June 4, 2025 • 37 mins
Hope dives into the question of why she's still single, with some brutally honest insights from family and a deep conversation with Meghan Keane, author of “Party of One: Be Your Own Best Life Partner.”
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why do you think I'm still single?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You can be honest, looking below and all the wrong places.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Oh, what's that one? Give me that one urban cowboy?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
You gotta look that one up.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
In too many faces, searching for something, looking for traces? Mom,
what you're dreaming of?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
You're kind of fucking nuts.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
That's so funny. Someone had to say it. Someone had
to say it.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Ever since you were like a freshman in college, you've
just never wanted a boyfriend. I feel like you've always
resisted that to help.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Dad, Why do you think I'm still single? Because you've
not found anybody as great as me yet. I don't
think you're in a mindset to settle down right.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
You are always kind of obsessed with.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
The guy you never.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
How dare you speak truth like that?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
What are the qualities you have that you think I
should be looking for in the ones I've tried?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, thank god, I don't know all the ones you've tried.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I mean, well, my family definitely has their opinions. But
I keep thinking there's some deeper reason that, despite my
years of dating and situationships, I've never really found someone.
Maybe it's because I need to first confront what singleness
(01:37):
even is. So that's what we're talking about today. I'm
hopewordered and welcome to Boysover, a space where we're learning
and unlearning all the myths we're taught about love and relationships.
(02:01):
Healing isn't linear. It's never the straight line we hope
or expect it to be. In the last episode, I
mentioned that I moved back to Tennessee for a few
months to focus on my mental health and to try
and find myself again. But when I came back to
New York in the fall, I was scared. I didn't
(02:22):
want to feel the weight of loneliness again, and I
didn't want any semblance of that same depression creeping its
way back in the only reason why I was going
back to New York at all was to host The
Boys Over Show, a live storytelling event where comedians on
stage share their experiences about love and sex and dating.
(02:44):
And that is where I met someone, a comedian, an artist.
People have said he looks like Danny DeVito to give
you an idea, someone I thought was smart and witty,
And a few weeks after that show, he asked me
on a date. He didn't quite define it to be
(03:05):
a date, but it was a sunset meeting in a park,
so I thought could be a date, could be just friends.
We ended up going home together, so I guess it
was a date, And from there it kind of turned
into a full blown situationship, which was something I swore
I would never do again. Looking back now, I never
(03:29):
should have dated this man. All of my friends were
begging me not to. He was controversial in my circles,
and I never really.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Felt fully right about it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Bless I knew I still needed to do the thing,
to be alone, to find myself by myself. This guy
was a placeholder for that, a buffer between me and loneliness,
and eventually I realized I was a placeholder for him too.
Why were we doing this to each other? Why couldn't
we both just.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Be alone when we knew that would be best for
both of us.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Last week you heard all about my why of going
Boyober to heal my relationship to relationships, to find myself
outside of male validation and romance, to rewrite generational scripts
that had been passed down again and again. This week
you're going to hear all about the how of going Boyober.
(04:33):
Since I'm on this new Boicob two point zero journey,
I figured I needed to talk to someone who really
knew how to be single, an expert. So we're talking
to Megan Kin, the creator of NPR's life Kit and
the author of the book Party of One, a deep
dive into the art of being your own best life partner.
(04:55):
And that's something I'm trying to figure out right now.
Meghan's book has really ha helped me start to unlearn
the myths we're taught about marriage and partnership and erased
the stigma of being alone. It truly feels in the
spirit of boy sober so picking her brain about the
ideas in the book seems like a perfect place to
(05:15):
start this journey.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Megan, Hi, oh, thanks for having me Hi.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Thanks so much for being here. I'm so excited to
do this.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I took a big stance against dating because I was
sort of obsessively just like always wrapped up in something,
always in a situationship or getting back with an ex
boyfriend or something like this. And in your book you
read about obsessive passions, which I resonate with.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Can you talk about that a little?
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Yeah, Obsessive passion is this idea from this professor Robert
valorand it's this idea that we can approach something with
such intense vigor that it almost feels like a compulsion.
You feel like there's a lot writing on the line
if you don't participate in that activity or that passion,
and you do so without really even thinking in a way,
(06:08):
and I totally identify with that. I was also dating
in an obsessive passion state where I took my journalist's
mindset and I was like, call up this next person,
what's the next wape? Like relentlesstal in a way that
serves me in my personal life, but it was making
me really exhausted and burned out in my personal life.
(06:28):
And the opposite side of obsessive passion is harmonious passion,
which is this idea of coming to something because you
want to. Your self worth doesn't depend on it. You
can kind of dip in and out of it if
you want, Like there's less writing on it, if you
want to date, that's great, But approaching it like it's
a numbers game, like you never know who might be
(06:50):
at this party, that kind of like go go go
is of course going to like drain you.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I was talking with a girlfriend of mine who is
going through a breakup and they were like going to
see their ex to have a conversation about it or whatever,
and they were like, maybe we'll get back together.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Maybe we won't.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
But while they were in the uber on the way
to see their ex, they were like.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Downloading hinge, like getting ready to like it again.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And it does come from this compulsive need to just
this like deep fear of just like I'm never gonna
find someone I have to replace, replace, replace.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
That is I feel like a huge thing in dating
where you're just like, even if you've only got on
three dates with this person's maybe the person that you
actually really like for the first person in six months
or something, and it feels like, Okay, this is the time.
And then they're just like, see you, actually, this is
not going to work for me. And then it feels
like you are crashing even harder than you need to
(07:45):
when the reality is okay, you can be sad, but
maybe just be sad instead of layering on shame and.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Other expectation Shame for losing something, shame for not being
good enough for somebody, shame for not like holding on
to somebody totally. And I think that kind of speaks
to like the external pressures though, that we like listen to.
You know, I have so many friends who are in
friend groups where everyone's partnered us, or your mom is
asking or your dad is asking, or we're thinking about
(08:12):
our internal clock as ladies, you know. But there are
all these pressures to like find our person, and there
are the internal voices too that make us feel that
being single is proof we're unworthy of love. So I
want you to pick something apart. Let's start with the
external voices from your research. What are the ways that
(08:33):
society values the party of two over the party of one?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Oh so many ways.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
So I would say that I thought I was above
all the external voices, like I'm thirty five, I'm a millennial,
and I was like, I don't want to be a
Disney princess, Like I know that that's not for me.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm a feminist.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I'm a feminist totally exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
I know better, but they still creep into how you
think about yourself. And like you're saying you see friend
groups and you're like, well, everyone's partnered and I'm here
and everyone's just saying, well, we're doing this, we're doing that.
Like there's all these small ways and so there's this
really interesting phrase that I came across from researcher Bello Apollo.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's called singleism.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
It's basically what these external voices are telling you about
singleness that is demeaning. And so it's basically when singles
are discriminated against, marginalized because of their single status. And
what Bella Depolo talks about is like, you see this
in really big ways, right, like our tax code, our
healthcare system, truly structural ways. In truly big structural ways,
(09:34):
as well as like if you are at a job
and you're asked to stay late because you don't have
kids or a partner, right versus someone else who has
to pick some kid up from daycare. But you also
see it in small ways where a married couple sees
a single person as a thing to be solved, right, totally,
like tell me about your day, or they treat your
dating life like entertainment. Right, They're like, tell me about
a bad date you went on recently. And it's like,
(09:55):
if you're in the thick of dating, that's the last
thing you want to tell a married couple. Y, You're like,
it's not funny. But and if you're ready to share
that's great, But that is where it's people see singles
as lonely and pathetic and sad, and so all those
kind of external messages about how we all perceive singles
(10:18):
as a culture work their way into your brain and
it makes you think that those are your thoughts too.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I want you to speak a little bit about like
the feeling of being a feminist and knowing you don't
need a man but still wanting one.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, like very real.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
How do you deal with that contradiction?
