March 8, 2022 • 26 mins
This week, Chelsea is sitting down with world-renowned designer and activist Stella McCartney to look at women in the fashion industry – the progress we’ve made toward equality and what needs to happen next.
For more than twenty years, Stella McCartney has been running her own label and designing using environmentally-friendly practices and sustainable fabrics. From the very beginning, Stella has not used leather or any animal skin, feathers, or fur in her designs and she’s looked to reduce waste. Now, she is pushing the entire industry toward a higher standard of sustainable practice. And this month, Stella is debuting an outfit for the one and only Minnie Mouse. After almost a century wearing a dress, Minnie will be donning an original, deep blue Stella McCartney pantsuit – marking International Women’s Day and the 30th Anniversary of Disneyland Paris.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton. And this season on in fact,
we're celebrating Women's History Month. I'll be talking with trailblazing
women at the top of their fields about their personal journeys,
the progress we've made, and how far we still have
to go. Today, we're discussing women in the fashion industry
(00:22):
with someone who has her own brand, is unflinchingly committed
to designing sustainably, is a fierce advocate, and my dear friend,
Stella McCartney. At first glance, many would say fashion is
a woman's world. Women make up the vast majority of
major's at fashion schools and buyers of fashion, and yet
according to the Business of Fashion, women run only a
(00:44):
few of the top fifty fashion brands, less than fifteen
of them iconic brand or didn't have a female creative
director until Van She didn't have one until and as
we often see in other industries, brands tend to choose
women supporting positions creatively and on the business side, rather
than starring roles. But for more than twenty years, Stella
(01:07):
McCartney has been running her own label, designing using environmentally
friendly practices and sustainable fabrics from the very beginning Stell
has not used leather, any animal skin, feathers, or fur
in her designs, and she's looked to reduce waste. Now
she's pushing the entire industry towards a higher standard of
sustainable practice. As Stella says, she is begging for government
(01:28):
regulation of the fashion industry, an industry that accounts for
roughly ten of the world's annual greenhouse gas emissions and
twenty percent of wastewater. For context, that's more than the
entire shipping and aviation industries combined. Stella got her start
in fashion at sixteen is an intern at Christian Laqui.
From there, she went on to learn traditional men's tailoring
(01:50):
on Savo Row, and after finishing her design degree at
Central St. Martin's, she became the creative director of the
Parisian fashion house Chloe. Just four years later, before she
turned thirty, Stella left Chloe to launch her own house
and a joint venture with the Gucci Group, and showed
her first collection under her own name in the fall
of two thousand and one. Seventeen years later, still A
(02:10):
bought out her partners and still remains the majority stakeholder
of her brand of business today. Stella McCartney's brand is
more than clothing for women. Encompasses everything from women's in
unisex ready to wear, to accessories, to kids clothing, to
a performance wear, a collaboration with Adidas, and this month,
Stella's debuting an outfit for the one and only Many Mouse,
(02:32):
after almost a century wearing a dress, Many will be
donning an original deep blue Stella McCartney pantsuit marking today's
International Women's Day and the thirtie anniversary of Disneyland Paris. Stella,
thank you so much for joining me today. I'm very,
very honored to be here. I, as you know, have
(02:53):
long admired you for so much, especially your commitment to sustainability.
I know you always wanted to be a designer, but
did you all always want to bring sustainability into your designs.
I knew at a very young age that I wanted
to be a fashion designer, and I didn't intentionally come
into my career in design with sustainability at the kind
(03:15):
of core of it. I just wanted to be a
fashion designer. I went to Central St Martin's in London,
I studied, I just worked from day one on on
that kind of goal. But I guess my point of
difference and which led me to the sustainability kind of
piece of my story was that I've grown up as
a lifelong vegetarian. I grew up on an organic farm
in England with quite outspoken and change agent parents. So
(03:40):
I never ever worked with fur or leather. And where
you told you had to, like when you were at
school or where you were a young designer, did people
say like, you are narrowing yourself if you don't work
with fur, if you don't work with leather. I definitely
have had many moments in my career, weirdly latter on
in my career when it is even more obvious and
(04:03):
ridiculous to suggest that I would start using leather or fur,
and I have had people. Yeah, even one of my
own previous CEOs was like, look, if you know, if
we want to have a bad business, which is what
every luxury fashion house exists upon, really you know, having
considered working with real leather, or might you do this
or might you do that? So it wasn't pointed out
to me that I had to do that, but it
(04:24):
is the rule of the industry that those are the
materials that you work with in certainly in luxury, and
they're kind of the backbone of the business. Really, they're
the business drivers. So I always knew that I was
definitely stirring up a little bit of controversy. I was
just kind of convinced that there was another way that
I could do it, and that you wouldn't notice that
(04:47):
my handbags weren't made out of real leather or dead animals,
as the case may be, that you wouldn't sacrifice the
luxury or the design in order to have a much
more sort of kinder and sustainable, loving product. And you
spoke about how even sometimes your own CEO s would
doubt you, and I'm assuming it was probably a heat
given how much of the fashion industry historically has been
(05:12):
male dominated, and certainly when you started out, you were
one of the only women at the head of her
own label. Where do you think the fashion industry is today,
both on the creative side and the business side for women.
