April 22, 2025 • 41 mins
Ellen Greenberg was found dead in her apartment by her live-in fiancé, Sam Goldberg.
She had been stabbed more than 20 times in the back, neck, and torso. Her death was initially ruled a homicide, but after a closed-door meeting, officials changed the ruling to suicide.
For more than 14 years, Ellen’s parents, Josh and Sandee Greenberg, have fought to overturn that decision.
Now, after settling two lawsuits, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s Office will reopen the investigation. The decision follows a sworn statement from a former pathologist admitting he was wrong to change the ruling from homicide to suicide.
The Greenberg's do not believe Ellen commits' suicide and neither does Nancy Grace. Her book, What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice is out today.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Sandee Greenberg - Ellen Greenberg's Mother, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB, GoFundMe: www.gofundme.com/f/justice-for-ellen;Facebook: #Justice For Ellen
- Benee Knauer - Author of "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"
- Guy D’Andrea - Former Prosecutor in Ellen Greenberg Case, Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan
- Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Tom Brennan - PI Consultant for Ellen Greenberg's Family
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X: @JoScottForensic
- John Luciew - Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa.[ Specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com], Author: “Kill the Story;" X: @JohnLuciew
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a bombshell book. What happened
to Ellen? The bride to be stabbed twenty times, including
in the back of the head, to the back of
the neck, to the back a horrible gash on the
(00:22):
back of her head? How could that be ruled suicide?
And why we want justice for Ellen. I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thanks you hear now it's on the floor foot, she responding,
I don't know, I can't I can't see anything. She didn't.
There's nothing broken, she believed Ellie, which she may have
slipt his blood on the on the table, her feature
of a little purple.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Regardless of what you may hear on that nine one
one call, there is no way that this young bride
to be a first grade teacher slipped and fell on
a ninth twenty times. That did not happen, And according
to many, many sleuths and many full on experts, including
(01:18):
death investigators, medical examiners, lawyers, investigators, she did not commit suicide.
Absolutely impossible. Let's learn what we can from the original
nine to one.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
One calls on the floor with blood everywhere addressed, but
please help Oh no, well, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I can tell you, so you have to calm yourself
down in order to get you somehow.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
at her right now. I can't see anything shooting, there's
nothing broken.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
She blea Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think her head everywhere, everywhere.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
She might have fallen, you know what happened.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
She may have slipped his blood on the on the table,
her pets of a little purple.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Okay, hold on for.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
On the phone.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Can't see anything straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
Jackson State University, death investigator with over one thousand death
scenes to his credit, author of Blood Beneath My Feet
on Amazon and star of hitting new series Body Bags
with Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, number one, can we just
put this out there. Ellen did not slip and fall
(02:45):
and get stabbed twenty times? Can we agree on that
right up front? There's no slip and fall in this scenario.
But what I want to ask you about, I can't
see anything that was stated. Wasn't there? What a five
inch nine sticking out of her chest? Still.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Yes, Yeah, the one pictured right here that you see,
Nancy was still in place or as we say in
pathology inside you, which, of course, when Ellen's remains were
removed from the scene, the knife was left in place
so that they could observe it. He obviously, according to him,
couldn't see it. But it's very glaring. It's even glaring
(03:23):
in scene photos as well. Nancy.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
When I say five inch, I mean five inch handle
in five inch blade. Would you agree with that, Jose Scott.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Oh, yeah, absolutely too.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Tom Brennan joining me, consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family, who
has been on the case from the very beginning today
out the definitive book, What Happened to Ellen? An American
miscarriage of justice? Tom Brennan, Isn't that correct? Isn't the
knife that was sticking out off her chest still embedded
(03:55):
in Ellen's chest as she sat upright on the kitchen
floor against the cabinets. Five inch blade, five inch handle?
Is that correct, Tom?
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yes, it is, Yes, it is. I I have a
knife that is identical to the knife that was found on.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Island, and what was happening in her life is just
so poignant. I'm going to get back into the details
of the forensics in this case, which I believe, contrary
to online critics, the forensics prove to me that this
is not a suicide. I can't say it enough. What
(04:34):
a miscarriage of justice. This is her parents, Sandy and Josh,
whom I consider to be friends at this point, have
spent the last fourteen years plus their life savings. They
just sold their home to prove their daughter did not
(04:54):
commit suicide. But forensics a side which I'm going to
go right back into. Let me go to Sandy Greenberg.
This is Ellen's mother. Sandy, thank you for being with
us on this very important day in our lives. Were
the book that we have worked so hard on to
(05:18):
force the district attorney to investigate this case as they
should have at the time she was murdered. Could you
explain to everyone why this was such a critical time
in Ellen's life, A happy time, a wonderful time that
in my mind precludes any possibility of suicide. What was
(05:39):
happening in her life there was so joyous.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
We had just sent out to save the date cards
for the wedding. Everything was in place in terms of
deposits for the location, the music, the venue, hotels. So
it seemed to me, like, you know, everything was organized,
(06:07):
and she loved her job as a teacher, but she
seemed to feel she was overwhelmed at times. And I
couldn't understand how you could be overwhelmed from first graders,
but that's what she expressed.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Well, another issue, Sandy. You know, Sandy, I've never asked you,
after all this time, what were the details of the wedding.
Where was the wedding to be held? What venue? What music?
I can't believe I've never asked you that question.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It was going to be at the Hershey Hotel, which
is a lovely setting. It and located not too far
from where we were living in Pennsylvania, and we picked
out beautiful flowers. We were splitting the band with Sam's
(07:04):
parents because they really really liked this band, and we figured, okay,
we had a wonderful wedding planner as part of the
hotel who we became friends with because she was just
so talented and capable, and we had gotten her a
(07:29):
dress that was all taken care of.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The dress, Sandy, the dress is beautiful. You missed. The
best part of the dress was the path of it.
It had a big, beautiful rose material in the back.
It was stunning. But thank you. I love the dress
too and I'm grateful. Did you guys find the dress?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Sandy in Suburban Square in Philadelphia, Priscilla something a bridal.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Shock beautiful and you know to Karen Stark joining me,
renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant. You can
find her at Karenstark dot com, Karen wi as Karen.
With that backdrop she had, was just sending out the
save of the dates. She was very clear to everyone
(08:24):
that she loved the fiance, Sam Goldberg, that he was
mister Wright. They had dated a good chunk of time.
That backdrop, to me, makes it an even more stark event.
Of course, you and I have lived through a lot
of murders. I've prosecuted a lot of murders. You've helped
(08:46):
me analyze a lot of murders, but very rarely with
such a joyous, seemingly joyous backdrop as this, which makes
the dichotomy in my mind even more In.
Speaker 7 (09:00):
A lot of ways, Nancy, this is so inconsistent with
what you would actually think of in terms of suicide,
because you would have signs that somebody was actually having
suicidal ideations. That wasn't happening with Ellen at all.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And you just.
