February 28, 2025 • 16 mins
Dr. Vanessa Tyler continues her conversation with the president of the ACLU and Associate Dean at New York Universtiy School of Law Deborah Archer. Deborah provides insight into how the ACLU and others are fighting against the apparent destruction of our democracy and the dismantling of our civil liberties and equality infrastructure. She discusses past successes through litigation and how they continue to use the law to combat executive orders and mandates that threaten our community. Deborah has also written a book titled "Dividing Lines: How Transportation Infrastructure Reinforces Racial Inequality" that details the role race has played in the U.S. transportation infrastructure over the years. Through city planning, highway building and property evaluations, city officials have used these tools to suppress Black communities and restrict economic growth.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
With signed some executive orders, so very important in just
about every case. As you can hear President Trump's sharpie
pen is busy. So that should take us to the
forefront right absolutely, But waiting on the other side of
(00:20):
many of those executive orders will be this black woman
who will see the Trump administration in court.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I think it's important to know that litigation is an
important piece of pushing back against this assault on our
civil rights and civil liberties.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
That's Debra Archer, head of the ACLU, the organization with
the pushback, shut Down, fight back lawsuits.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So within hours of the executive order around birthright citizenship,
we challenged that through litigation. We've also filed litigation challenging
the termination of asylum applications.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Defending America. In Blackland and now as a brown person,
you just feel so invisible and where we're from, brothers
and sisters. I welcome you to this joyful day and
we celebrate freedom. Where we are, I know someone's heard
something and where we're going. We the people means all
(01:23):
the people. The Black Information Network presents Blackland with your
host Vanessa Tyler. It feels all too much to take
in all the changes, flurry of executive orders. Thank goodness
for people focused on the fight, like ACLU President Deborah Archer. Deborah, welcome,
(01:43):
Thank you for having me first. Would you set the stage.
What's going on in America right now?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, I think what most people are seeing is the
destruction of our democracy and really the destruction of the
infrastructure of civil rights. And there has been a flurry
of executive orders and other actions that are challenging so
many of the pieces of our communities and our government
(02:10):
that have helped bring us to a place where we
are more equitable, more inclusive, and more free, honestly, and
we're seeing it dismantled piece by piece. But what I've
been hardened to see is the way that we are
fighting back in communities around the country, organizations, nonprofit organizations,
individuals really fighting for what's important to us and to
(02:33):
our people.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Now, many of those executive orders end in court, right,
some of them do.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We're not going to be able to litigate our way
out of this problem. We had to build our way
out of the problem. But litigation is certainly a primary
tool and it's on the front line. So people would
have seen over the past three weeks lots of litigation
filed attempting to slow down, to stop, to ameliorate some
(03:01):
of the worst harms that we're going to see coming
out of these executive orders, and the ACL has been
one of those organizations. So within hours of the executive
order around birthright citizenship, we challenged that through litigation. We've
also filed litigation challenging the termination of asylum application system.
(03:24):
We are challenging the executive order that is expanding expedited
removal nationwide. We are challenging the executive order that declared
an invasion at the US Mexico border. We're also challenging
the executive order that's directing all federal agencies to take
(03:45):
steps to stop the provision of gender firming medical care
for transgender people under nineteen years old and to stop
that harm and that damage to those families that are
seeking important medical care for their children. We are challenging
the executive order that is not allowing X as a
(04:06):
gender marker on passports. We filed an action seeking access
to counsel for individuals who are transferred from immigration custody
in the US to the naval base on guantanam obey,
and we have filed freedom of information law requests related
to Doge's access to sensitive government records. We want to
(04:31):
make sure we're fighting to protect confidential, personal, financial, healthcare,
and other sensitive government held records of Americans.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
A lot of your power certainly is in the court room.
But can we rely on judges to keep American democracy
and will the administration listen to these judges?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Well, I don't know the answer to that second question.
I certainly hope that the rule of law will prevail.
