Kirk Franklin On BET Ultimate Icon Award, Relationship With Music & God

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So four days ago somebody tweeted this. Now there are
words in this that this individual was saying, and I'll
show you the tweet so you know I'm not just
trying to have an opportunity to say the words that
longest say word. Before days ago, this guy said, Kirk Franklin,
make that church look fun. I definitely would have been

(00:20):
involved more if he was my youth pastor. He make
it seem like you can be a church and a
regularly at the same time.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Oh come on, that could bring you to the tear
right now, That right there, that won't bring a tear
out of here? And saw it.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
That right there summarizes what I want my legacy.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Today's guest everyone needs a proper introduction because he is
this year's icon, by the way, the BET Awards one
of them. He is someone whose music has not only
moved us, but it's healed us. He is a true icon,
a storyteller, a spiritual warrior. He has spent decades read
the gospel music, breaking boundaries, opening hearts. This journey has

(01:03):
not been perfect, but that's why we love you. Because
you are real, You are authentic. You live your life
out loud for us to learn from and be inspired
by in such an authentic way. That is why you
are an icon who deserves to be honest.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Frankly, well honor to be here. Oh thank you for
the green apple.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Sometimes you gotta just think about it. Hilarious where it's
the opportunity for me to have a light segment.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, it's also like like you guys know by me
with their apples, right for those who don't know, there
was a full thing with the apples explaining the apples. Well,
it's just funny. Like quite a few years ago, I
just thought of something to be a part of my
storytelling on socials, and I started, uh, it's it's been
a minute where I would have a green apple and

(01:48):
I would talk and try to give a spiritual, negative
encouraging art of something while eating the apple. And I
did it so much that it can became a little thing.
I mean, it's not a bad thing to be connected
to us now, Bato, Yeah, it's healthy, healthy, flick quick queen,
you know what I'm saying, you know, and it's cool
to be able to kind of hold in kind of
you know, it's swaggy. It's swaggy, it's real sober case

(02:12):
you talk while you're holding it. You know what I'm
saying that you can kind of do like that, you know,
kind of yeah, so thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
How do you feel about being an icon? The word icon?
The moments of when people take a moment, because you know,
we all are living our lives and trying to be
on our purpose and hopefully doing things and contributing. But
every now and then we stop for a second and
we say, hey, man, good job, or hey, we appreciate
you every now and then in our careers, if we're
lucky enough, we're blessed enough, then people take a moment

(02:40):
to like, look at your history and honor you. And
what does that feel like for you?

Speaker 1 (02:44):
It is very it's very out of body. It is
nuanced Cole, you know because you know it's I come
from a genre music where you are wired as a
pup to have the mindset and the consciousness of it
ain't about you, you know what I mean? Like, you know,

(03:06):
like you're a vessel for God, and you know you
shouldn't be getting all caught up in in in the
world and things like you know, like I was at
home in the bed when I won my first Grammy.
You didn't go to the Grammys, but I want my
first grades at home. But because a lot of the
older school gospel artists around me were very much anti
anything that looked like anything self celebratory. They were very

(03:31):
much you know, you know, we're supposed to be doing
it for him, if God, it's nothing about us. And
so I wanted to kind of model myself based on
what I thought was Okay, well, if that's what they're doing,
I need to be that way too. And so it's
only been a few years, it's only been maybe a decade,
not close a decade that I've become very comfortable something

(03:52):
after COVID switched for me, what really cowitch it was
leading up to COVID about which it's I think that
when churches were closed, and and if I can be honest,
when religion not not Christianity not not not not the
teachings and the patterns of the life of Jesus, because

(04:15):
see Jesus was ill, you know what I'm saying. Jesus
was dope. Jesus, you know. But but but organized religion
and Western Christianity can be problematic, right, historically be problematic
for black and brown people. But then and and and
so Western Christianity and Jesus, so they're not synonymous. They're
not not at all.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
And so.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Seeing seeing church doors closed and people trying to find
their way and you, you being left on your own
to kind of find your own journey, to find your path,
and it but kind of came like another awakening, like
like another enlightenment. I think that it freed people from religion.
They're from dogma. But I'm still not asking your question.

(04:58):
Question was about this ward.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
And sweitch for you to be like okay to receive
an award and be honest.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, but see, I don't even know if I'm okay
with receiving a ward, not from the religious standpoint. I
just think that man, and it is it is. It
is the weirdest thing because this is my first interview
that I've had about this like this, and then up
here with you says like I gotta do a point
because you're such a legend.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
No you stop it, please, Oh.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
No, you just you you You always showed me love
the street. You stop one of one's. I think that
when you think when that's very Oh no, ma'am, No,
it's it's it's earned. It's that you think of like,
you know, it just makes you wonder, But what do
I do with that? You know, like, what do I like?

(05:49):
I'm not built to go.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
I degree.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, yeah, it's very much amazing. I don't know what
to do with it.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
I can I share a story with you.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
I did.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
I got inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame. When
was that? How many years ago? Is that all around COVID,
because yeah, I actually got the award was during COVID.
But I you know, sometimes you have to like campaign
for those things. I never cared about awards. I hate awards.
I don't want to. I don't want I don't it's
something I don't want it on my humble. It's just
that I got stuff to do. And also like it

(06:23):
just feels weird to me, kind of like. But then
I went to speak out of college and it was kids,
a bunch of kids doing broadcasting, and they had a
wall of the the Radio Hall of Fame and there
was no hardly any people of color and hardly any
women on the wall. But I walked in the class
and there was mad people of color, diverse room. And

(06:45):
when I walk back out, I was like, oh, I
need to be on that wall.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
I get it.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
So it's not for me to be on that wall.
It's actually as representation. It's important for me to be
on that wall. So when I now, if I have
get award or something like that, I kind of look
at it that way, like, this is not just an
award for me to go home and sit in my
house and go great. It's an opportunity for people to
look at you and be like, oh, I could do
that too. If I stay true to myself and I

(07:10):
fight through demons and I'm honest about it, maybe I
could have a moment of celebration too. It's it's just inspiring.
So if you take that energy and put it outside.
Not that I'm trying to preach to you right now,
it's just crazy saying it really is a different way
to at it instead of putting all the weight on you.

(07:31):
I feel about being honored.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, well thank you for understanding.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Totally really truly are an icon. You don't feel like that, no, really, not.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Even I feel like it's I feel like I'm always
a warrior. I always feel like I'm a soldier. I
always feel like I'm a I'm I'm I'm I'm an alien.
I always feel like an idiot. Man, I feel like
it's I feel like an am Way salesman or like
an Avon salesman in twenty twenty five, Ill.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Jesus yay, and a lot of people buy it, you know,
so you know, and I felt that way my whole career.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
But because you know, you know, it's so funny.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah, man, it's because it ain't the sexiest. It's
not the sexiest idea. It's not the sexiest piece of information.
It's not the sexiest bad merture's worst product to be.
You know, you know, we religion has done a lot
of damage. It's done a lot of damage in the country.

