March 20, 2025 • 43 mins
This week Leslie speaks to social media expert and Founder of CreatorGenius.com Ariadna Jacobs. Ariadna tells Leslie about her old life in talent management, and surviving what she describes as a smear campaign, as well as battling The New York Times in court.
Hosted by Leslie Dobson.
Produced and edited by Liam Billingham.
Mixed by Aaron Dalton.
Executive producers are Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.
The views expressed in this podcast episode are solely those of the guest speaker and do not reflect the views of the host or the production company.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Okay, you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi guys, I'm doctor Leslie and this is intentionally disturbing.
On this episode, I get to speak with Ari Jacob.
Ari was the victim, you could say victim. She was
quite resilient actually, of a smear campaign and being canceled
in Hollywood after a scathing New York Times article came
(00:33):
out about her, and she actually sued the New York Times.
I would love for you to listen to her story
because I want the world to see the inside.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Of Hollywood and maybe a little.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Of what happens behind the scenes for content creators, influencers,
those people popular on TikTok Instagram, but also the power
that lawyers have and the power that the elites have
when they stick together and they don't want to stand
up for the truth. They don't want to stand up
(01:08):
for friends because they don't want to ruin their reputations
and their potential for climbing ladders.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
People ask a lot, you know, how do things get
so bad?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
If we think about Sean Colmes or the Ditty case,
how did it get so bad?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
How did it go on for so long?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I think this is a really great example of how
we don't stop it when we're a part of it,
because it could hurt where we're going. And I say
we because I've been a part of things like this too,
So I.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Okay, you're here, Thanks for doing this. Anyways, nice to
meet you.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, nice to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I was excited to talk to you because it's just
so it's such an interesting world that you've lived in
since since the start of your career, and it's it's
so one. It's interesting to me because I only started
social media like a year ago, but then two I thought,
(02:16):
with this platform, it would be really awesome to show
the rest of the world a little inside scoop, you know,
show them a little bit of what actually happens, because
they rely so much on the media that they're given
right right, and they don't they don't have the experience
you have of you know, potential smear campaigns or just
(02:40):
all the all the freakin people that work behind the scenes.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yeah, and unfortunately, you don't really get the lesson until
you go through it and then you're able to share
about it. So that's why I think it's been about
five years, which is kind of crazy, but now it's
so interesting to, you know, have a conversation like this
with you, where I've already processed everything that happened. Like
(03:07):
there was so many you know, they say there's so
many it like five stages of grief or something. I
think there's like a certain amount of stages of like
getting canceled. And for me, it happened on this really
huge platform, the New York Times and so on.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
But I think people in.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Their everyday lives experience cancel culture, like whether they're an
influencer or you know, somebody at the office is bullying them.
It's and now with social media, it's even more pervasive,
like people can do this, you know, in the shadows essentially,
you know, writing.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Mean things about you and whatnot.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
So it's it's it's an interesting thing that happened. But
I'm glad that I was resilient and that I'm here
to talk about it and maybe it can help somebody
going through definitely something.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, I wonder if we can give a bit of
a a backstory of what happened. So sure, so you
moved here when you were super young, Yeah, and this
was kind of your calling.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Yeah, I was born in Mexico City and then I
moved to the US when I was like to my
my dad had passed away from a heart attack, and
my mom met an American and they had this, you know,
the love story where they got married and he adopted
me and you know treated me like his daughter. So
I was really you know, grateful to live in the
(04:30):
US and kind of always had that mindset of like,
I want to build.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
A business, I want to change the world.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
And I ended up building a successful talent management company
managing Charlie Dmilio and Addison Ray, the huge TikTok stars that.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Charlie Dmilio as like a well a lot of followers.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Yeah, I think, yeah, at one point she had over
like one hundred million f something I don't know, but
she ended up from twenty nineteen when I.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Worked with her to.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Just like a year or two ago, I think her
and her sister made over ninety million dollars. See, Charlie
was really kind of I don't know. You hear these
stories of like overnight success, and usually they are not
overnight success, but with her, it really was because she
was just this high you know girl in high school
(05:29):
that was kind of the all American girl and didn't
wear a lot of makeup, and.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
She learned these dances.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
And the reason why at the time that I believe
she went so viral is because TikTok was a dancing
app and so whenever you wanted to learn like the
trending dance, you would go to because Charlie did all
the dances, so you would go to Charlie's page. And
then I think the reason why she went super megaviral
was because in order to learn the dance, you'd have
(05:58):
to watch the video over and over and over again,
and that just told the algorithm like, oh my gosh,
this is gonna sky you.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Know, shoot sky high.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
And then I think she kind of became like TikTok's
darling and like I'll never forget. And even her sister too.
Her sister was like, well, what am I supposed to do?
Am I just like the sidekick? But you know, she
ended up having a singing career and they were honestly,
really kind people, and their and their family was supportive,
and I think that it was just like the all
(06:28):
American dream became that, like young people looked at Charlie
and said, oh, if she can do that, maybe I
can do that. And so you know, I had established
when I before I managed Charlie, I had established a
lot of notable industry relationship. I knew that TikTok was
going to be huge at the time, a lot of
(06:49):
people didn't really see it that way. I just saw
where things were going and I'm like, okay, this this
is going to be huge. And then the pandemic happened
and people were stuck at home and there were nothing
else to do but to watch TikTok videos. And the
people that I was representing, they were the ones that
had like created so many videos, and because at the
(07:09):
time it was a bit voyeuristic to post a video
on social media, you know, I know you do. I
was watching your TikTok videos and they're super entertaining, and
but at that, like in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, it
was weird. And even me as an adult, I remember
just making videos so that because a lot of people
were just following me because Charlie followed me, and I
(07:30):
just remember being like, this is so cringe. And then
the influencers were like, oh yeah, the cringier the better,
the more views you're going to get, and I'm like.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Okay, oh, but I remember the feeling, like the initial
feeling of kind of putting yourself out there right, and
just how uncomfortable it felt like it was a culture.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Shift, totally totally.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So so how did you how did you get to
this place where you were? And I forget what the
name was, but you had company that those called it
a house influences, okay, and so you rented a house
at one point and then influencers were living inside of
it and making content.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yes, so well, I've known a.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Few people who have done this, but I didn't.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
I never understood like how it all works, and I
never got in fighted.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Well, so it was very weird how I fell into it. So,
first of all, I worked with Bella Thorne and Bella
owned this house. So Bellathorne was like big already as
an influencer and sort of celebrity making music and acting
and stuff. And she she owned this house that was
(08:42):
like purple on the outside, pink and every different color
you could think of on the inside. She had she
was really artistic. So anyway, she had this house and
she had moved away, and then the pandemic happened, and
I think I just like put the you know, connect
to the dots where I was like, this would be
(09:02):
such a cool place if you were a TikToker to
like make dances because there's so many cool things all around.
I'd talked to Bella and I think it was like
at the beginning of the pandemic, or maybe it was before,
but regardless, I'm like, how, you know, would it be
a lot to rent this house? Because I think they're
trying to sell it. Anyway, we rented it and then
a lot of the TikTokers would come over and they
(09:26):
knew I represented Charlie dmilio so and she was so
famous at the time that everybody wanted me to represent them.
And I think that's where I can take some accountability too,
which is like I should have just stuck with my
big people that I knew were going to be successful.
But it was like shiny new objectis and my thing
because I have ADHD. And it was also not just
(09:49):
I didn't look at them as objects. I looked at
them as like, oh my gosh, they were like me
when I was younger, Like I wish I had a
mentor that could help me navigate, like how to do
all this stuff, Like I wanted to be that. I
think when I was younger, you couldn't really make a
living on YouTube or and if you could, there was
just a very small amount of people that were doing it,
and it was only YouTube that you could do it.
(10:10):
So I just saw I think I saw myself in them,
and I like wanted to help everybody, you know, I saw.
I would meet them and I'd be like, Oh, I
see so much opportunity in this person. And but I
think I think at that point I bit off more
than I could chew because people come over the house
and then they'd be like, oh, I want you to
represent me, like you know, and they would tell me
stories like oh my mom doesn't believe in this, like
(10:31):
my parents want to kick me out because I didn't
go to college, and you know.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So I was like, oh, I want to help them.
