
never calls Flavia. Make of that what you will. And
I don't say that flippantly. I mean make a mental
note that two year period of silence. It's a question
that hangs over so much of Flavio's story to come.
(18:18):
In May twenty fourteen, jan and his two Colombian colleagues
travel to Italy. Andy and Flavio stand up one in
his colleagues. Flavio's first call to Wan happens just hours
before he scheduled to leave Rome, and Flavio isn't even
in Rome, He's in London. It's a total shit show
(18:40):
for Wan. I think it's reasonable to say that just
about anyone looking to buy millions of dollars worth of
illegal weapons would have walked away at this point, convinced
that Andy and Flavio were nothing more than time killing wannabes,
but not Wan. At times, though, one does seem to
lean to throwing in the towel.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Listen, listen, listen.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
If you cannot do it, then let's forget about this.
I cannot you. Guys, don't have you, guys have no serious.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
This is from a later call one has with Flavia.
He dresses him down for being a no show in
Rome and for constantly changing plans.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
You change every five minutes.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You want a play by your rules and a time
to undug and when the first time you told me
it wasn't your fault and now you're telling me a
different story. I don't care about Andy, I don't care
about you. I don't care only about my business. If
you're gonna work with me, we need to be serious
about working. That's a bottom line.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So you need to.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Understand my position. These people have no game. No they
don't play games. As you say, these people you know
as serious. I can't get in trouble with them back
at home because of not keeping my work. You need
to understand that this is a serious business. If you
guys are not ready to do this, then forget about it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
One leaves it all out, insinuating in so many words
that his bosses are serious, they don't play games, they're killers.
But One doesn't want to walk away from Flavio. He
stays in this burgeoning deal, appearing to think that Flavio
can make good on his promises to deliver, and One
(20:21):
isn't operating solely on blind faith. Flavio engages Wan in
a big way after the Italy trip, with Flavio and
Wan speaking regularly by phone.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Now I have okay, good, good, Okay, I find I
want I find perfect, perfect perfect.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
The solution Flavio finds is an arms dealer who has
connections to a manufacturer in Ukraine. That's after the break.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Hey, Flavio, how are you? I was talking to your friend,
Jim hints from uh dear.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Okay, Flavio has put one in touch with a guy
named Guintautis. Flavio doesn't know Gintautus, someone Flavio knows in
Romania had referred him, so Flavio put him in touch
directly with Wan. Gintautas has connections with an arms manufacturer
in Ukraine. He can act as a broker between Wan
(21:42):
and Ukrainian factory.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, okay, okay, good, well he this is the guy,
This is the main guy, right that you say, Yeah,
he's a killer.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The reason Wan is calling Flavio now is that he's
just talked to Ginetoutis and Wand's impressed. He thinks Favia
is right. This is the solution. Gintautis can make this
arm steal happen.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Okay, all right, all right, Well he's gonna call me tomorrow.
He's going to change he's a schedule. He's not gonna
gook to Africa, but he's gonna let me know tomorrow
for sure that he's gonna meet me in Rome on
the twenty second.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Okay, Wan and Flavio had been tentatively discussing another trip
to Rome. Wan is hesitant about making a second trip
after having already been stood up once. But this Gintoutis guy,
he's changing things for Wan. If he'll be there one
says he might be willing to give Rome a second try.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Don't bring any one, don't bring Daddy, don't bring no fighty.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Flavio tells Juan that gin Tautus is a careful operator.
One can't bring a bunch of people to a meeting
with him. This is secret agent stuff.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Your ceres, your seasiness. If you bring more people into
his business, you lose it.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
No, no, no no, I'll be there by myself, Olivia.
I'm gonna have these two other Colombians in town, but
they will not come to the meeting because I already
explained to him that you didn't show up, not because
it was your fall.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I know what's on this fall now.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
You told me this is gonna be pretty much of
a short thing. I need I need you to tell him. No,
I tell him him person, I tell him in person.
Why not you do me a favor of you.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Talk with them than I thank your sixness is right
now with his whole name.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Okay, listen, you need to meet me there in Rome.
