April 1, 2025 • 44 mins
We move for all sorts of reasons – new job, new grandkid – but moving because it’s just too darn hot? That’s a new one. But it’s going to pick up in the next few decades as more people around the world are forced to migrate because of climate change.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and
there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there,
and this is stuff you should know. The is it
getting hot in here? Is it just me?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Edition? Uh? Yeah, that's right. Well, you know what we
can do. We can just migrate to another part of
the iHeart offices here.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Nice, a nice school studio.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, they really do keep them cool, frankly cold.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yeah. And that's the last fun we're going to have
on this episode because this is not so fun.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That is not true. There's plenty of places for jokes. Okay,
all right, good do you remember we did one on
comas and we had jokes, So come on, right, we
can do this.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So we're talking climate migration and it's a really interesting topic.
This was your idea, actually, and I tip my hat
to you than you and uh, I'm just joking. I'm
not I'm not wearing a hat.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
See another joke.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So the thing that surprised me, So we're climate migration,
we should just tell people off the bat is where
people have to move somewhere else because extreme weather, droughts,
basically anything extreme temperatures, anything that has to do with
climate change based ruining where they live. That's climate migration
(01:31):
human wise.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yes, like there's an animal climate migration we're not even
going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
No, we did a whole episode on plant migration that
was due to climate too, So this is yes, that
was a good catch. This is human specific. And one
of the things that struck me about this is there's
a there's not a lot of like solid agreement on
exactly how bad things are going to be and exactly
(01:56):
how far people are going to have to move, and
even a moong the people who do agree, the experts
who do generally agree on some stuff, there's still like,
I don't know that this is going to be as
bad as it's being portrayed, like say in the media.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, for sure. And you know, we'll get to some
studies and stats and things. But the stats you got
to keep in mindor kind of a guess because as
Libya points out, or maybe we'll just talk about that
when we get to the stats part.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Okay, but I just wanted to put I wanted to
put a lid on the hysteria because, like you said,
we just don't know yet, and it might not be
as bad as we think. There might be some pluses.
There are definitely going to be some minuses, but it's
something that we're talking about now, and it's decades enough
into the future that we have time to prepare for it.
It's kind of like we went from Okay, let's stop
(02:45):
emitting greenhouse gases to Okay, it's too late for that.
Now we have to figure out how to deal with
the repercussions of that. That's where we're at. But we
have a little bit of time, and if we start
thinking about and talking about how to do this smartly
and responsibly without again becoming hysterical and overplanning and overdoing it,
we could do this right and make it as comfortable
(03:07):
as possible.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, we being specifically the United States because there are
other parts of the world that are already sort of
proactive rather than kind of, like you said, being reactive
and waiting when potential refugees are just sort of at
the border saying like we have no place to go
because our have our place almost said habitat. I guess
(03:28):
humans have a habitat, right.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, sure, is that true? Yeah, every animal has a habitat.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Okay, I didn't know if I was being callous by
considering us all just animals.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Were you being a speciest?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Maybe so? But if speaking of the US, you know,
you do hear a lot of talk about that kind
of thing, like, oh, people are going to be coming
into our country. You know, depending on who you talk
to in this country, some people might welcome them, some
people might not. But as Livia is very as student
to point out, generally what we're talking about nowadays, the
more common thing that you're seeing is people people don't
(04:05):
want to leave their home, you know, so they'll move
as kind of close as they can to where they're from,
rather than say, hey, let's just pick up and go
to a completely different country where I know nothing about
it and I don't speak the language. Like what's generally
happening is if there's a climate issue, like let's say,
which could look like a lot of things, so we're
going to talk about a lot of them. It could
(04:26):
mean I just can't farm here anymore because it's so
drought prone, or there was a my coastline is disappearing,
or there was a natural disaster here so I have
to leave. People want to move close to where they are,
so they're generally saying, like, all right, I can't be
out here in the farm area anymore, so let's move
toward the urban centers. And that's why a lot of
(04:46):
these urban centers in the global South are popping at
the seams.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, and it's gonna definitely get more poppy for sure
as we go. Yeah, but as it stands right now,
especially say like you can take California for an example,
they deal with wildfires like that's just a fact of life,
and it's getting to be a much more frequent fact
of life. So if you leave your house because there's
(05:12):
a wildfire in your backyard, you are technically a climate
migrant right then. But if you go back and rebuild
or your house didn't end up burning down, you're basically
following the current pattern of climate migration. You're leaving long
enough for you to take yourself out of harm's way
during the disaster the extreme weather event, and then going back.
(05:35):
But if you do that enough times, some people are
going to just get tired of that and they're eventually
not going to go back. And that's kind of like
how climate migration, at least say in the United States
right now, is starting to look or starting to starting
to establish itself, right.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
But the idea is that I guess, if you're moving
away from where wildfires are more rampant, you're going to
move to a place probably as close as you can,
unless you know, in America, if you have like family
on the other side of the country or something where
those wildfires generally don't happy, maybe you'll do that. But
if we're talking about countries, you're probably moving within your country.
(06:18):
And within your country there is not like, oh, well,
you know, I'm at a place where the climate problem
isn't a problem, so it's not solving a bigger problem,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, and even more so, like if you're a migrant,
even within your own country, like you said, say like
to an urban center or something like that, a lot
of times when you show up, you might show up
with all of your neighbors, your entire community, maybe your
entire region. If the say, like the drought is bad
enough and the city's not like, hey, we just happen
(06:51):
to have all this extra free housing for you guys,
so come on in. Very frequently you'll end up in
what amounts to a refugee camp. It's a climate refugee cam,
but it's essentially the same thing as any other refugee camp.