Speaker 7 (09:17):
Heard her mother, her mother who lost her one and
only child, talk about the fact that she was not
stressed except for things from her classroom, which really working
with first graders, I can understand.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
But she didn't talk you know about Karen. Hold on
right there. Hold on just a second, Karen, because I
wanted to analyze something you heard Sandy, and Ellen's friends
have told us this as well. You know, let me
go to my co author Benet Nauer, who researched exhaustively,
tracked down witnesses, friends from way back when, all the
(09:53):
way going back to grammar school. We traveled to scenes,
we spoke to experts, We tracked down so much information
to prove Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. Benay, an
hour co author, What happened to Ellen? An American miscarriage
of justice? Benay, there was something else going on. And
(10:17):
you heard Sandy correctly allude to it that her daughter
Ellen had always been and you went all the way
back to middle school and elementary school. Friends had always
been so happy, go lucky, care free, was how many
of her friends described her. She did great in school.
She went on to get a graduate degree and landed
(10:40):
at this fantastic first grade class and an elementary school
and loved it. But suddenly she became anxious, anxious. Just before,
just before she was found dead, she asked her parents
could she move back home and quit her job? And
(11:03):
I never understood, bene if she was that worried about
the first graders that she had always loved. She didn't
want to leave, she adored them. Why not just quit
the job and stay in the apartment she shared with
her fiance. Instead she wanted to move out and that
(11:24):
I don't know what her concern was. But isn't it true, Beney,
that her mom and dad said, listen, you're anxious, go
see a therapist. And she saw a therapist, and the
therapist said, without question, this is anxiety. A lot of
people have anxiety. She is absolutely not suicidal. Didn't that happen?
(11:47):
Ben an hour?
Speaker 4 (11:48):
That absolutely happened a couple of things. It was clear,
according to her psychiatrist, that there was no suicide suicidal ideation.
But it is also true that Ellen was going through
a lot of stress and anxiety and did want to
get seemingly out of the home that she shared with
(12:11):
her fiance. She not only asked her parents if she
could go home, and they encouraged her to just finish.
Speaker 8 (12:18):
The school year.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
She also asked her cousin Debbie about living in her house.
She wanted to get away, it seemed absolutely, but she did.
She did tell her friends when they asked why she
seemed so stressed out, that there was stress about school.
It didn't seem to add up. But on the day
that she died, in her very last moments, likely she
(12:44):
spent her time calling her students' parents to make sure
the students had gotten home.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Because there was a Nor'easter.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
It was a blizzard, and she wanted to make sure
that they were safe and they had all arrived home.
She seemed to have loved her job and those children,
and so lots of things don't add up here, but
she did absolutely entertain the notion of leaving her home.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So Tom Brennan, while police did not contact those people
that last spoke to Ellen before she was found dead
by her fiance, you.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Did, yeh.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Did the parents tell you what was her frame of mind?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
Yes, they said she was fine, that she called them
an expressed concern over the kids, that in fact, she
wanted the parents to know that they were going to
have an early dismissal and that they should be there
to pick up their children.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
So she was fine, And this is within two hours
before she's found dead.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
Yes, how I learned about that was there was considerable
discussion regarding all these calls made from Ellen's phone, okay
and using a specific code, and they were What was
being said about it was she was going out of
(14:11):
her mind calling all these numbers. Well, no one ever
contacted any of those numbers. I did, and they were
all parents of the children in Ellen's class. And the
reason why she was making those calls was to contact
the parents and let them know they were going to
have an early dismissal, that they should be there to
(14:33):
pick up their children.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
So even in the minutes the hour before she's found dead,
she's perfectly fine on the phone and she's contacting the
parents of her first graders. Is that correct, Tom.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
Brennan, Yes it is, Yes it is.
Speaker 9 (14:51):
Ellen Greenberg is the first grade teacher in Philadelphia. At
twenty seven years old, She and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg
have justin out out Save the Day cards for their
upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and
school has dismissed everyone early, and on her way home,
Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's
(15:12):
home with her fiance Sam Goldberg, leaves around four forty
five pm to work out in the apartment complex Jim.
When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the
door is locked from the inside.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Oh good, Oh my god. Everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Found pack out.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Of her heart.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Today, the definitive book on the murder of Ellen Greenberg
is released. What Happened to Ellen? All proceeds going to
the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. There is
no pecuniary or money interest in writing this book. This
(16:00):
book is intended to force the local district attorney to
investigate this case after a long and painful saga her
parents have endured. What was so shocking to me is
that when Ellen's body was first taken to the medical examiner,
(16:20):
Guy DeAndrea joining me, who was a prosecutor in the
DA's office, who combed through Ellen's file and said, hey,
this is not a suicide alert. Nobody did anything. Nobody,
Isn't it true? Guy DeAndrea that. When Ellen's body was
(16:42):
taken to the medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne stated ruled
it was a homicide. Then, obviously with twenty wounds to
your back, the back of your head, the back of
your neck, even slicing the dura dua, the protective sheath
(17:02):
around one's spine sliced, yet she continued to stab herself
twenty stab wounds. It's unheard of for a suicide, that said,
isn't it true? After doctor Osborne rule this a homicide,
he had a closed door meeting with representatives from the PHILLYPD,
(17:25):
from the District Attorney's office, and within the medical Examiner's office,
and when that door was open, he went, oh, yeah,
it's a suicide. It's taken this long to get that
ruling reversed under threat of lawsuit. Finally, Osborne is now saying,
(17:46):
this is definitely not a suicide. What happened in that
closed door meeting? Why did the assistant district attorney get
immunity in this case? No one will come forward and
tell the truth.
Speaker 10 (18:00):
That's right. No one will say what happened in that meeting?
What I understood, whether it's true or not. The explanation
given to me by the medical examiner's office is that
the police convinced the medical Examiner's office that the door
was dead bolted shut and that no one could have entered,
which we now know, of course, Nancy, is not true.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
The online haters are at it again. But really, Joe Scott,
you've gone over this exhaustively, and you know, I'm going
to let in a moment, Guy DeAndre and Beney now
are and John Lucy chime in on this. But when
his feet were held to the fire, when Sandy and
Josh Greenberg sued the medical examiners and the city at
(18:45):
the eleventh hour, just before the jury was to hear
the evidence and the emmy was going to have to
take the stand until what happened. He went, Oh, you
know what, I don't think it was suicide. This has
just happened. But yet we've had no movement from the
District Attorney's office. So now the online haters can chew
(19:06):
on that the original medical examiner is saying it was
not suicide. It's not just me screaming in the wilderness.
This is wrong. It's not just Sandy her mother screaming
in the wilderness. To whoever will Listen now, the medical
examiner who examined the body says it was not suicide
(19:28):
when he was forced to. And I want you to
explain to me in words we can understand, Joe Scott.
