June 1, 2021 • 47 mins
Isolation, loss of routine, remote schooling, fear, sadness, and uncertainty have all been tough on young people during the pandemic. Scarier still is the big unknown - what sort of lasting impact all this will have on our kids’ mental and physical health.
This week, Chelsea is sitting down with childhood trauma specialist, founder of the Center for Youth Wellness, and California’s first Surgeon General Dr. Nadine Burke Harris and Senior Vice President of Curriculum and Content at Sesame Workshop Dr. Rosemarie Truglio to talk about the toll and trauma of the past year, and how we can support kids (and caretakers) as we move forward.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M Hi. I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact
a podcast about why public health matters even when we're
not in a pandemic. And before I go any further,
I should just let you know that I've been quite
sick recently and so sound fairly raspy and not quite myself.
(00:23):
I'll be totally fine, thankfully, but I've been sick and
so I don't sound great, and I just wanted to
let you know. So back to our regular schedule programming.
Over the last year, we've heard a lot about the
physical health consequences of COVID nineteen, but the pandemic has
also taken a toll on people's mental health and well being.
And if you ask any parents, they'll tell you that isolation,
(00:43):
loss of routine, remote schooling, fear, sadness, and uncertainty have
all been really tough on young people. Scarier still is
the idea that all of this could and probably will
have a lasting impact. Today, I'm talking with two people
who are deeply invested in understanding it's of boarding children's
mental health. Later, we'll hear from Rosemary Tulio, the senior
(01:04):
vice president of Curriculum and Content at SESAME Workshop. If
Elma or Grover. Has ever helped a child, you know,
feel less alone? It's probably thanks to the work of
Rosemary and her team. But first, I'm speaking with California's
first ever Surgeon General, Dr Nadine Burke Harris. Dr Burke
Harris is a pediatrician, researcher, and advocate who specializes in
childhood drauma. She founded the Center for Youth Wellness, which
(01:27):
has helped advance pediatric medicine, raise public awareness, and transform
the way society responds to children who are exposed to
adverse childhood experiences or aces and toxic stress. I'm delighted
to welcome her to the podcast. Well, thank you, Dr
Burke Harris for talking with us about public health and
(01:48):
especially mental health and kids mental health. Well, first of all,
commun a dean, and thank you so much. This is
so much fun. I know that you're an expert in
child to trauma. Could you just share how you first
got interested in this topic. I went to medical school
for the same reasons as a lot of other people,
(02:09):
you know. I wanted to help people be healthier. I
wanted to heal communities, and when I finished my residency
at Stanford, I ended up starting a clinic in one
of San Francisco's most underserved neighborhoods, and I did you know,
all of the things that I learned in my medical
(02:30):
training and public health playbook in terms of immunizations and
nutrition education and treating all the different health conditions. But
the thing that I was noticing was that the kids
who came to me, who in the course of learning
about their ear infection or learning about their hearing, you know,
(02:51):
asking for prescription for their A d h D medicine.
In the little bits in between, I would hear about
the parent who was incarcerated. Two different moms said can
you please check my child? Because I had to work
this weekend, I didn't have any child care, and the
only place that I could leave him or her was
(03:12):
with her grandpa, And everybody knows grandpa's a lester, so
could you just check her out? Right? It was a lot,
and it was something that I didn't feel like I
was totally trained for when I was in medical school
or residency. And what I noticed was my kids, who
were exposed to the highest levels of adversity and trauma,
(03:32):
they also had the worst health problems. We intuitively think
about behavioral health I saw a lot of kids who
were struggling to learn, learning disorders, a d h D,
mental and behavioral health, some of the things that we
typically think about. But I also was seeing like crazy
levels of weird infections and autoimmune disease and asthma and
(03:53):
all of these different things. And then when I started
getting into the research about how these things affect health,
that's when I learned about this, this body of research
I had never really learned much about, which is that
exposure to adversity in childhood actually changes the way our
brains and bodies developed, and it actually profoundly increases the
(04:16):
risk of lots of different health problems, so mental health problems, depression, anxiety, suicidality,
even serious mental health disorders like schizophrenia. But it also
increases the risk for nine out of ten of the
leading cause of death, things like heart disease and stoke
and cancer, things like diabetes, Alzheimer's, all of these things,
(04:38):
and I was like, this is nuts. So diving into
the science, what we now understand is that when we're
exposed to something scary or traumatic, and especially in childhood,
it activates our stress response, our fight or flight response
that releases stress hormones, and it activates our immune system,
and it releases inflammation in our bodies, all of these
(05:01):
different things, and that's normal, that's what's supposed to happen.
But if it happens too frequently, we're too severely. It
happens over and over again, and especially if kids don't
get the buffering, nurturing care that helps our bodies to
be able to shut off our stress response, then that
can lead to increased risk of mental and physical health disorders.
(05:24):
The big study that talked about that was the Average
Child Experience, the study that was done by the CDC.
When I learned about it, it it was a total career
changer for me because I felt, Oh my god, this
is this is health, this is public health, this is science,
this is medicine, and yet it seemed like there wasn't
very much that we were doing about it for so long.
(05:45):
So much of medicine has often treated kids as many adults,
and we know that kids are not many adults. We
know they have different biology and also clearly experienced the
world differently, and they need more from the world. How
do you think we have made progress for either the
(06:05):
study of kids or the treatment of kids and what
more do we still need to do in addition to
clearly pushing our training of future doctors and nurses and
anyone from a health perspective who may interact with kids.
So one of the things that I would say in
all fairness is that a lot of our emerging understanding
(06:27):
has come from advances in science and technology. I think
before because we didn't have good ways of measuring it,
it was hard for a lot of people to see.
And then now when we do a functional m r
R and a child who has been exposed to high
doses of adversity, we can actually see differences in the
function of different brain regions, and what I think is
(06:51):
really exciting, we can also measure the impact of positive interventions.
There's great research that shows now all that the stuff
that your grandmother probably would have told you, which is
that when children, even children who have experienced significant Josephs
of adversity, when they receive safe, stable, nurturing relationships, right
(07:12):
like when they get that connection from a trusted adult
who helps them feel safe and and understood, that actually
leads to healing in some of these brain regions. When
Grandma says it, it's no, that's grandma. But when you
show it on a functional MRI, people like science. It's science.
And also recognizing that while we're talking about kids, I'm
(07:36):
the parent of a one, four and six year old.
I'd see huge differences right between my one year old,
four year old and six year old, and I see
huge differences between my kids and then my nieces and
nephews who are teenagers. That's exactly right. In our household,
we have four boys and the little ones are five
(07:58):
and about to be now mine, Oh, I know that's
importantly about to be Yes, exactly. Yeah, He's like, I'm
eight and eleven twelves, and our big boys are twin
eighteen year olds who are adopted. So we have this
like big, crazy, blended family. I always say, the little
ones help me appreciate the big ones, and the big
ones help me appreciate the little ones. They're so different,
(08:21):
their developmental needs are so different, and the approaches that
we take right are so different. So Nadine, Over the
last more than a year of COVID nineteen, we've talked
a fair bit about how hard remote school has been
for kids, how that's affected kid's ability to connect with another,
(08:42):
connect with their teachers, how it's affected kids mental health.
Could you just talk about kind of what else you've seen. Sure,
it's been a tough year for kids, and I want
to recognize that not everyone has the same experience. I
will say that, first of all, is someone who's done
(09:02):
a lot of research and studied stress physiology. And when
I talk about how adverged child had experiences lead to
potentially negative health outcomes, one of the things that's really
important is that the mechanism that happens, that's something called
the development of the toxic stress response. The way that's
defined is like you're exposed to the adversity and it's
an absence of adequate buffering caregiving systems is what leads
(09:25):
to this development, because if you have the right care
you can actually shut off the stress response. So what
we see has been happening over last year for kids
is that not only are they home from school, where
school is a source of a lot of things. For
a lot of kids, it's not just a place where
you learn three RS. It's also a place where you know.
(09:46):
Many kids, it might be their only reliable and nutritious meal.
For a lot of kids, it's where they get their
connection to everyone in the school environment. For kids who
are in households where there's a parent who is struggling
with either mental health issues or substance use issues, it
might be the only place in the day where they
(10:08):
get to spend a fair amount of time with a
well regulated adult who is adequately able to care for them.
It's also a place where a lot of kids get healthcare,
exactly exactly. It's a place where kids get healthcare. It's
a place where they have a safe place to play.
