June 25, 2025 • 47 mins
Cynthia Erivo sits down with Angie Martinez to share her journey playing Elphaba in the ‘Wicked’ movie alongside Ariana Grande’s Glinda. She also discusses being an Oscar away from achieving an EGOT, shaving her head to play Elphaba, and her recently debuted album, ‘I Forgive You.’ Cynthia shares how she grew up in London, and everything that led up to where she is now in her career as a singer and actress. Plus, Angie asks Cynthia some In Real Life questions to give an in-depth look into Cynthia’s happiness, career, and outlook on love.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't like the email today, but I went I
(00:02):
was going through your I G page and I can
like EMO like three times you I was just like
singing Hammy birthday. I was like, that was like a
sweet moment. It was so sweet. And then your speech
and I think it was the glad lovely and you
had me a little email. It was like, what is
happening to me today? I'm not normally this was sh
(00:24):
doesn't mean so today's guest is highly acclaimed. She has
an Emmy, she has a Grammy, she has a Tony,
she's got an Oscar nomination, and she is remarkable. Cynthia
Rivo was here with us today. Really what all those
(00:46):
things mean to you?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, they're just sort of like wonderful moments to mark
the work that I've sort of come before that that Tony, Emmy,
Grammy thing was. It's so strange to me because when
I came to do the musical, because that's where they've
all come from, I didn't expect that any of that
could even happen with Oh so not intention of No,
(01:09):
the intention was to show up fully on the stage
and do this piece as fully as I possibly could.
And what came from it was what came from it,
you know, And I think that's always really the intention
to just be as fully aware and fully present in
(01:29):
the pieces that I do, and then what comes from
that comes from It's.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Still pretty great. I mean, they were wonderful.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's such a wonderful thing to look back on and
to see how they've been celebrated in that way.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Because the pressure starts to hit though now, because now
the term ego gets thrown around so much. I know,
but I don't. I'm all do it.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
No, I can't allow it to be the thing that
is driving it. I can't allow the word ego or
the oscar to drive the way I work, because if
it did, I think it would take the joy out
of it.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Clearly, you are gifted in many ways. This is why
you have so many awards and things. What is your
relationship with your gift? Like?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You know that for me and I feel like my
gift is exactly that that it's a spiritual thing that
I have been given to do good work. With the
act of singing, the act of being able to perform,
the act of being able to play a character. I
think there are all tools that I've been given in
order to connect. I think that I love what I do,
(02:28):
but I but the way I feel when I'm doing it,
it's just it's a bigger experience than it's even.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Possible to describe, you know what I mean? Yeah, this
is a spiritual Yeah. I think we all have something.
People spend there. Some people miss it for whatever reason,
chasing the wrong thy, whatever circumstances in life. Some people
sometimes I feel, miss it. You seem to found it early.
I didn't find it early. Like how old were you?
What is the moment when you're like, oh I do this?
Is this?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think it was when I was five. My mom
found it first. She found it when I was eighteen months.
She wrote it down that she thought I was going
to be a singer because I was I would hum
when I would eat and make sounds and so she
I think she knew immediately wrote down, I think she
will be a singer. But I sort of knew I
had something. When I was about five, I had a
(03:20):
Nativity play. They asked me to sing silent. I don't
know why. I think it's probably just because I was
I was not a shy kid. But I see a
little five year old, yeah, just like a Shepherd singing
Silent Night, and I remember how it felt, and I
don't know why till this day I remember how it felt.
I just it felt really good that people wanted to listen.
(03:43):
And I remember seeing smiles on people's faces, and that
was the thing that I was chasing after that, the
smile on a person's face when they could hear me,
when they heard me sing. And then at five, you're
not really even I don't even know if you know that.
That's what you're doing with The sounds that you're making
are good. You just know the whatever you sound you've
made has made someone smile. So I just keep doing.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
That's just chasing that. Yeah, how is I mean? I
always I'm fascinated by people who had that passion, that
lack and like a purpose, and then you get so
much notoriety, like I said, and Hme and things like that,
and Wicked was just gigantic, like household name project and
(04:26):
you know, lived in families could sit and watch it.
It's just one of those projects that I feel like
probably shifts the energy does Yeah. Yeah, I wonder how
life has changed for you since that.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's changed exponentially. I had sort of a level of anonymity.
Before there was like did you really well, there was
a level of sort of like people knowing who I
was to a point, but but I could still sort
of wander around without anybody knowing in places and.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Little shape any I'd be fine. Yeah, and that has
gone out. My note, that's gone. Yeah, that has gone
and there's a big adjustment.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
But I still feel like if I allow people to
see who that I'm a person when they do see me,
then it allows for not a boundary, but it makes
people understand, oh, she's just she's human.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Maybe we'll leave for a lot. How do you do that?
What's the trick in that? Just there's no airs and graces.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It's sort of like, you know, I look in people's
eyes when I speak to you, and I yeah, I'm
right there with them, and they go.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Oh human human, it's different. I didn't expect that. Okay, yeah,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So when I do, when I try to again make
sure that I can see them so that means they
can see me, then it's sort of yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
A really good key to communicating on any less, whether
it's like doing what you do, doing what I do.
Even this podcast, when we launched the podcast, we were
going into some like heavy conversations about yeah yeah, And
I would notice that when I would throw people into
a question, it was different than if I were to
let them see me yeah yeah in that moment. Yeah,
(06:02):
you know what I mean when you're talking about grief.
If I share your own, my own experiences, then the
connection with the guest or even with whoever's watching is
a different thing, that's right. I wonder if that travels
beyond what we do, Like I think so, whether you're
a dentist or a doctor or I think so. I
think it's humanity, I guess is what that is.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
You can share how human you are, or what you
love or vulnerability to youranity and a person.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That's what actually creates the connection. Yeah for sure. That
level of fame though, you know, we've seen that eat
people up like it's not a small thing. And I
know it's tricky because if you complain about fame then
it's like yeah, oo care, shut up, you know. But
the reality of living and that is a real thing.
It is.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But I think I'm lucky because it came to me
at this time of my life where I feel like
I'm myself and so that I don't think there's anything
that can shift me off that axis, you know, And
they might be wobbles every so often, but I think
I feel very much like who I am meant to be,
and so I can walk through it every day and
still be that person regardless of what's going on around me.
(07:05):
It's an interesting thing. I keep hearing you seemed to
be like pandling things, and you seem to be quite
you knowed, plidence and grace was like really grounded. And
it's only because I feel I feel very much like
myself and so I don't actually have to be anyone
else when I meet a person.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Still still must have been an amazing journey for very much.
What kind of kid? Were you? Chatty? Really chatty, bossy?
And you were in London. I was in London.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I was not shy at all. I would make friends
very very easy. I wanted everyone to be friends. I
wanted to be friends with everybody. And that's sort of
how I was.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
My mom.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And also my mom never was like, no, don't go there,
don't talk to that person. She was like, okay, just
go and have fun.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
But she's free.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
She's just let me sort of meet people and be
okay with meeting people. She was always there, was watching
from you know, a distance, but letting me sort of
make my own friends and be a ok with going
to meet people and say, oh, can you do you
want to come play with me? I'm going I've got
my adult and I want to play. You can come
with me if you want it, you know, I mean
that that was me. I just she my mom said
(08:11):
one day she we were souting me to a party
or something and I turned, I ran up to hers
and this is my sister and who and was not
my sister at all? This is my sister and even
look like you No, not at all. I just had
decided that this was the person that I was going
to be sister with. Yeah that's how I was all
the time. Yeah that's great.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And then at what point does the career kick in?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Well, aria kicks in, I mean not five, but no
career kicks in maybe twenty two, twenty three. I was
doing backing vocals and singing people when I was about twenty,
But my acting career kicks in when I'm twenty three,
when I leave drama school, and then I can I
start doing my own concerts. Maybe like two or three
(08:54):
years later, and that's that's sort of when it kicks in. Yeah,
around my next tune.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It's all about it. I read somewhere that you at
one point didn't think it.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Was Oh no, I didn't. I think I was about eighteen.
I was just like, I don't think this is happening really. Yeah, Yeah,
I just sort of start I don't know, I don't know,
I don't I just had let it go for some reason.
And I think I was not necessarily surrounded by people
who also wanted the same thing as me, and so
I didn't know which way to turn. I didn't really
(09:25):
know even there was no instruction, but you know, there
was no guidance because my mum is not a performer,
my family aren't performers, and so I didn't really have
a blueprint. I kind of had to figure it out
on my own. And so there's that moment in my
teens where I was just like, I don't know how
this is gonna happen. And I know I want to perform,
(09:46):
and I know I want to sing, but I just
I just don't.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I don't know. Wow. It was after I think it
was only when.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I I met a woman when I was at fifteen,
I did like a Young Actors company and I played
the role of Juliet, and that woman I met again
five years later when I was at the age twenty.
I'd left college university because I just I was not
stimulated by the subject at all, and I knew I
was just sort of phoning it in. So I knew
(10:14):
it wasn't right, and I wanted to search for the
thing that was. And when I I sort of discovered
this Young Access company at a local theater of my
Statford Theater Royal and when I went to start for
the first day, that same woman was teaching it. Wow,
she was the one that was running the program, and
she told me that I should go and train. I
(10:35):
said no to her because I had no idea what
she was even talking about. Nobody had never told me
that you could go and go to drama school and
train in acting. I just didn't even know it was
a choice. And she explained to me that this is
a choice, and you can go to drama school and
then you should train, and I said no because the
place she described was there was no way a black
(10:56):
girl from South London was going to get into the
Royal Academy of DRAMATICA. I was not going to get into.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That sounds so scary, do you know.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I was pet it's apparently not going to happen, and
I'm not applying for it because I'm not going to
get in.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And she threatened me with not being able to do
the Young Actors Company if I didn't apply. And all
I wanted was to be a part of the Young
Actors Company. I didn't see any further than that. And
so I was like, Okay, well, fine, I'll sign up
to the Young Actis Company because I'll sign up to
the school because I want to come to the Young
Acts Company. And she helped me go through the audition
(11:31):
process and I got in, and that sort of like
is that place is some of my formative years where
I had to really learn about who I was because
the ground sort of shakes underneath you when you go
to drama school. It's a sort of a stripping experience
where they take away some of the things that are
(11:51):
that make you who you are. And I had to
sort of really hang on to some of those things
when I like what just like personality, I wanderings like
who I who I was as a as a as
a woman, and who and who I was growing into,
even like I was told once I shouldn't go to
the gym because they didn't want me to get too muscular,
(12:12):
just little things like that, and I was like, but
that's that's just part of my makeup.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I can't do anything about that. And I think.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I was lucky because there were I had a couple
of teachers in that place that really took care of
me and really sort of nurtured who I was. And
one teacher in particular, my drama teacher or acting coach.