We're not all death investigators like you. Why we know
this is not a suicide. There is a killer walking
free that killed Ellen Greenberg. How do we know that,
Joe Scott?
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Because I still hold to this day that this it's
an empirical impossibility for someone to self inflict twenty stab ones,
some of which are rather rather deep, Nancy, and some
of them directed. Particularly you notice in this rendering the
back of the neck, you've got intrusion that runs adjacent
(20:12):
to the spinal cord. You've got one that goes into
what we refer to as a cranial vault, which means
the inside of the skull. You're talking about seahbellum at
that point in Tom. And then of course you've got
the final location in the chest where the knife is
buried into the chest very deeply. What always come back to,
(20:32):
Nancy is is the fact that every time, every time
you stab yourself or cut yourself, you're having pain centers fire.
And I've only had cases of self inflicted stab ones
over the course of my career that have involved people
that are in a I don't know how else to
(20:54):
put it, they're in psychological distress, almost like having a
psychotic event, and there's no indication. And relative to this,
the most troubling thing though Nancy, relative to Ellen's case,
for me, is not the stab wounds themselves. It's the
absence of attention that was paid to all of these
(21:15):
contusions that she It's now turned out that she has
all over her body, particularly particularly those that are located
on what is referred to as the anterior aspect of
the neck. Here in this position, along her neck, you've
got what would marry up in this position, almost like
a sea clamp. You can see if you look very closely,
(21:37):
you can see kind of this hemorrhagic formation. You know,
when he did this initial autopsy, Nancy, you know what
he said, the neck was unremarkable. Well, I don't know.
I wasn't there for it, but I can look at
that damn photograph and I can tell you it's remarkable
to me.
Speaker 11 (22:02):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Scott Morgan, I want to follow up on exactly what
you're saying. I've spoken in depth, of course to Josh
and Sandy, her parents, and Josh Ellen's father has always
said that he believed that she was strangled as well,
not that the coeod cause of death was strangulation. It
(22:25):
was not. It was the stab wounds. But another doctor,
doctor Ross, consulted on this case and he found what
you're talking about, and that is bruising to the strap muscles.
He found it. You see it. Take a look. These
(22:45):
bruce marks, which are very similar to finger marks, are unrelated.
That's important, unrelated to the stab wounds. Those bruise marks
to her neck and strap muscles around her neck are
text book, text book signs of strangulation. Now if I
(23:07):
can see it, mon here, yes please?
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Yeah. So where you see that V formation which production
does a great job with these. Nancy, you take a
look at that image you mentioned how her cod is
not in asphixial related kind of death. I submit to
you that you can be choked and not killed, obviously,
but that position to me, based upon cases that I've
seen Tom and Tom again, that's a control position, so
(23:35):
that the hand, the hand of whoever perpetrated this was
holding her in place by her neck, particularly with these
injuries that you have on the front of her body,
the antier, and of course the ps of resistance is
where you have this knife that unfortunately is buried into
Ellen's chest. You know, how are you going to get
her to submit to that? And I think that one
(23:57):
of the ways you do that is controlling her by
her neck. I agree with Josh, and I agree with
this other doctor that it came up with this conclusion,
Doctor Ross.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You know, to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother, Sandy,
this is real. She could not physically have done this
to herself.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
So remarkable reliving this every time, and it only emboldens
me more. She's my daughter, but she could be unfortunately,
your daughter, your sister, your aunt, your niece. And this
is so wrong on every level. How the Philadelphia establishment,
(24:43):
the Solicitor's office have revealed themselves.
Speaker 12 (24:48):
Okay, okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do until
they get here. Okay, her chest sang, Okay, feel me
(25:08):
out by her side.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
You can't freak out.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Okay, I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off as
a zipper. She stands herself where she fell.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Night.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Oh no, her night's sticking out what is sticking out herself?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
I guess I don't know what she's telling it.
Speaker 12 (25:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Okay, well, don't tuck it.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Joining me an all star panel, and I want to
thank everyone for being with us tonight on this occasion,
the night of the release of What Happened to Ellen?
An American miscarriage of justice? Why is the book being written?
Why is the book on the stands now? Why is
the book on Amazon? Because we want this case investigated.
(25:56):
The original medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne, who wrongly rule
this a suicide after a closed door meeting with a
prosecutor that has now gotten immunity on the case. Members
from the police department who on the scene that night
said oh, yeah, looks like a suicide. Nothing's been stolen, conducted,
(26:17):
no tests whatsoever. He first ruled the case homicide, changed
it to suicide after the closed door meeting, has now
ruled it's not a suicide. Why is there no movement
on the case has become a political hot potato, even
roping in the governor of Pennsylvania, who was considered to
(26:41):
be the running mate on the Democratic presidential ticket for
vice president, who has roped him into this thing because
he has chosen to wash his hands of it and
look the other way. Well, that is not working for me, Shapiro.
You just heard the portion of the nine one one
(27:02):
call where the specter is raised for the first time
that Ellen stabbed herself or fell on a knife. Guy
DeAndrea in the District Attorney's office, who combed through the file,
waved a red flag. This is not a suicide. Why
(27:23):
wouldn't anyone listen to you, guy? Yeah, that's a great question, Nancy.
I have pushed and pushed and pushed.
Speaker 10 (27:31):
While I was there, and it was right up until
the time I was about to leave that they finally,
meaning the medical examiners, actually told me that they would
acquiesce and change the report as soon as the findings
from the independent medical examination that was done, which was
done and came back what we all knew, and so
I thought, back in twenty seventeen, Nancy, when this conversation happened,
(27:55):
that this medical examiner's findings would be changed. So it
baffles me to this day that despite them telling me
that they agreed that this was certainly not a suicide,
it was something else. Still nothing has been.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
But did nothing. Nothing physically speaking, forensically speaking, Joscott Morgan,
I just want to clarify one thing. In addition to
all of the stab wounds, including ten to the back,
the back of the neck, the back of the head,
there's a gash on her head. Ellen was right handed.
How did she what was the direction of that gash?
(28:31):
Right to left, left to right? How did that work?
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Well? The gash itself is generated by sharp force. This
is not like a blunt laceration. Okay, So it appears
to be that the knife itself sliced down through her scalp.