There's usually not running water, there's not good infrastructure. And
this is a point that I hadn't thought of, but
Lvia pointed out, you're maybe even more vulnerable to natural
(07:16):
disasters now because you live in a tent. No, if
a sandstorm comes along, you're in trouble because you just
are in a tent rather than say the house that
you had to leave because your farm was no longer
producing crops.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, and also you're you're living like perhaps in like
a shanty town on the outskirts of town, and you're
going to see increased poverty. That's going to be an
unstable situation, and then violence comes along oftentimes in these places.
She found one study from twenty twenty two of Central
African migrants, five percent reported that they moved specifically for
(07:53):
environmental reasons, but fifty percent said yeah, but that played
a part in the decision to leave, Like whether or
not they're saying, like, no, the drought's too bad here,
I'm leaving, or some places are just the extreme heat
is becoming so bad as people just can't live there anymore.
They're not saying I'm moving just because of that, but
(08:13):
half of them were saying, like, yeah, that was a
factor that led to this whole mess.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Right, Yeah. And there's probably the most famous, most well studied,
recent example of climate migration leading to violent conflict was
the Syrian Civil War. Yeah, between two thousand and six
and twenty ten, there was a really really bad drought
in Syria and the surrounding region and a lot of
(08:40):
people had to move to the city or cities, and
they were like a lot of people were displaced and
they joined people who had already arrived as refugees before
from Iraq and from Palestine, and so all these people
are there, the government is basically ignoring them, tending like
(09:00):
they're not there. Their farms are being lost, they're getting
zero help from the government, which has become a neoliberal
under Bashar al Assad, who took over from his father,
and they start the UNRESK. It's bad enough that a
civil war starts, like there's a rebel insurgency to topple Asad.
And it actually ended up working. It didn't at first
(09:22):
because a sod famously used chemical weapons on his own
people and he got everything under control, but then they
made a second push this past I think December, and
ran them out of the country and actually took over.
And you could trace that ultimately back to that drought
that was created largely by climate change. And that's that's nuts.
(09:47):
Like if you think about it, if that drought had
never happened, there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war.
And that's probably the most extreme version example of climate
a climate crisis leading to violence, armed conflict. But it's
not like it doesn't exist, it's not like it doesn't
happen like that happened.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean, over an eight year period from two
thousand and two to twenty ten, the urban population in
Syria went from just under nine million people to almost
fourteen millions. That is a lot of people to add.
But and this isn't like in full agreement, so this
is at a counterpoint. But Syria mishandled that. And there
are other countries in the region that suffered through the
(10:29):
same drought, specifically Jordan and Lebanon, that had a government
that was more proactive and responsive, and they had policies
that were put in place that they didn't have the
same kind of you know, destructive outcomes that Syria had.
So it's you know, it all depends on how you're
handling this situation. We're going to talk a lot about countries,
(10:50):
you know, people leaving countries, and then especially the receiving countries,
because that's really where the rubber meets the road.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
For sure. If the rubber hasn't melted by then that's right.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And if the road is still intact and not cracked
to pieces, it hasn't buckled.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, there are actually some estimates all over the place
about how many climate migrants they're going to be, And
there was something called the ground Swell Report that the
World Bank put out in twenty twenty one, and they
are saying by twenty fifty, two hundred and sixteen million
people will have moved either to another country or within
(11:31):
their own country because climate conditions have made where they
used to live untenable. So we're talking twenty five years,
not even thirty years anymore, Chuck, We're in twenty twenty five.
If my math holds up, that's just twenty five years
from now. That is a tremendous amount of migration. Some
people say, no, that's probably going to be more like
(11:53):
fifty million. But it seems like that World Bank analysis
is the most commonly cited, although you could also suggest
it's the most commonly sighted because it's such an eye
popping number.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah. True, Well, this is probably a good place since
I promised to talk about something stat related. One of
the reasons it's hard or one of the reasons you
get something like anywhere from fifty to two hundred and
fifty million people this pretty big swing is because we
don't know how effective our efforts are going to be
to curb emissions and to get things, you know, sort
of on the right track again, how successful we're going
(12:26):
to be at you know, some wealthier countries doing things
like sea walls and redistributing water resources and things like that,
because as you'll see a lot of and we've talked
about before that you know, the most precious resource in
the future is love. Is it is love? Oh man,
I needed that water unfortunately, so you know, there have
(12:49):
been people that talk about, you know, the wars of
the future will be fought over water. And as we'll
see a lot of climate migration happens either because of
a lack of water or a lack of water that's
you know, useful for humans, or to too much water,
and other parts like rising sea waters and such.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, for sure. So the World Bank broke it down
that Sub Saharan Africa is going to see by far
the most eighty six million, followed by East Asia the
Pacific at forty nine million, South South Asia forty million,
North Africa nineteen million, although some people are like, it's
going to be even more than that for North America
(13:26):
and parts of the Middle East because it's going to
get so hot that it will be uninhabitable by humans.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, I think you you met in North Africa, not
North America.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
That's right, Yes, North Africa in the Middle East, not
North America in the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think people who listen to the show know us
enough now to where we're like old pals and they're like, oh, Josh, Chuck,
you don't even need to point that out, we know
what he meant.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
You know what, though, I think I think we should
introduce a new device up here in the year seventeen.
Uh huh, whenever I misspeak, just cut me off in
the middle by doing your egg COLORSPT. Can we try that?
