April 26, 2025 • 42 mins
11:16 p.m. Saturday. Princeton police respond to a 911 call about a dead body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller remains cryptic, refusing to answer the dispatcher’s questions about who is dead, why they are dead, or who owns the apartment.
Police and first responders surround the building, but nothing prepares them for what they find inside.
Matthew Hertgen, 31, answers the door. Inside, officers see a bloody, unresponsive young man with blunt force and laceration injuries covering his body. He is pronounced dead at the scene. Investigators note that one of his eyes has been removed. Nearby, they find a bloody plate, fork, and knife. Officers also discover a bloody golf club and what appears to be the charred remains of a cat. The victim is identified as 26-year-old Joseph Hertgen.
Matthew Hertgen is immediately arrested for the murder of his younger brother. The discovery of the bloody plate leads police to believe that, in addition to beating Joseph to death, Hertgen ate his eye. Princeton police have not disclosed a possible motive for the attack. Hertgen is also charged with animal cruelty and possession of a weapon during a violent crime.
The Princeton community is stunned. Residents describe Joseph’s death as devastating and tragic. A police source says no one could have foreseen such violence. Matthew Hertgen, they say, came from what appeared to be a stable, all-American family, with no signs he was capable of such brutality—especially against his own brother.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Sam Bassett - Criminal Defense Attorney at Minton, Bassett, Flores & Carsey, Former President of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute, Long-Time Faculty member of the Texas Criminal Trial College (Huntsville, TX), MBFC.com, Facebook: MintonBassett, Instagram: @MBFC_Law
- Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski - Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides;" YouTube: "Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski, Forensic Psychologist"
- Fil Waters - Former homicide detective for the Houston Police Department, President & CEO of Kindred spirits Investigations & Security, Inc.
- Dr. Jan Gorniak - Former Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV), Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, World Peace Forensic Consulting, LLC
- Karen Wall - Senior Local Editor at Patch Media [covering the Jersey Shore region], Website: patch.com; X: @karenwall1966, Facebook: karen.e.wall,
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last Days.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
A star athlete accused in his brother's gruesome murder back
in court as prosecutors prepare an indictment. I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
A Princeton man known as a star student now accused
of murdering his own brother and the family cat. He
was in court prosecutors preparing to take his case to
a secret grand jury. The victim, twenty six year old
Joseph Hurt getting the family superstar, brutally murdered in the
family's Princeton apartment with a knife and a golf club.
(00:48):
A probable cause hearing is set down for the next
few weeks, but that may be totally sidestepped if the
state gets an indictment first. A probable cause hearing is
when evidence is brought forth to a magistrate judge. The
judge decides if there's enough probable cause for the case
(01:10):
to be bound over to superior court or felony court.
But all that can be easily sidestepped if the state
simply takes the case to a grand jury.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
A probable cause hearing is never a good thing. For
the state.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Why because it's a public hearing and the defense gets
a chance to cross examine the state's witnesses.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That's kind of like a dry run for the trial. No, no, no, don't.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Do that, go to grand jury. That said, what do
we believe happened? Based on police sources and police reports
we've managed to obtain.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Listen, flashing lights and sirens break the usual silence outside
the luxury of Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.
Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to
one one call to the nearly seventh thousand dollars a
month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in
the building sell for as much as two million dollars.
As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work
(02:09):
to gain access to the building.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
True words were never spoken.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars
a month apartment, and they can't be happy with every
luxury they could be provided. Still, brother kills Brother, a
story as old as Genesis. Joining me an all star
panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight,
(02:34):
straight out to Karen Wall, Senior Local Editor, Patch Media.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Karen thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
First of all, can you describe where this occurred?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
This apartment is in on the middle of a very
new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,
and they're right in the middle of Homer Square, which
is high end shops. That the whole block where they
are is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly
(03:12):
from the street. You have to go through an archway
to get into it.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
We're talking high end boutiques, you know where you're not
walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars
a month in income.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
You know, it's amazing to me to look at all
these photos and guys, we're getting these photos that you're
seeing right there off there the family's social media. That's
where we're learning so much about these two soccer star brothers.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Now one dad. You know Phil Waters, help me out here.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Phil Waters, guys, you know him well, former homicide detective
for Houston PD, President's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean,
I've been in so many housing projects, Trump through crack houses, brothels.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
For lack of the better word.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
You name it under bridges and strip clubs where murders
go down. But really you're looking down at what Brooks
brothers and Ann Taylor. That's probably not posh enough actually
with and these people still with all of that, they
still have to kill each other. I mean, these two
(04:25):
were soccer stars at preppy schools, bringing in tons of money,
silver spoon, the works.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
What is wrong with these people?
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Well, it just goes to show that people with money
still have problems like the rest of us.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
As you already wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Then okay, problems, Yeah, problems.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
But I don't have the problem that I want to
murder a family member and our cat and dog and
guinea pig.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I call a problem an illness, a family member with
maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and
living under.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
A bridge, those are problems.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
The urge, the sudden, urged a club, your brother dead
with a golf club, then stab him. I call that
a problem. I call that premeditation and murderous intent.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Well, I would have to say that is something like
this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
And what I have noticed that if I have a
case like this, in all my cases that I always
put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when
I get them in the interview room, I want to
be able to address the wise behind the act. And
(05:40):
in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is
that in the description in the media of these two men,
the younger brother the victim here, Joseph has always described
in his great successes in high school, and his great
successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,
(06:05):
with his academics, and then his success with his job,
the work that he's been involved in. And then when
you talk about the description of the brother a suspect
in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.
So there is a real backstory here that is yet
(06:27):
to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.
This was not an instant decision. This is something that
has been building, building, building, and this is you know
what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in
this case, it's a smoking golf club.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
No, no to everything you just said. All of what
you just said may very well be true. Okay, may
be true, but what you are describing is a motive
for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't
see that as a problem that we all have a
(07:04):
family problem that would lead to a drastic act. In
my mind, would be something severe or not. You're jealous
of your little brother because he outdid you on the
soccer field. And speaking of jealousy in this case. To
special guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renown criminal defense attorney
(07:25):
at Minton Bassett, Flores and Carsey, and let me add
former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute, Sam,
I hear everything fil just said, and he may be
factually one hundred percent accurate.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
But about five years.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was looking over
at a defense a killer, a murderer, and it wasn't
his first time, and I thought, why why would he
leave such a wake of pain behind him over nothing?
