March 28, 2025 • 26 mins
Welcome back to Amazing Wildlife! We are kicking off season 4 by learning all about meerkats. In this episode, Marco and Rick learn how a specific type of stress can make a meerkat family a more cohesive and healthier group. Senior Wildlife Care Specialist Lacy Pearson tells us about eustress, meerkat mobs, and how these social animals learn to work together.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
What is the s World?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Marco Went and this this is Amazing Wildlife, a
podcast where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around
the world and uncovered fascinating animal facts. Now. This podcast
is in production with iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance, the international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees
the San Diego Zoo where we are right now and
the Safari Park.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Rick, I am super pumped. It's season four, right.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
We're also adding a little bit of a different flavor
for our listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
If you're not aware.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yet, we are adding a visual component. So we have
our amazing our stupendency piece. There, resist stunts, Amanda, our
videographer going to be listen Amanda. So this is going
to be super exciting for us, right, So a new
new kind of aspect for our guest experience Amazing Wildlife.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
That's true, and so it does change the format a
little bit. So for our listeners that have been with
us over the years, it's still all the cool stuff,
but the format change is little and if you want now,
the videos are going to drop a little bit later
than the audio. So if you are watching this now,
thanks for joining us already. If you'd like to watch
it though, and you're just listening, well YouTube, probably maybe
somewhere else, right.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Right, we're gonna tease it a little bit, right, But
what do you suggest for us?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I think maybe they should follow you on Instagram as
zoology Marco, right, because is that way we can let
people know.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
On Instagram and TikTok by the way, let TikTok talk,
but please follow zoology rick here ig.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Pretty much IG is my home. Yeah, yeah, that is
the best way to do it, and that way we
can let people know when the videos drop as well.
So but yeah, and if audio only is your thing,
well then stick with us because this is gonna be
an amazing season.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
But you know, hey, while we're talking that, I kind
of noticed, did you bring a show and Tell items?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I did bring some show and tell?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, what is?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
This is our latest version of the San Diegos Wildlife
Alliance Journal. So we've got meerkats and the article is
so cool. A lot of times people think your catch
is cute, cuddly, fun and are cute. Yeah there cuddly
if you're also a merk cat. I suppose that's in
the family totally. But the article is fascinating. Wouldn't it
be great to talk to the person who wrote it,
(02:09):
and she happens to be a wildlifecare specialist here at
the San Diego Zoo. I love it that takes care
of meerkats. Lacey, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Yeah, thank you Rick and Marco for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Thanks so excited. Good morning, good morning.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
There is so much in this article that's absolutely fascinating
that the way you wrote it in kind of layers
to bring the person reading it through. I want you
to do the most exact same thing here in the
sense of the very first thing you talk about is
a word Marco has been obsessed with.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yes, you stress, right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
But it's stressed you st okay, so U s t.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
R e s s U stress.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yeah, and that's a very fancy way of saying a
light stressor something that builds confidence or resiliency.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I mean that was fascinating for me, especially for social animals,
social dynamics, even birds and flocks. But I never really
thought of these specs in meerkats, you know. But before
we like deep dive into that.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Burrow so to speak.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Like that, you like that, Amanda? It was not good, Yeah,
thank you. You know, I was actually kind.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Of curious assuming our listeners.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Don't know what a meer cat is. Man, you can't
describe it for us a little bit right because I'm
kind of wondering.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
It's a small mammal.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
It's a type of mongoose, and it's light tan with
some striping on the back, so horizontal stripes along its body,
and then a little bit black on the tail, with
some black around the eyes.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Really small ears and a long pointy noise.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Made famous a little bit by Timoon from.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
The line, oh yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
A couple of decades ago, there was a TV show
on one of the animal programs that it was like
a series following a family, which might have been a
little dramatized for television. But we want to talk about
the facts. We want to talk about the facts. You stress.
You'd mentioned as a stressor that's a light stressor that
can then help the individual grow from that. What came
to mind is a parent right away. What came to
(03:57):
mind was teaching my daughter to ride a bike. There's
very stress full, white knuckling, you know, the thing she did. Fine,
I was hit, but in the sense that initial stress
of learning something new, but once you make it through that,
it actually you grow from it. So how does that
apply to meer cat life? Because they don't ride bikes.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
No, they don't ride bikes well yet, so much of
what meer cats do is learned behavior. So they do
have some natural tendencies. When they're first born, they do
move their little paws around almost like they're digging, but
they're looking around as though they have no clue what
this behavior.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Is or what the purpose is.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
So a lot of what they do in life is
a learned behavior that they learn from watching their mob
mates and then mimicking. And so when they mimic those behaviors,
they learn that, oh, when I do this, I can
uncover meal worms and I eat them because everyone else
is eating them and they taste good or they're fulfilling
or whatever it is that they're being reinforced by. So
they start with u stress on their own right away.
(04:55):
When they start learning to walk, they're falling down all
the time, just like you're saying with your kiddos, you
know your kindo learns to walk.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
It's so important to let them fall. It's hard. It's
really hard to watch them fall.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
But the more they fall, the better they get it
balanced and they learn resiliency and they learn to trust
themselves to start walking.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Enough that they can run.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
So it's all the behaviors they do that meer cats
do and that humans do help to build our resiliency
for new activities. And then the meerkat world, you stress,
is even more important later to learn to cope with
the environment as a whole, and not just the immediate
things that we think about like eating and sunbathing and sleeping.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
I mean, there's a lot of dynamics too, right, And well, yeah,
within the mob, you know, the relationships between the individuals.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I mean we're talking Africa and the desert. Yeah, the
different predators, serviles and birds of prey.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Are coming over, so a lot of things that these
animals have to kind of negotiate on a day to
day right.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, And I got to jump in real quick. We
have used this word a couple of times. Just to clarify.
You said mob mates, you said in the mob. So
just to let everybody know, I'm a meerkat. Collective group
is called a mob, and I think it's appropriate. We've
worked with meerkats plenty. Where do you think the name
mob of meerkats comes from?