It appears to be that it is going from left
to right and probably from above to below. It's a
(28:59):
very deep gas. As a matter of fact, it goes
through what it's what we refer to as a full
thickness insized wound. So it goes down almost to the
level of the skull. And an odd a very odd
finding when compared to all of these other injuries that
she has over her body that were not slices or
(29:21):
insized wounds. They were stab wounds, which are completely different
but yet can be generated by the same weapon. In
my opinion, it's that knife that's in her chest potentially.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Tom Brennan joining me, who has helped Sandy and Josh
Greenberg from the get go private investigator and consultant. Tom,
I'm just thinking through all of the wounds and how
impossible it would be. Statistically, when women commit suicide, they
(29:54):
don't stab themselves period but certainly not twenty times and
then keep on stabbing. But Tom, I'm curious. I find
possibly the single most important piece of evidence to disprove
the suicide theory is that not one, but two doctors
(30:18):
state that at least one, if not more wounds were
inflicted post mortem. In other words, they didn't bleed. Her
heart was no longer pumping blood. She could not have
inflicted those wounds. Tom Brennan, That's correct.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
We had an analysis performed on each and every wound,
and that analysis came out saying that it was biomechanically
impossible for a human being to stab themselves in the
back of the neck with the force that was necessary
to cause the damage that was observed during autopsy.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Sandy Greenberg question, how do what is wrong with the
online haters? Why are they so intent on insisting that
Ellen committed suicide? I mean, they have no knowledge of
the forensic findings. They never knew Ellen. They didn't speak
(31:26):
to her friends or to you. How do you control
yourself in the face of such adversaries.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
I just look at the entire picture. I want Ellen's
name or Josh, and I would like Ellen's name clear cleared.
I don't the haters. You know, statistically, you know you
have to have.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Some of that.
Speaker 10 (31:53):
But I.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Put it in a box and I put the lid on,
and I don't let it bother me at all. I
have a mission to accomplish. And Ellen's parents are going
to stick by her till the very end, and this
is going to get cleared.
Speaker 11 (32:13):
Up crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 13 (32:26):
The settlement has reached days after doctor Marlon Osborne, who
conducted the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg as the former assistant
medical examiner with the Emmy's Office, signed a sworn verification
statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner
of death should be designated as something other than suicide.
Doctor Osborne ruled Ellen Greenberg's death the homicide when she
was found dead in the kitchen of her apartment with
(32:48):
twenty stab wounds about her head, neck, and chest. Then,
for reasons known only to him at the time change
the ruling to suicide.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
To John Lucy. Joining us are renowned journalist Live dot
Com and The Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of kill
the story, John, You've got Marlon Osborne, the medical examiner
at the time, state, this is not a suicide. We
know it's not an accident. We know it's not natural causes.
That leaves two choices undetermined and homicide basically homicide. So
(33:21):
what's the hold up? Why has it the District Attorney's
office begun the investigation?
Speaker 8 (33:28):
Well, this case has been kicked all over the place
in terms of Jurisdictionally, it was originally the Philadelphia DA's office,
then it went to the Attorney General's office because the
incoming DA had a conflict of interest. That put it
in now Governor Shapiro's lap for about four years. And
(33:49):
now it is in another county's DA's office. And they
said they've looked into it and put in advanced the case.
But what would have been really interesting if the greed
He may.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Won't advance the case, right, But what.
Speaker 8 (34:04):
Would really be interesting if this case would have gone
forward with Osborne flipping, if he could have been on
the stand. Then we know what happened in those secret
meetings with police and prosecutors. We know how much pressure
was being put on to change from homicide to suicide,
and we know a lot more about how this investigation
(34:28):
was bungled from the beginning when the police at the
scene didn't do any of that forensing testing, They didn't
hold the scene, they allowed it to be sanitized and
potential evidence lost for good exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
You mentioned that it had been sitting with Shapiro, who
has done nothing except cover for all of his cronies,
which means there has to be an independent investigation. And
I'm begging, begging the FEDS to police get involved in
this miscarriage of just speaking of Shapiro, who is that
close to the Oval office. Until Ellen Greenberg's name came up, Listen, he.
Speaker 14 (35:08):
Transferred it to the Chester County District Attorney. If memory
serves me, they looked at it for a couple of
years and they found the same determination as well. It
has to have some evidence with it, not just someone
feeling different, but certainly if there's some evidence that this
medical examiner has uncovered, I'm not familiar with that. I'm
(35:29):
no longer the age. If they have new evidence, new information,
they should share that immediately.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
There you here, Governor Shapiro just passing the ball again.
That's not his job. His job is to protect his constituents,
and that includes Josh and Sandy Greenberg. Now I want
you to hear William Trask, attorney.
Speaker 14 (35:52):
Now, the City's agreed that the current medical examiner will
reopen Ellen's case and look at the evidence of her
manner of death and come to their own.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Conclusion from our friend's WPV. I so let me understand,
Tom Brennan, what are we waiting on?
Speaker 6 (36:08):
It's okay, that's that decision came in February. It is
now the end of April. We still haven't heard a
thing from Philadelphia. Nothing. Why what's the.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Hold of I mean, Tom Brennan, can we get real?
Even if you did hear Philadelphia say okay, we're going
to look into it, do you trust them? I don't.
After all of it, we have to have an investigation.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
I have no faith in the City of Philadelphia at all. Okay,
that's why when I began this investigation, I told Sandy
and Josh they are going to have to be extremely patient.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Okay, you know what Tom Brennan before I try to
read Philadelphia or any other municipality of corruption. What I'd
like to do is to start with justice for Ellen.
If I could just get that underway, Guiding Andrea, what
do we have to do to put a fire under
their tail?
Speaker 10 (37:11):
Everything Nancy has been done so meticulously, from you to
the Greenberg's to everyone working so hard. I do not
understand to this day, what is taking so long? You
have Marlon Osborne agreeing that it is not a suicide,
which we all know because that originally he called it
(37:31):
a homicide. I don't know what else they could possibly
need to move this. What are they waiting for? I mean,
I know it's not a great answer.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
The guy, we can't go to the governor. We can't
go to the age. He was connected to the governor,
So that takes me out of Pennsylvania. How do we
get the feds to investigate? That's the only recourse?
Speaker 10 (37:56):
Guy, Yeah, The best way I think to get the
federal authorities involved is highlighting potential corruption, right because that's
what's going to give them the jurisdiction to come in
and evaluate this in terms of whether it's a cover off,
whether it's mistakes, whether it's corruption, that's what we need
them to focus on, because going all the way back
(38:17):
to twenty eleven, something went wrong many many, many many
ways along the way.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Sandy Greenberg, did you ever believe that it would come
to this, that this many years later, he would still
be fighting for justice for your daughter?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Ever in my wildest dreams did I think that there
would be any kind of corruption whatsoever. That's why we
have laws, and that's why we have law enforcement. I'd
like to follow rules, and I never was prepared.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
I wasn't prepared, but I certainly.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Am now because I'm not giving Uppin's not giving up.
And the more people see what's going on, they have
to be concerned. It's tremendous public distrust right now.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Sandy Greener joining me, Sandy, what is your message tonight?