You don't have to go to the meeting with him.
You need to meet me there in room for breakfast
on a twenty second and then we can discuss how
I'm gonna take care of you.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Once recording ends abruptly there, but he tells Flavia that
King Tautus is coming to meet him in Rome and
Flavio needs to be in town so they can discuss
how Wan's going to take care of Flavio. That is,
how Flavio's going to get paid. One is definitely excited,
(24:15):
you can hear it in his voice, but it's excitement
doesn't last. On July twelfth, twenty fourteen, two days after
talking to Gintautis, One calls Flavio.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Te Flavio, Flavio, give me a call as soon as possible,
very origin is One, call me as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
It's urgent. Please thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Ten minutes later, Flavio returns Wan's call.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Hello, Hey, I got a serious problem. I spoke to
your friend the Russian and he and he fails with
that he cannot help me. That he was that he
has some kind of a misunderstanding or mission between between
(25:14):
you guys. I think that's what he said, and that
he cannot that whatever I'm trying to louis beyond what
he can't do.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
So you need to talk to him.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Make sure that he understands because I told him, Look,
what what what do.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
We used mean?
Speaker 3 (25:31):
I'm talking because maybe you're missing something on translation when
someone talks to you and maybe they're missing something.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
He says, no, no, I won't be able to help you.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
One also gets in touch with Andy.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Something spooked him. Andy tells one. What Andy means, Istas
has broken off community cations and he's not coming to Rome.
It's radio silence from him. He's not talking to anybody anymore.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Well, I think he said was that there was a
misunderstanding between him and his friends, her friends.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Guy, you are you guys or whoever?
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Is on between somebody somebody hired. Well, something stooked him.
I mean, you know, well what I'm gonna find out what.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I didn't push it, but the guy was very nice.
He knew it was me. Hey Juan, Yeah, I know
he does.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
She does. But I mean it's like, you know, he's
something stooked him.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, guing Tautus is spooked. That's true. What Wan and
Andy don't know is that the problem is Wan, after
talking to Juan Gintautas, sent an email to the person
who originally connected him with Flavio ging Tautus wrote, if
you ever bring me clients like this again, I will
(27:02):
never answer the phone for you. Guan Tutis includes in
his email a news article about a man from Africa
named Foulsy Jabber. Just three months before King Tutus has
his conversation with Juan. Jabber was arrested by federal agents
in Prague in April twenty fourteen for trying to sell
weapons to the FARC, the Colombian rebel group. From the
(27:26):
fall of twenty twelve through early twenty fourteen, Jabber had
met with Colombian men he believed were representatives of the FARC.
Turns out they weren't with the FARC, but instead they
were undercover informants for the US Drug Enforcement Administration the DEA.
(27:46):
Following his arrest, Jabber was extradited to New York and
pleaded guilty to conspiring to provide material support to a
terrorist organization. He was sentenced to fifteen years in prison.
Gin Tautas suspects that wont On, like the Colombians in Prague,
isn't really with the FARC either, but instead an agent
(28:07):
of the US government. This gingoutis guy. He smells a
rat and it only took him a couple of phone
calls with Juan and you know what guingetutis is right.
Every time is twelve forty two pm local Montenegro time
(28:31):
dates October eight, twenty fourteen.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
This is a meeting between CS one, two.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
And three and Fabrio Georgeski Christ John In two young
known males in Laudos something I want to head.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You may have guessed this because it's kind of weird
that someone with the FARC would record their conversations, but
one is not with the FARC. He's with the DEA.
That's in the next episode. This is up in arms,
season two of Alphabet Boys. Alphabet Boys is a production
(29:18):
of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. The show is reported,
written and hosted by me Trevor Aaronson. For more information
about this series or to drop us a tip, head
to our website Alphabet Boys dot xyz. You can contact
me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. The show's
instagram is Alphabet Boys dot pot. If you're enjoying Alphabet Boys,
(29:40):
tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations are the
best recommendations, and if you want to see an illegal
arms deal from the inside again, it's Alphabet Boys dot xyz.