Speaker 5 (06:06):
I think it comes from their big attitudes. They're really
really confident in themselves, and oftentimes that leads to a
dispute amongst mob mates.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
If you will, we see.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Them, if they feel intimidated by anything, they will either
run away from it or they mob. They all kind
of run at the item at once to scare it away,
and that's I think where the term probably originated.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It makes sense.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Yeah, it definitely makes sense that they're big attitudes. For sure,
they're very confident.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh that's great, And honestly, in the article, I loved
that what you were referring to you and you were
talking about the mob here at the San Diego Zoo,
write certain dynamics that happened. Could you, for our listeners
kind of describe briefly what happened here in this wonderful story.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
Yeah, of course, just to give a little bit of background,
we did have a meerkat matriarch, so meerkats live in
a matriarchal society, and our dominant female at the time
had passed on. She was very bold and her daughters
had to decide who was the to be the next matriarch,
and so that always brings a lot of tension into
the mob.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Those decide it.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Yeah, it's not, it's more of a situation.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
It is. Yeah, it's it's definitely not an election. It's not.
It's not very kind.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
Everyone kind of throws their hat in the rings, so
to speak, but they do so by hip checking each other,
so throwing hips and then biting at each other and
vocalizing at each other in a it's not such a
nice sound. Could be a dominant, very very big display
of dominance, and when five or more meerkats are showing
that dominance, it can become bloody. So it's pretty violent looking.
(07:41):
But it's very important for them to be able to
identify who the next matriarch is because they're all going
to help raise those pups, and even if that's just
so that next time they can be matriarch, they are
going to assist in raising those pups so that in
the future they can maybe get their genetics spread. But
either way, they live in family groups, so by helping
(08:01):
you raise those pups, they're helping to raise their distant siblings.
So they are helping to further their own genetics. So
we think that's probably what draws that behavior a little more.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
There's so much there, right, that's so many.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I digress, but real quick for you go further into
the family that we have here. Yeah, you mentioned in
the article too, that sort of what you just talked about.
It sort of seems when you look at it from
the outside, Oh, they're collectively working together to raise the young.
But I love the way you put us like, but
that's not exactly. It's like, it's more of us. They're not.
It's not altruistic. They're not looking at the family as
like over supporting each other. It really is so I
(08:35):
can get in there, hopefully next in line to be
in charge should the matriarch pass away or something happen
to her.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Yeah, there's definitely some underlying quid pro quo there building.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Track the family here.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
So we at a certain.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
Point we only had females and they were all fighting
for it's matriarchy, but there wasn't a male and so
it made it a little bit confusing for them.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
And we were seeing a lot of violence.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
And in the past, if the violence gets to a
certain point, they don't have the to leave their habitat.
Like in the wild, they would just move on to
another space, which oftentimes could lead to death because they're
alone until they find another mob willing to take them in.
So we're not okay with death as an option, so
we move them to their own separate habitat and we
(09:16):
give them their own separate mob. So the individuals that
they do have a bond with still that they are
getting along with, we would separate them. So at a
certain point we had two separate groups with two females
in each group. Then we started witnessing that when there's
only two meerkats in a mob, that means one has
to be on sentry duty. Dy sentry duty is, thank
(09:37):
you MARKA sentry duty is when you're watching for predators
or any kind of danger that's on the horizon. So
they're watching out for hawks, snakes. We have an open
habitat here, open air habitat, so we do have hawks
in the area who come by, and we have airplanes
that are very feisty. So our meerkats are on sentry
duty half the day. But when they're on sentry duty,
(09:58):
they can't be eating to be sunning, and they can't
be digging, and so we started to notice that their
nails were getting a little bit longer from having less
time to self maintained.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Oh wow, not having enough meerkats.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
There's not enough meer cats to help share that responsibility, right,
And so we thought, okay, it would be great if
we could put them together. But they don't like being together.
They're having this really big dispute. What are we going
to do? And we thought, well, we recognize that here
in managed care, we have this situation where we're taking
away so much of the stress that you find in
(10:31):
wild animals, right, which we think of as ethically good.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Right, we make sure they don't enough food. We don't
want people to be stressed. We don't want animals to
be stressed. So we took away your predators. You're having
to search for food in a very hot climate. San
Diego is beautiful weather.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
You have all the food you could ever want here,
and most of the predators are gone because there's people
here all the time. And so we recognize that maybe
part of the reason that they are seemingly altruistic in
nature is because they are bonded from having to work
together against themselves against all of these outer stressors kind
(11:07):
of makes you feel like my brothers, you know, like
sometimes I kind of get a little upste with them
from time to time.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But if someone comes to my brother, right.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yes, yes, yeah, exactly, that's exactly it.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
So you're more likely to if you and he both
came together to make breakfast on a regular basis, right,
you would be more likely to defend him if someone
was going to come at absolutely. Yeah, no, I think
that's a pro. Well, that's exactly what merkats do. They
do not share food, like that is the one thing
they do not share. We'll all sleep together in the
(11:40):
same den, we'll all help dig around, and we'll all
help do sentry duty. But I am not going to share, absolutely,
which I totally get.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Wow, So you had the two moms, but they're too
focused on other certain dynamics of having a smaller mob,
like you mentioned the sentinel looking out and the other
one can maybe express those other behaviors that you're looking for.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
Right, So we tried to find a way of bringing
in a light stress or a U stress to their
use stresser cap existence. And we thought, we have so
many other animals here that they've never encountered.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
We have elephants. That's a very pungent feces from elephants.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
And that's the great sense of smell is the size
of a meerkat. If I were a merkat coming upon
an elephant fecal pile for the first time, I would
be really intimidated. That's a strange smell. It's a humongous
animal that could definitely crush me. It's very intimidating. So
we put that all over the habitat, hoping that maybe
the sense of a new animal will help change the
(12:43):
focus from aggression inward to protection from outward.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah, external factors, right, I mean no, no, it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I mean exturing in Africa, you know, like I'm not
with my buddies, my mom, We're chilling, we're having a
great time, and the big herd elephants come by. So
I'm gonna thumb the sentinel, get alert, let's get in
those burroughs.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, And I was about to say, even if it's
not something just like a big animal, that might be scary,
but if it is an actual true predator that might
be trying to hunt them, that sentinel puts out those
alarm calls. The group collectively then responds and does their
thing to go under or whatever they need to do.