Not all of that is going to happen through distance learning,
(10:28):
and so that is a big loss. The importance of
pure relationships is also worth noting. But in addition to that,
it's the after school program that they're not doing. I
know are big boys, they're big athletes, and that was
a big loss for them, not being able to participate
in their sports there, you know, not being able to
go to their places of worship and be part of
(10:49):
their faith communities. It's all of these different things. And
in addition, the pandemic brought huge economic stressors, especially for
most vulnerable. And so you're in the household with a
parent who's often pretty stressed and who themselves is doing
their best to cope, and you know, we saw increases
(11:12):
and intimate partner violence, folks who are relapsing with behavioral
health conditions or substance use disorders, increases in mental and
behavioral health concerns. There was I think Kaiser Family Foundation
did a study where the number of folks who were
reporting anxiety or depression went from eleven percent in June
(11:32):
of tot in January. So that's a lot. And and
so we have this a lot of kids who are
in households where they are experiencing a lot of the
stress and anxiety. And then there was another research from
Common Sense Media that was telling us that for youth
(11:54):
who had a family member who got COVID, that their
mental and behavioral health was significantly worse than for those
youth who didn't have an exposed family member. So this
it's been a lot, it's been a lot. And so
just recognizing all of this stress that has fallen most
(12:15):
heavily on our already vulnerable kids and yet has affected
all of our kids, how do we move forward, both
from a public policy perspective since you're the Surgeon General
of California, and also just like mom to mom, how
do we move forward. I remember when the first shelter
in place went into effect, I was like, okay. I
(12:35):
immediately started thinking about what recovery would look like, what
people would be going through during this time, and then
how we can have what we ended up calling roadmap
for resilience. And it's really about how do we have
a trauma informed approach to everything that we do on
a cross sector level. So trauma best practice for trauma
(12:57):
and form care and education in healthcare, in our justice system,
our early childhood work, which I know is something that's
near and dear to your heart, and across all sectors.
How do we make sure that all you know, staff
and personnel trained professionals are trained and understand how to
(13:18):
use trauma and formed approaches. How they can be part
of creating safe, stable, and nurturing relationships and environments for kids.
How we on the policy side can support parents and caregivers.
The parents support the child, but the community supports the parents.
So how do we build communities where parents can take
(13:40):
paid family leave and not have to worry? What a
radical idea. All of the research shows that this is
a best practice for our economy as well as for
our public health that's right, We'll be right back, stay
with us. How do you recommend that parents talk to
(14:11):
their kids about these transitions, be honest about our own
mental health and these transitions, our own fears of the
uncertainty of what COVID may still throw at us, but
still in always centering our kids and ensuring that we're
supporting them, Like, how do you think we do all
of that? Self care is not optional and really recognizing
(14:31):
I think for a lot of us and a lot
of parents, we value putting others first, which is really important.
But at the same time, if we don't practice self care.
And when I'm talking about self care, I'm not just
talking about a massage or a many petty although those
are nice. I'm really talking about checking in with ourselves,
(14:52):
talking to a therapist, doing that, making sure that we're
making time for that regular exercise or whatever it is.
That how obsessed to be able to be physically and
emotionally well. I mean that is the foundation from which
we then are able to care for others in our lives,
and to be able to do that sustainably is really important.
(15:14):
But also, yeah, having these honest conversations about uncertainty and
sometimes there are things that we don't know. I mean,
I'm a certain general California, and I have to sit
down with my kids and sometimes I have to say,
you know what, I really don't know. I don't know
when little kids are going to be vaccinated. We have
(15:36):
some ideas, we're hearing some things from vaccine manufacturers and
from from the government, but we don't exactly know. And
so let's make a plan for what we can do
in the meantime and how we can support ourselves and
support each other and acknowledging that's hard. I don't know,
and I don't like the fact that I don't know.
I get the sense that thankfully they're really has been
(15:57):
the destigmatization of talking about mental health. Recognizing mental health
is part of our overall health. I know, though those
conversations that I'm not reflecting on have largely been centered
on adult experiences. Do you think there's a similar destigmatization
happening for kids mental health? So my short answer is yes,
(16:17):
I think that there is right now this incredible amount
of worry. Frankly, I think there are a lot of
adults who are really worried about what the impact of
the pandemic stress will be on this generation and worried
(16:38):
about whether it will mark them or or what does
it mean. I hear parents saying, Oh my goodness, I
have a two year old and they've spent an entire
year half of their lives. Yeah, I mean Nadine. I
have a one and a half year old who spent
the majority of his life in COVID. I took him
for his eighteen month well child visit. It was full
body sobbing for forty minutes. The nurse kept trying to
(17:01):
do his head circumference weigh him. He would not let
go of me. I was like, oh my gosh, he's
normally such a happy child. But I realized it was
the prospect of someone else touching him because he's never
had a plate eight. His interactions with most of his
family are on its screen in two dimensions. And the
nurse was like, Oh, don't worry, he's a COVID baby,
and I was like, oh my gosh. So the thing
(17:23):
I would say for that is he's going to have
to navigate a transition, and that transition is very likely
to be stressful and anxiety provoking. And you are that,
which of course makes my heart beat harder. To him like,
oh my gosh, you don't worry, girl, I got you.
It's okay, right, And this is a gift of being
(17:47):
a stress physiology researcher in my life is that that's
okay because we're not going to raise our kids in
a bubble where no bad thing ever happens. That hard
things happen, demics happen, people get sick, people pass away,
bad things happen in life. And what we have the
(18:07):
opportunity to do now in this moment is to teach
our kids how to regulate when something scary is happening.
And this is something that I've actually been doing an
incredible amount with my little ones around. Okay, well, what
do we do in this moment? This is really scary?
What do you do when you're scared? And you're not
(18:28):
going to say that to an eighteen month old, to
an eighteen month old, you're going to rub their back,
You're gonna hold on so you can say you're okay,
you're safe, and they navigate it and when they come
through it with our support, they're stronger for it. We
have the opportunity to teach them an incredibly important life skill.
How do we ground ourselves when we're in moments that
(18:50):
feel scary in topsy turvy. And we also, especially for
little ones, have the opportunity to teach them you are safe,
you're hey. So I think for those kids that have that,
and for those of us who are able to do
that for our kids, those kids are going to be great.
The kids I worry about, Yeah, that's my next question, Indie,
and how do we help support the kids who may
(19:13):
not have that safe place to return to. That's why
some of the things that we see coming out right now,
like for example, in the American Rescue Plan around financial
support for families with kids, cutting child poverty in half. Honestly,
that is where our communities and for us who are
(19:36):
in the role of making policies like this is where
we show up for families because I'm going to say,
we don't have a choice. We have been through one
of the biggest traumas in a century, and if we
do not support families, if if we're not supporting all
(19:59):
of us, we will see the toll. Because we know
that the type of things that folks have been through
is the type of stuff that makes a profound difference
on health and well being down the line for generations,
for generations without adequate buffering supports. So what we do
right now makes a world of difference. This pandemic has
(20:22):
widened the gap between the most advantaged and the most
disadvantaged Americans, and now is the moment we have to
implement these community wide solutions to be able to ensure
that everyone has a fair shot. Thank you so much, Nadine.
It's wonderful to see you and to talk with you today.
(20:46):
This has been awesome. Dr Nadine Burke Harris is the
Surgeon General of California. Her book is called The Deepest Well,
Healing the Long Term Effects of Childhood Adversity, and I
wanted to share a resource that she and her team
recently put together to raise awareness of adverse childhood experiences
and toxic stress. It's called the Number Story and you
(21:09):
can check it out at number story dot org. I
was very excited to speak with our next guest, Sesame
Street played a big part in my childhood and now
as a parent of three kids, and an even greater
appreciation for how skillfully their programs teach and entertain, all
(21:29):
while helping kids to understand their own experiences and emotions.
This has been especially valuable during the pandemic. This past December,
my kids and I watched the town hall Sesame Street
did with CNN called the A. B. C's of COVID nineteen.
Was comforting to see Big Bird asked the same questions
that so many of our kids have had about staying safe,
about feeling anxious and uncertain, and so much more. If
(21:52):
you missed it, you can find the whole thing on YouTube,
and I highly recommend it. Behind this and other great
Sesame programming is a team of researcher, educators, and creators.
That team includes today's guest Rosemarie Trulio. She's a Senior
vice President of Curriculum and Content at Sesame Workshop, which means,
among other things, she helps develop the educational curriculum that
(22:13):
Sesame Street is based on. I was thrilled to have
the chance to speak with her. Could you just as
a place to start, tell us what do you do
at Sesame Street and how did you first get involved.
