Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson: Break the Generational Patterns Holding You Back (How to Build Confidence, Responsibility, and Emotional Resilience)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(00:25):
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Speaker 2 (00:45):
To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt
comes from am I doing enough?

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Me?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Michelle Obama to say that to a therapist. So let's
impat that former First Lady Michelle Obama and someone who
knows her best, her big brother. We'll be hosting a
podcast called I Am O.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
What have been your personal journeys with therapy?

Speaker 2 (01:06):
We need to be coached throughout our lives.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
And my mom wanted us to be independent children and
she would always tell me stop worrying about your sister.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Having been the first lady of the entire country and
representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to
have that kind of disdain.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
What would you say has been the most hardest, g
recent test of fear.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'm gonna make him start so that I don't start crying.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
The number one health and well in the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Jay Sheety Jay Shetty Jon.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you
come to become the happier, healthier and more healed. Today's
guests are two of my favorite people. I'm so grateful
and excited to welcome one of the back, and one
of them for the first time ever. I'm speaking about
none other than Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Welcome Purpose Dynamic.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
I always say, it's like your my most favorite interview
ever period.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
Oh my gosh, that's saying a lot.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh my gosh. Wow, you're gonna make me cry. That's
so sweet.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
She's the one who turned me on to you, so
this like old Home Week.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Thank you both, But honestly, I'm so grateful. I was
just thinking when I was preparing for this, I was like,
I wish my sister was in town because then we
could have double interviewed.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
All right, we're gonna we have to do that.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
She would have killed me if I did that to her,
because she's not She's an optometrist in London, the best. Yeah,
we're going to check your eyes for you. She's four
and a half years younger than me, and I still
remember the moment. Well, I don't remember the moment. It's interesting.
I've seen a picture of me holding her when she

(03:02):
was born, and I was four and five years old,
and so I have this memory that I held her
when she was born. Yeah, and we've been inseparable ever since.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Jay, you're gonna have to when she comes to town,
just don't tell her. Just tell us and we'll come
back and we can just ambush her.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, she will, but we have one of those pictures
to my favorite family picture. I was a newborn. I
was maybe ten months, but I was one of these big, fat, round,
puffy babies and a bonnet and a white dress, and
my dad was in a suit and a bow tie
and mom our Mom had the most beautiful tunic dress

(03:43):
on and Craig sat on her lap. I was on
my dad's lap and I have this little fat arm
and he's in a little bow tie and he's holding
onto my arm and looking at the camera like you
better not. You know, he seems so so concerned. You know,
he was about two years old.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Can we get the look?

Speaker 4 (04:05):
I was worried. I had this. It's just like, what
is going on? And I hold on because I was worried.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I don't know what they're gonna do to my sister.
But that that picture epitomizes our relationship. He has always
been my quiet protector, just and that sweet little face.
You know, he is the ultimate big brother. And he's
been by my side holding my arm like that for
my entire life.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Wow, I love that. And do you actually remember do
you remember the moment or it's the picture that you
remember that's.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
Just like yours.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
It's the picture I don't know, and I remember back
to when I was three and four some things, but
that when I don't. But when I see the picture,
it just warms my heart every time I see it.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I love that. I mean sibling relationships. As I
said in mine as well, My sister and I are
so close. Yeah, and we haven't lived in the same
country for nine years now, but we talk and stay
in touch and we're constantly connected, and I wanted to
stop asking you this question for both of you. That
I feel like the first time and my sister got
close is when I shared a secret with her, and

(05:11):
I was wondering, what was the first secret that you
ever told each other, as early as it was, as
silly as it was, that you remember sharing something in
confidence in the beginning, early days of your relationship.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
Okay, now you did this to me when you came
on our show. That is a question I've never been asked.

Speaker 4 (05:31):
I love it. I love it. You got me back,
you got me back? Okay. A secret, A secret?

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I don't know if it was a secret, but it
was a what felt like a secret practice of ours.
We shared a room for most of our lives, and
there came a point in time when our parents, because
we didn't have a lot of money, thought it's time
for them to have their own rooms. So they took

(05:58):
this one big room our grandfather's south Side, who was
a Jackla carpenter, built plywood a plywood tea wall that
went down the middle of this one bedroom and broke
the room into two little units that were big enough
for a twin bed and a desk and one of

(06:18):
those accordion doors, right, that was those were our rooms.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
And it was that that old paneling look, so it
was it was that fake wood that.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Was, and the and the ceiling didn't go all the
way to the top of the roof, and there was
a little crack in between the rooms by the window sill.
And when we were supposed to be in bed, we
would spend that whole night just talking in between the walls. Right,
we were supposed to be asleep, but go, Mesh, Mesh,
are you awake. I'd be like, no, And then we'd

(06:51):
have some deep conversation about life. And you know, every
now my mom mom would yell, go to bed, you're
supposed to be asleep, and we giggle and we just
keep talking. So I think we shared the secret of
not going to bed but having our own little breakdown
of the day. I don't even remember what we talked about,

(07:11):
but we were always supposed to be talking, but we
were constantly talking. So I can't think of a secret.

Speaker 4 (07:17):
So I can think of a secret.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
Okay, So this is the discovery of Santa Claus.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Oh, yes, that's a good one.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
So we Jay. As you know, we lived in a
two family home. We lived on the top floor, very
small apartment. Our great aunt Robbie and uncle of Terry
lived downstairs.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
And in our basement, which wasn't finished.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
It was a concrete basement, pillars, washing machine, furnace of
storage room. But then there was a table that was
like a workbench, and a refrigerator that didn't work or
it wasn't plugged in.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
It was a refrigerator, old time refrigerator. And we used
to go down there and play.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
We played hockey, we'd ride our bikes, we'd do all
kinds of stuff. And Mesh was down there once by
herself and came running upstairs.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
Great Greg, come here, come here, come here, and she
took me downstairs.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
She opens up the refrigerator and there are two empty
boxes for boxing gloves.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
Now this is June or July.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, little kids boxing gloves.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
We got boxing gloves for Christmas the year before. Oh okay, so,
and she deduced.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
The gloves are here. Santa wouldn't leave gloves.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
Gloveboxes gloveboxes because our mom didn't wrap the presence. She
set them under the tree as if Santa had just
brought toys and didn't wrap them, and I remember me.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
Saying, Mom and Dad are Santa Claus.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
But then the secret was we weren't gonna tell them
that we knew, because first of all, we didn't want
to deploy disappointment. Yeah, because it's like what a blunder, right,
So we sort of kept it to ourselves that for
a good year or two we knew there wasn't a
Santa Claus.