Mob together, if it's a snake, whatever it may be.
So by adding these things in these youth stressors that
(13:24):
clearly in the wild would make a mob act collectively
to protect each other. What did we see here on
this end of the zoo.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
It seems to have worked as we had hypothesized, so
we were very excited. It seemed like the meerkats responded
as we had hoped. They all individually identified a concern.
They all went down the same tunnel, which we identify
as it's most likely their denning space.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
It's where they come out first thing in the morning.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
They all went down there separately, and then after a
couple of hours down there together when they came back up,
we offered food.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
There were no discussions we.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
Call them hip checking, aggressing toward each other, no vocalizations
that were aggressive, and they seem to be a lot
more cohesive. So this is something that we thought, well
that it could be a one off, right, We don't know. Yeah,
So we've tried a number of times since and we
varied the opportunity for you stress that we offer. So
(14:19):
we've put elephant feces. We've done other animals feces. We
have a kite that we have flown in the air
with the sound of a hawk. Yeah, that one was
very effective and they actually monitored that area for a
couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
They were very hyper vigilant about anything coming over and real.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Quick with all the trees. We have. Hats off to
whoever flew that kite.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
That's amazing totally.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
It's all the different dynamics of what you were thinking about,
you know, all this different kind of input that happens
out in Africa that you're replicating here at.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
The San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I mean, these animals evolved for certain reasons, any certain dynamics,
So that's really great that it worked out that way
for you.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, really fascinating too that throughout. I mean both Mark
and I have thirty years yeah, in the businesses roughly
close and in all the years we've been working with
animals before coming to the podcast world, to look back
at what it was like ten, fifteen, twenty years ago,
the belief, like you had said, let's try and remove
as much stress from these animals lives as possible. To
(15:26):
then come full circle and realize well, actually, certain stress
is a really good thing for them because if it
helps them express other dynamics of their life, whatever may be,
And so for meerkats in this case, that social bond
becomes stronger. In the article, you mentioned then that these
two groups were separate, like you had said here, Yes,
but then doing these youth stressors, you were able to
(15:46):
bring all four together. Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Yeah, all four lived together, and a couple of them
still live here, still live together. But yeah, all four
lived together very well for the next I think we
did that back in twenty twenty three. So for the
next at least a year, the four females were living
together in harmony and they did some hip checking, which
is normal and natural. But we didn't see that overt
(16:08):
aggression that would cause us to want to separate again
from that point on, and we didn't have to reintroduce
these u stress opportunities frequently. Once we started seeing an
uptick in aggression, that could mean a very broad number
of things. Either there's a change in the diet that
needs to be addressed, or there's a health concern.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So, because there's so much going on.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
In the society of meerkat world, we would kind of
play with what we thought the purpose was, and if
it seemed like it was aggression towards just trying to
establish a matriarchy, then we could add in just a
light YOUU stress. I think since fall of twenty twenty three,
we've maybe offered four opportunities for U stress, for light
use stress. So it's not been something we've had to
(16:51):
use frequently, but every time that we've used it has
actually changed the group dynamic in a positive way and
made them work closer together.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Nice.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Yeah, nice.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
At what point there was a male? Yeah, So I
want to just say before explain all because it's freaking fascinating.
When I was working with meerkats way back in the day,
the idea of introducing a new one or even there
was even issues with like if someone had to go
up to the vet hospital and they come back, Yes,
there was always just like the reintroduction process could be
super stressful and they might not accept them and there's
(17:23):
gonna be lots of teeth and claws and another vet
visit possibly because of that. So reading this article, I
was like, no, so please tell us how it happened.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yeah, So we weren't nervous this is a whole new meerkat.
This isn't a sibling that you've known in a past
life and you thought you evicted them long ago and
now they're back and it's like, oh, well, maybe they
never left.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That's my bad.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
And a male to boot right.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
But it's a male.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Yeah, And typically introducing a male is a little less
stressful for us, I will say, oh, yeah than introducing
a female. A female is a potential matriarch, and there's
a little bit more competition in the So that's that's
more stressful for me.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
But that's use capital.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yes for sure.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Yeah, we introduced the male. We did a very similar setting.
Everyone had access to every habitat separately, and then we
brought in I think we had different sets that time
from someone else, what have you, And everything happened almost
exactly the same.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
We had all of the females go to the male.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
There was a lot of hip checking, there was a
lot of vocalization, and then they all went down to
their denning area where they had been familiar. And this
male had not been very familiar with the dynamic of
the group, which is fascinating because he'd had access to
the habitat, but a meer cat. Having a habitat without
another meer cat is very different than having another meer
(18:50):
cat to show you where the bolt holes are, which
are the holes they used to get away from predators,
or where do we done at night? So he had
seen everything, but it didn't have that meaning to it.
And then you could see once he had been introduced
to that group of females, he actually followed them down
the den hole to the den and when they all
came out, they were again just one family group that
(19:12):
was cohesive and they ate food all in front of us.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
And from that moment on he's been a part of it.
And now he's a dad.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Say yeah, yeah, so when were the babies born?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So we had the pups born August twentieth. We had
four pups born.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And they are the cutest.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I was seeing some of those pictures on the magazine.