You'll find undercover recordings and documents related to Flavio's case. Finally,
you can help us ride the algorithms by leaving it
or review on your favorite podcast app that helps other
(30:03):
people find us. And thanks for listening.
Hey, can you don't your visit? Can you hear me? Andy?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yes, I hear you can hear It's May twenty fourteen,
and one the Colombian is calling Andy georg Escu in
Los Angeles. Andy's told Wan that his guy Flavio has
found someone to assist in getting weapons. He suggests they
all meet Juan, Flavio and Andy in Italy to square
(00:36):
away the deal. One is excited about this prospect, and
he tells Andy that he sent an updated, expanded list
of weapons that he wants to buy.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Okay, go ahead, all right, I send you are a
note on the Skype. I'll tell you the list, okay, okay,
So is there?
Speaker 4 (00:54):
All right?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
All right, I should be home tomorrow night. I call
you when I get there. Okay, we'll still right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well I'm done and I'm leaving the day after I
talked to a little more. All right, okay, brother, take
it out. Let me know if any questions please, it's important.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
However, take you by a right all right phone call
and your Jesus at five or three pm follow in
time on Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
By six two and.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Fourteen, one in Colombia stops the recorder he's about to
fly halfway across the world to meet with Andy and Flavia,
or at least that's what he thinks. I'm Trevor Aronson
from Western Sound and I Heart Podcasts. This is Alphabet Boys,
(02:19):
Episode five. You guys are not serious. What I'm about
to tell you is the most expensive example of gaslighting
I've ever heard. A week after that phone call you heard,
(02:40):
a couple of minutes ago, Juan flies to Rome along
with two of his Colombian colleagues. Andy and Wan had
been talking about this arms deal for two years at
this point, and now it seems it's finally going to happen.
The day before they're scheduled to meet, Juan is in
a hotel room rum and he calls Andy.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
All right, so are you going tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I'm waiting.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
I still didn't give the stuff to get care. Come
on tomorrow. I'm the only one that I can go to.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
The one up money for.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
The guys just's available tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
But that's.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
There to get someone, I'm trying to get somebody to
come the word.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Okay, let me ask you this, let me let's send
let's be sending see it to each other.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
What is going on? Are you gonna comply with me? Man,
don't let me down. Please, No, I'm.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Not letting you down.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
What Andy is saying it's bizarre. He'd promise Wan he'd
be in Italy. Now he's saying something about Abu Dhabi,
but Andy says, don't worry, Flavio is still coming. So
he gives one Flavio's number. A couple of days past,
(04:07):
one calls and calls, and all he gets is Flavio's voicemail.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
To strug You make me up name, a phone number
and a police message, and I'll count at you as
soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Thank you, Flavio.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Vermoning is one as have your message on your UK number,
But Anne says for me to call you on this
number as well. When on your phone call so we
can plan a meeting tomorrow. First thing Flavio give me
a call back is now Wednesday, eight o'clock am in Rome.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Thank you. Right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Consider this from one's perspective. He boarded a flight in
Colombia with two revolutionaries from the jungle. There are no
direct flights from Bogata to Rome with one or two layovers.
Wan and his colleagues are looking at about twenty four
hours of travel time in a six hour time difference.
They land, they take a taxi from the airport, They
(05:09):
check into a hotel. They shower with you know, those
tiny bars of soap, and they're no doubt exhausted. And
now that they're here in Rome, they discover Andy and
Flavio aren't. Wan calls Andy and he's frustrated. He's done
his part and now he doesn't know what's happening.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yes, Andy, I call him and no call by I
know you about to go to sleep, or please call him.
