December 6, 2024 • 37 mins
Despite its name, the Frozen Zoo does not require a scarf and mittens! This week, hosts Rick and Marco speak with Dr. Oliver Ryder, director of conservation genetics at San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. The Frozen Zoo stores cryogenically frozen genetic materials from mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians, safeguarding them for generations to come. Dr. Ryder has been part of the program since the very beginning, and he tells our hosts about its history and its potential to make a difference for wildlife today and tomorrow. Tune in to hear more about this program that gives hope to the future success of wildlife conservation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
What knows the s world? I'm Marco Wentz.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife. We explore unique stories of wildlife
from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This
podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation organization which
oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Rick.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm still blown away on everything we learned during our
last episode about the oak trees and all the efforts
going into oak tree conservation, especially the work being done
in the lap to generate embryos from non reproductive cells.
I mean, so now we have the opportunity to bank
them in long term storage, just like the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, I'm right there with you, Marco. I had no
idea that, due to the structure of the acorn, oak
trees could not be safely banked like so many other seeds.
I knew we used propagation and created safe populations growing
trees elsewhere, but even those are of wildfire or disease,
even invasive insects. And now the ability to leverage something
like the Frozen Zoo it really adds to the future
(01:07):
of oak tree conservation.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny that we talked
about the Frozen Zoo like, I mean, like everyone knows
about it, right, I mean, but I don't know if
we ever really explained what the Frozen Zoo is and
how it works. I mean, it hasn't been around forever,
but San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance is about to celebrate
the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Oh, that's true. Marco. Twenty twenty five marks the fiftieth
anniversary for the Frozen Zoo, first started by doctor Kirk
Bernershka in nineteen seventy five. And what's really fascinating is
back when the Frozen Zoo was started, although the technology
was there to safely cryogenically freeze cells, the technology being
used today for conservation research didn't even exist yet. Doctor
(01:49):
Bernerska is famously known for having the foresight to start
the Frozen Zoo and gather an impressive team to help
him do it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
I mean, it's kind of like the old saying right
and saving it for a rainy day I mean, or
in other words, put something valuable aside for the future,
right when it really will be needed, and in this case,
something valuable. I mean, it doesn't have to mean money.
It's to save genetics of thousands of individuals, you know,
representing many species of mammals, birds, and reptiles.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah. And with the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo
coming up, I think it's only fair we do an
episode or maybe even two all about the cool stuff
that goes on over there.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh wait, but Rick, I mean this is the last
episode of the season, So are we going to do
multiple episodes?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well? What if we do an episode now about the
frozen Zoo and then do some more episodes next season
about the frozen Zoo.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Ooh, I like the way you think, my friend.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
I mean, does that mean we get to go to
the frozen Zoo like for this episode?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I mean, should grab my coat, oh, my gloves? Oh,
maybe a scarf?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh, very funny, Marco. You know as well as I do.
It's not a zoo that is frozen. The frozen Zoo
is in a building, and in that building is a
room with big insulated stainless steel containers filled with racks
that hold all sorts of little vials of frozen but
still living cells.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
All right, yeah, I know, I know, I mean I
did know that, but I mean a guy can so pretend.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Right, Well, we do have the opportunity to speak with
one of the handful of people that were there when
it all started in nineteen seventy five. If you want
to wear a coat and gloves and scarf inside of
building for this episode, you go right ahead, my friend.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Oh wait, wait, wait, so we're going to go to
the frozen So you're like, like, right now, right now, yes.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
We are.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I am Oliver Writer, the director of Conservation Genetics.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Doctor Writer, thank you so much for joining us today.
I do have to ask, though, what exactly does the
title of director of Conservation Genetics meet.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
I've been here a long time and the nature of
my job has changed enormously. When I arrived, I asked
doctor Banershka, what can a molecular biologists do for endangered species?
He said, well, I don't know, but you can figure
it out. And so I've had to look to see
what opportunities exist to use the skills I had as
(04:05):
a molecular biologist, as a geneticist, somebody who was interested
in studying DNA from the first time you heard about it,
to then see how this could help breed endangered species,
how it could help identify units of conservation, how it
could foster the development of successful breeding programs and look
for their long term sustainability. In other words, to reduce
(04:28):
extinction risk over the long term.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Wow, that is such a great way to say it
reduce extinction risk over the long term. Now, I have
to say, over the years, Marco and I have had
several guests on the podcast, both San Diego Zoo Wildlife
Alliance staff and our partners, and we often hear from
people who take care of or look after birds, reptiles,
and mammals. A lot of the conversation around conservation is
(04:51):
making sure we have diversity in the genetics of the
populations of these species. And for many of these species,
some of that diversity is now being found the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah, and doctor Ryder when it comes to looking at
how important genetic diversity is for wildlife conservation, you know,
sometimes here concerns about genetic bottlenecks. I mean, how closely
related certain individuals are, you know, So it's important to
know these things, and that brings us to you, you know,
This is kind of like you're realm, this is your
side of conservation, right.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Well, you're using some good terms, and you know. It
shows how this perception has infiltrated and infused conservation applications,
because when I started, that wasn't a general awareness that
this kind of diversity was important. Then the field of
conservation biology put a spotlight on the fact that that
(05:40):
was part of the resilience, and early studies that showed
when animals were close relatives were bred in zoos, the
mortality of the young was higher. It was called inbreeding depression,
and at first it was scoffed at, oh, that's not
really the problem, but then the data overwhelmingly showed that
you can't ignore those factors, and that created a role
(06:03):
for people to do genetic analysis and to use information
about pedigrees and relatedness to design breeding programs, to do
what you could call computer dating, to care animals so
that you would minimize the inbreeding and maximize the preservation
of the genetic diversity. You see, we have animals that
(06:26):
come from the wild, and those are a very precious resource.
Those represent an opportunity to conserve what was part of nature.
We want to keep it that way, and so the
breeding programs management of animals in human care can be
adjusted to maximize the possibility of preserving the gene pool.
(06:49):
As a term I can use the genetic diversity of species.
You know, it's their future. And what we want to
do is in the early days, you know, we wanted
to lose as little that is possible, because in a
small population you end up losing genetic diversity. It takes
a very large population growth rate, many many offspring from
(07:10):
individuals in order to preserve all the genetic diversity, and
it doesn't really happen in small populations. So the whole
field of small population problems fostered species survival plans for
dozens and dozens of species so that the zoo community
could collectively undertake programs that would provide the greatest possible
(07:34):
opportunity to keep these species around for the future.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And that's no small task. I mean, having been involved
with animal care for many decades, myself and Marco as well,
we're both aware of how much the SSP plays apart
and sometimes where animals are going to be moved from
one zoo to another, you know, just for the need
of the genetic diversity and the breeding program.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah right, I mean it really is amazing. You know,
it's something we talk about all the time, like a
like a computer dating right where it's like everyone's data
is there and we know who's ready to go and
who needs to go where.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I mean, it really is a big important piece of
the puzzle.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I completely agree, it's so important. But doctor writer,
I want to go back a little bit just for
a second here. You had mentioned early days, starting early
with the Frozen Zoo, and as we head towards twenty
twenty five, which is, you know, coming up right on
the corner when this episode comes out, we're looking at
the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo. And we've talked
in bits and pieces on this podcast before about the
Frozen Zoo, and we're going to be doing a lot
(08:30):
more as we get into twenty twenty five, you know,
a couple episodes and everything. But i'd love to hear
from you. What was your experience when this first was
just an idea, when it was just being talked about.
