Simon Sinek: Not Every Friendship Is Meant to Last—And That’s Okay! (THIS is How to Know If It’s Time To Walk Away From Adult Friendships That No Longer Fit)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You start to realize we just treat friends like these
disposable things, which I find so upsetting. Is to have
a successful marriage, to have successful work, to be able
to manage stress in our lives. Friends, they're the ultimate biohack.
They fix depression, they fix anxiety, they fix an ability
to cope with stress. Multiple times best selling off They're.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
One of the greatest thinkers of our generation, one of
the most impactful voices in the world of leadership. Your
best friend thinks the person you're dating is not right
for you.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Sometimes not all our partnerships are understod by our friends.
Very often they don't tell you until you after you've
broken up.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
How should introvets think about friendships differently to extroverts?

Speaker 1 (00:37):
The rules are the same. Every friendship should be additive.
They should be worth the time and the energy that
we invest.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
What do we do when we feel the people around
us don't believe in us?

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Anybody who wants to have an impact in the lives
of others has to get used to the idea that
not everybody's going to like you and number one health
and Well.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
In his podcast Jay set Jay Shetty, Hi, everyone, welcome
back to on Purpose. I'm so grateful that you decided
to tune in today. Today's guest is someone that I've
been excited to have on the podcast for a long
long time. I interviewed him in a previous life when
I was at the Huffington Post for one of my

(01:17):
first ever followed the Readers series, and I couldn't wait
to have him on for a story that last yare shortly.
I'm speaking about the one and only Simon Sinek, best
selling author, speaker, founder of the Optimism Company, known for
his groundbreaking work on leadership and purpose. Simon's Ted Talk
on the concept of Why has been viewed over sixty
million times, and Simon's books, including Start with Why Leaders

(01:41):
Eat Last and The Infinite Game have shaped how leaders
inspire action and build impactful organizations. Simon also hosts his
own amazing podcast called A Bit of Optimism where I
Got to be a guest, where he talks to people
who inspire him about life, love, and leadership. Please welcome
to On Purpose, Simon Sink Simon. I'm so happy to

(02:01):
have you here.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Jay. It's been a long time coming.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Oh my gosh, So I have to tell you so
when I got to New York and I got given
my own show. It was on Facebook Live, and you
were top of my list, and you were launching a
new book that week, and I just I was so
excited to tell you the story, because the story I
told you in the hallways of the huff Post where
that when I was a monk, one of our monk

(02:25):
teachers was giving out Start with Why as a gift
to the monks, and he said to all the monks,
he was like, you have to read this book. This
is important reading. And the jory of the monks were like, well,
it's not scripture, so who cares? Like it was like
this kind of not the best monk attitude if I
read it, very very unmonkey, But that happens too. I

(02:46):
read it and it was life changing, and it was
life changing, not because I was starting a business or
because I was a leader. It was actually life changing
from a life perspective. So I applied Start with Why
to my life and that was remarkable for me. So
I wanted to share that story.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Really had no idea so badly then, I mean, I mean,
how long ago was that? I mean that was a
very long time.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Ago, nine years ago? Ah yew six.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
I remember exactly where it was too. I remember that building,
that big white building down and where it's like astor
place or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
So I wanted to ask you because I was thinking
about that experience in that moment, and by the way,
a lot of your work has felt that way to me.
But I wanted to ask you. If someone read all
your books, they listened to all your podcast episode, they
watched all your YouTube videos, what type of life would
they be leading if they listened, watched, learned, and applied.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, the key is there is applied. My work fundamentally
is about human beings. It's about who we are as
human beings. It's how we relate to other human beings
and how we connect with other human beings. It's fundamentally
about relationships. That's what the work is about, which is
one of the reasons I think it resonates and continues

(04:02):
to resonate over time, and why I'm not really threatened
by AI or anything like that, because it really is
about this. It's the ability to make eye contact with
somebody and how to connect with somebody. And so I
hope that if somebody is a student of my work,
they're on the same journey that I'm on, because all
my work is semi autobiographical. You know, the life they're

(04:24):
going to be living is a life filled with support
and love, where they'll still have ups and downs, and
they'll still have their struggles, but that they will feel
equipped to take on those struggles with greater confidence and
greater calm and have that same skill set to do
for their friends, that they can be a rock for
their friends who are going through difficult things as well,

(04:45):
even if they don't necessarily know the solutions.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
You're talking about. Your work's obviously been about human relationships.
What has surprised you most about human behavior? In what
you've looked at when it comes to friendships, relationships, romantic.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's all I mean, look, you know this, it's all
remarkably consistent. You know that the problems we have at
work are the same problems we have at home, or
the same problem we have with our friends. It's all
the same thing. You know. I can give advice to
somebody who's a leader in an office or a mid
level middle manager, you know, or entry level, and I
can give them advice, like if you get a response

(05:21):
that's above a five, it's about something else. Okay, And
if I'm giving somebody relationship advice, I can say, if
you get a response that that's above a five, it's
about something else. You know, Like it's always the same
thing because fundamentally, it's just human beings trying to get
along with human beings. Now, obviously the contexts are different,
the goals are different, but fundamentally the breakdowns and communications,
the repair that needs to be done, it's all very

(05:43):
similar stuff. It's listening, it's how to give and receive feedback.
It's how to have an effective confrontation, it's how to
hold space. It's all the same. And it's always funny
to me because you know, I'll work with every industry.
I've worked with every single industry, and they all think
they're problems are unique and all their problems are the same.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah. I learned that when I went on my world
tour two years ago. We did nearly forty cities across
the world, and everyone was like, oh, what was this place?

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Like?

Speaker 2 (06:14):
What was that place?

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Like?

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Of course there were local quirks. They were like Australia
had more banter, Like everyone quipped back if you made
a joke, and everyone in Boston was very handsy, like
everyone would like grab me when I walked in the
crowd and be like, pick my girlfriend, take me up.
You know. It was very like active. But overall we
laughed at the same things. We cry at the same things.

(06:35):
We we get excited about the same things. We ooh
at the same things, like there's this and I wanted
to tell people that. I was like, wait a minute,
I just went across the world, and like you're saying,
you went to every industry and you saw that. Why
is it? Then? Belonging an identity feels like it needs
to be found in that which is different. Right, we
find a different football club that gives us a sense

(06:56):
of identity, we find I'm in a swim club or
a run. I like nonfiction books. I like fiction books,
Like what is then the dissecting of that for finding identity,
belonging community. Where does that kind of come in?

Speaker 1 (07:09):
As an aside, It's really funny because when I do
travel around the world, I don't change any of my stories.
I don't change any make cases. They alsoy, please don't
use American examples, and I was like that's fine, and sure, sure,
and they again they all understand the lessons. They all
laugh at the same places, their responses are different. Like
the English they sit their stone faced and I'm like,

(07:32):
am I bombing here? And at the end they come
up to me like that was amazing. It was like
you give me a little love. When I'm on the
stage where the Americans is, you know, it's all it's
all right there. What you see is what you get.
But we can't belong to everything because then there's no
such thing as belonging. And it's not sufficient to say, well,
we're all human beings. I mean, you know, we're tribal
animals and our sense of safety comes from feeling safe

(07:53):
in the tribe. And so the question is, well, what
are the definitions of the tribe? And it can come
in many different ways, and we can be members of
multiple tribes simultaneously. You mentioned some of them. You know,
I like this football club. I'm a member of this church,
this company, this group of friends. I have this common interest,
you know, whether it's a run club or comic con
or whatever it is. And we look, we look for

(08:13):
those common things so that we feel psychologically safe. And
the quickest way to feel psychologically safe is somebody who
looks like me, worships like me, acts like me, has
the same hobbies as me. Those are those are superficial
and those are easy, and the real close memberships come
when we can share values. But it makes perfect sense

(08:34):
why we would want to make things smaller and smaller,
you know, it's it's it's remember the Doctor SEUs book,
the Sneeches. It's like, we want, we will want to
belong and the easiest way, the best way to belong
is if we're different from from them. You know, then
I'm belonging because I'm different to you, but I'm like them.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, it's like that idea of you can only get
groups to organize if there's a common enemy. It's like,
if we know what we're against, then we know what
we're for, and it kind of becomes easier to organize. Humans.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
It's easier to know what you're for when you can
see what you're against, because knowing what you're forward tends
to be pretty ethereal. What you're against tends to be
pretty tangible. And so we're very visually driven animals, so
it's very easy to default to that which we can
see countermeasure, and so that's why we tend to be
you know, love metrics and things like that. We think

(09:23):
about the end result, the metrics, the money, before we
think about well taking care of the people, the culture
of the leadership. Because one is easy to measure and
one is hard to measure, right, not that it doesn't exist,
just hard to measure. And so the same thing. I
can more easily have a sense of what I stand
for if I can see what I am against. Yeah, exactly,
and the nuance there is. Yes, common enemies are valuable,

(09:46):
But when it becomes what I would call more healthy,
is I know what I believe, I know what I
stand for, and I can see what's standing in the way.
I'm not particularly anti this group. What I'm for is
on the other side of it wall, and so I
don't necessarily want to hurt you or harm you, but
I need to find a way to get through this,

(10:07):
to get to what's on the other side of the wall.
Whereas if you don't have a sense of purpose, if
there is no cause, then I don't know what I
stand for. I just have the wall, and it's easily
to rail against the wall. But the problem is what
happens if you get through it. And we've seen this
time and time again, which is very easy to rally
against something and then you destroy it or you win
or whatever it is, and then you're like, we didn't

(10:28):
think we'd get here where. When you're purpose driven, you
always know what's in the distant future, even though there
are obstacles along the way.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah. I don't even think it's the language that we
use anymore in society, But there's this feeling around everyone.
We know that there's a loneliness epidemic. People are more disconnected.
I think I read a statistic that said, like sixty
five percent of people feel disconnected from others and the
world definitely purpose is lacking, or vision is lacking or clarity.