Do the right thing? I remember, Sandy, you told me
that you believed that the authorities, if I could call them,
that we're waiting for you to either run out of
money to fight this thing, or to just go away
(39:34):
and die, and then it would be over for them.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
You told me that the truth will speak for itself,
and the truth always comes out.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
We wait as justice unfolds what happened to Ellen. An
American Miscarriage of Justice, goes on the stands and on
Amazon today. Written with the help of my co author
Beney an Hour, We have left no stone unturned. All
(40:08):
proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
We are fighting in every way that we can for
justice for Ellen and tonight American heroes. There could be
no one more heroic than Josh and Sandy Greenberg, who
(40:34):
have fought now nearly fifteen years for justice in our
American justice system, and as of tonight, they have not
gotten it. We have daughters, sisters that we want to protect.
(40:54):
They could not protect Ellen from a killer, but they
can protect her now. Please help them. Nancy Gray signing off,
goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a bombshell book. What happened
to Ellen? The bride to be stabbed twenty times, including
in the back of the head, to the back of
the neck, to the back a horrible gash on the
(00:22):
back of her head? How could that be ruled suicide?
And why we want justice for Ellen. I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thanks you hear now it's on the floor foot, she responding,
I don't know, I can't I can't see anything. She didn't.
There's nothing broken, she believed Ellie, which she may have
slipt his blood on the on the table, her feature
of a little purple.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Regardless of what you may hear on that nine one
one call, there is no way that this young bride
to be a first grade teacher slipped and fell on
a ninth twenty times. That did not happen, And according
to many, many sleuths and many full on experts, including
(01:18):
death investigators, medical examiners, lawyers, investigators, she did not commit suicide.
Absolutely impossible. Let's learn what we can from the original
nine to one.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
One calls on the floor with blood everywhere addressed, but
please help Oh no, well, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I can tell you, so you have to calm yourself
down in order to get you somehow.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
at her right now. I can't see anything shooting, there's
nothing broken.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
She blea Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think her head everywhere, everywhere.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
She might have fallen, you know what happened.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
She may have slipped his blood on the on the table,
her pets of a little purple.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Okay, hold on for.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
On the phone.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Can't see anything straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
Jackson State University, death investigator with over one thousand death
scenes to his credit, author of Blood Beneath My Feet
on Amazon and star of hitting new series Body Bags
with Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, number one, can we just
put this out there. Ellen did not slip and fall
(02:45):
and get stabbed twenty times? Can we agree on that
right up front? There's no slip and fall in this scenario.
But what I want to ask you about, I can't
see anything that was stated. Wasn't there? What a five
inch nine sticking out of her chest? Still.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Yes, Yeah, the one pictured right here that you see,
Nancy was still in place or as we say in
pathology inside you, which, of course, when Ellen's remains were
removed from the scene, the knife was left in place
so that they could observe it. He obviously, according to him,
couldn't see it. But it's very glaring. It's even glaring
(03:23):
in scene photos as well. Nancy.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
When I say five inch, I mean five inch handle
in five inch blade. Would you agree with that, Jose Scott.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Oh, yeah, absolutely too.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Tom Brennan joining me, consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family, who
has been on the case from the very beginning today
out the definitive book, What Happened to Ellen? An American
miscarriage of justice? Tom Brennan, Isn't that correct? Isn't the
knife that was sticking out off her chest still embedded
(03:55):
in Ellen's chest as she sat upright on the kitchen
floor against the cabinets. Five inch blade, five inch handle?
Is that correct, Tom?
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yes, it is, Yes, it is. I I have a
knife that is identical to the knife that was found on.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Island, and what was happening in her life is just
so poignant. I'm going to get back into the details
of the forensics in this case, which I believe, contrary
to online critics, the forensics prove to me that this
is not a suicide. I can't say it enough. What
(04:34):
a miscarriage of justice. This is her parents, Sandy and Josh,
whom I consider to be friends at this point, have
spent the last fourteen years plus their life savings. They
just sold their home to prove their daughter did not
(04:54):
commit suicide. But forensics a side which I'm going to
go right back into. Let me go to Sandy Greenberg.
This is Ellen's mother. Sandy, thank you for being with
us on this very important day in our lives. Were
the book that we have worked so hard on to
(05:18):
force the district attorney to investigate this case as they
should have at the time she was murdered. Could you
explain to everyone why this was such a critical time
in Ellen's life, A happy time, a wonderful time that
in my mind precludes any possibility of suicide. What was
(05:39):
happening in her life there was so joyous.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
We had just sent out to save the date cards
for the wedding. Everything was in place in terms of
deposits for the location, the music, the venue, hotels. So
it seemed to me, like, you know, everything was organized,
(06:07):
and she loved her job as a teacher, but she
seemed to feel she was overwhelmed at times. And I
couldn't understand how you could be overwhelmed from first graders,
but that's what she expressed.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Well, another issue, Sandy. You know, Sandy, I've never asked you,
after all this time, what were the details of the wedding.
Where was the wedding to be held? What venue? What music?
I can't believe I've never asked you that question.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It was going to be at the Hershey Hotel, which
is a lovely setting. It and located not too far
from where we were living in Pennsylvania, and we picked
out beautiful flowers. We were splitting the band with Sam's
(07:04):
parents because they really really liked this band, and we figured, okay,
we had a wonderful wedding planner as part of the
hotel who we became friends with because she was just
so talented and capable, and we had gotten her a
(07:29):
dress that was all taken care of.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The dress, Sandy, the dress is beautiful. You missed. The
best part of the dress was the path of it.
It had a big, beautiful rose material in the back.
It was stunning. But thank you. I love the dress
too and I'm grateful. Did you guys find the dress?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Sandy in Suburban Square in Philadelphia, Priscilla something a bridal.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Shock beautiful and you know to Karen Stark joining me,
renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant. You can
find her at Karenstark dot com, Karen wi as Karen.
With that backdrop she had, was just sending out the
save of the dates. She was very clear to everyone
(08:24):
that she loved the fiance, Sam Goldberg, that he was
mister Wright. They had dated a good chunk of time.
That backdrop, to me, makes it an even more stark event.
Of course, you and I have lived through a lot
of murders. I've prosecuted a lot of murders. You've helped
(08:46):
me analyze a lot of murders, but very rarely with
such a joyous, seemingly joyous backdrop as this, which makes
the dichotomy in my mind even more In.
Speaker 7 (09:00):
A lot of ways, Nancy, this is so inconsistent with
what you would actually think of in terms of suicide,
because you would have signs that somebody was actually having
suicidal ideations. That wasn't happening with Ellen at all.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And you just.
Speaker 7 (09:17):
Heard her mother, her mother who lost her one and
only child, talk about the fact that she was not
stressed except for things from her classroom, which really working
with first graders, I can understand.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
But she didn't talk you know about Karen. Hold on
right there. Hold on just a second, Karen, because I
wanted to analyze something you heard Sandy, and Ellen's friends
have told us this as well. You know, let me
go to my co author Benet Nauer, who researched exhaustively,
tracked down witnesses, friends from way back when, all the
(09:53):
way going back to grammar school. We traveled to scenes,
we spoke to experts, We tracked down so much information
to prove Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. Benay, an
hour co author, What happened to Ellen? An American miscarriage
of justice? Benay, there was something else going on. And
(10:17):
you heard Sandy correctly allude to it that her daughter
Ellen had always been and you went all the way
back to middle school and elementary school. Friends had always
been so happy, go lucky, care free, was how many
of her friends described her. She did great in school.