What was that like for you?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Well, Doctor Kurt Bernershka, the founder of the Frozen Zoo,
was the director of research when that position started in
nineteen seventy five. In January and June I joined the
team and doctor Bernershko was a physician positions in the
departments of pathology and pediatrics in the medical school. He
(09:05):
was very interested in reproduction and had a special interest
in the role of chromosomal changes or chromosomal aberrations in
the role of diseases and infertility and other kinds of
genetic problems. So in order to have access to material
to study chromosomes, you need dividing cells, so having a
(09:29):
capacity being able to grow cells in the lab and
then freeze them so that you could thaw them later
and grow them to do more tests, because it was
a very exciting time for new procedures becoming available. So
that was an initial impetus. But he had the, i
think the very creative vision to call it the frozen zoo.
(09:50):
There were other people in medical schools banking cells, but
nobody in a medical school is going to say we
have a frozen zoo. But doctor Bernershka could figure it
out and literally say that he had a frozen zoo.
And so when I joined him, I started to learn
more about the animals in the zoo and learn that
some of them were very rare and declining. And here
(10:13):
was a chance today to get a sample from an
animal that was extremely rare, and the only place you
could get it was from a zoo, maybe even our zoo,
And so it seemed important to save because it was
probably going to be useful in the future, and the
access was right now if we took advantage of the opportunity.
(10:34):
So there was a very palpable kind of atmosphere that
it was possible to take advantage of opportunities we had
that might not play out until farther in the future.
And now that is so manifest. I go by the
frozen Zoo. For decades, I've walked by, and I walk by,
and I think about the cells that are in there.
(10:55):
And this morning I was out visiting an animal that
was created from cells that were banked in the frozen.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Zoo for forty years. Wow.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
And I walked by the frozen Zoo all that time,
and I said that never didn't necessarily occur to me
that later this was going to happen, and we didn't
know that at the time.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's why I would love to ask more about that.
I can't imagine what that must have been like, or
I mean what it's like now. I mean, I came
into this organization twenty four years ago. The Frozen Zoo
was well established. We had already done a lot of
work regarding the genetic studies with the California condors at
the time. The direction we're going now was well established.
And yet it has always felt me that we sort
(11:37):
of continue to move forward with this apparent, sort of
innate knowledge that the scientific process will catch up and
do time. I love how you said it. We had
access to things we may not have access to in
the future, so we could save them, freeze them, and
now those cells and those genetics are so important we
have them. But honestly, in my head right now, knowing
what we know now versus the scientific process could do
(11:59):
back then, was it just an idea or even a
thought that science will catch up to this eventually and
we'll have the materials saved and ready when it does
catch up, or was it something else? What was the
drive to do this? It just fascinates me, but in
a wonderful way.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, it's really wild when you think about it, right,
I mean, I'm in awe of the idea that there
was this attitude that we should preserve these things, even
though we don't know why.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
There was an atmosphere of optimism and a culture of
excitement and potential that we were offered an opportunity to
use our skills as scientists to make a difference for conservation.
That was enormously attractive, and it led us to consistently,
(12:44):
from the first days to the present think about how
we can use the enormous expansion of knowledge about life
in our world and about the working of cells and
the behavior of organisms, their physiology, their ecology, how we
can use this information to be sure that there'll be
(13:07):
these animals in the future. Doctor Britushka talked about that
in a very straightforward way. It's for the animals. We
want to give the animals a future, and we actually
have the extraordinary privilege and opportunity to try to make
that happen.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well, it just blows my mind the fact that he
had that knowledge and foresight to set the frozen zoo
up that way. This is what it's about, right for
the animals and for their future, to give them a
future for conservation successes. I mean, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, it is very fascinating, and honestly it brings me
to today. I can't help but think about all the
work being done today, knowing that maybe in five, ten, fifteen,
or even fifty years there might be more science that
supports this work even further, something we might not even
be able to imagine right now. And for you, doctor Ryder,
as someone coming into this in the beginning, being excited
(13:56):
about the possibilities, experiencing that palatable energy you mentioned, for
you personally, what was it like in the beginning as
samples started getting banked and Frozen Zoo was just getting started.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Well, I was an early career scientist, you know, to
be very truthful, I was concerned about whether I was
going to be a successful scientist. I was trying to,
you know, develop a career. There was a certainly a
very strong emphasis from doctor Bernershka on being productive scientists
and publishing papers, and that was instilled. So I was
(14:29):
very focused on projects and I set myself some goals.
I said, you know, I would really like to be
able to show that we could use some of these
genetic techniques to have beneficial impact on endangered species. And
I was astounded that like three or four years later,
I said, you know, how am I doing on those goals?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I've met them?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Wow, But you know what's the next phase? So there
was always because of the advancements in the field of
genetics and biology, the development of what's now the basis
for the biotechnology industry, the development of methods to understand
the genetic makeup of organisms, their DNA, the sequence of
(15:11):
the DNA of an organism, and how that worked as
a blueprint to unfold making an animal from a single cell.
All life begins or lives its whole existence as a
single cell, and how that develops is still an enormously
wondrous mystery. We've learned a lot about it, but one
(15:32):
of the things that's important for us to know is
that there's much more that we don't know, and if
we are judicious, clever, insightful about what the important things
to try to learn are, especially the things that would
be important to learn that could make a difference for
our ability to see species through genetic bottlenecks, to see
(15:55):
them become resilient, or how we can maximize there is
even if their population numbers are declining, which is happening
to species across the globe. Then we have just an
enormous opportunity to benefit the future.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Oh. I like that if we are judicious, clever, and
insightful about what the important things are that we can learn,
then of course, just like you said it, it's going
to allow us to see these species through these genetic
bottlenecks to get them to become genetically resilient. That's had
such a great way to look at all of this. Yeah,
no doubt.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I mean we've seen the results, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
We're talking about the history of the Frozen Zoo and
how it started, but jumping forward to today, I mean
you were talking about earlier you were going by an
animal that's here at the Safari Park that cells had
been in the Frozen Zoo for like what forty years
or something like that, and now it's a living animal.
Can you expand a little bit more about that? What
animal were you talking about?
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Five or six years ago, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife
Alliance decided to undertake a bold and ambitious effort. Call
it an experiment because you didn't really know if it
was going to work, but it was to use interspecies.