So that's kind of how it all started.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It's okay, So it's so interesting. So you've got you've
got a few.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I don't know if you call them youngsters, how old
are they live?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
They're like teenagers or well.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
I so Charlie was sixteen or seventeen, I think I
don't remember. But I had a lot of really amazing
mentors and right at the start they saw what I
was building and they're like, okay, Charlie, she's sixteen, but like,
don't sign anybody under eighteen.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know, like it's just going to be a headache.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Oh, I can imagine.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
So I was like, okay, that's fine, you know, and
that was kind of my thing. So I tried to
mainly sign people that were over eighteen.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
And then so people just they're glomming onto this idea
and they're all trying to be rapped by you, and
I can fully understand, like, right, this is amazing. Let's
I mean, you're about to explode.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Well.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
And the thing was too, is that the huge talent
agencies they weren't really paying attention at the time to
this opportunity.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I always tell people it was like.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Finding like a bunch of like beautiful ponies in a
field and then just like helping them and you know,
working with them, and then all of a sudden, you know,
when TikTok, when people realize what TikTok was about to be,
you know, they grew wings and they became unicorns, and
then everybody wanted a unicorn.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Was kind of like how it felt, so.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
So okay, so it started.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It started with good intentions, but then yeah, it sounds.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Like it just it became one of the darkest times.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Of your life.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, I mean, let's put it hit the fan, right.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
So, so then I decided to start. So it started
with Bella's house and then I rented this this huge house.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I worked with.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
So one of the influencers, his name is Marcus, and
he had green hair and his girlfriend had green hair,
and they were kind of like this iconic TikTok couple.
And what I didn't realize was that Marcus. You know,
I'm not a I'm not a therapist or anything.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
You know, I don't have any background in this.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
But I did date somebody who was, like I think,
very clearly a narcissist or so, I don't know something
in that realm. And this this person that I represented,
he had these he had traits that reminded me of
that person that I that I dated, not like just
in the sense of there was some red flags and
(13:15):
very manipulative and so. And this person was like, I
think twenty three or something like that at the time.
And so, but another place I can take accountability is
like I didn't listen to some of those you know,
alarms going off in my mind because he was he
was basically somebody that really was a leader in like
(13:36):
everybody listened to him. He had a lot of followers
and and so the other influencers listened to him, and
he was the one initially that had the idea to
do this house or whatever, and so I decided to
do it. We negotiated the agreement. At first, he like
didn't even want to get a lawyer, and I was like, no,
you need to have a lawyer because I don't want
(13:56):
this to turn around on me. And then somebody say, hey,
she forced them to sign this agreement that they didn't
agree to.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So we went through a huge back and forth. He
was like the leader.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Once they decided okay, yes, this is okay, he kind
of told everybody, okay, it's fine to sign this agreement.
And it was a production agreement, so it wasn't a
management contract. It was basically kind of like a music
label deal where it's like you're getting an advance.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
The advance was the.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
House that they were going to get to live in
and make content in, and in return, they had to
make a certain amount of content. And then when we
got brand opportunities. The production would get that money and
everything and then distributed it out through the production like
that would make sense through the production agreement. I felt
it was fair and we negotiated this for about a
(14:45):
month and so they moved in. It was like this
great time. And at that point was when this industry
started to get very competitive, because I would have brands
that were calling me so think about it, pandemic Hollywood
closes down. Okay, there's no music touring in Hollywood, there's
no acting, there's no movies being made, no TV shows,
(15:08):
and advertisers still wanted to advertise. But how it was
the best way to advertise It was through TikTok and
Instagram and mainly TikTok because everybody was just at home
on their phones with nothing to do, and so big
brands would call me and say, hey, we've got you know,
half a million dollars to spend. How should we spend it?
And I was like, well, I have a lot of
(15:30):
creators that we could spend it on. And they didn't
really totally understand TikTok at the time. It was like,
how do we do the deal? And so I had
had a lot of experience because I worked in digital agencies.
I'd basically been in social media marketing since MySpace days,
and it was like it was that feeling where I
don't know, if you know, when you're when you're working
(15:51):
something towards something your whole life, and people around you
were like, why are you focused on that?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Why are you focused on that? And You're like, I
just know it.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
And then I felt like, wow, this is going to
be my big moment, like I finally made it.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
That's how it felt like.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
I hadn't made it yet, you know, money wise, but
it felt like, yeah, oh my gosh, I finally made it,
you know, like this.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Was this was your direction, this was who you were
supposed to be professionally, right, We'll be right back after
this break.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
And so those were some good times. But then I
noticed that, you know, the creators, they weren't like they
were taking side deals. They were like they weren't you know,
you're supposed to everything's supposed to come into the company
and then we negotiate it for them, they do the deal.
(16:46):
They weren't doing the deals that I had gotten for them.
They were kind of, I don't know how to say it.
In the nice way, but it was a bit of
like this laziness thing that came about. It was like
the the initial excitement of being in the house was right,
and then it became like, you know, they didn't want
to do the content every day that they said they
were going to do and all this stuff, and then
(17:06):
I just became like I felt like somebody's mom, you know,
like like I was the mom for all these people.
And at the time, I had other talent that was
like not in the house. So there was I think
at one point there was I don't know if it
was like forty or fifty people that we were managing,
maybe even more, I can't remember. Wow, And but this
(17:28):
house was taking up all my time when I had
other people that weren't even you know, like I think
I had I had a couple of clients in Hawaii
and they they were getting huge brand deals, so I
but I was had all my attention on this house.
And and then I was, you know, getting worried because
(17:49):
they were doing things like it's supposed to be that
if they had somebody over at the house, they would
sign a release form, and they weren't doing all this things.
So I and I had you know mentors that were like,
make sure because this is a huge liability and you're
not abc you know, running the Bachelor with you know,
a ton of psychologists.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yes, psychologists support in the background.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
You know.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
What's so funny, Actually I wanted to ask you about this.
So at one point I remember thinking, Okay, a basketball
team or a football team, they'll bring in a psychologist,
They'll bring in like financial experts and my lawyer, and
so I proposed this and my lawyer at the.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Time and another manager.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
And who was like kind of managing me it had
a lot of experience. And then another mentor of mine
were like, absolutely, don't bring in a psychologist because and
I was like why not, And they're just like, just
trust me, don't do it. So I don't know, why
do you think it was a bad idea to because
I'm just like, I feel like these kids like overnight
(18:52):
success and there's nobody like giving them any type of
moral compass of like what they should be doing.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Mean, and I think I think the important part for
me is that your gut, your intuition was like this
is something I'm thinking about, you know, like what in
you made you feel like this would be helpful, right,
I mean, you, these are impressionable people being handed fame
(19:20):
very quickly. Your instinct sounds pretty good to me that
it would have been a good idea.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Well, so they told me not to do that. I
don't know why it was.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
I don't know if it was because it's like, okay,
that could look bad, like a person in power is
like saying you have to see this therapist, or I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I don't really know.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
But it was really interesting because I did get referred
to this therapist who works with all these famous people
in Hollywood, and I remember my friend was like, Okay,
you can see him, but like, you know, he only
works with like high performing people. And they told me
(19:59):
how he worked with and I was like, okay, I
want to see him. And so he knew kind of
what I was doing and everything. And I remember going
in there at one point where I was having a
real problem with this green haired guy where he was
just very manipulative and I could tell I was being manipulated,
but it was like I was into far deep with
this whole thing, and he was the one that would
(20:21):
kind of pull the strings, like he was influencing a
lot of the creators to do whatever he said, And
so I went in to see the therapist and he's like, okay,
why don't you bring in, you know, the green haired
kid and his girlfriend, And so I brought them in
and I left whenever he talked to them, and then
I don't know. The next time I saw the therapist,
(20:43):
he was like, hey, I think you need to quit,
Like I think you need to shut down the house.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It was like, oh wow, I'm like, I am so
deep in this, what do you mean?