Speaker 5 (10:36):
So I wrote the book partly because I felt like
I was seeing either people who were like, I'm single,
I will always be single, I'm happiest being single, and
I'm like, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
I love that they have that figured out.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
And then you have people who are like I really
want a partner no matter what, like I have to.
I'm like, that's great. I'm a little bit more in
the middle right. And it's a cognitive dissonance. I think
that happens, and that's why it's so stressful, and probably
I'm assuming what it sounds like what you have gone
through as well, where it's like, you know, it is
totally valid and wonderful to be single, but you're also
(11:09):
human and you want connection, and why wouldn't you want
something that can be really wonderful when it is wonderful?
So I would say, like that cognitive dissonance is so
hard because it's like we're told not to want something
that is so human, to like have connection and love totally.
But the part where it gets tricky is that when
we have the romantic side of that equation, be the
(11:32):
only type.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Of love that is kind of worth getting so true.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
And for me, I was like, I have to like
bridge my head into my heart here because I knew
it was great to be single, but in my heart,
I was like I feel horrible.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, I can't feel bad.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Do you think it was the internalizing of those external
voices and expectations.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah, and then kind of running a bad story in
my head? What was the story that I was the
rebound girl? That was kind of my dating history was
like I was very very single and then I met
someone and we had this great short term relationship, but
it was really big and important to me, and then
he dumps me and goes to someone else, and then
(12:14):
you know, roughly a year later, the same kind of
pattern happened. And so then my brain goes, oh, I'm
just the girl that picks up the pieces from when
they go through the real relationship, and I'm the transitional object.
And then that's a really easy way to feel horrible.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, to make yourself feel like shit.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
So yeah, so then it's I was taking not just
the external messages, but then I was putting my own
little spin on it.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
And a beautiful depressing space.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
And it became this repetitive story I would just kind
of open up and read and convince myself of instead
of being like whoahao, Like can I actually try to
see this for what it is? Like, it's okay to
be sad, it's okay to feel frustrated, it's okay that
I feel like blindsided, But it's not my whole life story.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
My self worth is not on the line.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
I also, and those relationships didn't really think about do
our values actually align? Like we like each other, we
have good chemistry, Leave said, I love you, but like,
is this.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
More than a good hang? Like yeah, I was so worried.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I think the other thing, too, is like those external
messages make you think don't mess it up, so then
you don't want to ask these deep questions about is
this relationship actually the correct one for me.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I find myself often being with guys I do not
like justin I don't. I'm just like I'm six months
in with someone, and because I was so afraid to
be alone, I've like tricked my brain into thinking I
like them. I don't know if it's more the external
pressure for me or just the difficulty being alone.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
What I had to learn was that loneliness is really
more like a biological signal telling you you just need attention,
you need social connection.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
It's not a shameful thing.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
And I think we all then get further into a spiral,
like a loneliness like shame spiral about feeling lonely when
actually your body is just telling you something similar to
like hey, I need a drink of water and I
need or I need food.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Literally hydrate.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Yeah, it's like literally hydrate like reach out to something
like And I was like, oh, okay, I don't have
this person in my life. I'm going to like put
some real radical acceptance on that and be like, this
is what's happening right now. I don't have to like it,
but that's what's happening. Yeah, so, but how can I
plan something to give myself pleasure, something nourishing, Reach out
to someone, make a plan. Yeah, that was the quickest
(14:46):
way out of loneliness for me.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I do feel like it's something about like taking your emotions,
your thoughts, your feelings, and you can sort of do
one or two things. You can either like ruminate or
you can productively self reflect. You talk about the difference
between the two things.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, yeah, so because they're scarily similar. So having a
productive self reflection time is great. But the way it's
different than rumination is it has a real distinct end point.
You can like put it away and be like, okay,
reflection time done, Like I did my journal, I went
to therapy, or I thought about this on my walk.
I'm not consumed by it and I'm not spinning my
(15:23):
wheels about it, whereas rumination is these open ended questions
that make you spin your wheels and you don't have
a productive kind of And usually if you're going past
like what one rumination expert told me, like, if you're
only passing like the thirty minute mark, you're in deep rumination.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
We've all been there.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I'm spending all day ruminating over a crush.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
Well yeah, it's constantly well because Na, you're asking probably
big questions about like why don't they like me, why
haven't they texted me back, why haven't we actually gotten.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Together, or why have I not met anyone yet? Or whatever.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
It is like these big questions, and your brain is
really likes a complete sentence. And when you ask these
big why questions, you're your brain is being like, I
have an answer, I'll go look and tries to keep
bringing you answers and you're like, that's not it, that's
not it.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And you're also I think your brain is pulling for
me anyways, it pulls from like the most harmful situations
of my life, Like my brain is always pulling information
from trauma.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yeah. It's literally called catastrophizing.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Okay, yeah, totally. No, I'm very good at catastrophizing.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
And so, like, what is tempting to do when you
ruminate is to be like, I can figure this out.
I can get to the bottom of this.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You feel like you're investigating, you.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Feel like you're yeah, like you're Nancy Drew and you're
just gonna crack this cold case any second now. But
the reality is the way you're actually going to feel
better is to take a mental off ramp, and so
turning why questions into what questions is really helpful.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
So instead of being.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Like, why hasn't this crush like asked me out for
a third date or whatever, you'd be like, what can
I do right now that's going to make me feel better?
And like it's not actually I know it sounds like
a distraction because it is, but that mental space is
going to help you like ramp down all of the
heightened emotions, because like ruminating is physically taxing on totally,
(17:04):
and so it helps like tone down all of that
and helps you get back to a more like regulated state.
It's kind of like when you're working on like a
creative project, if you're like, I have to think about
what the opening line is of this, and you're like
at your desk, at your computer, it's hard to do that.
But if as soon as you go up and like
go to the bathroom, you're like, I have the perfect idea.
Totally giving yourself space is all you're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Like, was there one nugget that you took away?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (17:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
There's this wonderful psychologist Ethan Cross who wrote this book
called Chatter, and it's all about the self talk we have,
and he's a big fan of what's called temporal distancing.
He also is a fan of like taking a beat
to be like I'm actually gonna stop thinking about this
right now and come back to it, like time boxing
it and like putting it like I'm gonna think about
this in a week, and then when you come The
(17:49):
idea is when you come back to in a week,
you probably don't have a much heightened emotions. I have
a hard time with that one because I'm like I
am like I can like do in parallel tracks ruminating.
I can ruminate about like what I need to have
for dinner and make my grocial list and why did
this person wrong totally the same time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
So that one's harder for me.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
There's something that sounds really nice about that one, though,
because like you're not forcing yourself to let it go.
I think that's where I get really caught up is
I'm like feeling so much shame for thinking about it,
and then feeling shame for not being able to stop
thinking about it. Yeah, So telling yourself like, Okay, put
it to the side, think about it in a day,
think about it in a week. You don't have to
(18:26):
force yourself to like be over it right now, but
put it to the side and then come back to it.