Yeah right, this is the photographers see man, the cutest
little babies. But they got a lot to learn out
there right with that mom there.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
That's exciting.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah wow, So I didn't realize there was so much
involved with just the social dynamics of meerkats. Hopefully our
listeners when they come to the san Diego Zoo and
they see our meer cats, so maybe like stop for
a second and just really look and observe the little
subtle nuances.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
It's going on, right, Yeah, I hope.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
So, I mean that I could stand there all day
and watch them because it's always different, it's always changing,
and they're just they have so much to do.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
They're so busy.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I always have to do in your meerkat.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
And it's totally applicable too.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I mean, not just for our listeners outside of the
zoo world, but for professionals that we work alongside with.
I'm thinking for flocks, maybe an individual being introduced to
a flock, or maybe a different mammal herd species. You know,
this is a really fascinating way of approaching those things.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So yeah, kudos to you guys. That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, it's funny you had mentioned that too, because when
I was reading the articles, like it reminds me of
those team building things where it's like you're trust well, I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Not good to trust fall because I like to do
the trust Ask me about the trust fall.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You have trust issues?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Maybe it's a little bit. That's another No.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Talking collectively about get everyone together to solve a problem,
and therefore you work together cohesively to solve that problem,
you become a stronger unit of group totally. So it's
one of those things where I can see how that
would work, how that dynamic would work then for meerkats,
and how it works in this stance, there's that collective
thing we need to take care of or deal with.
So right now, you're my buddy, and the kind of
con mention with your brother. It's like, no one's going
(20:55):
to come mess with my brother. I'll mess with him
sometimes I will, yeah, but no one else. So it's
really kind of cool. So how we can see some
of these behaviors are fasting interesting, Like, oh my gosh,
that's great. But it's like, oh yeah, that kind of
makes sense too, right right. Is there anything that we
haven't covered yet about mere Cash that you think our
listeners should know?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Do you have like a favorite fact too? I'm always
like your number one favorite fact.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
That My number one favorite fact is that they lose
about five percent of their body weight overnight overnight treadmill,
which as they sleep, their metabolism is so high that
they have to spend almost the full day looking for
food which is when you think about that, that's a
whole other reason why you have to have more than
just two of you. Someone's got to watch for predators
(21:37):
while you're out there trying to eat. And then when
we have a pregnant mother, she obviously eats more. But
then once she gave birth to the pups, you could
really see her appetite pick up.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
And for anyone who's nursed a.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Baby, they know as well, your your calorie intake has
to be even more when you're nursing. Yeah, it's fascinating
that they are obligate cooperative readers because they need someone
to watch the pups because moms metabolism is so high
she actually has to spend the entire day eating in
order to just.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Replace that calorie deficit.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
Wow, So she's only down in the tunnel with the
pups to nurse them, and then the rest of her
day is just looking for food, looking for food, and
someone else is in the den with the pups, usually
another female.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
You use a really fancy term. No, don't be sorry.
I love it because that allows us to talk about
it and educate people. Obligate cooperative breeder.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, cooperative what you've.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Described is that the matriarch has the pups, she nurses,
but everyone else kind of babysits for her washy feet.
What does obligate cooperative breeder? Mean? Is that just basically
defining what we've already kind of talked.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
About, or kind of it's saying.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
You know, Meerkats are always thought to be these altruistic
animals where they work together for the better of the mob,
and that's what we say so often, But the reality
of it is they're probably less altruistic than we think.
They're probably require that many hands to make the work lighter,
so to speak, and if they didn't have those other individuals,
they probably wouldn't be able to reproduce successfully. So they
(23:03):
are obligate in the sense that they have to have
others in order to successfully give birth and raise the
birth to adulthood.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So they're obligated to act cooperatively so they can breed
and therefore carry their genetics on. Yes, that's awesome. Yeah,
that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Thank you for the same.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I'm piece it together because I think a lot of
times in our world, we know these scientific terms and
we know what we're talking about when it comes to
social behaviors, and we use these terms without realizing some people,
especially those on the other side of the camera or
listening to our podcast, need a little more frameing out
of what that means. And then it makes sense, you know.
And that's the beauty of this podcast and what we
get to do. We get to talk to specialists like
(23:42):
yourself who know this stuff inside and out. We can
bring it them to those who want to learn this
stuff as well. So thank you so.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Much, so much, thank you for having met time talking
about it.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Thank you know, wonderful way to start season four. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I'm really digging the visual components and we bring up
the and along with these adventures seas, it's going to
be really great.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
And here right, Tim bucktoo in case the guests.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
In the background, it's zoo, right, sorts of.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Animals, all sorts of mammals running around in copletingly our
little kids over here and nearby as well.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
But there's so much happening. But again, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Well, I had no idea, you stress man. That's my
new favorite word of the day.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It was your favorite this morning when we showed up.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
That's such a.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Fun word and so much behind it. Tea, right, I
learned so much this episode.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, and that's what I thought was cool too, is
the fact that you know, reading this article now, having
the opportunity to talk to her. She's so for lack
of a better term, hands in the dirt with the
mirror cast. She knows everything about it, right, and so
it's so cool to be able to have that opportunity
here and kick off season four with this here at
the zoo. Yes, it might be a little ambiance sound,
but I think you're here in Timbuck two at the
zoo is a great spot to maybe do some repisodes.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Oh I love it.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Not only is the auditory experience now with the visual component,
and I'd see all these adventures and bring a mand
along with us along the way.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So I'm super pumped about that. But it makes me think, like, man,
what are that going on? What's next?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Let me actually go back to the end of season
three where we talked to doctor Oliver Ryder about the
Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, right, so we.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Talked him because we're teasing it. This year, twenty twenty
five is the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo. Oh,
so I think we should go back to the Safari Park,
okay and talk to somebody who knows a lot about
the very beginnings of the Frozen Zoo to kind of
kick off the fiftieth anniversary way. I like it.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
We get to go back to the park. I'm all
about there.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You go, Gar, so be sure to subscribing fun in the
next time when we get to find out a little
more about what started and how it all got started
really at the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I'll Marko Went and I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Thanks for listening or watching. For more information about the
San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go
to sd zw a dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a
production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikia Swinton and
Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra Spreen and
(25:56):
Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
What is the s World?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Marco Went and this this is Amazing Wildlife, a
podcast where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around
the world and uncovered fascinating animal facts. Now. This podcast
is in production with iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance, the international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees
the San Diego Zoo where we are right now and
the Safari Park.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Rick, I am super pumped. It's season four, right.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
We're also adding a little bit of a different flavor
for our listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
If you're not aware.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yet, we are adding a visual component. So we have
our amazing our stupendency piece. There, resist stunts, Amanda, our
videographer going to be listen Amanda. So this is going
to be super exciting for us, right, So a new
new kind of aspect for our guest experience Amazing Wildlife.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
That's true, and so it does change the format a
little bit. So for our listeners that have been with
us over the years, it's still all the cool stuff,
but the format change is little and if you want now,
the videos are going to drop a little bit later
than the audio. So if you are watching this now,
thanks for joining us already. If you'd like to watch
it though, and you're just listening, well YouTube, probably maybe
somewhere else, right.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Right, we're gonna tease it a little bit, right, But
what do you suggest for us?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I think maybe they should follow you on Instagram as
zoology Marco, right, because is that way we can let
people know.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
On Instagram and TikTok by the way, let TikTok talk,
but please follow zoology rick here ig.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Pretty much IG is my home. Yeah, yeah, that is
the best way to do it, and that way we
can let people know when the videos drop as well.