Speaker 5 (20:55):
And he's like, these people don't respect you, they don't
care about you. You are He was like, you're a
shining light and you have so much to offer. And
he said, I don't know if you believe in God
or higher power, but he has. He's like, I have
this weird feeling that that if you don't walk away,
(21:16):
that God or someone else is gonna is gonna take
it away for you, because it's it's not for you.
And I was like, okay, well thank you, but respectfully,
like I can't.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I can't walk away.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
And two later, local therapy.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
But yeah, two weeks later came crashing down, like the
whole thing came crashing down. So in August of twenty twenty,
a New York Times article by Taylor Lorenz, a journalist there,
accuse me of exploiting influencers, manipulating teenagers, and financial mismanagement.
And the article omitted key facts such as my rebuttals
(21:52):
and nuanced contract details and painting a really one sided narrative,
and the reporter had a conflict of interest. She was
signed to a competing agency which hadn't been disclosed, so
she was writing basically glowing articles about the other agency,
and then very quickly after that, wrote an article that
(22:14):
would destroy my reputation and my business and many of
my clients signed to her agency that she was at.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Wow, yeah, I mean, how was it emotionally to just
read that article she wrote?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
I mean in a massive publication.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Well, it was devastating, and I knew it was coming
because well, she reached out to us like I don't know,
ten hours or something before the article went live, and
then had a list of like fifty questions of is
it true that you did this?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Is it true that you did that?
Speaker 5 (22:50):
And I remember like sitting up with my attorney basically
pulling an all nighter and being like, can we just
give them everything to refute what they's and my attorney
was like, unfortunately, you can't because like, let's say that
you know x y Z brand paid late, if you
give that invoice to The New York Times, then x
(23:10):
y Z Brand can sue you because you're breaking the NDA.
So it was basically as between a rock and hard
place when it came out and it said all these
terrible things. There was way worse things in the article,
but this one thing really hurt me the most, which
was they said they put in the.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Article Gary V.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
She claims to know Gary V and tells all these
influencers that she knows Gary V. But we called Gary
V and his team said that she's not he's not
affiliated with influences, which is a fact.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
He wasn't.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
He wasn't affiliated, like he was my business partner. But
it made it look like I was a total clout
chaser name dropper, and because I had so much respect
and have so much respect for Gary V and he's
my actual friend, it like broke my heart. I'm like,
it's probably they called Gary and Gary's thinking like what
the heck has already been doing? You know that That
(24:08):
was my initial feeling, like I totally let him down.
It still like.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Makes me emotional.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
It's so weird because it's like they said way worse
things about me, but it was like.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
What about it?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, what about this is the I think it was.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
Because like nobody really believed in me, like when I
was younger, and Gary always believed in me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And so I'm.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Sorry, but oh it is in the article.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
It's the thing that hurt me.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
You know.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
It's just weird that that that's what hurt me because
I was like, I felt like I let him down.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
The good thing is.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
That he called me and he was or he texted
me are you okay?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, he said like are you okay?
Speaker 5 (24:57):
And and he I don't remember what he said.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
He's like, you know, just don't want to get you.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
And I remember like some of the influencers had moved out,
the green haired kid and one of the ones that
was like the videographer he had written on my door
at the house because by that point I ended up
just like moving into that place because it was like
twenty grand a month, and this whole thing had been
falling like about a month before I knew that it
(25:27):
was going to fall apart. And anyway, this kid wrote kid.
He's over eighteen, but I called them kids, which is
probably part of the thing which makes it sound like worse.
But no, I mean anyway he wrote on the door. Yeah,
he wrote on the door like we love you, or
we believe in you, or keep your head up. I
don't remember what it was. And you know, those things
(25:47):
like helped me push through. And then I remember one
of my mentors who was a really big Hollywood you know,
this guy has like eight emmys. He was my mentor,
and he called me and he was like, welcome.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
To the big leagues.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
I'm like, did you read the article and he's like, yeah,
I read it. He's like, well, are you gonna just
lay down and die? Are you gonna get up? Because
you didn't do any of these things.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I know you. I was there.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
So you have to fight back and you have to
be resilient because nobody gets a target like that on
their back unless they're important and unless people are threatened
by them. And he's like, you know so. So it
was devastating, so fucked up. And also it was this
feeling of I don't know if it's my ADHD or
(26:35):
if this is just my personality, but I'm very hard
on myself, Like when something happens, I think that I
immediately think of like every like I get so mad
at myself. I talk so mean to myself. Well, I
don't know what that is. Do we all have that?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Like in some monm I mean, you clearly have really
high standards for yourself. And I'm sure there's a huge
element that's cultural too, Yeah, coming from Mexico. And I
don't know how much of your Mexican life or family
impacts you or influences you, but I mean Mexicans hold
themselves to a very very high working standard.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Yeah, yeah, I think you know, in my relationship with
my dad is good now, and it just he's my
stepdad essentially, but he's not my stepdad and he's my
adopted dad. And I call on my dad and he
wasn't hard on me like he was hard on me
like a like you might imagine like a male like
(27:38):
a like a dad being to a son in business.
I don't know why it was like that, but it's
honestly probably part of the reason why I've been so
like ambitious in my life. But it's also tough when
you're not like Daddy's little princess, you know, and like
I never felt like I had that type of support.
(27:59):
So I always just was like, Okay, I have to
like be good and I have to like impress him
in some way. And that was always what drove me.
And so yeah, when when I kind of and and
also he was somebody that was like, hey, you're doing
something different, like maybe why don't you just get you know,
(28:20):
a regular job where you could be, you know, head
of marketing at a company. And I just didn't go
that route. And so it was all this like I
told you so, starting to come into my mind. It
was a dark place for sure, and especially when you
get canceled, it's very isolating.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Because we let's explain that, like people don't know what
it means to be canceled. No, Like I kind of
feel like if I were to get canceled, that means
I finally made it. If you're cancelable.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Yes, And I thought, well, do you need to look
at it that way in a way, because yeah, yeah,
there's so many different pieces of advice that you get
though too. It's like some people are like, oh, just
change your name and keep representing people. And then you know,
because there's two ways of being canceled. One is like
you could do something it gets you canceled, and then
two you could you know, things can be twisted to
(29:17):
make it look like you were canceled. One of the
reasons why it was so isolating is because I have
a very bubbly personality, and I kind of got through
life like just being bubbly and friendly to a lot
of people, and then people liking that type of energy
and wanting to work with me or wanting to do
(29:38):
stuff with me. And there was this level also of
kind of like being self deprecating or not, just like
kind of maybe oversharing, Like people knew that I was bootstrapped,
and they knew I didn't have like a big investor
behind me.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And I liked that about me.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
I like the fact that I was like, Hey, this
is my own money, I'm putting into this, this is
my own time. And so but when this happened, it
was like if I entered a room and said something,
I felt like, oh, everybody thinks I'm full of it,
Like everybody thinks I'm just doing this too, you know.
It was like my real personality got dulled because I'm like, oh,
(30:19):
maybe if I say this, people think I'm a bad
person or I don't know if that makes sense to
articulate it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, it's a it's a harsh climate to be a
young woman in. We're going to take a quick break
and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
One of the things I remember this happening is that.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
It seemed like there was people that had been talking
to the journalist and we're trying to like bait me
into doing something or saying something.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
And that's probably because the journalist called them and was like,
have you ever noticed Arib being xyz like erratic or
you know, staying up till three in the morning, or
who knows what she asked them, right, But I know
she did call people and be like have you ever
noticed that she did this? And I remember one of
my clients that stayed with me, he was like, no,
(31:15):
I never, you know, I never noticed her doing that.
And then I guess the journalist like got mad at
him and was like, I'm really disappointed in you. She
said that to a sixteen year old kid who she
called to try to get like bad information about me,
and he stood strong.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
But most sixteen year olds are gonna.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
Be like, oh, I don't know I guess maybe like
maybe I've seen her be like this. And so one
of the things was that initially I would sometimes stay
up really late and answer emails because these influencers were
getting emails like there's so many emails, are getting fan emails,
and then maybe a brand email would come in there,
(31:52):
and a lot of the managers were like letting those
emails go and they were going unanswered. And the reason
why I felt like I have to be on this,
like I cannot let one email go through that doesn't
get answered. And so I sometimes would be like, you know,
answering emails at like three in the morning or four
in the morning or something like that. But I knew
a lot of the companies were in New York, so
(32:12):
I was like, it's fine if they get an email.