Speaker 4 (09:13):
Along, we played along. That's so funny. It's like living
a love. That's really And do your parents know that
the story? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, they were mad at our aunt Robbie. My mom
was particular because she was, like, I told her not
to keep those glove boxes. She was supposed to throw those.
My mom was furious because my mom was Christmas very seriously.
I mean, she decorated the house, She created a chimney
where there wasn't one. She was very crafty. She she

(09:46):
really took great joy in keeping this Santa Claus myth alive.
And the fact that our aunt Robbie spoiled it for
us sooner than she was ready to, she was not happy. Yeah,
they didn't have kids and didn't really appreciate it. And
she cared more about saving a couple of boxes than
you know, keeping the magic of Christmas alive.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Oh that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, that was a good one. That's why it's good
to have him here, because I wouldn't have remembered that.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Well, that's what's so beautiful about this, this relationship. And
it's interesting you both said, because we did the same thing.
So me and my sister shared a room as well,
and it's so interesting to hear about. I talked to
a lot of siblings and some are not close to
each other and some are very close to each other.
And you see that pattern in people who shared a room,
who talked about something every night connected. And that's how

(10:35):
I think me and my sister got used to talking
to each other, because that's who you dissected the day
with exactly. Even if it wasn't very deep and profound.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
At the time, we were stuck with each other, for
better for worse.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
I love that what was what would you say, was
something that you felt, a value that you learned at
that early stage in your life that you both feel
you've kept till today, like something that continue to be
a part of who you are today.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
My mom wanted us to be independent children. And she
would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister, because
whenever I did something, I wanted to include her. If
I was going outside and she was outside, I felt
like I had to keep an eye on her. I
felt like I had to protect her, and my mom

(11:27):
always said to not do that.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
First of all, she didn't want Mesh to have to
feel like she was being looked after by her brother.
That's what her parents were for, and she didn't want
me to have to worry about her. But I will
say that I couldn't stop worrying about her. So I
have been looking after her from the time she was

(11:53):
a little kid and I was holding her arm. We
ended up in college together at Princeton. And remember when
we drove move to South Carolina.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Uh yeah, We rented a car for spring break.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
For spring break and drove to South Carolina.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
And visit our grandparents.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
They had moved down there from Chicago, and we thought
we'd surprise them and the two of us were going
to drive, but I was so worried about her driving
that I tried to drive the entire way by myself.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
And you know, six hours later.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
He's starting to blink like I'm like, are you okay?
I got it? I got it, And I was like,
you know, I can drive.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
She's very capable and a very good driver. But I was,
you know, me and mister worry war. So finally I
had to just take care.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
I just have to go to sleep. I was like,
we'll pull over. I can do this. I drove us
the rest of.

Speaker 4 (12:43):
The way the way, but at every fifteen minutes after
I fall asleep, I'd be like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like,
are you okay?

Speaker 2 (12:52):
It's fine. Well for me, the value, it's the value
of family. It's the value of the no one you
can count on more than you know, your your siblings
and your mom and your dad. And I feel for
people who were raised with sibling turmoil, you know, or

(13:12):
turmoil in their household where they didn't feel safe at home.
And that was never the case. We felt poor, you know,
we felt like we didn't always get the stuff that
we wanted. But we always felt and it wasn't just
our nuclear family. We grew up in a big community

(13:32):
of family, were fortunate enough to be raised with all
four of our grandparents. They all lived within a couple
of mile radius of us. Even though our maternal grandparents
were separated, they lived in separate households around the corner
from each other, Wow, which was around the corner from
us cousins and uncles and aunts, and when times were down,

(13:58):
people would share homes. I remember when we were little
in Southside, our mother's father, who lived with a couple
of her sisters, their house burned down, their apartment did,
and I remember being really little, and there was a discussion,
or how are we going to help people out until
they found a new place to live. And so two

(14:19):
of our aunts, Carolyn, and there was someone else, stayed
in our little apartment and she worked nights, but she
slept in my bed and I didn't even really know
it because she would come in and just push me
over and sleep in bed with me, which was next
to Craig's bed. It was just this, when family's in trouble,

(14:39):
you step up. And I think to this day, throughout
all our travels travails being in the White House, we
retained that no matter what was going on in his
life or mine, we had some rituals, you know. We
did Thanksgiving together. His family came to the Easter egg role.

(15:01):
My niece and nephew, his oldest kids. Whenever we had
an interesting trip in the summer, Avery and Leslie always
came with us, so it wasn't just me, Malia and
Sasha on Bright Star the first Lady's plane, seeing Nelson Mandela,
or going on Safari or going to see going to Rome,
but averyan Leslie came with us, So it just made

(15:26):
the whole experience feel like we weren't on some island
just doing this really hard thing, but we were still
doing it as a family. So family values, I think,
is probably one of the strongest things we took away
and we made it happen in that little house on
seventy fourth in Euclid. It was just brimming with love

(15:47):
and conversation and trust.

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(17:17):
I love that. I remember last time we were together,
you were talking about just the kitchen table and just
the gathering of minds and family and how important that
is in Craig, I know your birthday is coming up too,
like it.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Is thank you day, thanks for remembering twenty first.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, absolutely, twenty first birthday. But were birthday is a
big part of connecting over the years as well or
as not not been, because that for my sister is
like the biggest day. She's like, my birthday is really important.
Do not miss my birthday, like I know.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Well, we never missed birthdays, and we always celebrated birthdays,
but they weren't a big deal like where we had
a party, Like I think you had one or two
birthday parties.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
And this is the tripped out thing about this generation,
Like kids have parties every year and multiple parties. They're blowout.
You know, it's a birthday month and you're renting something
and you're catering, and you know, I've been like our generation,
you had maybe thirteen maybe five years old, you had
two parties and they were at your house in the

(18:21):
kitchen table, right, you know, with your cousins and.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
You played pin the tail on the donkey in the
yard or somewhere like that. But but as a family,
we celebrated everybody's birthday and it was a big deal.
Every now and then that community of relatives that were
around us would come over and it didn't matter what
the day. If it was Thursday and everybody had to
go to work on Friday, they would come over and

(18:43):
sing Happy Birthday, gift cards out. Birthdays were always celebrated
in our family.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
They weren't like big like see me, bring me gifts,
but it was a time to gather. And we're talking
about the extended family. So my mother had said brothers
and sisters, and then the cousins and then our grandfather.
We were always at Southsides house for these birthdays because

(19:08):
that's the side of the family that did it. Every
There was a dinner and cards for every birthday for
all those people, you know, so it's almost like every
weekend we were celebrating somebody's birthday.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
That's what's been something that you've an idea that you've
had to unlearn since you were younger, something that you've
kind of had to let go of as time has
gone on. Something that was important before, but you're like, no,
it's not so important.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Talked about our grandfather's apartment being on fire. Fire back
then in the seventies was a real thing, like houses
caught on fire.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
People didn't have smoke, especially in working class, poor communities,
you didn't.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
Have smoke detective detectors.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
So I think we knew several kids who's homes caught
on fire.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
And I had to unlearn worrying about our house being
on fire. I mean, I grew up completely obsessed with
being able to recognize if the house was going to
be on fire number one and then having the ability
to get everyone out. And you know, our dad had MS,

(20:24):
and so he walked with a limp from the time
I could remember. He then had a cane, and then
he had the crutches that went around his arm, and
I would practice dragging him with his shoulder, with my
arms under his shoulders around the house and he would
I know it was humiliating, but he'd let me do it.

(20:47):
And my mom would be like, Craig, put Fraser down,
just stop doing that. And I went in to make
sure I could drag him through the house. And we
had like fourteen stairs down to get out. I didn't
drag him down there, but I knew I could if
I had to. That's something I had to unlearn because
that was a real fear of mine. Was a fear

(21:08):
of dying in a fire.

Speaker 4 (21:10):
Wow, Yeah, what did it take?