So but yeah, and if audio only is your thing,
well then stick with us because this is gonna be
an amazing season.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
But you know, hey, while we're talking that, I kind
of noticed, did you bring a show and Tell items?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I did bring some show and tell?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, what is?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
This is our latest version of the San Diegos Wildlife
Alliance Journal. So we've got meerkats and the article is
so cool. A lot of times people think your catch
is cute, cuddly, fun and are cute. Yeah there cuddly
if you're also a merk cat. I suppose that's in
the family totally. But the article is fascinating. Wouldn't it
be great to talk to the person who wrote it,
(02:09):
and she happens to be a wildlifecare specialist here at
the San Diego Zoo. I love it that takes care
of meerkats. Lacey, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Yeah, thank you Rick and Marco for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Thanks so excited. Good morning, good morning.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
There is so much in this article that's absolutely fascinating
that the way you wrote it in kind of layers
to bring the person reading it through. I want you
to do the most exact same thing here in the
sense of the very first thing you talk about is
a word Marco has been obsessed with.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yes, you stress, right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
But it's stressed you st okay, so U s t.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
R e s s U stress.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yeah, and that's a very fancy way of saying a
light stressor something that builds confidence or resiliency.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I mean that was fascinating for me, especially for social animals,
social dynamics, even birds and flocks. But I never really
thought of these specs in meerkats, you know. But before
we like deep dive into that.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Burrow so to speak.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Like that, you like that, Amanda? It was not good, Yeah,
thank you. You know, I was actually kind.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Of curious assuming our listeners.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Don't know what a meer cat is. Man, you can't
describe it for us a little bit right because I'm
kind of wondering.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
It's a small mammal.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
It's a type of mongoose, and it's light tan with
some striping on the back, so horizontal stripes along its body,
and then a little bit black on the tail, with
some black around the eyes.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Really small ears and a long pointy noise.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Made famous a little bit by Timoon from.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
The line, oh yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
A couple of decades ago, there was a TV show
on one of the animal programs that it was like
a series following a family, which might have been a
little dramatized for television. But we want to talk about
the facts. We want to talk about the facts. You stress.
You'd mentioned as a stressor that's a light stressor that
can then help the individual grow from that. What came
to mind is a parent right away. What came to
(03:57):
mind was teaching my daughter to ride a bike. There's
very stress full, white knuckling, you know, the thing she did. Fine,
I was hit, but in the sense that initial stress
of learning something new, but once you make it through that,
it actually you grow from it. So how does that
apply to meer cat life? Because they don't ride bikes.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
No, they don't ride bikes well yet, so much of
what meer cats do is learned behavior. So they do
have some natural tendencies. When they're first born, they do
move their little paws around almost like they're digging, but
they're looking around as though they have no clue what
this behavior.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Is or what the purpose is.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
So a lot of what they do in life is
a learned behavior that they learn from watching their mob
mates and then mimicking. And so when they mimic those behaviors,
they learn that, oh, when I do this, I can
uncover meal worms and I eat them because everyone else
is eating them and they taste good or they're fulfilling
or whatever it is that they're being reinforced by. So
they start with u stress on their own right away.
(04:55):
When they start learning to walk, they're falling down all
the time, just like you're saying with your kiddos, you
know your kindo learns to walk.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
It's so important to let them fall. It's hard. It's
really hard to watch them fall.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
But the more they fall, the better they get it
balanced and they learn resiliency and they learn to trust
themselves to start walking.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Enough that they can run.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
So it's all the behaviors they do that meer cats
do and that humans do help to build our resiliency
for new activities. And then the meerkat world, you stress,
is even more important later to learn to cope with
the environment as a whole, and not just the immediate
things that we think about like eating and sunbathing and sleeping.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
I mean, there's a lot of dynamics too, right, And well, yeah,
within the mob, you know, the relationships between the individuals.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I mean we're talking Africa and the desert. Yeah, the
different predators, serviles and birds of prey.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Are coming over, so a lot of things that these
animals have to kind of negotiate on a day to
day right.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, And I got to jump in real quick. We
have used this word a couple of times. Just to clarify.
You said mob mates, you said in the mob. So
just to let everybody know, I'm a meerkat. Collective group
is called a mob, and I think it's appropriate. We've
worked with meerkats plenty. Where do you think the name
mob of meerkats comes from?
