September 9, 2020 • 31 mins
Debbie Harry, Blondie frontwoman and siren of the ‘70s NYC punk scene, talks about making the jump from the Big Apple to the City of Angels, with stops at The Whisky, KROQ, American Bandstand, and, of course, Phil Spector’s mansion. Her story is also The Ramones’ story, and both the beauty and the beasts share the good, the bad, and the downright weird in their tales of working with pop music’s most reclusive and abusive record producer.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Blood on the Tracks is the production of I Heart
Radio and Double Elvis. Phil Spector was a musical genius,
one of the most successful record producers of all time.
He's now sitting behind bars, serving a nineteen years to
life sentence for murder. This is his story told by
his so called friends. This is Special Agent Paul Ramon
(00:28):
with a Federal Bureau of Investigation, working case number double
oh four DASH ten death seven four one nine case
subject as Specter Philip Harvey. This information pertains to a
period ending February four. Interview subjects Harry debrah Ann Interview
number six STAPH six six STAPs five to four DEAP
two O two Recall number six data's February two thousand five.
(00:59):
Gons were his fascination. He showed them off, waved them around.
It's tragic the way things turned out for him, because
being such a genius and such a front runner and
an inventive producer, it seems awful what happened. I honestly
wish it didn't happen. I don't wish that sort of
thing on anything. He obviously made a terrible mistake, but
(01:23):
it's not terribly surprising that he could make such a mistake.
You understand what I'm talking about. I think he had
a wild side to him of reputation. I can't really
venture to guess on what he was thinking. I think
it was sort of a game to him, and sometimes
games turn out badly. The kind of game he played
(01:45):
was the kind of left tragedies in their wake, the
kind at leaves blood on the drugs m H. Chapter six,
(02:17):
Phil Specter and Debbie Harry. I'm not saying the guy
wasn't a genius, because obviously he was listened to his records.
The genius is there. It was what he perceived to
(02:39):
be the size and scope of his own genius that
was the problem. He thought he was the second coming
of Wagner and that everyone should step aside make way
for Wagner Jr. But more often than not, the man
was nothing more than a vindictive, petty thug. The pettiest thugs,
(03:00):
of course, the thug who hides behind bigger thugs, guys
like George Brand, the guys who would follow him around
and flank him at the restaurant the studio, arms crossed
against their chest, Phil and George would pull guns from
their holsters and compare them like some big dick contest.
(03:20):
But you know, the motivation behind some overcompensating handgun jive
is anything but big. If you know what I'm saying.
Someone told me he even brought his thugs to his
tenure high school reunion. Can you imagine everyone else shows
up with their wife for their husband a date at least,
(03:40):
and here comes the second Coming of Wagner, walking tandem
with some mute muscle head less of Wagner incarnate than
he was. The helicopter and Apocalypse now blaring Wagner at
full blast him. He just humiliated everyone in his path.
It was his revenge on a world that had humiliated him.
(04:03):
That cologne he wore, that Caesar cologne, I think it was.
He just swam in this stuff. It was like fucking
napalm to the rest of us. I was used to it.
I was used to this particular strain of Caesar drenched
male ego. My whole stage persona and Blondie was that
of a woman from a man's point of view. After all,
(04:24):
I lived in that world. I was surrounded by guys
in Blondie and guys in every other band in New
York City. Tina was the only exception to that rule.
I'd heard everything been asked, everything been told, everything been
sized up, belittled, propositioned, humiliated. But I'd never had a
gun pulled on me before. When you feel a forty
(04:47):
five pressed into the worn leather of your thigh high boot,
you know it's a forty five. Doesn't matter if you've
never felt it before, you just know. All the warning
signs were there. Our His reputation preceded him, of course,
just like his Caesar cologne. We had heard all the stories,
(05:10):
and then he was there in our dressing room. Blundie
had made the jump from New York to l A.
It was like cheap trick playing Buddhican. They loved us
in l A in a way that New York could
never love us. We did a week's residency at the Whiskey.
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers opened, and then we did
a second week with the Ramones. The crowds po God
(05:31):
and Body slammed. The room was electric night after night.
We were upstairs in one of those cramped dressing rooms
after one of the shows with the Ramones. You think
New York dressing rooms are small. Joey was hunched over
and Phil walks in. He's in a long black cape,
(05:54):
black shirt, black tie, black sunglasses, beard and big hair,
a big cross hung from a chain around his neck.
He looks like Dracula's hairdresser. He has walked through centuries,
untouched by time. He's got a button on that says
in the flesh, you know, from a first record. And
(06:17):
he kicks everyone out but us. He kicks out Joe
and the boys. He's there to see us. We were
used to playing second fiddle to all the others in
New York, but they're on the sunset strip. Phil Specter
thinks we're the tops, So okay. He kicks everyone out.
(06:37):
He shuts the door, stands in front of it and
just talks about all the hit records he made. He
talks about the way things used to be, about echo Chambers,
about songwriting producer Tina, this Righteous Brothers. That he talked
about us, about Blondie. He was obviously interested in us,
interested in the sixties girl group throwbacks from our first record. Well,
(07:03):
he was interested in me. I'm sure of that. I've
seen that look a million times before. The thousand yards
stare of a man who thinks you're the one thing
when you're clearly not Chris or Clem or one of
the guys would catch on and say something to funk
with him, and his half fawning, half grandfatherly attitude would
(07:23):
snap into what the hell do you think you're talking to?
He would say, and the small room would tense up.