I'm sad to say there's still very few female design is,
certainly with their name on the door. Having said that,
(05:35):
there are millions of extraordinary women behind the scenes and
side by side, working and striving and building the business
of fashion. For sure, the majority of my businesses women.
In fact, I was showing a friend around only yesterday
and I was like, Hey, meet all my girls, and
I was like, oh my god, are there any men
on my floor? Is one guy? You know, it's like, oh, oh, dear,
(05:58):
I should we get some more guys? And it is
a male world still. You know, a lot of the
seats at the table are taken up by men. And
it's not to say that men aren't great and that
men don't do a fantastic job, but you know, there's
definitely a lot of work to be done in the
business of fashion for that level of equality really an acceptance,
which is strange considering the majority of the businesses to
(06:20):
dress women. And so for me, one of my biggest
privileges and one of the things that really made me
want to be a fashion designer was to make women
feel better about themselves and the privilege of being a
woman designing for women and having that deeper understanding of
what we needed and what we want. So, do you
think we've made any progress since you started twenty years
ago in terms of women? Yeah, I think we're making
(06:44):
progress in all fields because we are now allowed to
have this conversation, and it is as we know, World
Women's Month, and these things are now very much they're
not to boo conversations. We don't have to be embarrassed
about the fact that we haven't had equality in any
form really as women two men. And I think that
definitely in business now people are much more aware of
(07:06):
having diversity, having a kind of much cleaner standard in
that sense. So there is change, but I think on
the whole, if we're really going to be honest, the
majority of women are still not in the room, and
they're not even educated to get in the room. They're
not even allowed to leave the house to get educated
to be in the room. So there's still a huge
amount of work to be done, sadly, And so when
(07:28):
young designers or kind of anyone in the creative spaces
that you inhabit come and ask for advice, say, you know,
how do I get comfortable being maybe the first and
the only woman in the room. What advice do you
give Stella? Well, I think it's such a fascinating question,
and I think that you know, I'm of a generation
(07:50):
where I was still slightly apologetic for the fact that
I was a woman, or I had to overcompensate. I
had to be more masculine in my board meetings. I
had to And did you dress that way too? Think
it affected how you dressed. No, it didn't really affect
the way I dressed, because I've always had this kind
of weirdly my work is very much this play on
the man and the woman. So I have a ton
of tailoring and I have a ton of kind of
(08:11):
more feminine pieces, and it's that tension that I find
personally really interesting. But I do think there was for
sure a moment in my career where my suits that
were more inspired by my work in Savoreau in London
and the years that I trained in making men's suits
where I was one of the few designers that had
that more masculine kind of tailoring in their range, and
(08:34):
it was really liberating for women. They would always tell me,
especially women that are in those traditional male lead roles
like in banking or financing or law, they really loved
that they could wear those suits and it wasn't like
these kind of women's suits that they had to wear
a skirt. You skirt suits and a kind of very
conventional look. But I definitely as a woman in business
(08:56):
in the business of fashion, I have been very many
times in an awkward room situation where I've been very
aware of my gender and having to either undercompensate, did,
in my light, overcompensate play the role of being a
more sort of girly girl. I can definitely admit that,
but I never at any stage felt that it was
something that led any of my decision making. If anything,
(09:19):
it probably made me a little more determined to prove
people wrong. It's funny. I was thinking, actually only yesterday
and I think, oh my god, did that really happen
to me. I remember when I was leaving a job
and I won't mention the job, and I remember this
guy who was really really high up in this this
fashion firm, was trying to get me to stay in
the role, and I was like, no, look, you know
(09:41):
it's time for me to move on. I'm really excited
to do something else. And I kept timing to say no,
like that you wouldn't accept no for an answer. So
it took a few meetings and it doesn't matter that
was a guara woman that that happens. But on the
final meeting where I was like, look, I'm so sorry,
I'm really honored, but the answer is no, and I'm
going to move on. And as I left, he he
lookeally and said, you name me one female designer that
(10:02):
has her name on the door. You name one female
designer that has a brand. And I remember getting so
far like, I'm so furious that he dared to say
that that I mentioned a handful of In fact, he said,
name me one British female designer, and there are a
lot less, you know, I have to admit, but it
just really put fire in my belly. And actually I
(10:24):
kind of can say I can almost thank him for
being so ridiculously outdated and stupid. In fact, it actually
I thank him for that because it could have fire
in my belly. Not everyone Stella would have the resilience
to be inspired by that horrific sexism. For some women,
(10:45):
they might have had a different reaction and might have
gotten smaller instead of larger. I feel very privileged and
proud to be a woman that's founded a fashion brand
that's still here, and that's founded on great ethics and
is a conscious brand and a kind brand, and at
the same time hopefully a really cool, fashionable, edgy, dreamy brand.
(11:07):
I feel very much the responsibility of being a woman
that employs other women. A lot of the women that
worked for me a mother's they're bringing home also, you know,
the majority of the wage packet. And so it is
a really fascinating moment I find in my business talking
to my teams about things like that, we'll be right back,
(11:28):
stay with us, And you don't just feel responsible for
your team, You feel responsible, I think it's fair to
say for your industry, and you know, and part of
that responsibility is manifested in helping mentor others in sustainability
(11:54):
and that it isn't actually necessary to use leather to
design beautiful handbags. But also and saying that the fashion
industry itself needs to be regulated. Why do you think
that's important? Policies is critical because we're one of the
most responsible industries for climate damage and we have a
massive negative impact on the environment, and there is no
(12:15):
policing of the industry. And so I'm a huge advocate
of trying to encourage policy change, encouraged incentives for young
designers or even established design houses to actually be more sustainable.