Speaker 5 (06:06):
I think it comes from their big attitudes. They're really
really confident in themselves, and oftentimes that leads to a
dispute amongst mob mates.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
If you will, we see.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Them, if they feel intimidated by anything, they will either
run away from it or they mob. They all kind
of run at the item at once to scare it away,
and that's I think where the term probably originated.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It makes sense.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Yeah, it definitely makes sense that they're big attitudes. For sure,
they're very confident.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh that's great, And honestly, in the article, I loved
that what you were referring to you and you were
talking about the mob here at the San Diego Zoo,
write certain dynamics that happened. Could you, for our listeners
kind of describe briefly what happened here in this wonderful story.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
Yeah, of course, just to give a little bit of background,
we did have a meerkat matriarch, so meerkats live in
a matriarchal society, and our dominant female at the time
had passed on. She was very bold and her daughters
had to decide who was the to be the next matriarch,
and so that always brings a lot of tension into
the mob.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Those decide it.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Yeah, it's not, it's more of a situation.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
It is. Yeah, it's it's definitely not an election. It's not.
It's not very kind.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
Everyone kind of throws their hat in the rings, so
to speak, but they do so by hip checking each other,
so throwing hips and then biting at each other and
vocalizing at each other in a it's not such a
nice sound. Could be a dominant, very very big display
of dominance, and when five or more meerkats are showing
that dominance, it can become bloody. So it's pretty violent looking.
(07:41):
But it's very important for them to be able to
identify who the next matriarch is because they're all going
to help raise those pups, and even if that's just
so that next time they can be matriarch, they are
going to assist in raising those pups so that in
the future they can maybe get their genetics spread. But
either way, they live in family groups, so by helping
(08:01):
you raise those pups, they're helping to raise their distant siblings.
So they are helping to further their own genetics. So
we think that's probably what draws that behavior a little more.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
There's so much there, right, that's so many.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I digress, but real quick for you go further into
the family that we have here. Yeah, you mentioned in
the article too, that sort of what you just talked about.
It sort of seems when you look at it from
the outside, Oh, they're collectively working together to raise the young.
But I love the way you put us like, but
that's not exactly. It's like, it's more of us. They're not.
It's not altruistic. They're not looking at the family as
like over supporting each other. It really is so I
(08:35):
can get in there, hopefully next in line to be
in charge should the matriarch pass away or something happen
to her.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Yeah, there's definitely some underlying quid pro quo there building.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Track the family here.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
So we at a certain.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
Point we only had females and they were all fighting
for it's matriarchy, but there wasn't a male and so
it made it a little bit confusing for them.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
And we were seeing a lot of violence.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
And in the past, if the violence gets to a
certain point, they don't have the to leave their habitat.
Like in the wild, they would just move on to
another space, which oftentimes could lead to death because they're
alone until they find another mob willing to take them in.
So we're not okay with death as an option, so
we move them to their own separate habitat and we
(09:16):
give them their own separate mob. So the individuals that
they do have a bond with still that they are
getting along with, we would separate them. So at a
certain point we had two separate groups with two females
in each group. Then we started witnessing that when there's
only two meerkats in a mob, that means one has
to be on sentry duty. Dy sentry duty is, thank
(09:37):
you MARKA sentry duty is when you're watching for predators
or any kind of danger that's on the horizon. So
they're watching out for hawks, snakes. We have an open
habitat here, open air habitat, so we do have hawks
in the area who come by, and we have airplanes
that are very feisty. So our meerkats are on sentry
duty half the day. But when they're on sentry duty,
(09:58):
they can't be eating to be sunning, and they can't
be digging, and so we started to notice that their
nails were getting a little bit longer from having less
time to self maintained.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Oh wow, not having enough meerkats.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
There's not enough meer cats to help share that responsibility, right,
And so we thought, okay, it would be great if
we could put them together. But they don't like being together.
They're having this really big dispute. What are we going
to do? And we thought, well, we recognize that here
in managed care, we have this situation where we're taking
away so much of the stress that you find in
(10:31):
wild animals, right, which we think of as ethically good.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Right, we make sure they don't enough food. We don't
want people to be stressed. We don't want animals to
be stressed. So we took away your predators. You're having
to search for food in a very hot climate. San
Diego is beautiful weather.
Speaker 5 (10:46):
You have all the food you could ever want here,
and most of the predators are gone because there's people
here all the time. And so we recognize that maybe
part of the reason that they are seemingly altruistic in
nature is because they are bonded from having to work
together against themselves against all of these outer stressors kind
(11:07):
of makes you feel like my brothers, you know, like
sometimes I kind of get a little upste with them
from time to time.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But if someone comes to my brother, right.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yes, yes, yeah, exactly, that's exactly it.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
So you're more likely to if you and he both
came together to make breakfast on a regular basis, right,
you would be more likely to defend him if someone
was going to come at absolutely. Yeah, no, I think
that's a pro. Well, that's exactly what merkats do. They
do not share food, like that is the one thing
they do not share. We'll all sleep together in the
(11:40):
same den, we'll all help dig around, and we'll all
help do sentry duty. But I am not going to share, absolutely,
which I totally get.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Wow, So you had the two moms, but they're too
focused on other certain dynamics of having a smaller mob,
like you mentioned the sentinel looking out and the other
one can maybe express those other behaviors that you're looking for.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
Right, So we tried to find a way of bringing
in a light stress or a U stress to their
use stresser cap existence. And we thought, we have so
many other animals here that they've never encountered.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
We have elephants. That's a very pungent feces from elephants.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
And that's the great sense of smell is the size
of a meerkat. If I were a merkat coming upon
an elephant fecal pile for the first time, I would
be really intimidated. That's a strange smell. It's a humongous
animal that could definitely crush me. It's very intimidating. So
we put that all over the habitat, hoping that maybe
the sense of a new animal will help change the
(12:43):
focus from aggression inward to protection from outward.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah, external factors, right, I mean no, no, it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I mean exturing in Africa, you know, like I'm not
with my buddies, my mom, We're chilling, we're having a
great time, and the big herd elephants come by. So
I'm gonna thumb the sentinel, get alert, let's get in
those burroughs.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, And I was about to say, even if it's
not something just like a big animal, that might be scary,
but if it is an actual true predator that might
be trying to hunt them, that sentinel puts out those
alarm calls. The group collectively then responds and does their
thing to go under or whatever they need to do.