You ready. Yeah, so it's going to get so hot
in the Middle East and North America that what did
(14:11):
I say wrong, Chuck?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Nothing, I just like doing that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So I think we've come up with something new that
we really need to do.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
All right, Well, how about this, Why don't we take
a break. You said Latin America was seventeen.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Million, right, No, I never got there.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Latin America seventeen million.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Don't forget Eastern Europe and Central Asia.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Five million, so you know, not nearly as many as
the others. But there are again water scarcity, yeah, in
places like Mongolian Kazakhstan. So now can we take a break.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, we can take a break. I think you should
take us out on your eggs plait sound again?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
All right, we'll be right back sat All right.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
So I kind of teased out the importance of or
I'm sorry, importanse I often tease here in the South everybody,
if you haven't noticed by now and you're seventeen, receiving
communities are very important. How safe these people are going
to be when they move to this place? Is there?
And again, A they're still going to be vulnerable to
(15:39):
the impacts of climate where they go most likely or
are almost you know, with one hundred percent certainty, but
just how safe they're going to be period, because we
talked about sometimes when they set up on the outskirts
of towns and there's violence, and they're more susceptible by
being in a shanty or a tent or something to
just even a hard rain. So it's almost like this,
(16:01):
it's a vicious cycle that's happening where people are being
displaced to places that also aren't safe.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, and we should say that most of this migration,
and most of the migrants are going to be coming
from or going moving within what's called the global South.
And you don't use the equator as the dividing line
for the global South. For example, Australia and New Zealand
squarely in the southern hemisphere, but they're not considered global South.
It's a distinction between the developed and the developing world.
(16:30):
So you have Latin America, Africa, India's usually included, China
is included, and Southeast Asia and these countries ironically are
if you accept China and India, most of these countries
have put out the least amount of emissions that triggered
(16:53):
climate change, and yet they're the most vulnerable to climate
change in large part because they're develop And if you're
a developing country, you're probably still really reliant on agriculture.
You're reliant on things like timber and other natural resources,
and those are the things that are getting impacted first
right off the bat. And so if your economy is
(17:15):
based on agriculture and there's a drought that covers your
entire nation, your economy's in big trouble and your people
are probably going to have to move.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah. Here's the thing though, and this isn't like a
bright side sort of thing. It puts a strain on
resources when a lot of new people come to a place,
but they can also be an asset because most of
those migrants are going to end up performing a lot
of very important jobs in that area. A lot of
them work in agriculture, some work in construction, some work
(17:45):
in childcare. But those same people are also not necessarily
It depends on the receiving community, even down to that
community level, and how they're going to take care of
those people. And what I mean by take care in
this case is just see that they get a fair
shot at like earning a wage by performing a job.
If you face up a lot of potential workplace abuse
(18:08):
if you're one of those migrants. In the United Arab Emirates,
as a striking example, eighty eight percent of the population
there is made up of migrants, mainly from Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh,
and it's very hot there as well, and so they're
not taking care of their migrant population of workers, and
they can just sometimes some companies might be like, you
(18:30):
know what, we're not going to pay you for that.
What are you going to do about it?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, there's a lot of examples of modern slavery force
the labor in the UAE and other countries, very wealthy
Gulf states, and that is a good example of climate migrants,
but really any kind of migrant being taken advantage of,
and it's something that definitely has to be paid attention to.
On the other hand, there are studies that say, okay,
(18:55):
this actually might be good, like, yes, we need to
make sure that the receiving countries are not exploiting the
climate migrants or any migrants, but the pressure that could
be relieved from their home country if they're moving to
more developed or wealthier countries that are more set up
with infrastructure and social structure to absorb them. That actually
(19:19):
could be a plus, because all of a sudden, the
population is not swollen in an urban center where it's
really hot, and you're around people from an ethnic group
that your ethnic group has hated for a thousand years.
Like moving some of these people out to other countries
could actually be a relief valve that could keep social
upheaval from happening.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, potentially so. Under the United Nations, they have a
Refugee Convention from nineteen fifty one that specifically defines the
good thing it does. It defines that refugees are entitled
to legal rights, entitled to travel, some kinds of support, housing,
that kind of thing. But the I guess kind of
(20:01):
the downside of what it did is it very narrowly
defined what a refugee was in the wake of World
War Two, which was you have to be fleeing persecution
on the basis of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or
group membership, and only if you're fleeing from one border
to the next. We already mentioned that a lot of
this is happening within their home country, so they don't
(20:24):
have any of those un guaranteed rights, but a lot
of people legal scholars are saying, hey, we need to
expand that definition to include maybe not necessarily only cross
border and people who were climate refugees.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, like, why not add the sun. You can be
fleeing the sun and we'll consider you a refugee from
now on.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
That's me every summer in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Right, you just go down in your basement right in
turns tasty. Yeah, so yes, there there are like I
guess there's structure. There's like global structure that can be
aplied to climate migrants and climate refugees. It's just that's
not necessarily happening right now. But it wouldn't take much,
I think, is what we're saying, right to just kind
(21:09):
of expand the existing definitions.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, yeah, and that's just you know, that's the UN definition.
There are other places in the world. The Organization of
African Unity Convention in the Latin America, Cartagena. Is that Cartagena?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, I know that from Romancing the Stone.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
We just watched that with Ruby last weekend.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It's such a good movie.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It holds up and it is if you have a
kid that's around that age that's into sort of like
action adventure kind of movies which she is. It's a
it's a great one. Man. She had a really good
time and it's not like super inappropriate for an eighties movie.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
That's really surprising. Did you follow up with Jewel of
the Nile?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Not yet, but yeah, that'll be coming. It's just Danny DeVito. Man,
what a national treasure that guy is.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, he really is a jewel.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So great, ira Ah, I forgot how much I love
remains in this done all right? So back to Cartagenia Declaration.