And then it hit me five years It took me
why ask why? Because the state never has to prove motive,
(08:09):
does it, Sambassett, it does not.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
I think this case kind of has a resonating theme.
In Texas a few years ago, we had a Clay
case where the defense put on an expert to talk
about the affluenza, the psychological effect of wealth and privilege
on a young man who had committed a crime, and
to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell on
(08:35):
unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
Because.
Speaker 6 (08:41):
It's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to
stomach how somebody with all these privileges and all these.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
Blessings could do something like this.
Speaker 6 (08:50):
And I think you have to begin to peel the
onion skin layers and try to understand what was going
on inside this older brother's head. Other than just let
it has to be something even.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Worse you just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Why do I have to get in his head and
look around in there to figure out why he brutally
murdered his brother and the family cat. Now you were
referring to a defense called affluenza when typically an adult
manchild is so used to a silver spoon in his
(09:27):
mouth that he can't relate to real life.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Now, see right now, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
My dad worked the swing shift for the railroad my
whole life, and my mom started off as a bank teller.
All right, So the whole affluenza I'm too rich to
be held accountable thing is not working right here. But
speaking of the affluenza teen, he was not a teen.
But the affluenza defense you're referring to Ethan Couch. I
(09:56):
remember him well, a Terran County case.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Listen nine one one.
Speaker 7 (10:01):
What is your ass emergency? There's a record road we
need commnbuloce. We flipped and again, okay were you involved? Oh,
I was in the truck. Okay, you're in the truck.
Are you injured? We just to help it. And how
(10:23):
many people are injured? Just for my record, dude, I
have no idea. You don't know how many people are
injured we're calling.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's him, Ethan Couch.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,
including a youth minister on the side of the road,
trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently
paralyzing another victim.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And take a listen to the sentence. Look at my brother.
Speaker 8 (10:58):
He's doing more than a twin day period one twenty
eight or whatever he's doing more than ten years of probation.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills
four people while driving under the influence of drugs and
speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special
defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the
blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on
the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for
anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in
jail right now. As it was, it was a lesser
voluntary He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on
each count. But what did he get, An unspecified sentence
to a treatment facility. He goes on the run and
he's found with his mother hold up in a five
(11:49):
star resort in Mexico. He was caught ordering room service,
ordering pizza. Okay him, Ethan cows, you brought it up.
I didn't affluenza, and that's what we're saying here as well.
When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the
(12:12):
permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at
fort Worth Star telegram back to this case.
Speaker 9 (12:22):
Listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night, Princeton Police receive a
nine to one one call about a dead body and
a fire in an apartment building. The caller, Matthew Hurkin,
remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the dispatcher's questions
about who is dead, why they are dead, who owns
the apartment?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
And more?
Speaker 9 (12:41):
Police and first responders surround the building. But nothing could
have prepared officers for what they found inside.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Two Our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch media.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
What did they find inside?
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Karen reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family
cat dead, and they found a bloody knife plate and
Joseph's eyeball missing. The cat apparently had been set on fire.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last days.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
A star athlete accused in his Princeton brother's horrific murder
in court as prosecutors prepare to take the case to
a grand jury. What happened in that Princeton apartment Joining
us right now, Phil Waters, veteran homicide detective.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It was a rage attack. Why do you say that.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Well, just the scene itself. When I walk into a
scene like this. The first thing that's going to stick
out to me is it's overkill. You know, this use
of a golf club and a knife and the condition
of the body of the victim. And then you've got
this this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.
So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that
(14:10):
happened in that scene. This is one of these things
where as I walked into any scene, I let it
talk to me. I want to take a look at it,
and what are these things indicate to me about what
happened in this moment in time in that apartment.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner
and the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners as in Vegas,
never lack of business. She's seen more dead bodies than
probably all of us put together, even having visited many
crime saying, doctor Gorniac, thank you for being with us.
Do you agree with Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this
(14:47):
is a rage attack?
Speaker 8 (14:49):
If so, why I am not sure I can agree
with that because that's outside of my lane. So as
a friendtic pathologist or a death investigator, we go in
and we note the injuries that we see but to
categorize it as a rage, that's not what we typically do.
But I can understand why Phil is saying that an
(15:12):
overkill because the use of more than one weapon golf
club and a sharp force instrument as the knife.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill, what.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Do you mean by that? And what here leads you
to call it overkill?
Speaker 8 (15:31):
Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you
have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and
then you have a sharp force weapon, which is a knife.
I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it
sounds like most of them are from the golf club.
I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and
(15:52):
sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab woman and
someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six. So depending
on that or just number of wounds that you can
take a golf club and strike somebody in the head
one time and cause their death, or you strike them
about the body and not only do they have head injury,
but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Doctor Gorniac, have you ever seen a murder victim that
had a body part gouged out as in this case.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
I've had dismembered bodies, But to gouge out an eye
in this case, I.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Think that would have given me.
Speaker 8 (16:34):
The willies if I was at that scene, because I mean,
I've seen a lot, but that probably would have been
a little bit too much for me.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know, I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalashevski again,
Doctor Jeff.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to
hear what's the motive?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Right? They want to hear?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The
alleged killer the brother in this case was the middle child.
The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect
in every way. He himself was a shining star. He
(17:21):
played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in Toms River.
He went on to play soccer a starting soccer player
for another elite prep school, Wesleyan. I guess that wasn't
enough to satisfy his ego.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
What's with the middle child syndrome?
Speaker 10 (17:42):
Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,
so that they have to do things to get more attention.
But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous
of a little brother. There's a lot more going on
in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier
about using a golf club and then a knife, we
(18:05):
talked about is this a rage killing. There's more going
on than this. You know, someone uses a golf club,
and I've had plenty of cases where people have used
golf clubs and gouged out eyes and said pets on fire.
Believe it or not, the golf club can't kill you,
but it's usually it can be on one hip, but
it's not a very efficient murder weapon. So for what
(18:27):
we talked about already, in this case, this killer was
obviously into the experience of the murder. Took it a
step further where gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience
rather than just aim I want to off my brother
that I'm jealous of and then the idea of setting
the cat on fire. Again, for some reason, this person
is carrying out these acts and these murders for the
(18:52):
experience rather than just the motivation or the aim that
I want to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Okay, Kelly's ask you hold on just a JD.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I'm not a forensic psychologist like your author of Dark
Sides on YouTube, doctor Jeff Kalischewski, forensic psychologist, Doctor Jeff
the experience. We've been analyzing that theory in depth when
it relates to Brian Koberger, the PhD criminology student out
(19:25):
at Pullman in Washington State, and the working theory is
that with no connection to the four murdered college students
murdered in their own beds in the wee hours of
the morning before Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with
(19:46):
the experience. He had been asking in a study for
his PhD, asking violent felons a questionnaire like what did
you feel just before you committed the crime? What were
you thinking? What were you feeling, what went through your mind?