I think that's a really helpful tool. I'm wondering, though,
when you were writing this book if you kind of
had this because you start you were single when you
started writing it, yes, And did you have this like
fear or feeling that you were going to be single
forever where you like, this is my path.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
So the year that I started writing the book or
thinking about the book, I remember thinking to myself, this
is a really special time in my life, and I
think I've been missing that. I didn't realize how special
this time in my life as I was on a rooftop,
like at a pool by myself, reading a book.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
It was like evening.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
It was like a really hot DC summer day, and
I was like, yeah, muggy.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yes, yeah, it's very very human.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
But I was like, this is a really special time
in my life. I think I've been discounting it. Even
there's been a lot of hurt and pain, there's also
been so much joy And I think I had to
kind of pull my head up to look around to
see a lot of the joy and growth that I
had still done. And when I started writing the book,
I was like, this isn't gonna happen. I was kind
(19:35):
of treating it like I was dating someone new. I
was like, I'm going to write the bit proposal, and
then I got a bunch of meetings. I'm like, it's
not going to actually sell. And then it did, and
I was like, and then the once I sold the
book and I started really writing it, I whoops, got
into the longest relationship of my life and we're still together.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I am obsessed with that.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Honestly, personally, I am obsessed with that because when I
I started to be like I am capital a s single,
I am capital, be boysover whatever, I swear to God,
people came out of the wood so.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Much more interested in you.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
What is that? So the same thing happened to you.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
I think it's the harmonious passion thing. You're kind of like,
I can take it or leave it. I'm going to
focus on this. And I felt really grateful that I
was writing the book while I was starting this new relationship.
I was like, Oh, this person is actually really excited
for me that I'm writing this book.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
So harmonious passion, which is the opposite of obsessive passion.
How does someone create that?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
So the good news is that harmonious passion in exploring
that just are the tenets of having a good balance life.
And it's not just putting all of your focus on
the thing that you're being obsessed with. Right, So in
this case dating, it's making sure that you have hobbies
you really like, Yeah, things that take you out of.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Your own head.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Like I feel like the times where I felt the
most down about dating, I was so self involved and
like really in my own head and I would be like,
oh my god, there's a.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Whole other world out there, totally, how about that?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Right, And getting out of yourself is one of the
easiest psychological tricks to calm your anxiety, to make you
feel a part of something better, bigger mindfulness, a lot
of emotional regulation and yeah, because I think when the
emotional regulation, emotional regulation part of it helps you see
things for what they actually are rather than this is
(21:22):
my only chance. And the deeper I got into the
book writing too, I was like, oh, I still need
all these tools, and I feel like there's a lot
of conversation about how positive change can also be very
you know, transformative and still be a huge life change.
And I was like, oh, transitioning from being a you know,
longtime single person into being in a real partnership, I
was like, oh, this is a change. Still, I was
(21:44):
really you know, I have a really wonderful partner who
supports me, so he's the best, like and I feel
really like values aligned with him.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Which is like the biggest difference with that.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I'm please God.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Well, but what I also tell people is like, this
is not like a quit dating. And then all this
and like it all came into like to focus because
everyone loves to be like, oh, of course she wrote
the book and then it happens, and I'm like, yeah,
it happened that way. But also it was just right
timing and values for me and this person to come together.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I had some feelings of contradiction when I was sort
of like seeing the praises of giving up men and
being single and this and that, but then like sort
of sneaky being like, oh I might be falling in
love with someone. Did you feel that contradiction? Did you
feel like you were kind of jumping ship?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I did, yeah, because I was like, oh, crap. People
are going to think I'm a fraud now. But the
deeper gun into my.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Book, I was like, oh, this is actually unlearning a
lot of this stuff about marriage and how traditional partnership
has looked and how we can treat single people better
is actually better for everyone totally and makes everyone a
little happier, a lot happier actually, And it's made my
boyfriend and I really intentional about how we include our
(22:55):
single friends in our life, making sure we have our
own friends, not doing every single thing together. Like he's
a little bit more introverted than I am, but there's
plenty of nights where we like look at each other,
shake hands and then.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Like go, yeah, enjoy it. Yeah, and I think yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
So it was a contradiction at first, but then I
was I had so many married people come up to
me after the book came out being like I totally
get this. I know what you're talking about. Like you know,
like I was like, oh, I'm feeling calmer. My friend
gave me some advice years ago. He was like, He's like,
you want to be with someone who grounds you and
makes you feel calmer and not actually excites your heart,
(23:32):
you know, to make that anxiousness the butterflies, and there's
a lot of talk about how the butterflies are actually
just your anxiety and your sirens going that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, Like I need to listen to that advice because
I'm always running after someone that's like giving me a
panic attack.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
And look, life is long, and if you're looking for
someone to be with long term, like having someone you
know is reliable and is going to be a calming
place for you is really invaluable.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
No, totally.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Did you feel like you were abandoning any part of
yourself when you got into a committed relationship.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Not necessarily abandoning, but it was saying goodbye to it
again a time in my life. I didn't realize how
special it was until it was over. When you're single
for so long and then you get into a relationship,
you're like, oh, I feel like I'm crossing over a line.
And now I'm like in this other kind of like club.
And I was like, I'm not a part of this.
I'm a part of this club. I wanted this, but
also I'm with you guys, I like that club.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
And so what it.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Really took was instead of feeling like, Okay, I'm going
to abandon this is to really be intentional about showing
up for friends, still not going to a boyfriend island
as people say, and just disappearing forever. Yeah, And I
was like, it's really important to me to stay intentional
about feeding the parts of my life that feel good
(24:49):
to me and not like compromising on that, but still
showing up for my partner and what he likes and
wants to do and how we come together. And that
has been a lot more of an elegant integration rather
than being like I'm completely leaving this part of my life.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I mean it's changing. Yeah, life has changed.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
But I also feel the reason my partner lakes and
loves me is because I showed up as my full self.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And there is so much less pressure on men. I
feel like sometimes the way heterosexual straight relationships work is
like we show up to each other and we expect
to complete each other. Yeah, but just showing up with
your own two feet to stand on everyone's so much
more at ease.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, because it lowers the pressure.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
I think sometimes married people can see single people as
problems to be solved because there's that's how they think
about their relationship is like if this broke up, it
would be really hard for me to try to date again.
I'd have to date a in because I have to
feel whole again. And it's like kind of a you know,
comment on themselves, I think, and how they feel. And
what I would love to see is like, if you're
(25:55):
not feeling like your full full self in a relationship,
like have the courage to leave? Now I know why.
There's plenty of reasons why that can be very hard
for people, and especially in abusive situations. I'm not saying
it's just easy to leave, but like, I think that
a lot of people stay in things longer than they
need to because they.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Think that this is it and that this is going
to complete me forever.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
It's this like false sense of safety.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
So this has been my romantic journey. Okay, obsessed, obsessively swiping,
obsessed over a situationship at all times, just like a mess,
give it up for a year, and then just recently
I fell back into a situationship of sorts with someone
I should have never been near. Okay, and now I
am on sort of my voiceover journey two point zero,
(27:00):
going into this summer ready to be single.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
But I'm like, what is your advice? How do I
do single?
Speaker 6 (27:08):
Right?