(08:34):
There's so many you know, when you I mean when
you when you when you look at white nationalists and
then the white white and white white nationalism, and you
look at some of the movements of evangelical community and politics,
and you see how dirty things can be and.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
How religion in the name of God. And so I'm
here trying to say what everybody like that it ain't
like that, and don't don't don't throw away you don't
throw away stop light's just because there's some bad Please,
stop lights still matter.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Do you feel discouraged.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
I often feel discouraged, but I also have moments where
I am blown away by the unbelievable kyness of God.
You know, I'm fifty five years old. You dig and
you know, and I'm sitting here, come on muscles and
in good skin, and well, you know, there are times
in life, where's hot camera? Where's my carrying flight?

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Doing a biceps?

Speaker 3 (09:29):
You know, there are times I want to go in
that no, no, no, times I want to go in
that direction, and then God brings me.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Sometimes God bis Dawn of the High and he said,
go bad way. That is ridiculous. Yeah, so mad diretchel.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Thanks, it's but there's a line in the in the
new song you talk about when you say, dear God,
you've been quiet.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's at the end you seem quietly.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
You seem quietly.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, yeah, it's so good. That excellent. But I say,
it's so it's so good to know you didn't forget
about us.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
You didn't forget about us. But before you got to that,
something about even you, because you know, we look at
what you're doing. You voted so long, and your legacy,
I assume you're always connected to God and as somebody
I tried to stay connected to God, but sometimes I
feel disconnected. I have to work to get back connected.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
And it is amazing that it's the assumption that I
always do. And I think that it is that that
I've spent my life trying to the book. I've spent
my life trying to deconstruct this puritanism, the ideology that
was birth down colonialism, of this perfect image of the

(10:50):
of the uh stained glass windows of the Holy of Holies. Look, man,
and you know what I'm and I'm and I'm every
day dealing with you know, every day every day, and
I need God because I know my junk. I look

(11:11):
in the mirror and I know the real me and
it makes me so needy of someone bigger than me.
So yeah, I'm you know, I that has been my goal.
It's like, yo, man, we got people really thinking that
we'd be out here just happy all the time, walking
through lilies, button neckd with the little butt naked angel.
You know, you know how they show the butt naked angels? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(11:33):
And why is every angel naked? I just want to
know when we're fan angels. Yeah, something isn't the Bible,
but the the Asil is naked. I mean about that's whole.
That's the whole, the story for another day. Understand, Sorry
for the ADHD knowing.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
People even you know, I have friends of who work
whose work life work is in faith, faith, you know,
and I know they're not perfect.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Nobody's this person. We still have to continue tot and
they can be fatiguing.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
But I imagine also this pressure on yourself, maybe now
that you you're older, you've been you've had some years
in this, but I'd imagine at the beginning when you're
like stop, it's like changing the world and everybody's like
this is gospel, it breaks open to the masses, and
now you're like this figure. Is there a moment where

(12:28):
you feel the pressure to be this perfect person? You know?

Speaker 1 (12:32):
I still do it, you know, like even yeah, like
you know, I had to go to Jamaica last year
and I don't know if you swing up posted about
it and I had some short song and a tank
top and I got ridiculed tank type in the shorts
and it was no, they won't short.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
What do they call those? One of the man the
dand shorts the hoot you daddy, shorts.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Pots your dad. Now I didn't have hootyr Daddy shorts.
So you know, it was just I mean, it was
it was it was just regular look that I had on,
had some some Travis Scott's own and I was doing
a concert. But me having a tank top on, and
you know, it became a problemer and you know those
things can be a little fatiguing.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, you know, but yeah, I imagine, but I would
imagine early to a younger version.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Of you, a younger well you know, as secure and yeah, yeah,
but you know the benefit of the younger Kirk.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
No.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Social media, say, social media gives everybody that microphone.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, so you know social media, social media that you know,
it is always something. It is the necessary capital E
word that you know we all are trying to maneuver
with because it does a lot of good.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Do you think social media is evil?

Speaker 1 (13:54):
I think that humans, some hum humans have the capacity
to possibly be evil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you when
you when you look at genocide, and you look at racism,
and you look at child's abuse, and you look at
a spousal abuse, that's evil. It's evil. U Weaponizing Christianity

(14:19):
is evil. Weaponizing religion, it's evil. So humans, if not
surrendered in not accountable. You know, we have capacities, as
some of us two to be evil, and so it's
not social media that's evil. It's it's the individuals that

(14:40):
hearts are not pure and healed at hole that's surrendered,
that use that as a tool of you.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
I do agree with that. But I think also if
you are not an evil person, but you're looking at
evil stuff all day, that is I think sometimes it
makes people say and do things that they just got
to be mindful.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
I think I agree with you.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think you gotta be mindful because it's very easy
to get something to something that is not your true character.
Sometimes even people I know, I'll see them post something
or comment as man, I'm like, you would never say
this to somebody's fair, You would never. I don't know.
I just think sometimes it brings out bad in people.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
I have a question for you, and it's just a thought.
I don't know, listening to you. If you don't mind
me piggybacking on, no, please, If they're scrolling, if these
are good people that end they're scrolling and they are
intrigued by evil, maybe it does mean that that seed
was already there and these things water it it's because

(15:41):
you and I can't look at certain things and it
doesn't you know, you know, like you know, like like
like like somebody like me, somebody who has a young
man who struggled with being very promiscuous, you know, and
as a young man, you know, maybe struggles, struggles, struggle
with pornography. They're just certain things I just can't you know,
you know, be engaged there. There's just certain things that

(16:03):
I just can't even invite. It's because as much as
I love God, I still living in a broken vessel,
you know, and so I have to be isn't every
everybody's a broken vessel. I'm just the one that yell
at the loudest. I yell at the loudest because you know,
I yell at the loudest, Queen. I yell at the
loudest because I heal as I reveal. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(16:27):
When you go to doctor's office, the first thing is
going to do is today, it's going to tell me
what hurts. So you got to participate in your recover.
You got to participate in the healing. And so I
want to be as whole as possible. So I'm always
yelling about what's broken.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
It's the blowback of like I remember you being honest
about porination and that whole thing, and so you do
that and you reveal to heal, but then not only
is your own healing going on, there's also a wave
of yeah yeah, church fulk yeahminated fo and all that
stuff comes at you.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
And it's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
How do you navigate that?

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Well, it was a very interesting thing is because you know,
when when I got invited on the Open Woods for show,
it was just very interesting that and you know, this
was twenty years ago. Means yeah no no, no, no
means no dad, Yeah, it would have been crazy. Oh
my god. It's that I did accountability with the wife
and a pastor and my whole team, and we we

(17:22):
really see the Oprah Winfrey people got the information from
interviews that I was doing in Christian outlets. See in
Christian outlets for somebody to say that they've gone through
something and they you know, and they see strength and
victory in it. It's a testimony. What I found out
and learned is that mainstream media is not built for testimony.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Oh you're talking to my spirit, My soul right now
is not This is a battle that I struggle with
because when I started this podcast, it was really initially
as a testimony. My first podcast, I had I tell
the soil time, but I had had a really bad accident.
I've lost a lot of family members in the short
period of time, and I just I wanted to share

(18:03):
how to get to the other side of that what
it felt like. I just felt like there was a
connection to be had, and I wanted to tell people's
stories too, for people out there not This wasn't a
money play, you know, this wasn't like but it really was.
But then you get into the business of it and
how clips are received and how social You could have
the greatest intention, somebody can take something that we say