Somatic cell nuclear transfer is the technical term the common
term is crooning. Okay, oh yeah, and it involves taking
(17:14):
the egg of one mammal species, removing its genetic material
under a microscopic surgery, obviously, and then restoring DNA to
that cell by fusing it with a cell from an
adult animal.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Okay, so you have to tell us what elm are
we talking about. Yeah, well, we talked about two species.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Initially, blackfooted ferrets, a small weasel like animal. It was
endemic to North America, went extinct in the wild and
has been saved through captive breeding. But all blackfooted ferrets
today descend from only seven individuals. But in nineteen eighty
six and nineteen eighty nine we froze cells from individual
(17:57):
blackfooted ferrets that had been born in the wild, and
now there's no living ferret that has their ancestry who
So they represented something that's unprecedented. It was like discovering
a new population of animals. And so they have those
individuals we know from sequencing their genome has genetic diversity
(18:20):
that's no longer present in the living population. So Elizabeth
Ann was cloned by using eggs and surrogate gestation. A
surrogate mother who had an embryo transferred to her that
successfully developed and became a living individual that was a
perfectly wondrous blackfooted ferret. Three of those have been made
(18:44):
from only one of the cell lines we have, and
this year one of those three cloned ferrets produced offspring
through a natural mating and has now a surviving son
and daughter from an animal that it's a clone of
an animal that was in the wild in the nineteen
(19:04):
eighties but has no descendants in the living population except
these ones that have just come because we saved cells
for all those years and the technology became available.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
WHOA Okay, So you had said there were seven individuals
and their genetics were responsible for the current population of
just those seven, but now you've added in this new
line of genetics into that population it wasn't represented before.
What does that do for the population's health and strengths.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
It restores genetic diversity, It restores resilience, It expands the
gene pool and a way that the only alternative without
this was it was going to continue to just decline.
So it was really remarkable. And if we can do that,
you know what does it offer for the future. Instead
(19:52):
of SSPs, instead of species survival plans. Instead of small
populations being managed to slow the loss of genetic diversity,
we can manage them so they have their genetic diversity
for as long as we want to maintain it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Yeah, no way, as long as we have the intention,
and this is possible so long as we have collected
and frozen the cells and keep them cold.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
And so that was the reason to get it all
started in nineteen seventy five. That's amazing. That was one reason,
right of course. But what a great through line though,
to start this discussion in nineteen seventy five and getting
it started with an idea of what we should do
to now right, have an example today right here as
to this is the end result, one of many end results.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, I do want to jump in here really quick
and let our listeners know that we don't have a
black footed ferret here at the Safari Park or the
San Diego Zoo. But doctor Ryder, you said earlier you
were walking by someone and an animal who's significant to you,
and the frozen zoo who's the other one that we've
done something similar with.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Notable famous in my memory is a conversation doctor Bernershka,
one of many notable conversations, but one where he said
to me, you know, these horses are pretty interesting. And
he wasn't talking about thoroughbreds or quarter horses. He was
talking about the p Sshavalski's horse, the true wild horse
(21:18):
that he was the first person to show they had
a different number of chromosomes from all domestic horses. Domestic
horses have sixty four chromosomes, whether it's a Shetland pony
or a Clydesdale, but Shivalski's horses have sixty six chromosomes.
So he said these horses were interesting, and as an
aspiring conservation geneticist, and with his encouragement, I took it
(21:40):
to heart to try to use my skills and the
developing understanding of population management for the benefit of Shavalski's horses.
So I became the first SSP coordinator for Sshaevalski's horses,
and I asked all of the institutions in the United
States when they had an animal they were going to
trim its hoofs and which were required a mobilization, or
(22:02):
when they were doing a health exam, or anytime they
had the opportunity to send me some blood samples in
a skin biopsy. So the species that's the most of
in the frozen Zoo is Kivalski's horses.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
And so years later we looked and saw that the
technology exists to clone domestic horses, and we have all
of these Shivalski's horses cells in the Frozen Zoo, and
we know it's a species over its more than one
hundred year history under human care, a species that became
(22:37):
extinct in the wild, that survives because of the breeding
efforts of zoos, but in spite of the best efforts
of zoos and without knowledge of genetic management in the
century ago, a lot of the gene pool has been lost.
But by using analysis of pedigrees, a computer dating approach
(22:57):
and adding information to that, identify which animals would be
most useful for breeding to maintain the genetic diversity. And
now what we could do is we could say, well,
what if it's not just the living animals that we
use to maintain the genetic diversity. What if we use
the ones that might have died maybe decades ago, but
(23:19):
we have their cells. So could we analyze the opportunity
to use cells to say if these animals were alive,
would we want to breed them. When we did that,
through the samples that are in the frozen zoo, one male,
one stallion, Shavovsky's horse stood out far above the others.
He was born in nineteen seventy five in the United Kingdom,
(23:42):
given the name Koporovich Studbook number.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Six one five.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
In nineteen seventy eight, he was transferred to a zoo
in the United States. In nineteen eighty, we got a
skin biopsy and froze it determined that he had sixty
six chromosomes, and his cells sat there for forty years
until we said, this is the one we would like
to have alive. And today I went and saw two
clones that have been made from the cells that were
(24:10):
in that bank all those years.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Wow, Kurt and Ali well, and then are Curt and
all the representatives. Similar to the story the blackfooted ferret,
where this is a genetic line that was no longer
represented prior to their births or is it just a
rare unique line of genetics for this group.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
These clones represent individuals that have genetic diversity that's at
risk of loss or has been lost.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
From the living population.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Wow, Wow, what an impact those who are going to
make huh.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's extremely exciting to watch these stallions grow up. One
is born in twenty twenty and one was born in
twenty twenty three, so they're different ages that they're the
same individual few right, give.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Me the license to call them you know that?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
And it's fascinating to think about what they can accomplish.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
But they have to grow up a.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Little more to become mature and to fulfill their destiny.
But it's a real thrill to watch them growing up.
But if we can do this for these species, if
this was a bold effort to gather data to explore
the potential of this technology, I think we can say
now that it's here, Yes, So how could we use
(25:25):
it more widely? Which species are at risk that we
could help?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah? Yeah, And that leads me to my next question,
where are we going with the future of all this.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
I'm convinced I know that there cells from animals in
the frozen Zoo that would be useful for other species
to restore genetic diversity. Somali wild asses, Arabian orcs, scimitar
horned orcs, and dean bears.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
The list is very large.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Black rhinoceros is we don't have the technology right now
to make clones or to produce animals from those cells.
But the progress in this area has been enormous, and
the potential for this to provide a whole new outlook
on conservation, one that's not trying to maximize the time
(26:19):
before species disappear, but to afford an opportunity to keep
them going indefinitely. Is an entirely new concept. And if
we're right about this, it's a milestone in the history
of life on Earth. This has never been possible before.
So that's a serious thing to think about.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Well, let me ask you then, as a scientist but
also as a fellow human being on this planet experiencing life,
what does it mean to you to be a part
of all this.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It's a little weird.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
It's easy to say, like focus on, like this is
a good task we could do. Let's see if we
can do it. But I say, I've learned enormously from
like going and sitting quietly and looking at Kurt and
Aali and thinking like you're here because of something I did.