I'm a developmental psychologist and my graduate studies involved the
influences of television on child development, looking at both the
(22:36):
positive effects and the not so positive effects, but really
focused on how to use media in children's lives that
will be beneficial because media is a part of children's lives.
And then I went to become a professor at Teachers College,
Columbia University, but always stayed connected to Sesame Workshop because
(23:00):
they are the gold standard of how to create educational
content for children, and not just children, the families and
individuals who are co engaging with their children with media.
And was given the opportunity to join the workshop in
and my job was twofold. One was to maintain and
(23:24):
develop the whole child curriculum that Sesame Street is based on.
It's a school readiness curriculum designed for children between the
ages of two to five, so getting them ready for school,
and to keep that curriculum dynamic because we're always looking
at what are the best practices, always identifying what are
the educational needs or the societal needs or the health
(23:48):
needs of children that we can then address in the
content that we're creating on Sesame Street. And most importantly,
to conduct the research with children. We actually go into
schools and go into homes and see how children are
reacting to our content. Are they finding an appealing Because
you can have the best content and if it's not
(24:09):
appealing to children and not watching it. We can't address
those educational needs and get those educational gains. And what
are they learning from the stories that we're creating. Are
they actually able to comprehend the messages that we are
intending for them to comprehend. So that's the basis of
my job. How do you take all of your research
(24:32):
and all of your kind of creativity and blend those
two together to create a new character or a storyline.
How does that process work? It starts with what is
a current need in child development? So there's an example
of this change that has occurred in all of our lives.
(24:55):
With COVID nineteen, we went into shutdown and this is
a huge instruction in the lives of children. And they're
no longer maintaining their regular routine. And we know children
need structure and they need a routine, and how do
we address all of their questions? So says to me,
(25:15):
here's an example of we have an opportunity not only
in our television show, but through our online content to
actually communicate with parents. So it starts with what are
the child development needs? What are the main messages? And
so for COVID nineteen, there are health messages. We want
(25:36):
to talk about germs, What are germs, what happens when
our body gets sick, but more importantly, what you can
do to avoid getting sick. So all of those practices,
wearing the mask, keeping distance, washing your hands, and creating
a song so that kids will have a song to
sing too, because we know that you need to wash
your hands for twenty seconds, Well what does mean to
(25:57):
a child? So singing a song helps. But then there
are all those social emotional components. I'm not going outside,
I'm not going to school, I'm not seeing my friends,
and I'm doing what we're calling these virtual play dates
and we're doing remote learning. We've done all that in
our house. So it does start with what are the
(26:19):
key messages, what are the key lessons that we want
to convey, and then working with creative and then figuring
out what are the best stories and how to portray
our characters in a way that is the same as
what the children are going through. So having Elma talk
(26:39):
about how he is staying connected with his friends through
a video chat, how Rosita is going to school remotely
and modeling that and for the special, which was a
family special, what was most important there is to give
children a sense of empowerment and a sense of hope. Right,
(27:03):
we want children to understand that they could do their part,
not only in keeping themselves healthy, but how they can
keep others around them healthy. And that's a really important
message for kids, especially when there's a lot of chaos
going on and you're losing a sense of that control.
Here is another tip to stay healthy. Wear a mask
(27:25):
in public to protect your self and others. Make sure
to wear it properly like this, This is not correct?
Like this? Yes, yes, yes. What are the simple things
that kids could do to feel that they are in control?
And not only that, but they have a purpose. So
(27:46):
when you tell a child you could help others stay healthy,
that's amazing. Think about that. I I could do that,
and that also helps them build resiliency and Rose ram
so struck by watching Sesame Street or reading books with
my kids, how much more discussion there is around feelings
(28:08):
than certainly I remember thirty five years ago when I
was a little kid. Can you just share how Sesame
thinks about your role in helping kids to be connected
to their mental health, helping them understand how to be
aware of maybe if they are starting to struggle and
feel like it's actually a sign of strength to ask
(28:31):
for help, but not weakness. It's so important for children
to an adults to ask for help, and for children,
it's about asking for help from an adult who they
feel safe with. So the importance of children to have
that sense of safety is critical for their overall growth
(28:57):
and development. The other message for children and adults is
that we all deal with a range of emotions and
sometimes we have these big feelings and you could have
multiple big feelings, but with really young children, those feelings
could be overwhelming because they don't know how to articulate
(29:22):
what they're feeling. So with really young children, the vocabulary
of emotions is critical, and that's why it's so important
for parents to have these talks and help them identify
how they're feeling and putting a label on it. The
next step is how do I manage this feeling. When
(29:44):
we think about school writing, as everyone says, oh, we've
got to know literacy and numerousy you need to know
your math and your letters and other academic skills. But
another critical school reading as skill is what we call
these executive function skills, these process skills, and one executive
function skill is how can I focus my attention right
(30:06):
now in coping with what I'm feeling, But more importantly,
how do I shift my attention away from this feeling
so I could move on? Now we're building resiliency skills.
So there's so many strategies that we are portraying and
our content that help children and families deal with these
big feelings. One example is taking a deep breath. Those
(30:28):
deep cleansing breaths are so important. Another activity is a
glitter jar. It's a jar with glitter and you shake
it up and it gives children something to focus on
as they're doing these deep breaths. So the swirling glitter
is those swirling emotions in what you're feeling, and as
you're breathing, you're focusing on the glitter falling to the
(30:51):
bottom of the jar. And when the glitter gets to
the bottom of the jar, you could see through that
jar clear. And that's an example of now I just
had a reset, and now I can talk about my feelings,
but more importantly, I could figure out how to move on.
What is the next step. I'm so curious if during
(31:12):
the pandemic you sessame has oriented even more toward parents,
to try to help equip parents with the right questions
and when we have answers, the right answers to support
kids in this moment that we're all still living through.
SYSME has been putting a lot of emphasis on parenting.
(31:34):
In fact, I wrote a book for parents called Ready
for School and It's a Parent's Guide to playful Learning
for children ages two to five. And the reason why
I wrote this book, no one is really explaining how
to how to help your child get ready for school,
or to deal with social emotional issues, or to deal
(31:56):
with health issues. And I often say to parents, sesame
Street with your child, because we, in many respects are
a parenting show. We have a human cast and we
have parents puppets, and we are modeling these interactions for
parents for how to talk to your child or how
(32:18):
to deal with whatever may be coming up in a
storyline which represents what is typically happen in children's lives.
So like, for instance, with COVID nineteen, parents felt the
extra pressure that now they have to become a teacher.
And what we were trying to say, the message we
were trying to give is that children learn best through
these everyday moments. What's most important is for parents to
(32:43):
embrace children's curiosity and not be afraid of questions and
not be afraid to say I don't know, but let's
find out together. To open up the learning as a
co learning experience is very liberating and playful, right, we
(33:04):
want parents to engage in playful learning. Was we're just
listening to. I was thinking about a conversation that I
had today with my two older kids, who are six
and four, over breakfast, and they were asking, again, when
are we going to be able to get vaccinated against
COVID nineteen? And I had to say, I don't know.
(33:25):
I don't know. It is strange for parents when we
are so used to having at least like most of
the answers or answers that are more complete than not
to just have to often continue to say sometimes daily,
sometimes now multiple times a day, I don't know, and
that's okay. It is something though, that I've had to
work on as a parent, like getting comfortable with saying
(33:46):
I don't know, and I think it's actually been good.
Fark It's be like, oh okay, right. But the other
thing that you are modeling is that you have a
positive approach to learning right, I don't know. Right now,
the scientists are looking to this. They are doing this
research to make sure that a vaccine, when it becomes available,
will be safe. And you are going to be reading
(34:09):
about this. You're going to be gathering information so that
you will one day know and you will then let
them know. And I think that's really important for children
to see us as adults that we are still learning.
Learning is lifelong, and we want to set at a
very young age this positive trajectory, this positive approach to learning,
(34:35):
which is why during the preschool years that sense of
wonder it's going away and we have to be very
mindful that it doesn't go away. We're taking a quick
break to stay with us. Now that COVID nineteen has
(35:04):
been classified as an adverse childhood experience or an ACE
for all kids. I know I'm not the only parent
who is worried about how the last fifteen sixteen months
could affect my kids over the next years of their lives,
(35:25):
even if kids are hopefully back in school vaccinated without masks.