Speaker 3 (21:12):
Like, what was the Well, what it took was I
realized it was irrational as I got older, because there were.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
Less house fires.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
And I guess it wasn't irrational because there were actually
house fires. But the advent of smoke detectors and the
advent of sort of inflam non inflammable.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
Or what is it, non and non flammable.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
Items around the house, I was always worried about a
fire starting. And we had a fire start in our kitchen.
You remember, we were cooking pop tarts, which were like.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Saturday mornings, we kind of had the run of the
kitchen because that was the day Mom would sleep in.
And we had this old toaster and we were making
fad tarts and it caught.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Fire and came out, and the flame came up and
then sure enough.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Mom to the rescue.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Mom came in and put it under the same.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah. But as you talk about fear, when I think
about things that I think we had to subconsciously unlearn,
was fear because you know, we grew up at a
time and you know, just coming out of the deep
segregation of Chicago. But our parents and grandpa parents grew

(22:32):
up in it. You know, in a time when being
black in the city, you know, you were isolated. There
were areas of the city that you couldn't go into
because you could be literally harmed killed as a black person.
That was that was the truth of Chicago. As I

(22:52):
noticed in my family, fear, the fear of what could
happen to a black man, to a black person, kind
of consumed some of our elders and stunted their growth.
I mean Southside the grandparent that I talked about, he
was kind of a mama's boy. You know, his mom
our great grandmother, Mamma overprotected him and as a result,

(23:18):
he never really got his own footing because he had
a mom that was going to make sure you live
at home. I'll take care of you. He also had
limits as a black man because he was a carpenter
who wasn't allowed to join the unions, couldn't afford to
go to college. They were of the generation where even
if you were smart and talented, the ceiling was real

(23:42):
and the dangers were real. A lot of the reason
our family was so close right was because the elders
were keeping everybody close and they were slowly passing those
fears on don't go down this street, don't go on
this bus, maybe not take that job, don't try something
new because it could kill you. I think our parents

(24:05):
tried to actively unhook those those things from us by
pushing us out. I think they knew that they had
the tendency to suffocate their dreams because of these fears,
to not try new things, to not draw outside of
the lines. And I think they deliberately pushed us. So

(24:27):
there were a lot of yes is in terms of experiences, exposures,
Craig traveling on his AAU basketball league to other parts
of the city, even you know, because in a city
like Chicago, because of those fears, we had cousins that
lived on the west side of the city. We lived
on the south side of the city, in a neighborhood

(24:48):
that was right along the lake near downtown Chicago. If
you're a black kid growing up on the West side
of Chicago, we met kids that had never been downtown.
They had ever seen the lake. And if you've been
to Chicago, to be from Chicago and never see the
lake is a herculean effort. But you understand it when

(25:11):
you're a black kid from the West Side and you
viewed with suspicion. When you come downtown, you don't feel
welcome outside of your neighborhood, so your world gets smaller
and smaller. I think our parents did not want that
smallness for us, and we saw how that smallness kept
some really intelligent people in our lives in one spot.

(25:33):
You know. They didn't move, they didn't grow, they didn't
try new things. I had an aunt, my mother's youngest sister,
who recently passed this year, who never came to the
White House, and all the years that we were there,
she never came. Why because she was afraid of flying,
she was afraid of driving too long, She was afraid

(25:54):
of doing anything but leaving her house and going to
work and coming home. We saw that here, right, We
saw that, and you have to actively tell yourself a
different set of messages about what you can expect from
the world. And we also could have been limited by
that because while it physically limited some of our relatives,

(26:19):
some of our grandparents' perspectives, like many people in this country,
they were backwards thinking, you know, their views of white
people and who they could trust. You know, the same
south Side never went to the doctor because he didn't
trust doctors, so he you know, he never went to
the dentist. That's probably why he died in his seventies.
He didn't have a tooth in his head, but he

(26:40):
would never go to the dentist, you know. And we
would talk about these things around our immediate kitchen table
because our parents wanted us to learn from the mistakes
that they had made and others. And that was the
power of that householders. Our parents talk to us very
openly and honestly about some of the weird things you'd
see at Christmas dinner or some of the conversations, and

(27:02):
you'd come back and go, well, why did Dandy, our
other grandfather say that, Why did he yell about that?
What was he talking about? We were always allowed to
question and that fear element and the limitations on people's
views of the world we would see and discuss and
we were told, you have to do better than that.

(27:25):
You have to live beyond that fear. You have to
push yourself outside of your comfort zone. And I continue
to try to do that, instill that in my kids
and other kids to this day.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
I mean, that's such a profound thing to reflect on
when thinking about what on Leine, because it's so as
you said, it wasn't both of you us, but especially
this is something that isn't going to change based on
a mindset because it exists. Yeah, in reality, did either
of you ever have any close calls or run ins that,
oh yeah, that you would like to share?

Speaker 4 (27:57):
For all.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
You were got tenure, I was.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
I was probably more like twelve because I could ride
to Rainbow Beach, so figure out.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
Seventh grade ish a department store near.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Our house called Goldblatz had a sail on ten speed
bikes to kind with the handlebars that go under that
was brand new back then. They were yellow and they
sold a ton of them, and you got one.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
I got one to give your first ten speed bikes.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
And it had to I must have gotten it for
my birthday, so it was probably around this time of
the year. But it didn't come with the clamps to
hold the cables along the yoke. So my mom used
these twist ties that she got from the baggies that
you would put stuff in before you had the zip lock.
You had these bags and then you put these green

(28:50):
and white twist twisty ties on it. So she put
them on my bike. And there is a point to this,
I'm wondering what it is. So so I'm riding my
bike by myself down seventy fifth Street, which if you
head east you run right into Lake Michigan. And I'm
almost there and a policeman comes up to me while

(29:14):
I'm riding and I'm on the sidewalk and he's in
the street, turns his lights on, tells me to pull over,
and I stop, and I was like, officer, how can
I help because I'm always happy to see a policeman.
My uncle's a policeman, and you know, officer friendly in school.
And he said, where'd you get that bike? And I said, oh,
I got it for my birthday. I just got it.

(29:35):
I mean, take a look at I was proud of it.
I was like, this is my new ten speed bike.
He said, you stole that bike. Now, this was a
black police officer, and I was like, no, no, and
it was it was so out of the realm of
my mind to be accused of stealing a bike. I

(29:56):
wasn't even worried at first. I just said, no, no, listen,
you got it all wrong. This is a brand new
bike that I got. And he was like, I know,
you stole that bike. And he was basing it on
the fact that someone who had bought a similar bike
had it stolen and their mom used twist ties to

(30:16):
put them on the cables.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
So he wouldn't believe me. And so now I'm getting worried.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
And he picks up my bike and puts it in
the trunk of the car, puts me in the back
of the car and says, where do you live?

Speaker 4 (30:29):
And I said, I told him where I lived, and
he drove. I said, you'll realize this is my bike.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
We can go right to my mom's, right to my house.
So we pull up to my house and by this
time I'm in tears. I'm just beside myself. I ring
the doorbell, and my mom was worried because she knew
I was gone for her long bike ride. She comes
out and I said, the policeman has accused me of

(30:56):
stealing this bike, and I'm in tears. He comes out
and she said, wait inside. And I'm on our front
porch looking out, or actually I'm upstairs looking down because
we lived upstairs. I'm looking down and I see her
and I can tell she is pissed, and she is

(31:18):
talking to him like she would talk to us if
we were in trouble, and all I can see is
the policeman trying to defend himself. So after about twenty minutes,
she yells up to the window, Craig, come down here,
and she said, this policeman has something to say to you.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
And this dude took.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
Off his hat and apologized for accusing me of stealing
his bike.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
And as it turned out, they ended up finding the guy.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
But it was you know, that's kind of the collateral
damage of being a young black kid.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
I just think about all, you know, what would have
happened if my mom wasn't a stay at home mom.
What if she had been in work when that happened.
What if, you know, he didn't have a mom that
you know would stand up for him, What what if?
What are all the what ifs that that could have happened,
And that, you know is you imagine you're just having

(32:21):
a regular day and your son is pulled up to
your house in the back of a police car at
ten years old, at ten twelve years old.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
It was it was frightening.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
It was fright you know, And I think what she
was incredulous was about was that he wasn't even inclined
to believe this little boy, who was obviously articulate, didn't
look you know, you don't even want to say didn't
look like some little hood rat, because what does that matter? Right,
But that was you know that that was unusual for
us because we were good kids, I mean, and we

(32:52):
lived in a neighborhood where their kids were getting into
trouble all the time. And he knew all the kids
because he was a basketball player. He knew the game
kids and the drug dealers and the but everybody also
knew him, you know. And you know, when you grow
up in a neighborhood, people know the kids that are
heading in the wrong direction and the kids who have promised.