She she was the one that said to me that
actually the trope that people seem to put on us,
this sort of strong black woman. They will give you
roles that are that, but actually what you are is
(12:44):
a really good at your vulnerability is the thing that
is your your unlocking key.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
That's where you.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's where you looked at myself And it was the
best advice anyone had ever given to me as an actress,
because it's the thing that I have used in each
of the roles. It's the thing that I seek out
first in the roles before I play them, so they
might come across like they're strong, but actually the internal
is the vulnerability, which is actually what makes them feel
(13:11):
strong because they have a vulnerability on the inside which
they're trying to hide and so much more fun to
watch all that goodness.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, because it's ticking away on the inside. Yeah, what
do you think, like people who are not actors, like
mirror mortals, what are they? What can we learn from
that the acting experience, because there is something like you say,
it sts few away, pasturing or things that we do
(13:43):
to kind of maybe not even be in the moment.
And I would imagine an acting class at that level,
like you say, taps into that. I just wonder, like
how that translates to real life. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think sometimes people think that we're just putting on
a person that we are, that we are becoming a
p and by putting on the clothes and that's that. Yeah,
But actually a lot of internal undoing has to happen.
You have to come to yourself and know yourself. The
best work it comes when you know who you are,
because then you know what of yourself goes into the character,
(14:15):
and it costs you something. Often when you play some
of these roles that you're not just turning up and
being the character. And then you go home and they
leave you. Sometimes they follow you out of the building
to your home and you have to sort of go, no, no, no,
you stay over there.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I will come back to you in the morning.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
There are habits that you take from your character because
you're the one that builds them.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You build these people that you So when you go
home and you say to your partner or your friend
or your family man, but.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Those spot little things that just aren't you. I remember
I was playing a character called Holly Gibney and she
I really loved this character and she still hasn't. I
still have likes a place in my heart for her.
She is neuro divergent, and she would the walk she
had sort of like there was like a it's like
almost like sheally leaned forward to go where she needed
(15:03):
to go. And that sort of stuck with me. It
wouldn't it wouldn't leave. When I someone took a video
of me walking across the set one day and they
were like, that is not you. That is that character.
I've never seen you walk like that before, so this is,
you know, strange. And when I played Harriet, I asked
(15:26):
for Harriet to come in because Harriet's Harriett was real.
She has you know usked, I don't believe our spirits
just disappear.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
So there's you know, will you bring you asked Harriet.
You prayed. I prayed, Yeah, I prayed.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I and I would ask if she would like come
into the space to be with us when we were
when we were doing this piece and when I was
playing her, because it was her story. So I want
for her to know that we're doing it because we
we love and care for the work that she did,
and we want to share who she was as a
human being. But you can't do that, I don't think
(15:57):
without asking for the essence of that person to be.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Did you feel it?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh yeah, yeah. And it was really hard to let
go of her afterwards. That was really hard to let
go hell breakdown. And that was close to the beginning
when I didn't realize that I should probably have some
therapy after something like that. You know, you go deep, Yeah,
I do. I want to find out who these people are.
I want to I don't want them to be the surface,
so that when you look in my eyes you know
(16:21):
that it's it's real, that I'm not pretending.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, do you use that in real life? Like, do
you do you? Because I've had this conversation about people
who we've lost and spirits and then move on and yeah,
I've said this to friends to who've lost loved ones.
I'm like, you know you can still talk to them. Yeah,
well I wonder if that kind of practice also you
use that and really yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
So it's strangely if my my acting coach passed away
a few years ago, and I remember she she was
always watching what I was doing, so she would send
me a couple of text She would send me a
text and be like, I'm very proud of you. This
is really good. I love this work here, this is
good work. And sometimes she would send your gobbling your words,
you're rushing through you have to slow down. And so
the voice plays in my head because there's something I
(17:05):
heard her say, you're garbling your words. You have to
slow down. We want to hear you speak. Don't rush
past the moment. And when I'm being really vulnerable, I'm
really proud of you. This is very very good. This
is very good work. So that voice is in my
head and sometimes when I'm doing roles the voice don't
garble your words is in my head, in her voice.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
That's how people stay yeah, inside of side yeah whatever. Yeah, Yeah,
that's beautiful. That's an important sentiment. Yeah. People who have
lost you can keep yeah, keep people around. Yeah. I
believe that too. Have you lost anyone close to you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I lost my godmother who I loved really, really dearly,
and I didn't get to say goodbye to her, and
it was just really sad because she's one of the
people who I think I got a lot of my
style from.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
She reminds me of got well done then God. I
know she was one of.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Her names for reader Beveridge, and she was just one
of these wonderful, fabulous people who just loved and she
was smoked like a change, and like I see it
clearly she has like she used to wear this, you know,
like a white buttoned down shirts and black slacks, and
she would always have, you know, some jewelry and cropped hair,
and she always had a cigarette in her hands and
(18:19):
just like raspy voice, and she just was one of
the most wonderful people and I always looked forward to
seeing her. And when she passed, I didn't know when
she passed away, and then I was told she passed
away and I didn't get sickod bye. And so that's
something that like I always sort of struggle with a
little bit because I wish I could have seen her,
(18:39):
and I wish she could have seen all of this happening,
because I think she would have gotten a kick out
of it.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
You know. Yeah, well your style is still it's a
very big thing for you.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, yeah, in that space for you for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
What about spirituality? How much of that do you attribute
to this to your success? Oh a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I don't believe that I'm here on my own doing
it completely on my own and by myself. I think
that just to look at the things that have happened
in my life, they're all it's all too big for
me to have done on my own. I think I've
been given the tools, yes to do what I'm doing,
But I think there's I definitely think I'm being taken
care of.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
How do you tap into that, because I think a
lot of people feel that and then sometimes they get
lost from the connection. Yeah, sometimes I think that'll be
your prayers, like, please keep me connected. But sometimes staying
connected is challenging for people.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I think because I am aware of the things that
are happening to me at all times, because I'm very
present in it, and I'm constantly practicing being present.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Tell us the tools? It is actually for me just
a practice. It's just like to notice where I am.
Like today, I'm noticing that I'm here sitting with Angie
Martinez who is wearing a pink iridescence the sweat suit,
and someone over there is a red cap and wearing blue.
And I know that there is this I see this
orange but with this orange of this black berg with
this orange pocket, and there's a bin over there that's white,
(20:05):
and i can see all of the decko. And I've
been looking at these chandeliers in the room with the
dry flowers.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So I'm picking up the You do this all the time,
all the time, every day, every day walking around.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because it means that I lock those
moments into my mind so that I know where I am.
I can I know what the smells are. I can
see that there's the light there. I can I noticed
that this little sitting area has been here, like I
know it's the two holes in that in that that
you would have.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Been a fantastic like a federal agent. This is more
like a private investigator. It should be like he came in,
he had a black jacket on and a you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But what it means is it keeps me really present
and so I can I get to notice the things
that are happening at all times. I get to notice
how it feels moment, and I journal to make sure
that I remember. In the remembering, I can then be
grateful for the things that have happened during the day,
even the things that throw me off my access. This
(21:01):
will teach me something, right, say, that is a.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Thing too, for like if you suffer from anxiety, yeah,
or fear. It's like if a lot of fear and
anxiety comes from worrying about what's in front of you
as a poor obsessing oh yes, what's behind you? Yeah?
But if you can stay in the present, yes, and
breathe in the presence, yeah, that can help you over hump,
especially like if you're in the crisis in rows of
(21:25):
something like that. It's a good tool. I think that's
even like a meditation. I read that one time. It's
like if you can pick five things if you're having
some type of panic attack or anxiety attacks, like pick
a few things in the room, breathe, notice something, close
your eyes, and try to remind yourself what's around you
in the present moment to calm you down. I think
it's a good tool. Yeah, but I can't imagine being
(21:45):
good and disciplined enough to do that every day all
day now.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's an unconscious thing. I just know to do that
in the day, like I notice things, because it gives
me the fascination about what is happening in my life
at that moment, and that keeps me very focused. I
was talking to someone yesterday about you know, we were
talking about tattoos just now, and I think that sometimes
even the process of being tattooed keeps me very present.
(22:11):
It keeps me very human, because there's nothing more human
than experiencing a little bit pain. Yes, you know, and
that's the one thing that we can all sort of
commune on. We know what pain feels like, different for
everyone else, but we all experience it at some point.
Do you have a high tolerance? I have a very
high time. Well, yeah, so you said your back is
done and my back is done. But I don't even
(22:34):
think it's a high tolerance. I think it is an
acknowledgement of it and then knowing that it will change.
Because the pain is there when you're getting tattooed. It
is there. It doesn't go away, and it can be
okay and it can be unbearable. But the noticing of
it means that you acknowledge it and then you can
(22:55):
be okay with it. And so when you then see
you haven't gone to that long it's yet. But it's
also that this has been a practice of mine. You know,
I've been doing it for such a long time that
I can sit for this took seven hours, So I
can sit for seven hours and go, Okay, I'm noticing
because it brings me to myself, it brings you. There's
a humanity in it. Okay, I know what this feels like.