(18:25):
right now, right now, right now, not have the same
test intention and take a testimony and ruin it.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
And that's eg I know.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
So what do we do? We still got to do testimonies,
right we can't.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
We still have to do what we do in the
midst of the reality that we live in an evil world.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
I don't really make it.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Tell me I do what you do, but we do
the same we we that's very we do the same thing.
And again that's just something that I live to deconstruct
is I think, for example, like Angie, I can do
on the plane and there are people and I promise this,
I put this on everything I love. This happens to you.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Boy.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
I can be on the plane and people will get
on the plane and they'll see me and they'll steer
it from me, going.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Oh, we're gonna be safe on this flight. This plane
ain't going down because we got out this plane. When
I'm thinking, what may she ain't.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Christians die in plane crashes.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
You know, people really think you had the direct Yes,
and so when you talk about when you do it's
different than I know.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
It ain't.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
Just because I talk about God don't mean you don't
live for God. And just because I talk about God
don't mean that I'm.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Closer to God than you are.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
It doesn't.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
You've been funny, you know, you've been serious.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
Okay, maybe not in that way, but in a way
where you have worked on your connection with Him in
a way that you could lead people to him.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yes, I believe it. No, no, no, if somebody comes
up here and says to you, Angie, I'm thinking about
killing myself. Oh God, I'm mad at God. And I
don't think that God loves me. Whatever you say to them.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
Is just as loving to God's heart, and he hears
your words as beautiful as if I said the same
thing in them and I pull out a Bible and
did it.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
What would you say to him? I'm just curious.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
First of all, I would hurt with them. I would
tell them I'm so sorry, and I know how it
feels to be mad at God, and I don't know
why God allows painful things happen to good people. And
I want you to know that you being angry at God,
that's your right to If he calls himself your father,
you have every right to go to your father and
tell him that you're pissed off, that you're angry, and

(20:44):
that you're met. If God has God first of all,
here in the punk, he hate weak, if he's a daddy,
He's there to hear even my anglers and my and
my frustrations at him. And if you choose to walk away,
I want you to know that I hate that you
have been that hurt.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
But I do want you to know if you ever
want to come back, there's not a time that you
can't come back, and your anger does not stop God's
love for you.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
You can be angry and you can be hurt, and
I'll pray for you, and I want you know it
does not make you a bad person to be upset
and angry at God. It makes you human.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Have you ever been, I'm sure you have.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
You said that every season of my life has come
with a moment were angry at God. But the problem
is He somehow finds an incredible moment that I'm watered
with love and grace that i can do nothing but
respond and gratitude because He over indexes. Think about it,

(21:44):
how many other fifty five year old mainstream or gospel
or pop artists. But you're going to interview this weekend
fifty five maybe Mariah, maybe Jamie, But who think a
handful if that, a handful of almost sixty young was
gonna come up in it and get the opportunity to
interview with.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
You, I'll stop, don't care, don't just think and still
look like this. Come on, now, come on now, mister Franklin,
there's a petty in my hand.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
I'm going to write.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I'm going to write I love it.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
I'm going to write I'm going to right with that
big gospel shurious.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
That's so good. How much do you think There's so
many places I want to go and talk about today.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Career, you can do it all, but I've been waiting
to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
That makes me so happy. It really doesn't really make
you happy.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
She don't know, she don't know.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
No, I don't. I don't. I don't take that for granted. No,
you don't listen, who sit in that chair? Just come
because they told them you don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
You don't know what I mean? Your culture, thank you
your coach to presumify. Next question, how much do you
think personified them? So I'm gonna say correctly.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
How much do you think because there's always this conversation
about like God's will and our choices. You know, we're
free will, right, we have free will.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
To see where eagle, to see where eagle?

Speaker 2 (23:27):
I mean, just how much do you think what happens
to us in our lives or where we are in
our lives is actually God's doing versus personal choices? And yeah,
that's it. That is the question.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Let me explain to you the greatest example of sovereign
will that humans. Okay, my kids, they live in my home.
They have the freedom to go into the kitchen any
time they want to. They have the freedom to go
in the backyard. They have they have the freedom to
you know, lay and lay on the bed. They even

(24:03):
have the freedom if I'm not watching, even jump on
the bed. They have the freedom to you know, to
to sit in the living room and watch TV. Right,
they have freedom up under my roof that they have
that freedom. In that freedom, there's still a sovereign freedom
of that everything that they do still falls under the

(24:26):
authority of my unspoken or my spoken presence of the
fact that everyone under the roof knows that they do
not contribute to the bills, they do not contribute to
the building of the house. So there is still a
sovereign respect that they have for the for the room,
and the fact that it's still my house. They have

(24:47):
freedom in the house. Freedom They don't have to ask
me if they can get some water. Yeah, you can
get some water to your house. But they know that
they can't take a water hose and connected to that
to our house and try to water the whole neighborhood.
Because they understand, They naturally instinctively understand. I don't have

(25:07):
to say to them, you can't water everybody. They instinctively
know it's humans. Even in our will, there is an
instinctive knowledge that God. There's a scripture in Romance that
says that God has put eternity in the hearts of man.
That's what every human knows. That's something bigger than this
every human. Now, they may call the different things in
different parts of the world where we know different religious

(25:29):
may call it different things, but every human knows that
that if there's a watch, then there's a watchmaker. If
there's a sky and a star, it seems like that
just can be coincidental. And so we pursue those things.
And so the things that happen in our life, even
when we are believing that we are in charge, there

(25:49):
is still this house that we live in that is
owned by someone else. And even in our mistakes, God
sovereignly uses them and will allow them. Every day in
our lives, God it either creates a God allows, and
they all need to the same. Defining moment is that
He's going to use it all good, bad, and ugly
far better. Look how many people's lives have been changed

(26:11):
for the good. They're going to prison, yeah, yeah, and
and and some people there have been even people who
said going to prison was the best thing to save
my life. You will never think that, so even in
the bad, yeah, there's a plan.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
I always find that conversation interesting because, like I've had
friends who've had awful things in their lives, lost their children.
I have a friend just lost their husband, and it's
always the questioning of God's will is God's will or
or is this just I don't know life or it's
like a I don't know's. It's a conversation that comes up,
especially when you're in your loves, when you're in.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Sorrow, and it is complex and I don't and I
don't expect for I don't expect for this conversation to
all the riddle.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
That I have so much expectation of you.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Man's just so dumb. Sorry, And I think that the
biggest answer that we can give people that has the
most healing that sometimes people that are people of faith
that don't give is you know, the greatest answer to
give people some of the biggest life questions.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
I don't know, And that's when it Yeah, it's because
sometimes people of faith think they always have to have
the answer. But then I can also say but what
I don't know doesn't cancel out what I do. I'm adopted.
My mom and daddy didn't want me. Nobody wanted me.
I was an abandoned child and I lived. Even the
woman that adopted me, she didn't adopt it because she

(27:41):
wanted me. She adopted him because it was really no
all the options, and I felt that absence of love
even from her that I was I was tolerated. I
have lived a life full of charuma because I was
never accepted. But I have seen God use that pain
with this pad to write some of the most powerful
songs that have touched people that I never could have

(28:03):
written if I would have come from a beautiful home,
perfect from a beautiful place. So lemons and lemonade are
all part of God's DNA for us, and he uses it,
and he does it beautifully. Why the house? I can't
answer everything, but the things that I do know, I
will share and I will experience, and I'll tell people
because they've been proven. I've seen it.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
What is the key for that? Somebody who didn't experience
love as a child, who felt that void, And I
know it's connected to God, but there's probably people who
missed that moment, like somebody who came up in the
same circumstances as you, like, what do you I know
you credit that to God, But how do you get
to God?