I ask him to call me, otherwise we're gonna waste
Wednesday as well.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And this I need to live.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I don't know that the culture several folk, I mean's
all possible. Face So he'll get it and he'll call
you don't he will coach.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It's tough to hear. But Andy says he doesn't know
what's happening. Maybe Flavio fell asleep. But don't worry, he
sures Wan, Flavio is going to call, all right.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I want to wait for it.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Do you probably want to call him as well? Because
you know the time goes by today ways at the
morning Stursday, we're running out of the time. Yeah, no, no, no,
we're not okay, brother, see you later. Way calls on
the fourteenth of Fight twenty fourteen Local time is uh
(06:32):
a fifty am in drome read Daly.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That call ended at eight fifty am. As you heard
Wan state, it was recorded by eight pm. Flavio still
hasn't called him, and so Wan called Andy again.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
And the and the Andy.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
You don't kill him, brother, you call.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I never called.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Maybe he's playing or something. But he's supposed to flight
yesterday life. Maybe he's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I don't know what.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
He didn't call you. You called me back just to
get get that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Only you gotta listen, listen to this straight. There's no
one who's can tell me. So I don't, I don't.
I can't hang around. I'm just gonna leave.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
And then it's okay, don't Probably if you couldn't make
it this time, you'll make it the next time around.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Just be honest with me.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Correct, But I'm very honest.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Again, from Want's perspective, he's been talking to Andy for
two years. Finally this mysterious Flavio guy is going to
help him get his weapons. But now the moment of
truth and nothing. Then again from Andy's perspective, this Colombian
guy has been putting up with his delays for a
(07:48):
very long time, a surprising amount of time. What's a
few more hours. And he's like, come on, man, I
told you Flavio is on his way. He's coming from London. Basically,
sip on an espresso and wait, but I know he
went back to London.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, let me let me tell you this tomorrow. It's
only so many hours. We're gonna meet from end of
the morning, having them look at night. Then I gotta
go to sleep because I need to be out there
for on the wee hours of the morning.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
We all have I have.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
These people with me. They're not with me right now,
but I have to have them visit that it's not
your fault. Otherwise again, they want to think that you're
full of it.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I have these people with me, while tells Andy, referring
to the two Colombian colleagues who joined him on the
trip to Rome. If Andy or Andy's friend Flavio doesn't
show up, they're going to think you're full of it.
In other words, this could kill any potential for a deal.
One informs Andy that if he wants the salvage things.
(08:59):
He's gotta find this I Flavio, and that has to
happen very soon.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I totally understand.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
No, No, that's I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Going down find the guy called me in a three
way and we can talk. Please, Okay, all right, okay,
I see you the next morning.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Flavio still hasn't called, so Wan calls Andy yet again.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
He needs to call me now. I'll leave it in
the hotel. I leave it in the hotel at seven
in the morning.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Okay, No, you don't want to come by seven talk
about I won't call him right now doing this number two,
the other number they're still got work, don't gonna work.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I think he's out all time, out of money. Okay,
all right, see if you can't hold me now, I
don't mind, but I have one more jump on the showery.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
All right, another day passes. Wan is now supposed to
fly out of Rome in hours.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Then hello, hello, Flavio, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
This is the moment Wan's been waiting for. Juan and
Flavio are finally talking more after the break this international
(10:39):
arms deal. It's not exactly going smoothly. Juan is scheduled
the flat of Rome in just a few hours, and
he's finally talking to Flavio, who was supposed to meet
in person with one days ago.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know, like all the time when you're living a message,
I just shoot the number without the area for it.
I didn't know how can I die? I'd say it
was trying try.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Flavia's excuse for not calling is that he couldn't see
a properly formatted number on a Smith's calls. One is
audibly skeptical. Uh huh, he.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Says, where are you now?
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Right now, I'm in London and just finally I got
a guy which she wants to It's from Mania.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Flavia is referring to someone who can actually sell the
weapons to one. He's got a guy now, apparently.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, let me ask you.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I understand you were in New York this week according
to your concert to Andy.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Oh One consistently refers to Flavio and Andy cousins. They
aren't related, but neither Andy nor Flavio bothers to correct him.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I already came on, spending a week here waiting for
so one to show up, and no one show up.
I'm living in three hours back to the to the
United States. Okay, why not you your guy, Why you
or your guy can't come to Miami in a couple
of weeks and we can't talk. No big deal, you
(12:29):
didn't make it. You didn't make it when it's gonna
be hard for me to come back to Europe when
I came the first time. On one show up, you
have to understand that.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Flavio blames Andy for the mix up, saying he wasn't
given enough notice for the Italy trip and that he
had never confirmed to Andy that he could even make
it to Italy. But Flavio assures one that he's a
serious guy, that he's on top of this deal and
he has the contact they need to move forward.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Actually, I have to I have to talk with this
guy from Romania, which expession handing business the right person
which we have to talk.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Okay, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.