(23:15):
I'm noticing it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
You could talk yourself through anything, that's pretty great.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, well, this is like the internal voice that is
that that helps you to move through things.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, we are both capricorns. I am a January ninth
baby eighth. Right, Yeah, yes, I think there's a cap Yes,
do you tell Okay? Okay, I do. I think some
people are like I don't believe it, But I do.
I do believe it. I do as well. I think
we say what we mean, yes, what we say very much.
So sometimes we can be misinterpreted as like being not
(23:50):
showing emotion or being too stern or something like. But
it's we are very vulnerable. Yes, we are vulnerable and
very emotional. We just show it in different ways. I
told you I just was crying watching your Instagram face.
Different way. That was very email today. Yeah, you know.
But we're also problem solvers.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yes, we absolute problems before we go to the and
you just to number ten, we get. We were like, okay,
so it's we're at a two right now, how do
we avoid getting to a number five? You know? And
if we get to a number ten, everyone should be
out of the space. Yes, leave, we leave, Yes, now,
don't want it a number ten, so we but we
(24:27):
also are aware that us at number ten is not
what anyone wants, so.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Even ourself, we don't even want it.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
So we avoid getting to number ten by by figuring
out what we need to do between one and five.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
By being thoughtful and strategic exactly. See, we get, we
understand each other.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
But we also take care of so many people, we
care about people. We're the ones that go if you
need advice, go and find a Capricorn. They probably will
be able to help you.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
It's amazing advice. Yeah nothing. If you get nothing else
from today, find you at Capricorred some advice. I also
have a thing with that. It was on my bucket list.
I don't know if it's still on the hair. Yes,
I have always been fascinated with people who have not
been afraid to let go of your hair. Oh my godness, Like,
I can't tell you how amazing. I don't know that
(25:11):
I have a very large scalp. I don't know that
it would be cute on me. I'm gonna be honest,
And when I say that, people are like, oh no,
But I envy it so much and I almost dream
of doing it. But I think the freedom that I
imagine comes with it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
But wouldn't that be more valuable to you than what
other people think, Yes, it looks like on you.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yes, it would be more of the fear of what
I think it looks on me.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
But the thing you just expressed was not what you
think it will look like on you, but how freeing feel,
how it would feel.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yes, but to see for your lovely scalp and face.
You could feel good and also look good. But I
had no idea what it would look like until I
did it. You see what I'm saying? Did you? But
do you? Maybe could have guessed No.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I just was like, get it off if it needs
and I what was the thing to get? What was
the progressively cutting my hair shorter and shorter. Since I
was twenty three when I left drama school, I know
I wanted short hair, and I went to the hairdressers
to cut it, and she wouldn't cut the whole thing
and she left me with like some length to play with,
and I was like, I don't I don't want yeah,
I'd hate this cut it off, And bit by bit
(26:15):
I kept going back and getting her to cut it short,
until she was like, I can't cut anymore. I don't
want you. I don't want to do this, and I
grew it naturally and went back. I went to a
barber shop, which is very scary to go to men's
men's men's barber shop on your own, to just be like,
i'd like you to cut this off, please, And so
they were like are you sure? I was like, yes,
I would like you to shave it and give me
(26:35):
a Caesar cut. At least it was very low. And
then I sort of like stayed there.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
For a bit. And then were you by yourself when
you did this? Yes, fearless or fear? Was there fear
or no fear?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Only for walking into a barber shop because I had
never done it before.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
It's lovely. I have two sons, so I love the
barber shop. Yeah. But and then it was delightful, and
so I going.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And then I when I came to New York, my
hair was a little bit longer, and I was playing
with different but again I would be like it would
get to a certain event, I'd be like, just I
need it cut short. And then when we got to Wicked,
my scalp needed to be green because the wig was
you could see my scalp. It was a very good
(27:15):
wig and you could see everything underneath it, and the
scalp needed to be green, and so they needed to
spray my scalp. And the only way this wig would
work was not with hair, but with a with a
bald head. So I say, okay, well, fearless, I guess
shave it off then yeah, And for me, I was
like what gets me closer to this moment, what gets
me closer to this character? And shaving my head was it.
And when I shaved it, I was like, I'm never
(27:37):
going back. Really, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Tell me what that feels like.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
It's the most freeing, most refreshing thing ever. There is
nothing like if it's really hot with someone's cold hand
on the back of your head.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
It is like heaven.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Like heaven when you wake up in the morning and
the only thing you have to do is get ready
and you don't have to touch your head at all.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
With no hair nothing. You don't have to have a
hair person. I shave it myself. I currently just shave
my head myself. Wow. I learned how to do it,
and I was fine. I think about that, and I
think about how much I hate to make Sorry Tom Squad,
I cannot for more than fifty five minutes sit in
the makeup, hair and makeup chair. I want to start
losing my mind. I can't take it. The thought of
(28:24):
just I think about women and how much I mean,
Chris Rock did a whole like documentary about it. But
like how much effort time it takes to emotion energy
goes into hair all the time, and I think, how
wonderful must it be to be free of that.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I think I also loved the idea of people just
seeing me. I can't hide behind anything. Yeah, you have
my eyes, you have my nose, you have my mouth,
this is what I look like. And I think there's
a vulnerability to being like, hey, this is this is it?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Does anybody in your life have reaction to this when
you do it? Like? Do you have?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I think my mum was worried a little bit for
a small time. It's just like a like what if
you get cold? I was like, I'll wear a hat
I get cold.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I saw you, I said, with the little green head.
It was food.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It's like, this is what it is and I but
everyone else is fine. I think they're also used to me,
just sort of doing what is right. Yeah, yeah it's fine.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
You're an artist. Yeah yeah, yeah, you get away. You
can get away with stuff that not everybody could get
away with. Well.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
The thing is, I think it's a rite of passage.
I think everyone should shave their head at one point
in their lives just to feel what it's like to
have nothing to hide behind and to just be like
to accept all of you, your flaws, all of the things.
Whatever your scalp looks like, whatever your face looks like, you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
See it all.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
You know, because hair frames the face, of course it does.
We make it to frame the face, yes, and when
you take it away, your face is the frame. And
I think that's a very vulnerable thing to be able
to do. And I know it some like some people
(30:06):
are like, why doesn't she have hair? She should have hair,
she look she would look better with hair. But it's
also like I don't want it.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I don't want it. Yes, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I don't think I need it, And and I think
I'm okay to think I don't need it. And even
if you think I do need it, that's also okay.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
You have it.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
You know. I love that for you, but I don't
want it for me. And I think there's there is
a way that I moved through my life now because
I don't have hair. That actually, strangely makes me feel
so much more confident in who I am because there's
nothing to hide behind. You just see me, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I love that. I don't I'm not ready, but before
I leave this earth, yeah, I have to do that. Please,
do you have to have that? It has to be eyebrows,
no hair, I mean no hair, Yeah, no, no nothing.
I have no eyebrows. You know. Notice? Yeah I don't.
It looks like a light eyebrow. You have a light eyebrow.
There's nothing there. I have no So will you shave
(31:01):
the eyebrows? Do in this morning? I don't know everybody's
as beautiful with no hair nor eye. I'm gonna be honest.
I have to be honest because I don't know if
this works. I don't know if it if it works,
I don't know if it works for me, But I
want to have that experience at some point in my life. Yeah,
maybe when I'm a little bit older, like less. I
don't know. Yeah, we day when you're just like I
(31:24):
don't care. I'm pretty less. I'm pretty minimally concerned about
what people think. But I don't know that I'm all
the way there. Yeah, only because I don't have a
lot of confidence. And what this is going to do
for what it looks like, I think you're a beautiful
be red, you know what I mean? So I don't.
It won't.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
All it will do is make me look at your
features even more. You have the most beautiful face and
why wouldn't you know? All do is end up looking
into your eyes.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Very tempted, very tempting when you're already okay, But you
do think that everybody else, I think everybody once in
their life, once in their life. What what are what
is something else that everybody should do once in their life?
Something else? Be in love? Yes, at least once in
your life. Yes, be in love. Lose love? Oh, I
(32:06):
think those are the things. Why do you have to
lose love? If you lose love, you know how valuable
it is to have. That's why it doesn't feel good
in the moment. No, it doesn't. Have you ever had
a devastating heartbreak? Yes? Yes? Did anybody warn you how
bad that was going to be?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No? But I'm glad for it, really, And when I
you know, yes, because to lose it means that you
can have it if you don't, and you understand that,
it means something. You know, we can be frivolous with
love when we have it because we don't really understand it.
But when you lose it and you think and to
you in that moment, it really is love. You know
(32:41):
how valuable it is when you have it? Yes, So
if you gain it again.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
You'll be careful with what do you tell yourself in
the moment where you're laying in the bathroom floor, Well,
can you tell it? That's my image? By the way,
when you're heart broken. Yeah, if you're laying on the.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Hotel room on sat on the floor by my bed
and it's desperately sad, you know, you don't think it
will ever pin will ever go away again. You don't
think that your heart will mend, but it does, it does,
and you keep some of those memories, but but you
have to you do eventually just let them go. You
realize that that person wasn't right for you now. They
(33:16):
maybe were right for you when you were with them,
but maybe they weren't meant to be with you in
the now. Yah for what's coming. And often again this
is why I know that there's something watching over. It
was it's right right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
They were right. He was right, he was right, They
was right right. Yeah. Okay, so we have to fall
in love, lose love. Yes, shave our heads, shave head,
shave your head. Yes. What else? What is on your
bucket list? Do you have something you want to do
in real life before before it's over.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I want to play a stadium. I've never sung in
a stadium. I would to sing my music in a stadium.
And I've already given myself the challenge of playing all
the big opera houses in the world. So I want
to be in Tokyo, I want to be in Sydney.