Mob together, if it's a snake, whatever it may be.
So by adding these things in these youth stressors that
(13:24):
clearly in the wild would make a mob act collectively
to protect each other. What did we see here on
this end of the zoo.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
It seems to have worked as we had hypothesized, so
we were very excited. It seemed like the meerkats responded
as we had hoped. They all individually identified a concern.
They all went down the same tunnel, which we identify
as it's most likely their denning space.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
It's where they come out first thing in the morning.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
They all went down there separately, and then after a
couple of hours down there together when they came back up,
we offered food.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
There were no discussions we.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
Call them hip checking, aggressing toward each other, no vocalizations
that were aggressive, and they seem to be a lot
more cohesive. So this is something that we thought, well
that it could be a one off, right, We don't know. Yeah,
So we've tried a number of times since and we
varied the opportunity for you stress that we offer. So
(14:19):
we've put elephant feces. We've done other animals feces. We
have a kite that we have flown in the air
with the sound of a hawk. Yeah, that one was
very effective and they actually monitored that area for a
couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
They were very hyper vigilant about anything coming over and real.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Quick with all the trees. We have. Hats off to
whoever flew that kite.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
That's amazing totally.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
It's all the different dynamics of what you were thinking about,
you know, all this different kind of input that happens
out in Africa that you're replicating here at.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
The San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I mean, these animals evolved for certain reasons, any certain dynamics,
So that's really great that it worked out that way
for you.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, really fascinating too that throughout. I mean both Mark
and I have thirty years yeah, in the businesses roughly
close and in all the years we've been working with
animals before coming to the podcast world, to look back
at what it was like ten, fifteen, twenty years ago,
the belief, like you had said, let's try and remove
as much stress from these animals lives as possible. To
(15:26):
then come full circle and realize well, actually, certain stress
is a really good thing for them because if it
helps them express other dynamics of their life, whatever may be,
And so for meerkats in this case, that social bond
becomes stronger. In the article, you mentioned then that these
two groups were separate, like you had said here, Yes,
but then doing these youth stressors, you were able to
(15:46):
bring all four together. Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Yeah, all four lived together, and a couple of them
still live here, still live together. But yeah, all four
lived together very well for the next I think we
did that back in twenty twenty three. So for the
next at least a year, the four females were living
together in harmony and they did some hip checking, which
is normal and natural. But we didn't see that overt
(16:08):
aggression that would cause us to want to separate again
from that point on, and we didn't have to reintroduce
these u stress opportunities frequently. Once we started seeing an
uptick in aggression, that could mean a very broad number
of things. Either there's a change in the diet that
needs to be addressed, or there's a health concern.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So, because there's so much going on.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
In the society of meerkat world, we would kind of
play with what we thought the purpose was, and if
it seemed like it was aggression towards just trying to
establish a matriarchy, then we could add in just a
light YOUU stress. I think since fall of twenty twenty three,
we've maybe offered four opportunities for U stress, for light
use stress. So it's not been something we've had to
(16:51):
use frequently, but every time that we've used it has
actually changed the group dynamic in a positive way and
made them work closer together.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Nice.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Yeah, nice.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
At what point there was a male? Yeah, So I
want to just say before explain all because it's freaking fascinating.
When I was working with meerkats way back in the day,
the idea of introducing a new one or even there
was even issues with like if someone had to go
up to the vet hospital and they come back, Yes,
there was always just like the reintroduction process could be
super stressful and they might not accept them and there's
(17:23):
gonna be lots of teeth and claws and another vet
visit possibly because of that. So reading this article, I
was like, no, so please tell us how it happened.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yeah, So we weren't nervous this is a whole new meerkat.
This isn't a sibling that you've known in a past
life and you thought you evicted them long ago and
now they're back and it's like, oh, well, maybe they
never left.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That's my bad.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
And a male to boot right.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
But it's a male.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Yeah, And typically introducing a male is a little less
stressful for us, I will say, oh, yeah than introducing
a female. A female is a potential matriarch, and there's
a little bit more competition in the So that's that's
more stressful for me.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
But that's use capital.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yes for sure.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Yeah, we introduced the male. We did a very similar setting.
Everyone had access to every habitat separately, and then we
brought in I think we had different sets that time
from someone else, what have you, And everything happened almost
exactly the same.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
We had all of the females go to the male.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
There was a lot of hip checking, there was a
lot of vocalization, and then they all went down to
their denning area where they had been familiar. And this
male had not been very familiar with the dynamic of
the group, which is fascinating because he'd had access to
the habitat, but a meer cat. Having a habitat without
another meer cat is very different than having another meer
(18:50):
cat to show you where the bolt holes are, which
are the holes they used to get away from predators,
or where do we done at night? So he had
seen everything, but it didn't have that meaning to it.
And then you could see once he had been introduced
to that group of females, he actually followed them down
the den hole to the den and when they all
came out, they were again just one family group that
(19:12):
was cohesive and they ate food all in front of us.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
And from that moment on he's been a part of it.
And now he's a dad.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Say yeah, yeah, so when were the babies born?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So we had the pups born August twentieth. We had
four pups born.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And they are the cutest.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I was seeing some of those pictures on the magazine.
Yeah right, this is the photographers see man, the cutest
little babies. But they got a lot to learn out
there right with that mom there.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
That's exciting.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah wow, So I didn't realize there was so much
involved with just the social dynamics of meerkats. Hopefully our
listeners when they come to the san Diego Zoo and
they see our meer cats, so maybe like stop for
a second and just really look and observe the little
subtle nuances.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
It's going on, right, Yeah, I hope.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
So, I mean that I could stand there all day
and watch them because it's always different, it's always changing,
and they're just they have so much to do.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
They're so busy.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I always have to do in your meerkat.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
And it's totally applicable too.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I mean, not just for our listeners outside of the
zoo world, but for professionals that we work alongside with.