You know, they want to get an email right away
if they want to do a brand deal with some
of these people. And I remember one of the influencers
that had like was a source for the story was
saying like, yeah, you just like you're just cracked out,
like on adderall and you just stay up at all
hours of the night like texting and answering emails, like
(32:33):
basically calling me crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
And I remember like thinking about it, I'm like.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Well maybe I maybe that's bad, Like maybe I shouldn't
be doing this, you know. And I started to kind
of believe everything, and then I think at one point
I was like, I need to stop this because this
is unhealthy. Like I'm not a bad person, Like I
make mistakes, but none of what they're saying. If I
did anything, it surely wasn't intentional. And second of all,
like I know for a fact these things are not true,
(32:58):
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
So, yeah, the article is written in a way where
after every paragraph it almost forces the reader to have
an emotional reaction, and it forces credibility to how the
paragraph was written. So it doesn't leave you thinking I
should question this. It leaves you thinking, oh shit.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
She fucked up.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
The world just believes what they see.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, you see the word journalists and you
believe it. You see actor, you believe them. That's why
they have so many actors promoting so many things that
they probably don't have any understanding of the science behind it. So, like,
what advice would you give to people to not just
take what they're fed, right and not just eat it?
Speaker 5 (33:48):
Well, you know, I think I wrote a Twitter thread
about this, and I feel like one of the things
is pay attention to the words being used because oftentimes
a word that will be used that is like more
traumatic or more like incendiary, but it could be just
(34:11):
describing something that wasn't that. So, for example, in the article,
the worst thing that she wrote and I ended up
suing the New York Times over this, but the worst
thing that the journalist wrote, which the judge in the
in my case against the New York Times said this
statement can move forward, was she wrote that I leaked
(34:35):
nude images of a client for revenge.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
That was what they were talking about.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
That was apparently the New York Times reviewed that conversation
and said that that was me leaking nudes was for
me to send it to my attorney and to the
to the influencer himself who was in the in the
in the tiny little pictures. So that's an example of like, okay,
she leaked new Like it's hard though to distinguish, right,
(35:03):
like how would you even know that?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And the problem is that I couldn't get ahead of it.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Like okay, so how did it conclude?
Speaker 5 (35:11):
So I it took four years. And this is what
people also don't understand about just getting into legal fight
with somebody as big as The New York Times is
that it took forever.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So the article came out in twenty twenty, and in
twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
Four, the judge had thrown out basically like fifty So
initially it was like fifty claims that we said that
were untrue. Then it was like narrowed down to five
that we said we could go forward with, so my
or that my attorneys would have to like rewrite the complaint.
(35:48):
And then we submitted like the five or six that
we said, okay, these are these can stay, and then
the judge.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think that's important for people to know though, is
you know that initial complaint where there's like eighty five
thousand things slapped onto it. Yeah, is literally the attorney
throwing everything they've got and it's gonna get it'll get
taken down to just a few relevant things.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
And that happens over years.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
And you know what's crazy too, is that at one
point I.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Did utilize social media.
Speaker 5 (36:24):
So every time that this journalist would do something like
being a bad actor towards somebody else, I would call
it out on Twitter and I think like that gave
it and this is all during Johnny Depp, so I
was very aware of what I was doing. In twenty
twenty four, the judge said one statement can move forward,
and that statement was the nude photos. And the reason
(36:45):
the only reason it could move forward was because Taylor
had written in pre publication emails to me, nobody's alleging
that you leaked nude photos publicly. So that was so
when you file for defamation, you have to prove malice,
and that means that like, you wrote something knowing it
(37:06):
was false, and so that the one word that everything
hinged on was leaked. So they were trying to say, like, well,
what is leaked mean? Can you leak something privately or
can you leak something publicly? So that was basically the
whole thing the judge. Most of the time these cases
get thrown out because it's so difficult. But the judge said,
your case can move forward. And after he said it
(37:29):
could move forward, the New York Times filed what's called
a motion to reconsider, which I was told that most
attorneys don't do that because that's like telling the judge
he's wrong. They filed that, and the judge a second
time said no, it can move forward.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
So that was like a huge victory.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
The mental health of the people, especially the ones you
talk about with millions of followers losing that platform.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
That scared me.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
That scared me to think about how these young you know, teenagers,
twenty year olds who are just fully in this and
then losing it suddenly, and they may still lose it
in the future. I just immediately, I just thought they're
going to end their lives, like they don't have the
skills to cope with this.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
It got too big, too fast.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
Yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of I mean
what I saw, what I've seen in social media. I
mean that's a whole other conversation, but it's like I
think it was like a perfect storm with the pandemic
and everything where people really do have their identities, like
you know, built on whatever they post on social media,
or if there's like bullies attacking them and they feel
(38:42):
like they can't get out of it, like it's just
after all this happened. I remember after finding the lawsuit,
like after're going on Tucker, like I had I had
feelings of that, Like when it was in a dark place,
I was like I didn't think about actually doing it,
but I just thought, like I don't know how I
can move forward, like I don't know how to And
(39:03):
I remember after but after I sued and after I
went on Tucker and after I started to get support,
I was like, I can't believe that I ever considered
that as an option, because it's like I just needed
to believe it was possible, Like hold my beer, I'm
gonna sue the New York Times, like I'm so proud
of that.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I know people are like, I'm so sorry that happened
to you. I'm like, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
I see the New York Times that I like got
my reputation back, and I have a bigger platform now
than I ever did. And to be honest with you,
like I don't. I'm glad I don't represent social media
stars anymore. I think I would have gone completely insane.
Even if I would have made a lot of money,
It's like it wasn't good for me mentally. Like now
I get to help like boomers with their social media,
(39:44):
you know, like plastic surgeons, and like I work with
basically business owners, small and medium sized business owners, and
I help them do short form video content for their companies,
and there's like millions of those people, right, restaurants and
you know, botox places or whatever. I mean, like spas,
I mean, there's this is like unlimited amount of people
that actually appreciate me and my what I know. And
(40:05):
so it was, but it was a shift of that, like, Okay,
just because it's not this thing that I want doesn't
mean it's the thing I'm meant for.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, So I like to I like to end each
episode with kind of a something that really resonates with
the world. And I think that's it is. We can't
just be one entity or one presence if it's TikTok
or Instagram, that's still social media, right. We have to
be grounded in reality and know our worth so that
(40:39):
we're not putting all our eggs into one basket, right, right,
especially the youth.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
One thing.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
I do hope that if anybody is listening out there,
that it's like a young person, don't do this. There's
a trend called like that's like a victimhood mentality, and
it's like everybody else, it's everybody else's fault, right, It's
like TikTok's closing down, and like I'm just gonna like,
you know, or or somebody rubs you the wrong way
(41:06):
and then you're gonna just say something about them.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (41:09):
It's I don't like that victim mentality. I've been there
where where I'm like, I'm a victim.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Like this happened to me. I can't.
Speaker 5 (41:16):
But it's like, try to snap out of it, because
the moment you snap out of it and you take
accountability and then you believe in yourself and you go
and do the things, then you're gonna who knows what
you can accomplish. So I hope people get that out
of the story.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I think that's wonderful advice, and coming from somebody who
who went up against, you know, one of the biggest
entities that we have, it's incredible advice.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Yeah, I thank you so much for doing this with
me too.
Speaker 5 (41:44):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been really nice.
And yeah, I haven't really even told this story anywhere,
so I'll make sure to share it everywhere. And I yeah,
I hope, like I said, I hope somebody gets that
something out of it, but my little miss Jacob everywhere.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yeah, So that's what.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
I was gonna say, is I'm not good at this. Okay,
how can people find you?
Speaker 5 (42:06):
I'm little miss Jacob on pretty much everything. My website
is little miss Jacob dot com. On YouTube, I'm Influences
YouTube dot com, slash Influences and h My company is
Creator Genius and we make short form content for small businesses.