I want to do Carnegie Hall. I want to do
the Royal alber Hall again. I sort of want to
(34:17):
find all those places and sing and sing my music.
I haven't done that yet.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So this album is out now people get to experience
you in this new way. The song Grace on the album,
maybe you could just tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And yeah, we were asked while we was sort of
while the movie was being put together and were starting
to give people Wicked and we were starting to get
on the road and do this press for it to
share the film with a young woman who was terminally ill.
And when they asked us, we said, well, of course, yes,
show her the movie. And when she saw the movie,
(34:51):
she sent a video and it was so sweet. She
was so funny and she was sharing everything she liked
about She's thirteen, and I sent her a video back
to say thank you and thank you for the words
that he was saying. It's very sweet and all that.
And she sent me a video back, and I sent
her something back, and her family said these videos auld
(35:14):
bring her a lot of joy. And so I said, well,
if at any point she wants to speak to me
in real life, I'll FaceTime.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Let's do that. I'll do it in real life.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
And so one day, I'm on the way to the
studio to write a song and I don't know what
I'm going to write about, and I get a call
from her auntie who says that she's awake and we
should talk because she would sleep a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
She was very tired.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
And I found out that that's something that happens towards
the end of your life, and you get very tired,
you sleep a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
And so she.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Was awake in this moment, and I wanted to FaceTime.
So I get to the studio and I put my
bags and I go outside and I say, and I
FaceTime her, and she's awake and we're talking about things,
and she's just very very sweet and a little bit tired,
but there and we speak for like twenty minutes, which
is a big deal because for her to be up
and talking for that amount of time. It's like her
(36:07):
talking for a day, and she's.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Speaking to you as somebody that she probably admires. Yes,
this film. You hadn't ever met her personally. No, she's
a fan of the film. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So now she's speaking to me as me, and we're
having these really beautiful conversations. And it just dawned on
me that I wanted when I put that phone down,
that I wanted to write a song about just like
the goodbyes that come too soon but leave us with
something good, you know, that were meant to take away
(36:37):
with us after someone or something has gone right. And
I felt like that was the perfect way to end
this journey that had been on a musically because it
says something about how we let things go and how
we keep a hold of things. I called it Grace
because that was her name, and I love the sentiment
of grace. To give someone grace, to be given grace, grace,
(37:00):
to share grace, to do something with grace. It's just
a lovely sentiment. And to be able to forgive means
you have grace on your side that you have to
you have to extend grace to forgive someone. And so
it just was the perfect thing to end the album
with her voices.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
On this album.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, and it's what closes the album is from a
video that she sent me and she says simply, I
feel you, I love everything you did, and I love you.
And I just thought it was one of the most
wonderful ways to close this album that everyone listening the
last words they would hear is I love you, because
(37:41):
those are the other very hard words to say, and
I think that those are the words that encourage us
to say the other three words, I forgive you as well,
which is the name of the album. Yeah, yeah, wow,
And she has she's passed it since. Yeah, her family
must love that song. Yeah, yeah, they know. And I
asked for permission and they've been They've been so lovely
and kind, and I hoped that it would bring comfort
(38:04):
to them and that they get to hear have waste
And she's still around, And I kind of imagine that
she would be quite pleased about the fact that she
could still be hanging around and she gets to be
on an album and she have voices still.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
That isn't that funny too, that we were talking about that. Yeah,
people stay with us even after they've they've gone on.
That's so interesting. Yeah, and so in terms of going
back to like things we should do while we're here, Yeah,
you say and be in love and you end with
I love you. But even the album Yeah, I Forgive, Give,
to Forgive is also something that at some point you must,
(38:35):
you must, yeah, seldom and others. Yeah, So what is that?
What is the idea behind that naming the album.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That it's that that we that we because I know
that we find it hard as human beings to extend
forgiveness to anyone, including ourselves, when things go wrong, when
things don't go the way we plan them to, when
we hurt others, when others hurt us. This album is
sort of a story of there's there's love lost and
(39:02):
heartbreak not just from another person but myself breaking another
person's heart. Or there's moments in it where where you
find passion and you find new new relationships and the
way we are when we're in those moments, and then
that moment at the end, which is this fourth section.
It's about looking back on all of it and the
(39:22):
journey of all of it and how you can let
some of the things that you've learned go and you
can hank hold onto the two things, and in doing that,
you are allowing the space for yourself to be forgiven
and to forgive.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And that's that's why I called it that. Yeah, I forgive,
I forgive you, I forgive you. Yeah beautiful. Yeah, now
the world gets to hear it. Yes, you must be
so as exciting or scary or all the things.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yes, it's exciting and it's scary. It's like exciting because
I'm really proud of it. It's scary because it's very personal.
But there's an excitement to be able to share myself
in that way and to be able to step into
my own as a as a musician and as as
an artist.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Oh what an exciting time is about to be for you. Yeah,
it's like a whole new box or door. Yeah, it
gets on lock. Okay, so in real life, okay, I
have in Well, first of all, we usually start the
interview with this, We ask you how happy are you
on a scale of one to ten today? Today I
am a nine and a half. If you want room
(40:22):
to grow, But that's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, you do you normally operate I currently I've been
operating around that space wood for you feel very good
in myself good, I feel really, I feel really good.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
What what could take you down? What?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
What?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
What is the fact what takes you down and what
brings you back up?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
At this moment in time, I don't know what could
take I think really and truly if it's a loss,
a loss of someone would take me down. That's it
has to be as extreme as that.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Wow, because I.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Don't think someone else's stuff can move me from where
I am, because of because of how I operate now,
I think I can acknowledge a person's things or how
people are feeling and be present for them.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
But in myself, I feel really good. What if you
learned in real life about We talked about forgiveness but
love and that everybody should have. But what has been
your biggest lesson about love?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
That love in its best form is not transactional and
it is not conditional. That love is more than the
word love. It is that acceptance of a person fully
of who they are. Yes, and it's an action. It
is also making the space for that person to grow
into who they're meant to be. That actually is real love.
(41:42):
Someone said, you are if you're in relationship, you're essentially
walking each other home. If you find real love, you're
walking each other home. Essentially, you are walking with a
person throughout each other's life and hopefully, if you're meant
to be with each other for as long as you live,
you're walking them to where they're destiny nation might be.
And in doing that, you have to make room for
(42:02):
who they are and the changes that they go through
and who they become and who they become and who
they become and who they become, right, you have to
make room for who they change into. And if if
you're both serving that purpose for the best of that person,
you're creating space to see the best of the person,
(42:24):
then that is what love is meant to be. That's beautiful,
you know, and you won't always see the best of
that person, but the patience has to come in and
to be able to see that, oh, this, this person
needs more room to explore what it is that will
bring them back to themselves. It's the negotiation of making
(42:45):
sure that we're always giving a person space to grow.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Must be really important for somebody like you to artists
and free and you're always kind of be trying to
be present, be the version of yourself that you are today. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
with the wrong partner. Actually it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Impossible, Yeah, it doesn't work because because you don't feel
the freedom you need to just try try things, little things,
you know, I think I want to make my head
blue today, and maybe that person is like, no, no, no, don't
don't do that, it's going to be embarrassing. Or I
think I want to get a new piercing. I want
to get myself in pierce because I think it might
(43:25):
be what I meant to do. No, no, no, that's
really don't do that. That's not really Now now you're
now being your full artist, like exactly now you're diminishing
certain things very much. So we try and make people
the way we want them to be as opposed to Well,
if that does that make you happy? Will it bring
you closer to who you are meant to be? Will
it bring you closer to like the real version of yourself?
(43:48):
Because if that's what it does, I gained something. I
gained something. If I get to see you become even
more of yourself, then you know that I could have
imagined it means more of you.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
We got to check ourselves. Maybe yes, that we're not
also demanding that from our partners. Yeah, you know what
I mean, it's right, folding up, folding, yeah, yeah, trying
to please yeah some because also you try to please
yeah yeah, yeah someone you know what they like. So
then you wind up becoming a different version of yourself.
Which does that serve? And it doesn't sustain. You can't
(44:22):
pretend to be someone else forever. Eventually the person who
you're meant to be is going to show up. And
when that person shows up, and you haven't been that
person this entire time, the person who you are with, like,
I don't know this stranger, I don't know this person,
but that person has always existed. You've just been hiding them. Yes, Oh,
you just gave somebody a bar. Somebody at all needed
(44:44):
to hear that today. Somebody needed that today in real life?
What do you hold people? What do you hope people
receive from the work you do? And that where lands
in the world.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I hope I can't tell people what to receive. I
hope that the bare minimum that they can receive from
this is the fact that there is humanity in this work,
that I am an imperfect human being that simply wants
to share some of her story. What you take from
the story is up to you, but know that it
(45:17):
comes from honesty and vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Do you ever think about your legacy? You play all
these legends, you play all these aritha and yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I don't know if I think about my legacy. Beyond that,
I hope people think I'm a good person, even that
I can't control. You know, what happens after I'm gone
is not my business.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Word.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I can't do anything about that. I can't change it.
I can only do put my footprints in the sand
right now, and whatever people see in it, I hope
they can gain something good from it.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
But I can only hope. I can never know for sure.
Do you have a speech ready if you win that? Asker?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I have no speech ready. I never have a speech
ready for I really don't you.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Peaches are too dead. No.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I Sometimes I've written the speech the night before. Sometimes
I've written because I because I wait, I wait for
the for the for the reason to drop in before
I write the speech. You'll notice that a lot of
the speeches, even if they're an award given to me,
have nothing to do really with me at all. It's
(46:30):
really a reflection of what I want for other people.
Because that's what drops in in the moment.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Okay, I can't make it. See I'm putting it in
the universe for you. Thank you. Then you'll have the time.
Thank you. I know you tried to ignore it, but
there is an egot lingering. It's hovering walking around you. Kindly.