They have an expanded definition of refugee that is more
broad than the UN where they say events that are
seriously disturbing public order, which obviously could include climate events.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, the sun can do that.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
So one of the things that a lot of these
nations that are going to be most affected are saying
is like, hey, we appreciate you guys thinking about this,
but we don't really want to move. So is there
like a version of this where we can stay and
you wealthy countries who kind of got us into this
mess in the first place, can maybe help fund some
(22:46):
of the mitigation efforts that we're trying to put in place.
And so far the wealthy countries are like well, I
can't hear you the connections breaking up, but that may
change as we get a little further down the road.
Who knows. But there are some govern ver Mints that
are like kind of starting to plant because they're like,
this is not this is not twenty fifty for us.
(23:06):
This is like twenty thirty that we're having to worry about.
And in some places it's already started happening. Like Kirabody
is a Pacific island nations. Yeah, it's thirty two nations,
about one hundred and thirty thousand people, and at best
it's just about at sea level. Yeah, and when sea
level is rising, Kirabody is going under the sea. And
(23:26):
apparently sea level is rising about four times faster than
other parts of the world.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, the riding's on the wall. They are very sadly,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
So their their government was like, Okay, we have to
figure out how to move people, and we have to
figure out how to do it right, And they started
looking at Fiji.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Right, Yeah, and Fiji kind of stepped up and were like, hey,
we have some underdeveloped plan I guess it was undeveloped
planned that we can sell you. This is in twenty fourteen,
and the president at the time of Kirabody was a
no Tong, Yeah that's right, Yeah, all right, and Tong's
(24:04):
you know, was all over this, like let's buy this land,
let's move people like not just you know a few families,
like let's start moving on mass over there, because you know,
the writing is on the wall here and these islands
just aren't going to be around. At some point he
was calling it migration with dignity. And then in twenty sixteen,
Tong lost the president to Tanetti Mamau, and this it
(24:29):
was just you know, sometimes when a new administration comes in, Josh,
things can shift in radical directions. I don't know if
you knew that or not.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I could see Mamau basically running on this platform because
I'm guessing one hundred and thirty thousand people in a
thirty two island spread is cure body, like I'm guessing
moving the entire country to Fiji. It's probably top of
the mind of the voters there. So I'm guessing that
(24:58):
Mao Mao or ma Mao ran on a platform against
moving and was like, no, we're going to figure out
how to stay here. We're going to build sea walls.
We're going to cross our fingers, We're going to use
faerry dust. Who knows what they were running on, but
they won because people don't want to move if they
don't have to, If there's a chance of them staying
(25:19):
where they lived, where their families have lived, they want
to stay. Typically, that's what people are who study climate
migrants are finding.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, well, in that case, it was you know, billions
of dollars to like physically re engineer these islands and
build those walls, and they didn't have that kind of dough.
So China stepped up and said, hey, you got that
marine protected zone where you don't allow fishing, give us
those fishing rights. So this is just sort of another
good example of the domino effect that can happen. All
(25:51):
of a sudden, you're wrecking that part of the sea
because it was a protected zone. This no longer protected
because China said, hey, we'll help you have re engineer
those islands if you let us fish there. But they
only ended up giving a fraction of the cost of
what's needed. I think New Zealand is also stepping up
right well.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
They tried to. They created a new visa specifically for
residents of places like Kirabodi who are like, we need
to get out now. And New Zealand very kindly was like,
you guys can come live here. We're going to make
it as easy as possible on you. And the people
of Kirabody just gave them crickets back. Yeah, in New
Zealand within six months, like cancel the program because they
(26:29):
had basically no takers. They did not need this special
visa because people again don't want to move if there's
any chance of them not having to move. I get it,
you know, I totally get it as well for sure.
And I mean if you if you put yourself in
that mindset, it suddenly is like, Okay, I kind of
get why people keep moving back after their house burns
down from wildfire or it gets blown away by a
(26:51):
hurricane or it gets like picked up by a tornado.
That's where you live, and it just hasn't I feel
like it just hasn't got quite frequent enough for people,
at least, let's say in the United States. It's my
frame of reference to just be like, Okay, this is
not going to change. This it's going to keep getting worse.
We need to we need to leave.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah. I mean, I think people are two minds here,
and it seems like there are way more people that
are are so attached to their home they don't want
to leave it, but they're you know, I've heard just
anecdotally stories of people They're like, I'm getting the heck
out of California, or I'm getting the heck out of
a hurricane you know, prone area like the you know,
(27:34):
if you live around the Gulf of Mexico or something
like that, in those panhandily areas, or in like Houston
or Miami. You know, we're getting out of dodge. So
some people are doing that, but it definitely doesn't seem like,
you know, people are taking it seriously enough yet.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
What's nuts, though, is if you go to Miami today,
their skyline is covered with construction cranes. They cannot build
skyscrapers for housing fast enough because so many people are
still moving to Miami. And I say we take a
break and come back and talk about what's going to
(28:12):
happen to cities in the US as far as climate
migration is concerned. Okay, Chuck, So I name checked Miami
(28:47):
before the break, and that is a really good example
of a city that is kind of up in the
air for how much climate migration is going to affect it.