What did it feel like when you identified your quote target?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
How did you feel during it?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Were you cognizant of finding a way out or a
quick exit? In retrospect, how do you feel about what
you experienced.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
During the crime. He was obsessed with it, then.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carried them out,
many people thinking his desire was the experience to know
what it feels like to kill someone. What are you
talking about in this case the middle child syndrome. The
(20:45):
middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's
eyeball out.
Speaker 10 (20:51):
For some reason, he does because, again, if this was
a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going
to kill him, like you said, that goes all the
way back to Genesis, have been done a lot more efficiently,
and it would have not taken us long. In this
experience of using a couple murder weapons, gouging the eyeball,
setting the cat on fire. There's more here than just
(21:13):
a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy or just
a hate of your brother.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Hey, doctor Jeff Kalswski, listen to this. The of course,
cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we
know he was bludgeoned. According to police sources that spoke
to the post, Matthew played. Now this is the suspect.
Brother Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shide,
(21:42):
fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
He's a grown man.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I bet you anything, living off his mom and dad,
but that remains to be saying. He played soccer at
Tom's River North High School and went on to play
at the elite Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he
played college soccer. That's a big deal. That's hard to do.
Very few people make it onto a starting college sports team.
(22:12):
I don't care how great you are in little league,
You're probably not going to make it onto a college team.
He did, and he played on the college team for
years at Wesleyan.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Was that not enough for his ego?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All
Big Ten soccer player, played at University Michigan twenty sixteen
to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,
two time MVP off as a Player of the Year,
graduated from the Steven m Ross School of Business, and
(22:50):
had a career in asset management.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Per the News now hold on, Phil.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an older brother,
by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan, who is
a shining star in his career. Phil Waters, you were
talking about how he just couldn't find that much about
the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out a lot
(23:17):
about the victim. We found out a lot about the
older brother, but not much about the alleged killer brother.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Phil, You're right, well.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
I tell you what, It's just an indication. And again,
and I'm looking at this thing as a homicide top
walking into this scene. I agree with the doctor to
the good degree that once he started the killing, that
he was getting into the experience. But look, it started
that this fuse started burning a long time ago, in
(23:50):
my opinion, and it finally got to the point where
something happened in that apartment that day between he and
his brother that finally blew the lid off of this.
And so again, these things don't happen in a vacuum.
I just think it is. It's I think there's more
to it than just a simple jealousy.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
This is something that is.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Built and built and built over years from a lot
of different directions. And I think the fact that we
know very little about the suspect in this case to
me as a homicide cop, as an indicator, That's why
I would want to get him in an interview room
and delve into where did this start and how did
it manifest itself into this brutal evil killing.
Speaker 7 (24:36):
Of his brother.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also
a college soccer star?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
In There's the Apartment Listen.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive
awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurtgan major's in
business administration, accounting and finance graduates with honors and lands
a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
What you were seeing is from that We are Soccer
at Michigan facebook page.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
The little brother now did a shining star? Listen?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally
murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on
fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.
Thirty one year old Matthew Hrkan is now in police
custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a
golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon and slash
baby brother Joseph Herkin, who is an even more successful athlete,
(25:32):
to death. Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing
an eye, and a bloody plate and fork were found
not far from his body.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Straight out to Sam Bassett joining us, a veteran trial
lawyer out of Texas. What do you make of the
fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,
let's use coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.
Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,
he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and
(26:01):
stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,
both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.
That actually adds to the legal formula here.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I think it does.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
I think it adds to the speculation that I might
have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to
be really angry at his brother and just go off
on him, and he just didn't stop too.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical examiner in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Grniac way in.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
So, we were talking before about the eye gouging being
post mortem.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I believe it post mortem.
Speaker 8 (26:38):
It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're
gonna we're gonna fight. We're going to fight back.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Also where I said it, also, it's I.
Speaker 8 (26:48):
Guess my job is easier than the detectives or the
attorneys because we're just involved with the cause and the
manner of death. So we know the cause, you know,
blunt for's injury, for in injuries, the manner of death
is homicide. We don't deal in with the wise, but
as humans we always want to know. So but we're
(27:08):
sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior. And but that's
what we do because it doesn't make sense. So we're
trying to make sense of it and try to come
up with a story. But I also have to say
we haven't talked about mental health. I think mental health
plays a big role in this case. We don't know
(27:29):
his mental status. Maybe he, like you said, didn't get
along with his brother, but there could be some underlying
mental health issues that he is undiagnosed untreated. But there's
something else definitely going on.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.
Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I did not, Okay, but yes, you are saying there's
a mental health issue. Can I ask, do you have
a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis, treatment
prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the alleged
killer may have had.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Do you know anything at all regarding that? I don't.
Speaker 8 (28:15):
I'm just putting it another layer into the why because
we're trying to figure out what's case.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
So you know nothing at all about his mental health.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yet you are assuming because.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
He killed his brother and gots his eye out that
he must have a mental illness.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Is that in your supposition?
Speaker 8 (28:36):
That is not it? I said, we cannot not think
about it. We have to think about it. We're thinking
about everything else. But we do have a mental health
issue in this country that there's a lot of people
that aren't treated, and we have to make sure that
that's not It's not the why, it's not an excuse.
But this obviously is not normal behavior. You I mean,
(28:58):
I grew up with a sister. Put up, doctor Gorniac.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yet again, doctor gordias on behalf of all murder victims
across our country. Do you believe murdering anyone, let's just say,
an infant lying in its crib?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay? No, then
somehow because the eyes gouge out, you.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Are saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have
a mental health issue.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And in my world.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
What that means is he will go to a treatment
facility and ultimately walk free in about eighteen months.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
That's what means. Dr Gorniac.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
No, No, that's not what I'm saying. So because there
is also you have and I'm not a lawyer. I
don't try cases, but I know there's things about guilty
by reason of insanity. I'm not saying he's insane, but
there has to be. We can't none.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Why did you bring it up?
Speaker 5 (29:52):
There's things I.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Thought you're not saying. Then why did you bring it up?