(10:59):
And it's interesting because even though and I don't think
we necessarily talk about it in that way to your friend,
Like you don't wake up and call your friend and go,
I have no purpose today, Like I don't think people
really do that on a daily basis. I think people
wake up feeling brain fog and exhausted and overworked and
burnt out, Like that's the language that we use, but

(11:21):
they're connected, yeah, right, Like that's kind of the space
in which you sit, which is recognizing that well, we're
dealing with all of these things, but they're actually coming
from a lack of all of this.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
I think that's really right. And what we think is
the cause of things are very often symptoms, or if
we do recognize them as symptoms, we falsely diagnose what
the cause may be. So let's take one that you mentioned,
which is burnout. Right, I'm feeling burnt out. It must
be because of my job, right, it must be because
of my boss. It must be because of my career. Right,

(11:52):
it makes sense. It's where I feel it, right, But
perhaps it's something else. Perhaps it's a sense of loneliness.
In fact, Heill, she came on the podcast and explained
this to me. It was amazing, which is she was
in the military and she's got her troops and there
was an issue with burnout and people were exhausted, they

(12:12):
were struggling, and they all said, I'm burnt out, and
they didn't know what to do. And there's nothing they
could do because the tempo of the operations, the ups tempos,
was intense and it's not slowing down. So what's a
leader supposed to do when the team says, I'm burnt
out and I can't keep up right. So I'm not
even sure what her motivation was. I have to go
back and listen, but I think maybe it's because the

(12:33):
way she felt. She simply asked the room, how many
of you are feeling lonely? And the number of hands
that went up was astonishing, and she realized it wasn't
the ups tempo, it was the sense of loneliness that
was giving the feeling of burnout and the feeling of overwhelm.
And so the way she dealt with people's burnout was

(12:53):
not by giving them vacations or giving them days off.
What she did was she did the hard work of
helping them not feel alone, checking in with them as
human beings. And I think people's burnout started to subside
when somebody was doing the hard work of making sure
they knew that they were they weren't alone in this world.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I mean, I love that example because it completely shifts
your perspective because you're over here trying to solve this problem,
and then you realize, oh, it's actually over here. There's
almost more places to belong, but there's less bigger places
to belong. So in the past, like you said, you'd
have church or your place of worship. The company was
a big part of your identity, and then family was big,

(13:34):
and now families are spread over. Even myself, like my
wife and I don't live anywhere near our family. You
don't live that close to your family, So that's kind
of broken over time. Places of faith some people have them,
but they're not as popular.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Church membership is down yet, yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Exactly, So that's there as well. And then on top
of that you have the breakdown in company in terms
of people. Not necessarily people either loved where they work
or they absolutely and it's a chore. So you're losing
these very big places of belonging or at least if
you see the words on a wall, you don't believe
that they're lived. And so there's a disconnect. Should we

(14:13):
be relying on our friends now? Is that where we
have to go? Or where do you go when you
see these big symbols of belonging kind of disconnected?

Speaker 1 (14:22):
So, I mean you're touching on something which if you
go back to like the nineteen fifties, right, which is
we went to church for our sense of values. Work
was just a place to make a living. They took
care of us, and we took care of them. When
we were work decades at one company that was considered normal.
You know, you got your sense of community from the
bowling league, and you knew your neighbors and sometimes you
even had barbecues with your neighbors on the weekends. That was.

(14:43):
And so there were these There was a sense of community,
and there were many communities to which we were able
to partake, with with whom we were able to partake.
And then things change. The world changes for various reasons.
The bowling clubs went away, church membership declined, don't really
know the neighbors anymore, and all of a sudden we
started putting pressure on work to fill all the voids.

(15:04):
And now I want my work to give me a
sense of values and purpose, and I want work to
provide my social life, and I want work to provide
my sense of community, my sense of belonging. And now
let's throw politics in. I want my work to match
my politics as well. And it's not a good thing
or a bad thing. It just as it is. And
most companies are ill equipped to even know what to
do there. You can't push back because it's the world

(15:26):
we live in. And so companies now actually do have
to make some decisions where and how they want to play.
And we do have to offer some sense of belonging
community instead of values, because that's where else are people
going to get it? And when you ask about friends,
you know, I find friendship and the concept of friendship
super fascinating. You know, if you ask most people are
you a good friend? Most people say I'm a good friend.

(15:47):
And if you peel the onion just one layer, you
find out that most of us are not great friends.
Right would you cancel on a friend for a meeting?
Would you cancel on a meeting for a friend? Oh,
but my friend would understand. You know, we sort of
take our friends for granted that way. If your marriage
is struggling, what do you do? You're good for couples
counseling because you don't want to just throw the relationship away.

(16:07):
We've invested this amount. We're going to do the work first.
And if we can't do the work, then okay, but
we're going to do the work. Why aren't there friendship counselors?
Why is there no friendship therapy? I saw it happened
just two weeks ago. Two people who defined each other
as best friends. They talked every day something happened. They

(16:28):
both blame each other, but there was there was a fight.
They haven't talked since, and I've talked to them and
said what's going on. They're like, the friendship is over?
And I was like, well, isn't it worth What about
the friendship leading up to it? How can you just
walk away from it? Maybe I was wrong, maybe they
were never my friend, which of course is complete nonsense,

(16:51):
you know. And it was just so upsetting to me,
the fragility of the friendship and how we treat friendships
so differently, and the skills of good friendship are the
same skills. We've talked about it before. Relationships relationships are
the same skills as marriage or any kind of romantic relationship,
you know. Do your friends know how to hold space

(17:11):
for you when you're struggling? Do your friends know how
to listen to you when you just need somebody to listen,
not fix? And I mean, I'll tell you from personal experience.
I was accused by many of my friends that I
was a terrible listener. And I would say, you do
know what I do for a living, right, you do know, right'

(17:32):
I'm a great list a professional. I'm a great listener.
And then I took this listening class, and what I
learned was that I am a fantastic listener with people
I will never talk to again for the rest of
my life. But it came to my intimate relationships and
my close friends terrible, terrible, terrible, And just because I

(17:54):
had the skills, I wasn't applying them to the place
that was actually more important than anywhere else. The first
thing I did after I got out of this class,
I called all my close friends and I was like,
I just found out I'm a bad listener, and I
owe you an apology. They're like, yeah, what took you
so long? Right? But the point is is the skills
are there, and sometimes we actually are good at applying
them in different contexts and circumstances at work or whatever,

(18:17):
and we're junk at applying them to our friends. And
the irony is is for you to have a successful
romantic relationship or a successful marriage or personal relationship, you
need to have good friends around you because when you
have stress in that relationship, you've got to have a
safe space that you can go vent or talk it about,
talk about it, or get advice or get perspective. Somebody
will slap you around and be like, that's your fault.

(18:38):
Right when things go wrong at work, you're struggling with
a colleague, you're struggling with a project, you're struggling with
your boss, you're struggling with you know, whatever it is,
you better have good friends who can give you perspective,
slap you around and tell you know that's on you.
But then where do we go when we're having friend issues?
You know, and you start to realize we just treat
friends like these disposable things, which I find so upsetting

(19:00):
because the joke is to have a successful marriage, to
have success at work, to be able to manage stress
in our lives. Friends, friends are They're the ultimate biohack.
They fix depression, they fix anxiety, they fix an ability
to cope with stress, even the obsession with longevity that's
going on right now. You know, people talk about blue zones,
and you know Dan Buner's work, and everybody talks about

(19:22):
their Mediterranean diet. Now they walk everywhere, and but there's
very little talked about how they have dinner with each
other every single night that they are convening with friends
all the time. You know, we don't talk about that.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
I want to dig into that a little bit because
I feel similarly, and it's interesting. I observe two types
of people. One type of person was never that close
to their family and therefore friends became their family. And
then there's the other type of person that's so close
to their family that they rely less on their friends.
So when I look at my wife, she's really close

(19:56):
with their mom, and she's really close with their sister,
and they are her friends. They act as our friends
in all of the ways you mentioned. And when I
look at me, someone who was less close with my
family or my family unit, even though me and my
sister are good friends and my mum is too, my
friends became my family. So I'm very focused on developing
community beyond family because that's what I've always had to

(20:18):
rely on. And so it's interesting when you look at that,
because you're like, all right, well, is it that those
of us who have family don't invest in friendships as
much because we don't need them.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
I think it's a good question. I don't think it's
an either or. I think it's a both. And again, remember,
if you go back to how we evolved, you know
we're tribal animals. We lived in groups never bigger in
about one hundred and fifty ish, you know, plus or minus.
And what worked was you had your family, of course,
but the community helped raise your kids. It's really funny

(20:50):
if you look at just you know, rich and poor, right,
those who have and those who don't. Like if you
go to sort of a poorer neighborhood, people sit on
the front porch and their kids play in the front,
and they raise each other's kids. And as soon as
you start having any kind of wealth, you move to
the back and put up you put up fences and
you have to raise your own kids. And you know,

(21:13):
the idea that the community looks at for the kids
is actually correct. Like that's how how we sort of
work together. So I don't think it's either or. I
think it's a both. I mean, I don't know if
you've ever did you ever have the chance to go
to Dharavi in Mumbai?

Speaker 2 (21:26):
No?

Speaker 1 (21:26):
No, no, So Daravi Darvey is the largest slum in Bombay
in Mumbai, And just to give you a sense of scale,
right Manhattan, it's thirteen miles long, two miles wide. It's
about twenty six square miles and the island of Manhattan.
The residents are about one point five million. One point
five million people live on the island of Manhattan. So

(21:48):
if you've ever visited Manhattan or seeing pictures of Manhattan,
you can get a sense of population density. Obviously the
population goes up during the day during work, but you
can get a sense of the density over twenty six
square miles. Okay, Daravi is one square mile and there's
about seven hundred and fifty to one million people that
live there. They're not one hundred percent suor over the
exact number, so you can just imagine the intensity and
the density, which is why when disease shows up, it

(22:10):
just it runs rampant, right because it's just so close
and you walk around Derrivey and it's it's not sanitary,
and there's like live electric wires hanging down and if
you touch one by accident, you're a gonner. And kids
are just running around by themselves or with their friends
because the community looks out for them. You know. It
is an amazing feeling of looking out for each other.