I know this is the first time you and I
are talking. I really appreciate you calling me back. You
know it took a few days, but here you are
talking to me. Is there any way possible that you
guy in Romania can't call me used to say hello?
You can give me his phone number. I will not
talk business. I just want to say hello to the guy.
(13:35):
The gentleman can't hear my boys, I can't hear his,
and then we can make some kind of an arrangement
for you guys to come. Okay, I will not go
to Romania at this point because I just wasted a
whole week here down the road. Perhaps maybe and you
guys can come maybe in two weeks to Miami.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I spend a day or two and we talk business,
because that's a lot of things we can not talk
over the phone. We need to see each other face to.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Face, basically one saying we need to do these super
secret meetings about illegal stuff in person. And after this,
I'm not traveling anywhere else for a while. You guys
need to come to me. You blew it for now.
(14:26):
Flavia is contrite and apologizes that once trip to Italy
didn't work out.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
And oh, you know, I'm really studied my apology by
things like that. You know I have, I have, and
you know, you know, people are hard to catch real
people to talk with it. They try all the time,
and sometimes they say thet if like a lo profile,
he's not, he's not, He's.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I hear you. But the best way to do this
is for him. For you guys to come I to Miami.
That's the only way.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Really.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I already spend my times and spend my time, so
you need to come.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Yeah, exactly. I had to tell your point, like you
like you have one to rights. Don't be really happy
because the stay there with no reasons.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I asked Flavia, what was happening behind the scenes during
the Italy fiasco? Why didn't you show up in Roame?
Speaker 6 (15:30):
Andy hel was call me and tells me in the night,
he said, you have to fly tomorrow to Italy to
meet this Columbian guy. He's around with business.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Flavio says Andy was moving things too fast and made
him nervous.
Speaker 6 (15:43):
Andy he was very pushed me to send me money
and he was having like half million dollars from Juani
his accounting. I was scared, be honest with you all
the whole time, was I was scared.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Flavio says that Andy had allegedly received money from one
and Andy was insistent that he sent Flavio some cash.
He offered as much as one hundred and fifty thousand
dollars as an advance on what Flavio would earn broker
in the arms deal. But Flavio says he didn't want
any of Wan's money landing in his account that would
(16:17):
have compromised him. And he says he couldn't be compromised
since he was working with the CIA. And I should
point out here that Flavio and the evidence in his
case are consistent on this. Flavio never received any money
from his work on the arms deal, not from Wan,
not from Andy, not from anyone.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
And all the time I push him around, I push
him on, no I have money, I'm okay, I'm okay,
I'm okay. Well, the time was chicking my account because
if I see that balance, at least to reverse the transaction,
because I know if I take money that one is
a crime. And that's why at one point I push
him away and I said, let me talk with one directly,
because he was really pressing me all the time with
(17:02):
the money. With the money, he will try to lock
me up the way I will trying to lock everybody.
And you see when I call Sier the first time,
I give you the framework. Right now, I have to
put all those pieces together, because it was pointless for
me to call again and said, you know what I
was doing this? I was doing this. I'm not an
informant for you.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I work with you.
Speaker 6 (17:20):
That means I give you the framework and let you
know in April twenty twelve what I'm gonna do for
you right now. Let me produce all those things and
put it together.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
And I said, I want to pause for a minute,
because what Flavio mentions here, It's important to remember Flavio
called the CIA in April twenty twelve and told the
agents about Andy and Wan. He told the agents pretty
much everything. The first conversation Flavio has with one is
in May twenty fourteen, two years later. In that two
(17:52):
year period, Flavio never calls the CIA, and the CIA
never calls Flavia. Make of that what you will. And
I don't say that flippantly. I mean make a mental
note that two year period of silence. It's a question
that hangs over so much of Flavio's story to come.