He had two tall, twin girls with him. They stood
watch at the door to make sure no one would
get in. Every time he lost his temper, neither one
of them would flinch. Was all very strange. We hung
(07:45):
around that room for a long time, wondering if we'd
ever leave. So eventually he invited us back to his mansion,
which is right up the road from the Whiskey, up
the hill from Hollywood, heading towards the valley. We figured
that in every day that a major producer invited us
to come hang at his mansion, right, so why wouldn't
we we wind up the road. He greets us at
(08:08):
the front door, which sounds like something he rarely did.
He liked to make people wait, create spence, tension, not
us man. He had a bottle of man of Chevets
in one hand, his cold forty five in the other.
What he was thinking it probably should have turned around
right then. I mean, if that's not an ominous sign,
(08:30):
the guy's whack job colors are in full flight. Inside
the place was a meat locker. The a C was
on full blast. The place was so cold, so dark.
It's at this point I'm thinking that the whole Dracula's
Hairdresser thing ain't so far off. We talked for a while.
Phil says he wants to produce us, and every time
(08:50):
we try to say we'll think about it and make
a move for the door, he stops us. A little
bit longer. He sat down at the piano started to
bang out be My Baby and these other unette songs.
He told me to sit down on the bench next
to him, wanted me to sing with him, and for
Chris to grab his guitar and play along. He was
(09:11):
orchestrating some spontaneous jam session, but there was nothing spontaneous
about it. The gun thing happened soon after we had
moved to the couch, still engaged in this uncomfortable hang,
still being held against our will in this winking kind
of elbow nudging sort of way. Phil came up from
(09:32):
behind and stuck that forty five between my leg and
the leather of my thigh high boot. He goes bang, bang,
and then laughs. I was like, get me the fuck
out of here. The same thing happened to the Ramones.
(10:22):
You know, Johnny and Deedy told me all about it.
We didn't really know how difficult it is to work
with the guy before we stepped into it. We found out.
I guess when Phil realized he wasn't going to get
to work with Blondie, he went for the next best thing.
He put his sights on the Ramones. The boys told
me all about it. They were back in l a
(10:45):
later in seven and Phil comes to their show just
like he came to ours. He goes backstage just like
he had done with us, tells them that he thinks
of the best band in America, tells them he wants
to produce them, and he invites the group back to
the Mansion. Now, the Ramones weren't as polite and accommodating
(11:09):
as we were, which is saying a lot. So at
the Mansion, It's obvious Phil thinks of the band as
Joey Ramone and his throwaway backup players, just like he
looked at Blondie as Deborah Harry and a bunch of
random guys, know what I mean. I think his concept
of a van was very myopic. They couldn't be a
(11:32):
collective unit. They had to have a star. They had
Ronnie Specter, and the rest was filling. Joey's his boy, right,
he said, Joey's voice reminded him of Dion. Phil had
just made a record with Dion, so he got Dion
on the brain. And this makes the rest of the
Ramones real orderary and tense. They're standing around in that
(11:55):
arctic wasteland of Hollywood entitlement. The whole place is ripping
with money and history and irony. And here they are
a couple of boys from Queens in their leather jackets
and ripped blue jeans. It's just like a couple of
rubber duckies floating in a gold plated bathtub filled with
imported water, getting more and more uncomfortable by the second. Look.
(12:19):
Those of us who have been stuck in Phil Specter's
house know what I'm talking about. I honestly, Phil asked
them how well their records were selling. They had no clue.
They didn't care about that ship. So he goes to
another room, comes back with a print out from his computer,
shows them that their sales have gone down, shows them
(12:41):
that leave Home sold way less than their first record,
tells them he can get them back on top. He goes,
what's it gonna take. You want me to get you
some girls? You want me to buy you some cars?
This real l a power broker ship, you know. Let's
push the his rookie numbers up boys, and then he
(13:03):
offers them fifty grand each cash on the spot. Right there.
He picks up the receiver on the phone there in
that opulent living room and says he'll get his lawyers
to bring the cash to the house straight away, fifty
grand each. I think he had. I don't think the
(13:25):
boys knew what to do with that kind of offer. Meanwhile,
the whole time this was going on, Ded is getting
more and more annoyed that Phil is directing the majority
of his questions and keeping all his attention on Joey.
Just Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey. Joey. Joey is like
(13:45):
a fucking giant to Phil physically and artistically. I can't
really venture to guess on what he was thinking. Phil
saw a frontman, but he probably saw a god, and
he had a god standing in his living room, held captive.
He was going to give that god a lot of
cash and do with him what he wanted. You know, today,
(14:10):
your love, tomorrow, the world and all that. D d
made some tossed off comment about the whole thing, about
how bogus it was a joke, really, that dry and
snarky queen sense of humor. Phil didn't get it. Phil
was offended, Let's face it, he was always offended by
something someone said to him. The entitlement of a legend.
(14:31):
You know. Phil pulled the gun and pointed it straight
at Deed. Deed was shocked. They were all shocked, and
he started yelling at Phil. You know I would hit you, man,
but I respect you too much. That kind of thing,
and it just got crazier. Roy Carr was there. He
(14:54):
was a writer for the New Musical Express. He was
there working on a screenplay of Phil's life. Right, I
don't think the thing ever got made. So Phil hands
the gun to Roy and starts striking these kung fu poses.
He had this guy a meal, a meal farcas, this
guy who taught him martial arts and worked as one
(15:15):
of his bodyguards. Emil taught him all this Bruce Lee
macho posturing stuff. It was right up Phil's alley, right,
So he hands Roy the gun and he jumps into
this kung fu stance starts making the noises. D D
told me it was like some bird giving a mating call.
(15:37):
So d D is screaming at this point, knowing Deed,
he is probably worried that he's gonna fucking kill Phil
Specter in his mansion if the guy gets too close.
DEED is trying to hold back. His body is all
ten stup and his fists are clenched. DD is street tough, right.