(22:33):
And when you talk about belonging, and because we do look,
we look for it. When when we look for things
to join and we push our kids to join things.
So they have these these friends, and it's easier for
kids because they're at school. Right. So kids go to school,
they're about the same age, they have the same similar stresses,
the same teachers, the same homework, same same same, same, same, same, same,

(22:53):
and so common experience is really the same stresses of
adolescents and growing up, and like they have very common experience.
It's very easy to connect as soon as you leave school.
Still pretty easy because your entry level with all the
other entry levels, all bumbling and fumbling trying to make
a career. And then all of a sudden it starts
to separate. Your friends started different ages and now you
don't have common experience, and I think friendship you Actually,

(23:14):
it's more difficult as we get older, not less difficult.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Absolutely, And that's why I want to dig into it
because I can agree with you more, especially for people
who have moved. I remember the first time I interviewed
a brit on the podcast, and it was different. It
was this really different connected with them so much. That
makes sense, Yeah, but I hadn't. It didn't like register
until I did that, where I was like, wait a minute,

(23:39):
why do we have so much chemistry and I was like, oh,
wait a minute. Of course, we both talked about football,
both grew up in some part of London, like, had
similar types of friends. It makes sense, and it makes sense,
but it didn't register because I'd been interviewing Americans for
so long.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
I'll give you a funny analogy, right, just just to
just to drive the kiss them, because beating a dead
horse is kind of my thing. So are you friends
with everybody in California and you live in California? Are
you friends with everybody in California? No? Of course not right,
it's ridiculous. But if you go to Michigan and you
meet somebody from California, you're like, hey, we're from and

(24:13):
you're like connected. Okay, Now you go on holiday. Let's
say you're in Paris. You're standing on the Paris Metro
and you hear an American accent and you, hey, where
you guys from. You're from Michigan, We're from California, and
you're like best friends. Right, Because when you don't feel
like you belong, you look for anything that gives you
some sense of safety. Somebody who understands a little bit

(24:33):
about how you grew up, a little bit of your perspective,
even though it's back at home, it's entirely different. And
the biggest joke is the level of trust that family
from Michigan will be like, oh, you've got to try
this restaurant, and you'll turn to your wife and be like, honey,
we've got to go to this restaurant because strangers who
don't live here told us it's really good. But if
a stranger from Paris, did you got to go to
this restaurant, you' be like, I don't even know who
you are. Why would I trust you recommendation?

Speaker 2 (24:56):
You know.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And it's the sense that the tourists are looking out
each there even though they have no clue, you know.
And that's how powerful this thing is. That when we
get any inkling of somebody who quote unquote gets me,
our speed to which we will trust them is or
at least try to connect with them. It's so huge.

(25:17):
So the fact that you're living in America, you know,
stranger in a strange land. The first brit you're just
like humming. It makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from
our sponsors and back to our episode. Do you believe
there's a way to feel that way with more people
if we're feeling disconnected or can it only happen when
it's correlated in the way?

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Great question, So as we goes right back to what
we said before, which is we you know, the tangible
stuff is just easier because I can see it. Right,
So it makes sense why neighborhoods look the way they do,
you know, it makes sense, right, we want to live
and hang out with people who worship like us, look
like us, sound like us, live like us. Whatever. It is, right,
and that can be based on anything, but it's superficial,
which means the connections aren't necessarily there, and once you're

(26:04):
in the neighborhood, it kind of disappears anyway, Right, you
ask the question right at the beginning. You know, somebody
who sort of applied my work, what woul their life
look like? Well, this is what happens when you learn
to start with why. Because when you learn to stop
thinking about your life in terms of what I do,
what I look like, what I sound like, what I
you know, all of these superficial things, and you start
thinking of yourself in terms of who I am, why

(26:26):
I'm on this planet, what are my values? And more important,
you learn the language of how to express those things,
you will more efficiently and more quickly find people who
actually view the world and live the world like you.
So and this is you can do it in a
personal context, you can do in a business context. And
I'll give you a real life example. So when I

(26:47):
first learned my why, I didn't know how to tell
people about it, And so I stopped asking the question
what do you do? What do you do? I would
tell people what I believed? Right, what do you do?
Is really easy? You know, I'm a doctor, I'm a lawyer,
I'm a consultant, whatever, Right, And you're sitting on a
plane and somebody says what do you do? And you go, oh,
I'm a doctor. Unless they need a doctor, that nobody cares, right,

(27:10):
And so I started saying what I believed. And it
took a probably one hundred, one hundred and fifty tries
of me bumbling and fumbling different ways of saying it
so that people weren't look at me like I had
three heads, right, and eventually I had the perfect elevator pitch.
So I'd sit on a plane and you know this
is pre internet, you know, we actually talk to people,
and somebody would say, what do you do And I

(27:30):
would say, I teach leaders and organizations how to inspire people.
The people who believe what I believe would say, inspire cool,
how do you do that? We're talking about me for
the next tw and a half hours. We're connecting. We're
becoming friends, I mean instantaneously, right, We like, really get along.
The people who don't believe what I believe would say

(27:51):
what kind of companies. It was a it was a
filter instantaneously because I was presenting my beliefs and those relationships.
Some of them I made friends on planes, and some
of my friends today I believe it or and I
met them on random flights years ago. And it's one
of the reasons that we connect with some professions more

(28:12):
than others.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Right.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
So I tend to have really good relationships with folks
who serve in the military because I'm pretty open about
my sense of service that I believe true purpose is
the opportunity to serve those who serve others. They kind
of live their lives very similarly. So the minute we
show up or like, gotcha, you know, and so there's
at least a common thing I don't necessarily like them all.
They don't necessarily a like me, but there's a good

(28:35):
foundation to make make a real friendship. And so I
think the opportunity to understand one of one's own values
and beliefs and to say them often, you know. I mean,
you know, when I blurb a book, for example, I'm
really sort of strict about it. Like if somebody asked
me to blurb their book, I always insist that the
way they list me is it's Simon Sinek optimist and

(28:58):
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, all the things
I've done after I tell you who I am, because
if you cut that list off after who I am,
I don't care what goes after it. And the number
of people like author New York Times best selling post podcasts,
blah blah blah, which is fine, but that's not who
you are. There's just stuff you do. They're just make
anybody connect with you. They just go, oh, I know

(29:20):
the podcast, Oh I read the book, you know. And
our identity doesn't come from our credibility. Our identity comes
from our beliefs.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
I remember the first time I went on television and
they were like, what do you want the chiroficial, lower
the chiron the thing to say, and I was like,
I don't. I wanted to say, dedicated to helping billions
of people find their purpose. Yeah, something like that, something
like that, and I was like, that's what I went
and they were like no, bit Jay, like that is it,
and I'm like, but that is who I am, and

(29:47):
I relate. I so relate to what you're saying, because
I never set out to be a social media creator,
or to be an author or to be a podcaster.
To me, these are just vehicles. They're just exactly all
mats of district, exactly mediums. They've got nothing to do.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Nothing, which is one of the reasons why I can
speak for you, I think, but for me for sure,
which is I'm super flexible as to how I get
my message out. You know, what got me here won't
get me there. And I'm not I don't define myself
as a speaker or a writer or whatever. Everything I've done.
I never thought i'd write a book. I never thought

(30:24):
i'd have a podcast. I never thought i'd be a
public speaker. And so for me to walk away from
any of those things, it's super easy because not who
I am. It's just something I did. And even if
I'm good at it's okay. But there are other new ways.
And so, you know, the idea of reinvention, I think
is sort of a misnomer, right, because I'm not reinventing.
I'm just taking a different route. I'm just sitting there

(30:45):
with a map, going, well, that road's going slower, why
don't we try that road over here. I'm not reinventing.
The reinvention comes in the car I'm driving, or the
or the destination. And you know, my destination is fixed
to the world in which the vast majority of people
wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are,

(31:05):
and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.
There's only one destination. How I get there wherever the
best root is. And so I think that you see
it a lot when people get really good at something,
they're very afraid to change it because they confuse the
destination with the root. They confuse the goal with the journey.
Even though everybody knows all the tropes. You know, it's

(31:27):
not about the destination. It's about the journey, like we
all know that. But and I understand because the skills
set or the thing that did is what got me
to where I am, and to change or move away
from that is very scary. And it's only scary if
you don't have a grounding and why you do what
you do. Because as soon as you know why, it's
really easy. Yeah, because you start to see the hierarchy

(31:48):
that the why is more powerful and more important than
whatever route you chose or chose you because it could
have just been a sign of the times.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you don't get you don't get disappointed.
I was just talking to someone this morning on a
Q and A. You don't get disappointed when the platform
doesn't reciprocate. So what I mean by that is if
your wise, what you just beautifully said is to I'm
paraphrasing completely, but to help people using the skills you have.

(32:19):
If you get rejected, you don't think it's no to
what you're committed to. You just realize that's just not
where it's going to be disseminated, and you can continue
to try and find a new place for it to
be destributed. Whereas when you think, oh, this is a
rejection of my idea, you actually let go of the
idea that you so deeply carried.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
So if I decide that the best way for me
to advance my messages for me to join the NBA
become a professional basketball player, I will learn very quickly
that that's not going to go well. Yeah, right, And
so do I go home depressed or do I say, well,
maybe basketball is not the best way.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, you know exactly.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
And it's an interesting rabbit hole to go down because
it raises the question. And I can't remember you and
I've talked about this before, but knowing when to quit.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
I think we did on yours.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, yeah, which because you know, there are some people
that say, nope, you never quit. That's what grit is.
And there's some people say nope, there's a time to
walk away. And the question is okay, but when when
do you apply grit and when do you walk away?
And my rule has always been if the sacrifice is
worth it, you keep going. Right. So, I'm exhausted, I'm tired,

(33:29):
But is it worth it for what I'm trying to do?
Is this sacrifices, this cost that I'm paying worth what
the outcome is going to be? And if the answer
is yes, you stick with it. If it's not worth it,
if the sacrifice no longer feels and that's the only standard.
Does it feel There's nothing to do on a piece
of paper, there's no pros and cons. Right, If the
sacrifice feels worth it, you keep going in. The sacrifice

(33:50):
no longer feels worth it, you walk away. That's healthy.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
I want to link with that, back that idea that
we're discussing here, back to friendship, going to your point
around not having friendship therapists, which I love the idea
that we don't go to therapy for our friends. How
do you know when it's okay to outgrow someone or
keep growing with them in the same ways we were
literally just talking about.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Right, So friends, friends, any like, any relationship needs to
be additive. Right. That doesn't mean every single time, but unbalanced.
We should all feel that who we're hanging out with,
who are spending time a non redeevable commodity. You can
spend money, you can lose money, you can make more money,
but if you spend time, that's it, that's gone. And

(34:35):
so we want to make sure that the people with
whom we spend time it's additive to our lives. You
get to define what additive means. Additive can means you
fill me up, you inspire me. Additive can mean I
just have a freaking rock and good time with you.
Additive can mean you give good advice, you define outever
you want. But I think on balance, our friends should

(34:55):
be additive. They should contribute something to our lives and
to our works being. And it absolutely happens for not
necessarily bad reasons, where for whatever reason, you just outgrow
each other. Sometimes it's just the natural ups and downs
and weirdnesses of life. You know, it's easy to be
friends when you're local. Your career takes you across the country,

(35:19):
around the world just harder, and those friendships sometimes fall away.
Nothing personal. Sometimes we outgrow people. That absolutely happens. I
had a friend who we would hang out a lot.
We were friends. We would get together, we would talk
about how much we hated our bosses and what we
hated about work, and I would try and make changes
in my life, get new jobs, take myself on, become

(35:41):
a better leader, and we would keep getting together, and
his problems were always the same. And you know, a
couple of years go by and I'm realizing I'm having
the same conversation with somebody who, for whatever reason, doesn't
want to take themselves on and doesn't want to listen,
and had advice for everybody but couldn't take it. And
you realize, I can't be in a friendship if I

(36:02):
can't serve my friend. Yes, I want to get from
my friends, of course, but I also want to give
to my friends. Right, there's tremendous joy in being able
to hold a friend up, oh, you know, and for
a friend to deny me the opportunity to serve because
they're to fill in the blank, to listen, take advice,
you know, admit any kind of weakness. At some point,

(36:23):
we just drifted apat you know, I just stopped calling
and that's okay.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
And you don't feel they needed to be a definitive
ending conversation to.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
In that particular case.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Now, when when do you need one of those?