Can I really absorb that? And you know it's not
(27:16):
about me, So I want to put that aside. But
it's like what needs to happen is for this potential
to be appreciated and expanded, and that's why now my
major efforts are to foster the development of collections of
living cells that are frozen so that this kind of
(27:39):
work can go on in the future for more species
around the world in an equitable and inclusive way that
benefits all humankind and nature.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Well, that's that's really amazing for him. I mean, that
just makes my heart smile. Yeah, And I can see
as you were sharing with us, you have those quiet
moments with Kurt and Alli and you recognize it. And
again I appreciate you don't want this to be about you,
because it's not. It's the bigger picture. It's team effort, obviously,
but you did have a big part in those two
being here right now. And as you look just at
(28:11):
those two individuals and I think that's on inspiring. But
then you step back and go, what's the impact that
this could potentially have on the future of the population
of these horses, and then take it further, what about
applying this to other species and other populations. It's honestly,
it's phenomenal. I sit here with you right now knowing
that you have been a part of and seen the
(28:32):
beginning stages of the Frozen Zoo, and then you have
also been able to see some of the fruits of
that labor for lack of a better term, But also
then there's more fruit coming, you know, and there's still
so much more stuff in the future that we don't
even know about yet that they'll be able to do
the things that they can do to save these species,
all because of the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Well, thank you, Rick. But if it's phenomenal for you,
you know, what is it for me? Pinch me me?
Is this really happening to me? I mean like when
I was a high school sophomore and heard about DNA
and say, that's what I want to do?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Who could have? How could have?
Speaker 4 (29:11):
You know?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
What was the what imagination?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
You know? It's it's like, what a what a trip? Yeah?
All that? What a trip? Indeed? Right?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
I mean, it's really amazing work and even more amazing
to hear how much it means to you, friend, I
mean to all of us really now, we want to
be respectful of your time, friend, but I also wanted
to ask, you know, before we go, is there anything
else you'd like to share?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Anything?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
We haven't covered yet well.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I hope that the brief thing I said about the
importance of expanding this the recognition for the importance of
I will say, our planet for all life, humans and wildlife,
plants and animals. To incorporate biobanking into the way that
(29:58):
we do word our environment.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Offers us an enormous chance.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
We are a species that is held responsible for the
sixth biggest extinction in the history of the planet, and
yet there's never been a time in the history of
life on Earth when a single species had such ability
to intervene and to change. So we have the opportunity
(30:31):
to decide what we want to do about nature and
empower it make that happen. That's within the realm of
possibility for us, and that is an unprecedented aspect of
life on our planet. So my wish is that we
(30:54):
come as a human community to internalize this, to realize it,
to under stand that our place in nature can be.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
To do this. Oh, I like that very much, And
I don't doubt at all that we have listeners right
now that are in middle school or high school, maybe
even college, or even maybe honest to go back, even
younger in elementary school that are inspired by your words,
because I'm inspired just sitting here across from you. But
(31:24):
what would you share them with these listeners, as younger listeners,
the next generation of scientists that are listening to this
podcast thinking I want to do that too. I want
to be a part of that. What would you offer
them some insight or what would be the next steps
that could take ot the direction that could start going. Now.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Well, the first thing is is when people come to
me with that kind of aspiration, with asking those kinds
of questions, I want to congratulate them and say I
didn't know what I could do. I had a dream
and I followed it. You can do that too, Yes,
follow that dream. Be curious about the things you're interested in.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yes, I love it. Such great advice, doctor Writer. It
has been I feel like saying it's a pleasure is
not a good enough word, but it's all I have.
I know you have a full schedule. I can't thank
you enough for taking the time to speak with us today.
So thank you, thank you very much. Yes, yes, thank you, amigo.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Oh man Rick listening to Doctor Rider to know how
a lot of the.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Frozen zoos started with an idea and a lot of curiosity.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
It just blew me away.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Me too, Marco to hear how it all started and
then now knowing what's happening fifty years later, and gives
me hope that in another five, ten or fifty years,
even more opportunity will exist for conservation science thanks to
the foresight of doctor Bernershka.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Oh I know, and I love how doctor writer had said,
if we are judicious, clever and insightful about what the
important things are, then we can make a big difference,
you know, such a great reminder that we must be
thoughtful in what we do, and we also we got
to be bold, creative and ambitious if we're going to
make a difference.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
I also appreciate how he said multiple times that it's
not just about him, It's not about anyone individual. It's
a team working under the guidance of doctor Bernerska that
started the Frozen Zoo, and it continues to be a
team with that same sort of culture, collaborating then with
other teams around the world exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
And those teams are doing this for the same reasons
that doctor Bernerska started the Frozen Zoo, right, I mean
for the wildlife and to give Wildlife a future.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, yeah, and you got me thinking speaking of the future.
Now that we have had the opportunity to learn a
little about the history of the Frozen Zoo, well maybe
next season we can speak to someone about where the
Frozen Zoo is now and how it's looking forward towards
the future, helping with conservation.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Ooh, I like that, Amigo, and speaking and making plans
for next season.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
I can't believe this is the last episode of season
three right for Amazing Wildlife. Oh man, it's been such
a great year and I want to take a moment
to think. Are many guests and listeners right? I mean
this year we were nominated for two Signal Awards and
we won both awards. Right, We couldn't have done it
without our listener support us and sharing episodes along the way.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yes, I completely agree, Marco. Big thank you too to
all of our guests who took the time out of
their busy schedule allowed us to invade their space, stick
a microphone in their face and ask a bunch of questions.
And of course, like you said, a big thank you
to all of our listeners. Mark and I love that
you not only subscribe to the podcast, but many of
you have been sharing episodes with fellow fans of Flora
(34:22):
and fauna, better known as fellow lovers of wildlife.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah, oh you know what, right though, I'm a little curious,
did you have a favorite episode this season?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Oh? Seriously, Marco, I don't think I could just pick one.
So many cool episodes that involves horticulture this year, which
we hadn't done before, like the carnivorous plants and the
oak trees. Well, and then there was the episodes that
we have to learn about the giant pandas that were
coming to the zoo. Oh and then the kid of
the spiny ad eaters where we learned the babies are
called puggles. And there's this whole behind the scenes collaboration
happening with all sorts of people from all over the
(34:52):
world to safeguard the species. Yeah, so just to one. Okay,
well I'm gonna reverse guard on you. Okay, how about you?
Do you have a favorite?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
You know, I was thinking about it. I had top two,
am all right. The first one is the leadership of
the main Tier, right, Yes, it was so good. It
was so solid, and I love that we're knocking down
some of those gender and arms. So I super appreciate that.
But the one and true one for me, Milky Storks friend,
do you know why during the interview, remember the spring
was coming on all of us. I mean, I love
(35:21):
the unique locations, the passionate people.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Man, just what a blast.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, you're right, and we're so lucky we get to
go throughout the organization and not only talk to these
great people, but then sometimes visit them inside that too.
As much as I would like to also know not
just your favorites, but I want to know our listeners'
favorites too. But we don't really set up for a
poll or or being able to gauge that. But what
we can do we can see which episodes are listened
(35:45):
to the most. So I'd like to challenge our listeners
to take a moment and share their favorite episode with
their friends and family. You can share directly from the
iHeartRadio app or any podcast player wherever you listen to
your podcast. You can email a link or text, or
even post your favorite episode to your social media. We'll
see what episode gets the most attention, and that can
be your way of letting us know your favorite I
(36:08):
like that idea.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I bet everyone's gonna say the Milky Stock episode.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I have a feeling you might have a hand in that.
There's no way to prevent you from doing this more
than once. Okay, So as we signed off for season three,
I want to remind everyone to be sure to subscribe
to Amazing Wildlife so you will be notified when we
kick off season four next year. Marco Lentz and I'm
Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. For more information about the
(36:37):
San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go
to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio.