Let me something me with patch media?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Karen. Isn't it true? And this is a lightning round, Karen.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Isn't it true that the alleged killer, the brother the
middle child.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Called nine one one? Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he
called nine one one.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And isn't it also true when the police arrived, he
opened the door and essentially led them according to the
post to, there's the body right, Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
A family tragedy in New Jersey. A Princeton murder suspect
kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife
and golf club.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what
he did was wrong and report it to nine one
one an usher in the police. Sam Bassett, this is
a yes no, because I know you're going to want
to argue this till you're blue in the fact. But
(31:01):
isn't our law in the American jurisprudence insanity is based
on the old MacNaughton rule that was brought over in
our common law from Great Britain. And the McNaughton rule
of insanity is litmus and it is did Purp know
right from wrong at the time of the incident, not
(31:23):
now that he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy.
At the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal
to know what he did was wrong and call nine
one one and bring in the police.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 6 (31:35):
That is true.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
A grand jury set to convene in the case of
a star athlete charged in his own brother's murder in
a Mercer County Superior courtroom. Felony prosecutors stated they planned
to take Hurtkin's case to a grand jury to get
an indictment. That way, in the nick of time, they
beat a probable cause hearing scheduled in the next few weeks,
(32:11):
the defendant Hurtkin agreed to pre trial detention. What does
that mean that the prosecution did not need to go
to court to show evidence proving why he should be
held behind bars while he awaits trial. Now appearing virtually
from jail, He's seemed polite during a brief appearance, telling
(32:31):
the judge good afternoon. Yet I'm sure he's going to
claim mental instability. He knew enough to say thank you
when the judge told him to have a good day.
As the hearing ended. To doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical
examiner in Vegas, I don't tell you how to perform
an autopsy.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Do I Have I ever told you how to perform
an autopsy?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
No?
Speaker 8 (32:54):
As, But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsist.
I am a dog first. So when I do autopsies,
we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not
going to say whether someone is guilty or not, but
I also have to look at the medical history social
history of my patient also. So I just say that
(33:18):
my patient, right, so I will.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I'm not you're talking about mental health issue on the
alleged killer.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
That's not your patient, is it? It's not, but.
Speaker 8 (33:27):
I'm saying, I'm saying he's crazy mental.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I have anxiety.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
That is a mental health disorders anxiety right now, but
I'm saying so depression, anxiety, personality disorder. But there's it's
there's something else in my opinion, right And I'm not diagnosing.
I'm not saying he's insane. I'm not saying he didn't
know right from wrong. But it's part of you're trying
to figure out what else is in his history? So
(33:55):
what else is in his history? And I think medical, mental, social,
it's very important when you're going to look at the
totality of why someone did something.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
How about his main as hell? And he is consumed mind, body,
and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star
little brother. What about that's not an illness?
Speaker 8 (34:21):
But well maybe it's a coping. Why isn't he Why
isn't he able to cope with that? Why isn't he
able to say congratulations together and not be that jealous?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I understand, I understand that. I'm not arguing. I'm not
to say I get.
Speaker 8 (34:34):
It, but I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational
behavior and I'm just saying, there's many layers to everybody,
and we have to look at his social history. You know,
does he abuse drugs? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Does he use alcohol? We don't know that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
We'll just child my goodness, we have no evidence of
drug in and just fy before you bard that out again.
Volunt use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense
under the moll. I don't care if he does have
a drug problem. I don't care if he drinks himself
silly breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is not an excuse.
(35:12):
How about this Kalishewsky consumed with jealousy starting from day
one when that child, the baby brother, the murder victim,
is brought home from the hospital.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he
gets outshined in school. The brother gets this great job.
He doesn't. In fact, can I see the picture the
alleged killer posted the day before the murder, while the
brother's out working, the murder victim the purpose at home
(35:51):
taking selfies of him with a cat toy.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
There you go, this is him.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
While the brother is out making a living, he's at
home taking selfies with a cat toy Kelishevski.
Speaker 10 (36:05):
Well, the bottom line is, and I think the medical
examiner was getting into this, it's not usual for her
to do an autopsy and a murder victim where the
eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you can
go with the theory of this is a jealous brother rage.
But there's a lot of weird stuff going on beyond
(36:27):
just a murder that happened, and I think those are
the things that people are noticing more than the straightforward
murder case. And I think that's why these questions of
mental health comes up, because of these sort of unusual,
weird things are outside of just a normal I'm jealous
of my brother and I hate him and I'm.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
Going to kill him.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I think he's dead. He's been shot.
Speaker 7 (36:49):
He's been shot. Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband
was shot here?
Speaker 5 (36:54):
How long ago?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten
minutes ago. He was shot. Maybe he's by whom my son,
who's nuts, But I didn't know he was just nuts.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Another spoiled rich brat preppie killer. That one is Thomas
Gilbert Junior, who guns down, his father sends his mom
out for a sandwich, and mommy trots off to the deli,
and while she's gone, he guns down dad because dad
finally was going to cut off his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr.
(37:28):
And now we've got another spoiled rich Bratt who murders
his brother. Now a lot has been made even of
our renowned medical examiner, doctor Jane Gorniac, who ventures to
guess maybe he is mentally ill, maybe he has a
drug or alcohol problem, or maybe he's consumed with jealousy
(37:48):
and finally kills his roommate, his.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Own little brother.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged
killer's poetry? But for hold on, I've taken the liberty
of recording some of it.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (38:04):
Is that your voice or is that my voice? Was
that the work of my hands? Or was that the
work of your hands? Do you like to watch me suffer?
Do you like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,
what is it that you want me to do this time?
Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I
(38:27):
sacrifice everything to your altar? Is there not enough ashes already?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.
But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that
murdered his little brother, is complaining about the little brother.
Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you
like to watch me suffer? What do you want me
(38:55):
to do?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
This time? Burn everything down?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Must I sacrifice everything to your altar?
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah? That's how I read it. Karen Wall.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
There's reams of it online. There's at least two that
we were able to find that I was able to
find in searching. But as.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
The police detective said before, it was hours of searching
to find anything to even give any hint of what
Matt is about and who he is and what is
going on.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
The poetry is very disturbing.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,
he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,
but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.
Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.
He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.
(40:00):
He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing
inside of him. Now, what is it that you want
me to do this time? Do you want me to
burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,
president of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Feel Waters. Now,
(40:22):
a lot of people may do contortions about his mental
health as an excuse for what he did. But he
called nine to one one, he ushered police into the body.