This is the guy who wrote fifty three and third,
(15:58):
the guy who lived to fifty third and third. At
this point, Joey, Johnny and Tommy are in position, ready
to back up d D if they need to. And
here's this wild man, Hollywood big shot, offering them two
hundred grand in cash and then pulling a gun on
them and not letting them leave his site. Phil is
(16:21):
making more noises, waving his arms around in the air.
He does a scissor kick up in the air and
DD jumps. He's yelling at Phil that he didn't come
here to fight he came here to hang out, talk,
listen to music, and that Phil should really stop before
someone gets hurt. He wasn't the most friendly guy. I
loven't Maddy. He tried to be friends and then he
(16:43):
had just guns on them, and he wouldn't let me
out of his house for a couple of days, and
you know, and then he said, if you want to
play spinball machine, He's like, you play for a minute,
and then he said, okay, everybody to another room. And
I never met anyone like him, but no one got hurt, thankfully,
(17:05):
how they got away from Phil that night. Even Deedy
and Johnny couldn't fully remember when they told me about it.
I don't know if anyone remembers how. I certainly don't.
Who knows if Ronnie does, or Darlene or anyone who
found themselves one of his eternal late night guests freezing
(17:27):
their ass off in his ice cold fortress of solitude.
All anyone remembers is the long, agonizing time spent inside
that place, watching that man crack and splinter a little
more every time someone made a move for the door,
and then the air You remembered, the warm, expansive Los
(17:52):
Angeles air when you finally found yourself back outside with
the mansion, tear back. We'll be right back after this world, world, world.
(18:13):
We were doing the media circuit, The media circus, I
called it. In May of nine, when the Ramones finally
gave into Phil's continued advances and made a record with him.
It must have taken a bit of convincing to get
d D back in a room with him. That April,
Heart of Glass had gone platinum and hit number one.
(18:35):
Blondie was on American Bandstand and Midnight Special and The
mer Griffin Show and The Mike Douglas Show. It was
soon after that Rush show in Philadelphia. The rest of
our year was a complete one eight from that train
wrenk of a show. We opened for Rush. We tried
to open for Rush, but their fans hated us. Chris
(18:58):
gave them the middle finger from stage, and the place
went full on mutiny. It's hard enough to be an
opener as it is. Right they boot us through trash
at us. Phil flipped the bird, Clem kicked over his
drum set. We made it through one song, maybe two.
I wasn't thinking much of Phil Specter at that point.
I gotta tell you I had moved on. I saw
(19:21):
the writing on the wall that night at his place.
The writing didn't even have a chance to dry, and
I knew something was happening. The Ramons must have just
been gluttons for punishment, right, So we're doing the Circus
and Heart of Glasses breaking down doors for us. The
(19:41):
Ramons are stuck in that tiny gold Star Studios in Hollywood,
Phil's preferred locale for genius and torture. Can you imagine
stuck in that hole in the wall with him. Deedy
and Johnny didn't sugarcoat the whole experience. They told it
like it was, just like anyone would expect the Romans
(20:03):
to tell it. I remember deed saying I wanted to
work with him a hundred percent, and I was going
old for the project. He came off differently. You seemed
more positive and more able, And when I got into
the studio I found him to be like a helpless
little boy or something. You didn't know what to do,
(20:24):
and that just stifles creativity. When you just hang around
and agony and frustration and stomp your food, you know,
that doesn't bring out anything in anybody. Phil was drinking
a lot by this point. He didn't used to drink
at all, from what I've been told, But now he
was hitting the man a chef. It's heart straight from
a thermis into a plastic cup he'd sip from with
(20:45):
a straw, like only a person who thinks he's refined,
but he's really not good. And he brought in all
these other session players to be on the record. He
told the Ramans they were the spand in America. But
then who wouldn't let them be the Ramones? They would
(21:05):
be Phil's version of the Romans. Johnny nailed it when
he said, working with Phil is very difficult. I guess
he's a perfectionist. So we like to spend a lot
of time redoing things and relistening, and it's very time consuming.
I mean, rock and roll's gotta be spontaneous and done
a little faster. It was hard for the rest of them.
(21:25):
For the boys who weren't Joey. Bill had Joey saying
Ronnie's Baby, I'd love you like the band was the
second coming of the Runettes. And meanwhile the boys are
twiddling their thumbs. Marky and Deedy hit the strip and
search out its legendary seed nightlife they were like Ringo
and George lost in a sea of boredom while Paul
(21:47):
labored over Sergeant Pepper's I like beauty to be instant,
you know, not to be labored over. And I don't
like music to be a hustle. Johnny just about lost
his mind when Phil spent something like twelve hours working
on the opening chord to Rock and Roll High School,
like an entire session. Man, No, he's just too difficult
(22:10):
to work with them. It's too costly and time consuming.
And in the nineteen eighties times have changed, and most
producers from the mid sixties and haven't really grown with
those changes. There's a new modern sound and he doesn't
have it. Johnny took as much as he could reasonably take,
hours and hours listening to one chord, making everything just right,
(22:34):
just so. He finally stood up and walked for the door.
And there's Phil with his gonzo thug threats, telling him
what's going to happen if he walks out the door.
Phil his Colt forty five snug in the holster against
the side of his chest. Who the hell do you
think you're talking to? And all that macho big shop posture,
(22:56):
and Johnny just goes, what are you gonna do? Shoot me? Later,
Johnny told me he spent twelve hours sitting there listening
to that same chord over and over again. Nobody else
could hear the difference. I mean, the chord ended up
sounding okay, but twelve hours worth it really worth it.