So creator Genius dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Okay, I have some people I need to send your way. Okay, yay,
I'm like a few plastic surgeons.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Actually, you have helped meeting that needs some help.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I'm really grateful you're here, and thank you for listening
to another episode and meeting Ari and hearing her empowering
and amazing story. And hopefully you had some glimpses onto
the reality of things behind the camera.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
That's your next time.
Okay, you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi guys, I'm doctor Leslie and this is intentionally disturbing.
On this episode, I get to speak with Ari Jacob.
Ari was the victim, you could say victim. She was
quite resilient actually, of a smear campaign and being canceled
in Hollywood after a scathing New York Times article came
(00:33):
out about her, and she actually sued the New York Times.
I would love for you to listen to her story
because I want the world to see the inside.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Of Hollywood and maybe a little.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Of what happens behind the scenes for content creators, influencers,
those people popular on TikTok Instagram, but also the power
that lawyers have and the power that the elites have
when they stick together and they don't want to stand
up for the truth. They don't want to stand up
(01:08):
for friends because they don't want to ruin their reputations
and their potential for climbing ladders.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
People ask a lot, you know, how do things get
so bad?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
If we think about Sean Colmes or the Ditty case,
how did it get so bad?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
How did it go on for so long?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I think this is a really great example of how
we don't stop it when we're a part of it,
because it could hurt where we're going. And I say
we because I've been a part of things like this too,
So I.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Okay, you're here, Thanks for doing this. Anyways, nice to
meet you.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, nice to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I was excited to talk to you because it's just
so it's such an interesting world that you've lived in
since since the start of your career, and it's it's
so one. It's interesting to me because I only started
social media like a year ago, but then two I thought,
(02:16):
with this platform, it would be really awesome to show
the rest of the world a little inside scoop, you know,
show them a little bit of what actually happens, because
they rely so much on the media that they're given
right right, and they don't they don't have the experience
you have of you know, potential smear campaigns or just
(02:40):
all the all the freakin people that work behind the scenes.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yeah, and unfortunately, you don't really get the lesson until
you go through it and then you're able to share
about it. So that's why I think it's been about
five years, which is kind of crazy, but now it's
so interesting to, you know, have a conversation like this
with you, where I've already processed everything that happened. Like
(03:07):
there was so many you know, they say there's so
many it like five stages of grief or something. I
think there's like a certain amount of stages of like
getting canceled. And for me, it happened on this really
huge platform, the New York Times and so on.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
But I think people in.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Their everyday lives experience cancel culture, like whether they're an
influencer or you know, somebody at the office is bullying them.
It's and now with social media, it's even more pervasive,
like people can do this, you know, in the shadows essentially,
you know, writing.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Mean things about you and whatnot.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
So it's it's it's an interesting thing that happened. But
I'm glad that I was resilient and that I'm here
to talk about it and maybe it can help somebody
going through definitely something.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, I wonder if we can give a bit of
a a backstory of what happened. So sure, so you
moved here when you were super young, Yeah, and this
was kind of your calling.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Yeah, I was born in Mexico City and then I
moved to the US when I was like to my
my dad had passed away from a heart attack, and
my mom met an American and they had this, you know,
the love story where they got married and he adopted
me and you know treated me like his daughter. So
I was really you know, grateful to live in the
(04:30):
US and kind of always had that mindset of like,
I want to build.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
A business, I want to change the world.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
And I ended up building a successful talent management company
managing Charlie Dmilio and Addison Ray, the huge TikTok stars that.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Charlie Dmilio as like a well a lot of followers.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Yeah, I think, yeah, at one point she had over
like one hundred million f something I don't know, but
she ended up from twenty nineteen when I.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Worked with her to.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Just like a year or two ago, I think her
and her sister made over ninety million dollars. See, Charlie
was really kind of I don't know. You hear these
stories of like overnight success, and usually they are not
overnight success, but with her, it really was because she
was just this high you know girl in high school
(05:29):
that was kind of the all American girl and didn't
wear a lot of makeup, and.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
She learned these dances.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
And the reason why at the time that I believe
she went so viral is because TikTok was a dancing
app and so whenever you wanted to learn like the
trending dance, you would go to because Charlie did all
the dances, so you would go to Charlie's page. And
then I think the reason why she went super megaviral
was because in order to learn the dance, you'd have
(05:58):
to watch the video over and over and over again,
and that just told the algorithm like, oh my gosh,
this is gonna sky you.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Know, shoot sky high.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
And then I think she kind of became like TikTok's
darling and like I'll never forget. And even her sister too.
Her sister was like, well, what am I supposed to do?
Am I just like the sidekick? But you know, she
ended up having a singing career and they were honestly,
really kind people, and their and their family was supportive,
and I think that it was just like the all
(06:28):
American dream became that, like young people looked at Charlie
and said, oh, if she can do that, maybe I
can do that. And so you know, I had established
when I before I managed Charlie, I had established a
lot of notable industry relationship. I knew that TikTok was
going to be huge at the time, a lot of
(06:49):
people didn't really see it that way. I just saw
where things were going and I'm like, okay, this this
is going to be huge. And then the pandemic happened
and people were stuck at home and there were nothing
else to do but to watch TikTok videos. And the
people that I was representing, they were the ones that
had like created so many videos, and because at the
(07:09):
time it was a bit voyeuristic to post a video
on social media, you know, I know you do. I
was watching your TikTok videos and they're super entertaining, and
but at that, like in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, it
was weird. And even me as an adult, I remember
just making videos so that because a lot of people
were just following me because Charlie followed me, and I
(07:30):
just remember being like, this is so cringe. And then
the influencers were like, oh yeah, the cringier the better,
the more views you're going to get, and I'm like.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Okay, oh, but I remember the feeling, like the initial
feeling of kind of putting yourself out there right, and
just how uncomfortable it felt like it was a culture.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Shift, totally totally.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So so how did you how did you get to
this place where you were? And I forget what the
name was, but you had company that those called it
a house influences, okay, and so you rented a house
at one point and then influencers were living inside of
it and making content.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yes, so well, I've known a.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Few people who have done this, but I didn't.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
I never understood like how it all works, and I
never got in fighted.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Well, so it was very weird how I fell into it. So,
first of all, I worked with Bella Thorne and Bella
owned this house. So Bellathorne was like big already as
an influencer and sort of celebrity making music and acting
and stuff. And she she owned this house that was
(08:42):
like purple on the outside, pink and every different color
you could think of on the inside. She had she
was really artistic. So anyway, she had this house and
she had moved away, and then the pandemic happened, and
I think I just like put the you know, connect
to the dots where I was like, this would be
(09:02):
such a cool place if you were a TikToker to
like make dances because there's so many cool things all around.
I'd talked to Bella and I think it was like
at the beginning of the pandemic, or maybe it was before,
but regardless, I'm like, how, you know, would it be
a lot to rent this house? Because I think they're
trying to sell it. Anyway, we rented it and then
a lot of the TikTokers would come over and they
(09:26):
knew I represented Charlie dmilio so and she was so
famous at the time that everybody wanted me to represent them.
And I think that's where I can take some accountability too,
which is like I should have just stuck with my
big people that I knew were going to be successful.
But it was like shiny new objectis and my thing
because I have ADHD. And it was also not just
(09:49):
I didn't look at them as objects. I looked at
them as like, oh my gosh, they were like me
when I was younger, Like I wish I had a
mentor that could help me navigate, like how to do
all this stuff, Like I wanted to be that. I
think when I was younger, you couldn't really make a
living on YouTube or and if you could, there was
just a very small amount of people that were doing it,
and it was only YouTube that you could do it.
(10:10):
So I just saw I think I saw myself in them,
and I like wanted to help everybody, you know, I saw.
I would meet them and I'd be like, Oh, I
see so much opportunity in this person. And but I
think I think at that point I bit off more
than I could chew because people come over the house
and then they'd be like, oh, I want you to
represent me, like you know, and they would tell me
stories like oh my mom doesn't believe in this, like
(10:31):
my parents want to kick me out because I didn't
go to college, and you know.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So I was like, oh, I want to help them.