It's an important piece of our governmental structure that we
have courts that are there to define constitutional limits and
to enforce our laws, and we have a Congress and
an executive function that's supposed to respect the rules and
(05:16):
orders of our court. I think a lot of people
are worried because our courts are more conservative conservative than
they have been in a long time. Donald Trump appointed
a lot of judges during his first term in office,
and those judges are there and tend to be more
conservative and less open to respecting and expanding the protections
(05:38):
for civil rights and civil liberties. But Barack Obama and
Joe Biden also appointed a lot of federal judges, and
they're there as well to review these cases and to
evaluate civil rights and civil liberties. And it's also important
to note that we've won the ACLU has won cases
before Trump judges before last term, his last term, We've
(06:03):
won cases before a conservative Supreme Court. So we should
not think that the courts are lost. We are going
to fight in the courts, use every tool that we
have to defend our democracy in our civil rights. We
shouldn't give up any tool and assume that it won't
be there for us.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
What about these DEI reversals? Is there a legal solution
there to reverse the reversals.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
We're exploring options to challenge some of the attacks on diversity, equity,
and inclusion measures. We have used similar tactics and explored
similar challenges when we were looking at a legislation that
people were calling things like anti vocal legislation that we're
attacking critical race theory teaching. So we're looking at whether
(06:56):
or not they are First Amendment challenges there, whether they're
are equal protection challenges challenging people because of their race,
challenging programs because of people's right to free speech and
First Amendment. We're looking at due process arguments as well,
So we are certainly exploring our options.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Let me ask about the Supreme Court. There's been so
much trust lost there, and I'm wondering whether we can
really rely on the High Court. I know it's conservative leaning,
and you mentioned earlier that you've had some wins, but
in the long run, with all this litigation, you know,
(07:39):
which I understand they're hoping to push it up to
the Supreme Court. Ultimately, how much can Americans really rely
on them at this point?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I think we shouldn't lose faith in the Supreme Court.
As I mentioned, we've had as the ACLU cases go
up to the Supreme Court involving voting rights, involving ten
to add a citizenship question to the census around separation
of children from their families as they migrate into this country.
(08:12):
And we've had successes before the court. And so we're
going to push forward, put forward our best case, and
demand that the Supreme Court protect our civil rights and
our civil liberties. And we'll do that in all levels
of federal court. But again, I don't think that we
believe that litigation is going to fix everything. Litigation certainly
(08:32):
is not the only tool that we have and use
as an organization. It is not the only tool that
people who want to fight to protect civil rights and
civil liberties have at their disposal either, so we should
use everything. So, yes, we're going to be in court,
we're going to have faith that the Supreme Court is
going to uphold the law, and we're going to be
able to enforce the law. But we're also advocating with
(08:56):
state and local governments. There's incredible power in state and
local govern means to step in to the breach that's
been left by the federal government in terms of protecting
civil rights and civil liberties, and we're going to work
with those state and local governments to try to fill
those spaces. There's power in our communities for people in
communities around the country to stand up and demand that
(09:19):
their elected officials enforce our laws, enforce our constitution. They
push back against overreach in the attempts to expand executive
power beyond what was envisioned by our Constitution and our founders.
Another one of the many hats you wear is as
associate dean at the NYU School of Law. Has NYU
(09:43):
also changed the way black students are omitted. NYU looks
at students holistically. They look at their undergraduate GPA, they
look at their admissions tests. In law school, it's the
lsat They look at their essays andters of recommendation, how
rigorous their curriculum was, and they look at the student holistically.
(10:05):
And for a lot of our students, race really tells
the story of who they are and how they got
to be where they are. Race tells a story of
obstacles that they've had to overcome. So we have always
looked at students holistically, and I think we are continuing
to look at students holistically.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Part of your work also involves preparing the next generation
of lawyers. What must they know now that you didn't
have to know when you were in law school?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You know, I do this work in part so that
my children don't have to fight the same fights that
I fought. And I do my law teaching hoping that
the students that I am able to teach and have
the opportunity to mentor won't have to fight the same
fights that I've had to fight. And unfortunately, I see
(10:53):
that they are in a position where they are relitigating
some of the things that I litigated as a young attorney,
and so I'm hoping first to give them a sense
of hope they have to know that a better future
is possible, that we have to break down these large,
overwhelming problems into their constituent parts and figure out how
(11:16):
we can move forward in a way that is going
to result in a better tomorrow. So none of the
problems that we are facing have a quick fix. We
are not going to be able to reverse all the
damage that we're seeing from these executive orders overnight. We're
not going to be able to reverse the damage in
the next two years or four years. It's a long
(11:37):
term plan, and so I'm helping our students understand how
they have to be planning not only what are they
going to do today to minimize the harm, to stop
the immediate harm, but what are they going to do
tomorrow and a year from now and ten years from
now to rebuild our communities and to lay the foundation
(11:58):
and the tracks that are going to lead us to
more equitable, more just future for them and for their children.