Our supervising producers are Nikia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and
our sound designers are Sierra Spreing and Matt Russell. For
more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, stop
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
What knows the s world? I'm Marco Wentz.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife. We explore unique stories of wildlife
from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This
podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation organization which
oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Rick.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm still blown away on everything we learned during our
last episode about the oak trees and all the efforts
going into oak tree conservation, especially the work being done
in the lap to generate embryos from non reproductive cells.
I mean, so now we have the opportunity to bank
them in long term storage, just like the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, I'm right there with you, Marco. I had no
idea that, due to the structure of the acorn, oak
trees could not be safely banked like so many other seeds.
I knew we used propagation and created safe populations growing
trees elsewhere, but even those are of wildfire or disease,
even invasive insects. And now the ability to leverage something
like the Frozen Zoo it really adds to the future
(01:07):
of oak tree conservation.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny that we talked
about the Frozen Zoo like, I mean, like everyone knows
about it, right, I mean, but I don't know if
we ever really explained what the Frozen Zoo is and
how it works. I mean, it hasn't been around forever,
but San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance is about to celebrate
the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Oh, that's true. Marco. Twenty twenty five marks the fiftieth
anniversary for the Frozen Zoo, first started by doctor Kirk
Bernershka in nineteen seventy five. And what's really fascinating is
back when the Frozen Zoo was started, although the technology
was there to safely cryogenically freeze cells, the technology being
used today for conservation research didn't even exist yet. Doctor
(01:49):
Bernerska is famously known for having the foresight to start
the Frozen Zoo and gather an impressive team to help
him do it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
I mean, it's kind of like the old saying right
and saving it for a rainy day I mean, or
in other words, put something valuable aside for the future,
right when it really will be needed, and in this case,
something valuable. I mean, it doesn't have to mean money.
It's to save genetics of thousands of individuals, you know,
representing many species of mammals, birds, and reptiles.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah. And with the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo
coming up, I think it's only fair we do an
episode or maybe even two all about the cool stuff
that goes on over there.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh wait, but Rick, I mean this is the last
episode of the season, So are we going to do
multiple episodes?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well? What if we do an episode now about the
frozen Zoo and then do some more episodes next season
about the frozen Zoo.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Ooh, I like the way you think, my friend.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
I mean, does that mean we get to go to
the frozen Zoo like for this episode?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I mean, should grab my coat, oh, my gloves? Oh,
maybe a scarf?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh, very funny, Marco. You know as well as I do.
It's not a zoo that is frozen. The frozen Zoo
is in a building, and in that building is a
room with big insulated stainless steel containers filled with racks
that hold all sorts of little vials of frozen but
still living cells.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
All right, yeah, I know, I know, I mean I
did know that, but I mean a guy can so pretend.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Right, Well, we do have the opportunity to speak with
one of the handful of people that were there when
it all started in nineteen seventy five. If you want
to wear a coat and gloves and scarf inside of
building for this episode, you go right ahead, my friend.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Oh wait, wait, wait, so we're going to go to
the frozen So you're like, like, right now, right now, yes.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
We are.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I am Oliver Writer, the director of Conservation Genetics.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Doctor Writer, thank you so much for joining us today.
I do have to ask, though, what exactly does the
title of director of Conservation Genetics meet.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
I've been here a long time and the nature of
my job has changed enormously. When I arrived, I asked
doctor Banershka, what can a molecular biologists do for endangered species?
He said, well, I don't know, but you can figure
it out. And so I've had to look to see
what opportunities exist to use the skills I had as
(04:05):
a molecular biologist, as a geneticist, somebody who was interested
in studying DNA from the first time you heard about it,
to then see how this could help breed endangered species,
how it could help identify units of conservation, how it
could foster the development of successful breeding programs and look
for their long term sustainability. In other words, to reduce
(04:28):
extinction risk over the long term.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Wow, that is such a great way to say it
reduce extinction risk over the long term. Now, I have
to say, over the years, Marco and I have had
several guests on the podcast, both San Diego Zoo Wildlife
Alliance staff and our partners, and we often hear from
people who take care of or look after birds, reptiles,
and mammals. A lot of the conversation around conservation is
(04:51):
making sure we have diversity in the genetics of the
populations of these species. And for many of these species,
some of that diversity is now being found the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah, and doctor Ryder when it comes to looking at
how important genetic diversity is for wildlife conservation, you know,
sometimes here concerns about genetic bottlenecks. I mean, how closely
related certain individuals are, you know, So it's important to
know these things, and that brings us to you, you know,
This is kind of like you're realm, this is your
side of conservation, right.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Well, you're using some good terms, and you know. It
shows how this perception has infiltrated and infused conservation applications,
because when I started, that wasn't a general awareness that
this kind of diversity was important. Then the field of
conservation biology put a spotlight on the fact that that
(05:40):
was part of the resilience, and early studies that showed
when animals were close relatives were bred in zoos, the
mortality of the young was higher. It was called inbreeding depression,
and at first it was scoffed at, oh, that's not
really the problem, but then the data overwhelmingly showed that
you can't ignore those factors, and that created a role
(06:03):
for people to do genetic analysis and to use information
about pedigrees and relatedness to design breeding programs, to do
what you could call computer dating, to care animals so
that you would minimize the inbreeding and maximize the preservation
of the genetic diversity. You see, we have animals that
(06:26):
come from the wild, and those are a very precious resource.
Those represent an opportunity to conserve what was part of nature.
We want to keep it that way, and so the
breeding programs management of animals in human care can be
adjusted to maximize the possibility of preserving the gene pool.
(06:49):
As a term I can use the genetic diversity of species.
You know, it's their future. And what we want to
do is in the early days, you know, we wanted
to lose as little that is possible, because in a
small population you end up losing genetic diversity. It takes
a very large population growth rate, many many offspring from
(07:10):
individuals in order to preserve all the genetic diversity, and
it doesn't really happen in small populations. So the whole
field of small population problems fostered species survival plans for
dozens and dozens of species so that the zoo community
could collectively undertake programs that would provide the greatest possible
(07:34):
opportunity to keep these species around for the future.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And that's no small task. I mean, having been involved
with animal care for many decades, myself and Marco as well,
we're both aware of how much the SSP plays apart
and sometimes where animals are going to be moved from
one zoo to another, you know, just for the need
of the genetic diversity and the breeding program.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah right, I mean it really is amazing. You know,
it's something we talk about all the time, like a
like a computer dating right where it's like everyone's data
is there and we know who's ready to go and
who needs to go where.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I mean, it really is a big important piece of
the puzzle.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I completely agree, it's so important. But doctor writer,
I want to go back a little bit just for
a second here. You had mentioned early days, starting early
with the Frozen Zoo, and as we head towards twenty
twenty five, which is, you know, coming up right on
the corner when this episode comes out, we're looking at
the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo. And we've talked
in bits and pieces on this podcast before about the
Frozen Zoo, and we're going to be doing a lot
(08:30):
more as we get into twenty twenty five, you know,
a couple episodes and everything. But i'd love to hear
from you. What was your experience when this first was
just an idea, when it was just being talked about.