Speaker 1 (36:37):
When there's a definitive ending. I think just let's make
the comparison to a divorce, right, there has to be
work before the definitive ending, So if you feel like
the relationship is worth protecting and saving and working on.
In that particular case, it seems like neither of us
felt like doing the work. We had a good time
and I don't think of it as an ending. I
think of a graduation, right, Like the relationship was great,

(36:58):
and then we graduated and we both moved on, right,
and that's fine, and graduated, right. I learned what I
could learn, and now it's time to go. But if
the relationship, if it's worth fighting for and you're doing
the work and maybe it's just not working, then I
think then you have a hard conversation and you sit down,
just like a divorce or leaving a job, like we're

(37:21):
trying this and I'm struggling and I don't know. I
don't know if it's worth anymore. Can we end this?

Speaker 2 (37:27):
That's a good decision.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
You know, I think ghosting is horrible.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
I'm not talking about you went out on one date
with somebody and like that's fine, you know, But I'm saying,
you know, you hear about whether it's romantic relationships or
friendships where you've been hanging out a lot for six months,
seven months a year and then for whatever reason, you
decide you don't want to and you just stop. You
ignore the texts, you unfollow on socials, which is an
act of unbelievable passive aggression. And some people it's you

(37:55):
have to remember what you're doing to somebody when you
do that, which is especially if they can't look on
the socials and see that you're fine. There's this horrible
sense that something's happened to you, like if you got
into a car accident or something, the result would be
the same, and so the panic of are you okay
comes first. Then they may go on social and discovery
you're fine. They see you out at you know, out

(38:17):
at the club or whatever it is, and then you
reach out and they don't reach back. Now, so you've
gone through the panic of what's happened. Then you realize
they're fine, You realize you're being ghosted. Then the overwhelming
sense of what did I do? The guilt, the no
you get no closure, You give no closure. You allow

(38:38):
someone to chew in their own fears and insecurity and anxieties,
which is debilitating and cruel because you lack the courage
to say I don't know how to say this. Yeah,
I'm struggling in this friendship. I don't know what to do.
You know again, that's different from friends that just naturally
drift apart. And so I think you're right. I think

(38:58):
one of the things we have to learn to do
is how to have difficult conversations with our friends, even
if it means, like I think, at least give somebody
a breakup. Yeah, you know, a breakup is at least
there's still pain, there's still anxiety, there's still you know, mourning,
but at least give somebody the closure to do with dignity.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Well, I think your points were all taken because I
love the distinct you made because if you were working
on it, if you were both trying to bring some
enthusiasm and energy and trying to figure it out, you're
more likely to actually have a proper breakup.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Have you both come to the realization, I don't know
it is working totally.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
And I like that a lot because it's almost like
sometimes we have the same expectations for a relationship that
we didn't put energy into for ones where we did,
and you can't really compare the two because.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yes, and I'll add one final copage is it's messy.
And it's the reason it's messy. It's because human beings
are messy. We're full of anxieties and ego and pride
and fear, and most of us don't have the skills
of co confrontation and listening. We suck at it. And
even if you have the skills, are you good at

(40:06):
applying them? And even if you have the skills, when
you had a bad night's sleep, or you're stressed or
you're feeling attacked, are you able to call upon those skills?
You and I do this, you know, a lot, and
we fail daily, you know, and it's thrown in our face.
I thought you knew how to like I do. But
I'm struggling right now, clearly because I'm hurt, because my

(40:28):
feelings are hurt, and I'm lashing out and being defensive
interrupted you because I'm hurt, and that's not right. But
it's messy, and so you know, one of the things
that you can easily accuse both of us of is
sort of oversimplifying all of this stuff. And we do
oversimplify it to make the case and hopefully share some
lessons that we've stumbled upon over the course of our careers.

(40:52):
But it's still hard, and it's still messy, and it's
still imperfect, and that's kind of beautiful. I think that
makes people beautiful. I just had this conversation with somebody today,
you know, like compare that to AI right. Let's say
you have a fight with your wife. You want to
get it right. Hey, chat GPT, can you tell me
what I have to say to get this right? And

(41:14):
chat GPT, which has been trained with all the best
therapy everything, this thing's a PhD, will give you the
exact right thing to say. And you go and say
to your wife you memorize it, and you say to
your wife exactly what chatcheeb he told you. And she goes,
thank you, my good, thank you. And then she finds
the script in your drawer and she said, did you

(41:34):
get this some chatchebt. Yeah, did you memorize it? Yet
she's going to be angry because there's nothing heartfelt about it.
It's hollow, it's not and she would rather you bumble
and fumble and do it wrong, but at least be
yourself and be it authentic. Can you imagine giving a
one hundred percent chatgebt written speech at a wedding, best
speech ever, and then somebody says, oh my god, that

(41:55):
speech was amazing. How'd you write it? Like no, chat
gbt wrote it for me, you know, And that's just
the feeling of.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Like, oh right, I disappointment.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
I'd rather you give me a worse speech. But I
know it came from the heart, you know, and again
you know they're silly examples. But the point is is
that imperfect human and those two words are synonymous. Those
two words mean exactly the same thing, to be humans,
to be imperfect. To be imperfect is to be human.
It is the most beautiful thing in the world. Perfection

(42:28):
comes off a factory line. It's the difference between a
pottery barn mug and a beautiful piece of Japanese ceramic.
One is handmade. It is imperfect. It is gorgeous versus
the thing that comes off of machine. It looks the
same as all the other things that come up a machine.
It is perfect. It's fine. I like it, love it. Yeah,

(42:52):
And I think we forget that in this day and
age of incredible technology that can solve all the problems
for us and answer all the questions for us. It's
all there right, Like therapists should be afraid because Chatchybet
can do it. But to be able to sit like this, convene,

(43:14):
feel someone staring at you with love, to feel to
cry with someone and have them cry with you, you and
I have both welled up just because the other person
is welling up with us, and to feel a person
connect with you in your pain, to hug someone and

(43:34):
not want to let go. You know the rule at Disney,
the Disney rule for hugging.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
No.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
I learned this recently. It's the best thing in the world. Disney.
All of the characters are trained that when a little
kid hugs you, you may not let go until the
kid lets go first. Oh, that is not the best.
You hug the kid. Oh, it makes me cry. You
hug the kid as long as the kid wants to
hug you. And now do with a friend, hug your

(44:02):
friend until they let go, you know, apply the Disney rule.
I met somebody recently. She's wonderful human beings. She's got
a wonderful boyfriend. They're great couple, and they were saying,
when we hug, we hug for it. I don't remember
what the number was, thirty seven seconds, you know, sixteen seconds,
whatever the numbers. And I'm like, oh, that's okay. Why

(44:24):
that number they go because that's the amount of time
it takes for oxytocin to release, and so when we hug,
you know, we hug for this period of time to
give each other the oxytocin rush because we love each other.
I'm like, Okay, weird, but okay, I'll go I'll go
with it. You know, I'm sure the science is correct.
Somebody studied it, you know. You know. I saw her
in the hallway and I was like, hey, how are

(44:44):
you And she's like great, and she comes in for
the hug and we're hugging and I sort of stop
and I sort of like pull back a little, and
I'm like, I have to ask you. Are you counting?
She said yes. I said, I appreciate it, but let
me show you something. Yeah, okay, I want to just

(45:05):
show you something. Stop counting. Please, don't don't count. You're human,
I'm human. Our bodies already know how to do this.
Stop counting. Just feel and then you let me know
when the oxytosins ares flong. So let's do this hug again. Okay,
So let's hug and we start hugging, and in a
few seconds, I don't know how many, Maybe it was

(45:27):
slightly more, maybe it was slightly less. I have no idea.
At some point we felt unbelievably connected. I mean we
could both feel it. And I said to her, do
you feel that, she goes. Yeah, I'm like, I'm feeling
it too. I think the oxytosin is flowing. And I'm like,
wasn't that nicer. We're just allowed for it to happen
when it happens, as opposed to applying the science. Ye science,

(45:47):
somebody studied it and said it that doesn't mean you
should count it. It just means it takes a little bit. Yeah,
that's all it means. Yeah, a hug for longer, Just
hug for a little Let's just hug for a lot,
don't worry, right, Yeah, And it's this is our metrics obsessed,
metrics obsessed world. Like everybody's obsessed so much deep sleep
they gotten, how much rem they got and how many
ey its like. But there's also all of the I

(46:10):
find it ironic, right, all of these data obsessed people
data obsessed about you know. And before anybody gives me
shit because I'm wearing an orderring, it haven't I haven't
charged it in two years.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
It's just a good belonging I.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Was given to me. I wear it somewhat sentimentally. And
I did replace it with a ring that looks just
like it. But that ring broke and I'm like, well
it looks the same, so I'm going to go back
to the one with the sentimental value. No I love that, No, no, no,
just but I think it's ironic with people who are
so data obsessed that they want to know, did I
drink a glass of wine? You know, did it affect
my rem that the data also shows that people who

(46:46):
obsess about the data actually suffer more stress than the
people who don't. Absolutely, And yet that's the funniest data
point of all.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
The reason why I love it so much is because
you're also giving people a heightened agency and accountability of
feeling the change. Just feel, because that's what it is. Right.
It's like if I tell you something's a great hike,
or let's take something really everyone can relate to. If
I tell you something's a great restaurant and it's got

(47:15):
two Michelin stars, it's got ten star rating, it's got everything.
You could go there and hate the meal, sure, none
of that means anything in that sense. It's your taste
because you had to feel it, and that was what
made the difference. It wasn't the Michelin stars or the
rating or whatever it was, It was your feeling it
and we've lost that ability in a world where we're

(47:37):
counting on everyone else and everything else to tell us
if we've done it for long enough, short enough, have
we lifted for that long enough, you've lost the ability
to actually feel like I was talking to my doctor today.
I was saying, Hey, I'm not sure about this whole
one hundred and fifty grams of protein intake, Like I'm
just not feeling good, Like you just don't feel good.