I'm thinking for flocks, maybe an individual being introduced to
a flock, or maybe a different mammal herd species. You know,
this is a really fascinating way of approaching those things.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So yeah, kudos to you guys. That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, it's funny you had mentioned that too, because when
I was reading the articles, like it reminds me of
those team building things where it's like you're trust well, I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Not good to trust fall because I like to do
the trust Ask me about the trust fall.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You have trust issues?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Maybe it's a little bit. That's another No.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Talking collectively about get everyone together to solve a problem,
and therefore you work together cohesively to solve that problem,
you become a stronger unit of group totally. So it's
one of those things where I can see how that
would work, how that dynamic would work then for meerkats,
and how it works in this stance, there's that collective
thing we need to take care of or deal with.
So right now, you're my buddy, and the kind of
con mention with your brother. It's like, no one's going
(20:55):
to come mess with my brother. I'll mess with him
sometimes I will, yeah, but no one else. So it's
really kind of cool. So how we can see some
of these behaviors are fasting interesting, Like, oh my gosh,
that's great. But it's like, oh yeah, that kind of
makes sense too, right right. Is there anything that we
haven't covered yet about mere Cash that you think our
listeners should know?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Do you have like a favorite fact too? I'm always
like your number one favorite fact.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
That My number one favorite fact is that they lose
about five percent of their body weight overnight overnight treadmill,
which as they sleep, their metabolism is so high that
they have to spend almost the full day looking for
food which is when you think about that, that's a
whole other reason why you have to have more than
just two of you. Someone's got to watch for predators
(21:37):
while you're out there trying to eat. And then when
we have a pregnant mother, she obviously eats more. But
then once she gave birth to the pups, you could
really see her appetite pick up.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
And for anyone who's nursed a.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Baby, they know as well, your your calorie intake has
to be even more when you're nursing. Yeah, it's fascinating
that they are obligate cooperative readers because they need someone
to watch the pups because moms metabolism is so high
she actually has to spend the entire day eating in
order to just.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Replace that calorie deficit.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
Wow, So she's only down in the tunnel with the
pups to nurse them, and then the rest of her
day is just looking for food, looking for food, and
someone else is in the den with the pups, usually
another female.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
You use a really fancy term. No, don't be sorry.
I love it because that allows us to talk about
it and educate people. Obligate cooperative breeder.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, cooperative what you've.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Described is that the matriarch has the pups, she nurses,
but everyone else kind of babysits for her washy feet.
What does obligate cooperative breeder? Mean? Is that just basically
defining what we've already kind of talked.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
About, or kind of it's saying.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
You know, Meerkats are always thought to be these altruistic
animals where they work together for the better of the mob,
and that's what we say so often, But the reality
of it is they're probably less altruistic than we think.
They're probably require that many hands to make the work lighter,
so to speak, and if they didn't have those other individuals,
they probably wouldn't be able to reproduce successfully. So they
(23:03):
are obligate in the sense that they have to have
others in order to successfully give birth and raise the
birth to adulthood.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So they're obligated to act cooperatively so they can breed
and therefore carry their genetics on. Yes, that's awesome. Yeah,
that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Thank you for the same.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I'm piece it together because I think a lot of
times in our world, we know these scientific terms and
we know what we're talking about when it comes to
social behaviors, and we use these terms without realizing some people,
especially those on the other side of the camera or
listening to our podcast, need a little more frameing out
of what that means. And then it makes sense, you know.
And that's the beauty of this podcast and what we
get to do. We get to talk to specialists like
(23:42):
yourself who know this stuff inside and out. We can
bring it them to those who want to learn this
stuff as well. So thank you so.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Much, so much, thank you for having met time talking
about it.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Thank you know, wonderful way to start season four. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I'm really digging the visual components and we bring up
the and along with these adventures seas, it's going to
be really great.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
And here right, Tim bucktoo in case the guests.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
In the background, it's zoo, right, sorts of.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Animals, all sorts of mammals running around in copletingly our
little kids over here and nearby as well.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
But there's so much happening. But again, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Well, I had no idea, you stress man. That's my
new favorite word of the day.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It was your favorite this morning when we showed up.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
That's such a.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Fun word and so much behind it. Tea, right, I
learned so much this episode.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, and that's what I thought was cool too, is
the fact that you know, reading this article now, having
the opportunity to talk to her. She's so for lack
of a better term, hands in the dirt with the
mirror cast. She knows everything about it, right, and so
it's so cool to be able to have that opportunity
here and kick off season four with this here at
the zoo. Yes, it might be a little ambiance sound,
but I think you're here in Timbuck two at the
zoo is a great spot to maybe do some repisodes.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Oh I love it.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Not only is the auditory experience now with the visual component,
and I'd see all these adventures and bring a mand
along with us along the way.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So I'm super pumped about that. But it makes me think, like, man,
what are that going on? What's next?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Let me actually go back to the end of season
three where we talked to doctor Oliver Ryder about the
Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, right, so we.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Talked him because we're teasing it. This year, twenty twenty
five is the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo. Oh,
so I think we should go back to the Safari Park,
okay and talk to somebody who knows a lot about
the very beginnings of the Frozen Zoo to kind of
kick off the fiftieth anniversary way. I like it.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
We get to go back to the park. I'm all
about there.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You go, Gar, so be sure to subscribing fun in the
next time when we get to find out a little
more about what started and how it all got started
really at the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I'll Marko Went and I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Thanks for listening or watching. For more information about the
San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go
to sd zw a dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a
production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikia Swinton and
Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra Spreen and
(25:56):
Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Rick Schwartz
Marco Wendt
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