What was that like for you?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Well, Doctor Kurt Bernershka, the founder of the Frozen Zoo,
was the director of research when that position started in
nineteen seventy five. In January and June I joined the
team and doctor Bernershko was a physician positions in the
departments of pathology and pediatrics in the medical school. He
(09:05):
was very interested in reproduction and had a special interest
in the role of chromosomal changes or chromosomal aberrations in
the role of diseases and infertility and other kinds of
genetic problems. So in order to have access to material
to study chromosomes, you need dividing cells, so having a
(09:29):
capacity being able to grow cells in the lab and
then freeze them so that you could thaw them later
and grow them to do more tests, because it was
a very exciting time for new procedures becoming available. So
that was an initial impetus. But he had the, i
think the very creative vision to call it the frozen zoo.
(09:50):
There were other people in medical schools banking cells, but
nobody in a medical school is going to say we
have a frozen zoo. But doctor Bernershka could figure it
out and literally say that he had a frozen zoo.
And so when I joined him, I started to learn
more about the animals in the zoo and learn that
some of them were very rare and declining. And here
(10:13):
was a chance today to get a sample from an
animal that was extremely rare, and the only place you
could get it was from a zoo, maybe even our zoo,
And so it seemed important to save because it was
probably going to be useful in the future, and the
access was right now if we took advantage of the opportunity.
(10:34):
So there was a very palpable kind of atmosphere that
it was possible to take advantage of opportunities we had
that might not play out until farther in the future.
And now that is so manifest. I go by the
frozen Zoo. For decades, I've walked by, and I walk by,
and I think about the cells that are in there.
(10:55):
And this morning I was out visiting an animal that
was created from cells that were banked in the frozen.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Zoo for forty years. Wow.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
And I walked by the frozen Zoo all that time,
and I said that never didn't necessarily occur to me
that later this was going to happen, and we didn't
know that at the time.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's why I would love to ask more about that.
I can't imagine what that must have been like, or
I mean what it's like now. I mean, I came
into this organization twenty four years ago. The Frozen Zoo
was well established. We had already done a lot of
work regarding the genetic studies with the California condors at
the time. The direction we're going now was well established.
And yet it has always felt me that we sort
(11:37):
of continue to move forward with this apparent, sort of
innate knowledge that the scientific process will catch up and
do time. I love how you said it. We had
access to things we may not have access to in
the future, so we could save them, freeze them, and
now those cells and those genetics are so important we
have them. But honestly, in my head right now, knowing
what we know now versus the scientific process could do
(11:59):
back then, was it just an idea or even a
thought that science will catch up to this eventually and
we'll have the materials saved and ready when it does
catch up, or was it something else? What was the
drive to do this? It just fascinates me, but in
a wonderful way.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, it's really wild when you think about it, right,
I mean, I'm in awe of the idea that there
was this attitude that we should preserve these things, even
though we don't know why.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
There was an atmosphere of optimism and a culture of
excitement and potential that we were offered an opportunity to
use our skills as scientists to make a difference for conservation.
That was enormously attractive, and it led us to consistently,
(12:44):
from the first days to the present think about how
we can use the enormous expansion of knowledge about life
in our world and about the working of cells and
the behavior of organisms, their physiology, their ecology, how we
can use this information to be sure that there'll be
(13:07):
these animals in the future. Doctor Britushka talked about that
in a very straightforward way. It's for the animals. We
want to give the animals a future, and we actually
have the extraordinary privilege and opportunity to try to make
that happen.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well, it just blows my mind the fact that he
had that knowledge and foresight to set the frozen zoo
up that way. This is what it's about, right for
the animals and for their future, to give them a
future for conservation successes. I mean, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, it is very fascinating, and honestly it brings me
to today. I can't help but think about all the
work being done today, knowing that maybe in five, ten, fifteen,
or even fifty years there might be more science that
supports this work even further, something we might not even
be able to imagine right now. And for you, doctor Ryder,
as someone coming into this in the beginning, being excited
(13:56):
about the possibilities, experiencing that palatable energy you mentioned, for
you personally, what was it like in the beginning as
samples started getting banked and Frozen Zoo was just getting started.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Well, I was an early career scientist, you know, to
be very truthful, I was concerned about whether I was
going to be a successful scientist. I was trying to,
you know, develop a career. There was a certainly a
very strong emphasis from doctor Bernershka on being productive scientists
and publishing papers, and that was instilled. So I was
(14:29):
very focused on projects and I set myself some goals.
I said, you know, I would really like to be
able to show that we could use some of these
genetic techniques to have beneficial impact on endangered species. And
I was astounded that like three or four years later,
I said, you know, how am I doing on those goals?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I've met them?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Wow, But you know what's the next phase? So there
was always because of the advancements in the field of
genetics and biology, the development of what's now the basis
for the biotechnology industry, the development of methods to understand
the genetic makeup of organisms, their DNA, the sequence of
(15:11):
the DNA of an organism, and how that worked as
a blueprint to unfold making an animal from a single cell.
All life begins or lives its whole existence as a
single cell, and how that develops is still an enormously
wondrous mystery. We've learned a lot about it, but one
(15:32):
of the things that's important for us to know is
that there's much more that we don't know, and if
we are judicious, clever, insightful about what the important things
to try to learn are, especially the things that would
be important to learn that could make a difference for
our ability to see species through genetic bottlenecks, to see
(15:55):
them become resilient, or how we can maximize there is
even if their population numbers are declining, which is happening
to species across the globe. Then we have just an
enormous opportunity to benefit the future.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Oh. I like that if we are judicious, clever, and
insightful about what the important things are that we can learn,
then of course, just like you said it, it's going
to allow us to see these species through these genetic
bottlenecks to get them to become genetically resilient. That's had
such a great way to look at all of this. Yeah,
no doubt.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I mean we've seen the results, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
We're talking about the history of the Frozen Zoo and
how it started, but jumping forward to today, I mean
you were talking about earlier you were going by an
animal that's here at the Safari Park that cells had
been in the Frozen Zoo for like what forty years
or something like that, and now it's a living animal.
Can you expand a little bit more about that? What
animal were you talking about?
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Five or six years ago, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife
Alliance decided to undertake a bold and ambitious effort. Call
it an experiment because you didn't really know if it
was going to work, but it was to use interspecies.
Somatic cell nuclear transfer is the technical term the common
term is crooning. Okay, oh yeah, and it involves taking
(17:14):
the egg of one mammal species, removing its genetic material
under a microscopic surgery, obviously, and then restoring DNA to
that cell by fusing it with a cell from an
adult animal.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Okay, so you have to tell us what elm are
we talking about. Yeah, well, we talked about two species.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Initially, blackfooted ferrets, a small weasel like animal. It was
endemic to North America, went extinct in the wild and
has been saved through captive breeding. But all blackfooted ferrets
today descend from only seven individuals. But in nineteen eighty
six and nineteen eighty nine we froze cells from individual
(17:57):
blackfooted ferrets that had been born in the wild, and
now there's no living ferret that has their ancestry who
So they represented something that's unprecedented. It was like discovering
a new population of animals. And so they have those
individuals we know from sequencing their genome has genetic diversity
(18:20):
that's no longer present in the living population. So Elizabeth
Ann was cloned by using eggs and surrogate gestation. A
surrogate mother who had an embryo transferred to her that
successfully developed and became a living individual that was a
perfectly wondrous blackfooted ferret. Three of those have been made
(18:44):
from only one of the cell lines we have, and
this year one of those three cloned ferrets produced offspring
through a natural mating and has now a surviving son
and daughter from an animal that it's a clone of
an animal that was in the wild in the nineteen
(19:04):
eighties but has no descendants in the living population except
these ones that have just come because we saved cells
for all those years and the technology became available.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
WHOA Okay, So you had said there were seven individuals
and their genetics were responsible for the current population of
just those seven, but now you've added in this new
line of genetics into that population it wasn't represented before.