(18:18):
In May twenty fourteen, jan and his two Colombian colleagues
travel to Italy. Andy and Flavio stand up one in
his colleagues. Flavio's first call to Wan happens just hours
before he scheduled to leave Rome, and Flavio isn't even
in Rome, He's in London. It's a total shit show
(18:40):
for Wan. I think it's reasonable to say that just
about anyone looking to buy millions of dollars worth of
illegal weapons would have walked away at this point, convinced
that Andy and Flavio were nothing more than time killing wannabes,
but not Wan. At times, though, one does seem to
lean to throwing in the towel.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Listen, listen, listen.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
If you cannot do it, then let's forget about this.
I cannot you. Guys, don't have you, guys have no serious.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
This is from a later call one has with Flavia.
He dresses him down for being a no show in
Rome and for constantly changing plans.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
You change every five minutes.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You want a play by your rules and a time
to undug and when the first time you told me
it wasn't your fault and now you're telling me a
different story. I don't care about Andy, I don't care
about you. I don't care only about my business. If
you're gonna work with me, we need to be serious
about working. That's a bottom line.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So you need to.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Understand my position. These people have no game. No they
don't play games. As you say, these people you know
as serious. I can't get in trouble with them back
at home because of not keeping my work. You need
to understand that this is a serious business. If you
guys are not ready to do this, then forget about it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
One leaves it all out, insinuating in so many words
that his bosses are serious, they don't play games, they're killers.
But One doesn't want to walk away from Flavio. He
stays in this burgeoning deal, appearing to think that Flavio
can make good on his promises to deliver, and One
(20:21):
isn't operating solely on blind faith. Flavio engages Wan in
a big way after the Italy trip, with Flavio and
Wan speaking regularly by phone.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Now I have okay, good, good, Okay, I find I
want I find perfect, perfect perfect.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
The solution Flavio finds is an arms dealer who has
connections to a manufacturer in Ukraine. That's after the break.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Hey, Flavio, how are you? I was talking to your friend,
Jim hints from uh dear.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Okay, Flavio has put one in touch with a guy
named Guintautis. Flavio doesn't know Gintautus, someone Flavio knows in
Romania had referred him, so Flavio put him in touch
directly with Wan. Gintautas has connections with an arms manufacturer
in Ukraine. He can act as a broker between Wan
(21:42):
and Ukrainian factory.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, okay, okay, good, well he this is the guy,
This is the main guy, right that you say, Yeah,
he's a killer.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The reason Wan is calling Flavio now is that he's
just talked to Ginetoutis and Wand's impressed. He thinks Favia
is right. This is the solution. Gintautis can make this
arm steal happen.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Okay, all right, all right, Well he's gonna call me tomorrow.
He's going to change he's a schedule. He's not gonna
gook to Africa, but he's gonna let me know tomorrow
for sure that he's gonna meet me in Rome on
the twenty second.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Okay, Wan and Flavio had been tentatively discussing another trip
to Rome. Wan is hesitant about making a second trip
after having already been stood up once. But this Gintoutis guy,
he's changing things for Wan. If he'll be there one
says he might be willing to give Rome a second try.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Don't bring any one, don't bring Daddy, don't bring no fighty.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Flavio tells Juan that gin Tautus is a careful operator.
One can't bring a bunch of people to a meeting
with him. This is secret agent stuff.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Your ceres, your seasiness. If you bring more people into
his business, you lose it.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
No, no, no no, I'll be there by myself, Olivia.
I'm gonna have these two other Colombians in town, but
they will not come to the meeting because I already
explained to him that you didn't show up, not because
it was your fall.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I know what's on this fall now.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
You told me this is gonna be pretty much of
a short thing. I need I need you to tell him. No,
I tell him him person, I tell him in person.
Why not you do me a favor of you.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Talk with them than I thank your sixness is right
now with his whole name.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Okay, listen, you need to meet me there in Rome.
You don't have to go to the meeting with him.