It's like on you. If it doesn't happen this time,
it's going to happen. So it's it's guaranteed universe. Congratulations
on a beautiful, beautiful body. Thank you. It was wonderful
(46:57):
to have you today.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Thank you for having CD in real life and spe
I don't like the email today, but I went I
(00:02):
was going through your I G page and I can
like EMO like three times you I was just like
singing Hammy birthday. I was like, that was like a
sweet moment. It was so sweet. And then your speech
and I think it was the glad lovely and you
had me a little email. It was like, what is
happening to me today? I'm not normally this was sh
(00:24):
doesn't mean so today's guest is highly acclaimed. She has
an Emmy, she has a Grammy, she has a Tony,
she's got an Oscar nomination, and she is remarkable. Cynthia
Rivo was here with us today. Really what all those
(00:46):
things mean to you?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, they're just sort of like wonderful moments to mark
the work that I've sort of come before that that Tony, Emmy,
Grammy thing was. It's so strange to me because when
I came to do the musical, because that's where they've
all come from, I didn't expect that any of that
could even happen with Oh so not intention of No,
(01:09):
the intention was to show up fully on the stage
and do this piece as fully as I possibly could.
And what came from it was what came from it,
you know, And I think that's always really the intention
to just be as fully aware and fully present in
(01:29):
the pieces that I do, and then what comes from
that comes from It's.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Still pretty great. I mean, they were wonderful.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's such a wonderful thing to look back on and
to see how they've been celebrated in that way.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Because the pressure starts to hit though now, because now
the term ego gets thrown around so much. I know,
but I don't. I'm all do it.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
No, I can't allow it to be the thing that
is driving it. I can't allow the word ego or
the oscar to drive the way I work, because if
it did, I think it would take the joy out
of it.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Clearly, you are gifted in many ways. This is why
you have so many awards and things. What is your
relationship with your gift? Like?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You know that for me and I feel like my
gift is exactly that that it's a spiritual thing that
I have been given to do good work. With the
act of singing, the act of being able to perform,
the act of being able to play a character. I
think there are all tools that I've been given in
order to connect. I think that I love what I do,
(02:28):
but I but the way I feel when I'm doing it,
it's just it's a bigger experience than it's even.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Possible to describe, you know what I mean? Yeah, this
is a spiritual Yeah. I think we all have something.
People spend there. Some people miss it for whatever reason,
chasing the wrong thy, whatever circumstances in life. Some people
sometimes I feel, miss it. You seem to found it early.
I didn't find it early. Like how old were you?
What is the moment when you're like, oh I do this?
Is this?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think it was when I was five. My mom
found it first. She found it when I was eighteen months.
She wrote it down that she thought I was going
to be a singer because I was I would hum
when I would eat and make sounds and so she
I think she knew immediately wrote down, I think she
will be a singer. But I sort of knew I
had something. When I was about five, I had a
(03:20):
Nativity play. They asked me to sing silent. I don't
know why. I think it's probably just because I was
I was not a shy kid. But I see a
little five year old, yeah, just like a Shepherd singing
Silent Night, and I remember how it felt, and I
don't know why till this day I remember how it felt.
I just it felt really good that people wanted to listen.
(03:43):
And I remember seeing smiles on people's faces, and that
was the thing that I was chasing after that, the
smile on a person's face when they could hear me,
when they heard me sing. And then at five, you're
not really even I don't even know if you know that.
That's what you're doing with The sounds that you're making
are good. You just know the whatever you sound you've
made has made someone smile. So I just keep doing.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
That's just chasing that. Yeah, how is I mean? I
always I'm fascinated by people who had that passion, that
lack and like a purpose, and then you get so
much notoriety, like I said, and Hme and things like that,
and Wicked was just gigantic, like household name project and
(04:26):
you know, lived in families could sit and watch it.
It's just one of those projects that I feel like
probably shifts the energy does Yeah. Yeah, I wonder how
life has changed for you since that.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's changed exponentially. I had sort of a level of anonymity.
Before there was like did you really well, there was
a level of sort of like people knowing who I
was to a point, but but I could still sort
of wander around without anybody knowing in places and.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Little shape any I'd be fine. Yeah, and that has
gone out. My note, that's gone. Yeah, that has gone
and there's a big adjustment.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
But I still feel like if I allow people to
see who that I'm a person when they do see me,
then it allows for not a boundary, but it makes
people understand, oh, she's just she's human.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Maybe we'll leave for a lot. How do you do that?
What's the trick in that? Just there's no airs and graces.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It's sort of like, you know, I look in people's
eyes when I speak to you, and I yeah, I'm
right there with them, and they go.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Oh human human, it's different. I didn't expect that. Okay, yeah,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So when I do, when I try to again make
sure that I can see them so that means they
can see me, then it's sort of yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
A really good key to communicating on any less, whether
it's like doing what you do, doing what I do.
Even this podcast, when we launched the podcast, we were
going into some like heavy conversations about yeah yeah, And
I would notice that when I would throw people into
a question, it was different than if I were to
let them see me yeah yeah in that moment. Yeah,
(06:02):
you know what I mean when you're talking about grief.
If I share your own, my own experiences, then the
connection with the guest or even with whoever's watching is
a different thing, that's right. I wonder if that travels
beyond what we do, Like I think so, whether you're
a dentist or a doctor or I think so. I
think it's humanity, I guess is what that is.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
You can share how human you are, or what you
love or vulnerability to youranity and a person.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That's what actually creates the connection. Yeah for sure. That
level of fame though, you know, we've seen that eat
people up like it's not a small thing. And I
know it's tricky because if you complain about fame then
it's like yeah, oo care, shut up, you know. But
the reality of living and that is a real thing.
It is.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But I think I'm lucky because it came to me
at this time of my life where I feel like
I'm myself and so that I don't think there's anything
that can shift me off that axis, you know, And
they might be wobbles every so often, but I think
I feel very much like who I am meant to be,
and so I can walk through it every day and
still be that person regardless of what's going on around me.
(07:05):
It's an interesting thing. I keep hearing you seemed to
be like pandling things, and you seem to be quite
you knowed, plidence and grace was like really grounded. And
it's only because I feel I feel very much like
myself and so I don't actually have to be anyone
else when I meet a person.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Still still must have been an amazing journey for very much.
What kind of kid? Were you? Chatty? Really chatty, bossy?
And you were in London. I was in London.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I was not shy at all. I would make friends
very very easy. I wanted everyone to be friends. I
wanted to be friends with everybody. And that's sort of
how I was.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
My mom.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And also my mom never was like, no, don't go there,
don't talk to that person. She was like, okay, just
go and have fun.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
But she's free.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
She's just let me sort of meet people and be
okay with meeting people. She was always there, was watching
from you know, a distance, but letting me sort of
make my own friends and be a ok with going
to meet people and say, oh, can you do you
want to come play with me? I'm going I've got
my adult and I want to play. You can come
with me if you want it, you know, I mean
that that was me. I just she my mom said
(08:11):
one day she we were souting me to a party
or something and I turned, I ran up to hers
and this is my sister and who and was not
my sister at all? This is my sister and even
look like you No, not at all. I just had
decided that this was the person that I was going
to be sister with. Yeah that's how I was all
the time. Yeah that's great.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And then at what point does the career kick in?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Well, aria kicks in, I mean not five, but no
career kicks in maybe twenty two, twenty three. I was
doing backing vocals and singing people when I was about twenty,
But my acting career kicks in when I'm twenty three,
when I leave drama school, and then I can I
start doing my own concerts. Maybe like two or three
(08:54):
years later, and that's that's sort of when it kicks in. Yeah,
around my next tune.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It's all about it. I read somewhere that you at
one point didn't think it.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Was Oh no, I didn't. I think I was about eighteen.
I was just like, I don't think this is happening really. Yeah, Yeah,
I just sort of start I don't know, I don't know,
I don't I just had let it go for some reason.
And I think I was not necessarily surrounded by people
who also wanted the same thing as me, and so
I didn't know which way to turn. I didn't really
(09:25):
know even there was no instruction, but you know, there
was no guidance because my mum is not a performer,
my family aren't performers, and so I didn't really have
a blueprint. I kind of had to figure it out
on my own. And so there's that moment in my
teens where I was just like, I don't know how
this is gonna happen. And I know I want to perform,
(09:46):
and I know I want to sing, but I just
I just don't.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I don't know. Wow. It was after I think it
was only when.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I I met a woman when I was at fifteen,
I did like a Young Actors company and I played
the role of Juliet, and that woman I met again
five years later when I was at the age twenty.
I'd left college university because I just I was not
stimulated by the subject at all, and I knew I
was just sort of phoning it in. So I knew
(10:14):
it wasn't right, and I wanted to search for the
thing that was. And when I I sort of discovered
this Young Access company at a local theater of my
Statford Theater Royal and when I went to start for
the first day, that same woman was teaching it. Wow,
she was the one that was running the program, and
she told me that I should go and train. I
(10:35):
said no to her because I had no idea what
she was even talking about. Nobody had never told me
that you could go and go to drama school and
train in acting. I just didn't even know it was
a choice. And she explained to me that this is
a choice, and you can go to drama school and
then you should train, and I said no because the
place she described was there was no way a black
(10:56):
girl from South London was going to get into the
Royal Academy of DRAMATICA. I was not going to get into.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That sounds so scary, do you know.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I was pet it's apparently not going to happen, and
I'm not applying for it because I'm not going to
get in.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And she threatened me with not being able to do
the Young Actors Company if I didn't apply. And all
I wanted was to be a part of the Young
Actors Company. I didn't see any further than that. And
so I was like, Okay, well, fine, I'll sign up
to the Young Actis Company because I'll sign up to
the school because I want to come to the Young
Acts Company. And she helped me go through the audition
(11:31):
process and I got in, and that sort of like
is that place is some of my formative years where
I had to really learn about who I was because
the ground sort of shakes underneath you when you go
to drama school. It's a sort of a stripping experience
where they take away some of the things that are
(11:51):
that make you who you are. And I had to
sort of really hang on to some of those things
when I like what just like personality, I wanderings like
who I who I was as a as a as
a woman, and who and who I was growing into,
even like I was told once I shouldn't go to
the gym because they didn't want me to get too muscular,
(12:12):
just little things like that, and I was like, but
that's that's just part of my makeup.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I can't do anything about that. And I think.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I was lucky because there were I had a couple
of teachers in that place that really took care of
me and really sort of nurtured who I was. And
one teacher in particular, my drama teacher or acting coach.