What I would describe this as is wishful thinking. Blood
coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing
(40:44):
the murder scene before he did it.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
I would agree to a degree of that. I want
to come to the defense a little bit to the
good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.
As a homicide detective, where we're going to kind of
determine is what happened and what was theor how was
how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?
(41:07):
You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,
and other than it being said that, I don't know that.
What so I want to see is the autopsy. Did
the eye come out because he was beating him with
a golf club and then once he saw that, then
he went ahead and finished the job. So there's a
(41:29):
lot of stuff going on here. One thing leads to
the other. And when I would attend the autopsy, which
I did in every homicide case I haven't did with
a doctor, and we would discuss what I found at
the scene. So it's all part of the same formula.
So the discussion about mental health is going to be
part of the investigative discussion.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.
A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I
am standing for the crime victim.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
You may think me.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Harsh, but what matters is justice for this crime victim.
The constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to
protect the crime victim. Also, we are learning the Princeton
Preppy murder suspects parents were no shows when their son
(42:31):
appeared in court.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
We wait as justice unfolds.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
And to find out what the grand jury has to say.
Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last Days.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
A star athlete accused in his brother's gruesome murder back
in court as prosecutors prepare an indictment. I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
A Princeton man known as a star student now accused
of murdering his own brother and the family cat. He
was in court prosecutors preparing to take his case to
a secret grand jury. The victim, twenty six year old
Joseph Hurt getting the family superstar, brutally murdered in the
family's Princeton apartment with a knife and a golf club.
(00:48):
A probable cause hearing is set down for the next
few weeks, but that may be totally sidestepped if the
state gets an indictment first. A probable cause hearing is
when evidence is brought forth to a magistrate judge. The
judge decides if there's enough probable cause for the case
(01:10):
to be bound over to superior court or felony court.
But all that can be easily sidestepped if the state
simply takes the case to a grand jury.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
A probable cause hearing is never a good thing. For
the state.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Why because it's a public hearing and the defense gets
a chance to cross examine the state's witnesses.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That's kind of like a dry run for the trial. No, no, no, don't.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Do that, go to grand jury. That said, what do
we believe happened? Based on police sources and police reports
we've managed to obtain.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Listen, flashing lights and sirens break the usual silence outside
the luxury of Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.
Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to
one one call to the nearly seventh thousand dollars a
month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in
the building sell for as much as two million dollars.
As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work
(02:09):
to gain access to the building.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
True words were never spoken.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars
a month apartment, and they can't be happy with every
luxury they could be provided. Still, brother kills Brother, a
story as old as Genesis. Joining me an all star
panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight,
(02:34):
straight out to Karen Wall, Senior Local Editor, Patch Media.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Karen thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
First of all, can you describe where this occurred?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
This apartment is in on the middle of a very
new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,
and they're right in the middle of Homer Square, which
is high end shops. That the whole block where they
are is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly
(03:12):
from the street. You have to go through an archway
to get into it.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
We're talking high end boutiques, you know where you're not
walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars
a month in income.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
You know, it's amazing to me to look at all
these photos and guys, we're getting these photos that you're
seeing right there off there the family's social media. That's
where we're learning so much about these two soccer star brothers.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Now one dad. You know Phil Waters, help me out here.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Phil Waters, guys, you know him well, former homicide detective
for Houston PD, President's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean,
I've been in so many housing projects, Trump through crack houses, brothels.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
For lack of the better word.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
You name it under bridges and strip clubs where murders
go down. But really you're looking down at what Brooks
brothers and Ann Taylor. That's probably not posh enough actually
with and these people still with all of that, they
still have to kill each other. I mean, these two
(04:25):
were soccer stars at preppy schools, bringing in tons of money,
silver spoon, the works.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
What is wrong with these people?
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Well, it just goes to show that people with money
still have problems like the rest of us.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
As you already wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Then okay, problems, Yeah, problems.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
But I don't have the problem that I want to
murder a family member and our cat and dog and
guinea pig.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I call a problem an illness, a family member with
maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and
living under.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
A bridge, those are problems.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
The urge, the sudden, urged a club, your brother dead
with a golf club, then stab him. I call that
a problem. I call that premeditation and murderous intent.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Well, I would have to say that is something like
this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
And what I have noticed that if I have a
case like this, in all my cases that I always
put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when
I get them in the interview room, I want to
be able to address the wise behind the act. And
(05:40):
in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is
that in the description in the media of these two men,
the younger brother the victim here, Joseph has always described
in his great successes in high school, and his great
successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,
(06:05):
with his academics, and then his success with his job,
the work that he's been involved in. And then when
you talk about the description of the brother a suspect
in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.
So there is a real backstory here that is yet
(06:27):
to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.
This was not an instant decision. This is something that
has been building, building, building, and this is you know
what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in
this case, it's a smoking golf club.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
No, no to everything you just said. All of what
you just said may very well be true. Okay, may
be true, but what you are describing is a motive
for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't
see that as a problem that we all have a
(07:04):
family problem that would lead to a drastic act. In
my mind, would be something severe or not. You're jealous
of your little brother because he outdid you on the
soccer field. And speaking of jealousy in this case. To
special guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renown criminal defense attorney
(07:25):
at Minton Bassett, Flores and Carsey, and let me add
former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute, Sam,
I hear everything fil just said, and he may be
factually one hundred percent accurate.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
But about five years.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was looking over
at a defense a killer, a murderer, and it wasn't
his first time, and I thought, why why would he
leave such a wake of pain behind him over nothing?
And then it hit me five years It took me
why ask why? Because the state never has to prove motive,
(08:09):
does it, Sambassett, it does not.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
I think this case kind of has a resonating theme.
In Texas a few years ago, we had a Clay
case where the defense put on an expert to talk
about the affluenza, the psychological effect of wealth and privilege
on a young man who had committed a crime, and
to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell on
(08:35):
unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
Because.
Speaker 6 (08:41):
It's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to
stomach how somebody with all these privileges and all these.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
Blessings could do something like this.
Speaker 6 (08:50):
And I think you have to begin to peel the
onion skin layers and try to understand what was going
on inside this older brother's head. Other than just let
it has to be something even.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Worse you just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Why do I have to get in his head and
look around in there to figure out why he brutally
murdered his brother and the family cat. Now you were
referring to a defense called affluenza when typically an adult
manchild is so used to a silver spoon in his
(09:27):
mouth that he can't relate to real life.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Now, see right now, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
My dad worked the swing shift for the railroad my
whole life, and my mom started off as a bank teller.