You know, what advice do you have and how do
you think Sesame will deal with the ongoing ripple effects
of this even long after hopefully we're all back in school,
back together. You know, we have all dealt with a
lot in terms of the loss of loved ones, the
(35:47):
loss of jobs, so income has been affected, which then
leads to homelessness. Possibly it leads to food insecurity. And
Sesame has dealt with all of these topics with online materials.
Not every topic is appropriate in the children's program of
(36:10):
Sesame Street. And we dealt with nine eleven on Sesame Street.
We didn't deal with it directly as calling it nine eleven,
but we looked at what was going on in terms
of how children maybe dealing with the loss of a
loved one. So in that case, big Bird is dealing
with losing his newly adopted pet turtle who doesn't die,
(36:34):
but he goes back to his natural environment, but modeling
those strategies for how to handle the loss of someone.
Also in the case of nine eleven, having feelings about
people who looked Middle Eastern and that sense of shunning
someone because they don't look like you. In terms of
(36:56):
COVID nineteen and it now being classified as an adverse
childhood experience some children, yes, that is the case, right
because COVID nineteen led to the death of a loved one.
So these are big stressors in children's lives. Other children,
just the stress of losing my routine and being at
(37:19):
home and not having that social interaction with others. That
is hard. That's really hard for children. And now we're
asking them to do another shift. So first I was like,
we could go out, but we have to wear masks,
and we've got all these rules and regulations about six
ft apart. And now the masks are coming off if
you're vaccinated, So get another change. And I'm bringing up
(37:40):
these changes because flexibility is a really important component of
building resiliency skills, which is why mental health professionals were
saying there's a silver lining associated with COVID nineteen because
this is also giving us an opportunity to help our
(38:01):
children build those executive function skills, the ability to be
flexible and to adapt. That is helping them build resiliency skills.
And I think that is what we're doing on Sesame Street.
Throughout programming is really putting these social emotional skills at
the forefront, but not at the expense of the academic skills,
(38:24):
because when you really think about it, it's those positive
approaches to learning, don't give up, and how can I
be flexible and adapt and cope with my big feelings?
Is what is at the core the essential school readiness skills.
We also watch the Sesame streets in town hall and racism,
(38:46):
and I think it has been really important for SESAME
to do that work, and so just would be really
interested in hearing your thoughts on how that work relates
to your kind of mental health work at SESAME, Why
it has been so important for you to tackle these
big issues in a way that is age appropriate but
(39:08):
also sometimes searingly painful and honest as a way to
help support kids resilience and overall mental health and well being.
It does go back to understanding that when children are
asking questions, it's coming from an innocent place. It's coming
from a place of curiosity. So when children make observations
(39:31):
about race or make statements about race, parents are often
uncomfortable addressing their child's observation. A child may notice that
their friends skin color is different from his mother's skin color,
and we'll make that observation and just ask that question,
why is Johnny's skin color different from his mommy? And
(39:55):
often a parent would say, oh, no, we don't talk
about skin color. We're all the same on the inside.
When you dismiss a child's question because you are uncomfortable
answering it, you are now sending this message that they
asked the wrong question. And that goes back to helping
children have this positive approach to learning because they're coming
like I just want to know. Because young children are
(40:17):
just categorizing, right, They're trying to figure out how the
world works. They're not born racist. Racism is learned. So
on Sesame, we have decided, even though we have a
long history of showing diversity and inclusion and letting everyone
know that we all belong, we decided that we're going
(40:38):
to be much more explicit in talking about children's questions
about race, but more importantly to identify when there is
unfair behavior based on skin color, eye shape, hair texture,
or even their language that they speak or the accent
(41:00):
that they may have. And it gets back to mental
health because we want to empower children, so we want
to instill a positive self identity. So we want all
children to embrace their racial, ethnic and cultural identity and
to feel good about themselves, but more importantly learn about others.
(41:24):
Television can be a mirror. I want to be able
to see myself, but it's also a window for us
to see and to learn about others. And Sesame Street
takes us very seriously, and we want to teach children
about how they could do their part to be an upstander.
So when they do see someone being left out or
(41:49):
talked about in a mean way because of their race, ethnicity,
and culture, we want them to maybe they need to
go to a trusted adult and get some help if
they can, to say that is wrong, to stand up
and identify that is a wrong behavior, and to be
there as an ally in support of others when they
(42:10):
see this. Many years ago, we did a bullying show
with Big Bird where he was trying to join the
Good Birds Club and he's like, I'm a good bird.
I could be a part of the Good Birds Club,
but they were keeping him out because the club was
comprised of small blue birds and he doesn't fit. He
is an eight foot two yellow bird with very large feet,
(42:32):
and so they were picking on his physical appearance as
a way of keeping him out. And we modeled what
it means to be an upstander in that particular episode.
While Elmo and Abby were trying to do their part,
they needed to bring in a trusted adult. They brought
in Chris to help them. I think, just as a
final question, it would be good to hear, like, what
(42:54):
advice do you have for the adults of small people
to help those small people navigate through the still uncertain
times over the months ahead, looking toward hopefully being back
in school in the autumn. How do we help prepare
kids for that? And of course always help kids know
that they can talk to us about their feelings, about
their excitement and their anxiety alike. I think the message
(43:18):
is as adults parents, we got to take care of ourselves.
We really have to do the right things to make
sure that we're in check so that we can keep
our children in check. If we're anxious, they're picking up
on our anxiety. The other message is children want to
be connected to us and to really to be present
(43:41):
when they are connecting with us, and that means answering
their questions as best as you can and really truly
listen to their question. I think that's another thing that
parents make. The mistake the child may ask a question
and the parents will go off and give way too
much information right truly listen to what that question is
(44:03):
and give a nugget of information and then see what
the next question it is. But to give them all
this information is overwhelming and can cause anxiety. We are
going to be a bit anxious probably in this new
year going back to school, because there's going to be
so many changes, and that's where those resiliency skills come in.
Empower children, give them a sense of I can and
(44:28):
so if it is about going back to school the
weeks prior, maybe we'll do some role play and help
them understand what it's like to have those social interactions. Again,
I think we're all a bit anxious. We don't know
how to interact socially anymore. We haven't done that. I
definitely don't, But I guess the bottom line is that
(44:49):
we want to give children a sense of hope and
to praise them for what they have accomplished. We just
got through this over a year of change and we
are adapting, and we should be praising these positive midlestones.
We've achieved a lot, we've learned a lot, and we've
achieved a lot, and these are skills that are just
(45:11):
helping us overall be flexible and adaptable as we move
forward because there's something else that's going to happen. Life
is constantly sending us curveballs, and how we handle the
curveballs is what is critical in helping children build these
resubiliency skills and better mental health because of these skills
(45:33):
and strategies. My grandmother had an added that life is
not about what happens to you, It's about what you
do with what happens to you. So after having listened
to you, I really feel like she was probably onto
something very wise. Grandmother. Thank you so much for your time,
thank of your work, and I'm excited to see what's
next for Sesame. Thank you, Thank you. Chelsea. Rosemary Julio's
(45:59):
book Saspice Street Ready for School, a parent's guide to
playful Learning for children's ages two to five, is a
great resource. You can also find lots of wonderful materials.
I'm talking with kids about the COVID nineteen pandemic and
so much more at Sesame Street dot org slash caring.
The pandemic has posed unique challenges for anyone caring for children,
(46:20):
whether that's teachers, parents, relatives, or anyone else. As adults,
it's been our job to be calm and reassuring even
when we might be overwhelmed, unsure, grieving or scared. We
have our work cut out for us when it comes
to helping kids, whether this drama, and just like for adults,
mental health can't be an afterthought for kids. But as
(46:41):
we heard from Nadine and Rosemary, there's a lot we
can do. That includes making sure all caretakers have the
support that they need, housing, healthy and affordable food, healthcare,
the ability to navigate work and family responsibilities, and so
much more. And it also includes taking care of our
own well being so that we can be there for
the kids who are counting on us. And finally, it
(47:03):
includes something I still struggle with all the time, getting
comfortable that we don't have all the answers for the
questions that kids are asking, and that sometimes we need
to say I don't know, We're going to figure it out.