She went on to get a graduate degree and landed
(10:40):
at this fantastic first grade class and an elementary school
and loved it. But suddenly she became anxious, anxious. Just before,
just before she was found dead, she asked her parents
could she move back home and quit her job? And
(11:03):
I never understood, bene if she was that worried about
the first graders that she had always loved. She didn't
want to leave, she adored them. Why not just quit
the job and stay in the apartment she shared with
her fiance. Instead she wanted to move out and that
(11:24):
I don't know what her concern was. But isn't it true, Beney,
that her mom and dad said, listen, you're anxious, go
see a therapist. And she saw a therapist, and the
therapist said, without question, this is anxiety. A lot of
people have anxiety. She is absolutely not suicidal. Didn't that happen?
(11:47):
Ben an hour?
Speaker 4 (11:48):
That absolutely happened a couple of things. It was clear,
according to her psychiatrist, that there was no suicide suicidal ideation.
But it is also true that Ellen was going through
a lot of stress and anxiety and did want to
get seemingly out of the home that she shared with
(12:11):
her fiance. She not only asked her parents if she
could go home, and they encouraged her to just finish.
Speaker 8 (12:18):
The school year.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
She also asked her cousin Debbie about living in her house.
She wanted to get away, it seemed absolutely, but she did.
She did tell her friends when they asked why she
seemed so stressed out, that there was stress about school.
It didn't seem to add up. But on the day
that she died, in her very last moments, likely she
(12:44):
spent her time calling her students' parents to make sure
the students had gotten home.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Because there was a Nor'easter.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
It was a blizzard, and she wanted to make sure
that they were safe and they had all arrived home.
She seemed to have loved her job and those children,
and so lots of things don't add up here, but
she did absolutely entertain the notion of leaving her home.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So Tom Brennan, while police did not contact those people
that last spoke to Ellen before she was found dead
by her fiance, you.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Did, yeh.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Did the parents tell you what was her frame of mind?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
Yes, they said she was fine, that she called them
an expressed concern over the kids, that in fact, she
wanted the parents to know that they were going to
have an early dismissal and that they should be there
to pick up their children.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
So she was fine, And this is within two hours
before she's found dead.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
Yes, how I learned about that was there was considerable
discussion regarding all these calls made from Ellen's phone, okay
and using a specific code, and they were What was
being said about it was she was going out of
(14:11):
her mind calling all these numbers. Well, no one ever
contacted any of those numbers. I did, and they were
all parents of the children in Ellen's class. And the
reason why she was making those calls was to contact
the parents and let them know they were going to
have an early dismissal, that they should be there to
(14:33):
pick up their children.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
So even in the minutes the hour before she's found dead,
she's perfectly fine on the phone and she's contacting the
parents of her first graders. Is that correct, Tom.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
Brennan, Yes it is, Yes it is.
Speaker 9 (14:51):
Ellen Greenberg is the first grade teacher in Philadelphia. At
twenty seven years old, She and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg
have justin out out Save the Day cards for their
upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and
school has dismissed everyone early, and on her way home,
Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's
(15:12):
home with her fiance Sam Goldberg, leaves around four forty
five pm to work out in the apartment complex Jim.
When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the
door is locked from the inside.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Oh good, Oh my god. Everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Found pack out.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Of her heart.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Today, the definitive book on the murder of Ellen Greenberg
is released. What Happened to Ellen? All proceeds going to
the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. There is
no pecuniary or money interest in writing this book. This
(16:00):
book is intended to force the local district attorney to
investigate this case after a long and painful saga her
parents have endured. What was so shocking to me is
that when Ellen's body was first taken to the medical examiner,
(16:20):
Guy DeAndrea joining me, who was a prosecutor in the
DA's office, who combed through Ellen's file and said, hey,
this is not a suicide alert. Nobody did anything. Nobody,
Isn't it true? Guy DeAndrea that. When Ellen's body was
(16:42):
taken to the medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne stated ruled
it was a homicide. Then, obviously with twenty wounds to
your back, the back of your head, the back of
your neck, even slicing the dura dua, the protective sheath
(17:02):
around one's spine sliced, yet she continued to stab herself
twenty stab wounds. It's unheard of for a suicide, that said,
isn't it true? After doctor Osborne rule this a homicide,
he had a closed door meeting with representatives from the PHILLYPD,
(17:25):
from the District Attorney's office, and within the medical Examiner's office,
and when that door was open, he went, oh, yeah,
it's a suicide. It's taken this long to get that
ruling reversed under threat of lawsuit. Finally, Osborne is now saying,
(17:46):
this is definitely not a suicide. What happened in that
closed door meeting? Why did the assistant district attorney get
immunity in this case? No one will come forward and
tell the truth.
Speaker 10 (18:00):
That's right. No one will say what happened in that meeting?
What I understood, whether it's true or not. The explanation
given to me by the medical examiner's office is that
the police convinced the medical Examiner's office that the door
was dead bolted shut and that no one could have entered,
which we now know, of course, Nancy, is not true.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
The online haters are at it again. But really, Joe Scott,
you've gone over this exhaustively, and you know, I'm going
to let in a moment, Guy DeAndre and Beney now
are and John Lucy chime in on this. But when
his feet were held to the fire, when Sandy and
Josh Greenberg sued the medical examiners and the city at
(18:45):
the eleventh hour, just before the jury was to hear
the evidence and the emmy was going to have to
take the stand until what happened. He went, Oh, you
know what, I don't think it was suicide. This has
just happened. But yet we've had no movement from the
District Attorney's office. So now the online haters can chew
(19:06):
on that the original medical examiner is saying it was
not suicide. It's not just me screaming in the wilderness.
This is wrong. It's not just Sandy her mother screaming
in the wilderness. To whoever will Listen now, the medical
examiner who examined the body says it was not suicide
(19:28):
when he was forced to. And I want you to
explain to me in words we can understand, Joe Scott.
We're not all death investigators like you. Why we know
this is not a suicide. There is a killer walking
free that killed Ellen Greenberg. How do we know that,
Joe Scott?
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Because I still hold to this day that this it's
an empirical impossibility for someone to self inflict twenty stab ones,
some of which are rather rather deep, Nancy, and some
of them directed. Particularly you notice in this rendering the
back of the neck, you've got intrusion that runs adjacent
(20:12):
to the spinal cord. You've got one that goes into
what we refer to as a cranial vault, which means
the inside of the skull. You're talking about seahbellum at
that point in Tom. And then of course you've got
the final location in the chest where the knife is
buried into the chest very deeply. What always come back to,
(20:32):
Nancy is is the fact that every time, every time
you stab yourself or cut yourself, you're having pain centers fire.