So that's kind of how it all started.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It's okay, So it's so interesting. So you've got you've
got a few.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I don't know if you call them youngsters, how old
are they live?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
They're like teenagers or well.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
I so Charlie was sixteen or seventeen, I think I
don't remember. But I had a lot of really amazing
mentors and right at the start they saw what I
was building and they're like, okay, Charlie, she's sixteen, but like,
don't sign anybody under eighteen.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know, like it's just going to be a headache.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Oh, I can imagine.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
So I was like, okay, that's fine, you know, and
that was kind of my thing. So I tried to
mainly sign people that were over eighteen.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
And then so people just they're glomming onto this idea
and they're all trying to be rapped by you, and
I can fully understand, like, right, this is amazing. Let's
I mean, you're about to explode.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Well.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
And the thing was too, is that the huge talent
agencies they weren't really paying attention at the time to
this opportunity.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I always tell people it was like.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Finding like a bunch of like beautiful ponies in a
field and then just like helping them and you know,
working with them, and then all of a sudden, you know,
when TikTok, when people realize what TikTok was about to be,
you know, they grew wings and they became unicorns, and
then everybody wanted a unicorn.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Was kind of like how it felt, so.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
So okay, so it started.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It started with good intentions, but then yeah, it sounds.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Like it just it became one of the darkest times.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Of your life.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, I mean, let's put it hit the fan, right.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
So, so then I decided to start. So it started
with Bella's house and then I rented this this huge house.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I worked with.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
So one of the influencers, his name is Marcus, and
he had green hair and his girlfriend had green hair,
and they were kind of like this iconic TikTok couple.
And what I didn't realize was that Marcus. You know,
I'm not a I'm not a therapist or anything.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
You know, I don't have any background in this.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
But I did date somebody who was, like I think,
very clearly a narcissist or so, I don't know something
in that realm. And this this person that I represented,
he had these he had traits that reminded me of
that person that I that I dated, not like just
in the sense of there was some red flags and
(13:15):
very manipulative and so. And this person was like, I
think twenty three or something like that at the time.
And so, but another place I can take accountability is
like I didn't listen to some of those you know,
alarms going off in my mind because he was he
was basically somebody that really was a leader in like
(13:36):
everybody listened to him. He had a lot of followers
and and so the other influencers listened to him, and
he was the one initially that had the idea to
do this house or whatever, and so I decided to
do it. We negotiated the agreement. At first, he like
didn't even want to get a lawyer, and I was like, no,
you need to have a lawyer because I don't want
(13:56):
this to turn around on me. And then somebody say, hey,
she forced them to sign this agreement that they didn't
agree to.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So we went through a huge back and forth. He
was like the leader.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Once they decided okay, yes, this is okay, he kind
of told everybody, okay, it's fine to sign this agreement.
And it was a production agreement, so it wasn't a
management contract. It was basically kind of like a music
label deal where it's like you're getting an advance.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
The advance was the.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
House that they were going to get to live in
and make content in, and in return, they had to
make a certain amount of content. And then when we
got brand opportunities. The production would get that money and
everything and then distributed it out through the production like
that would make sense through the production agreement. I felt
it was fair and we negotiated this for about a
(14:45):
month and so they moved in. It was like this
great time. And at that point was when this industry
started to get very competitive, because I would have brands
that were calling me so think about it, pandemic Hollywood
closes down. Okay, there's no music touring in Hollywood, there's
no acting, there's no movies being made, no TV shows,
(15:08):
and advertisers still wanted to advertise. But how it was
the best way to advertise It was through TikTok and
Instagram and mainly TikTok because everybody was just at home
on their phones with nothing to do, and so big
brands would call me and say, hey, we've got you know,
half a million dollars to spend. How should we spend it?
And I was like, well, I have a lot of
(15:30):
creators that we could spend it on. And they didn't
really totally understand TikTok at the time. It was like,
how do we do the deal? And so I had
had a lot of experience because I worked in digital agencies.
I'd basically been in social media marketing since MySpace days,
and it was like it was that feeling where I
don't know, if you know, when you're when you're working
(15:51):
something towards something your whole life, and people around you
were like, why are you focused on that?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Why are you focused on that? And You're like, I
just know it.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
And then I felt like, wow, this is going to
be my big moment, like I finally made it.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
That's how it felt like.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
I hadn't made it yet, you know, money wise, but
it felt like, yeah, oh my gosh, I finally made it,
you know, like this.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Was this was your direction, this was who you were
supposed to be professionally, right, We'll be right back after
this break.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
And so those were some good times. But then I
noticed that, you know, the creators, they weren't like they
were taking side deals. They were like they weren't you know,
you're supposed to everything's supposed to come into the company
and then we negotiate it for them, they do the deal.
(16:46):
They weren't doing the deals that I had gotten for them.
They were kind of, I don't know how to say it.
In the nice way, but it was a bit of
like this laziness thing that came about. It was like
the the initial excitement of being in the house was right,
and then it became like, you know, they didn't want
to do the content every day that they said they
were going to do and all this stuff, and then
(17:06):
I just became like I felt like somebody's mom, you know,
like like I was the mom for all these people.
And at the time, I had other talent that was
like not in the house. So there was I think
at one point there was I don't know if it
was like forty or fifty people that we were managing,
maybe even more, I can't remember. Wow, And but this
(17:28):
house was taking up all my time when I had
other people that weren't even you know, like I think
I had I had a couple of clients in Hawaii
and they they were getting huge brand deals, so I
but I was had all my attention on this house.
And and then I was, you know, getting worried because
(17:49):
they were doing things like it's supposed to be that
if they had somebody over at the house, they would
sign a release form, and they weren't doing all this things.
So I and I had you know mentors that were like,
make sure because this is a huge liability and you're
not abc you know, running the Bachelor with you know,
a ton of psychologists.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yes, psychologists support in the background.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
You know.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
What's so funny, Actually I wanted to ask you about this.
So at one point I remember thinking, Okay, a basketball
team or a football team, they'll bring in a psychologist,
They'll bring in like financial experts and my lawyer, and
so I proposed this and my lawyer at the.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Time and another manager.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
And who was like kind of managing me it had
a lot of experience. And then another mentor of mine
were like, absolutely, don't bring in a psychologist because and
I was like why not, And they're just like, just
trust me, don't do it. So I don't know, why
do you think it was a bad idea to because
I'm just like, I feel like these kids like overnight
(18:52):
success and there's nobody like giving them any type of
moral compass of like what they should be doing.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Mean, and I think I think the important part for
me is that your gut, your intuition was like this
is something I'm thinking about, you know, like what in
you made you feel like this would be helpful, right,
I mean, you, these are impressionable people being handed fame
(19:20):
very quickly. Your instinct sounds pretty good to me that
it would have been a good idea.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Well, so they told me not to do that. I
don't know why it was.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
I don't know if it was because it's like, okay,
that could look bad, like a person in power is
like saying you have to see this therapist, or I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I don't really know.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
But it was really interesting because I did get referred
to this therapist who works with all these famous people
in Hollywood, and I remember my friend was like, Okay,
you can see him, but like, you know, he only
works with like high performing people. And they told me
(19:59):
how he worked with and I was like, okay, I
want to see him. And so he knew kind of
what I was doing and everything. And I remember going
in there at one point where I was having a
real problem with this green haired guy where he was
just very manipulative and I could tell I was being manipulated,
but it was like I was into far deep with
this whole thing, and he was the one that would
(20:21):
kind of pull the strings, like he was influencing a
lot of the creators to do whatever he said, And
so I went in to see the therapist and he's like, okay,
why don't you bring in, you know, the green haired
kid and his girlfriend, And so I brought them in
and I left whenever he talked to them, and then
I don't know. The next time I saw the therapist,
(20:43):
he was like, hey, I think you need to quit,
Like I think you need to shut down the house.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It was like, oh wow, I'm like, I am so
deep in this, what do you mean?
Speaker 5 (20:55):
And he's like, these people don't respect you, they don't
care about you. You are He was like, you're a
shining light and you have so much to offer. And
he said, I don't know if you believe in God
or higher power, but he has. He's like, I have
this weird feeling that that if you don't walk away,
(21:16):
that God or someone else is gonna is gonna take
it away for you, because it's it's not for you.