Is it going to get so bad there that they're
just gonna have to abandon Miami and it'll look like
a reverse the day after tomorrow, but with heat and
(29:09):
seawater rather than everything being frozen, which, by.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
The way, I saw that the other day for the
first time.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
No, it's actually one of my favorite movies, it turns out,
because every single time it's on, I will just sit
there and watch it.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Oh did I see that? I think I might have
seen that all the way through back when it came out,
but that was it.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah. I hesitate to use the word good because it's great,
but it's yeah, I just like it. It's one of those. Really.
It's like Zodiac. I can watch Zodiac anytime it comes on,
Like I might not search it out, but I'll just
sit there and watch it if it's you know, presented
to me somehow.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
No, I'm the same way. There's something about Zodiac that
is just endlessly watchable to me.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, for sure. But the day after tomorrow's like that
for me.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Okay, well you know what, I should check it out again. Oh,
and I think I have a good reason to coming
up canted.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, that's actually what triggered that idea. Yeah, okay, you
and me just talking about something that only you and
I know about.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I know, you know. I have a couple of stats
as far as the United States goes. This is at
this point already here in twenty twenty five, two or
three million Americans leave their homes every year, every single year,
two to three million due to natural disasters that happened floods, earthquakes, fires, hurricanes,
(30:29):
all the stuff that happens here. I don't you know
the volcanoes.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That's not the one, that's not the ones. Well there's
Mount Saint Helens that was a big deal.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, true, But generally in the lower forty
eight we don't have volcanoes.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Right, So that two to three million number, those are
people who move permanently, right. That's not just people who
like leave and then come back.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
No, no, no, those are most of those people do return.
But over the past couple of decades, about three million
people have moved just to avoid flooding, which is a
long period of time. But those are people that are
just like, yeah, it just this place floods. I mean,
I remember after Katrina. I feel like Atlanta got a
pretty decent amount of displaced New Orleans residents that stayed here.
(31:15):
I have evidence by going to Falcons.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Games, right, So did Houston too.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, so that's a great example of that kind of
thing happening. And like, I'm sure a lot of them
went back when it was clear that New Orleans was
going to be rebuilt and revitalized and get back to normal,
but a lot of them stayed. I'm sure a lot
of them are, Like, things don't flood quite as much
here in Atlanta, so I'm gonna just kind of stay here.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yeah, in Atlanta. I mean, New Orleans is certainly such
a singular unique city in America culturally, like maybe more
so than almost any city I've been to. So Atlanta
is not that, but it's another big city in the
South that I think is at least relatable to somebody
from New Orleans in some ways.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
For sure. Yeah, there's like ninety eight percent less brass
bands marching around, but you know, there's still a certain
amount of like Southern affinity between the two cities.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Right, Yeah, for like big cities.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So sea level rise is going to affect the US,
but I didn't know this. There's like, you know, they
talk about sea level rise, you know, being zero point
one millimeter a year or something like that, or they're
predicting that's the global average. Sea level rises in different
places at different rates, and it can be so local
that apparently the eastern seaboard of the United States is
(32:34):
that sea level is rising faster than the West coast.
It can be that local. And the reason why is
there's something called post glacial rebound where the top part
of the Eastern Seaboard, like New York, all that area
was pressed down by a glacier, and after the glacier
retreated ten thousand or so years ago, that part of
(32:58):
the land is still moving up. It's coming back, it's rebounding,
but at the same time that's kind of pushing down
like a seesaw the southern part of the Eastern seaboard.
So that's actually the sea levels are rising faster there
than even in the northern part of the Eastern Seaboard.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
It's crazy, yeah, and you know that's just sea level rise.
And this isn't a AM reticent to do episodes sometimes
where we're just like, you know, slinging fear and statistics, right,
but it's sort of the reality right now. Wild fire
threat has just gotten worse, especially if you're talking about
(33:34):
Nevada and Oregon, places that maybe didn't see the most
wildfire in the past. And it's not just Miami as
far as sea level rise, like New York and Boston.
I mean, New York has seen flooding in you know,
the not too distant past, where we never used to
see things like that happening there.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I saw that some of the communities, the houses along
Jamaica Bay, which I guess is Queens, right, Yeah, they
flood every time there's a high tide, there's a full moon,
like real blood. Their entire basement just totally flooded, and
it's starting to happen every single time there's a full
moon at high tide. So yeah, I was reading like
they're on the forefront of talking about climate migration in
(34:16):
the US.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Well. The other thing too, that we've mentioned earlier, we
haven't talked so much since then, is this not necessarily
a climate event or some natural disaster either to cause
climate migration. It's like farmers, if they can't farm there
anymore and their livelihood is gone, they might move and
across the south and Southwest, especially in Texas, the projections
(34:40):
for corn and soy are just falling, falling, falling, So
you're going to be able to grow that easier in
other parts of the country. So that's a bit of
a silver lining is things you know, change and shift,
but those are going to eventually be climate migrants, those
farmers there.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah, And so it seems like the projection that twenty
fifty twenty seventy, the current climate that spreads across the
United States is going to shift northward by a few states,
and those states that are currently hot right now but
still you know, kind of nice, like Florida coastal Georgia,
they're going to potentially become uninhabitable just because it's going
(35:21):
to be so hot. So it turns out I was
right about the Middle East and North America becoming so
hot that it can be uninhabitable. And apparently that's due
to what's called the wet bulb temperature, which is a
mind boggling formula that barely anyone on the Internet can explain.