(33:13):
Everybody knew that Craig was a good student, he was
a good guy, and the notion and I felt the
anger too, It's like, how dare you do that to
my brother? But he you know, he had a support system.
He could have wound up in jail for stealing not
stealing a bike. So yeah, that kind of stuff happened

(33:34):
all the time, you know, walking into a department store
as a young kid and having the the you know,
salespeople wonder why you're there, and you're coming, you're an
honor student coming from high school, you know, having lunch
with your friends. I mean, they don't they didn't see
that part. There were times when that part of us

(33:55):
couldn't be We couldn't walk around saying valedictorian straight. A student,
you know, speaks excellent, has excellent diction if you give
them a chance. You know, we knew very early on
that that no one was going to see beyond the
color of our skin at an early age, and that

(34:15):
could get you in trouble.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah. I mean, when you talk about that fear, I'm
sure that fear has been tested across your life in
so many different places, and I wonder what would you
say has been the most hardest recent test of that fear,
Because it's not one of those fears that you kind
of get over in it just goes away. It kind
of shows its head in many different ways. I imagine.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Well, in this current climate, for me, it's you know,
what's happening to immigrants, you know, So it's it's not
the fear for myself anymore. I drive around in a
four car motorcade with a police escort. I'm Michelle Obama.
I do still worry about my daughters in the world,
even though they are somewhat recognized. So my fears are

(35:01):
for what I know is happening out there in streets
all over the city. And now that we have leadership
that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't,
and we know that those decisions aren't being made with
courts and with due process, and you know that it's
being made like this cop that pulled my brother over

(35:24):
when he was twelve. You don't look like somebody that belongs.
You know, I can determine just by looking at you
that you're you know, you're a good person, or you're
not a good person. And knowing that there's so much
bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that
fuels those kind of choices, I worry for people of

(35:48):
color all over this country, and I don't know that
we will have the advocates to protect everybody. And that
makes me, that frightens me. It keeps me up at night,
and I know that there are and I see that
when I'm driving around LA I'm just looking in the
faces of folks who could be victim, and I'm wondering

(36:09):
how are you feeling? How do you feel standing on
the bus stop? Do you how do you feel comfortable
going to work, going to school when you know that
there could be people out here judging you and who
could up end your life in a second. You know
that that's who I worry for right now?

Speaker 1 (36:30):
What do you both do with that fear? Because I
think that's very real and a lot of people listening
probably feel very similarly to both of you as well.
What do you do with it? Because it almost feels overwhelming,
and especially for someone going through it as you're talking
about with your daughters too, it's not something that you rationalize,
and you know it's not the same as so many

(36:52):
other fears, So what do you do with it?

Speaker 3 (36:54):
See, I still have a couple of young kids at home,
so I've got a fifteen year old and a thirty old,
So I'm still in the education process for those guys.
Because we you know, we live in a suburb and
we have a relatively safe environment, so our kids aren't

(37:15):
growing up with that kind.

Speaker 4 (37:17):
Of fear that we had.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
But I have to make them aware of it because
at some point they're going to be away from us
and they're going to be in a place where they're
going to encounter that. I'm trying to be as empathetic
as I can, because that's how we were taught to
deal with this kind of behavior. Our mom always said,
just put yourself in the other guy's shoes. He's probably

(37:41):
had a bad upbringing, an ignorant upbringing. His folks didn't
know anything, and that's how I always view people who
treated me with disdain because of my race, or because
of where.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
I'm from or anything.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
And I'm trying to help my even my older kids
who are thirty three and twenty nine, they're pretty much
formed and are handling things on their own. But it's
a good reminder to talk about this and put some
coping strategies together for especially our teenagers, because they're going

(38:18):
to they're going to encounter this at some point.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
I have to practice reverse messaging in my own head
about this stuff, because you can get locked in the
disappointments of what is happening right now, and you can
sit in it and let that eat you up, and
it can taint your view of so much. Having been

(38:46):
the first lady of the entire country and representing the
country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that
kind of disdain. You know, I had to remind myself
and put myself in situation that reminded me the ideals
and beliefs that I disagree with are not pervasive that

(39:07):
you know, there are a lot of good people out there.
Again employing empathy, but also reminding myself of the truth
of what I've seen and I've experienced that We're in
a confusing time, but it doesn't help me and it
doesn't help the country for me to grow cynical in
that space. So I kind of view it as it's

(39:30):
a duty as a citizen to not do the same
thing that they're doing and start making assumptions about people
based on my anger and fear. You know that I
have to assume that most people are trying to do
the right thing, that deep down inside, the vast majority
of us do not want to see our neighbors and
our friends and relatives live in fear. They just don't

(39:52):
understand what it feels like to be the target. But
if they knew, they would understand, which is why communication
and conversation is so important, because maybe if I can
tell a story, you know, if I can if I
can help them be in the shoes of someone and
that it can have that same empathizing effect that I'd

(40:15):
rather use that rather than become to become discouraged and
then suspicious and just be the you know, just do
what they're doing. I don't want to become that. So
it's a constant reminder, do not slip in to that
behavior yourself.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
I love that. I think that's such optimistic, hopeful, powerful mindset.
And you're so right, because if we all become cynical
and skeptical and negative, it only makes it worse for
us and worse for everyone around us.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, let me tell you I can. I can, and
I can be cynical, and I can be all of that.
And I don't want to set myself because in these
times it's hard. No one is perfect. But I try
to keep that to my kitchen table, you know. I mean,
I feel like when you have a platform and you

(41:10):
have a voice, there is a responsibility to use that wisely.
So yes, I yes, even I in going high, there
are times I want to go low and I need
to let that out. But I'm never going to let
that out in public because that's not even fully truly,
how I feel, you know, so just for our listeners

(41:33):
and viewers, it's like, yes, of course we all feel it.
It's just a question of how do we act on it.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
And you hear this, This is why we're doing imo, yes, right,
It's just to be able to take the lessons we've
learned and the experiences that we've gone through, and hers
being at the level of the White House and mine
being what they are sort of I'm still the regular
guy in the family. We're hoping that we can share

(42:03):
some of these with folks and learn some things from
the people that we have on Like you, just listening
to her do that, this is the most fun I
am having, other than hanging with my kids and my family.
I just get goosebumps when when you hear some good wisdom.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Oh yeah, I mean that totally, like you know it
just it was just such a refreshing take on what
I was saying, was is a valid concern, is a
natural feeling that people are having. But to flip the
script in our own minds as to how we deal
with it and that constant battle that we have to

(42:43):
have with the thoughts in our head. And I love
what you're doing with im I mean, I was so
grateful to be a guest on the show and to
visit you both in Martha's Vineyard, which was last year.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
I think it was.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, And first of all, I'm just so grateful when
I see doing it with families just special because already
you're seeing sides of each other that you never see elsewhere,
so you can tell how authentic and real it is
and true it is, which is so beautiful. And on
top of that, what I love about it the most
is that I feel the fact that you're doing a podcast,

(43:19):
which is the most accessible platform where you're giving I mean,
you know, when we were on like questions coming in
from the audience that we were tackling together trying to
hear from both of your experiences. And by the way, Craig,
you're saying that you you know, the normal, regular person
and the family, I mean, like you know, everyone has
a regular life. You know, it's amazing to hear it