She she was the one that said to me that
actually the trope that people seem to put on us,
this sort of strong black woman. They will give you
roles that are that, but actually what you are is
(12:44):
a really good at your vulnerability is the thing that
is your your unlocking key.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
That's where you.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's where you looked at myself And it was the
best advice anyone had ever given to me as an actress,
because it's the thing that I have used in each
of the roles. It's the thing that I seek out
first in the roles before I play them, so they
might come across like they're strong, but actually the internal
is the vulnerability, which is actually what makes them feel
(13:11):
strong because they have a vulnerability on the inside which
they're trying to hide and so much more fun to
watch all that goodness.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, because it's ticking away on the inside. Yeah, what
do you think, like people who are not actors, like
mirror mortals, what are they? What can we learn from
that the acting experience, because there is something like you say,
it sts few away, pasturing or things that we do
(13:43):
to kind of maybe not even be in the moment.
And I would imagine an acting class at that level,
like you say, taps into that. I just wonder, like
how that translates to real life. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think sometimes people think that we're just putting on
a person that we are, that we are becoming a
p and by putting on the clothes and that's that. Yeah,
But actually a lot of internal undoing has to happen.
You have to come to yourself and know yourself. The
best work it comes when you know who you are,
because then you know what of yourself goes into the character,
(14:15):
and it costs you something. Often when you play some
of these roles that you're not just turning up and
being the character. And then you go home and they
leave you. Sometimes they follow you out of the building
to your home and you have to sort of go, no, no, no,
you stay over there.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I will come back to you in the morning.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
There are habits that you take from your character because
you're the one that builds them.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You build these people that you So when you go
home and you say to your partner or your friend
or your family man, but.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Those spot little things that just aren't you. I remember
I was playing a character called Holly Gibney and she
I really loved this character and she still hasn't. I
still have likes a place in my heart for her.
She is neuro divergent, and she would the walk she
had sort of like there was like a it's like
almost like sheally leaned forward to go where she needed
(15:03):
to go. And that sort of stuck with me. It
wouldn't it wouldn't leave. When I someone took a video
of me walking across the set one day and they
were like, that is not you. That is that character.
I've never seen you walk like that before, so this is,
you know, strange. And when I played Harriet, I asked
(15:26):
for Harriet to come in because Harriet's Harriett was real.
She has you know usked, I don't believe our spirits
just disappear.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
So there's you know, will you bring you asked Harriet.
You prayed. I prayed, Yeah, I prayed.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I and I would ask if she would like come
into the space to be with us when we were
when we were doing this piece and when I was
playing her, because it was her story. So I want
for her to know that we're doing it because we
we love and care for the work that she did,
and we want to share who she was as a
human being. But you can't do that, I don't think
(15:57):
without asking for the essence of that person to be.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Did you feel it?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh yeah, yeah. And it was really hard to let
go of her afterwards. That was really hard to let
go hell breakdown. And that was close to the beginning
when I didn't realize that I should probably have some
therapy after something like that. You know, you go deep, Yeah,
I do. I want to find out who these people are.
I want to I don't want them to be the surface,
so that when you look in my eyes you know
(16:21):
that it's it's real, that I'm not pretending.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, do you use that in real life? Like, do
you do you? Because I've had this conversation about people
who we've lost and spirits and then move on and yeah,
I've said this to friends to who've lost loved ones.
I'm like, you know you can still talk to them. Yeah,
well I wonder if that kind of practice also you
use that and really yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
So it's strangely if my my acting coach passed away
a few years ago, and I remember she she was
always watching what I was doing, so she would send
me a couple of text She would send me a
text and be like, I'm very proud of you. This
is really good. I love this work here, this is
good work. And sometimes she would send your gobbling your words,
you're rushing through you have to slow down. And so
the voice plays in my head because there's something I
(17:05):
heard her say, you're garbling your words. You have to
slow down. We want to hear you speak. Don't rush
past the moment. And when I'm being really vulnerable, I'm
really proud of you. This is very very good. This
is very good work. So that voice is in my
head and sometimes when I'm doing roles the voice don't
garble your words is in my head, in her voice.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
That's how people stay yeah, inside of side yeah whatever. Yeah, Yeah,
that's beautiful. That's an important sentiment. Yeah. People who have
lost you can keep yeah, keep people around. Yeah. I
believe that too. Have you lost anyone close to you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I lost my godmother who I loved really, really dearly,
and I didn't get to say goodbye to her, and
it was just really sad because she's one of the
people who I think I got a lot of my
style from.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
She reminds me of got well done then God. I
know she was one of.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Her names for reader Beveridge, and she was just one
of these wonderful, fabulous people who just loved and she
was smoked like a change, and like I see it
clearly she has like she used to wear this, you know,
like a white buttoned down shirts and black slacks, and
she would always have, you know, some jewelry and cropped hair,
and she always had a cigarette in her hands and
(18:19):
just like raspy voice, and she just was one of
the most wonderful people and I always looked forward to
seeing her. And when she passed, I didn't know when
she passed away, and then I was told she passed
away and I didn't get sickod bye. And so that's
something that like I always sort of struggle with a
little bit because I wish I could have seen her,
(18:39):
and I wish she could have seen all of this happening,
because I think she would have gotten a kick out
of it.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
You know. Yeah, well your style is still it's a
very big thing for you.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, yeah, in that space for you for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
What about spirituality? How much of that do you attribute
to this to your success? Oh a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I don't believe that I'm here on my own doing
it completely on my own and by myself. I think
that just to look at the things that have happened
in my life, they're all it's all too big for
me to have done on my own. I think I've
been given the tools, yes to do what I'm doing,
But I think there's I definitely think I'm being taken
care of.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
How do you tap into that, because I think a
lot of people feel that and then sometimes they get
lost from the connection. Yeah, sometimes I think that'll be
your prayers, like, please keep me connected. But sometimes staying
connected is challenging for people.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I think because I am aware of the things that
are happening to me at all times, because I'm very
present in it, and I'm constantly practicing being present.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Tell us the tools? It is actually for me just
a practice. It's just like to notice where I am.
Like today, I'm noticing that I'm here sitting with Angie
Martinez who is wearing a pink iridescence the sweat suit,
and someone over there is a red cap and wearing blue.
And I know that there is this I see this
orange but with this orange of this black berg with
this orange pocket, and there's a bin over there that's white,
(20:05):
and i can see all of the decko. And I've
been looking at these chandeliers in the room with the
dry flowers.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So I'm picking up the You do this all the time,
all the time, every day, every day walking around.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because it means that I lock those
moments into my mind so that I know where I am.
I can I know what the smells are. I can
see that there's the light there. I can I noticed
that this little sitting area has been here, like I
know it's the two holes in that in that that
you would have.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Been a fantastic like a federal agent. This is more
like a private investigator. It should be like he came in,
he had a black jacket on and a you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But what it means is it keeps me really present
and so I can I get to notice the things
that are happening at all times. I get to notice
how it feels moment, and I journal to make sure
that I remember. In the remembering, I can then be
grateful for the things that have happened during the day,
even the things that throw me off my access. This
(21:01):
will teach me something, right, say, that is a.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Thing too, for like if you suffer from anxiety, yeah,
or fear. It's like if a lot of fear and
anxiety comes from worrying about what's in front of you
as a poor obsessing oh yes, what's behind you? Yeah?
But if you can stay in the present, yes, and
breathe in the presence, yeah, that can help you over hump,
especially like if you're in the crisis in rows of
(21:25):
something like that. It's a good tool. I think that's
even like a meditation. I read that one time. It's
like if you can pick five things if you're having
some type of panic attack or anxiety attacks, like pick
a few things in the room, breathe, notice something, close
your eyes, and try to remind yourself what's around you
in the present moment to calm you down. I think
it's a good tool. Yeah, but I can't imagine being
(21:45):
good and disciplined enough to do that every day all
day now.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's an unconscious thing. I just know to do that
in the day, like I notice things, because it gives
me the fascination about what is happening in my life
at that moment, and that keeps me very focused. I
was talking to someone yesterday about you know, we were
talking about tattoos just now, and I think that sometimes
even the process of being tattooed keeps me very present.
(22:11):
It keeps me very human, because there's nothing more human
than experiencing a little bit pain. Yes, you know, and
that's the one thing that we can all sort of
commune on. We know what pain feels like, different for
everyone else, but we all experience it at some point.
Do you have a high tolerance? I have a very
high time. Well, yeah, so you said your back is
done and my back is done. But I don't even
(22:34):
think it's a high tolerance. I think it is an
acknowledgement of it and then knowing that it will change.
Because the pain is there when you're getting tattooed. It
is there. It doesn't go away, and it can be
okay and it can be unbearable. But the noticing of
it means that you acknowledge it and then you can
(22:55):
be okay with it. And so when you then see
you haven't gone to that long it's yet. But it's
also that this has been a practice of mine. You know,
I've been doing it for such a long time that
I can sit for this took seven hours, So I
can sit for seven hours and go, Okay, I'm noticing
because it brings me to myself, it brings you. There's
a humanity in it. Okay, I know what this feels like.