Speaker 5 (27:10):
I think you need to have a project that's not
about your dating life, right.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I think you just read me to film.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I think you do. I think you do.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
I think something about going boysover and like taking a
break from dating, is you really stop to be like
what do I actually want?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And like if you do want to date someone, that's fine, right?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I did, like totally, it's totally fine about yourself.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
It's kind of like once you It's like name entertainment
is a popular thing in psychology, So the idea being
like I know that I was pursuing this with obsessive passion. Okay,
I'm going to name that, and so now I can
tame it by approaching with harmonious passion, right, getting it
getting a different hobby, like really like having some.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Kind of like can I tell you?
Speaker 7 (27:50):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
When I first tried to give up dating and everything,
I bought a keyboard to learn piano. I bought everything
I needed to buy to learn how to knit. I
still have not done either one of those things. Well, yeah,
maybe it's time I try again.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Well, maybe it's something within community and like getting like
friends together on a regular basis, for I don't know,
a game night, something fun, book club, whatever. It is
just something creative that you can like put some like
creative energy towards. And that is always like going to
be there because dating can feel so like shaky, and
so having some kind of project that's outside of yourself
(28:25):
and outside of being fully dependent on like the whims
of someone that you're dating, is going to feel very enriching.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I think, what's your advice to someone who is single
and committed to finding value in it, but deep down
they really want to find their person.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yeah, I would say focus on making your life deeper
and wider rather than very narrow. I would say it's
totally valid to want partnership and want love, just do
not make it the sole priority of your life. I
know it feels like you're running out of time and
the clock is to felt it. But seeing that your
(29:04):
life can go two directions. There could be a path
in your life where you were maybe single for most
of your life, or a path where you're going to
meet someone very quickly and you're together, let's say the
rest of your life. Those two paths you need to
treat them as equally valid and possible and wonderful and
kind of accepting both realities as being like, how can
(29:27):
I make either one of those the best they could
possibly be.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that, because, like,
I think the truth about getting into a relationship is
that is another version of work sometimes loneliness, sometimes isolation,
sometimes disappointment. And it's so interesting that a lot of
people who are single, we are like waiting for that fix, like, oh,
if I find a person, all of this loneliness will
(29:52):
be taken away. But you get with someone, and you know,
life creeps back in. Yes, And I love this advice
of like both paths as wonderful.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, because you're.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Really not told to it.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
You're not told to accept a path of being single
like you are. You said this in the beginning. It's
like you're always trying to fix that. Don't look at
it as something that should be fixed.
Speaker 5 (30:13):
Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at
the party right now, not to be.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Okay, you know, let me hear it.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Well, No, it's true. It's like, singleness is not a
waiting room.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
You can have a wonderful, deep, beautiful life right now totally.
You can you get to make you get to make
the party. That's why I kind of called the book
party of one is because I love hosting parties and
I love being able to throw exactly the type I want.
I love being able to control like the lighting, the food,
the guest list, like what everyone's drinking.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I like being the.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Curator of it. So it's like you get to do
that with your life. I mean, when you're single, you
have so much flexibility to do.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
That totally, so like own it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, like spread your wings exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
My last question is how can someone pursue solitude that
feels good and not lonely.
Speaker 5 (30:59):
So the big difference between feeling like lonely and being
in a state of solitude is loneliness is when you're
feeling alone and having an active negative reaction to it,
like your's resistance there, whereas being alone or being in
solitude is actually a restorative state.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
It's a positive, restorative state.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
So what I tell people is if they're really struggling
with owning their alone time, their solitude is to come
up with like us. I call them solitude styles. So
a creative project. Perhaps I love movies so like, especially
during the pandemic, and I was deeply single and like
living alone that is brutal. Yeah, So me and my
dog Margot watched a lot of movies. But I was like, Okay,
(31:41):
I'm going to make like a project out of it.
I'm gonna watch a bunch of trilogies I've never seen. Yeah,
so I was just like and then it became a thing.
When I was, you know, six feet away at a
park with a friend, I could be like, I just
watched them before Trilogyah, let's talk about richual link letter films.
Like it became like a source of connection.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Also. Yeah, I also think that you can.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Use solitude to create connection, Like you can do things like,
you know, make food for your friend who's like having
a hard time, like cooking a solitude. We do all
these things that are alone anyway a lot of times,
but we don't put the shame on them, but for
for out of a reason. On like a Friday night,
if we're home alone, we're like, well, that's designated time,
designated for like social time. I should be out when
(32:22):
the reality is like maybe you had a long week
at work and you just need some time to restore.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
It's such a simple way to rebrand being alone. Yeah,
I think it's so easy to fall into this like
self judgment, self hate, like this shame spiral if you're alone.
But even right now just thinking about it as solitude,
I'm like, I've been wasting so much of my time
just feeling bad about being alone when I.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Could just think about it as solitude.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, what do you do in that space when it's
something that's meant to be empowering and recharging.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah, I would say anytime you're feeling very down or
in your head about singleness is reach out for connection.
Because I think we're talking about with rumination, it's so
easy to go so internal and believe in negative story
about yourself. But once you bring yourself out of that
and talk to your friend, see how they're doing, like
(33:19):
call your mom totally, you know.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Get it, Like read a book.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Just look for different types of connection that take you
out of yourself, and you will find relief and you'll
also realize that you're not alone. People are feeling lonely
in different parts of their life. Married people can feel
very lonely, as you mentioned, So I would say whenever
you're feeling down about yourself about singleness, I would say,
reach out, make connection your life is right in front
(33:46):
of you.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You get to live it right now.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And remember to enjoy it exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
Life can be really hard, and so when there's joy,
it is something to truly be savord. I think, so
really savor the joy as well.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Since my conversation with I've definitely changed my perspective on
being alone. Embracing solitude feels empowering and I'm committed to it.
I actually just officially ended that situationship I talked about
at the top of the episode. I'll be honest and
admit it took three times to actually end, but it's
(34:23):
really over, and I think this idea of solitude is
giving me the strength to stay alone. But I'll admit
I'm still a little scared, a little nervous, and I
feel like I need some inspiration from my friends. So
I ask the people I know who are very good
at being single, maybe even love it, to tell me
(34:46):
how they make being single the party and not the
waiting room.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
One thing I've learned to love is taking myself on
solo dinner dates to new Omakase restaurants in New York.
I really look forward to getting dressed up and experiencing
it on my own.
Speaker 8 (35:06):
Traveling by myself is awesome because I think you can
never find someone that likes exactly what you like. So
I like traveling by myself because I can create my
own itinery like that involves everything that I want to do.
Speaker 6 (35:20):
I love to sleep in my own bed alone.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
I really hate.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
Sharing a bed with anyone, and especially someone that wants
to wake me up with any with any sort of
suggestion of sex. That's not interesting to me. What is
interesting is uninterrupted sleep.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So something I love to do alone is go to
parties alone.
Speaker 9 (35:46):
It's a great opportunity to chat with you know, those
acquaintance friends and meet new people. Something I love to
do on my own as a single person is recklessly,
unabashedly drink milkshake as a lectureus intolerant person. This is
a horrible idea, and I do it with abandon.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Let's end on that some inspiration for all of us
to go out into this scary world that at times
feels like it's solely built for couples and dare to
do it all on our own, well, not all alone.
I'm gonna invest in my friends, have my support system,
But right now I am going to go sit somewhere
(36:32):
in solitude and journal. Maybe I'll go see a movie.
Maybe I'll go grab dinner. Maybe I'll do all three
all by myself, And I hope you do the same.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Talk to you next week. Boysover is a production of
iHeart Podcasts. I'm your Host, Hope Ordered.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Our supervising producer.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Is Emily Meronoff engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and
mastering by Aboo Zafar. If you liked this episode, please
tell a friend and don't forget to rate, review, and
subscribe to boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your favorite shows.