What does that do for the population's health and strengths.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
It restores genetic diversity, It restores resilience, It expands the
gene pool and a way that the only alternative without
this was it was going to continue to just decline.
So it was really remarkable. And if we can do that,
you know what does it offer for the future. Instead
(19:52):
of SSPs, instead of species survival plans. Instead of small
populations being managed to slow the loss of genetic diversity,
we can manage them so they have their genetic diversity
for as long as we want to maintain it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Yeah, no way, as long as we have the intention,
and this is possible so long as we have collected
and frozen the cells and keep them cold.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
And so that was the reason to get it all
started in nineteen seventy five. That's amazing. That was one reason,
right of course. But what a great through line though,
to start this discussion in nineteen seventy five and getting
it started with an idea of what we should do
to now right, have an example today right here as
to this is the end result, one of many end results.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, I do want to jump in here really quick
and let our listeners know that we don't have a
black footed ferret here at the Safari Park or the
San Diego Zoo. But doctor Ryder, you said earlier you
were walking by someone and an animal who's significant to you,
and the frozen zoo who's the other one that we've
done something similar with.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Notable famous in my memory is a conversation doctor Bernershka,
one of many notable conversations, but one where he said
to me, you know, these horses are pretty interesting. And
he wasn't talking about thoroughbreds or quarter horses. He was
talking about the p Sshavalski's horse, the true wild horse
(21:18):
that he was the first person to show they had
a different number of chromosomes from all domestic horses. Domestic
horses have sixty four chromosomes, whether it's a Shetland pony
or a Clydesdale, but Shivalski's horses have sixty six chromosomes.
So he said these horses were interesting, and as an
aspiring conservation geneticist, and with his encouragement, I took it
(21:40):
to heart to try to use my skills and the
developing understanding of population management for the benefit of Shavalski's horses.
So I became the first SSP coordinator for Sshaevalski's horses,
and I asked all of the institutions in the United
States when they had an animal they were going to
trim its hoofs and which were required a mobilization, or
(22:02):
when they were doing a health exam, or anytime they
had the opportunity to send me some blood samples in
a skin biopsy. So the species that's the most of
in the frozen Zoo is Kivalski's horses.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
And so years later we looked and saw that the
technology exists to clone domestic horses, and we have all
of these Shivalski's horses cells in the Frozen Zoo, and
we know it's a species over its more than one
hundred year history under human care, a species that became
(22:37):
extinct in the wild, that survives because of the breeding
efforts of zoos, but in spite of the best efforts
of zoos and without knowledge of genetic management in the
century ago, a lot of the gene pool has been lost.
But by using analysis of pedigrees, a computer dating approach
(22:57):
and adding information to that, identify which animals would be
most useful for breeding to maintain the genetic diversity. And
now what we could do is we could say, well,
what if it's not just the living animals that we
use to maintain the genetic diversity. What if we use
the ones that might have died maybe decades ago, but
(23:19):
we have their cells. So could we analyze the opportunity
to use cells to say if these animals were alive,
would we want to breed them. When we did that,
through the samples that are in the frozen zoo, one male,
one stallion, Shavovsky's horse stood out far above the others.
He was born in nineteen seventy five in the United Kingdom,
(23:42):
given the name Koporovich Studbook number.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Six one five.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
In nineteen seventy eight, he was transferred to a zoo
in the United States. In nineteen eighty, we got a
skin biopsy and froze it determined that he had sixty
six chromosomes, and his cells sat there for forty years
until we said, this is the one we would like
to have alive. And today I went and saw two
clones that have been made from the cells that were
(24:10):
in that bank all those years.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Wow, Kurt and Ali well, and then are Curt and
all the representatives. Similar to the story the blackfooted ferret,
where this is a genetic line that was no longer
represented prior to their births or is it just a
rare unique line of genetics for this group.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
These clones represent individuals that have genetic diversity that's at
risk of loss or has been lost.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
From the living population.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Wow, Wow, what an impact those who are going to
make huh.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's extremely exciting to watch these stallions grow up. One
is born in twenty twenty and one was born in
twenty twenty three, so they're different ages that they're the
same individual few right, give.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Me the license to call them you know that?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
And it's fascinating to think about what they can accomplish.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
But they have to grow up a.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Little more to become mature and to fulfill their destiny.
But it's a real thrill to watch them growing up.
But if we can do this for these species, if
this was a bold effort to gather data to explore
the potential of this technology, I think we can say
now that it's here, Yes, So how could we use
(25:25):
it more widely? Which species are at risk that we
could help?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah? Yeah, And that leads me to my next question,
where are we going with the future of all this.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
I'm convinced I know that there cells from animals in
the frozen Zoo that would be useful for other species
to restore genetic diversity. Somali wild asses, Arabian orcs, scimitar
horned orcs, and dean bears.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
The list is very large.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Black rhinoceros is we don't have the technology right now
to make clones or to produce animals from those cells.
But the progress in this area has been enormous, and
the potential for this to provide a whole new outlook
on conservation, one that's not trying to maximize the time
(26:19):
before species disappear, but to afford an opportunity to keep
them going indefinitely. Is an entirely new concept. And if
we're right about this, it's a milestone in the history
of life on Earth. This has never been possible before.
So that's a serious thing to think about.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Well, let me ask you then, as a scientist but
also as a fellow human being on this planet experiencing life,
what does it mean to you to be a part
of all this.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It's a little weird.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
It's easy to say, like focus on, like this is
a good task we could do. Let's see if we
can do it. But I say, I've learned enormously from
like going and sitting quietly and looking at Kurt and
Aali and thinking like you're here because of something I did.
Can I really absorb that? And you know it's not
(27:16):
about me, So I want to put that aside. But
it's like what needs to happen is for this potential
to be appreciated and expanded, and that's why now my
major efforts are to foster the development of collections of
living cells that are frozen so that this kind of
(27:39):
work can go on in the future for more species
around the world in an equitable and inclusive way that
benefits all humankind and nature.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Well, that's that's really amazing for him. I mean, that
just makes my heart smile. Yeah, And I can see
as you were sharing with us, you have those quiet
moments with Kurt and Alli and you recognize it. And
again I appreciate you don't want this to be about you,
because it's not. It's the bigger picture. It's team effort, obviously,
but you did have a big part in those two
being here right now. And as you look just at
(28:11):
those two individuals and I think that's on inspiring. But
then you step back and go, what's the impact that
this could potentially have on the future of the population
of these horses, and then take it further, what about
applying this to other species and other populations. It's honestly,
it's phenomenal. I sit here with you right now knowing
that you have been a part of and seen the
(28:32):
beginning stages of the Frozen Zoo, and then you have
also been able to see some of the fruits of
that labor for lack of a better term, But also
then there's more fruit coming, you know, and there's still
so much more stuff in the future that we don't
even know about yet that they'll be able to do
the things that they can do to save these species,
all because of the Frozen Zoo.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Well, thank you, Rick. But if it's phenomenal for you,
you know, what is it for me? Pinch me me?