And I've only had cases of self inflicted stab ones
over the course of my career that have involved people
that are in a I don't know how else to
(20:54):
put it, they're in psychological distress, almost like having a
psychotic event, and there's no indication. And relative to this,
the most troubling thing though Nancy, relative to Ellen's case,
for me, is not the stab wounds themselves. It's the
absence of attention that was paid to all of these
(21:15):
contusions that she It's now turned out that she has
all over her body, particularly particularly those that are located
on what is referred to as the anterior aspect of
the neck. Here in this position, along her neck, you've
got what would marry up in this position, almost like
a sea clamp. You can see if you look very closely,
(21:37):
you can see kind of this hemorrhagic formation. You know,
when he did this initial autopsy, Nancy, you know what
he said, the neck was unremarkable. Well, I don't know.
I wasn't there for it, but I can look at
that damn photograph and I can tell you it's remarkable
to me.
Speaker 11 (22:02):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Scott Morgan, I want to follow up on exactly what
you're saying. I've spoken in depth, of course to Josh
and Sandy, her parents, and Josh Ellen's father has always
said that he believed that she was strangled as well,
not that the coeod cause of death was strangulation. It
(22:25):
was not. It was the stab wounds. But another doctor,
doctor Ross, consulted on this case and he found what
you're talking about, and that is bruising to the strap muscles.
He found it. You see it. Take a look. These
(22:45):
bruce marks, which are very similar to finger marks, are unrelated.
That's important, unrelated to the stab wounds. Those bruise marks
to her neck and strap muscles around her neck are
text book, text book signs of strangulation. Now if I
(23:07):
can see it, mon here, yes please?
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Yeah. So where you see that V formation which production
does a great job with these. Nancy, you take a
look at that image you mentioned how her cod is
not in asphixial related kind of death. I submit to
you that you can be choked and not killed, obviously,
but that position to me, based upon cases that I've
seen Tom and Tom again, that's a control position, so
(23:35):
that the hand, the hand of whoever perpetrated this was
holding her in place by her neck, particularly with these
injuries that you have on the front of her body,
the antier, and of course the ps of resistance is
where you have this knife that unfortunately is buried into
Ellen's chest. You know, how are you going to get
her to submit to that? And I think that one
(23:57):
of the ways you do that is controlling her by
her neck. I agree with Josh, and I agree with
this other doctor that it came up with this conclusion,
Doctor Ross.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You know, to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother, Sandy,
this is real. She could not physically have done this
to herself.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
So remarkable reliving this every time, and it only emboldens
me more. She's my daughter, but she could be unfortunately,
your daughter, your sister, your aunt, your niece. And this
is so wrong on every level. How the Philadelphia establishment,
(24:43):
the Solicitor's office have revealed themselves.
Speaker 12 (24:48):
Okay, okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do until
they get here. Okay, her chest sang, Okay, feel me
(25:08):
out by her side.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
You can't freak out.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Okay, I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off as
a zipper. She stands herself where she fell.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Night.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Oh no, her night's sticking out what is sticking out herself?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
I guess I don't know what she's telling it.
Speaker 12 (25:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Okay, well, don't tuck it.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Joining me an all star panel, and I want to
thank everyone for being with us tonight on this occasion,
the night of the release of What Happened to Ellen?
An American miscarriage of justice? Why is the book being written?
Why is the book on the stands now? Why is
the book on Amazon? Because we want this case investigated.
(25:56):
The original medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne, who wrongly rule
this a suicide after a closed door meeting with a
prosecutor that has now gotten immunity on the case. Members
from the police department who on the scene that night
said oh, yeah, looks like a suicide. Nothing's been stolen, conducted,
(26:17):
no tests whatsoever. He first ruled the case homicide, changed
it to suicide after the closed door meeting, has now
ruled it's not a suicide. Why is there no movement
on the case has become a political hot potato, even
roping in the governor of Pennsylvania, who was considered to
(26:41):
be the running mate on the Democratic presidential ticket for
vice president, who has roped him into this thing because
he has chosen to wash his hands of it and
look the other way. Well, that is not working for me, Shapiro.
You just heard the portion of the nine one one
(27:02):
call where the specter is raised for the first time
that Ellen stabbed herself or fell on a knife. Guy
DeAndrea in the District Attorney's office, who combed through the file,
waved a red flag. This is not a suicide. Why
(27:23):
wouldn't anyone listen to you, guy? Yeah, that's a great question, Nancy.
I have pushed and pushed and pushed.
Speaker 10 (27:31):
While I was there, and it was right up until
the time I was about to leave that they finally,
meaning the medical examiners, actually told me that they would
acquiesce and change the report as soon as the findings
from the independent medical examination that was done, which was
done and came back what we all knew, and so
I thought, back in twenty seventeen, Nancy, when this conversation happened,
(27:55):
that this medical examiner's findings would be changed. So it
baffles me to this day that despite them telling me
that they agreed that this was certainly not a suicide,
it was something else. Still nothing has been.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
But did nothing. Nothing physically speaking, forensically speaking, Joscott Morgan,
I just want to clarify one thing. In addition to
all of the stab wounds, including ten to the back,
the back of the neck, the back of the head,
there's a gash on her head. Ellen was right handed.
How did she what was the direction of that gash?
(28:31):
Right to left, left to right? How did that work?
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Well? The gash itself is generated by sharp force. This
is not like a blunt laceration. Okay, So it appears
to be that the knife itself sliced down through her scalp.
It appears to be that it is going from left
to right and probably from above to below. It's a
(28:59):
very deep gas. As a matter of fact, it goes
through what it's what we refer to as a full
thickness insized wound. So it goes down almost to the
level of the skull. And an odd a very odd
finding when compared to all of these other injuries that
she has over her body that were not slices or
(29:21):
insized wounds. They were stab wounds, which are completely different
but yet can be generated by the same weapon. In
my opinion, it's that knife that's in her chest potentially.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Tom Brennan joining me, who has helped Sandy and Josh
Greenberg from the get go private investigator and consultant. Tom,
I'm just thinking through all of the wounds and how
impossible it would be. Statistically, when women commit suicide, they
(29:54):
don't stab themselves period but certainly not twenty times and
then keep on stabbing. But Tom, I'm curious. I find
possibly the single most important piece of evidence to disprove
the suicide theory is that not one, but two doctors
(30:18):
state that at least one, if not more wounds were
inflicted post mortem. In other words, they didn't bleed. Her
heart was no longer pumping blood. She could not have
inflicted those wounds. Tom Brennan, That's correct.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
We had an analysis performed on each and every wound,
and that analysis came out saying that it was biomechanically
impossible for a human being to stab themselves in the
back of the neck with the force that was necessary
to cause the damage that was observed during autopsy.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Sandy Greenberg question, how do what is wrong with the
online haters? Why are they so intent on insisting that
Ellen committed suicide? I mean, they have no knowledge of
the forensic findings. They never knew Ellen. They didn't speak
(31:26):
to her friends or to you. How do you control
yourself in the face of such adversaries.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
I just look at the entire picture. I want Ellen's
name or Josh, and I would like Ellen's name clear cleared.