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Like?

Speaker 2 (28:42):
What is the thing that brought you to God? Did
he find you? Did you like? Was it just God?
Or was the self? What did you like? Was there
therapy too? Was there?

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Great questions? These are great life questions.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
I'm just life. Does God or did you also have tools?
Things you have to do to kind of heal? Well?

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Well?

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well? Healing?

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Healing can also be subjective, right, is there is there
is that? Sometimes you live with limbs, you know, so
sometimes you you have to adjust, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes
you have to win wounded. Yeah yeah, you know, you
know you you you have to understand whether he got
his bars?

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Was a bar?

Speaker 1 (29:30):
I didn't know that? Uh yeah, it's I just think
that it's I just think that the ingredients that God
uses for every son and daughter are going to vary
based on the ultimate plan he has for the long
haul of their life. Right, and so some people may
not find their faith until their death. Bad. But if

(29:53):
that was God's playing, I gotta trust it. It's almost
like I've got to trust God with you, but I
don't understand what he's doing with you. I gotta trust him.
I have four children, and oh four of my kids
have have had the same meal. I have an oldest
son that I've had problems with. We've gone through many things.
But he certainly, yeah, he sat at the same table,

(30:15):
had the same meal, but chose to die just differently.
Why that happens, I don't know. Because every child, I
promise you I was the same dude to every kid.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
How are you as a father? You know?

Speaker 1 (30:30):
I wish that I probably I regret that I did
not have the best tools to learn how to be
the type of husband and father that I probably have
seen on TV that I that I've watched other men
and women have that. Man, I wish I had that
skill set.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
You know.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
I have a much natural skill set of doing what
I do. I never saw a family until I, Like
my wife's family was the first family I saw there
with the mother and father were home together and all
that kind of stuff. It's like, that's crazy, you know,
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And you know, by

(31:11):
the time I'm in my twenties, so you know, my
my my way of expressing love probably had a lot
to do with just providing. You know, I want you
guys to have the best life, and let me try
to provide. I mean, I'm an worcoholic. I work, you know,
and so they say they love me. They say they're

(31:32):
proud of me, you know. They they they they say
they like being around me, you know, and so that
makes me feel good, you know. I mean, they they
want to go to lunch, they want to go to dinner,
they want to hang out. You know, they always ask
them for the hook up, you know. You know, so
you know, you know, I hope I make them proud

(31:52):
with what I didn't have, what I didn't know, you know.
Same for Tammy, you know. I mean, you know, sometime
I look at Tim and out there and I think, man,
I wish that she could have had a more domestic
Joe kind of guy. You know, Hey, honey, I'm home.
Would he be happy though all of that? I don't know.
I don't know. Thirty years in January, thirty years, you know.

(32:14):
But you know, but music is a passion for me.
Creating is a passion for She has to share you
with that, right yeah. Yeah, And you know she's an
incredible woman for doing so. I just wish that, you know,
I I wish that I could have had a mom
and daddy. I wish I could have seen somebody do
it a certain way that I could have known how

(32:34):
to just be better at it.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
You know what's interesting, I just this just came to me.
I saw when Lebron was like talking about Savannah how
he wouldn't have had the career he had because he
wouldn't have been able to have the family he had
if she wasn't taking care of those things while he
was off chasing the moon, you know. And so I
guess there was he was talking about that. I don't know,
And then it started a conversation once me and my

(32:57):
friends like, that's not an easy role for a while
to play. It's like the support role for someone who
has this big star.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Now, what's beautiful about this story is is that they
dated before he became that. Yeah. Yeah, Well when I
married Tammy, I was already yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true,
true true. I mean by the time I got married,
Why We're.

Speaker 3 (33:22):
Sing was a platinum album and you know, listening to that,
you know, yeah, still thank you the same way.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, Like in twenty twenty five, I was listening to it,
and I was having a little annoyance because something was
not going right. And as soon as I put it on,
it's like, wow, it's like a calming thank you, thank you.
It just works every time.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Does it worked for you?

Speaker 1 (33:51):
A good questions? I think I'm just always consumed with
what's in front of me that that I don't get
a chance to always relaxing what is already.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
I think this season for you you should open up to,
like smelling some of the flowers that you laid down,
you know what I mean. Oh, I'm gonna say you
don't have other things to do. I know you have stuff,
but like, no, you don't want to miss but you
know you don't give yourself permission to do that for
a little bit.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
But you know, here's the question, what if it isn't
And it's just a question, okay, shoot, give it to it.
I don't know, what if it's not meant for everyone
to always what silver and gold?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
I just turned it over because I didn't wanted.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
To easy silver gold just start flying.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
That's crazy, okay, And that's not even what I was
listening to.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
That's crazy. That's not what I was listening to that's banana. Wow,
what if it's not for everybody?

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Silver and Gold, maybe maybe you need to Yeah, but
the song says, though I know I run somebody keep
you know, not even fortune.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Maybe he's signing your point, your port.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
They just go signing my point and I love for
y'all just keep rolling in the middle of everything. I
love the kind of show see that. This This is
my kind of show.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
It's a real show. We try to keep it real
here real life. You know, that's the name of the
show is real life.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
This is my kind of show, right, real life.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Ain't everything, ain't no pretty? I love it perfect crooked.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
That is crazy how Silver and Gold came on maybe
just to afraid Yeah, and you know, but I'm going
to mess with you. It does co sound how I'm
wired Like like for me, I do prefer keeping my
eyes there instead of the basking in here. I do
get it.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
I do I I'm I'm giving you what advice that
I don't. I hate looking back and accolades the moment.
I like, what am I gonna do next? See yesterday is.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Like, so you get it? I do get it.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
I do get it.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
And you're trying to get me and you're trying to
get me over here.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Well, because I think also life is short and we
work hard, and I think it's just trying. It's like
a birthday party sometimes, like it's you have a birthday
party because you're happy to be alive and you're grateful
for another year.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
And I don't look for birth because I was I
was a kid that didn't have birthday parties them, so
they don't mean and and you know, maybe that's what
some of it is too, is that I didn't grow
up being celebrated. So I'm okay. I'm just naturally wired
to note. But I'm okay.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
I am okay, I am okay, I'm okay. See I'm
okay with my deficiencies.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
I am.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
I love that about it, you know, Am.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
It's because I see how they're used. Because when I
walk into a room and talk, I'm not gonna be
a pretty Christian. I'm gonna talk. I'm gonna slip the
same roars I shouldn't say. I'm gonna do things I
shouldn't do. Is because I'm you know, it's I don't
have that.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know, it's so interesting. I look at an artist
like if you didn't start your career as a gospel artist.
But let's say you were a rapper first. Like I
look at look at somebody like DMX, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
DMX talk about God every conversation, you say, a prayer
at the concert. Nobody expected the DMX to be perfect.
Nobody because they knew the package that he was the