And I can't throw sling arrows because I can't really
(35:41):
explain it either. But essentially it's the temperature where your
body will no longer be able to cool itself, and
so being outside in the sun just standing there is
actually life threatening. They're saying that it's going to become
the norm for say, like Florida and so in Georgia
to hit those temperatures, and so the people are just
(36:03):
gonna have to move because you wouldn't be able to
leave your house and even go outside.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Do you remember when we were tasked with doing a
panel at a podcast movement that's the name of the
industry conference, I guess, yeah con Yeah, but it's like
an industry conference. And we were supposed to speak in
like ten minutes on stage and someone and a fire
(36:29):
alarm or something went out. Oh yeah, and they made
us go outside. And it was two minutes in the
Orlando summer heat after it had stopped raining when it
was afternoon. Florida rains right everywhere on elsewhere on Earth.
That cools things down, but it makes things hotter in
central Florida. Yeah, and we went outside and had to
stand out there for like twenty minutes before they let
(36:50):
us back in. And dude, I'm a hot, sweaty person anyway,
I have never sweated that much that fast in my life. Yeah,
I was dying and they were like, all right, back
in everybody and hop on stage right.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I remember that I was pretty sweaty too.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Oh man, I was in bad shape. It was not good.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Just wait till twenty seventy pounds.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I now you just melt podcast movement twenty seventy.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Right right here we are. So the US is actually
a good example of people not freaking out. Some people
freaking out, but it seems mostly like it's the media
just kind of poking and goosing everybody that Among scholars
who study this, they're not particularly freaked out. They're like, yes,
some people are going to have to move. Yes, it's
(37:37):
going to really start to pick up eventually, but there
will also be mitigation efforts that we can do. Like
we're Miami's just too valuable to just go away, So
they're going to figure out how to build sea walls,
protect Miami and make sure that it's aquafer doesn't get
salinated in ruin. Like the people will just pump money
(38:00):
into Miami, the US government will, Florida will. But if
you go like a little north, you know who's to
say that Delray Beach or Vero Beach is going to
be around still at that time. Right, cities will be protected,
but the smaller towns in between the major cities on
the coast, there's not going to be any money for them,
(38:22):
So those people are going to have to move.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, And I mean that kind of puts things squarely
in the middle of the policy debates we're hearing more
and more, which is how much do we put into
places that we think are increasingly unlivable in the future.
This is something I did not know. I'm glad Livia
dug this up. But FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency,
has been buying up properties that are prone to this,
(38:48):
that are just flooding time and time again, and they're
turning this land into wetland and trying to do something
about it. And you know, there are various states that
are saying, like, hey, you know, it's getting harder and
harder to get your house insured against fire. We used
to subsidize these insurance companies. Now we're not doing that.
I have friends in California, like, if you buy a
(39:10):
house in certain parts of California, so sometimes you cannot
even get insurance anymore.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Right. The same is true in parts of Florida too.
It's really becoming a big problem to even get insurance rather,
let alone like being able to afford an insurance policy.
And as that happens, as it becomes more and more
apparent that if you move to Florida or you move
to California, there's this huge additional expense or potentially you
(39:35):
might not be able to have home insurance. Like that's
going to affect those markets, and that in and of
itself is going to keep people from migrating there. And
it's going to also that's what will trigger mass migrations
from Florida from California because people are going to start
panicking about their real estate values just plummeting. Yeah, a
(39:57):
lot of people will get out.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
People of me, we'll get out.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, And that's a really important point. It doesn't matter
what country you're talking about, whether it's Global North, global South,
doesn't matter. The ability to migrate is typically something reserved
for the more well.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Off groups or to migrate successfully.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Right, Okay, great, The poorest, the most vulnerable people in
no matter whatever country you're talking about, those are the
ones who are at the greatest risk of just getting
left behind. They don't have the money to move. They don't.
They can't sell their house now because no one wants
to buy it because it's basically valueless, and they're stuck
(40:40):
in this place that everyone else who could migrated out of.
That is going to be a really big thing to
watch for. Those people are going to need help. They're
human beings. They didn't ask for this, That's just how
the dice landed. So they deserve to be helped again,
just because they're humans, just because they're Americans, just because
(41:00):
they're Zimbabweans, it doesn't matter. That's going to be something
to really pay attention to down the road.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Boy, what kind of world would we be in, my friend,
if the qualification for aid to others was fellow human
and not drawn by boundaries and ideologies.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I hope that that's I mean, my hope is that
someday we'll hit that point. I don't know if we'll
still be alive or not, but I do hope that.
I do think people will get there if we survive
as species.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
I mean, plenty of great organizations have been doing that
since the jump, but I'm talking about major governments in
the world looking at other humans as you know, other humans.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Or even societies too, you know, I mean, yeah, yeah,
I mean that's just everywhere in the world, there's so
many pockets of just conflict and issues and hatred of
people for ultimately like arbitrary reasons. The idea of yeah,
getting to that point, Chuck, it's just it's titillating to me.
(42:04):
I'm titillated right now. I think that's it for now. Huh,
it's got to be Well, we'll revisit this in twenty fifty.
All right, all right, Well, since Chuck agreed to revisiting
this episode in twenty fifty, everybody, that means it's time
for a listener mail.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Follow up from a backyard chicken farmer or about egg colors. Hey,
I've listened to you goofballs for years. So much love
to you and your gang. Yes, please support your local
farmers with their truly humanly raised eggs, costing in many
cases lessen store bought. Like Chuck said, you're getting an
amazing deal for higher quality eggs. Number two, guys. The
(42:44):
waxy coating is called a bloom. It's a naturally produced
coating which is not hard or thick, that is placed
as a part of the laying process to protect the
egg contents from bacteria. I believe Josh said.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
That comes off easily with just a little bit of dawn.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Th'e Please do not use dish soap to wash your eggs.