What does that look like? You know, I at the moment,
I'm penalized for working in the way that I work.
So for example, I take a non leather good into
(12:37):
America and I'm charged tax just on that non leather bag,
for example, Whereas if I put a sliver of pig
leather onto the same bag, the tax disappears. So I'm
actually penalized for working in this way. And you hundred
and fifty million trees are cut down a year for
ray On, and I don't think most people know that,
(12:57):
even people in my industry don't know that. I think
most people I think Rayon is made out of plastic
or out of synthetic yarm, but it's made out of
wood pulp. And so you know, we at Stella have
taken three years to source a sustainable wood fiber in
Sweden and take that same fiber, which is sustainable, to
the same mills. I'm really invested in the side of
(13:18):
the business that is really trying to create solutions. I
have to apologize to everyone listening to this for the
amount of dog barking that will happen as a working mother.
The children are coming home and the dogs are barking.
So you know, at least we're keeping it real over
here in London always, But there is so much work
to be done in the fashion industry, the sourcing that
(13:39):
I do, acquaints for the positive impact that I have environmentally,
and so, you know, I have so much knowledge and
I want to share that, and I am sharing that
with so many people in other companies. But if we
don't have a level of policy change, and if we
don't have very simple laws and legislations coming into just
as they do in the automobile industry, we know that
(14:00):
cars are going electric, we know that they have a
timeline to do so we know that the car companies
wouldn't be going electric if it were not for those
rules and regulations and laws, and you know they will
get penalties if they don't reach that guideline. Similar things
like that do need to come into my industry and
it will only help the industry and certainly help the
future generations on Earth. And this is something you're talking
(14:24):
about not just in your country, but also here in
the United States and on a global stage. Yeah, Oh,
it's it's an absolutely a global issue. And last year
I went to the G seven summit, and I was
with your president and with many other world leaders, and
actually only two women in the room other than myself.
The Queen and merkel Um but and there were a
(14:45):
lot of people talking about aviation and about energy and
all these different huge industries that have a really big
part to play in the environment. I was there as
the one of these few people actually that owned a
company that was in the business and representing the fashion industry,
and I sort of said to him when I was like,
you know, it is easier to set a regulation on
(15:06):
an aviation. You know, on aviation there's maybe six, seven,
ten brands that you're having to put into line. I
feel like there's billions of fashion brands. There's so many,
and obviously fast fashion is a killer. Every single second
a chuckload of fast fashion is burnt or buried, sometimes
worn maximum three times before it's just discarded, which actually
(15:29):
equates to like five billions worth of waste. But these numbers,
these are business opportunities. This is like where we can
create an inspire brand, new recycling businesses, renting businesses. There's
so many amazing things that can come of this problem
that we have. But we definitely need to support from
governments to unite the industry well. And certainly I hope
(15:52):
if any kind of young aspiring designers are listening. They
will take you seriously at your mention of what an
opportunity there should be. I think the young designers now
it's a given. No, you can't walk into a room
and expect to be supported or be invested in if
you don't have some kind of sustainable story. It is
the youth that will solve these problems, I hope, but
(16:15):
they have to have the support of government. There has
to be some form of game changing going on to
really help this next generation of designers or just business people.
You know, there are so many different facets of the
fashion industry. It's one of the few industries that kind
of touches on every industry. We're taking a quick break,
(16:38):
stay with us well. An area that your fashion has
touched recently is mini mouths, which I was incredibly excited
to see, partly because my children are little younger than
(17:00):
your children, so we're kind of right in any and
everything Disney related. And so I just so curious still
it you designed a pant suit for her. How did
that come about? Why do you think it's important that
Minnie is wearing a pant suit at this moment in time.
It's to celebrate International Women's Month, and it is a
(17:20):
collaboration between myself and Mini. Essentially, she told me what
she wanted. She was fed up of wearing dresses as
a rule, and we got together. We had a couple
of late nights. She likes to drink very good red wine.
I found out great something else we haven't come in
a couple of tequila shots, and we came up with
this pants suit. Um No, it was just a moment
to celebrate change and celebrate really during the line in
(17:45):
the sand. It's just such a ridiculous kind of historical
you know, she wears the heels and the skirt and
the guy wears the pants, you know, and that it
isn't the case as we know anymore, and it certainly
isn't the case anymore with many I'm very proud to say,
became up with a few options. It turned out that
the polka dots kind of fitted into her world, and
(18:09):
I just wanted to kind of mute it down and
have these beautiful blues and blacks and I think slightly
modernized her wardrobe, but also to keep it cheek and timeless.
I think that's the important part of this kind of project.