Why do you think I'm still single?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You can be honest, looking below and all the wrong places.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Oh, what's that one? Give me that one urban cowboy?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
You gotta look that one up.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
In too many faces, searching for something, looking for traces? Mom,
what you're dreaming of?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
You're kind of fucking nuts.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
That's so funny. Someone had to say it. Someone had
to say it.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Ever since you were like a freshman in college, you've
just never wanted a boyfriend. I feel like you've always
resisted that to help.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Dad, Why do you think I'm still single? Because you've
not found anybody as great as me yet. I don't
think you're in a mindset to settle down right.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
You are always kind of obsessed with.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
The guy you never.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
How dare you speak truth like that?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
What are the qualities you have that you think I
should be looking for in the ones I've tried?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, thank god, I don't know all the ones you've tried.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I mean, well, my family definitely has their opinions. But
I keep thinking there's some deeper reason that, despite my
years of dating and situationships, I've never really found someone.
Maybe it's because I need to first confront what singleness
(01:37):
even is. So that's what we're talking about today. I'm
hopewordered and welcome to Boysover, a space where we're learning
and unlearning all the myths we're taught about love and relationships.
(02:01):
Healing isn't linear. It's never the straight line we hope
or expect it to be. In the last episode, I
mentioned that I moved back to Tennessee for a few
months to focus on my mental health and to try
and find myself again. But when I came back to
New York in the fall, I was scared. I didn't
(02:22):
want to feel the weight of loneliness again, and I
didn't want any semblance of that same depression creeping its
way back in the only reason why I was going
back to New York at all was to host The
Boys Over Show, a live storytelling event where comedians on
stage share their experiences about love and sex and dating.
(02:44):
And that is where I met someone, a comedian, an artist.
People have said he looks like Danny DeVito to give
you an idea, someone I thought was smart and witty,
And a few weeks after that show, he asked me
on a date. He didn't quite define it to be
(03:05):
a date, but it was a sunset meeting in a park,
so I thought could be a date, could be just friends.
We ended up going home together, so I guess it
was a date, And from there it kind of turned
into a full blown situationship, which was something I swore
I would never do again. Looking back now, I never
(03:29):
should have dated this man. All of my friends were
begging me not to. He was controversial in my circles,
and I never really.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Felt fully right about it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Bless I knew I still needed to do the thing,
to be alone, to find myself by myself. This guy
was a placeholder for that, a buffer between me and loneliness,
and eventually I realized I was a placeholder for him too.
Why were we doing this to each other? Why couldn't
we both just.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Be alone when we knew that would be best for
both of us.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Last week you heard all about my why of going
Boyober to heal my relationship to relationships, to find myself
outside of male validation and romance, to rewrite generational scripts
that had been passed down again and again. This week
you're going to hear all about the how of going Boyober.
(04:33):
Since I'm on this new Boicob two point zero journey,
I figured I needed to talk to someone who really
knew how to be single, an expert. So we're talking
to Megan Kin, the creator of NPR's life Kit and
the author of the book Party of One, a deep
dive into the art of being your own best life partner.
(04:55):
And that's something I'm trying to figure out right now.
Meghan's book has really ha helped me start to unlearn
the myths we're taught about marriage and partnership and erased
the stigma of being alone. It truly feels in the
spirit of boy sober so picking her brain about the
ideas in the book seems like a perfect place to
(05:15):
start this journey.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Megan, Hi, oh, thanks for having me Hi.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Thanks so much for being here. I'm so excited to
do this.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I took a big stance against dating because I was
sort of obsessively just like always wrapped up in something,
always in a situationship or getting back with an ex
boyfriend or something like this. And in your book you
read about obsessive passions, which I resonate with.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Can you talk about that a little?
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Yeah, Obsessive passion is this idea from this professor Robert
valorand it's this idea that we can approach something with
such intense vigor that it almost feels like a compulsion.
You feel like there's a lot writing on the line
if you don't participate in that activity or that passion,
and you do so without really even thinking in a way,
(06:08):
and I totally identify with that. I was also dating
in an obsessive passion state where I took my journalist's
mindset and I was like, call up this next person,
what's the next wape? Like relentlesstal in a way that
serves me in my personal life, but it was making
me really exhausted and burned out in my personal life.
(06:28):
And the opposite side of obsessive passion is harmonious passion,
which is this idea of coming to something because you
want to. Your self worth doesn't depend on it. You
can kind of dip in and out of it if
you want, Like there's less writing on it, if you
want to date, that's great, But approaching it like it's
a numbers game, like you never know who might be
(06:50):
at this party, that kind of like go go go
is of course going to like drain you.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I was talking with a girlfriend of mine who is
going through a breakup and they were like going to
see their ex to have a conversation about it or whatever,
and they were like, maybe we'll get back together.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Maybe we won't.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
But while they were in the uber on the way
to see their ex, they were like.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Downloading hinge, like getting ready to like it again.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And it does come from this compulsive need to just
this like deep fear of just like I'm never gonna
find someone I have to replace, replace, replace.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
That is I feel like a huge thing in dating
where you're just like, even if you've only got on
three dates with this person's maybe the person that you
actually really like for the first person in six months
or something, and it feels like, Okay, this is the time.
And then they're just like, see you, actually, this is
not going to work for me. And then it feels
like you are crashing even harder than you need to
(07:45):
when the reality is okay, you can be sad, but
maybe just be sad instead of layering on shame and.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Other expectation Shame for losing something, shame for not being
good enough for somebody, shame for not like holding on
to somebody totally. And I think that kind of speaks
to like the external pressures though, that we like listen to.
You know, I have so many friends who are in
friend groups where everyone's partnered us, or your mom is
asking or your dad is asking, or we're thinking about
(08:12):
our internal clock as ladies, you know. But there are
all these pressures to like find our person, and there
are the internal voices too that make us feel that
being single is proof we're unworthy of love. So I
want you to pick something apart. Let's start with the
external voices from your research. What are the ways that
(08:33):
society values the party of two over the party of one?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Oh so many ways.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
So I would say that I thought I was above
all the external voices, like I'm thirty five, I'm a millennial,
and I was like, I don't want to be a
Disney princess, Like I know that that's not for me.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm a feminist.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I'm a feminist totally exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
I know better, but they still creep into how you
think about yourself. And like you're saying you see friend
groups and you're like, well, everyone's partnered and I'm here
and everyone's just saying, well, we're doing this, we're doing that.
Like there's all these small ways and so there's this
really interesting phrase that I came across from researcher Bello Apollo.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's called singleism.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
It's basically what these external voices are telling you about
singleness that is demeaning. And so it's basically when singles
are discriminated against, marginalized because of their single status. And
what Bella Depolo talks about is like, you see this
in really big ways, right, like our tax code, our
healthcare system, truly structural ways. In truly big structural ways,
(09:34):
as well as like if you are at a job
and you're asked to stay late because you don't have
kids or a partner, right versus someone else who has
to pick some kid up from daycare. But you also
see it in small ways where a married couple sees
a single person as a thing to be solved, right, totally,
like tell me about your day, or they treat your
dating life like entertainment. Right, They're like, tell me about
a bad date you went on recently. And it's like,
(09:55):
if you're in the thick of dating, that's the last
thing you want to tell a married couple. Y, You're like,
it's not funny. But and if you're ready to share
that's great, But that is where it's people see singles
as lonely and pathetic and sad, and so all those
kind of external messages about how we all perceive singles
(10:18):
as a culture work their way into your brain and
it makes you think that those are your thoughts too.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I want you to speak a little bit about like
the feeling of being a feminist and knowing you don't
need a man but still wanting one.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, like very real.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
How do you deal with that contradiction?