(43:41):
from both of your sides. And the fact that you're
opening up, even just the way you did now about
these real life experiences that you've both had, I think
it's so needed because I think the challenge is that
when people do have success as both of you have had,
and the incredible heights of success that you've had, you
forget that. So someone was once scared that they were

(44:01):
told they were stealing a bike, or you know, that
they were scared about going down this particular street in
their neighborhood. And that's where so many people start out.
And it's not saying that everyone has to go and
achieve things externally in the world to get out of that,
but these are real emotions. And I think what you
were saying to me that resonated just now, Michelle, was

(44:24):
this idea that you've had to push yourself out of
that comfort zone and your parents wanted you to not
have that. What amazing parenting? Yeah, I mean, what phenomenal
parenting when you have every reason to scare your kids
into a corner, but you actually use it to expand
their vision up to the whole world.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
I mean, that's we were blessed, Jay, and the older
we get, the further down life's path we go as
we parent and parent young kids and adult kids, we've
come to appreciate how rare our parents' perspectives were for
or anyone, let alone for people in their circumstances. Which
is another thing reason why it's like, well, let's create

(45:06):
a bigger kitchen table. I mean, with the loss of
our mom this year, that was also a big impetus
to do this podcast, because the wisdom that she gave us,
it lives in us and as people who were raised
to be givers and to be mentors and to gain
joy from that mentorship. Truly, that's sort of a shared

(45:29):
attribute in both of us being able to take that
wisdom and I don't want to spread it to the world,
but to just let other people benefit from the little
nuggets of wisdom that our parents laid out in that
kitchen table, It's like, why not share it? You know,
the power of good parenting is too often underestimated, and

(45:53):
I think our parents came into parenting with a philosophy
like philosophy, and when you think of how most people
think of parenting, they just think, I want to have
a baby, And that's where it begins. It ends, I
want to have a baby. But then the question is, well,
why why do you want to have a baby. Do

(46:15):
you want to have a baby because you're lonely, that's
not gonna work out. Well, do you want to have
a baby to create a mini me to continue on
some aspect of yourself that you didn't achieve. Oof, that's
going to be a messy kind of situation. Are you
lonely and you want a companion? Do you want a friend?

(46:37):
I mean, if we actually sit down and piece that
stuff apart before we have kids, because parenting is a
hard thing. I think our parents, or at least our
mother for sure, she wanted parents because she felt the
importance of raising independent, kind, compassionate people adults, Like she

(47:01):
always said, I'm not raising babies, I'm raising adults. And
that completely shifts your approach as to how you parent
if you're not like just trying to raise a friend.
Because let me tell you, if you want a friend,
you never want your friend to be mad at you, right.
You want your friend to like you. And if you're
a parent and you're worried about whether your kid likes you,

(47:22):
I guarantee you you are screwing them up, right, because
so much of parenting means that you have to suffer
through them gritting under their teeth of ooh oh, mommy,
make me so mad? Why don't you ever? You know?
And it's like you can have those feelings you know.
But as my girls say that, their favorite phrase of

(47:43):
mind is I'm not one of your little friends. It's like,
you don't have to like me. I've got my own friends.
So you can don't slam your door. You can go
in your room, you can say whatever you want, but
you better not let me hear it. And when you
come out, you still have to do it because I

(48:03):
am not raising you to be my friend. I'm raising
you to be a human, responsible adult in the world.
And that's how our mother raised us. And I always say,
if everybody took that to heart before they had kids,
and they treat it parenting in that way, that would
solve a lot of the mess we're trying to deal

(48:25):
with right now. If parents just approached the job like
this is the biggest, most important thing that I'm doing,
and it isn't about me. It is about who this
little human is going to be and how they're going
to enter the world and are they going to be empathetic?
Are they going to be responsible? Are they going to

(48:45):
be an asshole out here? And you start doing that
when they're two and three and for all of that work,
is it starts that early? That's you know, if I
think of a mission for myself right now. Today, it's
really like having us all rethink the way we are

(49:07):
building the next generation and what our duties and our
responsibilities are, what we're getting right and what we haven't
been getting right, and how do we self correct. I'm
really like on one for just that thing, because we're
not going to be able to count on the government,
you know, I mean we're not right now. We're not

(49:27):
investing in education, so we can't you know, we're not
paying teachers enough. We're leaving this all on us. We're
saying we don't want to pay taxes for any of
this stuff, right, so we sure as hell better be
good at taking care of our kids because now we're saying, well,
then it's all on us and we can't afford to

(49:48):
get it wrong.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Mic Drop, that was like, that really hits hard. I mean,
that resonates so strongly, and I feel, as I was
listening to you, it's in one sense, and I want
to ask you this about this parents. I'm not a
parent yet, and partly it's because me and my wife
have these discussions. We talk a lot about what our
parenting philosophy is, and we've talked about it over the

(50:10):
years that we've been together. We've been together now for
twelve years and married for nine, and it's been a
topic of conversation and there's been things we haven't agreed on.
There's things we agree on, and we want to make
sure that we have an aligned viewpoint, even if we
have slight differences. We want to have an aligned viewpoint
of because we want the kids to get a clear message.

(50:30):
We don't want them to get Mom and dad have
different viewpoints and they're you know, they're arguing about trying
to figure it out, and it's hard. And I wanted
to ask you about this parents to think, you know,
you've both lived incredibly successful life. You went to the
best schools in the country. You know, you went on
to pivot and have an amazing career in your passion
of basketball. Like to even be able to do that

(50:51):
as a coach is incredible. Great right to be able
to pivot, which I'm sure took sacrifice and stress, And
I want to link it to parenting and of course
Michelle going to the White House raising kids while you're
at the White House, leaving them continuing, how did you
put parenting as a priority despite prioritizing your passion, prioritizing

(51:11):
the country and service, prioritizing your own marriages. Like I
feel like there's so much pressure on parents. We just said,
we can't rely on school, we can't rely on the government,
can't realize So that means it's all in this person.
How does a parent take that pressure in a way
that uplifts them and allows them to pursue their greatness too,
rather than feel completely paralyzed by it.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
The first thing that comes to my mind is that,
as Meche said, we were so blessed to have such
good parents. I feel obligated to be a great parent
as a tribute to my own parents.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Well, you also know what a great parent looks like.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
I do know what a great parent looks like. But
I also am so thankful for the sacrifices that they
made so that we could thrive.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
And it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
And irrespective of whatever my passion is, which is basketball
or coaching or mentoring, the first responsibility I have are
to the four kids that I brought into this world.
And that's an easy one jay for me to do.

(52:31):
So if I had to sacrifice my passion for my kids,
I would have Fortunately, coaching is a terrific environment to
raise kids because you're around other young people, and it
really is like having fifteen kids instead of just four.