You know, you just go crazy. We'd be as crazy
(23:17):
as him if we worked with him. But d D
d D said it best as usual, just summed up
the whole experience in the way that only d D can.
You seemed like a man walk in his last mile
doing our record. You know that grim He had been
walking that walk for a long time. Let me tell
(23:38):
you a long time. It was a long walk to
make to go from such a genius and such a
front runner and such an inventive producer to a man
stuck in the accomplishments of his past, a man who
wanted to be admired so bad he would literally hold
admiration hostage in his own house. That's a long walk.
(24:01):
I didn't want to walk beside him. I knew that
from the night he brought us back to the mansion.
Unlike the Ramons, the first time I stepped foot inside
his place was the last time I'd ever see him.
(24:41):
February four, New York City, After seven months, two dollars
and more repeated takes of the same chord than anyone
cared to remember, the Ramones released their fifth studio album,
It Costs more than three times to make than the
typical Ramons album. End of the Century, was produced by
Phil Specter, who gave the band the same hollow promises
(25:04):
he had given Leonard Cohen a few years before, the
kind of promises that only a man with ego money
in time to spare can make. This is gonna be
a hit, This is gonna change your life. Of course,
the record did neither for the Rammans. To Johnny Ramone,
the whole prolonged chapter in their career was rife with redundancies, conflict,
(25:24):
and acrimony. To Johnny, it was all Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey.
He repeated the name over and over again every time
his arm jackhammered eighth note down strokes onto his guitar. Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey.
Johnny took all his frustration, all his disappointment, all his
pain and put it into each whiplash riff. Joey Ramone
(25:45):
had been Phil Specter's pet. Phil heard his past hits
and Joey's voice the rest of them they could all
go pound sand for all. Phil cared d and Marky
didn't even know how the thing was ever finished, because
they felt like they didn't even play on most of it.
In the same month, the photo of Debbie Harry taken
by mc rock grace the cover of Penthouse Magazine inner
(26:06):
typically subversive style that ran opposite to the magazine's exploitative style.
Debbie was fully clothed in black up to her neck. Soon,
Blondie would head to l A and make their first
album outside of New York, an album that would feature
Rapture and The Tide Is High and give them the
kind of fame and success that someone like Phil Specter
would promise but as of late, failed to deliver. Johnny
(26:30):
Ramone watched End of the Century climbed at number forty
four in the US charts, where its stalled to add
Insult to Injury, Though it was technically the band's highest
peaking album on the charts. To Johnny's ears, it was
the record that sounded the least like the band. It
was watered down Ramon's Ramon's light, weak sauce. It wasn't
punk rock at all. Nothing about it was punk. It
(26:52):
was Phil Specter's version of the Ramones, just like Let
It Be had been his version of the Beatles, and
that hurt Johnny. But anyone's pain, anyone's suffering, would be
nothing but a walk down a primrose path when the
true pain hit ten months later. The pain that lay
there waiting to grip the entire world didn't matter if
(27:13):
you were Johnny Ramone or Debbie Harry. Didn't matter if
you were Rodney on the Arrow que or Roy Carr
or Dion. The pain gripped you. But it gripped Phil
Specter harder than a gripped most. It found Phil Specter
alone in his cold mansion on luck Collina Drive, found
him vulnerable and unprepared. H This evening, John Lennon arrived
(27:34):
the emergency room at Roosevelt Hospital. He was dead on
at the time of his arrival. Numerous resuscitative efforts were
made after his arrival at the hospital, including transfusions, surgical procedures,
other procedures, but in spite of the effort of many physicians,
(28:00):
and after many procedures, we were unable to restore the
life of Mr Lenna. Phil was struck dumb. He felt destroyed,
blown down to his core. He felt friendless, hitless, and
now jauntless. He didn't know if he would be able
to face the world without John. He walked slowly through
(28:21):
the long halls and wide open rooms of the law
Colina Mansion, slowly up the staircase, past the Steinway and
the Picasso, past the French Empire furniture, past the Whoopee
cushions and joke shop chattering teeth, past the Motley fusion
of high and low art. Until he reached the bedroom.
He thought of Tittenhurst Park, of Abbey Road of New York,
(28:42):
and as he closed the door and locked himself in
his bedroom, he thought about the games he had played
over the years, the games that left tragedies in their wake,
the games that left blood on the tracks. This episode
(29:07):
of Blood on the Tracks is brought to you by
twenty seven Club, a podcast that I host on musicians
who died at the age of Season two, featuring Jim Morrison,
is now available, as is season one, with twelve episodes.
Featuring Jimmy Hendrix. Subscribe to the twenty seven Club on
Apple podcast, I Heart Radio app or wherever you get
you podcast, and of course, this episode was also brought
(29:28):
to you by Disgrace Land, the award winning music and
true crime podcast also hosted by Yours Truly. Episodes on
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(29:49):
All right. This episode of Blood on the Tracks was
written by Zeth Lundi and scored in mixed by Matt Bode,
Hosted by me Jake Brennan. Additional music and score elements
by Ryan Spreaker and Henry Unette. This episode featured ruby
rose boxes that we had. Blood on the Tracks is
produced by myself for Double Elvis and partnership with I
Heart Rate. Sources for this episode are available at double
(30:12):
Elvis dot com on the Blood on the Tracks series page.
If you like it, you hear, please be sure to
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Heart Radio app, wherever you get your podcasts. And if
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Blood on the Tracks on social media leave you review there.
(30:33):
We'll pick two winners each week and announced them on
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ahead and give that a fallow, all right. As always,
you can find me blabbing about other crazy rock stars
on Disgrace, Land and seven Club, and you can talk
to me per usual on Instagram and Twitter at Disgrace
and Land Rock am H Diet Crazy
Blood on the Tracks is the production of I Heart
Radio and Double Elvis. Phil Spector was a musical genius,
one of the most successful record producers of all time.