(47:58):
That's a lot, that's not even as much you meant
to do, like your body weight in protein. And I've tried,
I've tried everything, but it's like I don't feel good
when I do it. So either, Yes, my digestion may
not be strong enough, it may need to be strengthened,
but at this point of my current strength, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, yeah, right, I mean you're right. It's ironic right
where we trust we trust the watch, we trust the app,
we trust the numbers more than we trust ourselves. We
trust what we're being told, and we're doubting our own feelings.
And so the question is is A, why are we
doing that? And B shouldn't we learn how to trust

(48:38):
our feelings more? Right now? Yes, it feels good when
we eat the chocolate cake, but we all know that
it feels pretty gross if you do it too often. Right,
and so there's also data on this, which is people
who stress about eating dessert, the cortisol released from the
stress of eating the dessert is more harmful to your
body than the dessert, right, and so, like, I think

(49:03):
you're right, which is where why we were disconnecting from
our bodies to the point where we don't even trust
our bodies to know what's right for our bodies. I
mean functional medicine. This is a large part of functional medicine,
which is your body already knows. Your body knows how
to heal itself, so all you have to do is
protect the body, you know, Like I and I love
these things, Like what are you doing, I'm doing a cleanse,

(49:24):
So you're you're drinking lemon juice and cayenne pepper for
a week, you know, and you're doing a cleanse. What
are you doing while I'm cleaning. I'm cleaning my body
of toxins. I'm like, that's what your liver and kidney
do as long as your liver and kidneys are healthy, Like,

(49:44):
you're good, you know, and so your body already knows
how to get bad things out of it, Your body
already knows how to fight disease, your body already knows
how to do these things. The only thing you have
to do is look after your body and trust your gut,
right literally and figuratively, especially with the hugging, especially.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
With even something that I love that example so much
because it's like I love the idea that a kid
knows when to let go, Like that idea of like
only let go when the child lets go.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
It's so beautif kid knows, it's.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Literally romantic, spectacular, and just the kid knows, it's so
beautiful because that's actually what we want. We want someone
to hold us for as long as we need to
be held.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
And I'll take it a step further. Right, So in
terms of the kid knows, right, so good parenting advice
is like, you know, like when it's cold outside and
the parents like, put on your sweater. I don't want
to put on your sweater. I don't want to put
on your sweater. I don't want to let the kid
go outside in the cold, and very quickly the kid
will either be fine or not fine. The kid knows
the kid, be like I am cold, put on a sweater, right,

(50:47):
they won't right? Like Like there are little things that
we know, and that goes right back to friendship. We've
all been in relationships that suck energy from us and
we feel like we have to like keep going because
I don't know, we've been friends for a bunch of years,
so time is the only bond. You don't actually fill

(51:08):
each other up anymore. You know, people grow up. You
were a different person than you were five years ago.
I'm a different person than I was five years ago,
hopefully better. I definitely know there's some skills that I've got.
I'm definitely a better friend. I'm a better leader, I'm
a better boyfriend. Like I worked on those things, you know,
and I'm better at it. You know what it's like.
It's like, you know, for a lot of us, we

(51:29):
left home when we were eighteen, and we kept growing up.
We went to school, we got a job, and we
kept learning and growing and taking ourselves on. But our
parents knew us up until we were eighteen, and then
they missed the new growth. And then you come home
and your parents are treating you like you're eighteen, and
you're like I'm not. We say stupid things like I'm
not a cute anymore, but they only know you as

(51:49):
the eighteen year old. They've missed all the growth. And
that sometimes happens where we're growing at different paces, or
we grow and somebody else chooses not to and that's fine.
But we know people differently.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
You know.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
It's like maybe there was a bully you had in
high school who bullied you. They're not a bully anymore.
I mean they might be, but that's my memory, but
that's your memory. So you come up with you you
see them at a bar, and you come in with
like animosity, you know, versus like how are you and
they're like I am sorry, you know, and I think

(52:26):
that's I just find all this friends. I'll tell you
one really funny.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Hopefully you have friends that you can call on in
really dark times that something's gone wrong, whatever it is,
problems in your marriage, problems is your career, whatever it is,
something went badly. You call for and be like, dude,
can I just talk to you? Like life is not
good right now. I just I just need to talk
to somebody, like you know who those people are? Yes,
you know exactly. The phone numbers you're going to call.

(52:50):
What I've learned is the people when everything goes right
and you want to just brag, like, dude, I just
want an award. I just made a bunch of cash.
I just I'm a frickin hero, I'm the smartest person
in the room. That number of people that you can
call is even smaller, true, And I just love the
fact that there's more vulnerability in wanting to toot your

(53:14):
own horn and ask a friend to hold space with
no judgment, no jealousy, and no envy, and that number
of friends that I can call and be like, I'm
a frickin rock star and I just needed to tell
somebody about how great I am and how proud I am,
and that friend will gush and glow and cheer. And

(53:35):
I remember a friend of mine called me and something
amazing happened in his life, and like he didn't know
who he could call because he didn't want to sound
like he was bragging but to me, but he needed
to get it out. And I just sat on the phone.
I was like a proud parent. I was glowing. And
you realize that chemicalist seratonin that when you see somebody
walk across the stage at graduation and accept their diploma.

(53:57):
Like their bodies are being consumed by serotonin with the
feeling of pride. That's what seratonin gives you, the feeling
of pride as they're graduating. You know that amazing feeling.
But what we don't talk about is the parents and
the friends and the family sitting in the audience also
have serotonin pouring through their bodies and they feel the
same pride for the person on the stage. Oh wow, right,
And so when you have a friend that you can

(54:19):
brag to and they share in your pride, both of
you are coursing. Your veins are coursing with serotonin, and
it is a pro social experience. In other words, it
is making you even closer your ability to share the
vulnerability of success, giving somebody else the opportunity to share
in your pride. You're actually not bragging to them, that's

(54:39):
not what's happening. You're both firing on serotonin. I felt
the same pride, joy and excitement that my friend was feeling.
And when I hung up the phone, I was in
such a great mood because my friend had an amazing success.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful, I mean and that's.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Because you have to do so much in a friendship
of all the good stuff and the bad stuff, and
that I don't want to be here, but I'm gonna
sit here and the bad news and the time and
the effort. You have to do so much work to
nurture a friendship, to earn the mutual joy from either
one's success, the fact that I can share in your

(55:18):
success and you can share in my success, and I
am feeling more confident in a great mood because you
had success that just like a parent earns the feeling
of pride from their child walking across the stage, because
all the sacrifices of raising my kid. Now not everybody
who knows my kid is not pouring with serotonin. It's
the ones who earned it from the years of investing

(55:41):
in the friendship, in the relationship. And that's what you
miss in all these shortcuts. That's what we miss in
all of this AI stuff. You don't get to earn
those feelings, and those feelings are the best feelings in
the world. And all those feelings do is make you healthier.
The more oxytocin and serotonin you have in your body,
you're less likely to die from heart tosease, you're less
likely to get many cancers, you're less likely to get diabetes.

(56:05):
In other words, friendship and the hard work of friendship
and earning that oxytocin and earning that serotonin keeps you healthy.
And then we go back to the chocolate cake and
the exercise of the doctors, and you start to realize
the healthiest thing I can do is not the diet.
The healthiest place I need to apply my willpower is

(56:27):
not on how long I'm working out, but it's how
much time, effort, and energy and presence I give to
my friends.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
But first, here's a quick word from the brands that
support the show. All right, thank you to our sponsors.
Now let's dive back in. Where this is hitting for
me is that the challenge I think people are having
today is they're struggling to clap for their friends when

(56:57):
it's not their turn. People are struggling to feel joy
for someone else's joy when they're not in a joyful state.
So I've had real life scenarios in my life right
now which I'll share that immediately came to my mind
when you were saying this, which I love. There on
this conversation is two examples. One person, and these are

(57:20):
people who are really close. This is not like some
fake friendship, really close. One of them's going through a miscarriage,
the other one is expecting a baby, and the person
of the miscarriage is feeling bad because they're a miscarriage.
They're feeling bad because they can't celebrate their friend's wine,
and they're now feeling bad that they don't even want

(57:41):
to be around their friend because their friends are actually expecting
And now that friend's feeling guilt because they're having a baby,
and they're like, well, how do we share this with
that person who's just lost a baby? And it's real, right,
Like it's really real. And this applies to people getting
married before you The kids one is probably the most
one of the most dream forms of it. But if

(58:01):
people getting married, people getting engaged.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Before your career doing great, somebody else's career hitting the skills.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
There's so many versions of all of it, but the
most extreme one being or that I've heard so far
as this, I've just lost a child and you're having
a child, and we're best friends and we were going
to be having children at the same time, and we
were going to share that together.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
And we were going to.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Raise our kids together and now I don't even you know, so,
how what do we do when we can't share our
win with our deepest friend because they're losing and they're
scared to share space with us because they're threatened by
your win.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
In that context, communication, right, and this is the thing.
We avoid the communication because it's uncomfortable. I don't know
what to say. I don't know what to say. You know,
one person's the happiest they've ever been. The other person's
the saddest they've ever been, and neither knows what to say,
and both are consumed with guilt. Both are consumed maybe
there's a little bit of anger. I mean, there's all

(58:58):
kinds of feelings, and feelings are messy and they slow,
and you know, and the other one's success or achievement
or in this case, pregnancy just reminds me of what
I'm going through. It makes it just makes it feel worse.
I don't want to be reminded right now. And it's
kind of like when something bad happens in someone's life,
you know, sometimes we don't do anything because we don't

(59:19):
know what to say, and we don't want to say
the wrong thing, and so sometimes that's the best thing
to say. Hey, I don't know what to say. I
don't want to say the wrong thing, but I want
you to know I love you. I can't imagine what
you're going through and it must be the worst thing
in the world. I'm here when you need me. Take
the space you need.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Better to say.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Just say something, say something incomplete. And when you say,
don't have to worry about getting it right, just say
the thing you're feeling. And the feeling is I don't
know what to say. Yeah, you know, I had a
friend recently who lost somebody close to them, and you know,
I got the text that says it happened, and I
don't know what to say, and I write back, dude,

(01:00:01):
that sucks. I'm sorry, that really sucks. That's all I had.
I don't know what to say, and there's no rules,
there's no right thing to say, and we don't know
what state somebody else is in. And even the friend
who is who had the miscarriage saying I love you,
please understand, I'm just struggling. I love you. I just