In Fact is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
We're produced by Erica Goodmanson, Lauren Peterson, Kathy Russo, Julie Subrian,
(47:24):
and Justin Wright, with help from the Hidden Light team
of Barry Lurry, Sarah Horowitz, Nikki Huggett, Emily Young and
hum Abite with additional support from Lindsay Hoffman. Original music
is by Justin Wright. If you liked this episode of
In Fact, please make sure to subscribe so you never
miss an episode, and tell your family and friends to
do the same. If you really want to help us out,
(47:46):
leave us our review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks again for listening,
and see you next week.
M Hi. I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact
a podcast about why public health matters even when we're
not in a pandemic. And before I go any further,
I should just let you know that I've been quite
sick recently and so sound fairly raspy and not quite myself.
(00:23):
I'll be totally fine, thankfully, but I've been sick and
so I don't sound great, and I just wanted to
let you know. So back to our regular schedule programming.
Over the last year, we've heard a lot about the
physical health consequences of COVID nineteen, but the pandemic has
also taken a toll on people's mental health and well being.
And if you ask any parents, they'll tell you that isolation,
(00:43):
loss of routine, remote schooling, fear, sadness, and uncertainty have
all been really tough on young people. Scarier still is
the idea that all of this could and probably will
have a lasting impact. Today, I'm talking with two people
who are deeply invested in understanding it's of boarding children's
mental health. Later, we'll hear from Rosemary Tulio, the senior
(01:04):
vice president of Curriculum and Content at SESAME Workshop. If
Elma or Grover. Has ever helped a child, you know,
feel less alone? It's probably thanks to the work of
Rosemary and her team. But first, I'm speaking with California's
first ever Surgeon General, Dr Nadine Burke Harris. Dr Burke
Harris is a pediatrician, researcher, and advocate who specializes in
childhood drauma. She founded the Center for Youth Wellness, which
(01:27):
has helped advance pediatric medicine, raise public awareness, and transform
the way society responds to children who are exposed to
adverse childhood experiences or aces and toxic stress. I'm delighted
to welcome her to the podcast. Well, thank you, Dr
Burke Harris for talking with us about public health and
(01:48):
especially mental health and kids mental health. Well, first of all,
commun a dean, and thank you so much. This is
so much fun. I know that you're an expert in
child to trauma. Could you just share how you first
got interested in this topic. I went to medical school
for the same reasons as a lot of other people,
(02:09):
you know. I wanted to help people be healthier. I
wanted to heal communities, and when I finished my residency
at Stanford, I ended up starting a clinic in one
of San Francisco's most underserved neighborhoods, and I did you know,
all of the things that I learned in my medical
(02:30):
training and public health playbook in terms of immunizations and
nutrition education and treating all the different health conditions. But
the thing that I was noticing was that the kids
who came to me, who in the course of learning
about their ear infection or learning about their hearing, you know,
(02:51):
asking for prescription for their A d h D medicine.
In the little bits in between, I would hear about
the parent who was incarcerated. Two different moms said can
you please check my child? Because I had to work
this weekend, I didn't have any child care, and the
only place that I could leave him or her was
(03:12):
with her grandpa, And everybody knows grandpa's a lester, so
could you just check her out? Right? It was a lot,
and it was something that I didn't feel like I
was totally trained for when I was in medical school
or residency. And what I noticed was my kids, who
were exposed to the highest levels of adversity and trauma,
(03:32):
they also had the worst health problems. We intuitively think
about behavioral health I saw a lot of kids who
were struggling to learn, learning disorders, a d h D,
mental and behavioral health, some of the things that we
typically think about. But I also was seeing like crazy
levels of weird infections and autoimmune disease and asthma and
(03:53):
all of these different things. And then when I started
getting into the research about how these things affect health,
that's when I learned about this, this body of research
I had never really learned much about, which is that
exposure to adversity in childhood actually changes the way our
brains and bodies developed, and it actually profoundly increases the
(04:16):
risk of lots of different health problems, so mental health problems, depression, anxiety, suicidality,
even serious mental health disorders like schizophrenia. But it also
increases the risk for nine out of ten of the
leading cause of death, things like heart disease and stoke
and cancer, things like diabetes, Alzheimer's, all of these things,
(04:38):
and I was like, this is nuts. So diving into
the science, what we now understand is that when we're
exposed to something scary or traumatic, and especially in childhood,
it activates our stress response, our fight or flight response
that releases stress hormones, and it activates our immune system,
and it releases inflammation in our bodies, all of these
(05:01):
different things, and that's normal, that's what's supposed to happen.
But if it happens too frequently, we're too severely. It
happens over and over again, and especially if kids don't
get the buffering, nurturing care that helps our bodies to
be able to shut off our stress response, then that
can lead to increased risk of mental and physical health disorders.
(05:24):
The big study that talked about that was the Average
Child Experience, the study that was done by the CDC.
When I learned about it, it it was a total career
changer for me because I felt, Oh my god, this
is this is health, this is public health, this is science,
this is medicine, and yet it seemed like there wasn't
very much that we were doing about it for so long.
(05:45):
So much of medicine has often treated kids as many adults,
and we know that kids are not many adults. We
know they have different biology and also clearly experienced the
world differently, and they need more from the world. How
do you think we have made progress for either the
(06:05):
study of kids or the treatment of kids and what
more do we still need to do in addition to
clearly pushing our training of future doctors and nurses and
anyone from a health perspective who may interact with kids.
So one of the things that I would say in
all fairness is that a lot of our emerging understanding
(06:27):
has come from advances in science and technology. I think
before because we didn't have good ways of measuring it,
it was hard for a lot of people to see.
And then now when we do a functional m r
R and a child who has been exposed to high
doses of adversity, we can actually see differences in the
function of different brain regions, and what I think is
(06:51):
really exciting, we can also measure the impact of positive interventions.
There's great research that shows now all that the stuff
that your grandmother probably would have told you, which is
that when children, even children who have experienced significant Josephs
of adversity, when they receive safe, stable, nurturing relationships, right
(07:12):
like when they get that connection from a trusted adult
who helps them feel safe and and understood, that actually
leads to healing in some of these brain regions. When
Grandma says it, it's no, that's grandma. But when you
show it on a functional MRI, people like science. It's science.
And also recognizing that while we're talking about kids, I'm
(07:36):
the parent of a one, four and six year old.
I'd see huge differences right between my one year old,
four year old and six year old, and I see
huge differences between my kids and then my nieces and
nephews who are teenagers. That's exactly right. In our household,
we have four boys and the little ones are five
(07:58):
and about to be now mine, Oh, I know that's
importantly about to be Yes, exactly. Yeah, He's like, I'm
eight and eleven twelves, and our big boys are twin
eighteen year olds who are adopted. So we have this
like big, crazy, blended family. I always say, the little
ones help me appreciate the big ones, and the big
ones help me appreciate the little ones. They're so different,
(08:21):
their developmental needs are so different, and the approaches that
we take right are so different. So Nadine, Over the
last more than a year of COVID nineteen, we've talked
a fair bit about how hard remote school has been
for kids, how that's affected kid's ability to connect with another,
(08:42):
connect with their teachers, how it's affected kids mental health.
Could you just talk about kind of what else you've seen. Sure,
it's been a tough year for kids, and I want
to recognize that not everyone has the same experience. I
will say that, first of all, is someone who's done
(09:02):
a lot of research and studied stress physiology. And when
I talk about how adverged child had experiences lead to
potentially negative health outcomes, one of the things that's really
important is that the mechanism that happens, that's something called
the development of the toxic stress response. The way that's
defined is like you're exposed to the adversity and it's
an absence of adequate buffering caregiving systems is what leads
(09:25):
to this development, because if you have the right care
you can actually shut off the stress response. So what
we see has been happening over last year for kids
is that not only are they home from school, where
school is a source of a lot of things. For
a lot of kids, it's not just a place where
you learn three RS. It's also a place where you know.
(09:46):
Many kids, it might be their only reliable and nutritious meal.
For a lot of kids, it's where they get their
connection to everyone in the school environment. For kids who
are in households where there's a parent who is struggling
with either mental health issues or substance use issues, it
might be the only place in the day where they
(10:08):
get to spend a fair amount of time with a
well regulated adult who is adequately able to care for them.
It's also a place where a lot of kids get healthcare,
exactly exactly. It's a place where kids get healthcare. It's
a place where they have a safe place to play.