He's now sitting behind bars, serving a nineteen years to
life sentence for murder. This is his story told by
his so called friends. This is Special Agent Paul Ramon
(00:28):
with a Federal Bureau of Investigation, working case number double
oh four DASH ten death seven four one nine case
subject as Specter Philip Harvey. This information pertains to a
period ending February four. Interview subjects Harry debrah Ann Interview
number six STAPH six six STAPs five to four DEAP
two O two Recall number six data's February two thousand five.
(00:59):
Gons were his fascination. He showed them off, waved them around.
It's tragic the way things turned out for him, because
being such a genius and such a front runner and
an inventive producer, it seems awful what happened. I honestly
wish it didn't happen. I don't wish that sort of
thing on anything. He obviously made a terrible mistake, but
(01:23):
it's not terribly surprising that he could make such a mistake.
You understand what I'm talking about. I think he had
a wild side to him of reputation. I can't really
venture to guess on what he was thinking. I think
it was sort of a game to him, and sometimes
games turn out badly. The kind of game he played
(01:45):
was the kind of left tragedies in their wake, the
kind at leaves blood on the drugs m H. Chapter six,
(02:17):
Phil Specter and Debbie Harry. I'm not saying the guy
wasn't a genius, because obviously he was listened to his records.
The genius is there. It was what he perceived to
(02:39):
be the size and scope of his own genius that
was the problem. He thought he was the second coming
of Wagner and that everyone should step aside make way
for Wagner Jr. But more often than not, the man
was nothing more than a vindictive, petty thug. The pettiest thugs,
(03:00):
of course, the thug who hides behind bigger thugs, guys
like George Brand, the guys who would follow him around
and flank him at the restaurant the studio, arms crossed
against their chest, Phil and George would pull guns from
their holsters and compare them like some big dick contest.
(03:20):
But you know, the motivation behind some overcompensating handgun jive
is anything but big. If you know what I'm saying.
Someone told me he even brought his thugs to his
tenure high school reunion. Can you imagine everyone else shows
up with their wife for their husband a date at least,
(03:40):
and here comes the second Coming of Wagner, walking tandem
with some mute muscle head less of Wagner incarnate than
he was. The helicopter and Apocalypse now blaring Wagner at
full blast him. He just humiliated everyone in his path.
It was his revenge on a world that had humiliated him.
(04:03):
That cologne he wore, that Caesar cologne, I think it was.
He just swam in this stuff. It was like fucking
napalm to the rest of us. I was used to it.
I was used to this particular strain of Caesar drenched
male ego. My whole stage persona and Blondie was that
of a woman from a man's point of view. After all,
(04:24):
I lived in that world. I was surrounded by guys
in Blondie and guys in every other band in New
York City. Tina was the only exception to that rule.
I'd heard everything been asked, everything been told, everything been
sized up, belittled, propositioned, humiliated. But I'd never had a
gun pulled on me before. When you feel a forty
(04:47):
five pressed into the worn leather of your thigh high boot,
you know it's a forty five. Doesn't matter if you've
never felt it before, you just know. All the warning
signs were there. Our His reputation preceded him, of course,
just like his Caesar cologne. We had heard all the stories,
(05:10):
and then he was there in our dressing room. Blundie
had made the jump from New York to l A.
It was like cheap trick playing Buddhican. They loved us
in l A in a way that New York could
never love us. We did a week's residency at the Whiskey.
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers opened, and then we did
a second week with the Ramones. The crowds po God
(05:31):
and Body slammed. The room was electric night after night.
We were upstairs in one of those cramped dressing rooms
after one of the shows with the Ramones. You think
New York dressing rooms are small. Joey was hunched over
and Phil walks in. He's in a long black cape,
(05:54):
black shirt, black tie, black sunglasses, beard and big hair,
a big cross hung from a chain around his neck.
He looks like Dracula's hairdresser. He has walked through centuries,
untouched by time. He's got a button on that says
in the flesh, you know, from a first record. And
(06:17):
he kicks everyone out but us. He kicks out Joe
and the boys. He's there to see us. We were
used to playing second fiddle to all the others in
New York, but they're on the sunset strip. Phil Specter
thinks we're the tops, So okay. He kicks everyone out.
(06:37):
He shuts the door, stands in front of it and
just talks about all the hit records he made. He
talks about the way things used to be, about echo Chambers,
about songwriting producer Tina, this Righteous Brothers. That he talked
about us, about Blondie. He was obviously interested in us,
interested in the sixties girl group throwbacks from our first record. Well,
(07:03):
he was interested in me. I'm sure of that. I've
seen that look a million times before. The thousand yards
stare of a man who thinks you're the one thing
when you're clearly not Chris or Clem or one of
the guys would catch on and say something to funk
with him, and his half fawning, half grandfatherly attitude would
(07:23):
snap into what the hell do you think you're talking to?
He would say, and the small room would tense up.
He had two tall, twin girls with him. They stood
watch at the door to make sure no one would
get in. Every time he lost his temper, neither one
of them would flinch. Was all very strange. We hung
(07:45):
around that room for a long time, wondering if we'd
ever leave. So eventually he invited us back to his mansion,
which is right up the road from the Whiskey, up
the hill from Hollywood, heading towards the valley. We figured
that in every day that a major producer invited us
to come hang at his mansion, right, so why wouldn't
we we wind up the road. He greets us at
(08:08):
the front door, which sounds like something he rarely did.
He liked to make people wait, create spence, tension, not
us man. He had a bottle of man of Chevets
in one hand, his cold forty five in the other.