(37:35):
problem for you, sir, I get it. And you came
in the gate.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, gospel, you didn't get the grade.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yes, like a DMX is appreciate giving the same Yeah,
you better appreciate.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
And I think by nature as humans, that's hypocritical. Yes,
it's because when you look and I know you know this,
when you look at these people in the Bible, they
were some real really crazy mess good people hears or amonger's, adulterous, thieves, killers.
I mean, you know what I'm saying, Like everybody that

(38:09):
we celebrate, Moses killed the dude, David had on, David
had his his side chicks, husband killed.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
David had his side chicks, husband killed, and the Bible
calls him a man after God's so hard.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
You know what I'm saying. Paul the dude, the WROLT
majority of the New Testament saying, young man, a lot
of this stuff from writing. I can't even keep it up,
and I can't even do the good I'm telling y'all
to do. I struggle. We're doing bad myself, and and
uh and and his letter to the Romans. So it's
almost like we as Christians read all of these people

(38:43):
in the Bible that have all these problems, but when
we see a real one in real life, were crucified.
M It's crazy to me. I wish I could have
let you like DMX, so that were you would have
started us.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
So when my mixtape, when my mixtape came about, then
my son dropped, they would have been like, oh, Kirk
got a new album out.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
They would have expected that working out. That's crazy work.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
That is crazy work.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
I know you don't like celebrating yourself, but since we
are talking about your icon status and this part of
your career, what do you Let's just say this, you
know the celebration, but what are you most proud of
in your career?

Speaker 1 (39:23):
But I'm most proud of my career. Problems with my children.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's not your career. That's your children.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
So I can't get away with them, nor you ain't
you ain't let me do that.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
No, of course you're most proud of me.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
I think that probably what I'm most proud of is
that I never ever ever compromised my lyrical content. That
whatever I pulled up on a record and there's something.
People that have any ambiguity, you know, Okay, what is
he talking about?

Speaker 3 (39:52):
You know? Is he being snick? Is it really a
woman is relationship?

Speaker 2 (39:55):
No?

Speaker 1 (39:55):
You know, it's like you knew Kirk was always talking
about God. He was gonna say gee, he was gonna
like like, there was never a time in any of
these records, I mean stalled, you know, looking for you.
I smile, melic. Remember it is like every song, whether
they cost him or not, you knew what I was
talking about. You never had to question the lyrical message
that makes me, that makes me mind the dead. That

(40:18):
that I that I pursued such excellent production and and
and and musical art that I was able to say
things that are not always the most cultural acceptable is
because you could not deny.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
How old were you when you when you found this gift?

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Oh man, when I first started hearing that it was
a gift at five four or five six?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
What just it?

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Responsible people? People were always responding to me in really
big way.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
So you're five years old than you're wife. You're preaching.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
No, I'm playing the piano, I'm planning what I'm taking
songs like I'm taking Elton Jones, Ben in the Jets
and and just watch Right, and I'm remixing it for
the youth choir.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
And then it goes, He's coming back. I know he's
coming back.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
I know that Jesus See is coming. Boom boom boom
bom boom boom boom.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
He said that he is coming back, and the kids
and church going. You know, like five six seven years old, Brook.
That was nineteen seventy seven, so I was like six
seven years old. Weeah, So at a young age, I
was getting attention, and that attention it's like, this is interesting.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
I felt like love to you.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
But it's the most unhealthiest form of love because you
learn how to be a human doing and never a
human being.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
You want to cope here with some bars today, Yeah,
but if you have to have a if you have
to be serving some type of ego kind of or
not ego but self serving thing, at least you're even
if it's not even at worse right, and it's self serve.
Like's if it's self serving in a way where you're
like trying to do things because it makes you feel good.

(42:11):
It's like you're still serving people are still receiving something
good out of it. So how bad could that be?

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Because you live forever the heabster of the widow, Uh huh,
you never get off that wheel. It's because one head
of that type of drug, the love of the people,
people that don't know you, people that are not going
to accept you in your worth stak, people that are
going to criticize the next record if they could see
that type of love is volatile. It's very volatile. It

(42:41):
is only transactional when they're getting something from it. And
so when you when you lean it to warning that
type of love, you're always having to perform the kidd,
So when was.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
The person you've got thrue love? Is your wife?

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I'm quite sure my wife and there have been problems
others where you know, like I said, all the time,
you know, I he I had a history of having
really good people in my life. You know, my wife
is my wife is amazing, beautiful. But my wife is
not the first nice girl I dated. The nice sweetest
girl that I was.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Your wife wants to believe.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, yeah, but I always I can't say that about
men she's dated.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
I'm quite sure that I am quite sure that Terry
has dealt with my crazy behind, and she's probably thought
I probably should have stayed with Ricky Earl.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
So so so I have had probably moments when people
wanted to show me real love. I just didn't know
how to respond to it. And even still now and
still you know, there's this thing that I've learned in
therapy called attachment discarder. Have you heard of it? No, well,
I've heard the word, but okay, I'll give it you
real quick. When a child is in those formative years

(43:50):
from one to six, a child expressing little boy should
be able to ant the breast of his mother and
connect to the breast of his mother, and be able
to connect when the child is not I get a
chest to lie at the breast of his mother. He
never grows up being attached to anything oof. The difference
between aborted children and adopted children is adopted children get

(44:13):
to live to know that they were.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Oh that makes me sad ish real think about it.
But you were chosen by somebody.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
A lot of times foster kids can be tolerated. It's different.
It's different. It's different. And the sweet lady that adopted me,
I knew instinctively because of age difference. Think about it.
She adopted me at sixty four. I was four years old.
By the time she's seventy. I'm ten. Teme into the park.
You know what I'm saying. Well, I went to the movies.

(44:44):
We're not. I mean, she didn't do anything because of
her age. She went to church in the grocery store.
So I had to create life omm that was never
paid for.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
It was a.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Let me ask them, let me ask what she loves you?

Speaker 2 (44:59):
You know that is see you from my heart.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Now.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
I don't know why you would be interrupting my interview.
You don't know who this is? Woman?

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Why is the way I'm so familiar?

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Okay, let me keep talking. And if I keep talking,
I'm going to give you one more chance to figure
got who I am?

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Is this is this Kirk Frankly?

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yes, yes, I love you. I love you. I love
you too, queen. And we're in the middle of we're
in the middle of an interview. I'm sorry, and your
phone right, but you know we only asked it because
it was you.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
I feel so blessed.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Okay, you tell me you love me one more time,
love me one more time. I love you.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
You have no idea.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
I'm blessing.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Back. In fact, in fact, normally I would leave the
BC Awards a little bit early, but I hear you're closing.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
The shows, and I gotta said a whole four hours.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
I told you she loved you.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Now I have anxiety. I love you, queen, I love
you too.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
I'll call you back. So I'll call you in with that. Okay, okay,
so that I don't know why it rang. It was
off all day. That is so great? Are you shutting
my thing off? She love you talk?