Oh yeah, while eggshells are strong, they're not inpermeable. Eggs
need to be washed with just water or water and
an egg safe cleaner at a temperature about twenty degrees higher, right,
but no more than that, because you can cook the
egg on the inside.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Oh that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Twenty degrees higher than the temperature of the egg interior.
Washing an egg at too high will potentially cook it.
Wash it a temperature lower than the shell contents, and
the permeable nature of the shell will actually absorb the
exterior contents. So you're eating whatever soap that you are using.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Well, not dawn, it says on the label Eggs Safe Cleaner.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
This knowledge is gained from keeping my own backyard flock
for over a decade, and that is from the wonderful Meg.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Thanks a lot, Meg, that was a top notch email.
We appreciate it, and thank you for saving everybody who's
about to wash their eggs with dish soap. Under my suggestion,
if you want to be like Meg and get in
touch with this and be like, oh no, no, no, here's
what you really should do. We love those kind of emails.
You can send it off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio
(44:04):
dot com.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and
there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there,
and this is stuff you should know. The is it
getting hot in here? Is it just me?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Edition? Uh? Yeah, that's right. Well, you know what we
can do. We can just migrate to another part of
the iHeart offices here.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Nice, a nice school studio.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, they really do keep them cool, frankly cold.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yeah. And that's the last fun we're going to have
on this episode because this is not so fun.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That is not true. There's plenty of places for jokes. Okay,
all right, good do you remember we did one on
comas and we had jokes, So come on, right, we
can do this.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So we're talking climate migration and it's a really interesting topic.
This was your idea, actually, and I tip my hat
to you than you and uh, I'm just joking. I'm
not I'm not wearing a hat.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
See another joke.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So the thing that surprised me, So we're climate migration,
we should just tell people off the bat is where
people have to move somewhere else because extreme weather, droughts,
basically anything extreme temperatures, anything that has to do with
climate change based ruining where they live. That's climate migration
(01:31):
human wise.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yes, like there's an animal climate migration we're not even
going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
No, we did a whole episode on plant migration that
was due to climate too, So this is yes, that
was a good catch. This is human specific. And one
of the things that struck me about this is there's
a there's not a lot of like solid agreement on
exactly how bad things are going to be and exactly
(01:56):
how far people are going to have to move, and
even a moong the people who do agree, the experts
who do generally agree on some stuff, there's still like,
I don't know that this is going to be as
bad as it's being portrayed, like say in the media.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, for sure. And you know, we'll get to some
studies and stats and things. But the stats you got
to keep in mindor kind of a guess because as
Libya points out, or maybe we'll just talk about that
when we get to the stats part.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Okay, but I just wanted to put I wanted to
put a lid on the hysteria because, like you said,
we just don't know yet, and it might not be
as bad as we think. There might be some pluses.
There are definitely going to be some minuses, but it's
something that we're talking about now, and it's decades enough
into the future that we have time to prepare for it.
It's kind of like we went from Okay, let's stop
(02:45):
emitting greenhouse gases to Okay, it's too late for that.
Now we have to figure out how to deal with
the repercussions of that. That's where we're at. But we
have a little bit of time, and if we start
thinking about and talking about how to do this smartly
and responsibly without again becoming hysterical and overplanning and overdoing it,
we could do this right and make it as comfortable
(03:07):
as possible.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, we being specifically the United States because there are
other parts of the world that are already sort of
proactive rather than kind of, like you said, being reactive
and waiting when potential refugees are just sort of at
the border saying like we have no place to go
because our have our place almost said habitat. I guess
(03:28):
humans have a habitat, right.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, sure, is that true? Yeah, every animal has a habitat.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Okay, I didn't know if I was being callous by
considering us all just animals.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Were you being a speciest?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Maybe so? But if speaking of the US, you know,
you do hear a lot of talk about that kind
of thing, like, oh, people are going to be coming
into our country. You know, depending on who you talk
to in this country, some people might welcome them, some
people might not. But as Livia is very as student
to point out, generally what we're talking about nowadays, the
more common thing that you're seeing is people people don't
(04:05):
want to leave their home, you know, so they'll move
as kind of close as they can to where they're from,
rather than say, hey, let's just pick up and go
to a completely different country where I know nothing about
it and I don't speak the language. Like what's generally
happening is if there's a climate issue, like let's say,
which could look like a lot of things, so we're
going to talk about a lot of them. It could
(04:26):
mean I just can't farm here anymore because it's so
drought prone, or there was a my coastline is disappearing,
or there was a natural disaster here so I have
to leave. People want to move close to where they are,
so they're generally saying, like, all right, I can't be
out here in the farm area anymore, so let's move
toward the urban centers. And that's why a lot of
(04:46):
these urban centers in the global South are popping at
the seams.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, and it's gonna definitely get more poppy for sure
as we go. Yeah, but as it stands right now,
especially say like you can take California for an example,
they deal with wildfires like that's just a fact of life,
and it's getting to be a much more frequent fact
of life. So if you leave your house because there's
(05:12):
a wildfire in your backyard, you are technically a climate
migrant right then. But if you go back and rebuild
or your house didn't end up burning down, you're basically
following the current pattern of climate migration. You're leaving long
enough for you to take yourself out of harm's way
during the disaster the extreme weather event, and then going back.