And I was like, okay, well thank you, but respectfully,
like I can't.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I can't walk away.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
And two later, local therapy.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
But yeah, two weeks later came crashing down, like the
whole thing came crashing down. So in August of twenty twenty,
a New York Times article by Taylor Lorenz, a journalist there,
accuse me of exploiting influencers, manipulating teenagers, and financial mismanagement.
And the article omitted key facts such as my rebuttals
(21:52):
and nuanced contract details and painting a really one sided narrative,
and the reporter had a conflict of interest. She was
signed to a competing agency which hadn't been disclosed, so
she was writing basically glowing articles about the other agency,
and then very quickly after that, wrote an article that
(22:14):
would destroy my reputation and my business and many of
my clients signed to her agency that she was at.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Wow, yeah, I mean, how was it emotionally to just
read that article she wrote?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
I mean in a massive publication.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Well, it was devastating, and I knew it was coming
because well, she reached out to us like I don't know,
ten hours or something before the article went live, and
then had a list of like fifty questions of is
it true that you did this?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Is it true that you did that?
Speaker 5 (22:50):
And I remember like sitting up with my attorney basically
pulling an all nighter and being like, can we just
give them everything to refute what they's and my attorney
was like, unfortunately, you can't because like, let's say that
you know x y Z brand paid late, if you
give that invoice to The New York Times, then x
(23:10):
y Z Brand can sue you because you're breaking the NDA.
So it was basically as between a rock and hard
place when it came out and it said all these
terrible things. There was way worse things in the article,
but this one thing really hurt me the most, which
was they said they put in the.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Article Gary V.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
She claims to know Gary V and tells all these
influencers that she knows Gary V. But we called Gary
V and his team said that she's not he's not
affiliated with influences, which is a fact.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
He wasn't.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
He wasn't affiliated, like he was my business partner. But
it made it look like I was a total clout
chaser name dropper, and because I had so much respect
and have so much respect for Gary V and he's
my actual friend, it like broke my heart. I'm like,
it's probably they called Gary and Gary's thinking like what
the heck has already been doing? You know that That
(24:08):
was my initial feeling, like I totally let him down.
It still like.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Makes me emotional.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
It's so weird because it's like they said way worse
things about me, but it was like.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
What about it?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, what about this is the I think it was.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
Because like nobody really believed in me, like when I
was younger, and Gary always believed in me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And so I'm.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Sorry, but oh it is in the article.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
It's the thing that hurt me.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
You know.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
It's just weird that that that's what hurt me because
I was like, I felt like I let him down.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
The good thing is.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
That he called me and he was or he texted
me are you okay?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, he said like are you okay?
Speaker 5 (24:57):
And and he I don't remember what he said.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
He's like, you know, just don't want to get you.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
And I remember like some of the influencers had moved out,
the green haired kid and one of the ones that
was like the videographer he had written on my door
at the house because by that point I ended up
just like moving into that place because it was like
twenty grand a month, and this whole thing had been
falling like about a month before I knew that it
(25:27):
was going to fall apart. And anyway, this kid wrote kid.
He's over eighteen, but I called them kids, which is
probably part of the thing which makes it sound like worse.
But no, I mean anyway he wrote on the door. Yeah,
he wrote on the door like we love you, or
we believe in you, or keep your head up. I
don't remember what it was. And you know, those things
(25:47):
like helped me push through. And then I remember one
of my mentors who was a really big Hollywood you know,
this guy has like eight emmys. He was my mentor,
and he called me and he was like, welcome.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
To the big leagues.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
I'm like, did you read the article and he's like, yeah,
I read it. He's like, well, are you gonna just
lay down and die? Are you gonna get up? Because
you didn't do any of these things.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I know you. I was there.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
So you have to fight back and you have to
be resilient because nobody gets a target like that on
their back unless they're important and unless people are threatened
by them. And he's like, you know so. So it
was devastating, so fucked up. And also it was this
feeling of I don't know if it's my ADHD or
(26:35):
if this is just my personality, but I'm very hard
on myself, Like when something happens, I think that I
immediately think of like every like I get so mad
at myself. I talk so mean to myself. Well, I
don't know what that is. Do we all have that?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Like in some monm I mean, you clearly have really
high standards for yourself. And I'm sure there's a huge
element that's cultural too, Yeah, coming from Mexico. And I
don't know how much of your Mexican life or family
impacts you or influences you, but I mean Mexicans hold
themselves to a very very high working standard.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Yeah, yeah, I think you know, in my relationship with
my dad is good now, and it just he's my
stepdad essentially, but he's not my stepdad and he's my
adopted dad. And I call on my dad and he
wasn't hard on me like he was hard on me
like a like you might imagine like a male like
(27:38):
a like a dad being to a son in business.
I don't know why it was like that, but it's
honestly probably part of the reason why I've been so
like ambitious in my life. But it's also tough when
you're not like Daddy's little princess, you know, and like
I never felt like I had that type of support.
(27:59):
So I always just was like, Okay, I have to
like be good and I have to like impress him
in some way. And that was always what drove me.
And so yeah, when when I kind of and and
also he was somebody that was like, hey, you're doing
something different, like maybe why don't you just get you know,
(28:20):
a regular job where you could be, you know, head
of marketing at a company. And I just didn't go
that route. And so it was all this like I
told you so, starting to come into my mind. It
was a dark place for sure, and especially when you
get canceled, it's very isolating.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Because we let's explain that, like people don't know what
it means to be canceled. No, Like I kind of
feel like if I were to get canceled, that means
I finally made it. If you're cancelable.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Yes, And I thought, well, do you need to look
at it that way in a way, because yeah, yeah,
there's so many different pieces of advice that you get
though too. It's like some people are like, oh, just
change your name and keep representing people. And then you know,
because there's two ways of being canceled. One is like
you could do something it gets you canceled, and then
two you could you know, things can be twisted to
(29:17):
make it look like you were canceled. One of the
reasons why it was so isolating is because I have
a very bubbly personality, and I kind of got through
life like just being bubbly and friendly to a lot
of people, and then people liking that type of energy
and wanting to work with me or wanting to do
(29:38):
stuff with me. And there was this level also of
kind of like being self deprecating or not, just like
kind of maybe oversharing, Like people knew that I was bootstrapped,
and they knew I didn't have like a big investor
behind me.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And I liked that about me.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
I like the fact that I was like, Hey, this
is my own money, I'm putting into this, this is
my own time. And so but when this happened, it
was like if I entered a room and said something,
I felt like, oh, everybody thinks I'm full of it,
Like everybody thinks I'm just doing this too, you know.
It was like my real personality got dulled because I'm like, oh,
(30:19):
maybe if I say this, people think I'm a bad
person or I don't know if that makes sense to
articulate it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, it's a it's a harsh climate to be a
young woman in. We're going to take a quick break
and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
One of the things I remember this happening is that.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
It seemed like there was people that had been talking
to the journalist and we're trying to like bait me
into doing something or saying something.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
And that's probably because the journalist called them and was like,
have you ever noticed Arib being xyz like erratic or
you know, staying up till three in the morning, or
who knows what she asked them, right, But I know
she did call people and be like have you ever
noticed that she did this? And I remember one of
my clients that stayed with me, he was like, no,
(31:15):
I never, you know, I never noticed her doing that.
And then I guess the journalist like got mad at
him and was like, I'm really disappointed in you. She
said that to a sixteen year old kid who she
called to try to get like bad information about me,
and he stood strong.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
But most sixteen year olds are gonna.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
Be like, oh, I don't know I guess maybe like
maybe I've seen her be like this. And so one
of the things was that initially I would sometimes stay
up really late and answer emails because these influencers were
getting emails like there's so many emails, are getting fan emails,
and then maybe a brand email would come in there,
(31:52):
and a lot of the managers were like letting those
emails go and they were going unanswered. And the reason
why I felt like I have to be on this,
like I cannot let one email go through that doesn't
get answered. And so I sometimes would be like, you know,
answering emails at like three in the morning or four
in the morning or something like that. But I knew
a lot of the companies were in New York, so
(32:12):
I was like, it's fine if they get an email.