Speaker 1 (46:23):
That was fun.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
You loved out here.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
That's fun.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
She knew it was you. That's so funny. Well we're
talking about for the interrupted us.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
I don't know, but it was good. It's been good.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Oh you are the attachment disorder? How do you explain
being able? Because marriage is hard? How do you how
did you become the man that could sustain and keep
a woman and keep a marriage intact for thirty years? Like?
How did you learn how to do that? What was
the pivot? What was this what was the thing?

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Well, if if, if I can be very candid, yes, please.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
My career.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Allowed me to often sometimes hide my deficiencies because I
was always busy and always gone and having tam and
I got married with kids already. Remember I had a
son before I met her, she had a daughter before
she met me. I adopted her daughter, so we always
had and so I've been able to.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Let's just say that God lovingly covered my deficiencies, just
the things I didn't have and didn't know. He just
loved me enough where he covered me and just gave
me grace. And I'm very grateful that he did, because
you know, you're not I mean, no man, it's proud
of his weakness. Is no man is proud of his deficiencies,
things that he may not be naturally good when he

(47:43):
wants to be, you know. I mean, imagine, you know,
spending the whole summer with Jordan.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Learned how to shoot threes and you never can still
shoot threes, you know, or me trying to learn how
to dunk with sha Quille. But because I'm five to four,
I never possessed the capacity of ever playing with big guys.
So a lot of times growing up and all these
traumatic things in your life. You to be surprised how
when you get on the court and you try to

(48:08):
play the games. It can be really depressing when you
see how other guys pull up and it's so easy
for them.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Okay, I'm gonna praise that question that's for you now
that I'll get it to know you better. What have
you done right as a husband?

Speaker 1 (48:24):
H I hope that what I've done right as a
husband is I've tried to lead with my honesty, and
I've tried to find ways that I've tried to lean
in the areas that I found out there was strengths
and things that they loved, things that they loved.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
I really tried to lean in, you know, like like
you know, the life of the party. No, and and
and they they would praise me, I believe for being
a provider.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Like my kids and my wife have never never had
to want to worry about a roof over their head.
They never had to worry. I mean, I'm proud, you
know my kids graduated from college with no debt. You know,
Tanment can go anywhere she wants to at any time,
and she knows I had a husband that will never
tell me no. I ain't never told my wife knowing
nothing whatever she want whatever. And I know that that

(49:22):
you know that that the tangible things may not mean
a lot to the people, But for me, I found
that this is the way I can make people smile.
So it's like I like to do, I like to
kill for them. I'm a giver that I like to
do and I like to give it. When I see
the smiles on their face, it just makes me want
to lean any more.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
But you know, you said something, you said it kind
of like just like it was a small thing. But
leading with honesty in your marriage it's not a small thing.
It is a void in a lot of marriage, just
because it's the fall. And I think the disintegration of
a lot of marriages is that they don't mean with honesty,
is that they're hiding things they have living different, living

(49:59):
double lot different. You know. Just I think leading with
honesty is not a small thing. It's probably something if
you ever living that with your wife, you should probably
be proud of well.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
And then you know, I also, well, won't always always
say also, Tammy, Tammy is an amazing human. She's an
amazing human, you know, Tammy would be an incredible human
without me, you know what I'm saying, Like, she's just
an amazing and I chose well. I leveled her and

(50:30):
and and and she she she has everything great about
our children. It's Tammy and my children are amazing humans.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
I love that. I love that. Thirty years is no joke, Tam.
We got any Tammy in the chair. Tammy's gonna say
why you're a good husband. It's a credible a lot
of things. I see you maybe have a real hard
time with that.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Publish.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, no, definitely. So we had Sarah Jake's on the show.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
She's dope.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Have you spent time with her? She's so dope and fly, like,
I'm not afraid to admit that she ain't perfect. Yeah,
there's some challenges and her no no, but she talks
about that that burden of being the you know, pastor's daughter. Yeah,
and at first not wanting to lean into that because

(51:28):
of the pressure and the expectations. I mean, you talked
about it a little bit, but I'm just curious for you.
Was there a moment in your career, a moment in
your life where the weight of living up to what
you've created became too much.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
For you that day. All still now, Yes, yes, yes,
I've been I've been consistent. I have been a consistent
patient therapy since I was in my twenties. Yeah, I'm
a Christian that praise and she's a therapist.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
I know. I was this so interesting to Oh? Yeah
man I I what do you credit therapy? What do
you credit to therapy? Like fixing? What is therapy fixed
in you?

Speaker 1 (52:08):
But therapy has done for me. It has helped give
language to the why.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Language is good?

Speaker 1 (52:15):
They just give it a language to the why why
am I like this? Why do I process like this?
Why am I deficient like this? Why am I not
the best at this? And there's also allowed me to
give us some language to Tammy.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
M hm so she can help understand.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
So she can. But the beautiful thing is a lot
of it. She already knew, she already saw. You know,
you know, Tammy's Tammy's marriat to it. Ober creative, Angie,
I'm uber, Oh I know, I already know, Angie.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
I'll get out of the bed butt naked and sit
on the piano at three o'clock in the morning or somewhere.
If you come over to my house to sit on
that bench, sit on that piano bench. I promise you
you really are idea makes.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
You really haven't things?

Speaker 1 (53:00):
That's it on that piano bachhead in my house, because
there ain't been nothing.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
But if you got another side, cheeks, you got another side,
just cheeks. And what does your wife do when she
wakes up and need button make it on the bench?

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Does go? Basically because it's just another day. It's just
another day, so funny, you know. And again, man, you
know I I it is. I do want to reiterate, though, Angie,
I am far from perfect. I get it, far from perfect.
I'm not the perfect something right now. No, I just

(53:37):
I just love the honesty of what Christianity I think
has done to people. I think that we have done
more at keeping people away than bringing them in. And
sometimes all we have to say to them is be too.
Do you know how many people feel so guilty and
then worried? Oh my god, by the way you know

(53:59):
now you feel I'm going though, do you still weren't
going on?

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Listen to me. I was raised by a mother who
went to Catholic school. I went to Catholic school till
the third grade, and it was an ongoing conversation about guilt,
guilt for everything. See, it's like the Catholic it's a term,
the Catholic guilt. It's a real thing.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
It is a real thing. Yeah, and that.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Absolutely can push people out, yes and understand.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Yeah, that's that's what you know. And see, I'm concerned.
I'm concerned about the future because think about it. You
want to talk about legacy or something like that. I
spent my whole life trying to do music to tell
people about how done guy is right. And now I
see a climate in society where people are not pursuing

(54:46):
and thinking about God like they used to. That concerns me.
I've spent my life trying to help.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
You called yourself the salesman.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
What was av.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Give me my.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
What's the last time you know somebody about some man?

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Like?

Speaker 1 (55:02):
No, that's my point. So it's almost like, okay, what
is what is? What are some of the things that
we're contributing to this causing people do not want to
buy the wing no more.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Like an encyclopedia salesman And they don't even mean it's
like the Internet.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
So yeah, showing them to the career with with you
remember the suitcases they would carry It would be horrible.
My pitch is this, Give me the pitch so that
they know not amway, y'all God pitch. Here's the God pitch.
Here's the God pitch. Man. I want to say to

(55:38):
you that I am so sorry for the hypocrisy and
the manipulation that you and I both know that we've
seen that have been done to people in this country
and has been weaponized with Christianity. I want to let
you know that that's messed up. Whatever colloquialism you want
to use for messed up, I'm going to I'm going
to yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to say to it.