Speaker 5 (10:36):
So I wrote the book partly because I felt like
I was seeing either people who were like, I'm single,
I will always be single, I'm happiest being single, and
I'm like, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
I love that they have that figured out.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
And then you have people who are like I really
want a partner no matter what, like I have to.
I'm like, that's great. I'm a little bit more in
the middle right. And it's a cognitive dissonance. I think
that happens, and that's why it's so stressful, and probably
I'm assuming what it sounds like what you have gone
through as well, where it's like, you know, it is
totally valid and wonderful to be single, but you're also
(11:09):
human and you want connection, and why wouldn't you want
something that can be really wonderful when it is wonderful?
So I would say, like that cognitive dissonance is so
hard because it's like we're told not to want something
that is so human, to like have connection and love totally.
But the part where it gets tricky is that when
we have the romantic side of that equation, be the
(11:32):
only type.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Of love that is kind of worth getting so true.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
And for me, I was like, I have to like
bridge my head into my heart here because I knew
it was great to be single, but in my heart,
I was like I feel horrible.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, I can't feel bad.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Do you think it was the internalizing of those external
voices and expectations.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah, and then kind of running a bad story in
my head? What was the story that I was the
rebound girl? That was kind of my dating history was
like I was very very single and then I met
someone and we had this great short term relationship, but
it was really big and important to me, and then
he dumps me and goes to someone else, and then
(12:14):
you know, roughly a year later, the same kind of
pattern happened. And so then my brain goes, oh, I'm
just the girl that picks up the pieces from when
they go through the real relationship, and I'm the transitional object.
And then that's a really easy way to feel horrible.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, to make yourself feel like shit.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
So yeah, so then it's I was taking not just
the external messages, but then I was putting my own
little spin on it.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
And a beautiful depressing space.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
And it became this repetitive story I would just kind
of open up and read and convince myself of instead
of being like whoahao, Like can I actually try to
see this for what it is? Like, it's okay to
be sad, it's okay to feel frustrated, it's okay that
I feel like blindsided, But it's not my whole life story.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
My self worth is not on the line.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
I also, and those relationships didn't really think about do
our values actually align? Like we like each other, we
have good chemistry, Leave said, I love you, but like,
is this.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
More than a good hang? Like yeah, I was so worried.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I think the other thing, too, is like those external
messages make you think don't mess it up, so then
you don't want to ask these deep questions about is
this relationship actually the correct one for me.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I find myself often being with guys I do not
like justin I don't. I'm just like I'm six months
in with someone, and because I was so afraid to
be alone, I've like tricked my brain into thinking I
like them. I don't know if it's more the external
pressure for me or just the difficulty being alone.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
What I had to learn was that loneliness is really
more like a biological signal telling you you just need attention,
you need social connection.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
It's not a shameful thing.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
And I think we all then get further into a spiral,
like a loneliness like shame spiral about feeling lonely when
actually your body is just telling you something similar to
like hey, I need a drink of water and I
need or I need food.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Literally hydrate.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Yeah, it's like literally hydrate like reach out to something
like And I was like, oh, okay, I don't have
this person in my life. I'm going to like put
some real radical acceptance on that and be like, this
is what's happening right now. I don't have to like it,
but that's what's happening. Yeah, so, but how can I
plan something to give myself pleasure, something nourishing, Reach out
to someone, make a plan. Yeah, that was the quickest
(14:46):
way out of loneliness for me.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I do feel like it's something about like taking your emotions,
your thoughts, your feelings, and you can sort of do
one or two things. You can either like ruminate or
you can productively self reflect. You talk about the difference
between the two things.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, yeah, so because they're scarily similar. So having a
productive self reflection time is great. But the way it's
different than rumination is it has a real distinct end point.
You can like put it away and be like, okay,
reflection time done, Like I did my journal, I went
to therapy, or I thought about this on my walk.
I'm not consumed by it and I'm not spinning my
(15:23):
wheels about it, whereas rumination is these open ended questions
that make you spin your wheels and you don't have
a productive kind of And usually if you're going past
like what one rumination expert told me, like, if you're
only passing like the thirty minute mark, you're in deep rumination.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
We've all been there.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I'm spending all day ruminating over a crush.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
Well yeah, it's constantly well because Na, you're asking probably
big questions about like why don't they like me, why
haven't they texted me back, why haven't we actually gotten.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Together, or why have I not met anyone yet? Or whatever.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
It is like these big questions, and your brain is
really likes a complete sentence. And when you ask these
big why questions, you're your brain is being like, I
have an answer, I'll go look and tries to keep
bringing you answers and you're like, that's not it, that's
not it.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And you're also I think your brain is pulling for
me anyways, it pulls from like the most harmful situations
of my life, Like my brain is always pulling information
from trauma.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yeah. It's literally called catastrophizing.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Okay, yeah, totally. No, I'm very good at catastrophizing.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
And so, like, what is tempting to do when you
ruminate is to be like, I can figure this out.
I can get to the bottom of this.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You feel like you're investigating, you.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Feel like you're yeah, like you're Nancy Drew and you're
just gonna crack this cold case any second now. But
the reality is the way you're actually going to feel
better is to take a mental off ramp, and so
turning why questions into what questions is really helpful.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
So instead of being.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Like, why hasn't this crush like asked me out for
a third date or whatever, you'd be like, what can
I do right now that's going to make me feel better?
And like it's not actually I know it sounds like
a distraction because it is, but that mental space is
going to help you like ramp down all of the
heightened emotions, because like ruminating is physically taxing on totally,
(17:04):
and so it helps like tone down all of that
and helps you get back to a more like regulated state.
It's kind of like when you're working on like a
creative project, if you're like, I have to think about
what the opening line is of this, and you're like
at your desk, at your computer, it's hard to do that.
But if as soon as you go up and like
go to the bathroom, you're like, I have the perfect idea.
Totally giving yourself space is all you're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Like, was there one nugget that you took away?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (17:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
There's this wonderful psychologist Ethan Cross who wrote this book
called Chatter, and it's all about the self talk we have,
and he's a big fan of what's called temporal distancing.
He also is a fan of like taking a beat
to be like I'm actually gonna stop thinking about this
right now and come back to it, like time boxing
it and like putting it like I'm gonna think about
this in a week, and then when you come The
(17:49):
idea is when you come back to in a week,
you probably don't have a much heightened emotions. I have
a hard time with that one because I'm like I
am like I can like do in parallel tracks ruminating.
I can ruminate about like what I need to have
for dinner and make my grocial list and why did
this person wrong totally the same time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
So that one's harder for me.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
There's something that sounds really nice about that one, though,
because like you're not forcing yourself to let it go.
I think that's where I get really caught up is
I'm like feeling so much shame for thinking about it,
and then feeling shame for not being able to stop
thinking about it. Yeah, So telling yourself like, Okay, put
it to the side, think about it in a day,
think about it in a week. You don't have to
(18:26):
force yourself to like be over it right now, but
put it to the side and then come back to it.