Is this really happening to me? I mean like when
I was a high school sophomore and heard about DNA
and say, that's what I want to do?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Who could have? How could have?
Speaker 4 (29:11):
You know?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
What was the what imagination?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
You know? It's it's like, what a what a trip? Yeah?
All that? What a trip? Indeed? Right?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
I mean, it's really amazing work and even more amazing
to hear how much it means to you, friend, I
mean to all of us really now, we want to
be respectful of your time, friend, but I also wanted
to ask, you know, before we go, is there anything
else you'd like to share?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Anything?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
We haven't covered yet well.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I hope that the brief thing I said about the
importance of expanding this the recognition for the importance of
I will say, our planet for all life, humans and wildlife,
plants and animals. To incorporate biobanking into the way that
(29:58):
we do word our environment.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Offers us an enormous chance.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
We are a species that is held responsible for the
sixth biggest extinction in the history of the planet, and
yet there's never been a time in the history of
life on Earth when a single species had such ability
to intervene and to change. So we have the opportunity
(30:31):
to decide what we want to do about nature and
empower it make that happen. That's within the realm of
possibility for us, and that is an unprecedented aspect of
life on our planet. So my wish is that we
(30:54):
come as a human community to internalize this, to realize it,
to under stand that our place in nature can be.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
To do this. Oh, I like that very much, And
I don't doubt at all that we have listeners right
now that are in middle school or high school, maybe
even college, or even maybe honest to go back, even
younger in elementary school that are inspired by your words,
because I'm inspired just sitting here across from you. But
(31:24):
what would you share them with these listeners, as younger listeners,
the next generation of scientists that are listening to this
podcast thinking I want to do that too. I want
to be a part of that. What would you offer
them some insight or what would be the next steps
that could take ot the direction that could start going. Now.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Well, the first thing is is when people come to
me with that kind of aspiration, with asking those kinds
of questions, I want to congratulate them and say I
didn't know what I could do. I had a dream
and I followed it. You can do that too, Yes,
follow that dream. Be curious about the things you're interested in.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yes, I love it. Such great advice, doctor Writer. It
has been I feel like saying it's a pleasure is
not a good enough word, but it's all I have.
I know you have a full schedule. I can't thank
you enough for taking the time to speak with us today.
So thank you, thank you very much. Yes, yes, thank you, amigo.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Oh man Rick listening to Doctor Rider to know how
a lot of the.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Frozen zoos started with an idea and a lot of curiosity.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
It just blew me away.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Me too, Marco to hear how it all started and
then now knowing what's happening fifty years later, and gives
me hope that in another five, ten or fifty years,
even more opportunity will exist for conservation science thanks to
the foresight of doctor Bernershka.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Oh I know, and I love how doctor writer had said,
if we are judicious, clever and insightful about what the
important things are, then we can make a big difference,
you know, such a great reminder that we must be
thoughtful in what we do, and we also we got
to be bold, creative and ambitious if we're going to
make a difference.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
I also appreciate how he said multiple times that it's
not just about him, It's not about anyone individual. It's
a team working under the guidance of doctor Bernerska that
started the Frozen Zoo, and it continues to be a
team with that same sort of culture, collaborating then with
other teams around the world exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
And those teams are doing this for the same reasons
that doctor Bernerska started the Frozen Zoo, right, I mean
for the wildlife and to give Wildlife a future.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, yeah, and you got me thinking speaking of the future.
Now that we have had the opportunity to learn a
little about the history of the Frozen Zoo, well maybe
next season we can speak to someone about where the
Frozen Zoo is now and how it's looking forward towards
the future, helping with conservation.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Ooh, I like that, Amigo, and speaking and making plans
for next season.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
I can't believe this is the last episode of season
three right for Amazing Wildlife. Oh man, it's been such
a great year and I want to take a moment
to think. Are many guests and listeners right? I mean
this year we were nominated for two Signal Awards and
we won both awards. Right, We couldn't have done it
without our listener support us and sharing episodes along the way.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yes, I completely agree, Marco. Big thank you too to
all of our guests who took the time out of
their busy schedule allowed us to invade their space, stick
a microphone in their face and ask a bunch of questions.
And of course, like you said, a big thank you
to all of our listeners. Mark and I love that
you not only subscribe to the podcast, but many of
you have been sharing episodes with fellow fans of Flora
(34:22):
and fauna, better known as fellow lovers of wildlife.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yeah, oh you know what, right though, I'm a little curious,
did you have a favorite episode this season?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Oh? Seriously, Marco, I don't think I could just pick one.
So many cool episodes that involves horticulture this year, which
we hadn't done before, like the carnivorous plants and the
oak trees. Well, and then there was the episodes that
we have to learn about the giant pandas that were
coming to the zoo. Oh and then the kid of
the spiny ad eaters where we learned the babies are
called puggles. And there's this whole behind the scenes collaboration
happening with all sorts of people from all over the
(34:52):
world to safeguard the species. Yeah, so just to one. Okay,
well I'm gonna reverse guard on you. Okay, how about you?
Do you have a favorite?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
You know, I was thinking about it. I had top two,
am all right. The first one is the leadership of
the main Tier, right, Yes, it was so good. It
was so solid, and I love that we're knocking down
some of those gender and arms. So I super appreciate that.
But the one and true one for me, Milky Storks friend,
do you know why during the interview, remember the spring
was coming on all of us. I mean, I love
(35:21):
the unique locations, the passionate people.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Man, just what a blast.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, you're right, and we're so lucky we get to
go throughout the organization and not only talk to these
great people, but then sometimes visit them inside that too.
As much as I would like to also know not
just your favorites, but I want to know our listeners'
favorites too. But we don't really set up for a
poll or or being able to gauge that. But what
we can do we can see which episodes are listened
(35:45):
to the most. So I'd like to challenge our listeners
to take a moment and share their favorite episode with
their friends and family. You can share directly from the
iHeartRadio app or any podcast player wherever you listen to
your podcast. You can email a link or text, or
even post your favorite episode to your social media. We'll
see what episode gets the most attention, and that can
be your way of letting us know your favorite I
(36:08):
like that idea.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I bet everyone's gonna say the Milky Stock episode.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I have a feeling you might have a hand in that.
There's no way to prevent you from doing this more
than once. Okay, So as we signed off for season three,
I want to remind everyone to be sure to subscribe
to Amazing Wildlife so you will be notified when we
kick off season four next year. Marco Lentz and I'm
Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. For more information about the
(36:37):
San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go
to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio.
Our supervising producers are Nikia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and
our sound designers are Sierra Spreing and Matt Russell. For
more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, stop
Hosts And Creators
Rick Schwartz
Marco Wendt
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