And so, do you have a hope for what the
impact will be. Well, I kind of love that everyone
was super angry about it. I didn't see that coming
(18:29):
at all, so I was thrilled. I have to say
that everyone was so up in arms and hugely disturbed
that minis and pants. Your mother was very supportive and
that was very sweet of her. But I'm glad it
got the attention because it's for the right reasons. And
you know, the fact that it would even be of
conversation is quite mind blowing to me now. But you know,
(18:51):
mini mouths and trousers, is that revolutionary? I remember a
few years ago when also a lot of people, at
least on the internet, we're very upset when a black
actress was cast as Ariel and the live action Little Mermaid. God,
I can't marry. I mean, it was really even surprising
(19:11):
to me how many people were attached to the lily white,
redheaded cartoon version of Ariel from the late nineteen eighties,
whereas I was always more upset that she gave her
voice away for a man. So again one of those
moments where I was like, oh, we are upset about
different things. Yeah, you know, we have so far to go,
(19:33):
and it's sad Really, I realized now more than ever
how liberal my upbringing was and how there's no judgment,
and that was probably the greatest privilege that I grew
up with open minds and open hearts, and I mean,
there isn't anything better than that, right. Evolution takes longer
than we think. Sadly, Ideally we're all evolving, but sometimes
(19:54):
it feels like we are collectively devolving. We've talked about
the fashion industries impact on the environment and responsibility hopefully
to having a more kind of positive impact in the future.
But now you know, more than twenty years into helming,
you know your own brand. What do you think the
industry's responsibility is towards how women but also men see
(20:17):
themselves and how young women and young men think about
their bodies, think about the space that they take up
in the world, hopefully in a positive sense and not
in a negative one. Well, hey, you know, I think
that comes back to me being a mother of four kids,
two boys, two girls, and that's where it hits home
for me the most. There are two sides. There's no
(20:40):
doubt that we still have so much work to do,
and there's no doubt that we're not deeply insecure, fragile creatures.
I think humans are the weirdest animals on earth. And
you know, the other animals are kind of kicking it back,
and they're they're kind of going with what comes in
that truly to them. And we're just disrupting and interrupting
(21:03):
and damaging so many things. And we live in a
day and age where there is a lot of information
and it is being funneled to us in a variety
of manners also, and we're insecure. We've been told we
will feel better about ourselves mentally and emotionally if we
look better, or if we can fit into these genes,
(21:24):
or we can walk down the street and have something
to look at us in a certain way. We can
get x amount of likes on on our devices, and
we live in this day and age that is heightened.
It's it's very, very heightened. And for me, the main
main thing is trying to encourage definitely a quality. You know,
when I'm at home around the kitchen table, opening up
uncomfortable conversations, checking in with people and checking in with
(21:48):
my customers and sort of saying, look, how are you feeling?
How can it make you feel better? Like all I
want to do is make you feel better about yourself,
you know, and that really is the key. I think
talking is iCal and I'm even I'm as bad as anything.
I'm addicted to my device. It's more work related, I
have to admit, But you know, the idea to actually
kind of reduce our time on these things and take
(22:11):
more time to be together as families and communities and
help each other, you know. I think being kinder is
a great start. I like to think that we're a
kind brand at Stella McCartney. I think it can be
cool to be kind. I think it has to be.
It's the only way forward. Still, the last question, is
there kind of one statistic or fact about women kind
(22:35):
of in fashion that you find either inspiring about how
much progress has been made or enraging about how much
progress has yet to be made. I found out recently
that of businesses in the US are women owned. So
there's sort of statistics like that that start to fill
(22:56):
you with just great hope and encourage you. And you know,
you know that that must have only just happened. Is huge,
and I'm sure only moments ago it was twenty or
ten or five or zero, So I think heading in
the right direction is so encouraging. And I think we
all know that the next generations of young women now
(23:17):
are watching, They're eager. They feel much more permission, I think,
to own it. I mean, I definitely see that in
my own daughters, there's no question. But you've got to
believe in yourself and you've got to get in that room.
You've got to fight. You have got to fight still.
For every great statistic you here are every really encouraging
kind of story that you you get hold of, there's
(23:39):
another one in the back of the room that's like
reminds you that we've still got a lot to do.
I love that with such fans of women, I absolutely
I'm sure I'm not allowed to swear on this podcast,
but I absolutely love women. I think we're the fucking goolest.
But you know, the other thing is I love men too.
Like you know, I don't want my sons to feel
alienated from the conversation or feel guilty, like feel bad
(24:01):
when they haven't done anything, but I do always whenever
the conversation comes up, I'm still in the corner of like,
you know what, guys, I'm sorry if if anyone has
to take the bullet for what happened in the past,
but it's still going on to levels that you just
have no idea. I work on a lot of kind
of women's charities with violence, and just globally it's dark.
(24:23):
You know, there's a lot of darkness going on still
for women. So we just can't forget it when we're
sitting in a culture that it has moved forward at
a greater speed. Thank God, well still, thank you, thank
you for your time today, but most of all, thank
you for proving what's possible for women in fashion, for
sustainability in fashion, for many Mouse. I'm incredibly grateful for
(24:45):
your time, especially given the dog barking and the children
ground apologize for the doors slamming and they never have
to apologize for like, there's nothing glamorous over here. I
might be in fashion, but there ain't no glamor involved.
And here's too old of the women this month, go
kick us girls, amen. You can find Stella McCartney on
(25:13):
Instagram at Stella McCartney and if you can't make it
to Paris to see Many in person, you can find
her and her T shirt online at Stella McCartney dot com.