You know, they want to get an email right away
if they want to do a brand deal with some
of these people. And I remember one of the influencers
that had like was a source for the story was
saying like, yeah, you just like you're just cracked out,
like on adderall and you just stay up at all
hours of the night like texting and answering emails, like
(32:33):
basically calling me crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
And I remember like thinking about it, I'm like.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Well maybe I maybe that's bad, Like maybe I shouldn't
be doing this, you know. And I started to kind
of believe everything, and then I think at one point
I was like, I need to stop this because this
is unhealthy. Like I'm not a bad person, Like I
make mistakes, but none of what they're saying. If I
did anything, it surely wasn't intentional. And second of all,
like I know for a fact these things are not true,
(32:58):
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
So, yeah, the article is written in a way where
after every paragraph it almost forces the reader to have
an emotional reaction, and it forces credibility to how the
paragraph was written. So it doesn't leave you thinking I
should question this. It leaves you thinking, oh shit.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
She fucked up.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
The world just believes what they see.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, you see the word journalists and you
believe it. You see actor, you believe them. That's why
they have so many actors promoting so many things that
they probably don't have any understanding of the science behind it. So, like,
what advice would you give to people to not just
take what they're fed, right and not just eat it?
Speaker 5 (33:48):
Well, you know, I think I wrote a Twitter thread
about this, and I feel like one of the things
is pay attention to the words being used because oftentimes
a word that will be used that is like more
traumatic or more like incendiary, but it could be just
(34:11):
describing something that wasn't that. So, for example, in the article,
the worst thing that she wrote and I ended up
suing the New York Times over this, but the worst
thing that the journalist wrote, which the judge in the
in my case against the New York Times said this
statement can move forward, was she wrote that I leaked
(34:35):
nude images of a client for revenge.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
That was what they were talking about.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
That was apparently the New York Times reviewed that conversation
and said that that was me leaking nudes was for
me to send it to my attorney and to the
to the influencer himself who was in the in the
in the tiny little pictures. So that's an example of like, okay,
she leaked new Like it's hard though to distinguish, right,
(35:03):
like how would you even know that?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And the problem is that I couldn't get ahead of it.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Like okay, so how did it conclude?
Speaker 5 (35:11):
So I it took four years. And this is what
people also don't understand about just getting into legal fight
with somebody as big as The New York Times is
that it took forever.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So the article came out in twenty twenty, and in
twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
Four, the judge had thrown out basically like fifty So
initially it was like fifty claims that we said that
were untrue. Then it was like narrowed down to five
that we said we could go forward with, so my
or that my attorneys would have to like rewrite the complaint.
(35:48):
And then we submitted like the five or six that
we said, okay, these are these can stay, and then
the judge.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think that's important for people to know though, is
you know that initial complaint where there's like eighty five
thousand things slapped onto it. Yeah, is literally the attorney
throwing everything they've got and it's gonna get it'll get
taken down to just a few relevant things.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
And that happens over years.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
And you know what's crazy too, is that at one
point I.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Did utilize social media.
Speaker 5 (36:24):
So every time that this journalist would do something like
being a bad actor towards somebody else, I would call
it out on Twitter and I think like that gave
it and this is all during Johnny Depp, so I
was very aware of what I was doing. In twenty
twenty four, the judge said one statement can move forward,
and that statement was the nude photos. And the reason
(36:45):
the only reason it could move forward was because Taylor
had written in pre publication emails to me, nobody's alleging
that you leaked nude photos publicly. So that was so
when you file for defamation, you have to prove malice,
and that means that like, you wrote something knowing it
(37:06):
was false, and so that the one word that everything
hinged on was leaked. So they were trying to say, like, well,
what is leaked mean? Can you leak something privately or
can you leak something publicly? So that was basically the
whole thing the judge. Most of the time these cases
get thrown out because it's so difficult. But the judge said,
your case can move forward. And after he said it
(37:29):
could move forward, the New York Times filed what's called
a motion to reconsider, which I was told that most
attorneys don't do that because that's like telling the judge
he's wrong. They filed that, and the judge a second
time said no, it can move forward.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
So that was like a huge victory.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
The mental health of the people, especially the ones you
talk about with millions of followers losing that platform.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
That scared me.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
That scared me to think about how these young you know, teenagers,
twenty year olds who are just fully in this and
then losing it suddenly, and they may still lose it
in the future. I just immediately, I just thought they're
going to end their lives, like they don't have the
skills to cope with this.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
It got too big, too fast.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
Yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of I mean
what I saw, what I've seen in social media. I
mean that's a whole other conversation, but it's like I
think it was like a perfect storm with the pandemic
and everything where people really do have their identities, like
you know, built on whatever they post on social media,
or if there's like bullies attacking them and they feel
(38:42):
like they can't get out of it, like it's just
after all this happened. I remember after finding the lawsuit,
like after're going on Tucker, like I had I had
feelings of that, Like when it was in a dark place,
I was like I didn't think about actually doing it,
but I just thought, like I don't know how I
can move forward, like I don't know how to And
(39:03):
I remember after but after I sued and after I
went on Tucker and after I started to get support,
I was like, I can't believe that I ever considered
that as an option, because it's like I just needed
to believe it was possible, Like hold my beer, I'm
gonna sue the New York Times, like I'm so proud
of that.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I know people are like, I'm so sorry that happened
to you. I'm like, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
I see the New York Times that I like got
my reputation back, and I have a bigger platform now
than I ever did. And to be honest with you,
like I don't. I'm glad I don't represent social media
stars anymore. I think I would have gone completely insane.
Even if I would have made a lot of money,
It's like it wasn't good for me mentally. Like now
I get to help like boomers with their social media,
(39:44):
you know, like plastic surgeons, and like I work with
basically business owners, small and medium sized business owners, and
I help them do short form video content for their companies,
and there's like millions of those people, right, restaurants and
you know, botox places or whatever. I mean, like spas,
I mean, there's this is like unlimited amount of people
that actually appreciate me and my what I know. And
(40:05):
so it was, but it was a shift of that, like, Okay,
just because it's not this thing that I want doesn't
mean it's the thing I'm meant for.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, So I like to I like to end each
episode with kind of a something that really resonates with
the world. And I think that's it is. We can't
just be one entity or one presence if it's TikTok
or Instagram, that's still social media, right. We have to
be grounded in reality and know our worth so that
(40:39):
we're not putting all our eggs into one basket, right, right,
especially the youth.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
One thing.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
I do hope that if anybody is listening out there,
that it's like a young person, don't do this. There's
a trend called like that's like a victimhood mentality, and
it's like everybody else, it's everybody else's fault, right, It's
like TikTok's closing down, and like I'm just gonna like,
you know, or or somebody rubs you the wrong way
(41:06):
and then you're gonna just say something about them.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (41:09):
It's I don't like that victim mentality. I've been there
where where I'm like, I'm a victim.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Like this happened to me. I can't.
Speaker 5 (41:16):
But it's like, try to snap out of it, because
the moment you snap out of it and you take
accountability and then you believe in yourself and you go
and do the things, then you're gonna who knows what
you can accomplish. So I hope people get that out
of the story.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I think that's wonderful advice, and coming from somebody who
who went up against, you know, one of the biggest
entities that we have, it's incredible advice.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Yeah, I thank you so much for doing this with
me too.
Speaker 5 (41:44):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been really nice.
And yeah, I haven't really even told this story anywhere,
so I'll make sure to share it everywhere. And I yeah,
I hope, like I said, I hope somebody gets that
something out of it, but my little miss Jacob everywhere.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yeah, So that's what.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
I was gonna say, is I'm not good at this. Okay,
how can people find you?
Speaker 5 (42:06):
I'm little miss Jacob on pretty much everything. My website
is little miss Jacob dot com. On YouTube, I'm Influences
YouTube dot com, slash Influences and h My company is
Creator Genius and we make short form content for small businesses.
So creator Genius dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Okay, I have some people I need to send your way. Okay, yay,
I'm like a few plastic surgeons.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Actually, you have helped meeting that needs some help.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I'm really grateful you're here, and thank you for listening
to another episode and meeting Ari and hearing her empowering
and amazing story. And hopefully you had some glimpses onto
the reality of things behind the camera.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
That's your next time.
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