(56:00):
And I want to let you know that if you're
going through moment in your life right now and you've
tried so many different things, drug, sex, whatever you wanted
to try, and you still feel empty, I want to
let you know the religion can't fix that. Christians can't
fix that because none of us are perfect in that space.
Matter of fact, bro, let me tell you I'm not perfect.
Let me tell you what I just did the other day.
Let me tell you I just messed up the other day. Real.

(56:21):
Let you my God? He yeah, God's God's God's songwriter,
My boy, I just messed up, and I want to
let you know that I have found that there is
a love that I can't mess up too much from
that won't love me the same way. And I'm here
to tell you that if you think about it and
you want to chop it up some more, that same
love is available to you too.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Bro.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
I'm telling you, and I'll be rated to let you
know every problem that I've ever had that I've seen
that love come fix. Give it a chance. You ain't
got to go to church, you ain't got to wart
no suit tie, you ain't got to give no money.
All you got to do is be you, because that's
what God wants. He wants to real, authentic. You don't
be like them, be like him.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
That's all you gotta do.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
That's all you gotta do. I'm gonna tell you why.
It's because as a Christian, that's why Jesus came. Because
Jesus did the rest, He did the hard work, so
you can. So you can. All you got to do
is accept and say yes. And if you jack them tomorrow,
you gotta file these My tops are jacked up. And

(57:24):
guess what you back in the backfuck You ain't got
to save seventeen prayers. You ain't got to pray to
that a saint. You ain't got to do this ritual. Now,
all that was done by that, All that was done
by Hey, SU's Hey, Sue's stand dad, Hey Sue's stand dad.
He did that for you. You can chill now. All
you got to do is acknowledge that they Sue's did it.

(57:46):
Appreciate him. You gotta appreciate him bye bye bye by
giving him some bread. You know how you appreciate it
by the next person you meet, tell them the same
story and get them to know that they could come
to the words the word, the word and pull up imperfect, imperfect?
How did I do? Would you buy it?

Speaker 2 (58:07):
I would consider.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
You're preaching and that's whope. You're preaching to the converted
or and that's home done. Yeah, and some you have
to give more historical context. You have to give you know,
maybe money.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
What about prayer?

Speaker 1 (58:20):
What about it?

Speaker 2 (58:22):
How important is that? How important is prayer in.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
The scheme of your relationship with God? It is very
important first of all to deconstruct what most people think
prayer is. What is prayer? Prayer is an ongoing, natural
conversation between you and your creed. That's what prayer is
at the stoplight, on the toilet, at the toilet, my
God on the toilet.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
You know, it's so funny. Sometimes I'll be saying to prayer.
I'll be like, I can't this, this is this is disrespectful.
That's what webet.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
But that's why we got to deconstruct this thing. Yeah,
it's because everybody has made it so of a world
where they were supposed to be like drinking and breathing.
Your relationship with Christ and with God should be like oxygen.
It's just flowing from you. You never see you never
see an apple tree having to strive to make apples.

(59:14):
All you got to do is stay connected to the branch.
If you stay connected to the branch, you're gonna automatically
make apples. That's what it's supposed to be. How do
you stay connected to the branch by staying connected? Hey man,
just want to talk to this morning, pop. Thank you
for another day. You know, I don't know what today holds,
but you know, let's let's let's let's spend some time

(59:35):
talking today. Love you be with me. I want to
you know, and and and throughout the day you get
that little knock. You know what I'm saying. We all
get the long knock, or we just choose not to
open the door. And when you get the knock, you
know or lords, you will say thank you or or
get the knock, thank you for telling me to buy
so Soo's lunch. Yeah, that was that was that was
that was that was. That's a good look. Yeah, you

(59:57):
know what I'm saying. Respond to that, you know what?
Thank you telling me that to apologize, I show Mungo
send the too, But she'd be getting on my nerves,
you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
You know, you know, those are the things that's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
On my nerves beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
You know, you got some in real life questions for you.
Are you ready sir? Oh no, these are very easy
at a scale of one to ten. How happy are
you in real life right now?

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
That's a good that It depends on what I'm doing
right now right now with you. I'm happy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
Here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Will give me a number ten?

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
What do you operate normally? If you have to say,
what's your number? Like?

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
On average? Oh, it can go from ten to two
really and down.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Yeah, it takes you down.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Something something It can be you know, tragyies in life.
It can be bull I see on TV. It can
be bad news, it can be something happened with a
family member, you know, just life. Life can be. But
then life can also give me a ten.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
So you're bouncing around out here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
I'm an artist, Hey enough saying right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Yeah enough? Side in real life? What do you pray
for most?

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
I pray most for the gratitude of his acceptance of
me in a light of him knowing all my imperfections.
I am blown away by the incredible grace that he
that he gives me in the midst of the imperfect
space that I existed as a man.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Your bars are so strong. What was the last time
in your life that you cried from gratitude?

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Last Wednesday? Really last Wednesday?

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
What happened.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
I was just sitting in the car and I was
listening to one of my favorite preacher's name is Charles Stanley.
He's dead, and I was to an old sermon that
he was start about grace and about how how we
can't we cannot out saying grace. That there's a scripture
a bottle that says that we're saying increased grace, increased
even more, man, Bro, can you imagine that? Can you

(01:02:15):
imagine that there's nothing that is a human we will
ever do that will make God turn this back on us.
Do you know how much relief in that stretch that
takes off you, off of you, to know that there
is nothing that you can ever do that can make
you run out of God's love for you. Bro, You
can sleep at night. You can sleep at night. And

(01:02:36):
and and I was sitting in the parking lot of
my uh uh, my dermatologists, the total a lot of
my dermatologists.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Of course you have you think this happens without so
a little help.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
I had and I had an ingrown hair and your
turn to look bump, and uh, I was having it
and I was having to shoot it real quick. And
I was finished up that sermon, and I was sitting
on parton not of crime, just thinking, just just grateful
for grace.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
That's good. I'm motivated today. How important is money to you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Money is important? Money is important, very important.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
You said that you enjoy giving things.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Yes, yes, yes, And it's important to get the message out.
It's important to do things for people. It's it's important
to to be able to understand its value. It's because
if you don't understand its value, then you can't be
trusted with it. So yeah, it's very important this question.
Give it to me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
It's a simple question. No, it's a really simple question.
It's just what do you think your legacy will be?
Do you think about your legacy more now?