In fact, is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
We are produced by a mighty group of women and
one amazing man, Erica Goodmanson, Mart Harror, Sarah Horowitz, Jessmine
(25:34):
Molly and Justin Wright, with help from Lindsay Hoffman, Barry Laurie,
Joyce Kuban, Julie Supran, Mike Taylor, and Emily Young. Original
music is by Justin Wright. If you like this episode
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(26:01):
Time
Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton. And this season on in fact,
we're celebrating Women's History Month. I'll be talking with trailblazing
women at the top of their fields about their personal journeys,
the progress we've made, and how far we still have
to go. Today, we're discussing women in the fashion industry
(00:22):
with someone who has her own brand, is unflinchingly committed
to designing sustainably, is a fierce advocate, and my dear friend,
Stella McCartney. At first glance, many would say fashion is
a woman's world. Women make up the vast majority of
major's at fashion schools and buyers of fashion, and yet
according to the Business of Fashion, women run only a
(00:44):
few of the top fifty fashion brands, less than fifteen
of them iconic brand or didn't have a female creative
director until Van She didn't have one until and as
we often see in other industries, brands tend to choose
women supporting positions creatively and on the business side, rather
than starring roles. But for more than twenty years, Stella
(01:07):
McCartney has been running her own label, designing using environmentally
friendly practices and sustainable fabrics from the very beginning Stell
has not used leather, any animal skin, feathers, or fur
in her designs, and she's looked to reduce waste. Now
she's pushing the entire industry towards a higher standard of
sustainable practice. As Stella says, she is begging for government
(01:28):
regulation of the fashion industry, an industry that accounts for
roughly ten of the world's annual greenhouse gas emissions and
twenty percent of wastewater. For context, that's more than the
entire shipping and aviation industries combined. Stella got her start
in fashion at sixteen is an intern at Christian Laqui.
From there, she went on to learn traditional men's tailoring
(01:50):
on Savo Row, and after finishing her design degree at
Central St. Martin's, she became the creative director of the
Parisian fashion house Chloe. Just four years later, before she
turned thirty, Stella left Chloe to launch her own house
and a joint venture with the Gucci Group, and showed
her first collection under her own name in the fall
of two thousand and one. Seventeen years later, still A
(02:10):
bought out her partners and still remains the majority stakeholder
of her brand of business today. Stella McCartney's brand is
more than clothing for women. Encompasses everything from women's in
unisex ready to wear, to accessories, to kids clothing, to
a performance wear, a collaboration with Adidas, and this month,
Stella's debuting an outfit for the one and only Many Mouse,
(02:32):
after almost a century wearing a dress, Many will be
donning an original deep blue Stella McCartney pantsuit marking today's
International Women's Day and the thirtie anniversary of Disneyland Paris. Stella,
thank you so much for joining me today. I'm very,
very honored to be here. I, as you know, have
(02:53):
long admired you for so much, especially your commitment to sustainability.
I know you always wanted to be a designer, but
did you all always want to bring sustainability into your designs.
I knew at a very young age that I wanted
to be a fashion designer, and I didn't intentionally come
into my career in design with sustainability at the kind
(03:15):
of core of it. I just wanted to be a
fashion designer. I went to Central St Martin's in London,
I studied, I just worked from day one on on
that kind of goal. But I guess my point of
difference and which led me to the sustainability kind of
piece of my story was that I've grown up as
a lifelong vegetarian. I grew up on an organic farm
in England with quite outspoken and change agent parents. So
(03:40):
I never ever worked with fur or leather. And where
you told you had to, like when you were at
school or where you were a young designer, did people
say like, you are narrowing yourself if you don't work
with fur, if you don't work with leather. I definitely
have had many moments in my career, weirdly latter on
in my career when it is even more obvious and
(04:03):
ridiculous to suggest that I would start using leather or fur,
and I have had people. Yeah, even one of my
own previous CEOs was like, look, if you know, if
we want to have a bad business, which is what
every luxury fashion house exists upon, really you know, having
considered working with real leather, or might you do this
or might you do that? So it wasn't pointed out
to me that I had to do that, but it
(04:24):
is the rule of the industry that those are the
materials that you work with in certainly in luxury, and
they're kind of the backbone of the business. Really, they're
the business drivers. So I always knew that I was
definitely stirring up a little bit of controversy. I was
just kind of convinced that there was another way that
I could do it, and that you wouldn't notice that
(04:47):
my handbags weren't made out of real leather or dead animals,
as the case may be, that you wouldn't sacrifice the
luxury or the design in order to have a much
more sort of kinder and sustainable, loving product. And you
spoke about how even sometimes your own CEO s would
doubt you, and I'm assuming it was probably a heat
given how much of the fashion industry historically has been
(05:12):
male dominated, and certainly when you started out, you were
one of the only women at the head of her
own label. Where do you think the fashion industry is today,
both on the creative side and the business side for women.
I'm sad to say there's still very few female design is,
certainly with their name on the door. Having said that,
(05:35):
there are millions of extraordinary women behind the scenes and
side by side, working and striving and building the business
of fashion. For sure, the majority of my businesses women.