(01:00:23):
need a little bit of space. I will promise I
will reach out soon. I love you, and it just
opens up a space to say I love you too.
I understand, you know, it's just a human moment. And
I think what we have to do is like we
try and come up with the right answers. What's the
right thing to say? When this there's no right thing
to say? And some people will handle it differently than others,

(01:00:44):
and some people will go into deep sadness, and some
people go into anger, and some people will be avoidant,
and some people will bury themselves and pretend, I mean
like there's no right And so what I've learned is
instead of trying to guess, is a just say what
I am feeling, which is I don't know what to say, Mike.
Let me express my confusion, let me put out something

(01:01:04):
and be there like when you're ready, please I'm here,
which is kind of like saying I love you. And
sometimes to ask. So I have a friend who called
me and said I'm struggling. I said, so, do I
go into solution mode because I know what to do,

(01:01:26):
I know exactly what's going on, or do I go
into the no, I got to hold space. This is
what friends do. They hold space for friends in need.
And so I just said, what do you need. Do
you need me to hold space or do you mean
to offer you some ideas? And then they said I
think right now, I just need you to hold space.
I'm like, okay, I will climb into the mud with
you and I'll sit there for you with you, and

(01:01:46):
when you're ready, you tell me. I think I'm ready
to get out now and be like, oh hey, I
got some ideas and a you can ask. You can
ask for guidance if you don't know, as opposed to run,
I guess and be if somebody gets it wrong, you
can tell them. Yeah. The reverse happened to me. I
was in a bad, bad place and I called somebody
where I just needed them to listen. And I called
her up and I was like, I just I'm having
a really hard week and can I just I need

(01:02:08):
And then this happened, and then this happened and I'm
feeling this and this happened and she went into fix
it mode and it made me feel worse because I
just need to feel heard in that moment and it
was well intentioned, but I was getting angry. I could
feel myself getting angry. I feel out myself getting frustrated,
and I simply said, can I just interrupt you. I
know it's well intentioned. What I need right now, I

(01:02:30):
just need you to just listen. I'm not angry, please
and thank you so much. What I need right now
is please just listen. That's all I need. And she
was like, oh, I'm so sorry, and you can reset.
I'm so sorry, Please go ahead, thank you. Very few
of us are experts, and even the experts bungle it
all the time. And I think the just trying to

(01:02:51):
say how you actually feel, telling people what you need
in the moment you need it, and asking for what
you need in the moment you need it right, that
combination much can bumble through it all. It won't always
be fun, but it's a good start. Yeah, And you
don't need any PhD skills.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
The most important thing about that is saying something is
better than saying nothing. And they're saying something, part speak
your intention, like that's that's what I feel like. It's
like when I'm sharing my confusion and I'm sharing my
feelings and I'm scared to share them because they're messy.
Going back to your earlier point, being human is messy,
and you're right, sometimes I get a message like that too.

(01:03:28):
And I'm like, I don't really know what to say,
and not saying anything is way worse than saying, hey,
I'm really sorry. I'm here. If you need me, let
me know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
I don't know what to say, and I don't know
what you need exactly, and tell me if you feel
up to it, please tell me exactly. Right, but I'm here.
Just know one thing, one thing, one hundred percent sure
is I'm here exactly, you know. Yeah, And that's sometimes
all people needed to feel not alone, most mostly mostly Yeah.
And I think we're also afraid of triggering somebody or
saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. And
it's our own fears, that's our own insecurities. And it

(01:04:03):
goes back to the ghosting. It's my fear of discomfort
that's making it worse for somebody else. Yeah, you know.
And it goes back to what the definition of a
leader is, right. A leader is the person who accept
the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise. It's
about caring for people, right, And it's a very leadery
thing to do to just be the person who says,
I don't know, but here it is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
I remember this a while ago. There's someone that I
knew that told me one of their friends came up
to them and said they said exactly how they feel,
but it was different. It said I'm envious of you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
I kind of respect that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
Yeah, it was, but it was hard for that person
to hear it. Yeah, because they felt a creative a distance,
even though to me, that person is being courageous.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
There's a way to do it though. Yeah, I wouldn't
recommend going up to somebody to be like, dude, I'm
really envious of you because you don't know the context.
You know't where it's coming from. I think context is important,
A good setup is important, you know, like, don't know
what to say. You know, I'm afraid of saying this
wrong right, and I think to say, I need to

(01:05:06):
share something with you that's really uncomfortable for me to share,
and I know it's revealing of my own issues. It
has nothing to do with you, and I know it's
something I'm dealing with, but I'm really envious of you,
And that Letted least signals like it's not you, it's me.
Like I'm dealing with my own insecurities and my own

(01:05:27):
feelings of inadequacy and my own feelings and by the way,
that same friend, you know, his career, just like when
I was still like struggling and you know, trying to
make a go of it, and I had no money,
and he was starting his career starts to take off,
and like we would go for dinner, and like he'd
order expensive bottles of wine and I'm sitting there just

(01:05:48):
stressed out because I know we're going to split the
check and I am like everything he's ordering and I'm
just like sitting there going and it's just making me
feel worse. His success is actually making me feel bad
and affecting a boat and feeling inadequate and feeling lesser than.
But this is why he's a great friend. He goes, hey, listen,

(01:06:09):
let's make a deal. I'll pay for the wine and
let's just split the meal. I'm like, I'm good, thank you.
I don't have to say a word. He knows where
he is and he knows where I am.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
But that requires humility.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
And it still sucked. And I still hated it, and
I still had jealousy and I still had anger. I
still had all the feelings. As his career is flying,
all it's his success is just reminding me what I
haven't achieved or what I'm not achieving, or you know,
am I ever going to achieve anything? You know, I
wish I had. And he's buying big houses and things like,

(01:06:42):
you know, and not that I desire big houses, but
I'm watching it happen. And I knew it was my issue,
and I knew there's a there's a danger of me
lashing out or making accusations. You're always throwing your money
around in front of me. I knew all of that existed.
Thank goodness, I had the self awareness to be like,

(01:07:03):
this is me, this is my issue, These are my insecurity,
these are my fears, this is my ego. And I
can't remember what I did. I sat in a discomfort
for a long time, and I think at some point
I just talked to him. Yeah, and you know, he's
he's one of my best friends in the world. And
now I can look at him be like, dude, I'm

(01:07:23):
so proud of you, like you freaking nailed it. And
I've known him since we were eighteen years old, you know,
so it's like we've known each other since we were
both idiots. You know, we've known each other since we
were eighteen. We lived across the hall from each other
freshman year of college, and we've always been friends. We've
never not been friends.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
So you can't be friends with people you're envyousself and
people that are envious with view.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
I've never actually talked to him about it. It's really funny.
I was actually just talking to him on the way
up driving up to here, which is really funny. I've
never talked to him about it. I should. I don't
know what his experience in that moment was being on
the other side, but I treated it like a fight.
I treated it like we have to get through this,
even though he was pretty much uninvolved in the whole
thing was going on in my own head. He was

(01:08:03):
just going through life. He probably was completely in fact,
knowing what I know about him, he was completely I
guarantee you mostly unaware, right I remember, I just I
love him, I care about him. Nothing happened. I didn't
do anything to me, just doing well. I treated it
like like this is a tension and I have to

(01:08:23):
get through this because it goes right back to it
before the stress is worth it. Yeah, this friendship is
worth going this, This stress is worth getting through for
this friendship. It's not. You can't say that about all friendships,
but in this case, it was it was worth it. It
was worth it to sit in mud by myself and
maybe tell somebody else what I was going through and
have them go, oh, that sucks, you know. So I

(01:08:46):
don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure that's how
I dealt with it. I probably told somebody else.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I had
a friend say to me the other day. They said, Jay,
you know the thing I love about you is that
you've stayed the same despite your success. You taller a friend. Yeah,
And it was just like and I said, you know,
the reason why I've been able to be the same
with you is because you've stayed the same with me.
And it was this really interesting not that we haven't

(01:09:13):
changed or grown. Of course, I've learned new skills, so
they but that they didn't think I was changing negatively
and that allowed me to continue to be who I
wanted to be with them.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
You only get half the credit on that, right. The
other half of the credit is that I guarantee you
that other people in your life, other friends, will give
me a different answer that they will say now that
Jay's all successful and you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
No, but that's the point of my life.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
I'm saying, like he's like aloof Now that's the point.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Yeah. Yeah, So my point is that's exactly what I'm saying.
That maybe I didn't explain it. Well, he's saying that
I'm giving him the credit back. Oh yeah, yeah, because
I'm saying, you didn't change what you've viewed of.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
In me, right, So I never he's done the work.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Correct, Yeah, because he's allowed me to continue to be
me without judging me comparing this and you're right, You're right.
It is only half the credit.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
For sure, you know, and you you may have changed totally,
and you may be more aloof you know, and you
may be more cynical, and you may be more guarded.
All of that and some people who may experience you
is different. Right, all those things can be true. But
I love the fact. Yeah, I think he gets the

(01:10:28):
credit for having the strength of ego to recognize that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Yeah, that's my point. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Gets the credit came across from but he gets he
gets all the credit. He gets. That's really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Yeah, it was just a really interest. It never clicked
to me because I was receiving it, and I was like, yeah,
but can't you know maybe I have exactly what you're saying.
Like I was like, maybe I have changed. Not everyone
would agree with that, but it was the idea that
was him that that was that way we kind of
went to the end of a relationship like breakups. But
I was thinking about another thing that I feel a
lot of people are struggling with friendships that I at

(01:10:59):
least here right now, are people who are wanting to
kind of like where you were actually, but you're wanting
to grow, You're wanting to pivot into a new business,
You're wanting to start something. And what I've noticed is
we're not scared of what people think on the internet.
We're scared of what people around us think when you're
starting something, Like when you're trying to begin something, you're

(01:11:21):
not really scared about what some anonymous person says on
the internet. That's not even on your mind. You're scared
about what your friend from college is going to say
about that video you made, or you're scared of what
your friend from high school is going to say about
the business you're about to start. You're scared of the
LinkedIn update that goes out to your former colleagues, right, Like,

(01:11:41):
that's the thing you're worried about. What do we do
when we feel that people around us don't believe in us?
Are the most cynical, the most skeptical, are the most
negative about our ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
That's interesting even a person, for anybody who wants to
accomplish anything of value in the world. And when I
dunk of value, I think of impact. Right, That's how
I define it. Right, if you want to operate at
a skille that's bigger than yourself, and if you want
to and when I say bigger stuff, it could be
three people, right, meaning I want to have an impact

(01:12:14):
in three people's lives around me. I want to be
the best parent in the world. Right. My point is
more than you. Right. So I think we confuse when
we think bigger than ourselves. We don't necessarily mean national stage.
Bigger than yourself can just means more than one. Right.
Anybody who wants to have an impact in the lives
of others has to get used to the idea that

(01:12:35):
not everybody's going to like you, Right. You just have
to get used to that idea. And for me, I
have rules, which is if you don't like me because
you disagree with me. I'm cool with that. Right. If
you don't like me because somehow I make you uncomfortable,
I'm okay with that too. But if somebody I respect

(01:12:56):
doesn't like me, now I've got a problem, right, because
I'm not so blind and pigheaded to be like, screw
the world, it's me. You know. If you don't like it,
you can you know, you can eat it. Right. My
eyes are open. And if there's a friend I care about,
who's m simon? Okay, I got to take that seriously
because now I'm getting too big for my breeches, or

(01:13:18):
now I'm not listening, or now I'm ignoring my blind spots,
And now I got a problem, right. But if somebody
just disagrees with me, I mean, what am I supposed
to do? I don't get everything right. Sometimes things come
out wrong. Give me some grace, you know. But if
you just disagree with me, like what am I like?
I don't know what. I actually don't know what to do.