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
And I think I hope And instead of thinking, okay,
if I hope, I hope my legacy will be. Somebody
tweeted something and I will we have time. So four
days ago somebody tweeted this. Okay, now there are words

(01:04:10):
in this that this individual was saying, and I'll show
you the tweet so you know I'm not just trying
to have an opportunity to say the words the longest
say word. Before days ago, this guy said, Kirk Franklin,
make that church look fun. I definitely would have been
involved more if he was my youth pastor. He make
it seem like you can be a church and a
regularly at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
That could bring it to the tea right now, That
right there, that won't bring a tear out of here.
And I saw it. That right there summarizes what I
want my legacy to do. That right there, did you
reply to this post. You know what, I did not
need to at least put a heart on it, at
least the heart. Well, I took the snapshot of it,
so I'll have to go back. Oh you only have

(01:04:58):
the snapshot, then you should go back. You should have
on that vally changes life.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
I'm gonna do it. Can you can you show my
old behind how to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
We're gonna show you Wenna.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Show a senior citizen. But look at that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
How nice that is? So he doesn't even know that
you in your phone have a screeche said his name,
so if he watches this, let's give it it's out at.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
His name is at money Power sp of course it's
money Power s P. Yeah, what is SPV?

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
I don't know SPVs? Okay, money power respect, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Like that's probly what it is. Yeah, keezy Keezy kesy
at money Power sp mm hmm kurk frankly make that
it look fun. I definitely would have been involved more
if he was my youth pastor. He makes it seem
like you could be a church in a regular at
the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Poetry, come on, poetry that touched your heart?

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
You see, I met I called him like, Okay, look
at that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
We came back to that full circle moment because we
were talking about social media before and how evil lived.
Look at how look at how that there too the
connection with real connection. So he was connected by you.
I felt connected to you and posted that you were
so touched by it that you took a photo of
it and kept it in your phone. He don't even
know what he put on the like, So just it's

(01:06:22):
a nice it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing to see.
That's a beautiful There can be goodness. It's a beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
That was worth getting your phone for.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Okay. My last two questions, sir, in a real life,
in real life, how important? And what have you learned
about forgiveness? And now I've heard you talk about go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
I've learned that forgiveness is free, but trust is earned,
and they are not synonymous.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
You've had to forgive a lot of your life.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Yes, forgive, but that's forgetting. It's the monster. It's then,
it is the monster, and it is a process. And
I think that people should not be demonized just because
the process may be long for them. And it's okay,
for you if the process is not as quick as others,
don't don't let the person that is needing the forgiveness

(01:07:17):
to try to rush you at a speed that you're
not ready for.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
You give it when you have it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
You give it when you have it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Yeah, but you, I know, you went through this thing
with your father where you were like connected with him.
Was there a forgiveness in that too?

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Oh well, he didn't know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
Just yea.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
This was a few years ago that most of my
life because I was adopted. The man I thought was
my father he died in twenty seventeen. He was never
in my life. Two years ago we just found out
that there was another man that was really my father.
But he didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Oh so it wasn't a choice that he made. It
just he didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
He didn't know. Wow, he didn't know. And he's a
good dude. But the problem is I find with him
the same thing I found at home as a husband
and father. It's hard to connect and he's done that
and he wants it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Like like if you could he put me on his lap.
He like, sir, he said, bro, I can't get on
your lap alls. You know, just meant you just met
you halls. I can't get on your lap, bro, So
you know, you know me me that that that that
connecting thing is difficult for me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Did it free you of anything?

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Did it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Did it give you any peace or any type of
if anything?

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
I think it made things a little more complex because
it put me back in touch with my biological mother.
I had hadn't been in touch with her for twenty
three years. She still denies it, even with two DNA tests,
she still denies that this man as my father. So
you know that's painful. So you know, it kind of
opened up wounds that I didn't really want to have
opened back up. And I'm trying to process it. And
now I'll have this new interviews of my life. Who's

(01:08:53):
a great guy. I just wore a lot of times
with connection, I dude, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
So weird because you connect with people all over the world.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
Just through It's through the thing that loved me first. Music.
Music was the first thing that told me it loved me.
So that's what I know. That's my language. And I'm
not proud of that. I'm not proud of that because
this man or whether taming my kids or you know,
grandkids or they're just whatever, you know. I wish that

(01:09:25):
I could feel what other people feel. I do do,
and I hate that. I it's almost like a ceiling.
It's like a ceiling. And I've been in therapy and
praying for many years, and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
So have you made progress?

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
Sometimes? I think I have some? But but but there's
sometimes I wonder you are a man who is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Sitting in the parking lot of the dermatologists in tears
about grace over my life, but not in connection with
someone else.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
Yeah, over my life.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Could you not be brought to tears by I don't know,
telling her, Telling you how much she loves you, or
your one of your kids won't bring into tears my dad?
Oh my goodness, that sound interesting. That's hurtful, right, Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
It makes you feel less that, it makes you feel
less of a human. It does. It can make you
feel less of a human.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
How does someone someone watching this I'm sorry, yeah, that's good,
and I mean it's not good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, How
does someone watching this stop that from happening? Maybe somebody
who's not hasn't been as hurt or as as have

(01:10:41):
felt that as deeply as you, like a father, How
does somebody break that cycle.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Love your children, Love your children, and be honest with
your children. Be honest with your children. I think that
people around you give you grace when you are truthful,
when you're just honest about what you don't have. Like
I remember saying something to one of my youngest selves
because he was getting married, and he was getting married,

(01:11:07):
and I shared some very honest things with him about
my deficiencies, and I wanted to say and I said
to him, I said, are you doing this because you
feel pressured by the church. Are you feeling like this
because you feel like you got to get because you know,
the church, a lot of people get married because they
don't want to live in sin, and so, you know,
you know, like that that was part of my culture,

(01:11:28):
that was part of my church culture. You know, you're
getting married because you don't want to be living in
fornication and sin. And so you know, a lot of
people brought from being fortunicators and end up becoming adulterous
because they were not ready to really do it without
all of that in the place. You know, you should
marriage of you shouldn't married because you think this is
how I get right with God. You know, that's manipulation.

(01:11:49):
And that's what a lot of times religion can do
to people. It can manipulate them into things. And so
I said to him, I said, why why do you
want to get married? I needed to look at him
in the face because I needed to know he felt
no pressure. And his answers were so beautiful, It's so honest.
I was like, Oh, he's ready, and he's ready the

(01:12:09):
right way. My my, my youngest son. I would get anything.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
You admire him? Is it because of his ability to.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
Love just who he is. He's just an amazing hemn.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
He is.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
He is his mother's son.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
He is.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
I could sit here and talk to you, by the way,
the rest of the day.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Rate and then I'm just a fan, So that that
makes it show super dope. You got people calling me,
talking to people, and it's a good day, right, good day.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
I mean, you've been on this road since five years
old making music. You're talking to child, right, What do
you know about God now this moment, this icon and
your icon and this many years in the game. What
do you know about God now that you didn't know
when we were starting your career in this room?

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
I wish I would have known starting then that I've
learned now is uh, is that he won't give up
on me. When you have had abandoned issues and rejection issues,
you a lot of times transfer that even in your faith,
you know and you do a lot of stuff out
of fear. And the fact of looking at my life

(01:13:34):
now at fifty five and all the ups and downs
and are taken God through, and the fact that that
I found that he won't give up. That that that
that that the story of faith and its purest forms

(01:13:56):
is God made man, Man rejected God, and God won't
stop chasing Ben until he wins. That's the story of faith.
That's the story of Kurt. He never stopped chasing. That
brings me to tears because that is in its purest form.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Love. Yeah, thank you for today. What a special conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
Tears, bro.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
He's an icon. I don't care what he says.

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Episode Transcript

Host

Angie Martinez

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