What he was thinking it probably should have turned around
right then. I mean, if that's not an ominous sign,
(08:30):
the guy's whack job colors are in full flight. Inside
the place was a meat locker. The a C was
on full blast. The place was so cold, so dark.
It's at this point I'm thinking that the whole Dracula's
Hairdresser thing ain't so far off. We talked for a while.
Phil says he wants to produce us, and every time
(08:50):
we try to say we'll think about it and make
a move for the door, he stops us. A little
bit longer. He sat down at the piano started to
bang out be My Baby and these other unette songs.
He told me to sit down on the bench next
to him, wanted me to sing with him, and for
Chris to grab his guitar and play along. He was
(09:11):
orchestrating some spontaneous jam session, but there was nothing spontaneous
about it. The gun thing happened soon after we had
moved to the couch, still engaged in this uncomfortable hang,
still being held against our will in this winking kind
of elbow nudging sort of way. Phil came up from
(09:32):
behind and stuck that forty five between my leg and
the leather of my thigh high boot. He goes bang, bang,
and then laughs. I was like, get me the fuck
out of here. The same thing happened to the Ramones.
(10:22):
You know, Johnny and Deedy told me all about it.
We didn't really know how difficult it is to work
with the guy before we stepped into it. We found out.
I guess when Phil realized he wasn't going to get
to work with Blondie, he went for the next best thing.
He put his sights on the Ramones. The boys told
me all about it. They were back in l a
(10:45):
later in seven and Phil comes to their show just
like he came to ours. He goes backstage just like
he had done with us, tells them that he thinks
of the best band in America, tells them he wants
to produce them, and he invites the group back to
the Mansion. Now, the Ramones weren't as polite and accommodating
(11:09):
as we were, which is saying a lot. So at
the Mansion, It's obvious Phil thinks of the band as
Joey Ramone and his throwaway backup players, just like he
looked at Blondie as Deborah Harry and a bunch of
random guys, know what I mean. I think his concept
of a van was very myopic. They couldn't be a
(11:32):
collective unit. They had to have a star. They had
Ronnie Specter, and the rest was filling. Joey's his boy, right,
he said, Joey's voice reminded him of Dion. Phil had
just made a record with Dion, so he got Dion
on the brain. And this makes the rest of the
Ramones real orderary and tense. They're standing around in that
(11:55):
arctic wasteland of Hollywood entitlement. The whole place is ripping
with money and history and irony. And here they are
a couple of boys from Queens in their leather jackets
and ripped blue jeans. It's just like a couple of
rubber duckies floating in a gold plated bathtub filled with
imported water, getting more and more uncomfortable by the second. Look.
(12:19):
Those of us who have been stuck in Phil Specter's
house know what I'm talking about. I honestly, Phil asked
them how well their records were selling. They had no clue.
They didn't care about that ship. So he goes to
another room, comes back with a print out from his computer,
shows them that their sales have gone down, shows them
(12:41):
that leave Home sold way less than their first record,
tells them he can get them back on top. He goes,
what's it gonna take. You want me to get you
some girls? You want me to buy you some cars?
This real l a power broker ship, you know. Let's
push the his rookie numbers up boys, and then he
(13:03):
offers them fifty grand each cash on the spot. Right there.
He picks up the receiver on the phone there in
that opulent living room and says he'll get his lawyers
to bring the cash to the house straight away, fifty
grand each. I think he had. I don't think the
(13:25):
boys knew what to do with that kind of offer. Meanwhile,
the whole time this was going on, Ded is getting
more and more annoyed that Phil is directing the majority
of his questions and keeping all his attention on Joey.
Just Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey. Joey. Joey is like
(13:45):
a fucking giant to Phil physically and artistically. I can't
really venture to guess on what he was thinking. Phil
saw a frontman, but he probably saw a god, and
he had a god standing in his living room, held captive.
He was going to give that god a lot of
cash and do with him what he wanted. You know, today,
(14:10):
your love, tomorrow, the world and all that. D d
made some tossed off comment about the whole thing, about
how bogus it was a joke, really, that dry and
snarky queen sense of humor. Phil didn't get it. Phil
was offended, Let's face it, he was always offended by
something someone said to him. The entitlement of a legend.
(14:31):
You know. Phil pulled the gun and pointed it straight
at Deed. Deed was shocked. They were all shocked, and
he started yelling at Phil. You know I would hit you, man,
but I respect you too much. That kind of thing,
and it just got crazier. Roy Carr was there. He
(14:54):
was a writer for the New Musical Express. He was
there working on a screenplay of Phil's life. Right, I
don't think the thing ever got made. So Phil hands
the gun to Roy and starts striking these kung fu poses.
He had this guy a meal, a meal farcas, this
guy who taught him martial arts and worked as one
(15:15):
of his bodyguards. Emil taught him all this Bruce Lee
macho posturing stuff. It was right up Phil's alley, right,
So he hands Roy the gun and he jumps into
this kung fu stance starts making the noises. D D
told me it was like some bird giving a mating call.
(15:37):
So d D is screaming at this point, knowing Deed,
he is probably worried that he's gonna fucking kill Phil
Specter in his mansion if the guy gets too close.
DEED is trying to hold back. His body is all
ten stup and his fists are clenched. DD is street tough, right.
This is the guy who wrote fifty three and third,
(15:58):
the guy who lived to fifty third and third. At
this point, Joey, Johnny and Tommy are in position, ready
to back up d D if they need to. And
here's this wild man, Hollywood big shot, offering them two
hundred grand in cash and then pulling a gun on
them and not letting them leave his site. Phil is
(16:21):
making more noises, waving his arms around in the air.