(01:13:39):
It's like the gold dress, blue dress? Remember that? Yeah,
it's like the dress is blue, You're an idiot, it's gold.
I'm like, what am I supposed to do. I see
it as blue. I don't know what to do. That's
what it is, right, It's hard. Everybody wants people to like.
You know, I have a lot of respect for people
who like literally don't care. Yeah, I don't have that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
Well, it goes back to what you were saying earlier
that we're looking for people to affirm, confirm, and join.
So it's like when you have that idea and everyone
around you, who you thought supported the same football club
and had the same values doesn't agree with you, it
kind of feels like there's something wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
You're kind of raising something that's quite least, it's quite insidious.
We can't help but think about like likes and views
on a post that you know, we get our sense
of self from how many likes we get, And this
video got more likes. I'm bohite, period, I'm awesome, this
video gout no likes, Oh my god, I'm worthless? Yeah
like or how many views it gets. And that's sort

(01:14:40):
of the macro social media version of what you're talking about,
which is if people like me, I must be a
good person. That people don't like me or aren't giving
me a lot of views, I might I must not
be a good person, and how to disconnect a like
or a view or a comment from what I'm trying
to do here and what I'm putting out in the world.

(01:15:03):
And the problem is it's the incentive structure, right, because
if you're making money from views, if your sense of
value in the world comes from those numbers, that's the
insidious version of what you're saying. And how do you
get comfortable like some will do well? Like I can
tell you I've won the Internet Lottery more than once.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Yeah you have.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
I have won the Internet Lottery more than once. And
I've had multiple things that I've put out there go
very viral. None of them did I predict. The videos
that I thought would do well fine, And the videos
that I had no clue went you know, and they
went ballistic and it wasn't because the production quality, and
it wasn't I didn't just didn't know something connected, you know.

(01:15:46):
That's why I call it virals. I was at a
dinner once and a guy I'd like, what do you do?
He's like, I made viral videos. I'm like, no, you don't.
You make videos and you hope they go viral. And
that's why this stuff is hard. Now you can do
tricks and games. You and I both know people who
use all the tricks and games to drive the views.
And you know, and there are tricks and games on Amazon,
there are tricks and games on YouTube, there are tricks
and games on Instagram, right, TikTok, they all have tricks

(01:16:08):
and games. But when something actually goes for legitimate reasons,
it's because you connected with somebody you didn't even really
knows realize why or how. And to make those the
standards is ridiculous. It's stupid. Like people said to me, Simon,
you know, after I wrote, start with why, how are
you going to write a second book as popul as
the first? The answer was easy, I'm not. I'm not.

(01:16:29):
Didn't predict that, didn't orchestrate her. That's like asking me,
how are you going to repeat that lottery win? Well,
I've studied the numbers I picked the first time, and
I've got a formula I having to pick. No, I
won the freakin lottery? What do you want from me?

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
Like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
I'm just going to do the best job I can
the second time, and it won't do as well. And
that's okay, you know, And I think to disconnect our
value from the metric. Is a is really the lesson here?

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Yeah, and on on that small scale of.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
The I'm not less valuable because my second book didn't
sell as well as my first.

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
You know, yeah, me too, But yeah, I know that
that point that you're making to me, that micro version
is that I don't feel value. Like, for example, when
I put on my first video the people closest to
me or maybe second closest to me, where like, you
talk too fast, the editing's bad, the music's soft, and

(01:17:21):
the funny thing is they were right like that all
of that was true, but it resonated with someone right.
It was like a weird It was like this weird
thing where and I've seen that with people when they're
trying something new. It's like the people around them will
be the most cynical, the most skeptical, And if you
use that as feedback it could get better, or if
you use it as like, hey, you're not really an

(01:17:41):
explant that you don't know much, I'm just going to
get on with it, right. That's what I'm trying to
get at is like how does how does someone deal
with the discomfort of just your best friend thinks your
business idea sucks, or like your your best friend thinks
the person you're dating is not right for you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
But you're conflating a lot of stuff there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
I like the best and doesn't like the best in
your date.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
That's a hard one. Yeah, very often they don't tell
you until you after you've broken up.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
Why do our friends feel like they have to wait
till we break up?

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
Because it's really uncomfortable to say I don't like your partner.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
Could we do something better about that too?

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Can I have a really uncomfortable conversation with you? You know?

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
Could we do something better to help our friends have
uncomfortable comed.

Speaker 1 (01:18:18):
So at the end of the day, sometimes not all
our partnerships are unerstood by our friends too. I've definitely
been in partnerships that people are just like really, I'm like, no, no, no,
you don't understand the value that this person gives to me.
And this person is the exact right person I need
to date for the place I'm in right now, you know.
I mean I had a girlfriend many years ago who
nobody could like they looked at us walking dow the

(01:18:38):
street and people just like like I me and my
friends like they're like, what like they couldn't understand this relationship.
And what they didn't understand is who I was and
what I need In that time, she was magical and
we're still friends, but nobody, nobody got it, and she
was socially awkward and like so like if you've got
friends with big personalities and you know, we go and

(01:19:00):
she's just quiet the whole night, Like my friends didn't
get it. That's the other thing I've learned, which is
to do people not like the girl I'm dating or
do they just want somebody who's the life of the party.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
You know, that's a great point.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
Yeah, And if they're looking for somebod who's a life
of the party, that's not who I'm dating. She's the rock,
she's not the fireworks. She's stable, and that's what I need. No.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
I like that. I like that because I think you're right.
I mean introverts in general, in friendships in great settings
like my family.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
My parents have never liked quote unquote any introvert I've
ever dated. They love the extroverts because the extroverts are
fun and the introverts are awkward. That's pretty much it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from
our sponsors. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now
back to the discussion. I think everyone who's listening right
now and watching me include it is thinking of someone
in my life right now. Yeah, that I don't enjoy
being around because they're introverted. Yeah, And even though I
can be very introverted in certain group settings, Yeah, and

(01:20:04):
certain group friends saying I'm the biggest introviet there is. Yeah,
and then in sand and I'm the awkward ones sometimes
where people like I don't get it same you're dating him.
He's so vivacious on stage and on camera, and at
dinner he was quiet and grumpy. How should introverts think
about friendships differently to extroverts.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
I don't think they should think about friendships differently. I
think they're all the same. The rules are the same,
you know. I think we confuse introversion extraversion in social awkwardness.
There are socially awkward introverts. There are socially awkward extroverts.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
Definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
There are socially functional introverts, and there are socially functional extroverts.
I am a socially functional introvert, right, I'm okay, you
know I'm not that awkward, though I can be. My
ex would make fun of me. We'd go to a
party and like all these little groups of conversations, you know,
people standing around in threes and fours with their drinks
talking one over there, one over there, and I never
knew how to insert myself into one of them. And

(01:20:59):
I know, oh the people like, but I never know
how to insert myself. And so I just stand by
myself with my drink in the middle of the room.
And she would always make fun of me that I
would just stand there by myself, just totally fine, just
taking the room in, you know, and I just feel
sorry sorry for everybody else is looking at me going out.
I don't even know. People don't know how to talk
to me. How do you walk up to it? A
person just standing in the middle of the room by themselves,

(01:21:20):
Like I think friendships are the same, Like, of course
it's partially. It's energy, is what we get from people.
And I'm going to go right back to what we
said before. Stop thinking about the introversion of the extraversion
of life of the party, death of the party. Does
this person give you something? Are they additive to your day,
to your night, to your life? Not every friendship has
to be a deep, meaningful relationship, but every friendship should

(01:21:42):
be additive, and it should they should be worth the
time and the energy that we invest. Yeah, right, And
one thing I look to is you don't need to
keep score, but you do want there to be some
reciprocal investment. I've definitely had friendships where I'm the one
making the plan, I'm the one doing the calling, I'm
the one doing the texting. They always respond, But if
I didn't call her text I'm not sure I'd ever

(01:22:02):
hear from them again for the rest, you know. And
in those scenarios, I'm asking myself, like, we have fun,
I'm investing. What if we didn't? What if I didn't invest?
I'm just curious, And so I've done little experiments where
I just like, don't and some of those friendships drift apart.
They just drift apart, and you're like, huh, okay, got it,

(01:22:24):
not offended. And then other times the person will be like,
I have not talked to you for so long. You
are always so good at staying in touch with me.
I'm a bad friend. I'm going to do better. I
don't like not talking to you, And they pick up
their game, and again it goes right back to where
we started. If you peel the onion back one layer.
A lot most of us are bad friends, and most
of us are lazy, you know, and most of us

(01:22:46):
would prioritize work before a friend and take our friends
for granted. In this case, when one person's putting in
all the energy, it's super easy to be the lazy friend.
On the other end, I've definitely been the lazy friend
on the other end, you know, I have one friend
rockstar rock star. It's making plans, getting in touch and so,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
But that's that thing, right It's like when we're looking
at the question of as someone additive to my life,
if they don't ask the other side of.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
Also, it's also what you're looking for, right, Like if
you as long as it's communicated. I think it's like,
thank you so much for always being so good at
being the one who initiates every time we get together,
because I can tell you every time we get together,
I love seeing you. Thank you for leading the way.
It's I think it's just acknowledgment. Again. This is why

(01:23:36):
these things, like human beings are messy. There's only a
few things that are quote unquote right or wrong. But
a lot of this is figuring out what each person wants,
and sometimes by the way, they want things different things
at different times. And that's the if you're really busy,
if you're really stressed, or if you're really distracted, or
and like, well, we've all been the person or been
the friend of the person who like has a new