(52:52):
I would say there is a discipline that comes with it,
and you talked about this being aligned. We call it
united front in our house. No matter what we're thinking,
we are going to come to an agreement when it
comes to all right, let's give some advice to this kids.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
This is the advice.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Sometimes it's what Kelly wants and sometimes it's what I.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
Want my wife Kelly.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
So there's a coordinated communication, there's discipline, and then most
of all, and I think I hear the word me
time and parents of these young parents. You know, my
parents never talked about me time. Their me time was
our time. And I know from a mental health standpoint,

(53:41):
we all need to get away and be on our own.
But I would do that after I made sure my
kids were solidly on good footing, before I was worried
about I need a vacation with my boys to go
to Vegas. And I just saw my dad and you
talked to about it. He was a shift worker for

(54:02):
the City of Chicago, but he made time no matter
what shift he was on to attend our events, to
play with us when he got home, no matter how tired.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
He was, he made us the priority.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
So it's not hard work for It doesn't feel like
it's hard work for me and for us. We just
had really good role models and we were well coached
in parenting.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Well, when you think of talk about the pressure, I
do think that these days parents feel a lot of pressure.
But we're like taking on the wrong pressure. Like we
feel responsible for our kids' happiness and success, right, so
we put a lot of pressure on making sure they achieve,

(54:54):
like making sure they don't fail, making sure they don't
feel bad or they don't experience disc appointments. So a
lot of that emotional energy we're taking on is in
my view, it's misdirected and it takes a lot of energy.
If you think that you're responsible for your kids to
happiness right, and it's it's a whole lot of energy

(55:18):
if you think your kids should always be happy. I
mean that's a current parenting generational angst. Like no generations
before us, you know, cared about whether their kids were happy,
let alone being responsible for your happiness or that you
should be happy all the time. It feels like that's

(55:41):
a new phenomenon, right, you know. I mean we just
think of all the work that we do to keep
our kids busy and you know, engage, and we sign
them up for this and sign them up for that,
and you know, we're taking them here and we're taking
them there instead of just going go. Maybe you're going
to be bored today. You know, what are we doing
on Saturday? Mom? When I was growing up, the answer

(56:04):
was nothing, you know, and my mother went on with
her day. You know, we're kind of taking on a
lot of that. My mom always said that I am
going to help you own your life as early as possible,
so you know, so that it's not my life. It's

(56:26):
not my failure, it's not my homework, it's not my
going to school, it's yours. And when you start giving
your kids their lives early, which means you got to
let go, there's a worry in that. But if you
start letting go, it's like you got to wake yourself up.
You gotta make your bed, you gotta wash your plate,
you can get to school, you can figure it out.

(56:46):
You got to figure it out. And I think these
days parents don't want to. They don't want that process
of watching their kids figure it out. And I get it.
It is hard to watch the person that you love
literally walk into a wall that you see, you know,
because our instinct as parents go besweety, no, no, no,

(57:09):
you were walking right into a wall. Let me stop
you and sit you here and be safe with me.
Now I feel better, right, And the truth is is
that sometimes, at least I've learned with my kids, they
have to walk into that wall, they have to bump
their head hard, and it hurts me to see it.

(57:31):
But I found that they learn faster that way than
me keeping them from bumping their heads, and there's a
release with that. It's like it's a different kind of
difficult thing that you're dealing with, right, You're dealing with
your own emotions and watching somebody that you care about
go through tough stuff. But there's no other way to

(57:53):
get them to be independent other than dealing with that pain. Right.
And I always say, as I told Barack, I was like,
you know, we either do this stuff early and deal
with it, have these hard kind of conversations, deal with
these mistakes and failures when they're ten and five and thirteen.

(58:13):
Then rather than having them live in our basement at
thirty five for the rest of their lives. It's like,
I don't want a kid in my basement. So I've
been Our parents parented us not to be in their basement.
You pay your bills, you handle your business. That's our model.
Are you handling your business? That's a certain kind of parenting.

(58:36):
But if you make that investment early, you know, if
you do the hard things, if you make your kids
sleep in their bed, if you tell them no when
they're five, if you teach them boundaries and don't let
them talk back and help them be socialized beings by
setting forth some real hard to manage boundaries at three
and four and five, you're not even dealing with a

(58:59):
lot of these issues at sixteen because they've practiced something
else in your presence. And so now sixteen twenty, our
girls are All of our kids are joys to be with.
They all live on their own. Our kids have an
Obama tax that we will continue to pay just to
cost on their life that is not their own. So

(59:20):
there's certain places that they cannot live, where they can
afford to live. There's certain things like that. But all
of our kids, they don't want our help because they
get gratification in saying they did this, and that comes
down to choosing the college that they're going to go to.
I may not agree with you, it happened. It's like,

(59:40):
I don't think you're gonna like that school, but it's
got to be your choice. You know, I don't think
you're going to like that girlfriend, it's got to be
your choice. I gotta look the other way. I gotta
and then I've got to be there with you after
you make that mistake, going it's okay, let's talk about it,
you learn, let's you know. But I my mother was

(01:00:04):
staying out of our lives very early in our lives,
and I think that's something that makes parenting easy in
one way but emotionally difficult in another way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Yeah. Well, and I really really appreciate the clarification of
reprioritizing that pressure, because the pressure we're placing, as you said,
on the winning, the succeeding, the it's almost misplaced. There's
a distinction that I'm hearing from both of you in
coddling an individual and cultivating independence. And when we think

(01:00:39):
of more love or more support, we think fix solve
control is done right. That's what we think love is.
We think love means you have no problems. We took
care of everything, and we're here for everything that you need.
And actually, what we've realized is love is setting someone

(01:01:00):
up to carry themselves exactly and fix themselves instead of themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
And feeling the confidence in being able to do that.
They competence is love too. And you know, I always
want my kids to know that I do trust that
you have good sense. I do you can do this,
Watch you do it, and just see how kids light
up when they accomplish something on their own. And when

(01:01:28):
you're if you're the fixer, you're robbing your kids of
that sense of self satisfaction. I fail, It hurt, but
it was me. But when I succeed, it's also me
and sometimes you know it's parents. We want that victory.

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
Mish does a good job talking about how people don't
like friction, and sometimes you need friction as a parent,
especially those who are doing the coddle. They're doing that
for themselves. You are not helping your kid by doing it,
because parenting this way is hard and it causes friction

(01:02:11):
in your inside. When we say okay, you can take
your scooter to the store and go pick up some
stuff and bring it back.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
That's hard.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
It would have been easy for me to take you
to the store and make sure you got back in
the car. And nothing made me feel better about doing
this kind of stuff was when I found out that
our parents were deathly afraid of us traveling on our own.
Mish had an opportunity to go to France. I played

(01:02:41):
bitty basketball, and there was a trip to Kansas City
and to New Orleans, and we came to find out
later that our parents were fearful of us going on
these but they we talked about the same reasons we
talked about, but they did it anyway because they knew
it was important for our development. And I just thinking
about the adjita in their stomachs, ex when they're letting

(01:03:06):
go of you.

Speaker 4 (01:03:07):
Know, your kids are leaving town and doing things they
never did.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
They never did, They never got to travel when they
were young. They didn't have the resources, they didn't go
to college, they didn't go off their block, out of
their neighborhoods. You know, So imagine the fear of sending
your kids to do something going out Princeton, you know,
the day they let him leave to go to some
school in some place where they knew nothing about the rituals,

(01:03:33):
the prestige, you know, the kind of confidence in your
parenting philosophy that it would take to execute that. When
we were growing up in a community where people's parents
wouldn't even fill out their fasciforms because they were afraid
of their kids going to college. So they held on
to their kids. They said, go to the state school

(01:03:55):
down the street because it will make me, deep down,
it will make me feel better because I don't don't
want to let you go. Don't go out of state,
don't leave the home, don't go out of the neighborhood.
A lot of parents parent out of fear, and it's
fear for themselves. It's real fear, for sure, you know.
Do not get me wrong. It is the hardest thing

(01:04:16):
to do, which is what makes parenting so hard, which
is why people really have to think before they bring
kids into the world, because it's hard. It's hard in
some really obvious reasons, and it's hard in some ways
that you will never understand until that that little person
is breathing in this world. How they will make you feel.

(01:04:39):
You will love nothing more. So I understand it, but
that's why we get a lot of it wrong because
we're operating out of fear. Sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
We've talked a lot about the differences in how you
were parented, how things have changed, and I feel like
one of the biggest talking points of today for parents
and children is therapy. Like therapy seems to be a
conversation that's opened up that a previous generation either didn't
have access to, didn't believe in, couldn't afford, didn't value,
which some of those challenges still exist today with affordability

(01:05:10):
and accessibility. But what have been your personal journeys with
therapy as a form of working on your own self
and then of course your children as well.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
I would say I was your typical guy when it
came to therapy, and typical guy of color, because I
wasn't exposed to therapy until I got to college and
I found out that kids my age were going to
therapy and I was like, well, what is going on

(01:05:44):
in that head?

Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
Because I didn't understand it. Now you jump ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
In my first marriage, that was when it hit, when
it started to have trouble. We would go to couple's
therapy and then I would go to therapy.

Speaker 4 (01:05:58):
On my own.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
And I really that my last statement about not knowing
what therapy was and not doing it, I just did
it in a different way. My therapy was the barbershop.
It wasn't church for me because I wasn't a church goer.
But for some people it's church. But for me, it
is fellowship with my good friends that I can tell

(01:06:22):
stuff to. But I wasn't a real therapy guy until
I had trouble in my first marriage. But I'm happy
to say that my two older children are regular therapy goers.
And it just warms my heart because it wasn't like
I said, you know, you guys should go to therapy.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
They just kind of did it on themselves. So I
am a big believer in it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
And I'm sure people have used this analogy before, but
we tune up just about everything in our lives.

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
We tune up our cars, we tune up our electronics,
but we don't tune up our minds and our emotions.

Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
And we should. And I have to say that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
You got into therapy, I think before I did, and
that kind of opened my eyes to it too, even
before I was having trouble in my marriage.

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
So you can share share your experience.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Now, I believe in all the therapies that Craig just outlined.
I believe in the friendship therapy. I believe in the
power of sharing your challenges with other people that you trust,
and that can come in many forms, and it has
for me. I am a talker and I think you know,

(01:07:40):
our family was you know, our first therapy was the
kitchen table right right, and our first therapists were our
parents and our family members. Because you'd have an experience
that you needed to it's something you needed to let
off your chest, something you had to let go of.
And we have parents that create did a safe space

(01:08:01):
to speak openly and honestly. They didn't treat us like
children at that table. They treated us like thinking beings.
So it was very early on that we learned the
power of our own thoughts and to trust our own emotions.
And with something felt off, you know, we were encouraged
as like, no, you're not crazy, you're seeing what you're seeing,

(01:08:22):
and yeah, you're angry, that anger is real, but you
can't show it this way.

Speaker 4 (01:08:27):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
We were validated at our table, and that's what therapy is.
It's a validation, and so very early on, I sought
out the company of girlfriends, friends I could trust and
that we could talk to and we could have that
validation and present honestly. And as I said in my
book The Light, you know, I cultivated those tables throughout

(01:08:51):
my life. You know I had that those table. I
needed that table in college when I was we were
one of a few black kids on an all white
Ivy League school campus. We needed a safe place to go,
which might have been the Third World Center, right where
minority students gathered. I found a mentor in an older

(01:09:13):
administrator who was my confidant during those days, small mini sessions.
Right then, when I got married and started having kids,
I built this amazing community. We built together, this amazing
community of moms parenting young, young kids and babies. And
we started getting together every Saturday, taking our kids to

(01:09:35):
all the activities, but sitting around, maybe opening a bottle
of champagne and shedding our feelings and our fears and
exchanging ideas. But I've also been to a formal therapist because,
as Craig said, I think we need to be coached
throughout our lives, and I think therapy is a form
of coaching where somebody objective can come in and say,

(01:09:58):
have you thought about this? Yes, this way, you're entering
a new phase of life. How are you thinking about it?
Having somebody that has a skill set to help you
shape a paradigm. I fully believe in that. I believe
in couples therapy. I believe I believe in it all.
Whatever works for you. And at this you know, phase
of my life, I'm in therapy right now because I'm transitioning.

(01:10:23):
You know, I'm sixty years old. I've finished a really
hard thing in my life with my family intact, I'm
an empty nester. My girls are in you know, they've
been launched. And now for the first time, as I've
said before, every choice that I'm making is completely mine.
I now don't have the excuse of, well, my kids

(01:10:45):
need this, or my husband needs that, or the country
needs that. So how do I think about this next phase?
And let me get some help. Let me unwind some
old habits, let me sort through some old guilt that
I've been carrying around. Let me talk about how my
relationship with my mother has affected how I think about things.

(01:11:08):
So I'm getting that tune up for this next phase.
Because I believe this is a whole nother phase in
life for me, and I now have the wisdom to
know let me let me go get some coaching while
I'm doing it, so I've got other voices other than
people the people who know me best. I've got a
new person that's getting to know me and seeing me

(01:11:28):
completely new and hearing all these emotions. I am an
advocate of it. Everybody needs to find their form of
it the best way they can. For some people, it's
podcasts like ours, you know, that are providing people with
that therapy. And it's one of the reasons why I'm
excited about doing these things, coming on yours and developing IMO,

(01:11:53):
because I hope that maybe for the people who are
a little bit skeptical of it, that these forms become
the place where they start at least getting some ideas,
you know, and thinking wow, I never thought of it
that way. I never saw it that way. And maybe
they'll never go to therapy, but they come here for
ninety minutes and they, you know, they find some answers

(01:12:14):
for themselves. I firmly believe in it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
Yeah, I love what you were saying about needing them
at transitions where shape shifting and molding, and it's almost
like ever since someone graduates, if they went to college,
it's like from that point on you just left to
figure it out. And it's almost like they were these markers,
Like when you went from elementary school to high school

(01:12:37):
to college, there were markers, and there were transitions, and
there were summers in between where you knew what was
coming next. And then you become an adult and then
now there's not really the well, there are the markers
of get married, you have kids, you get to a
career success or whatever it is, the kids leave, as
you said, but there's no real transitionary summers anymore. There's

(01:12:59):
not not everyone's talking to you about, hey, what's going on.
And also there's less there's less formal training for those
transitions that are so emotionally tough because you're you're almost
grieving an identity you had, but then knowing there's a
new version that exists, and that push and pull of

(01:13:21):
do I stay or do I go in all of
areas of your life. And I wonder, Michelle, from your
perspective and then of course from yours as well, Craig,
like and you mentioned their guilt, like I was like,
what was the what is the guilt that you feel
you you're having to learn to let go of or
in the beautiful upbringing you had, like what were the
things that you're like? But these are certain ideas that

(01:13:42):
aren't serving us anymore or aren't helping to who.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Much is given, much is expected. I feel incredibly blessed
in this life, you know, And it's almost like knocking
on wood. It's like, let me never take it for granted,
let me always find ways of giving back. And so
the guilt comes from am I doing enough? You know,

(01:14:05):
which is a form of am I enough? Right? That's
the guilt of feeling should I do this next thing?
Should I say yes? When I say no, I mean
because there's so many requests, there's so much you can
possibly do in life that you could never stop. And
I do hold guilt to tell somebody that is asking

(01:14:28):
for help or need something to say I can't or
I don't want to, you know, I need to even
say those words. It's hard to I don't want to
do that right now. It's like unpacking that right. So
to say that too for me, Michelle Obama, to say

(01:14:51):
that to a therapist, you know, I mean, my therapist
is like, what you still think you haven't done it?
And I was like, honestly, yeah, it's like so let's
unpack that, right. So yeah, that's you know, that's probably
what overachievers. We're all dealing with that in some way. Right,

(01:15:15):
when's enough's enough? Where's the bar? Who sets it? We're
setting it for ourselves, and we keep setting it so
incredibly high right at all times, and then I'm thinking about, oh,
what am I modeling for my girls? It's like at
some point, you know, I used to say this to
Rosalind Carter, you know, you the Carters. They were giving

(01:15:38):
until they were you know, they couldn't walk, you know.
And when I was in the White House, every year
Rosalind Carter was set up a meeting, you know, because
she want to talk to a set of issues and
things she wanted to do and update me on everything.