Not all of that is going to happen through distance learning,
(10:28):
and so that is a big loss. The importance of
pure relationships is also worth noting. But in addition to that,
it's the after school program that they're not doing. I
know are big boys, they're big athletes, and that was
a big loss for them, not being able to participate
in their sports there, you know, not being able to
go to their places of worship and be part of
(10:49):
their faith communities. It's all of these different things. And
in addition, the pandemic brought huge economic stressors, especially for
most vulnerable. And so you're in the household with a
parent who's often pretty stressed and who themselves is doing
their best to cope, and you know, we saw increases
(11:12):
and intimate partner violence, folks who are relapsing with behavioral
health conditions or substance use disorders, increases in mental and
behavioral health concerns. There was I think Kaiser Family Foundation
did a study where the number of folks who were
reporting anxiety or depression went from eleven percent in June
(11:32):
of tot in January. So that's a lot. And and
so we have this a lot of kids who are
in households where they are experiencing a lot of the
stress and anxiety. And then there was another research from
Common Sense Media that was telling us that for youth
(11:54):
who had a family member who got COVID, that their
mental and behavioral health was significantly worse than for those
youth who didn't have an exposed family member. So this
it's been a lot, it's been a lot. And so
just recognizing all of this stress that has fallen most
(12:15):
heavily on our already vulnerable kids and yet has affected
all of our kids, how do we move forward, both
from a public policy perspective since you're the Surgeon General
of California, and also just like mom to mom, how
do we move forward. I remember when the first shelter
in place went into effect, I was like, okay. I
(12:35):
immediately started thinking about what recovery would look like, what
people would be going through during this time, and then
how we can have what we ended up calling roadmap
for resilience. And it's really about how do we have
a trauma informed approach to everything that we do on
a cross sector level. So trauma best practice for trauma
(12:57):
and form care and education in healthcare, in our justice system,
our early childhood work, which I know is something that's
near and dear to your heart, and across all sectors.
How do we make sure that all you know, staff
and personnel trained professionals are trained and understand how to
(13:18):
use trauma and formed approaches. How they can be part
of creating safe, stable, and nurturing relationships and environments for kids.
How we on the policy side can support parents and caregivers.
The parents support the child, but the community supports the parents.
So how do we build communities where parents can take
(13:40):
paid family leave and not have to worry? What a
radical idea. All of the research shows that this is
a best practice for our economy as well as for
our public health that's right, We'll be right back, stay
with us. How do you recommend that parents talk to
(14:11):
their kids about these transitions, be honest about our own
mental health and these transitions, our own fears of the
uncertainty of what COVID may still throw at us, but
still in always centering our kids and ensuring that we're
supporting them, Like, how do you think we do all
of that? Self care is not optional and really recognizing
(14:31):
I think for a lot of us and a lot
of parents, we value putting others first, which is really important.
But at the same time, if we don't practice self care.
And when I'm talking about self care, I'm not just
talking about a massage or a many petty although those
are nice. I'm really talking about checking in with ourselves,
(14:52):
talking to a therapist, doing that, making sure that we're
making time for that regular exercise or whatever it is.
That how obsessed to be able to be physically and
emotionally well. I mean that is the foundation from which
we then are able to care for others in our lives,
and to be able to do that sustainably is really important.
(15:14):
But also, yeah, having these honest conversations about uncertainty and
sometimes there are things that we don't know. I mean,
I'm a certain general California, and I have to sit
down with my kids and sometimes I have to say,
you know what, I really don't know. I don't know
when little kids are going to be vaccinated. We have
(15:36):
some ideas, we're hearing some things from vaccine manufacturers and
from from the government, but we don't exactly know. And
so let's make a plan for what we can do
in the meantime and how we can support ourselves and
support each other and acknowledging that's hard. I don't know,
and I don't like the fact that I don't know.
I get the sense that thankfully they're really has been
(15:57):
the destigmatization of talking about mental health. Recognizing mental health
is part of our overall health. I know, though those
conversations that I'm not reflecting on have largely been centered
on adult experiences. Do you think there's a similar destigmatization
happening for kids mental health? So my short answer is yes,
(16:17):
I think that there is right now this incredible amount
of worry. Frankly, I think there are a lot of
adults who are really worried about what the impact of
the pandemic stress will be on this generation and worried
(16:38):
about whether it will mark them or or what does
it mean. I hear parents saying, Oh my goodness, I
have a two year old and they've spent an entire
year half of their lives. Yeah, I mean Nadine. I
have a one and a half year old who spent
the majority of his life in COVID. I took him
for his eighteen month well child visit. It was full
body sobbing for forty minutes. The nurse kept trying to
(17:01):
do his head circumference weigh him. He would not let
go of me. I was like, oh my gosh, he's
normally such a happy child. But I realized it was
the prospect of someone else touching him because he's never
had a plate eight. His interactions with most of his
family are on its screen in two dimensions. And the
nurse was like, Oh, don't worry, he's a COVID baby,
and I was like, oh my gosh. So the thing
(17:23):
I would say for that is he's going to have
to navigate a transition, and that transition is very likely
to be stressful and anxiety provoking. And you are that,
which of course makes my heart beat harder. To him like,
oh my gosh, you don't worry, girl, I got you.
It's okay, right, And this is a gift of being
(17:47):
a stress physiology researcher in my life is that that's
okay because we're not going to raise our kids in
a bubble where no bad thing ever happens. That hard
things happen, demics happen, people get sick, people pass away,
bad things happen in life. And what we have the
(18:07):
opportunity to do now in this moment is to teach
our kids how to regulate when something scary is happening.
And this is something that I've actually been doing an
incredible amount with my little ones around. Okay, well, what
do we do in this moment? This is really scary?
What do you do when you're scared? And you're not
(18:28):
going to say that to an eighteen month old, to
an eighteen month old, you're going to rub their back,
You're gonna hold on so you can say you're okay,
you're safe, and they navigate it and when they come
through it with our support, they're stronger for it. We
have the opportunity to teach them an incredibly important life skill.
How do we ground ourselves when we're in moments that
(18:50):
feel scary in topsy turvy. And we also, especially for
little ones, have the opportunity to teach them you are safe,
you're hey. So I think for those kids that have that,
and for those of us who are able to do
that for our kids, those kids are going to be great.
The kids I worry about, Yeah, that's my next question, Indie,
and how do we help support the kids who may
(19:13):
not have that safe place to return to. That's why
some of the things that we see coming out right now,
like for example, in the American Rescue Plan around financial
support for families with kids, cutting child poverty in half. Honestly,
that is where our communities and for us who are
(19:36):
in the role of making policies like this is where
we show up for families because I'm going to say,
we don't have a choice. We have been through one
of the biggest traumas in a century, and if we
do not support families, if if we're not supporting all
(19:59):
of us, we will see the toll. Because we know
that the type of things that folks have been through
is the type of stuff that makes a profound difference
on health and well being down the line for generations,
for generations without adequate buffering supports. So what we do
right now makes a world of difference. This pandemic has
(20:22):
widened the gap between the most advantaged and the most
disadvantaged Americans, and now is the moment we have to
implement these community wide solutions to be able to ensure
that everyone has a fair shot. Thank you so much, Nadine.
It's wonderful to see you and to talk with you today.
(20:46):
This has been awesome. Dr Nadine Burke Harris is the
Surgeon General of California. Her book is called The Deepest Well,
Healing the Long Term Effects of Childhood Adversity, and I
wanted to share a resource that she and her team
recently put together to raise awareness of adverse childhood experiences
and toxic stress. It's called the Number Story and you
(21:09):
can check it out at number story dot org. I
was very excited to speak with our next guest, Sesame
Street played a big part in my childhood and now
as a parent of three kids, and an even greater
appreciation for how skillfully their programs teach and entertain, all
(21:29):
while helping kids to understand their own experiences and emotions.
This has been especially valuable during the pandemic. This past December,
my kids and I watched the town hall Sesame Street
did with CNN called the A. B. C's of COVID nineteen.
Was comforting to see Big Bird asked the same questions
that so many of our kids have had about staying safe,
about feeling anxious and uncertain, and so much more. If
(21:52):
you missed it, you can find the whole thing on YouTube,
and I highly recommend it. Behind this and other great
Sesame programming is a team of researcher, educators, and creators.
That team includes today's guest Rosemarie Trulio. She's a Senior
vice President of Curriculum and Content at Sesame Workshop, which means,
among other things, she helps develop the educational curriculum that
(22:13):
Sesame Street is based on. I was thrilled to have
the chance to speak with her. Could you just as
a place to start, tell us what do you do
at Sesame Street and how did you first get involved.
I'm a developmental psychologist and my graduate studies involved the
influences of television on child development, looking at both the
(22:36):
positive effects and the not so positive effects, but really
focused on how to use media in children's lives that
will be beneficial because media is a part of children's lives.