I have a mentor who is amazing, and he tells
me to remember that we're all sitting in the shade
of trees we did not plant, and drinking from wells
we did not dig. And so I am trying to
teach my students to get up every day and to
(12:20):
dig wells and plant trees, even if they may not
see the benefit of it in their lifetime. That's right,
because I believe that each and every day I'm fighting
for a future that I may never live to see,
but I know is possible.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
You're also a Yale graduate and have written extentably in
the benefits of diversity in law schools, a benefit not
just to the black student, benefits for the school too,
in the entire student body. Would you expand upon that
a little.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
We shouldn't assume that the law is neutral. The law
is influenced by the environment, by the ecosystem in which
it is written and in which it's applied, and race
is certainly a part of that ecosystem. And so we
want to make sure we bring together people from a
diverse array of backgrounds, lived experiences, and communities to talk about,
(13:16):
to engage the conversations, to critique, to think about how
law will play out. A lot of what we are
seeing today around the country is a reaction to a
country that is more diverse and more inclusive than it
has ever been, and people are uncomfortable with that, and
people are trying to push back and fight against that
(13:37):
trying to shut down all of the pipelines opportunity that
we have created, and that includes affirmative action and DII programs.
Those were things that opened up opportunity, that made our
system more equitable, more open, more fair. It helped us
remove some of the criteria that really just magnified inequality,
(14:00):
and we're seeing those opportunities and those programs that created
access being torn apart.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Deborah Archer is also an author. Her latest book, Dividing Lines,
How Transportation Infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I would like to say that Dividing Lines helps us
understand the history of civil rights. As the civil rights
movement began to win victories and segregationists could no longer
consistently rely on the law to enforce racial hierarchy, communities
around the country began to rely on transportation infrastructure highways,
public transportation roads, even sidewalks to do the work of
(14:42):
oppression that they could no longer depend on the law
to do so. Ultimately, Dividing Lines is a book about
how adaptive, creative, and resilient racism is. Those who love
yesterday will always fight against tomorrow, and they're good at it,
and this book is a story about how we have
(15:02):
allowed racism to adapt and involve in our transportation infrastructure
to help white communities fight against tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So as America enters this new world, emphasized in the
President's inaugural speech, the Golden Age of America begins right now.
Will that golden glow shine on many or just a
select few? During every single day of the Trump administration,
I will very simply put America first. It's a never
(15:34):
ending battle, but we know ACLU president author and NYU
Law School Associate Dean Deborah Archer is on the front lines. Deborah,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Thank you for having me. I enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Go to the website ACLU dot org for more and
for the book Dividing Lines, How Transportation infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Go to ww Noorton dot com. I'm Vanessa Tyler. Join
me next time on Blackland. A new episode drops every week.
Be sure to like and subscribe.
With signed some executive orders, so very important in just
about every case. As you can hear President Trump's sharpie
pen is busy. So that should take us to the
forefront right absolutely, But waiting on the other side of
(00:20):
many of those executive orders will be this black woman
who will see the Trump administration in court.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I think it's important to know that litigation is an
important piece of pushing back against this assault on our
civil rights and civil liberties.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
That's Debra Archer, head of the ACLU, the organization with
the pushback, shut Down, fight back lawsuits.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So within hours of the executive order around birthright citizenship,
we challenged that through litigation. We've also filed litigation challenging
the termination of asylum applications.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Defending America. In Blackland and now as a brown person,
you just feel so invisible and where we're from, brothers
and sisters. I welcome you to this joyful day and
we celebrate freedom. Where we are, I know someone's heard
something and where we're going. We the people means all
(01:23):
the people. The Black Information Network presents Blackland with your
host Vanessa Tyler. It feels all too much to take
in all the changes, flurry of executive orders. Thank goodness
for people focused on the fight, like ACLU President Deborah Archer. Deborah, welcome,
(01:43):
Thank you for having me first. Would you set the stage.
What's going on in America right now?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, I think what most people are seeing is the
destruction of our democracy and really the destruction of the
infrastructure of civil rights. And there has been a flurry
of executive orders and other actions that are challenging so
many of the pieces of our communities and our government
(02:10):
that have helped bring us to a place where we
are more equitable, more inclusive, and more free, honestly, and
we're seeing it dismantled piece by piece. But what I've
been hardened to see is the way that we are
fighting back in communities around the country, organizations, nonprofit organizations,
individuals really fighting for what's important to us and to
(02:33):
our people.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Now, many of those executive orders end in court, right,
some of them do.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We're not going to be able to litigate our way
out of this problem. We had to build our way
out of the problem. But litigation is certainly a primary
tool and it's on the front line. So people would
have seen over the past three weeks lots of litigation
filed attempting to slow down, to stop, to ameliorate some
(03:01):
of the worst harms that we're going to see coming
out of these executive orders, and the ACL has been
one of those organizations. So within hours of the executive
order around birthright citizenship, we challenged that through litigation. We've
also filed litigation challenging the termination of asylum application system.