(23:15):
I'm noticing it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
You could talk yourself through anything, that's pretty great.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, well, this is like the internal voice that is
that that helps you to move through things.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, we are both capricorns. I am a January ninth
baby eighth. Right, Yeah, yes, I think there's a cap Yes,
do you tell Okay? Okay, I do. I think some
people are like I don't believe it, But I do.
I do believe it. I do as well. I think
we say what we mean, yes, what we say very much.
So sometimes we can be misinterpreted as like being not
(23:50):
showing emotion or being too stern or something like. But
it's we are very vulnerable. Yes, we are vulnerable and
very emotional. We just show it in different ways. I
told you I just was crying watching your Instagram face.
Different way. That was very email today. Yeah, you know.
But we're also problem solvers.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yes, we absolute problems before we go to the and
you just to number ten, we get. We were like, okay,
so it's we're at a two right now, how do
we avoid getting to a number five? You know? And
if we get to a number ten, everyone should be
out of the space. Yes, leave, we leave, Yes, now,
don't want it a number ten, so we but we
(24:27):
also are aware that us at number ten is not
what anyone wants, so.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Even ourself, we don't even want it.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
So we avoid getting to number ten by by figuring
out what we need to do between one and five.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
By being thoughtful and strategic exactly. See, we get, we
understand each other.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
But we also take care of so many people, we
care about people. We're the ones that go if you
need advice, go and find a Capricorn. They probably will
be able to help you.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
It's amazing advice. Yeah nothing. If you get nothing else
from today, find you at Capricorred some advice. I also
have a thing with that. It was on my bucket list.
I don't know if it's still on the hair. Yes,
I have always been fascinated with people who have not
been afraid to let go of your hair. Oh my godness, Like,
I can't tell you how amazing. I don't know that
(25:11):
I have a very large scalp. I don't know that
it would be cute on me. I'm gonna be honest,
And when I say that, people are like, oh no,
But I envy it so much and I almost dream
of doing it. But I think the freedom that I
imagine comes with it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
But wouldn't that be more valuable to you than what
other people think, Yes, it looks like on you.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yes, it would be more of the fear of what
I think it looks on me.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
But the thing you just expressed was not what you
think it will look like on you, but how freeing feel,
how it would feel.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yes, but to see for your lovely scalp and face.
You could feel good and also look good. But I
had no idea what it would look like until I
did it. You see what I'm saying? Did you? But
do you? Maybe could have guessed No.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I just was like, get it off if it needs
and I what was the thing to get? What was
the progressively cutting my hair shorter and shorter. Since I
was twenty three when I left drama school, I know
I wanted short hair, and I went to the hairdressers
to cut it, and she wouldn't cut the whole thing
and she left me with like some length to play with,
and I was like, I don't I don't want yeah,
I'd hate this cut it off, And bit by bit
(26:15):
I kept going back and getting her to cut it short,
until she was like, I can't cut anymore. I don't
want you. I don't want to do this, and I
grew it naturally and went back. I went to a
barber shop, which is very scary to go to men's
men's men's barber shop on your own, to just be like,
i'd like you to cut this off, please, And so
they were like are you sure? I was like, yes,
I would like you to shave it and give me
(26:35):
a Caesar cut. At least it was very low. And
then I sort of like stayed there.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
For a bit. And then were you by yourself when
you did this? Yes, fearless or fear? Was there fear
or no fear?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Only for walking into a barber shop because I had
never done it before.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
It's lovely. I have two sons, so I love the
barber shop. Yeah. But and then it was delightful, and
so I going.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And then I when I came to New York, my
hair was a little bit longer, and I was playing
with different but again I would be like it would
get to a certain event, I'd be like, just I
need it cut short. And then when we got to Wicked,
my scalp needed to be green because the wig was
you could see my scalp. It was a very good
(27:15):
wig and you could see everything underneath it, and the
scalp needed to be green, and so they needed to
spray my scalp. And the only way this wig would
work was not with hair, but with a with a
bald head. So I say, okay, well, fearless, I guess
shave it off then yeah, And for me, I was
like what gets me closer to this moment, what gets
me closer to this character? And shaving my head was it.
And when I shaved it, I was like, I'm never
(27:37):
going back. Really, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Tell me what that feels like.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
It's the most freeing, most refreshing thing ever. There is
nothing like if it's really hot with someone's cold hand
on the back of your head.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
It is like heaven.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Like heaven when you wake up in the morning and
the only thing you have to do is get ready
and you don't have to touch your head at all.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
With no hair nothing. You don't have to have a
hair person. I shave it myself. I currently just shave
my head myself. Wow. I learned how to do it,
and I was fine. I think about that, and I
think about how much I hate to make Sorry Tom Squad,
I cannot for more than fifty five minutes sit in
the makeup, hair and makeup chair. I want to start
losing my mind. I can't take it. The thought of
(28:24):
just I think about women and how much I mean,
Chris Rock did a whole like documentary about it. But
like how much effort time it takes to emotion energy
goes into hair all the time, and I think, how
wonderful must it be to be free of that.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I think I also loved the idea of people just
seeing me. I can't hide behind anything. Yeah, you have
my eyes, you have my nose, you have my mouth,
this is what I look like. And I think there's
a vulnerability to being like, hey, this is this is it?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Does anybody in your life have reaction to this when
you do it? Like? Do you have?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I think my mum was worried a little bit for
a small time. It's just like a like what if
you get cold? I was like, I'll wear a hat
I get cold.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I saw you, I said, with the little green head.
It was food.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It's like, this is what it is and I but
everyone else is fine. I think they're also used to me,
just sort of doing what is right. Yeah, yeah it's fine.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
You're an artist. Yeah yeah, yeah, you get away. You
can get away with stuff that not everybody could get
away with. Well.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
The thing is, I think it's a rite of passage.
I think everyone should shave their head at one point
in their lives just to feel what it's like to
have nothing to hide behind and to just be like
to accept all of you, your flaws, all of the things.
Whatever your scalp looks like, whatever your face looks like, you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
See it all.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
You know, because hair frames the face, of course it does.
We make it to frame the face, yes, and when
you take it away, your face is the frame. And
I think that's a very vulnerable thing to be able
to do. And I know it some like some people
(30:06):
are like, why doesn't she have hair? She should have hair,
she look she would look better with hair. But it's
also like I don't want it.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I don't want it. Yes, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I don't think I need it, And and I think
I'm okay to think I don't need it. And even
if you think I do need it, that's also okay.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
You have it.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
You know. I love that for you, but I don't
want it for me. And I think there's there is
a way that I moved through my life now because
I don't have hair. That actually, strangely makes me feel
so much more confident in who I am because there's
nothing to hide behind. You just see me, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I love that. I don't I'm not ready, but before
I leave this earth, yeah, I have to do that. Please,
do you have to have that? It has to be eyebrows,
no hair, I mean no hair, Yeah, no, no nothing.
I have no eyebrows. You know. Notice? Yeah I don't.
It looks like a light eyebrow. You have a light eyebrow.
There's nothing there. I have no So will you shave
(31:01):
the eyebrows? Do in this morning? I don't know everybody's
as beautiful with no hair nor eye. I'm gonna be honest.
I have to be honest because I don't know if
this works. I don't know if it if it works,
I don't know if it works for me, But I
want to have that experience at some point in my life. Yeah,
maybe when I'm a little bit older, like less. I
don't know. Yeah, we day when you're just like I
(31:24):
don't care. I'm pretty less. I'm pretty minimally concerned about
what people think. But I don't know that I'm all
the way there. Yeah, only because I don't have a
lot of confidence. And what this is going to do
for what it looks like, I think you're a beautiful
be red, you know what I mean? So I don't.
It won't.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
All it will do is make me look at your
features even more. You have the most beautiful face and
why wouldn't you know? All do is end up looking
into your eyes.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Very tempted, very tempting when you're already okay, But you
do think that everybody else, I think everybody once in
their life, once in their life. What what are what
is something else that everybody should do once in their life?
Something else? Be in love? Yes, at least once in
your life. Yes, be in love. Lose love? Oh, I
(32:06):
think those are the things. Why do you have to
lose love? If you lose love, you know how valuable
it is to have. That's why it doesn't feel good
in the moment. No, it doesn't. Have you ever had
a devastating heartbreak? Yes? Yes? Did anybody warn you how
bad that was going to be?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No? But I'm glad for it, really, And when I
you know, yes, because to lose it means that you
can have it if you don't, and you understand that,
it means something. You know, we can be frivolous with
love when we have it because we don't really understand it.
But when you lose it and you think and to
you in that moment, it really is love. You know
(32:41):
how valuable it is when you have it? Yes, So
if you gain it again.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
You'll be careful with what do you tell yourself in
the moment where you're laying in the bathroom floor, Well,
can you tell it? That's my image? By the way,
when you're heart broken. Yeah, if you're laying on the.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Hotel room on sat on the floor by my bed
and it's desperately sad, you know, you don't think it
will ever pin will ever go away again. You don't
think that your heart will mend, but it does, it does,
and you keep some of those memories, but but you
have to you do eventually just let them go. You
realize that that person wasn't right for you now. They
(33:16):
maybe were right for you when you were with them,
but maybe they weren't meant to be with you in
the now. Yah for what's coming. And often again this
is why I know that there's something watching over. It
was it's right right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
They were right. He was right, he was right, They
was right right. Yeah. Okay, so we have to fall
in love, lose love. Yes, shave our heads, shave head,
shave your head. Yes. What else? What is on your
bucket list? Do you have something you want to do
in real life before before it's over.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I want to play a stadium. I've never sung in
a stadium. I would to sing my music in a stadium.
And I've already given myself the challenge of playing all
the big opera houses in the world. So I want
to be in Tokyo, I want to be in Sydney.
I want to do Carnegie Hall. I want to do
the Royal alber Hall again. I sort of want to
(34:17):
find all those places and sing and sing my music.