In fact, I was showing a friend around only yesterday
and I was like, Hey, meet all my girls, and
I was like, oh my god, are there any men
on my floor? Is one guy? You know, it's like, oh, oh, dear,
(05:58):
I should we get some more guys? And it is
a male world still. You know, a lot of the
seats at the table are taken up by men. And
it's not to say that men aren't great and that
men don't do a fantastic job, but you know, there's
definitely a lot of work to be done in the
business of fashion for that level of equality really an acceptance,
which is strange considering the majority of the businesses to
(06:20):
dress women. And so for me, one of my biggest
privileges and one of the things that really made me
want to be a fashion designer was to make women
feel better about themselves and the privilege of being a
woman designing for women and having that deeper understanding of
what we needed and what we want. So, do you
think we've made any progress since you started twenty years
ago in terms of women? Yeah, I think we're making
(06:44):
progress in all fields because we are now allowed to
have this conversation, and it is as we know, World
Women's Month, and these things are now very much they're
not to boo conversations. We don't have to be embarrassed
about the fact that we haven't had equality in any
form really as women two men. And I think that
definitely in business now people are much more aware of
(07:06):
having diversity, having a kind of much cleaner standard in
that sense. So there is change, but I think on
the whole, if we're really going to be honest, the
majority of women are still not in the room, and
they're not even educated to get in the room. They're
not even allowed to leave the house to get educated
to be in the room. So there's still a huge
amount of work to be done, sadly, And so when
(07:28):
young designers or kind of anyone in the creative spaces
that you inhabit come and ask for advice, say, you know,
how do I get comfortable being maybe the first and
the only woman in the room. What advice do you
give Stella? Well, I think it's such a fascinating question,
and I think that you know, I'm of a generation
(07:50):
where I was still slightly apologetic for the fact that
I was a woman, or I had to overcompensate. I
had to be more masculine in my board meetings. I
had to And did you dress that way too? Think
it affected how you dressed. No, it didn't really affect
the way I dressed, because I've always had this kind
of weirdly my work is very much this play on
the man and the woman. So I have a ton
of tailoring and I have a ton of kind of
(08:11):
more feminine pieces, and it's that tension that I find
personally really interesting. But I do think there was for
sure a moment in my career where my suits that
were more inspired by my work in Savoreau in London
and the years that I trained in making men's suits
where I was one of the few designers that had
that more masculine kind of tailoring in their range, and
(08:34):
it was really liberating for women. They would always tell me,
especially women that are in those traditional male lead roles
like in banking or financing or law, they really loved
that they could wear those suits and it wasn't like
these kind of women's suits that they had to wear
a skirt. You skirt suits and a kind of very
conventional look. But I definitely as a woman in business
(08:56):
in the business of fashion, I have been very many
times in an awkward room situation where I've been very
aware of my gender and having to either undercompensate, did,
in my light, overcompensate play the role of being a
more sort of girly girl. I can definitely admit that,
but I never at any stage felt that it was
something that led any of my decision making. If anything,
(09:19):
it probably made me a little more determined to prove
people wrong. It's funny. I was thinking, actually only yesterday
and I think, oh my god, did that really happen
to me. I remember when I was leaving a job
and I won't mention the job, and I remember this
guy who was really really high up in this this
fashion firm, was trying to get me to stay in
the role, and I was like, no, look, you know
(09:41):
it's time for me to move on. I'm really excited
to do something else. And I kept timing to say no,
like that you wouldn't accept no for an answer. So
it took a few meetings and it doesn't matter that
was a guara woman that that happens. But on the
final meeting where I was like, look, I'm so sorry,
I'm really honored, but the answer is no, and I'm
going to move on. And as I left, he he
lookeally and said, you name me one female designer that
(10:02):
has her name on the door. You name one female
designer that has a brand. And I remember getting so
far like, I'm so furious that he dared to say
that that I mentioned a handful of In fact, he said,
name me one British female designer, and there are a
lot less, you know, I have to admit, but it
just really put fire in my belly. And actually I
(10:24):
kind of can say I can almost thank him for
being so ridiculously outdated and stupid. In fact, it actually
I thank him for that because it could have fire
in my belly. Not everyone Stella would have the resilience
to be inspired by that horrific sexism. For some women,
(10:45):
they might have had a different reaction and might have
gotten smaller instead of larger. I feel very privileged and
proud to be a woman that's founded a fashion brand
that's still here, and that's founded on great ethics and
is a conscious brand and a kind brand, and at
the same time hopefully a really cool, fashionable, edgy, dreamy brand.
(11:07):
I feel very much the responsibility of being a woman
that employs other women. A lot of the women that
worked for me a mother's they're bringing home also, you know,
the majority of the wage packet. And so it is
a really fascinating moment I find in my business talking
to my teams about things like that, we'll be right back,
(11:28):
stay with us, And you don't just feel responsible for
your team, You feel responsible, I think it's fair to
say for your industry, and you know, and part of
that responsibility is manifested in helping mentor others in sustainability
(11:54):
and that it isn't actually necessary to use leather to
design beautiful handbags. But also and saying that the fashion
industry itself needs to be regulated. Why do you think
that's important? Policies is critical because we're one of the
most responsible industries for climate damage and we have a
massive negative impact on the environment, and there is no
(12:15):
policing of the industry. And so I'm a huge advocate
of trying to encourage policy change, encouraged incentives for young
designers or even established design houses to actually be more sustainable.
What does that look like? You know, I at the moment,
I'm penalized for working in the way that I work.