(01:23:58):
romantic relationship and all of a sudden you don't anymore.
Ye right, We've all been that person, and we've all
been on the receiving end of that person, right, And
then they break up, and then they start calling and
be like, oh, well now that you're now that I'm
you're not busy, and now you're a friend again, right right, yeah,
And so like what do.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
You do in that situation? Do you allow it? Do
you pretend to be disrespected? Are you offended? I feel
like we have such we've seem to have such big reactions,
we will be such common occurrences.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
I think communication is like lubrication. The more communication there is,
the easier the machine goes. And without communication you get
is friction. Right, most fights amongst friends. I just had
a fight with a friend just this week. It was
based purely on first miscommunication and then total lack of
follow up, and then the tension just grew and grew

(01:24:49):
and grew until one of us was like, this is ridiculous.
It's usually miscommunication and then lack of communication, and so
if you can communicate even badly, that will lose bcate
the relationship. And so what I find is that good
relationships talk about the relationship. Yeah, Like, you see good
marriages and they like, I love how our marriage works

(01:25:10):
so well. And you see good friendships. You know, you're like, ugh,
here's what I love about our friendship. I love that
I can tell you everything. I have one friend that
almost every time we talk, almost every time, I will
say the same thing. Do you know One of the
reasons I love our friendship is because debt dot dot
dot dot, and I say it, and I even say
I know, I say this every time I talk to you,

(01:25:32):
but it's just how I feel every time I do.
I love that we're friends because I can dot dot
dot or you make me feel dot dot dot every time,
and we talk about the friendship, and I think that's healthy.
And so it's okay to talk about the friendship. It's
okay to say here's what I love, here's what I
you know, and and it's okay if we need different
things in different moments. And as I said before, if

(01:25:53):
we do the work, it's not the chat Chebt answer.
It's if you do the work, you get to earn
the serotonin, you get to earn the oxytocin, you get
to earn the feeling of the hug because it is
natural and not because you counted for it. The serotonin's
because it's earned and you have genuine joy. And if
you cannot because you've got your own stuff going on,
if you cannot be that person for the time that

(01:26:15):
you know they need you, then simply say so, I
got shit going on in my life. I can't be
the person you need me to be right now. I
love you, I love you, I love you. I just
need to deal with my own shit, because otherwise people
will make up stories. Ninety nine times out of one
hundred tho stories are wrong, and then we will treat
people or act based on our version of events or

(01:26:38):
our story. And that's all listening is. Listening is just
hearing what the other person's story is, just so I
have the context for why you've been acting the way
you've been acting. The story doesn't have to be right.
It's just their story, just like my story doesn't have
to be right. It's right to me, but it's just
my experience of something like my friends like you did this,
and then you did this, and then you did this,
and I was like wow, and I didn't say well,

(01:27:00):
I didn't intend to. I said wow, I'm sorry, like
I'm so sorry. Yes I did do that, And now
I want to tell you my experience of what happened
to the same event. You did this, and you did this,
and you did this, and she said no, I didn't,
and I went, I'm not telling you, I'm right. I

(01:27:21):
just want you to hear how I experienced what went down,
so you have context for why I acted the way
I acted, because now I have context for the way
you acted the way you acted. Neither of us is
right and both of us are right. So this is
about understanding, not about competing. And the funny thing about

(01:27:41):
communication is when somebody gets it wrong or when somebody
gets it right, you'd be like, thank you for saying that.
That's the best thing I needed to hear. And when
they get it wrong, you'd be like, don't invalidate my story.
Please just listen to my story. Sorry, sorry, sorry, you're right,
you're right, you're right. Like this is the great thing
about human beings is we can actually like give people
guidance about what they're getting right and wrong in the
moment and it doesn't destroy the moment, and you can

(01:28:02):
be like, you're right, I'm sorry, I'd like to reset.
Please continue. We can do that and it works. I
have one friend. I mean, it's how so funny that
how much guidance were able to give people as opposted
letting them guess. I have one friend I was upset
about something another who knows what I was hurt. I
was like, can I just tell you? And I did
all the things I want to tell you. I'm hurt,

(01:28:23):
and this is the story I'm telling myself may not
be true. I just want you to know what happened
when you said this. It made me feel this way,
and she goes, well, that's not what I intended. I'm like,
I didn't say you intended it. I just want you
to know how I feel, and she goes, well, that's
those are your feelings. I'm not responsible for the way
you feel. I'm like, well, actually you are. You know,
when people say like, I'm not responsible for your feelings,

(01:28:43):
your feelings, your feelings, I'm like, that's not true. If
you say something mean and it hurts my feelings, yes
they're my feelings and I'm responsible for my feelings. But
you said that that made me feel bad. So yes,
you are involved in this chain of events. I totally
reject this idea as like I'm not responsible for your feelings,
your feels or your flings, Like, no, you called me,
you called me ugly, and that hurt my feelings because

(01:29:04):
it tapped into my insecurities.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
Yeah, when it's not black and white, yeah, you know,
but it's you are.

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
You're in the chain of events. I'm not saying you
did on a purpose anyway. So I'm going on and
on and she's just if they deny push, that's your problem.
Those are your feelings. I'm not responsible your feelings. I'm
living my life. You're living a life. This is going
on and on it and I'm getting more frustrated. I'm
getting more upset. I'm not feeling heard, And I just said,
can I just give you some advice about how this
is going to just because you're getting frustrated with me.

(01:29:30):
I'm getting freshured with you. This is super easy, right,
Just say sorry. That's all I need. Just just say sorry.
You said those words. Just say sorry. She goes I'm sorry.
I'm like, thank you, and then we were fine.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
Yeah. You can guide it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:46):
You can guide it. And so it's like, well, I'm
not saying sorry, I'm like, I'm literally telling you all.
And by the way, one of the best lessons in
the world. Saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong correct
Saying you're sorry means you take accountability for the things
you said or the actual that were performed. And where
people like, well I don't have to say sorry if
I didn't attend them. Well, if you're walking through the
airport with your wheelibag and you run over someone's foot

(01:30:08):
by accident, you turn around and they turn around and
you're like, I'm so sorry, right, didn't do it on purpose,
but it is your wheelibag. Now if they turn around
and look at you, waiting for the the sorry, and
you're like and you look at me like, what, I
didn't do it on purpose, and a fight will ensue.
You will get yelled at.

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
That's a great example, right, Yeah, you didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:30:28):
Do it on purpose. It's still your wheelie bag, right,
you didn't do it on purpose. There's still your words,
there's still your actions. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but
they are yours. And all you have to do is
apologize because it did come from you. And like I said,
I reject this whole sort of like, I'm not responsible
your for your feelings. Your feelings are yours. I don't

(01:30:50):
have to apologize. I'm like, dude, you're mean, you were mean,
you are mean, Like, what are you going to tell you?

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
Yeah? Oh my gosh, it's been such a joy to
talk to you. I always feel you're so refreshingly human
in all your insights. They're going back to your point
on imperfect as imperfect as human and human is imperfect.
It's so refreshingly human to just talk to you about

(01:31:17):
these ideas when sometimes we can end up living in
a didactic three ways in two ways and say this
and it's true, it's all of that's helpful and it's
completely unhelpful because the reality.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):
It's useful and useless at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
Exactly, Yeah, because the reality is this. I just thank
you for showing up in that way. Because I love it.
I really enjoy it because what I freeze you, it's freeing.
It's liberating to know that, you know, if you can
be messy, we all can.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
I think it's important for people to present themselves as
they are, which is messy, because to present yourself as perfect, yeah,
sets up an unfair standard for other people to live by. Absolutely,
and usually people present themselves as perfect, usually out of
absolute fear that they don't want people to know that
they're actually imperfect. And I'll say what I said before.
To be beautiful is to be human. To be messy

(01:32:07):
is to be beautiful. We don't fall in love with
the perfection. We fall in love with the imperfection. We
fall in love when somebody lets us be imperfect, allows
us to be imperfect, and allows us to love them
for being imperfect. We showed up on the first date
because of all the perfection and imperfection is earned, like

(01:32:28):
the space to be imperfect is earned. You do not
reveal all your imperfections on date one too soon, too much.
That's overwhelming. And when you do the work and you
take the small risks that then become big risks. I
want to be my messy self. With somebody who loves
me for my messy self. And I want somebody to
feel that I love them no matter how messy they are.

(01:32:49):
And that is a high standard and a hard thing
to find. And if you have a friend like that,
you work damn hard to protect that friendship.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
And we end every episode of On Purpose with a
final five. These have to be answered in one word
to one sentence maximum. Okay, So Simon Sinek, these are
your final five. Question number one, what is the best
advice you've ever heard or received? Let's do it to
do with friendship.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
So the best advice I ever got professionally is three
quarters of an answer is better than an answer and
a half. And I think it actually, I actually think
it applies to friendship too. Sometimes just shut up. You know.
One of the best advice I got personally is you
don't have to know everything and you don't have to
always be right, and that's of relief.

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):
Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever
heard or received?

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
Trust me, I've been doing this longer than you.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):
Aha, that's a good I like tho.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
I try and ignore people to tell you that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
Question number three, define a good friend.

Speaker 1 (01:33:49):
I believe that friendship is two or more people who
agree to grow together, and so a good friend is
somebody who we have decided that we're going to grow together.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Question number four, how do you define a bad friend?

Speaker 1 (01:34:01):
A friend who's trying to extract rather than grow.

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
Fifth and final question we asked this every guest who's
ever been on the show. If you could create one
law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
would it be.

Speaker 1 (01:34:13):
That I would outlaw the harp? Why? It's silly instrument.
It's good for dream sequences. That's about it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
No way, you're joking right now. Really, you genuinely don't
like hearts?

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
No, I don't like harps. Wow, you can listen to
a harp symphony.

Speaker 2 (01:34:26):
No, I have not, But I like harps.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
I didn't know it's good for dreams.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
They're in Eavan though.

Speaker 1 (01:34:30):
Exactly it's good for one thing, dream sequences. Yeah, I
would outlaw harps.

Speaker 2 (01:34:35):
I love it, Simon and Okra harps Okra, Wow, that's it.
It's attacking my Indian heritage. I love it. Simon, You've
been a joy as ever, and I hope this is
the first of many appearances on purpose. I really appreciate
your views as always, and I look forward to these
conversations and lots more of them.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
So thank you, thanks for having.

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If
you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant
on why discomfort is the key to growth and the
strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you
want to be more and achieve more this year, go
check it out right now.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months,
and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.
There's no sense of meaning and purpose. You sort of
expected it, and you would have been disappointed if it
didn't happen.

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