I haven't done that yet.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So this album is out now people get to experience
you in this new way. The song Grace on the album,
maybe you could just tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And yeah, we were asked while we was sort of
while the movie was being put together and were starting
to give people Wicked and we were starting to get
on the road and do this press for it to
share the film with a young woman who was terminally ill.
And when they asked us, we said, well, of course, yes,
show her the movie. And when she saw the movie,
(34:51):
she sent a video and it was so sweet. She
was so funny and she was sharing everything she liked
about She's thirteen, and I sent her a video back
to say thank you and thank you for the words
that he was saying. It's very sweet and all that.
And she sent me a video back, and I sent
her something back, and her family said these videos auld
(35:14):
bring her a lot of joy. And so I said, well,
if at any point she wants to speak to me
in real life, I'll FaceTime.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Let's do that. I'll do it in real life.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
And so one day, I'm on the way to the
studio to write a song and I don't know what
I'm going to write about, and I get a call
from her auntie who says that she's awake and we
should talk because she would sleep a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
She was very tired.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
And I found out that that's something that happens towards
the end of your life, and you get very tired,
you sleep a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
And so she.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Was awake in this moment, and I wanted to FaceTime.
So I get to the studio and I put my
bags and I go outside and I say, and I
FaceTime her, and she's awake and we're talking about things,
and she's just very very sweet and a little bit tired,
but there and we speak for like twenty minutes, which
is a big deal because for her to be up
and talking for that amount of time. It's like her
(36:07):
talking for a day, and she's.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Speaking to you as somebody that she probably admires. Yes,
this film. You hadn't ever met her personally. No, she's
a fan of the film. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So now she's speaking to me as me, and we're
having these really beautiful conversations. And it just dawned on
me that I wanted when I put that phone down,
that I wanted to write a song about just like
the goodbyes that come too soon but leave us with
something good, you know, that were meant to take away
(36:37):
with us after someone or something has gone right. And
I felt like that was the perfect way to end
this journey that had been on a musically because it
says something about how we let things go and how
we keep a hold of things. I called it Grace
because that was her name, and I love the sentiment
of grace. To give someone grace, to be given grace, grace,
(37:00):
to share grace, to do something with grace. It's just
a lovely sentiment. And to be able to forgive means
you have grace on your side that you have to
you have to extend grace to forgive someone. And so
it just was the perfect thing to end the album
with her voices.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
On this album.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, and it's what closes the album is from a
video that she sent me and she says simply, I
feel you, I love everything you did, and I love you.
And I just thought it was one of the most
wonderful ways to close this album that everyone listening the
last words they would hear is I love you, because
(37:41):
those are the other very hard words to say, and
I think that those are the words that encourage us
to say the other three words, I forgive you as well,
which is the name of the album. Yeah, yeah, wow,
And she has she's passed it since. Yeah, her family
must love that song. Yeah, yeah, they know. And I
asked for permission and they've been They've been so lovely
and kind, and I hoped that it would bring comfort
(38:04):
to them and that they get to hear have waste
And she's still around, And I kind of imagine that
she would be quite pleased about the fact that she
could still be hanging around and she gets to be
on an album and she have voices still.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
That isn't that funny too, that we were talking about that. Yeah,
people stay with us even after they've they've gone on.
That's so interesting. Yeah, and so in terms of going
back to like things we should do while we're here, Yeah,
you say and be in love and you end with
I love you. But even the album Yeah, I Forgive, Give,
to Forgive is also something that at some point you must,
(38:35):
you must, yeah, seldom and others. Yeah, So what is that?
What is the idea behind that naming the album.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That it's that that we that we because I know
that we find it hard as human beings to extend
forgiveness to anyone, including ourselves, when things go wrong, when
things don't go the way we plan them to, when
we hurt others, when others hurt us. This album is
sort of a story of there's there's love lost and
(39:02):
heartbreak not just from another person but myself breaking another
person's heart. Or there's moments in it where where you
find passion and you find new new relationships and the
way we are when we're in those moments, and then
that moment at the end, which is this fourth section.
It's about looking back on all of it and the
(39:22):
journey of all of it and how you can let
some of the things that you've learned go and you
can hank hold onto the two things, and in doing that,
you are allowing the space for yourself to be forgiven
and to forgive.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And that's that's why I called it that. Yeah, I forgive,
I forgive you, I forgive you. Yeah beautiful. Yeah, now
the world gets to hear it. Yes, you must be
so as exciting or scary or all the things.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yes, it's exciting and it's scary. It's like exciting because
I'm really proud of it. It's scary because it's very personal.
But there's an excitement to be able to share myself
in that way and to be able to step into
my own as a as a musician and as as
an artist.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Oh what an exciting time is about to be for you. Yeah,
it's like a whole new box or door. Yeah, it
gets on lock. Okay, so in real life, okay, I
have in Well, first of all, we usually start the
interview with this, We ask you how happy are you
on a scale of one to ten today? Today I
am a nine and a half. If you want room
(40:22):
to grow, But that's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, you do you normally operate I currently I've been
operating around that space wood for you feel very good
in myself good, I feel really, I feel really good.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
What what could take you down? What?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
What?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
What is the fact what takes you down and what
brings you back up?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
At this moment in time, I don't know what could
take I think really and truly if it's a loss,
a loss of someone would take me down. That's it
has to be as extreme as that.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Wow, because I.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Don't think someone else's stuff can move me from where
I am, because of because of how I operate now,
I think I can acknowledge a person's things or how
people are feeling and be present for them.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
But in myself, I feel really good. What if you
learned in real life about We talked about forgiveness but
love and that everybody should have. But what has been
your biggest lesson about love?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
That love in its best form is not transactional and
it is not conditional. That love is more than the
word love. It is that acceptance of a person fully
of who they are. Yes, and it's an action. It
is also making the space for that person to grow
into who they're meant to be. That actually is real love.
(41:42):
Someone said, you are if you're in relationship, you're essentially
walking each other home. If you find real love, you're
walking each other home. Essentially, you are walking with a
person throughout each other's life and hopefully, if you're meant
to be with each other for as long as you live,
you're walking them to where they're destiny nation might be.
And in doing that, you have to make room for
(42:02):
who they are and the changes that they go through
and who they become and who they become and who
they become and who they become, right, you have to
make room for who they change into. And if if
you're both serving that purpose for the best of that person,
you're creating space to see the best of the person,
(42:24):
then that is what love is meant to be. That's beautiful,
you know, and you won't always see the best of
that person, but the patience has to come in and
to be able to see that, oh, this, this person
needs more room to explore what it is that will
bring them back to themselves. It's the negotiation of making
(42:45):
sure that we're always giving a person space to grow.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Must be really important for somebody like you to artists
and free and you're always kind of be trying to
be present, be the version of yourself that you are today. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
with the wrong partner. Actually it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Impossible, Yeah, it doesn't work because because you don't feel
the freedom you need to just try try things, little things,
you know, I think I want to make my head
blue today, and maybe that person is like, no, no, no, don't
don't do that, it's going to be embarrassing. Or I
think I want to get a new piercing. I want
to get myself in pierce because I think it might
(43:25):
be what I meant to do. No, no, no, that's
really don't do that. That's not really Now now you're
now being your full artist, like exactly now you're diminishing
certain things very much. So we try and make people
the way we want them to be as opposed to Well,
if that does that make you happy? Will it bring
you closer to who you are meant to be? Will
it bring you closer to like the real version of yourself?
(43:48):
Because if that's what it does, I gained something. I
gained something. If I get to see you become even
more of yourself, then you know that I could have
imagined it means more of you.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
We got to check ourselves. Maybe yes, that we're not
also demanding that from our partners. Yeah, you know what
I mean, it's right, folding up, folding, yeah, yeah, trying
to please yeah some because also you try to please
yeah yeah, yeah someone you know what they like. So
then you wind up becoming a different version of yourself.
Which does that serve? And it doesn't sustain. You can't
(44:22):
pretend to be someone else forever. Eventually the person who
you're meant to be is going to show up. And
when that person shows up, and you haven't been that
person this entire time, the person who you are with, like,
I don't know this stranger, I don't know this person,
but that person has always existed. You've just been hiding them. Yes, Oh,
you just gave somebody a bar. Somebody at all needed
(44:44):
to hear that today. Somebody needed that today in real life?
What do you hold people? What do you hope people
receive from the work you do? And that where lands
in the world.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I hope I can't tell people what to receive. I
hope that the bare minimum that they can receive from
this is the fact that there is humanity in this work,
that I am an imperfect human being that simply wants
to share some of her story. What you take from
the story is up to you, but know that it
(45:17):
comes from honesty and vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Do you ever think about your legacy? You play all
these legends, you play all these aritha and yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I don't know if I think about my legacy. Beyond that,
I hope people think I'm a good person, even that
I can't control. You know, what happens after I'm gone
is not my business.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Word.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I can't do anything about that. I can't change it.
I can only do put my footprints in the sand
right now, and whatever people see in it, I hope
they can gain something good from it.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
But I can only hope. I can never know for sure.
Do you have a speech ready if you win that? Asker?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I have no speech ready. I never have a speech
ready for I really don't you.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Peaches are too dead. No.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I Sometimes I've written the speech the night before. Sometimes
I've written because I because I wait, I wait for
the for the for the reason to drop in before
I write the speech. You'll notice that a lot of
the speeches, even if they're an award given to me,
have nothing to do really with me at all. It's
(46:30):
really a reflection of what I want for other people.
Because that's what drops in in the moment.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Okay, I can't make it. See I'm putting it in
the universe for you. Thank you. Then you'll have the time.
Thank you. I know you tried to ignore it, but
there is an egot lingering. It's hovering walking around you. Kindly.
It's like on you. If it doesn't happen this time,
it's going to happen. So it's it's guaranteed universe. Congratulations
on a beautiful, beautiful body. Thank you. It was wonderful
(46:57):
to have you today.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Thank you for having CD in real life and spe
Host
Angie Martinez
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