So for example, I take a non leather good into
(12:37):
America and I'm charged tax just on that non leather bag,
for example, Whereas if I put a sliver of pig
leather onto the same bag, the tax disappears. So I'm
actually penalized for working in this way. And you hundred
and fifty million trees are cut down a year for
ray On, and I don't think most people know that,
(12:57):
even people in my industry don't know that. I think
most people I think Rayon is made out of plastic
or out of synthetic yarm, but it's made out of
wood pulp. And so you know, we at Stella have
taken three years to source a sustainable wood fiber in
Sweden and take that same fiber, which is sustainable, to
the same mills. I'm really invested in the side of
(13:18):
the business that is really trying to create solutions. I
have to apologize to everyone listening to this for the
amount of dog barking that will happen as a working mother.
The children are coming home and the dogs are barking.
So you know, at least we're keeping it real over
here in London always, But there is so much work
to be done in the fashion industry, the sourcing that
(13:39):
I do, acquaints for the positive impact that I have environmentally,
and so, you know, I have so much knowledge and
I want to share that, and I am sharing that
with so many people in other companies. But if we
don't have a level of policy change, and if we
don't have very simple laws and legislations coming into just
as they do in the automobile industry, we know that
(14:00):
cars are going electric, we know that they have a
timeline to do so we know that the car companies
wouldn't be going electric if it were not for those
rules and regulations and laws, and you know they will
get penalties if they don't reach that guideline. Similar things
like that do need to come into my industry and
it will only help the industry and certainly help the
future generations on Earth. And this is something you're talking
(14:24):
about not just in your country, but also here in
the United States and on a global stage. Yeah, Oh,
it's it's an absolutely a global issue. And last year
I went to the G seven summit, and I was
with your president and with many other world leaders, and
actually only two women in the room other than myself.
The Queen and merkel Um but and there were a
(14:45):
lot of people talking about aviation and about energy and
all these different huge industries that have a really big
part to play in the environment. I was there as
the one of these few people actually that owned a
company that was in the business and representing the fashion industry,
and I sort of said to him when I was like,
you know, it is easier to set a regulation on
(15:06):
an aviation. You know, on aviation there's maybe six, seven,
ten brands that you're having to put into line. I
feel like there's billions of fashion brands. There's so many,
and obviously fast fashion is a killer. Every single second
a chuckload of fast fashion is burnt or buried, sometimes
worn maximum three times before it's just discarded, which actually
(15:29):
equates to like five billions worth of waste. But these numbers,
these are business opportunities. This is like where we can
create an inspire brand, new recycling businesses, renting businesses. There's
so many amazing things that can come of this problem
that we have. But we definitely need to support from
governments to unite the industry well. And certainly I hope
(15:52):
if any kind of young aspiring designers are listening. They
will take you seriously at your mention of what an
opportunity there should be. I think the young designers now
it's a given. No, you can't walk into a room
and expect to be supported or be invested in if
you don't have some kind of sustainable story. It is
the youth that will solve these problems, I hope, but
(16:15):
they have to have the support of government. There has
to be some form of game changing going on to
really help this next generation of designers or just business people.
You know, there are so many different facets of the
fashion industry. It's one of the few industries that kind
of touches on every industry. We're taking a quick break,
(16:38):
stay with us well. An area that your fashion has
touched recently is mini mouths, which I was incredibly excited
to see, partly because my children are little younger than
(17:00):
your children, so we're kind of right in any and
everything Disney related. And so I just so curious still
it you designed a pant suit for her. How did
that come about? Why do you think it's important that
Minnie is wearing a pant suit at this moment in time.
It's to celebrate International Women's Month, and it is a
(17:20):
collaboration between myself and Mini. Essentially, she told me what
she wanted. She was fed up of wearing dresses as
a rule, and we got together. We had a couple
of late nights. She likes to drink very good red wine.
I found out great something else we haven't come in
a couple of tequila shots, and we came up with
this pants suit. Um No, it was just a moment
to celebrate change and celebrate really during the line in
(17:45):
the sand. It's just such a ridiculous kind of historical
you know, she wears the heels and the skirt and
the guy wears the pants, you know, and that it
isn't the case as we know anymore, and it certainly
isn't the case anymore with many I'm very proud to say,
became up with a few options. It turned out that
the polka dots kind of fitted into her world, and
(18:09):
I just wanted to kind of mute it down and
have these beautiful blues and blacks and I think slightly
modernized her wardrobe, but also to keep it cheek and timeless.
I think that's the important part of this kind of project.
And so, do you have a hope for what the
impact will be. Well, I kind of love that everyone
was super angry about it. I didn't see that coming
(18:29):
at all, so I was thrilled. I have to say
that everyone was so up in arms and hugely disturbed
that minis and pants. Your mother was very supportive and
that was very sweet of her. But I'm glad it
got the attention because it's for the right reasons. And
you know, the fact that it would even be of
conversation is quite mind blowing to me now. But you know,
(18:51):
mini mouths and trousers, is that revolutionary? I remember a
few years ago when also a lot of people, at
least on the internet, we're very upset when a black
actress was cast as Ariel and the live action Little Mermaid. God,
I can't marry. I mean, it was really even surprising
(19:11):
to me how many people were attached to the lily white,
redheaded cartoon version of Ariel from the late nineteen eighties,
whereas I was always more upset that she gave her
voice away for a man. So again one of those
moments where I was like, oh, we are upset about
different things. Yeah, you know, we have so far to go,
(19:33):
and it's sad Really, I realized now more than ever
how liberal my upbringing was and how there's no judgment,
and that was probably the greatest privilege that I grew
up with open minds and open hearts, and I mean,
there isn't anything better than that, right. Evolution takes longer
than we think. Sadly, Ideally we're all evolving, but sometimes
(19:54):
it feels like we are collectively devolving. We've talked about
the fashion industries impact on the environment and responsibility hopefully
to having a more kind of positive impact in the future.