And then I went to become a professor at Teachers College,
Columbia University, but always stayed connected to Sesame Workshop because
(23:00):
they are the gold standard of how to create educational
content for children, and not just children, the families and
individuals who are co engaging with their children with media.
And was given the opportunity to join the workshop in
and my job was twofold. One was to maintain and
(23:24):
develop the whole child curriculum that Sesame Street is based on.
It's a school readiness curriculum designed for children between the
ages of two to five, so getting them ready for school,
and to keep that curriculum dynamic because we're always looking
at what are the best practices, always identifying what are
the educational needs or the societal needs or the health
(23:48):
needs of children that we can then address in the
content that we're creating on Sesame Street. And most importantly,
to conduct the research with children. We actually go into
schools and go into homes and see how children are
reacting to our content. Are they finding an appealing Because
you can have the best content and if it's not
(24:09):
appealing to children and not watching it. We can't address
those educational needs and get those educational gains. And what
are they learning from the stories that we're creating. Are
they actually able to comprehend the messages that we are
intending for them to comprehend. So that's the basis of
my job. How do you take all of your research
(24:32):
and all of your kind of creativity and blend those
two together to create a new character or a storyline.
How does that process work? It starts with what is
a current need in child development? So there's an example
of this change that has occurred in all of our lives.
(24:55):
With COVID nineteen, we went into shutdown and this is
a huge instruction in the lives of children. And they're
no longer maintaining their regular routine. And we know children
need structure and they need a routine, and how do
we address all of their questions? So says to me,
(25:15):
here's an example of we have an opportunity not only
in our television show, but through our online content to
actually communicate with parents. So it starts with what are
the child development needs? What are the main messages? And
so for COVID nineteen, there are health messages. We want
(25:36):
to talk about germs, What are germs, what happens when
our body gets sick, but more importantly, what you can
do to avoid getting sick. So all of those practices,
wearing the mask, keeping distance, washing your hands, and creating
a song so that kids will have a song to
sing too, because we know that you need to wash
your hands for twenty seconds, Well what does mean to
(25:57):
a child? So singing a song helps. But then there
are all those social emotional components. I'm not going outside,
I'm not going to school, I'm not seeing my friends,
and I'm doing what we're calling these virtual play dates
and we're doing remote learning. We've done all that in
our house. So it does start with what are the
(26:19):
key messages, what are the key lessons that we want
to convey, and then working with creative and then figuring
out what are the best stories and how to portray
our characters in a way that is the same as
what the children are going through. So having Elma talk
(26:39):
about how he is staying connected with his friends through
a video chat, how Rosita is going to school remotely
and modeling that and for the special, which was a
family special, what was most important there is to give
children a sense of empowerment and a sense of hope. Right,
(27:03):
we want children to understand that they could do their part,
not only in keeping themselves healthy, but how they can
keep others around them healthy. And that's a really important
message for kids, especially when there's a lot of chaos
going on and you're losing a sense of that control.
Here is another tip to stay healthy. Wear a mask
(27:25):
in public to protect your self and others. Make sure
to wear it properly like this, This is not correct?
Like this? Yes, yes, yes. What are the simple things
that kids could do to feel that they are in control?
And not only that, but they have a purpose. So
(27:46):
when you tell a child you could help others stay healthy,
that's amazing. Think about that. I I could do that,
and that also helps them build resiliency and Rose ram
so struck by watching Sesame Street or reading books with
my kids, how much more discussion there is around feelings
(28:08):
than certainly I remember thirty five years ago when I
was a little kid. Can you just share how Sesame
thinks about your role in helping kids to be connected
to their mental health, helping them understand how to be
aware of maybe if they are starting to struggle and
feel like it's actually a sign of strength to ask
(28:31):
for help, but not weakness. It's so important for children
to an adults to ask for help, and for children,
it's about asking for help from an adult who they
feel safe with. So the importance of children to have
that sense of safety is critical for their overall growth
(28:57):
and development. The other message for children and adults is
that we all deal with a range of emotions and
sometimes we have these big feelings and you could have
multiple big feelings, but with really young children, those feelings
could be overwhelming because they don't know how to articulate
(29:22):
what they're feeling. So with really young children, the vocabulary
of emotions is critical, and that's why it's so important
for parents to have these talks and help them identify
how they're feeling and putting a label on it. The
next step is how do I manage this feeling. When
(29:44):
we think about school writing, as everyone says, oh, we've
got to know literacy and numerousy you need to know
your math and your letters and other academic skills. But
another critical school reading as skill is what we call
these executive function skills, these process skills, and one executive
function skill is how can I focus my attention right
(30:06):
now in coping with what I'm feeling, But more importantly,
how do I shift my attention away from this feeling
so I could move on? Now we're building resiliency skills.
So there's so many strategies that we are portraying and
our content that help children and families deal with these
big feelings. One example is taking a deep breath. Those
(30:28):
deep cleansing breaths are so important. Another activity is a
glitter jar. It's a jar with glitter and you shake
it up and it gives children something to focus on
as they're doing these deep breaths. So the swirling glitter
is those swirling emotions in what you're feeling, and as
you're breathing, you're focusing on the glitter falling to the
(30:51):
bottom of the jar. And when the glitter gets to
the bottom of the jar, you could see through that
jar clear. And that's an example of now I just
had a reset, and now I can talk about my feelings,
but more importantly, I could figure out how to move on.
What is the next step. I'm so curious if during
(31:12):
the pandemic you sessame has oriented even more toward parents,
to try to help equip parents with the right questions
and when we have answers, the right answers to support
kids in this moment that we're all still living through.
SYSME has been putting a lot of emphasis on parenting.
(31:34):
In fact, I wrote a book for parents called Ready
for School and It's a Parent's Guide to playful Learning
for children ages two to five. And the reason why
I wrote this book, no one is really explaining how
to how to help your child get ready for school,
or to deal with social emotional issues, or to deal
(31:56):
with health issues. And I often say to parents, sesame
Street with your child, because we, in many respects are
a parenting show. We have a human cast and we
have parents puppets, and we are modeling these interactions for
parents for how to talk to your child or how
(32:18):
to deal with whatever may be coming up in a
storyline which represents what is typically happen in children's lives.
So like, for instance, with COVID nineteen, parents felt the
extra pressure that now they have to become a teacher.
And what we were trying to say, the message we
were trying to give is that children learn best through
these everyday moments. What's most important is for parents to
(32:43):
embrace children's curiosity and not be afraid of questions and
not be afraid to say I don't know, but let's
find out together. To open up the learning as a
co learning experience is very liberating and playful, right, we
(33:04):
want parents to engage in playful learning. Was we're just
listening to. I was thinking about a conversation that I
had today with my two older kids, who are six
and four, over breakfast, and they were asking, again, when
are we going to be able to get vaccinated against
COVID nineteen? And I had to say, I don't know.
(33:25):
I don't know. It is strange for parents when we
are so used to having at least like most of
the answers or answers that are more complete than not
to just have to often continue to say sometimes daily,
sometimes now multiple times a day, I don't know, and
that's okay. It is something though, that I've had to
work on as a parent, like getting comfortable with saying
(33:46):
I don't know, and I think it's actually been good.
Fark It's be like, oh okay, right. But the other
thing that you are modeling is that you have a
positive approach to learning right, I don't know. Right now,
the scientists are looking to this. They are doing this
research to make sure that a vaccine, when it becomes available,
will be safe. And you are going to be reading
(34:09):
about this. You're going to be gathering information so that
you will one day know and you will then let
them know. And I think that's really important for children
to see us as adults that we are still learning.
Learning is lifelong, and we want to set at a
very young age this positive trajectory, this positive approach to learning,
(34:35):
which is why during the preschool years that sense of
wonder it's going away and we have to be very
mindful that it doesn't go away. We're taking a quick
break to stay with us. Now that COVID nineteen has
(35:04):
been classified as an adverse childhood experience or an ACE
for all kids. I know I'm not the only parent
who is worried about how the last fifteen sixteen months
could affect my kids over the next years of their lives,
(35:25):
even if kids are hopefully back in school vaccinated without masks.
You know, what advice do you have and how do
you think Sesame will deal with the ongoing ripple effects
of this even long after hopefully we're all back in school,
back together. You know, we have all dealt with a
lot in terms of the loss of loved ones, the
(35:47):
loss of jobs, so income has been affected, which then
leads to homelessness. Possibly it leads to food insecurity. And
Sesame has dealt with all of these topics with online materials.