(03:24):
We are challenging the executive order that is expanding expedited
removal nationwide. We are challenging the executive order that declared
an invasion at the US Mexico border. We're also challenging
the executive order that's directing all federal agencies to take
(03:45):
steps to stop the provision of gender firming medical care
for transgender people under nineteen years old and to stop
that harm and that damage to those families that are
seeking important medical care for their children. We are challenging
the executive order that is not allowing X as a
(04:06):
gender marker on passports. We filed an action seeking access
to counsel for individuals who are transferred from immigration custody
in the US to the naval base on guantanam obey,
and we have filed freedom of information law requests related
to Doge's access to sensitive government records. We want to
(04:31):
make sure we're fighting to protect confidential, personal, financial, healthcare,
and other sensitive government held records of Americans.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
A lot of your power certainly is in the court room.
But can we rely on judges to keep American democracy
and will the administration listen to these judges?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Well, I don't know the answer to that second question.
I certainly hope that the rule of law will prevail.
It's an important piece of our governmental structure that we
have courts that are there to define constitutional limits and
to enforce our laws, and we have a Congress and
an executive function that's supposed to respect the rules and
(05:16):
orders of our court. I think a lot of people
are worried because our courts are more conservative conservative than
they have been in a long time. Donald Trump appointed
a lot of judges during his first term in office,
and those judges are there and tend to be more
conservative and less open to respecting and expanding the protections
(05:38):
for civil rights and civil liberties. But Barack Obama and
Joe Biden also appointed a lot of federal judges, and
they're there as well to review these cases and to
evaluate civil rights and civil liberties. And it's also important
to note that we've won the ACLU has won cases
before Trump judges before last term, his last term, We've
(06:03):
won cases before a conservative Supreme Court. So we should
not think that the courts are lost. We are going
to fight in the courts, use every tool that we
have to defend our democracy in our civil rights. We
shouldn't give up any tool and assume that it won't
be there for us.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
What about these DEI reversals? Is there a legal solution
there to reverse the reversals.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
We're exploring options to challenge some of the attacks on diversity, equity,
and inclusion measures. We have used similar tactics and explored
similar challenges when we were looking at a legislation that
people were calling things like anti vocal legislation that we're
attacking critical race theory teaching. So we're looking at whether
(06:56):
or not they are First Amendment challenges there, whether they're
are equal protection challenges challenging people because of their race,
challenging programs because of people's right to free speech and
First Amendment. We're looking at due process arguments as well,
So we are certainly exploring our options.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Let me ask about the Supreme Court. There's been so
much trust lost there, and I'm wondering whether we can
really rely on the High Court. I know it's conservative leaning,
and you mentioned earlier that you've had some wins, but
in the long run, with all this litigation, you know,
(07:39):
which I understand they're hoping to push it up to
the Supreme Court. Ultimately, how much can Americans really rely
on them at this point?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I think we shouldn't lose faith in the Supreme Court.
As I mentioned, we've had as the ACLU cases go
up to the Supreme Court involving voting rights, involving ten
to add a citizenship question to the census around separation
of children from their families as they migrate into this country.
(08:12):
And we've had successes before the court. And so we're
going to push forward, put forward our best case, and
demand that the Supreme Court protect our civil rights and
our civil liberties. And we'll do that in all levels
of federal court. But again, I don't think that we
believe that litigation is going to fix everything. Litigation certainly
(08:32):
is not the only tool that we have and use
as an organization. It is not the only tool that
people who want to fight to protect civil rights and
civil liberties have at their disposal either, so we should
use everything. So, yes, we're going to be in court,
we're going to have faith that the Supreme Court is
going to uphold the law, and we're going to be
able to enforce the law. But we're also advocating with
(08:56):
state and local governments. There's incredible power in state and
local govern means to step in to the breach that's
been left by the federal government in terms of protecting
civil rights and civil liberties, and we're going to work
with those state and local governments to try to fill
those spaces. There's power in our communities for people in
communities around the country to stand up and demand that
(09:19):
their elected officials enforce our laws, enforce our constitution. They
push back against overreach in the attempts to expand executive
power beyond what was envisioned by our Constitution and our founders.