He does a scissor kick up in the air and
DD jumps. He's yelling at Phil that he didn't come
here to fight he came here to hang out, talk,
listen to music, and that Phil should really stop before
someone gets hurt. He wasn't the most friendly guy. I
loven't Maddy. He tried to be friends and then he
(16:43):
had just guns on them, and he wouldn't let me
out of his house for a couple of days, and
you know, and then he said, if you want to
play spinball machine, He's like, you play for a minute,
and then he said, okay, everybody to another room. And
I never met anyone like him, but no one got hurt, thankfully,
(17:05):
how they got away from Phil that night. Even Deedy
and Johnny couldn't fully remember when they told me about it.
I don't know if anyone remembers how. I certainly don't.
Who knows if Ronnie does, or Darlene or anyone who
found themselves one of his eternal late night guests freezing
(17:27):
their ass off in his ice cold fortress of solitude.
All anyone remembers is the long, agonizing time spent inside
that place, watching that man crack and splinter a little
more every time someone made a move for the door,
and then the air You remembered, the warm, expansive Los
(17:52):
Angeles air when you finally found yourself back outside with
the mansion, tear back. We'll be right back after this world, world, world.
(18:13):
We were doing the media circuit, The media circus, I
called it. In May of nine, when the Ramones finally
gave into Phil's continued advances and made a record with him.
It must have taken a bit of convincing to get
d D back in a room with him. That April,
Heart of Glass had gone platinum and hit number one.
(18:35):
Blondie was on American Bandstand and Midnight Special and The
mer Griffin Show and The Mike Douglas Show. It was
soon after that Rush show in Philadelphia. The rest of
our year was a complete one eight from that train
wrenk of a show. We opened for Rush. We tried
to open for Rush, but their fans hated us. Chris
(18:58):
gave them the middle finger from stage, and the place
went full on mutiny. It's hard enough to be an
opener as it is. Right they boot us through trash
at us. Phil flipped the bird, Clem kicked over his
drum set. We made it through one song, maybe two.
I wasn't thinking much of Phil Specter at that point.
I gotta tell you I had moved on. I saw
(19:21):
the writing on the wall that night at his place.
The writing didn't even have a chance to dry, and
I knew something was happening. The Ramons must have just
been gluttons for punishment, right, So we're doing the Circus
and Heart of Glasses breaking down doors for us. The
(19:41):
Ramons are stuck in that tiny gold Star Studios in Hollywood,
Phil's preferred locale for genius and torture. Can you imagine
stuck in that hole in the wall with him. Deedy
and Johnny didn't sugarcoat the whole experience. They told it
like it was, just like anyone would expect the Romans
(20:03):
to tell it. I remember deed saying I wanted to
work with him a hundred percent, and I was going
old for the project. He came off differently. You seemed
more positive and more able, And when I got into
the studio I found him to be like a helpless
little boy or something. You didn't know what to do,
(20:24):
and that just stifles creativity. When you just hang around
and agony and frustration and stomp your food, you know,
that doesn't bring out anything in anybody. Phil was drinking
a lot by this point. He didn't used to drink
at all, from what I've been told, But now he
was hitting the man a chef. It's heart straight from
a thermis into a plastic cup he'd sip from with
(20:45):
a straw, like only a person who thinks he's refined,
but he's really not good. And he brought in all
these other session players to be on the record. He
told the Ramans they were the spand in America. But
then who wouldn't let them be the Ramones? They would
(21:05):
be Phil's version of the Romans. Johnny nailed it when
he said, working with Phil is very difficult. I guess
he's a perfectionist. So we like to spend a lot
of time redoing things and relistening, and it's very time consuming.
I mean, rock and roll's gotta be spontaneous and done
a little faster. It was hard for the rest of them.
(21:25):
For the boys who weren't Joey. Bill had Joey saying
Ronnie's Baby, I'd love you like the band was the
second coming of the Runettes. And meanwhile the boys are
twiddling their thumbs. Marky and Deedy hit the strip and
search out its legendary seed nightlife they were like Ringo
and George lost in a sea of boredom while Paul
(21:47):
labored over Sergeant Pepper's I like beauty to be instant,
you know, not to be labored over. And I don't
like music to be a hustle. Johnny just about lost
his mind when Phil spent something like twelve hours working
on the opening chord to Rock and Roll High School,
like an entire session. Man, No, he's just too difficult
(22:10):
to work with them. It's too costly and time consuming.
And in the nineteen eighties times have changed, and most
producers from the mid sixties and haven't really grown with
those changes. There's a new modern sound and he doesn't
have it. Johnny took as much as he could reasonably take,
hours and hours listening to one chord, making everything just right,
(22:34):
just so. He finally stood up and walked for the door.
And there's Phil with his gonzo thug threats, telling him
what's going to happen if he walks out the door.
Phil his Colt forty five snug in the holster against
the side of his chest. Who the hell do you
think you're talking to? And all that macho big shop posture,
(22:56):
and Johnny just goes, what are you gonna do? Shoot me? Later,
Johnny told me he spent twelve hours sitting there listening
to that same chord over and over again. Nobody else
could hear the difference. I mean, the chord ended up
sounding okay, but twelve hours worth it really worth it.
You know, you just go crazy. We'd be as crazy
(23:17):
as him if we worked with him. But d D
d D said it best as usual, just summed up
the whole experience in the way that only d D can.
You seemed like a man walk in his last mile
doing our record. You know that grim He had been
walking that walk for a long time. Let me tell
(23:38):
you a long time. It was a long walk to
make to go from such a genius and such a
front runner and such an inventive producer to a man
stuck in the accomplishments of his past, a man who
wanted to be admired so bad he would literally hold
admiration hostage in his own house. That's a long walk.