I think that's a really helpful tool. I'm wondering, though,
when you were writing this book if you kind of
had this because you start you were single when you
started writing it, yes, And did you have this like
fear or feeling that you were going to be single
forever where you like, this is my path.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
So the year that I started writing the book or
thinking about the book, I remember thinking to myself, this
is a really special time in my life, and I
think I've been missing that. I didn't realize how special
this time in my life as I was on a rooftop,
like at a pool by myself, reading a book.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
It was like evening.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
It was like a really hot DC summer day, and
I was like, yeah, muggy.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yes, yeah, it's very very human.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
But I was like, this is a really special time
in my life. I think I've been discounting it. Even
there's been a lot of hurt and pain, there's also
been so much joy And I think I had to
kind of pull my head up to look around to
see a lot of the joy and growth that I
had still done. And when I started writing the book,
I was like, this isn't gonna happen. I was kind
(19:35):
of treating it like I was dating someone new. I
was like, I'm going to write the bit proposal, and
then I got a bunch of meetings. I'm like, it's
not going to actually sell. And then it did, and
I was like, and then the once I sold the
book and I started really writing it, I whoops, got
into the longest relationship of my life and we're still together.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I am obsessed with that.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Honestly, personally, I am obsessed with that because when I
I started to be like I am capital a s single,
I am capital, be boysover whatever, I swear to God,
people came out of the wood so.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Much more interested in you.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
What is that? So the same thing happened to you.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
I think it's the harmonious passion thing. You're kind of like,
I can take it or leave it. I'm going to
focus on this. And I felt really grateful that I
was writing the book while I was starting this new relationship.
I was like, Oh, this person is actually really excited
for me that I'm writing this book.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
So harmonious passion, which is the opposite of obsessive passion.
How does someone create that?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
So the good news is that harmonious passion in exploring
that just are the tenets of having a good balance life.
And it's not just putting all of your focus on
the thing that you're being obsessed with. Right, So in
this case dating, it's making sure that you have hobbies
you really like, Yeah, things that take you out of.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Your own head.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Like I feel like the times where I felt the
most down about dating, I was so self involved and
like really in my own head and I would be like,
oh my god, there's a.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Whole other world out there, totally, how about that?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Right, And getting out of yourself is one of the
easiest psychological tricks to calm your anxiety, to make you
feel a part of something better, bigger mindfulness, a lot
of emotional regulation and yeah, because I think when the
emotional regulation, emotional regulation part of it helps you see
things for what they actually are rather than this is
(21:22):
my only chance. And the deeper I got into the
book writing too, I was like, oh, I still need
all these tools, and I feel like there's a lot
of conversation about how positive change can also be very
you know, transformative and still be a huge life change.
And I was like, oh, transitioning from being a you know,
longtime single person into being in a real partnership, I
was like, oh, this is a change. Still, I was
(21:44):
really you know, I have a really wonderful partner who
supports me, so he's the best, like and I feel
really like values aligned with him.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Which is like the biggest difference with that.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I'm please God.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Well, but what I also tell people is like, this
is not like a quit dating. And then all this
and like it all came into like to focus because
everyone loves to be like, oh, of course she wrote
the book and then it happens, and I'm like, yeah,
it happened that way. But also it was just right
timing and values for me and this person to come together.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I had some feelings of contradiction when I was sort
of like seeing the praises of giving up men and
being single and this and that, but then like sort
of sneaky being like, oh I might be falling in
love with someone. Did you feel that contradiction? Did you
feel like you were kind of jumping ship?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I did, yeah, because I was like, oh, crap. People
are going to think I'm a fraud now. But the
deeper gun into my.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Book, I was like, oh, this is actually unlearning a
lot of this stuff about marriage and how traditional partnership
has looked and how we can treat single people better
is actually better for everyone totally and makes everyone a
little happier, a lot happier actually, And it's made my
boyfriend and I really intentional about how we include our
(22:55):
single friends in our life, making sure we have our
own friends, not doing every single thing together. Like he's
a little bit more introverted than I am, but there's
plenty of nights where we like look at each other,
shake hands and then.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Like go, yeah, enjoy it. Yeah, and I think yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
So it was a contradiction at first, but then I
was I had so many married people come up to
me after the book came out being like I totally
get this. I know what you're talking about. Like you know,
like I was like, oh, I'm feeling calmer. My friend
gave me some advice years ago. He was like, He's like,
you want to be with someone who grounds you and
makes you feel calmer and not actually excites your heart,
(23:32):
you know, to make that anxiousness the butterflies, and there's
a lot of talk about how the butterflies are actually
just your anxiety and your sirens going that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, Like I need to listen to that advice because
I'm always running after someone that's like giving me a
panic attack.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
And look, life is long, and if you're looking for
someone to be with long term, like having someone you
know is reliable and is going to be a calming
place for you is really invaluable.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
No, totally.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Did you feel like you were abandoning any part of
yourself when you got into a committed relationship.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Not necessarily abandoning, but it was saying goodbye to it
again a time in my life. I didn't realize how
special it was until it was over. When you're single
for so long and then you get into a relationship,
you're like, oh, I feel like I'm crossing over a line.
And now I'm like in this other kind of like club.
And I was like, I'm not a part of this.
I'm a part of this club. I wanted this, but
also I'm with you guys, I like that club.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
And so what it.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Really took was instead of feeling like, Okay, I'm going
to abandon this is to really be intentional about showing
up for friends, still not going to a boyfriend island
as people say, and just disappearing forever. Yeah, And I
was like, it's really important to me to stay intentional
about feeding the parts of my life that feel good
(24:49):
to me and not like compromising on that, but still
showing up for my partner and what he likes and
wants to do and how we come together. And that
has been a lot more of an elegant integration rather
than being like I'm completely leaving this part of my life.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I mean it's changing. Yeah, life has changed.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
But I also feel the reason my partner lakes and
loves me is because I showed up as my full self.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And there is so much less pressure on men. I
feel like sometimes the way heterosexual straight relationships work is
like we show up to each other and we expect
to complete each other. Yeah, but just showing up with
your own two feet to stand on everyone's so much
more at ease.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, because it lowers the pressure.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
I think sometimes married people can see single people as
problems to be solved because there's that's how they think
about their relationship is like if this broke up, it
would be really hard for me to try to date again.
I'd have to date a in because I have to
feel whole again. And it's like kind of a you know,
comment on themselves, I think, and how they feel. And
what I would love to see is like, if you're
(25:55):
not feeling like your full full self in a relationship,
like have the courage to leave? Now I know why.
There's plenty of reasons why that can be very hard
for people, and especially in abusive situations. I'm not saying
it's just easy to leave, but like, I think that
a lot of people stay in things longer than they
need to because they.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Think that this is it and that this is going
to complete me forever.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
It's this like false sense of safety.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
So this has been my romantic journey. Okay, obsessed, obsessively swiping,
obsessed over a situationship at all times, just like a mess,
give it up for a year, and then just recently
I fell back into a situationship of sorts with someone
I should have never been near. Okay, and now I
am on sort of my voiceover journey two point zero,
(27:00):
going into this summer ready to be single.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
But I'm like, what is your advice? How do I
do single?
Speaker 6 (27:08):
Right?
Speaker 5 (27:10):
I think you need to have a project that's not
about your dating life, right.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I think you just read me to film.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I think you do. I think you do.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
I think something about going boysover and like taking a
break from dating, is you really stop to be like
what do I actually want?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And like if you do want to date someone, that's fine, right?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I did, like totally, it's totally fine about yourself.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
It's kind of like once you It's like name entertainment
is a popular thing in psychology, So the idea being
like I know that I was pursuing this with obsessive passion. Okay,
I'm going to name that, and so now I can
tame it by approaching with harmonious passion, right, getting it
getting a different hobby, like really like having some.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Kind of like can I tell you?