Speaker 4 (01:15:52):
She was just she was just, she was she.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
They were those people constantly doing it. And I used
to joke with her when she was in how must
she have been when I'm in office? That requires math.
So let's say she was in her early eighties or
you know, she was an older woman who had done
enough and I used to joke it's like, if you
don't stop, because you're my bar, right, And I don't

(01:16:17):
know that I want to be coming to the White
House with an agenda list when I'm in my eighties, right.
But then I realized it's like, well, that's her bar.
That doesn't have to be my bar. What if my
bar is different? And so now I'm practicing out some
different bars for myself, right, some different limits, and seeing

(01:16:40):
how I really feel in those limits rather than what
I think I'm supposed to do. So you know, that's
you know, it just makes me sigh just saying it,
but that's how my brain works, and so sometimes you
need help with right sizing your thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
Thank you for sharing that being so open and vulnerable,
because I know it takes a lot to be able
to say what you're saying in therapy, to say it
out loud, and I can see the emotion in your
face that it's not you know, something you're grappling with,
it's real. So you're working on it right now. And
I hope that gives everyone who's listening. I know it
will give everyone who's listening and watching courage to think, yeah,

(01:17:19):
you know, like maybe I'm setting the boss too high
for myself, you know whatever. That maybe or a different question,
but thank you, Yeah, Craig.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
I'd love to No, no, no, that's I actually thought
me she was going to touch on this a little earlier.
But our mom whent and you've been so gracious to
say nice things about us and our success and all
the wonderful things that we've been able to do.

Speaker 4 (01:17:49):
Marian Robinson.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
Our mom used to say, my kids aren't any different
from the kids they grew up with, and she is
absolutely right. She would say, I was fortunate enough not
to have to go to work, and we encourage them
to work hard. They never said you had to get
straight a's. They just said work hard, have high self esteem,

(01:18:13):
you know, treat people nicely. But she always bragged on
the kids who we grew up with, and kids around
the globe.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Yeah, she would say, there are a million machiness.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
She would say that, and that's I take that to heart,
and that's where my guilt is. I am fortunate to
be sitting here talking to Jay Shetty in his studio
about myself. It's just as it's almost embarrassing because I

(01:18:48):
feel like my mom, like I grew up with a
ton of guys who could have been bond traders, could
have been easy, and they just had some different decisions
and different parenting and different different bumps in the road
that they couldn't handle.

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):
And I do feel guilty about that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
Which survivors remorse.

Speaker 3 (01:19:10):
Yeah, and it explains my sort of wanting to be
philanthropic with my time, my emotions, my stories, because they're
but for the grace of God.

Speaker 4 (01:19:22):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:23):
And so she when when she would say that, I
would it'd be like, what are you going to say?
She's absolutely right? She is absolutely right, and she was.
She led by example. So not only did she parent us,
but she was up at the school parenting other people, helping.
I remember when she taught this kid how to multiply,

(01:19:47):
and she said, like a before there were room parents,
she just came up and volunteered. And she was teaching
this young kid who was in my grade, fourth grade,
how to multiply and he just couldn't figure it out.
And she said, multiplication is just adding multiple times and

(01:20:10):
he was like, well, I can't figure this out, and
she said, use your fingers, and he said, I don't
want to use my fingers. I'm in fourth grade, I'm
embarrassed to use my fingers, and my mom would.

Speaker 4 (01:20:19):
Say, well, then don't show anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Just put your hand on your desk and press down
on your fingers.

Speaker 4 (01:20:26):
I was like, that's ingenious, that's ingenious.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
But she was sharing the kind of knowledge with others
that we got that every day, every day when you
know so, I feel a little bit of survivor's guilt
when it comes to the opportunities that I've had in
my life, because I do feel like she does that

(01:20:51):
it could have been anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
You've both been so gracious and generous with your time today.
I could truly talk to you for another three hours,
but I'm going to end with one last question for
you each, well maybe two, maybe one. One one last
question for you each. It would be for you to
share with each other what you believe your mother would

(01:21:14):
be most proud of, but of each other.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
All right, I'm gonna make him start so that I
don't start crying.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
If you could say what your mother would be most
proud about, Michelle, if she was here with us today.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
But if you can, there's so many things that my
mom would be proud of. She would be proud of
her as a parent. Well, another one of her greatest
compliments was the fact that she never had to worry
about her grandkids. That that warms both of our hearts because,
as me said, you know, our older kids are off

(01:21:46):
and running and not bounced back. And that made her
felt feel like she taught us how to be good parents.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
And I think and it was the gift of allowing
her to be just grandma.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
Just a cool grandma, because she didn't have to discipline, discipline.

Speaker 4 (01:22:07):
Or raise or yeah house.

Speaker 3 (01:22:10):
She could just come over and candy for everybody, jump
on the couch and do whatever you want. And she
really relished in that role. I think I think she
would be proud of Mesh for that. I think she
would be proud of how Miche has been able to
have a colossal effect on so many people. And that

(01:22:36):
is white House. Notwithstanding white House is gone. Look look
at what she's doing now, I mean it is It
is a massive, massive lift, uplift for so many people
who don't get to to you know, be her sister,

(01:22:56):
be her brother, or be her husband or or child.
So I think those are two really good things. But
most importantly, she would be very proud that she is
a terrific wife because we all revered my father, all

(01:23:18):
of us, my mom, the kids, all of our relatives.
He was like the beacon in our family, and my
mom was tough on him, but she loved him. And
Mish reminds me of that with her relationship with Barack.
Just because you the president of the United States doesn't
mean you're getting off easy. My mom would like that,

(01:23:42):
But then she would be like, he's got a lot
of stuff going on. Don't be so hard on him,
you know what I mean. It's just I think she
would appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
I like that. It's the good ones.

Speaker 4 (01:23:54):
I'm a podcaster now.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Run this UF for.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
What sums it up is that Mom would be so
proud of the fact that you're a good man in
the world and that you have been a good father,
fathering for a long long time and passing on the
that's a dig because he's an old dad, right, this

(01:24:21):
is still long, long, long time, but passing on the wisdom,
you know, showing up in the world in a way
that would make Dad proud, living out his his his
view of what it means to be a man, and
then sharing that with a lot of other men. I
mean the fact that she would be proud of the

(01:24:42):
fact that you walked away from a lucrative career in
finance to help other young men figure out how they
can be fast and strong but good too and build
a life for themselves. That you've taken that same that
that same wisdom and you find always to continue to
multiply it to who much is given. She'd be proud

(01:25:04):
of that, and that you're still here right by my side.
I think that would make her proud.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
Thank you both so much. I am so grateful to
welcome you to the world of podcasting. I hope everyone
who's listening and watching goes and subscribes to IMO. You're
going to get so much wisdom, so much insight from
two of the smartest, brightest minds, but two people who
have such sweet, soft hearts. And I love that combination
that you both bring of being absolutely bold powerhouses, but

(01:25:36):
in the times I've got to know you both and
spend with you both, you also have the most beautiful
hearts and that combination is unstoppable, and I am so
excited to see what you both do in.

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
This next season of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Thanks you are family, Yes, sir, Yes, we just have
to meet your sister.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
Yeah, we're going to drag her up. We're going to
drag her up here.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:26:05):
Thanks man.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my
conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up on how
to stay with your partner when they're changing, and the
four check ins you should be doing in your relationship.
We also talk about how to deal with relationships when
they're under stressed. If you're going through something right now

(01:26:26):
with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the
episode for you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,
and we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll
just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's
never sleeping

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