All right, So the whole affluenza I'm too rich to
be held accountable thing is not working right here. But
speaking of the affluenza teen, he was not a teen.
But the affluenza defense you're referring to Ethan Couch. I
(09:56):
remember him well, a Terran County case.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Listen nine one one.
Speaker 7 (10:01):
What is your ass emergency? There's a record road we
need commnbuloce. We flipped and again, okay were you involved? Oh,
I was in the truck. Okay, you're in the truck.
Are you injured? We just to help it. And how
(10:23):
many people are injured? Just for my record, dude, I
have no idea. You don't know how many people are
injured we're calling.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's him, Ethan Couch.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,
including a youth minister on the side of the road,
trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently
paralyzing another victim.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And take a listen to the sentence. Look at my brother.
Speaker 8 (10:58):
He's doing more than a twin day period one twenty
eight or whatever he's doing more than ten years of probation.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills
four people while driving under the influence of drugs and
speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special
defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the
blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on
the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for
anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in
jail right now. As it was, it was a lesser
voluntary He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on
each count. But what did he get, An unspecified sentence
to a treatment facility. He goes on the run and
he's found with his mother hold up in a five
(11:49):
star resort in Mexico. He was caught ordering room service,
ordering pizza. Okay him, Ethan cows, you brought it up.
I didn't affluenza, and that's what we're saying here as well.
When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the
(12:12):
permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at
fort Worth Star telegram back to this case.
Speaker 9 (12:22):
Listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night, Princeton Police receive a
nine to one one call about a dead body and
a fire in an apartment building. The caller, Matthew Hurkin,
remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the dispatcher's questions
about who is dead, why they are dead, who owns
the apartment?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
And more?
Speaker 9 (12:41):
Police and first responders surround the building. But nothing could
have prepared officers for what they found inside.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Two Our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch media.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
What did they find inside?
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Karen reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family
cat dead, and they found a bloody knife plate and
Joseph's eyeball missing. The cat apparently had been set on fire.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last days.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
A star athlete accused in his Princeton brother's horrific murder
in court as prosecutors prepare to take the case to
a grand jury. What happened in that Princeton apartment Joining
us right now, Phil Waters, veteran homicide detective.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It was a rage attack. Why do you say that.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Well, just the scene itself. When I walk into a
scene like this. The first thing that's going to stick
out to me is it's overkill. You know, this use
of a golf club and a knife and the condition
of the body of the victim. And then you've got
this this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.
So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that
(14:10):
happened in that scene. This is one of these things
where as I walked into any scene, I let it
talk to me. I want to take a look at it,
and what are these things indicate to me about what
happened in this moment in time in that apartment.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner
and the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners as in Vegas,
never lack of business. She's seen more dead bodies than
probably all of us put together, even having visited many
crime saying, doctor Gorniac, thank you for being with us.
Do you agree with Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this
(14:47):
is a rage attack?
Speaker 8 (14:49):
If so, why I am not sure I can agree
with that because that's outside of my lane. So as
a friendtic pathologist or a death investigator, we go in
and we note the injuries that we see but to
categorize it as a rage, that's not what we typically do.
But I can understand why Phil is saying that an
(15:12):
overkill because the use of more than one weapon golf
club and a sharp force instrument as the knife.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill, what.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Do you mean by that? And what here leads you
to call it overkill?
Speaker 8 (15:31):
Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you
have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and
then you have a sharp force weapon, which is a knife.
I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it
sounds like most of them are from the golf club.
I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and
(15:52):
sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab woman and
someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six. So depending
on that or just number of wounds that you can
take a golf club and strike somebody in the head
one time and cause their death, or you strike them
about the body and not only do they have head injury,
but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Doctor Gorniac, have you ever seen a murder victim that
had a body part gouged out as in this case.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
I've had dismembered bodies, But to gouge out an eye
in this case, I.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Think that would have given me.
Speaker 8 (16:34):
The willies if I was at that scene, because I mean,
I've seen a lot, but that probably would have been
a little bit too much for me.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know, I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalashevski again,
Doctor Jeff.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to
hear what's the motive?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Right? They want to hear?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The
alleged killer the brother in this case was the middle child.
The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect
in every way. He himself was a shining star. He
(17:21):
played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in Toms River.
He went on to play soccer a starting soccer player
for another elite prep school, Wesleyan. I guess that wasn't
enough to satisfy his ego.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
What's with the middle child syndrome?
Speaker 10 (17:42):
Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,
so that they have to do things to get more attention.
But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous
of a little brother. There's a lot more going on
in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier
about using a golf club and then a knife, we
(18:05):
talked about is this a rage killing. There's more going
on than this. You know, someone uses a golf club,
and I've had plenty of cases where people have used
golf clubs and gouged out eyes and said pets on fire.
Believe it or not, the golf club can't kill you,
but it's usually it can be on one hip, but
it's not a very efficient murder weapon. So for what
(18:27):
we talked about already, in this case, this killer was
obviously into the experience of the murder. Took it a
step further where gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience
rather than just aim I want to off my brother
that I'm jealous of and then the idea of setting
the cat on fire. Again, for some reason, this person
is carrying out these acts and these murders for the
(18:52):
experience rather than just the motivation or the aim that
I want to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Okay, Kelly's ask you hold on just a JD.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I'm not a forensic psychologist like your author of Dark
Sides on YouTube, doctor Jeff Kalischewski, forensic psychologist, Doctor Jeff
the experience. We've been analyzing that theory in depth when
it relates to Brian Koberger, the PhD criminology student out
(19:25):
at Pullman in Washington State, and the working theory is
that with no connection to the four murdered college students
murdered in their own beds in the wee hours of
the morning before Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with
(19:46):
the experience. He had been asking in a study for
his PhD, asking violent felons a questionnaire like what did
you feel just before you committed the crime? What were
you thinking? What were you feeling, what went through your mind?
What did it feel like when you identified your quote target?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
How did you feel during it?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Were you cognizant of finding a way out or a
quick exit? In retrospect, how do you feel about what
you experienced.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
During the crime. He was obsessed with it, then.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carried them out,
many people thinking his desire was the experience to know
what it feels like to kill someone. What are you
talking about in this case the middle child syndrome. The
(20:45):
middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's
eyeball out.