But now you know, more than twenty years into helming,
you know your own brand. What do you think the
industry's responsibility is towards how women but also men see
(20:17):
themselves and how young women and young men think about
their bodies, think about the space that they take up
in the world, hopefully in a positive sense and not
in a negative one. Well, hey, you know, I think
that comes back to me being a mother of four kids,
two boys, two girls, and that's where it hits home
for me the most. There are two sides. There's no
(20:40):
doubt that we still have so much work to do,
and there's no doubt that we're not deeply insecure, fragile creatures.
I think humans are the weirdest animals on earth. And
you know, the other animals are kind of kicking it back,
and they're they're kind of going with what comes in
that truly to them. And we're just disrupting and interrupting
(21:03):
and damaging so many things. And we live in a
day and age where there is a lot of information
and it is being funneled to us in a variety
of manners also, and we're insecure. We've been told we
will feel better about ourselves mentally and emotionally if we
look better, or if we can fit into these genes,
(21:24):
or we can walk down the street and have something
to look at us in a certain way. We can
get x amount of likes on on our devices, and
we live in this day and age that is heightened.
It's it's very, very heightened. And for me, the main
main thing is trying to encourage definitely a quality. You know,
when I'm at home around the kitchen table, opening up
uncomfortable conversations, checking in with people and checking in with
(21:48):
my customers and sort of saying, look, how are you feeling?
How can it make you feel better? Like all I
want to do is make you feel better about yourself,
you know, and that really is the key. I think
talking is iCal and I'm even I'm as bad as anything.
I'm addicted to my device. It's more work related, I
have to admit, But you know, the idea to actually
kind of reduce our time on these things and take
(22:11):
more time to be together as families and communities and
help each other, you know. I think being kinder is
a great start. I like to think that we're a
kind brand at Stella McCartney. I think it can be
cool to be kind. I think it has to be.
It's the only way forward. Still, the last question, is
there kind of one statistic or fact about women kind
(22:35):
of in fashion that you find either inspiring about how
much progress has been made or enraging about how much
progress has yet to be made. I found out recently
that of businesses in the US are women owned. So
there's sort of statistics like that that start to fill
(22:56):
you with just great hope and encourage you. And you know,
you know that that must have only just happened. Is huge,
and I'm sure only moments ago it was twenty or
ten or five or zero, So I think heading in
the right direction is so encouraging. And I think we
all know that the next generations of young women now
(23:17):
are watching, They're eager. They feel much more permission, I think,
to own it. I mean, I definitely see that in
my own daughters, there's no question. But you've got to
believe in yourself and you've got to get in that room.
You've got to fight. You have got to fight still.
For every great statistic you here are every really encouraging
kind of story that you you get hold of, there's
(23:39):
another one in the back of the room that's like
reminds you that we've still got a lot to do.
I love that with such fans of women, I absolutely
I'm sure I'm not allowed to swear on this podcast,
but I absolutely love women. I think we're the fucking goolest.
But you know, the other thing is I love men too.
Like you know, I don't want my sons to feel
alienated from the conversation or feel guilty, like feel bad
(24:01):
when they haven't done anything, but I do always whenever
the conversation comes up, I'm still in the corner of like,
you know what, guys, I'm sorry if if anyone has
to take the bullet for what happened in the past,
but it's still going on to levels that you just
have no idea. I work on a lot of kind
of women's charities with violence, and just globally it's dark.
(24:23):
You know, there's a lot of darkness going on still
for women. So we just can't forget it when we're
sitting in a culture that it has moved forward at
a greater speed. Thank God, well still, thank you, thank
you for your time today, but most of all, thank
you for proving what's possible for women in fashion, for
sustainability in fashion, for many Mouse. I'm incredibly grateful for
(24:45):
your time, especially given the dog barking and the children
ground apologize for the doors slamming and they never have
to apologize for like, there's nothing glamorous over here. I
might be in fashion, but there ain't no glamor involved.
And here's too old of the women this month, go
kick us girls, amen. You can find Stella McCartney on
(25:13):
Instagram at Stella McCartney and if you can't make it
to Paris to see Many in person, you can find
her and her T shirt online at Stella McCartney dot com.
In fact, is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
We are produced by a mighty group of women and
one amazing man, Erica Goodmanson, Mart Harror, Sarah Horowitz, Jessmine
(25:34):
Molly and Justin Wright, with help from Lindsay Hoffman, Barry Laurie,
Joyce Kuban, Julie Supran, Mike Taylor, and Emily Young. Original
music is by Justin Wright. If you like this episode
of In Fact, please make sure to subscribe so you
never miss an episode, and tell your family and friends
to do the same. If you really want to help
us out, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. O
(26:01):
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