(24:01):
I didn't want to walk beside him. I knew that
from the night he brought us back to the mansion.
Unlike the Ramons, the first time I stepped foot inside
his place was the last time I'd ever see him.
(24:41):
February four, New York City, After seven months, two dollars
and more repeated takes of the same chord than anyone
cared to remember, the Ramones released their fifth studio album,
It Costs more than three times to make than the
typical Ramons album. End of the Century, was produced by
Phil Specter, who gave the band the same hollow promises
(25:04):
he had given Leonard Cohen a few years before, the
kind of promises that only a man with ego money
in time to spare can make. This is gonna be
a hit, This is gonna change your life. Of course,
the record did neither for the Rammans. To Johnny Ramone,
the whole prolonged chapter in their career was rife with redundancies, conflict,
(25:24):
and acrimony. To Johnny, it was all Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey.
He repeated the name over and over again every time
his arm jackhammered eighth note down strokes onto his guitar. Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey.
Johnny took all his frustration, all his disappointment, all his
pain and put it into each whiplash riff. Joey Ramone
(25:45):
had been Phil Specter's pet. Phil heard his past hits
and Joey's voice the rest of them they could all
go pound sand for all. Phil cared d and Marky
didn't even know how the thing was ever finished, because
they felt like they didn't even play on most of it.
In the same month, the photo of Debbie Harry taken
by mc rock grace the cover of Penthouse Magazine inner
(26:06):
typically subversive style that ran opposite to the magazine's exploitative style.
Debbie was fully clothed in black up to her neck. Soon,
Blondie would head to l A and make their first
album outside of New York, an album that would feature
Rapture and The Tide Is High and give them the
kind of fame and success that someone like Phil Specter
would promise but as of late, failed to deliver. Johnny
(26:30):
Ramone watched End of the Century climbed at number forty
four in the US charts, where its stalled to add
Insult to Injury, Though it was technically the band's highest
peaking album on the charts. To Johnny's ears, it was
the record that sounded the least like the band. It
was watered down Ramon's Ramon's light, weak sauce. It wasn't
punk rock at all. Nothing about it was punk. It
(26:52):
was Phil Specter's version of the Ramones, just like Let
It Be had been his version of the Beatles, and
that hurt Johnny. But anyone's pain, anyone's suffering, would be
nothing but a walk down a primrose path when the
true pain hit ten months later. The pain that lay
there waiting to grip the entire world didn't matter if
(27:13):
you were Johnny Ramone or Debbie Harry. Didn't matter if
you were Rodney on the Arrow que or Roy Carr
or Dion. The pain gripped you. But it gripped Phil
Specter harder than a gripped most. It found Phil Specter
alone in his cold mansion on luck Collina Drive, found
him vulnerable and unprepared. H This evening, John Lennon arrived
(27:34):
the emergency room at Roosevelt Hospital. He was dead on
at the time of his arrival. Numerous resuscitative efforts were
made after his arrival at the hospital, including transfusions, surgical procedures,
other procedures, but in spite of the effort of many physicians,
(28:00):
and after many procedures, we were unable to restore the
life of Mr Lenna. Phil was struck dumb. He felt destroyed,
blown down to his core. He felt friendless, hitless, and
now jauntless. He didn't know if he would be able
to face the world without John. He walked slowly through
(28:21):
the long halls and wide open rooms of the law
Colina Mansion, slowly up the staircase, past the Steinway and
the Picasso, past the French Empire furniture, past the Whoopee
cushions and joke shop chattering teeth, past the Motley fusion
of high and low art. Until he reached the bedroom.
He thought of Tittenhurst Park, of Abbey Road of New York,
(28:42):
and as he closed the door and locked himself in
his bedroom, he thought about the games he had played
over the years, the games that left tragedies in their wake,
the games that left blood on the tracks. This episode
(29:07):
of Blood on the Tracks is brought to you by
twenty seven Club, a podcast that I host on musicians
who died at the age of Season two, featuring Jim Morrison,
is now available, as is season one, with twelve episodes.
Featuring Jimmy Hendrix. Subscribe to the twenty seven Club on
Apple podcast, I Heart Radio app or wherever you get
you podcast, and of course, this episode was also brought
(29:28):
to you by Disgrace Land, the award winning music and
true crime podcast also hosted by Yours Truly. Episodes on
The Rolling Stones, Jerry Lewis, Cardi b, The Grateful Dead,
j Z Prince and many many more are all waiting
for you right now. Just search Disgrace Land on Apple podcast,
the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast.
(29:49):
All right. This episode of Blood on the Tracks was
written by Zeth Lundi and scored in mixed by Matt Bode,
Hosted by me Jake Brennan. Additional music and score elements
by Ryan Spreaker and Henry Unette. This episode featured ruby
rose boxes that we had. Blood on the Tracks is
produced by myself for Double Elvis and partnership with I
Heart Rate. Sources for this episode are available at double
(30:12):
Elvis dot com on the Blood on the Tracks series page.
If you like it, you hear, please be sure to
subscribe the Blood on the Tracks on Apple podcast, I
Heart Radio app, wherever you get your podcasts. And if
you'd like to win a free Blood on the Tracks
poster designed by Nike Gonzalez and leave a review for
Blood on the Tracks on Apple Podcast, you can hashtag
Blood on the Tracks on social media leave you review there.
(30:33):
We'll pick two winners each week and announced them on
the Double Elvis Instagram page that's at Double Elvis. Go
ahead and give that a fallow, all right. As always,
you can find me blabbing about other crazy rock stars
on Disgrace, Land and seven Club, and you can talk
to me per usual on Instagram and Twitter at Disgrace
and Land Rock am H Diet Crazy
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