Speaker 10 (20:51):
For some reason, he does because, again, if this was
a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going
to kill him, like you said, that goes all the
way back to Genesis, have been done a lot more efficiently,
and it would have not taken us long. In this
experience of using a couple murder weapons, gouging the eyeball,
setting the cat on fire. There's more here than just
(21:13):
a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy or just
a hate of your brother.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Hey, doctor Jeff Kalswski, listen to this. The of course,
cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we
know he was bludgeoned. According to police sources that spoke
to the post, Matthew played. Now this is the suspect.
Brother Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shide,
(21:42):
fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
He's a grown man.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I bet you anything, living off his mom and dad,
but that remains to be saying. He played soccer at
Tom's River North High School and went on to play
at the elite Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he
played college soccer. That's a big deal. That's hard to do.
Very few people make it onto a starting college sports team.
(22:12):
I don't care how great you are in little league,
You're probably not going to make it onto a college team.
He did, and he played on the college team for
years at Wesleyan.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Was that not enough for his ego?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All
Big Ten soccer player, played at University Michigan twenty sixteen
to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,
two time MVP off as a Player of the Year,
graduated from the Steven m Ross School of Business, and
(22:50):
had a career in asset management.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Per the News now hold on, Phil.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an older brother,
by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan, who is
a shining star in his career. Phil Waters, you were
talking about how he just couldn't find that much about
the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out a lot
(23:17):
about the victim. We found out a lot about the
older brother, but not much about the alleged killer brother.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Phil, You're right, well.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
I tell you what, It's just an indication. And again,
and I'm looking at this thing as a homicide top
walking into this scene. I agree with the doctor to
the good degree that once he started the killing, that
he was getting into the experience. But look, it started
that this fuse started burning a long time ago, in
(23:50):
my opinion, and it finally got to the point where
something happened in that apartment that day between he and
his brother that finally blew the lid off of this.
And so again, these things don't happen in a vacuum.
I just think it is. It's I think there's more
to it than just a simple jealousy.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
This is something that is.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Built and built and built over years from a lot
of different directions. And I think the fact that we
know very little about the suspect in this case to
me as a homicide cop, as an indicator, That's why
I would want to get him in an interview room
and delve into where did this start and how did
it manifest itself into this brutal evil killing.
Speaker 7 (24:36):
Of his brother.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also
a college soccer star?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
In There's the Apartment Listen.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive
awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurtgan major's in
business administration, accounting and finance graduates with honors and lands
a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
What you were seeing is from that We are Soccer
at Michigan facebook page.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
The little brother now did a shining star? Listen?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally
murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on
fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.
Thirty one year old Matthew Hrkan is now in police
custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a
golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon and slash
baby brother Joseph Herkin, who is an even more successful athlete,
(25:32):
to death. Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing
an eye, and a bloody plate and fork were found
not far from his body.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Straight out to Sam Bassett joining us, a veteran trial
lawyer out of Texas. What do you make of the
fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,
let's use coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.
Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,
he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and
(26:01):
stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,
both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.
That actually adds to the legal formula here.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I think it does.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
I think it adds to the speculation that I might
have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to
be really angry at his brother and just go off
on him, and he just didn't stop too.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical examiner in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Grniac way in.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
So, we were talking before about the eye gouging being
post mortem.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I believe it post mortem.
Speaker 8 (26:38):
It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're
gonna we're gonna fight. We're going to fight back.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Also where I said it, also, it's I.
Speaker 8 (26:48):
Guess my job is easier than the detectives or the
attorneys because we're just involved with the cause and the
manner of death. So we know the cause, you know,
blunt for's injury, for in injuries, the manner of death
is homicide. We don't deal in with the wise, but
as humans we always want to know. So but we're
(27:08):
sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior. And but that's
what we do because it doesn't make sense. So we're
trying to make sense of it and try to come
up with a story. But I also have to say
we haven't talked about mental health. I think mental health
plays a big role in this case. We don't know
(27:29):
his mental status. Maybe he, like you said, didn't get
along with his brother, but there could be some underlying
mental health issues that he is undiagnosed untreated. But there's
something else definitely going on.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.
Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I did not, Okay, but yes, you are saying there's
a mental health issue. Can I ask, do you have
a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis, treatment
prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the alleged
killer may have had.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Do you know anything at all regarding that? I don't.
Speaker 8 (28:15):
I'm just putting it another layer into the why because
we're trying to figure out what's case.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
So you know nothing at all about his mental health.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yet you are assuming because.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
He killed his brother and gots his eye out that
he must have a mental illness.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Is that in your supposition?
Speaker 8 (28:36):
That is not it? I said, we cannot not think
about it. We have to think about it. We're thinking
about everything else. But we do have a mental health
issue in this country that there's a lot of people
that aren't treated, and we have to make sure that
that's not It's not the why, it's not an excuse.
But this obviously is not normal behavior. You I mean,
(28:58):
I grew up with a sister. Put up, doctor Gorniac.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yet again, doctor gordias on behalf of all murder victims
across our country. Do you believe murdering anyone, let's just say,
an infant lying in its crib?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay? No, then
somehow because the eyes gouge out, you.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Are saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have
a mental health issue.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And in my world.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
What that means is he will go to a treatment
facility and ultimately walk free in about eighteen months.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
That's what means. Dr Gorniac.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
No, No, that's not what I'm saying. So because there
is also you have and I'm not a lawyer. I
don't try cases, but I know there's things about guilty
by reason of insanity. I'm not saying he's insane, but
there has to be. We can't none.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Why did you bring it up?
Speaker 5 (29:52):
There's things I.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Thought you're not saying. Then why did you bring it up?
Let me something me with patch media?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Karen. Isn't it true? And this is a lightning round, Karen.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Isn't it true that the alleged killer, the brother the
middle child.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Called nine one one? Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he
called nine one one.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And isn't it also true when the police arrived, he
opened the door and essentially led them according to the
post to, there's the body right, Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
A family tragedy in New Jersey. A Princeton murder suspect
kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife
and golf club.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what
he did was wrong and report it to nine one
one an usher in the police. Sam Bassett, this is
a yes no, because I know you're going to want
to argue this till you're blue in the fact. But
(31:01):
isn't our law in the American jurisprudence insanity is based
on the old MacNaughton rule that was brought over in
our common law from Great Britain. And the McNaughton rule
of insanity is litmus and it is did Purp know
right from wrong at the time of the incident, not
(31:23):
now that he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy.