Not every topic is appropriate in the children's program of
(36:10):
Sesame Street. And we dealt with nine eleven on Sesame Street.
We didn't deal with it directly as calling it nine eleven,
but we looked at what was going on in terms
of how children maybe dealing with the loss of a
loved one. So in that case, big Bird is dealing
with losing his newly adopted pet turtle who doesn't die,
(36:34):
but he goes back to his natural environment, but modeling
those strategies for how to handle the loss of someone.
Also in the case of nine eleven, having feelings about
people who looked Middle Eastern and that sense of shunning
someone because they don't look like you. In terms of
(36:56):
COVID nineteen and it now being classified as an adverse
childhood experience some children, yes, that is the case, right
because COVID nineteen led to the death of a loved one.
So these are big stressors in children's lives. Other children,
just the stress of losing my routine and being at
(37:19):
home and not having that social interaction with others. That
is hard. That's really hard for children. And now we're
asking them to do another shift. So first I was like,
we could go out, but we have to wear masks,
and we've got all these rules and regulations about six
ft apart. And now the masks are coming off if
you're vaccinated, So get another change. And I'm bringing up
(37:40):
these changes because flexibility is a really important component of
building resiliency skills, which is why mental health professionals were
saying there's a silver lining associated with COVID nineteen because
this is also giving us an opportunity to help our
(38:01):
children build those executive function skills, the ability to be
flexible and to adapt. That is helping them build resiliency skills.
And I think that is what we're doing on Sesame Street.
Throughout programming is really putting these social emotional skills at
the forefront, but not at the expense of the academic skills,
(38:24):
because when you really think about it, it's those positive
approaches to learning, don't give up, and how can I
be flexible and adapt and cope with my big feelings?
Is what is at the core the essential school readiness skills.
We also watch the Sesame streets in town hall and racism,
(38:46):
and I think it has been really important for SESAME
to do that work, and so just would be really
interested in hearing your thoughts on how that work relates
to your kind of mental health work at SESAME, Why
it has been so important for you to tackle these
big issues in a way that is age appropriate but
(39:08):
also sometimes searingly painful and honest as a way to
help support kids resilience and overall mental health and well being.
It does go back to understanding that when children are
asking questions, it's coming from an innocent place. It's coming
from a place of curiosity. So when children make observations
(39:31):
about race or make statements about race, parents are often
uncomfortable addressing their child's observation. A child may notice that
their friends skin color is different from his mother's skin color,
and we'll make that observation and just ask that question,
why is Johnny's skin color different from his mommy? And
(39:55):
often a parent would say, oh, no, we don't talk
about skin color. We're all the same on the inside.
When you dismiss a child's question because you are uncomfortable
answering it, you are now sending this message that they
asked the wrong question. And that goes back to helping
children have this positive approach to learning because they're coming
like I just want to know. Because young children are
(40:17):
just categorizing, right, They're trying to figure out how the
world works. They're not born racist. Racism is learned. So
on Sesame, we have decided, even though we have a
long history of showing diversity and inclusion and letting everyone
know that we all belong, we decided that we're going
(40:38):
to be much more explicit in talking about children's questions
about race, but more importantly to identify when there is
unfair behavior based on skin color, eye shape, hair texture,
or even their language that they speak or the accent
(41:00):
that they may have. And it gets back to mental
health because we want to empower children, so we want
to instill a positive self identity. So we want all
children to embrace their racial, ethnic and cultural identity and
to feel good about themselves, but more importantly learn about others.
(41:24):
Television can be a mirror. I want to be able
to see myself, but it's also a window for us
to see and to learn about others. And Sesame Street
takes us very seriously, and we want to teach children
about how they could do their part to be an upstander.
So when they do see someone being left out or
(41:49):
talked about in a mean way because of their race, ethnicity,
and culture, we want them to maybe they need to
go to a trusted adult and get some help if
they can, to say that is wrong, to stand up
and identify that is a wrong behavior, and to be
there as an ally in support of others when they
(42:10):
see this. Many years ago, we did a bullying show
with Big Bird where he was trying to join the
Good Birds Club and he's like, I'm a good bird.
I could be a part of the Good Birds Club,
but they were keeping him out because the club was
comprised of small blue birds and he doesn't fit. He
is an eight foot two yellow bird with very large feet,
(42:32):
and so they were picking on his physical appearance as
a way of keeping him out. And we modeled what
it means to be an upstander in that particular episode.
While Elmo and Abby were trying to do their part,
they needed to bring in a trusted adult. They brought
in Chris to help them. I think, just as a
final question, it would be good to hear, like, what
(42:54):
advice do you have for the adults of small people
to help those small people navigate through the still uncertain
times over the months ahead, looking toward hopefully being back
in school in the autumn. How do we help prepare
kids for that? And of course always help kids know
that they can talk to us about their feelings, about
their excitement and their anxiety alike. I think the message
(43:18):
is as adults parents, we got to take care of ourselves.
We really have to do the right things to make
sure that we're in check so that we can keep
our children in check. If we're anxious, they're picking up
on our anxiety. The other message is children want to
be connected to us and to really to be present
(43:41):
when they are connecting with us, and that means answering
their questions as best as you can and really truly
listen to their question. I think that's another thing that
parents make. The mistake the child may ask a question
and the parents will go off and give way too
much information right truly listen to what that question is
(44:03):
and give a nugget of information and then see what
the next question it is. But to give them all
this information is overwhelming and can cause anxiety. We are
going to be a bit anxious probably in this new
year going back to school, because there's going to be
so many changes, and that's where those resiliency skills come in.
Empower children, give them a sense of I can and
(44:28):
so if it is about going back to school the
weeks prior, maybe we'll do some role play and help
them understand what it's like to have those social interactions. Again,
I think we're all a bit anxious. We don't know
how to interact socially anymore. We haven't done that. I
definitely don't, But I guess the bottom line is that
(44:49):
we want to give children a sense of hope and
to praise them for what they have accomplished. We just
got through this over a year of change and we
are adapting, and we should be praising these positive midlestones.
We've achieved a lot, we've learned a lot, and we've
achieved a lot, and these are skills that are just
(45:11):
helping us overall be flexible and adaptable as we move
forward because there's something else that's going to happen. Life
is constantly sending us curveballs, and how we handle the
curveballs is what is critical in helping children build these
resubiliency skills and better mental health because of these skills
(45:33):
and strategies. My grandmother had an added that life is
not about what happens to you, It's about what you
do with what happens to you. So after having listened
to you, I really feel like she was probably onto
something very wise. Grandmother. Thank you so much for your time,
thank of your work, and I'm excited to see what's
next for Sesame. Thank you, Thank you. Chelsea. Rosemary Julio's
(45:59):
book Saspice Street Ready for School, a parent's guide to
playful Learning for children's ages two to five, is a
great resource. You can also find lots of wonderful materials.
I'm talking with kids about the COVID nineteen pandemic and
so much more at Sesame Street dot org slash caring.
The pandemic has posed unique challenges for anyone caring for children,
(46:20):
whether that's teachers, parents, relatives, or anyone else. As adults,
it's been our job to be calm and reassuring even
when we might be overwhelmed, unsure, grieving or scared. We
have our work cut out for us when it comes
to helping kids, whether this drama, and just like for adults,
mental health can't be an afterthought for kids. But as
(46:41):
we heard from Nadine and Rosemary, there's a lot we
can do. That includes making sure all caretakers have the
support that they need, housing, healthy and affordable food, healthcare,
the ability to navigate work and family responsibilities, and so
much more. And it also includes taking care of our
own well being so that we can be there for
the kids who are counting on us. And finally, it
(47:03):
includes something I still struggle with all the time, getting
comfortable that we don't have all the answers for the
questions that kids are asking, and that sometimes we need
to say I don't know, We're going to figure it out.
In Fact is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
We're produced by Erica Goodmanson, Lauren Peterson, Kathy Russo, Julie Subrian,
(47:24):
and Justin Wright, with help from the Hidden Light team
of Barry Lurry, Sarah Horowitz, Nikki Huggett, Emily Young and
hum Abite with additional support from Lindsay Hoffman. Original music
is by Justin Wright. If you liked this episode of
In Fact, please make sure to subscribe so you never
miss an episode, and tell your family and friends to
do the same. If you really want to help us out,
(47:46):
leave us our review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks again for listening,
and see you next week.
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