You need to meet me there in room for breakfast
on a twenty second and then we can discuss how
I'm gonna take care of you.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Once recording ends abruptly there, but he tells Flavia that
King Tautus is coming to meet him in Rome and
Flavio needs to be in town so they can discuss
how Wan's going to take care of Flavio. That is,
how Flavio's going to get paid. One is definitely excited,
(24:15):
you can hear it in his voice, but it's excitement
doesn't last. On July twelfth, twenty fourteen, two days after
talking to Gintautis, One calls Flavio.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Te Flavio, Flavio, give me a call as soon as possible,
very origin is One, call me as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
It's urgent. Please thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Ten minutes later, Flavio returns Wan's call.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Hello, Hey, I got a serious problem. I spoke to
your friend the Russian and he and he fails with
that he cannot help me. That he was that he
has some kind of a misunderstanding or mission between between
(25:14):
you guys. I think that's what he said, and that
he cannot that whatever I'm trying to louis beyond what
he can't do.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
So you need to talk to him.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Make sure that he understands because I told him, Look,
what what what do.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
We used mean?
Speaker 3 (25:31):
I'm talking because maybe you're missing something on translation when
someone talks to you and maybe they're missing something.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
He says, no, no, I won't be able to help you.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
One also gets in touch with Andy.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Something spooked him. Andy tells one. What Andy means, Istas
has broken off community cations and he's not coming to Rome.
It's radio silence from him. He's not talking to anybody anymore.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Well, I think he said was that there was a
misunderstanding between him and his friends, her friends.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Guy, you are you guys or whoever?
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Is on between somebody somebody hired. Well, something stooked him.
I mean, you know, well what I'm gonna find out what.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I didn't push it, but the guy was very nice.
He knew it was me. Hey Juan, Yeah, I know
he does.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
She does. But I mean it's like, you know, he's
something stooked him.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, guing Tautus is spooked. That's true. What Wan and
Andy don't know is that the problem is Wan, after
talking to Juan Gintautas, sent an email to the person
who originally connected him with Flavio ging Tautus wrote, if
you ever bring me clients like this again, I will
(27:02):
never answer the phone for you. Guan Tutis includes in
his email a news article about a man from Africa
named Foulsy Jabber. Just three months before King Tutus has
his conversation with Juan. Jabber was arrested by federal agents
in Prague in April twenty fourteen for trying to sell
weapons to the FARC, the Colombian rebel group. From the
(27:26):
fall of twenty twelve through early twenty fourteen, Jabber had
met with Colombian men he believed were representatives of the FARC.
Turns out they weren't with the FARC, but instead they
were undercover informants for the US Drug Enforcement Administration the DEA.
(27:46):
Following his arrest, Jabber was extradited to New York and
pleaded guilty to conspiring to provide material support to a
terrorist organization. He was sentenced to fifteen years in prison.
Gin Tautas suspects that wont On, like the Colombians in Prague,
isn't really with the FARC either, but instead an agent
(28:07):
of the US government. This gingoutis guy. He smells a
rat and it only took him a couple of phone
calls with Juan and you know what guingetutis is right.
Every time is twelve forty two pm local Montenegro time
(28:31):
dates October eight, twenty fourteen.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
This is a meeting between CS one, two.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
And three and Fabrio Georgeski Christ John In two young
known males in Laudos something I want to head.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You may have guessed this because it's kind of weird
that someone with the FARC would record their conversations, but
one is not with the FARC. He's with the DEA.
That's in the next episode. This is up in arms,
season two of Alphabet Boys. Alphabet Boys is a production
(29:18):
of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. The show is reported,
written and hosted by me Trevor Aaronson. For more information
about this series or to drop us a tip, head
to our website Alphabet Boys dot xyz. You can contact
me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. The show's
instagram is Alphabet Boys dot pot. If you're enjoying Alphabet Boys,
(29:40):
tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations are the
best recommendations, and if you want to see an illegal
arms deal from the inside again, it's Alphabet Boys dot xyz.
You'll find undercover recordings and documents related to Flavio's case. Finally,
you can help us ride the algorithms by leaving it
or review on your favorite podcast app that helps other
(30:03):
people find us. And thanks for listening.
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