At the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal
to know what he did was wrong and call nine
one one and bring in the police.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 6 (31:35):
That is true.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
A grand jury set to convene in the case of
a star athlete charged in his own brother's murder in
a Mercer County Superior courtroom. Felony prosecutors stated they planned
to take Hurtkin's case to a grand jury to get
an indictment. That way, in the nick of time, they
beat a probable cause hearing scheduled in the next few weeks,
(32:11):
the defendant Hurtkin agreed to pre trial detention. What does
that mean that the prosecution did not need to go
to court to show evidence proving why he should be
held behind bars while he awaits trial. Now appearing virtually
from jail, He's seemed polite during a brief appearance, telling
(32:31):
the judge good afternoon. Yet I'm sure he's going to
claim mental instability. He knew enough to say thank you
when the judge told him to have a good day.
As the hearing ended. To doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical
examiner in Vegas, I don't tell you how to perform
an autopsy.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Do I Have I ever told you how to perform
an autopsy?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
No?
Speaker 8 (32:54):
As, But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsist.
I am a dog first. So when I do autopsies,
we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not
going to say whether someone is guilty or not, but
I also have to look at the medical history social
history of my patient also. So I just say that
(33:18):
my patient, right, so I will.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I'm not you're talking about mental health issue on the
alleged killer.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
That's not your patient, is it? It's not, but.
Speaker 8 (33:27):
I'm saying, I'm saying he's crazy mental.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I have anxiety.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
That is a mental health disorders anxiety right now, but
I'm saying so depression, anxiety, personality disorder. But there's it's
there's something else in my opinion, right And I'm not diagnosing.
I'm not saying he's insane. I'm not saying he didn't
know right from wrong. But it's part of you're trying
to figure out what else is in his history? So
(33:55):
what else is in his history? And I think medical, mental, social,
it's very important when you're going to look at the
totality of why someone did something.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
How about his main as hell? And he is consumed mind, body,
and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star
little brother. What about that's not an illness?
Speaker 8 (34:21):
But well maybe it's a coping. Why isn't he Why
isn't he able to cope with that? Why isn't he
able to say congratulations together and not be that jealous?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I understand, I understand that. I'm not arguing. I'm not
to say I get.
Speaker 8 (34:34):
It, but I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational
behavior and I'm just saying, there's many layers to everybody,
and we have to look at his social history. You know,
does he abuse drugs? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Does he use alcohol? We don't know that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
We'll just child my goodness, we have no evidence of
drug in and just fy before you bard that out again.
Volunt use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense
under the moll. I don't care if he does have
a drug problem. I don't care if he drinks himself
silly breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is not an excuse.
(35:12):
How about this Kalishewsky consumed with jealousy starting from day
one when that child, the baby brother, the murder victim,
is brought home from the hospital.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he
gets outshined in school. The brother gets this great job.
He doesn't. In fact, can I see the picture the
alleged killer posted the day before the murder, while the
brother's out working, the murder victim the purpose at home
(35:51):
taking selfies of him with a cat toy.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
There you go, this is him.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
While the brother is out making a living, he's at
home taking selfies with a cat toy Kelishevski.
Speaker 10 (36:05):
Well, the bottom line is, and I think the medical
examiner was getting into this, it's not usual for her
to do an autopsy and a murder victim where the
eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you can
go with the theory of this is a jealous brother rage.
But there's a lot of weird stuff going on beyond
(36:27):
just a murder that happened, and I think those are
the things that people are noticing more than the straightforward
murder case. And I think that's why these questions of
mental health comes up, because of these sort of unusual,
weird things are outside of just a normal I'm jealous
of my brother and I hate him and I'm.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
Going to kill him.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I think he's dead. He's been shot.
Speaker 7 (36:49):
He's been shot. Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband
was shot here?
Speaker 5 (36:54):
How long ago?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten
minutes ago. He was shot. Maybe he's by whom my son,
who's nuts, But I didn't know he was just nuts.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Another spoiled rich brat preppie killer. That one is Thomas
Gilbert Junior, who guns down, his father sends his mom
out for a sandwich, and mommy trots off to the deli,
and while she's gone, he guns down dad because dad
finally was going to cut off his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr.
(37:28):
And now we've got another spoiled rich Bratt who murders
his brother. Now a lot has been made even of
our renowned medical examiner, doctor Jane Gorniac, who ventures to
guess maybe he is mentally ill, maybe he has a
drug or alcohol problem, or maybe he's consumed with jealousy
(37:48):
and finally kills his roommate, his.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Own little brother.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged
killer's poetry? But for hold on, I've taken the liberty
of recording some of it.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (38:04):
Is that your voice or is that my voice? Was
that the work of my hands? Or was that the
work of your hands? Do you like to watch me suffer?
Do you like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,
what is it that you want me to do this time?
Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I
(38:27):
sacrifice everything to your altar? Is there not enough ashes already?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.
But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that
murdered his little brother, is complaining about the little brother.
Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you
like to watch me suffer? What do you want me
(38:55):
to do?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
This time? Burn everything down?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Must I sacrifice everything to your altar?
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah? That's how I read it. Karen Wall.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
There's reams of it online. There's at least two that
we were able to find that I was able to
find in searching. But as.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
The police detective said before, it was hours of searching
to find anything to even give any hint of what
Matt is about and who he is and what is
going on.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
The poetry is very disturbing.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,
he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,
but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.
Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.
He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.
(40:00):
He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing
inside of him. Now, what is it that you want
me to do this time? Do you want me to
burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,
president of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Feel Waters. Now,
(40:22):
a lot of people may do contortions about his mental
health as an excuse for what he did. But he
called nine to one one, he ushered police into the body.
What I would describe this as is wishful thinking. Blood
coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing
(40:44):
the murder scene before he did it.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
I would agree to a degree of that. I want
to come to the defense a little bit to the
good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.
As a homicide detective, where we're going to kind of
determine is what happened and what was theor how was
how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?
(41:07):
You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,
and other than it being said that, I don't know that.
What so I want to see is the autopsy. Did
the eye come out because he was beating him with
a golf club and then once he saw that, then
he went ahead and finished the job. So there's a
(41:29):
lot of stuff going on here. One thing leads to
the other. And when I would attend the autopsy, which
I did in every homicide case I haven't did with
a doctor, and we would discuss what I found at
the scene. So it's all part of the same formula.
So the discussion about mental health is going to be
part of the investigative discussion.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.
A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I
am standing for the crime victim.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
You may think me.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Harsh, but what matters is justice for this crime victim.
The constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to
protect the crime victim. Also, we are learning the Princeton
Preppy murder suspects parents were no shows when their son
(42:31):
appeared in court.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
We wait as justice unfolds.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
And to find out what the grand jury has to say.
Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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