I don't the haters. You know, statistically, you know you
have to have.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Some of that.
Speaker 10 (31:53):
But I.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Put it in a box and I put the lid on,
and I don't let it bother me at all. I
have a mission to accomplish. And Ellen's parents are going
to stick by her till the very end, and this
is going to get cleared.
Speaker 11 (32:13):
Up crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 13 (32:26):
The settlement has reached days after doctor Marlon Osborne, who
conducted the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg as the former assistant
medical examiner with the Emmy's Office, signed a sworn verification
statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner
of death should be designated as something other than suicide.
Doctor Osborne ruled Ellen Greenberg's death the homicide when she
was found dead in the kitchen of her apartment with
(32:48):
twenty stab wounds about her head, neck, and chest. Then,
for reasons known only to him at the time change
the ruling to suicide.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
To John Lucy. Joining us are renowned journalist Live dot
Com and The Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of kill
the story, John, You've got Marlon Osborne, the medical examiner
at the time, state, this is not a suicide. We
know it's not an accident. We know it's not natural causes.
That leaves two choices undetermined and homicide basically homicide. So
(33:21):
what's the hold up? Why has it the District Attorney's
office begun the investigation?
Speaker 8 (33:28):
Well, this case has been kicked all over the place
in terms of Jurisdictionally, it was originally the Philadelphia DA's office,
then it went to the Attorney General's office because the
incoming DA had a conflict of interest. That put it
in now Governor Shapiro's lap for about four years. And
(33:49):
now it is in another county's DA's office. And they
said they've looked into it and put in advanced the case.
But what would have been really interesting if the greed
He may.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Won't advance the case, right, But what.
Speaker 8 (34:04):
Would really be interesting if this case would have gone
forward with Osborne flipping, if he could have been on
the stand. Then we know what happened in those secret
meetings with police and prosecutors. We know how much pressure
was being put on to change from homicide to suicide,
and we know a lot more about how this investigation
(34:28):
was bungled from the beginning when the police at the
scene didn't do any of that forensing testing, They didn't
hold the scene, they allowed it to be sanitized and
potential evidence lost for good exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
You mentioned that it had been sitting with Shapiro, who
has done nothing except cover for all of his cronies,
which means there has to be an independent investigation. And
I'm begging, begging the FEDS to police get involved in
this miscarriage of just speaking of Shapiro, who is that
close to the Oval office. Until Ellen Greenberg's name came up, Listen, he.
Speaker 14 (35:08):
Transferred it to the Chester County District Attorney. If memory
serves me, they looked at it for a couple of
years and they found the same determination as well. It
has to have some evidence with it, not just someone
feeling different, but certainly if there's some evidence that this
medical examiner has uncovered, I'm not familiar with that. I'm
(35:29):
no longer the age. If they have new evidence, new information,
they should share that immediately.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
There you here, Governor Shapiro just passing the ball again.
That's not his job. His job is to protect his constituents,
and that includes Josh and Sandy Greenberg. Now I want
you to hear William Trask, attorney.
Speaker 14 (35:52):
Now, the City's agreed that the current medical examiner will
reopen Ellen's case and look at the evidence of her
manner of death and come to their own.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Conclusion from our friend's WPV. I so let me understand,
Tom Brennan, what are we waiting on?
Speaker 6 (36:08):
It's okay, that's that decision came in February. It is
now the end of April. We still haven't heard a
thing from Philadelphia. Nothing. Why what's the.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Hold of I mean, Tom Brennan, can we get real?
Even if you did hear Philadelphia say okay, we're going
to look into it, do you trust them? I don't.
After all of it, we have to have an investigation.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
I have no faith in the City of Philadelphia at all. Okay,
that's why when I began this investigation, I told Sandy
and Josh they are going to have to be extremely patient.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Okay, you know what Tom Brennan before I try to
read Philadelphia or any other municipality of corruption. What I'd
like to do is to start with justice for Ellen.
If I could just get that underway, Guiding Andrea, what
do we have to do to put a fire under
their tail?
Speaker 10 (37:11):
Everything Nancy has been done so meticulously, from you to
the Greenberg's to everyone working so hard. I do not
understand to this day, what is taking so long? You
have Marlon Osborne agreeing that it is not a suicide,
which we all know because that originally he called it
(37:31):
a homicide. I don't know what else they could possibly
need to move this. What are they waiting for? I mean,
I know it's not a great answer.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
The guy, we can't go to the governor. We can't
go to the age. He was connected to the governor,
So that takes me out of Pennsylvania. How do we
get the feds to investigate? That's the only recourse?
Speaker 10 (37:56):
Guy, Yeah, The best way I think to get the
federal authorities involved is highlighting potential corruption, right because that's
what's going to give them the jurisdiction to come in
and evaluate this in terms of whether it's a cover off,
whether it's mistakes, whether it's corruption, that's what we need
them to focus on, because going all the way back
(38:17):
to twenty eleven, something went wrong many many, many many
ways along the way.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Sandy Greenberg, did you ever believe that it would come
to this, that this many years later, he would still
be fighting for justice for your daughter?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Ever in my wildest dreams did I think that there
would be any kind of corruption whatsoever. That's why we
have laws, and that's why we have law enforcement. I'd
like to follow rules, and I never was prepared.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
I wasn't prepared, but I certainly.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Am now because I'm not giving Uppin's not giving up.
And the more people see what's going on, they have
to be concerned. It's tremendous public distrust right now.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Sandy Greener joining me, Sandy, what is your message tonight?
Do the right thing? I remember, Sandy, you told me
that you believed that the authorities, if I could call them,
that we're waiting for you to either run out of
money to fight this thing, or to just go away
(39:34):
and die, and then it would be over for them.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
You told me that the truth will speak for itself,
and the truth always comes out.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
We wait as justice unfolds what happened to Ellen. An
American Miscarriage of Justice, goes on the stands and on
Amazon today. Written with the help of my co author
Beney an Hour, We have left no stone unturned. All
(40:08):
proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
We are fighting in every way that we can for
justice for Ellen and tonight American heroes. There could be
no one more heroic than Josh and Sandy Greenberg, who
(40:34):
have fought now nearly fifteen years for justice in our
American justice system, and as of tonight, they have not
gotten it. We have daughters, sisters that we want to protect.
(40:54):
They could not protect Ellen from a killer, but they
can protect her now. Please help them. Nancy Gray signing off,
goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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