Another one of the many hats you wear is as
associate dean at the NYU School of Law. Has NYU
(09:43):
also changed the way black students are omitted. NYU looks
at students holistically. They look at their undergraduate GPA, they
look at their admissions tests. In law school, it's the
lsat They look at their essays andters of recommendation, how
rigorous their curriculum was, and they look at the student holistically.
(10:05):
And for a lot of our students, race really tells
the story of who they are and how they got
to be where they are. Race tells a story of
obstacles that they've had to overcome. So we have always
looked at students holistically, and I think we are continuing
to look at students holistically.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Part of your work also involves preparing the next generation
of lawyers. What must they know now that you didn't
have to know when you were in law school?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You know, I do this work in part so that
my children don't have to fight the same fights that
I fought. And I do my law teaching hoping that
the students that I am able to teach and have
the opportunity to mentor won't have to fight the same
fights that I've had to fight. And unfortunately, I see
(10:53):
that they are in a position where they are relitigating
some of the things that I litigated as a young attorney,
and so I'm hoping first to give them a sense
of hope they have to know that a better future
is possible, that we have to break down these large,
overwhelming problems into their constituent parts and figure out how
(11:16):
we can move forward in a way that is going
to result in a better tomorrow. So none of the
problems that we are facing have a quick fix. We
are not going to be able to reverse all the
damage that we're seeing from these executive orders overnight. We're
not going to be able to reverse the damage in
the next two years or four years. It's a long
(11:37):
term plan, and so I'm helping our students understand how
they have to be planning not only what are they
going to do today to minimize the harm, to stop
the immediate harm, but what are they going to do
tomorrow and a year from now and ten years from
now to rebuild our communities and to lay the foundation
(11:58):
and the tracks that are going to lead us to
more equitable, more just future for them and for their children.
I have a mentor who is amazing, and he tells
me to remember that we're all sitting in the shade
of trees we did not plant, and drinking from wells
we did not dig. And so I am trying to
teach my students to get up every day and to
(12:20):
dig wells and plant trees, even if they may not
see the benefit of it in their lifetime. That's right,
because I believe that each and every day I'm fighting
for a future that I may never live to see,
but I know is possible.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
You're also a Yale graduate and have written extentably in
the benefits of diversity in law schools, a benefit not
just to the black student, benefits for the school too,
in the entire student body. Would you expand upon that
a little.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
We shouldn't assume that the law is neutral. The law
is influenced by the environment, by the ecosystem in which
it is written and in which it's applied, and race
is certainly a part of that ecosystem. And so we
want to make sure we bring together people from a
diverse array of backgrounds, lived experiences, and communities to talk about,
(13:16):
to engage the conversations, to critique, to think about how
law will play out. A lot of what we are
seeing today around the country is a reaction to a
country that is more diverse and more inclusive than it
has ever been, and people are uncomfortable with that, and
people are trying to push back and fight against that
(13:37):
trying to shut down all of the pipelines opportunity that
we have created, and that includes affirmative action and DII programs.
Those were things that opened up opportunity, that made our
system more equitable, more open, more fair. It helped us
remove some of the criteria that really just magnified inequality,
(14:00):
and we're seeing those opportunities and those programs that created
access being torn apart.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Deborah Archer is also an author. Her latest book, Dividing Lines,
How Transportation Infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I would like to say that Dividing Lines helps us
understand the history of civil rights. As the civil rights
movement began to win victories and segregationists could no longer
consistently rely on the law to enforce racial hierarchy, communities
around the country began to rely on transportation infrastructure highways,
public transportation roads, even sidewalks to do the work of
(14:42):
oppression that they could no longer depend on the law
to do so. Ultimately, Dividing Lines is a book about
how adaptive, creative, and resilient racism is. Those who love
yesterday will always fight against tomorrow, and they're good at it,
and this book is a story about how we have
(15:02):
allowed racism to adapt and involve in our transportation infrastructure
to help white communities fight against tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So as America enters this new world, emphasized in the
President's inaugural speech, the Golden Age of America begins right now.
Will that golden glow shine on many or just a
select few? During every single day of the Trump administration,
I will very simply put America first. It's a never
(15:34):
ending battle, but we know ACLU president author and NYU
Law School Associate Dean Deborah Archer is on the front lines. Deborah,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Thank you for having me. I enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Go to the website ACLU dot org for more and
for the book Dividing Lines, How Transportation infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Go to ww Noorton dot com. I'm Vanessa Tyler. Join
me next time on Blackland. A new episode drops every week.
Be sure to like and subscribe.
Host
Vanessa Tyler
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