Speaker 7 (27:50):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
When I first tried to give up dating and everything,
I bought a keyboard to learn piano. I bought everything
I needed to buy to learn how to knit. I
still have not done either one of those things. Well, yeah,
maybe it's time I try again.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Well, maybe it's something within community and like getting like
friends together on a regular basis, for I don't know,
a game night, something fun, book club, whatever. It is
just something creative that you can like put some like
creative energy towards. And that is always like going to
be there because dating can feel so like shaky, and
so having some kind of project that's outside of yourself
(28:25):
and outside of being fully dependent on like the whims
of someone that you're dating, is going to feel very enriching.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I think, what's your advice to someone who is single
and committed to finding value in it, but deep down
they really want to find their person.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yeah, I would say focus on making your life deeper
and wider rather than very narrow. I would say it's
totally valid to want partnership and want love, just do
not make it the sole priority of your life. I
know it feels like you're running out of time and
the clock is to felt it. But seeing that your
(29:04):
life can go two directions. There could be a path
in your life where you were maybe single for most
of your life, or a path where you're going to
meet someone very quickly and you're together, let's say the
rest of your life. Those two paths you need to
treat them as equally valid and possible and wonderful and
kind of accepting both realities as being like, how can
(29:27):
I make either one of those the best they could
possibly be.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that, because, like,
I think the truth about getting into a relationship is
that is another version of work sometimes loneliness, sometimes isolation,
sometimes disappointment. And it's so interesting that a lot of
people who are single, we are like waiting for that fix, like, oh,
if I find a person, all of this loneliness will
(29:52):
be taken away. But you get with someone, and you know,
life creeps back in. Yes, And I love this advice
of like both paths as wonderful.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, because you're.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Really not told to it.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
You're not told to accept a path of being single
like you are. You said this in the beginning. It's
like you're always trying to fix that. Don't look at
it as something that should be fixed.
Speaker 5 (30:13):
Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at
the party right now, not to be.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Okay, you know, let me hear it.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Well, No, it's true. It's like, singleness is not a
waiting room.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
You can have a wonderful, deep, beautiful life right now totally.
You can you get to make you get to make
the party. That's why I kind of called the book
party of one is because I love hosting parties and
I love being able to throw exactly the type I want.
I love being able to control like the lighting, the food,
the guest list, like what everyone's drinking.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I like being the.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Curator of it. So it's like you get to do
that with your life. I mean, when you're single, you
have so much flexibility to do.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
That totally, so like own it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, like spread your wings exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
My last question is how can someone pursue solitude that
feels good and not lonely.
Speaker 5 (30:59):
So the big difference between feeling like lonely and being
in a state of solitude is loneliness is when you're
feeling alone and having an active negative reaction to it,
like your's resistance there, whereas being alone or being in
solitude is actually a restorative state.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
It's a positive, restorative state.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
So what I tell people is if they're really struggling
with owning their alone time, their solitude is to come
up with like us. I call them solitude styles. So
a creative project. Perhaps I love movies so like, especially
during the pandemic, and I was deeply single and like
living alone that is brutal. Yeah, So me and my
dog Margot watched a lot of movies. But I was like, Okay,
(31:41):
I'm going to make like a project out of it.
I'm gonna watch a bunch of trilogies I've never seen. Yeah,
so I was just like and then it became a thing.
When I was, you know, six feet away at a
park with a friend, I could be like, I just
watched them before Trilogyah, let's talk about richual link letter films.
Like it became like a source of connection.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Also. Yeah, I also think that you can.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Use solitude to create connection, Like you can do things like,
you know, make food for your friend who's like having
a hard time, like cooking a solitude. We do all
these things that are alone anyway a lot of times,
but we don't put the shame on them, but for
for out of a reason. On like a Friday night,
if we're home alone, we're like, well, that's designated time,
designated for like social time. I should be out when
(32:22):
the reality is like maybe you had a long week
at work and you just need some time to restore.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
It's such a simple way to rebrand being alone. Yeah,
I think it's so easy to fall into this like
self judgment, self hate, like this shame spiral if you're alone.
But even right now just thinking about it as solitude,
I'm like, I've been wasting so much of my time
just feeling bad about being alone when I.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Could just think about it as solitude.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, what do you do in that space when it's
something that's meant to be empowering and recharging.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah, I would say anytime you're feeling very down or
in your head about singleness is reach out for connection.
Because I think we're talking about with rumination, it's so
easy to go so internal and believe in negative story
about yourself. But once you bring yourself out of that
and talk to your friend, see how they're doing, like
(33:19):
call your mom totally, you know.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Get it, Like read a book.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Just look for different types of connection that take you
out of yourself, and you will find relief and you'll
also realize that you're not alone. People are feeling lonely
in different parts of their life. Married people can feel
very lonely, as you mentioned, So I would say whenever
you're feeling down about yourself about singleness, I would say,
reach out, make connection your life is right in front
(33:46):
of you.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You get to live it right now.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And remember to enjoy it exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
Life can be really hard, and so when there's joy,
it is something to truly be savord. I think, so
really savor the joy as well.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Since my conversation with I've definitely changed my perspective on
being alone. Embracing solitude feels empowering and I'm committed to it.
I actually just officially ended that situationship I talked about
at the top of the episode. I'll be honest and
admit it took three times to actually end, but it's
(34:23):
really over, and I think this idea of solitude is
giving me the strength to stay alone. But I'll admit
I'm still a little scared, a little nervous, and I
feel like I need some inspiration from my friends. So
I ask the people I know who are very good
at being single, maybe even love it, to tell me
(34:46):
how they make being single the party and not the
waiting room.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
One thing I've learned to love is taking myself on
solo dinner dates to new Omakase restaurants in New York.
I really look forward to getting dressed up and experiencing
it on my own.
Speaker 8 (35:06):
Traveling by myself is awesome because I think you can
never find someone that likes exactly what you like. So
I like traveling by myself because I can create my
own itinery like that involves everything that I want to do.
Speaker 6 (35:20):
I love to sleep in my own bed alone.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
I really hate.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
Sharing a bed with anyone, and especially someone that wants
to wake me up with any with any sort of
suggestion of sex. That's not interesting to me. What is
interesting is uninterrupted sleep.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So something I love to do alone is go to
parties alone.
Speaker 9 (35:46):
It's a great opportunity to chat with you know, those
acquaintance friends and meet new people. Something I love to
do on my own as a single person is recklessly,
unabashedly drink milkshake as a lectureus intolerant person. This is
a horrible idea, and I do it with abandon.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Let's end on that some inspiration for all of us
to go out into this scary world that at times
feels like it's solely built for couples and dare to
do it all on our own, well, not all alone.
I'm gonna invest in my friends, have my support system,
But right now I am going to go sit somewhere
(36:32):
in solitude and journal. Maybe I'll go see a movie.
Maybe I'll go grab dinner. Maybe I'll do all three
all by myself, And I hope you do the same.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Talk to you next week. Boysover is a production of
iHeart Podcasts. I'm your Host, Hope Ordered.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Our supervising producer.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Is Emily Meronoff engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and
mastering by Aboo Zafar. If you liked this episode, please
tell a friend and don't forget to rate, review, and
subscribe to boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your favorite shows.
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