(05:35):
But if you do that enough times, some people are
going to just get tired of that and they're eventually
not going to go back. And that's kind of like
how climate migration, at least say in the United States
right now, is starting to look or starting to starting
to establish itself, right.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
But the idea is that I guess, if you're moving
away from where wildfires are more rampant, you're going to
move to a place probably as close as you can,
unless you know, in America, if you have like family
on the other side of the country or something where
those wildfires generally don't happy, maybe you'll do that. But
if we're talking about countries, you're probably moving within your country.
(06:18):
And within your country there is not like, oh, well,
you know, I'm at a place where the climate problem
isn't a problem, so it's not solving a bigger problem,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, and even more so, like if you're a migrant,
even within your own country, like you said, say like
to an urban center or something like that, a lot
of times when you show up, you might show up
with all of your neighbors, your entire community, maybe your
entire region. If the say, like the drought is bad
enough and the city's not like, hey, we just happen
(06:51):
to have all this extra free housing for you guys,
so come on in. Very frequently you'll end up in
what amounts to a refugee camp. It's a climate refugee cam,
but it's essentially the same thing as any other refugee camp.
There's usually not running water, there's not good infrastructure. And
this is a point that I hadn't thought of, but
Lvia pointed out, you're maybe even more vulnerable to natural
(07:16):
disasters now because you live in a tent. No, if
a sandstorm comes along, you're in trouble because you just
are in a tent rather than say the house that
you had to leave because your farm was no longer
producing crops.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, and also you're you're living like perhaps in like
a shanty town on the outskirts of town, and you're
going to see increased poverty. That's going to be an
unstable situation, and then violence comes along oftentimes in these places.
She found one study from twenty twenty two of Central
African migrants, five percent reported that they moved specifically for
(07:53):
environmental reasons, but fifty percent said yeah, but that played
a part in the decision to leave, Like whether or
not they're saying, like, no, the drought's too bad here,
I'm leaving, or some places are just the extreme heat
is becoming so bad as people just can't live there anymore.
They're not saying I'm moving just because of that, but
(08:13):
half of them were saying, like, yeah, that was a
factor that led to this whole mess.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Right, Yeah. And there's probably the most famous, most well studied,
recent example of climate migration leading to violent conflict was
the Syrian Civil War. Yeah, between two thousand and six
and twenty ten, there was a really really bad drought
in Syria and the surrounding region and a lot of
(08:40):
people had to move to the city or cities, and
they were like a lot of people were displaced and
they joined people who had already arrived as refugees before
from Iraq and from Palestine, and so all these people
are there, the government is basically ignoring them, tending like
(09:00):
they're not there. Their farms are being lost, they're getting
zero help from the government, which has become a neoliberal
under Bashar al Assad, who took over from his father,
and they start the UNRESK. It's bad enough that a
civil war starts, like there's a rebel insurgency to topple Asad.
And it actually ended up working. It didn't at first
(09:22):
because a sod famously used chemical weapons on his own
people and he got everything under control, but then they
made a second push this past I think December, and
ran them out of the country and actually took over.
And you could trace that ultimately back to that drought
that was created largely by climate change. And that's that's nuts.
(09:47):
Like if you think about it, if that drought had
never happened, there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war.
And that's probably the most extreme version example of climate
a climate crisis leading to violence, armed conflict. But it's
not like it doesn't exist, it's not like it doesn't
happen like that happened.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean, over an eight year period from two
thousand and two to twenty ten, the urban population in
Syria went from just under nine million people to almost
fourteen millions. That is a lot of people to add.
But and this isn't like in full agreement, so this
is at a counterpoint. But Syria mishandled that. And there
are other countries in the region that suffered through the
(10:29):
same drought, specifically Jordan and Lebanon, that had a government
that was more proactive and responsive, and they had policies
that were put in place that they didn't have the
same kind of you know, destructive outcomes that Syria had.
So it's you know, it all depends on how you're
handling this situation. We're going to talk a lot about countries,
(10:50):
you know, people leaving countries, and then especially the receiving countries,
because that's really where the rubber meets the road.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
For sure. If the rubber hasn't melted by then that's right.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And if the road is still intact and not cracked
to pieces, it hasn't buckled.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, there are actually some estimates all over the place
about how many climate migrants they're going to be, And
there was something called the ground Swell Report that the
World Bank put out in twenty twenty one, and they
are saying by twenty fifty, two hundred and sixteen million
people will have moved either to another country or within
(11:31):
their own country because climate conditions have made where they
used to live untenable. So we're talking twenty five years,
not even thirty years anymore, Chuck, We're in twenty twenty five.
If my math holds up, that's just twenty five years
from now. That is a tremendous amount of migration. Some
people say, no, that's probably going to be more like
(11:53):
fifty million. But it seems like that World Bank analysis
is the most commonly cited, although you could also suggest
it's the most commonly sighted because it's such an eye
popping number.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah. True, Well, this is probably a good place since
I promised to talk about something stat related. One of
the reasons it's hard or one of the reasons you
get something like anywhere from fifty to two hundred and
fifty million people this pretty big swing is because we
don't know how effective our efforts are going to be
to curb emissions and to get things, you know, sort
of on the right track again, how successful we're going
(12:26):
to be at you know, some wealthier countries doing things
like sea walls and redistributing water resources and things like that,
because as you'll see a lot of and we've talked
about before that you know, the most precious resource in
the future is love. Is it is love? Oh man,
I needed that water unfortunately, so you know, there have
(12:49):
been people that talk about, you know, the wars of
the future will be fought over water. And as we'll
see a lot of climate migration happens either because of
a lack of water or a lack of water that's
you know, useful for humans, or to too much water,
and other parts like rising sea waters and such.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, for sure. So the World Bank broke it down
that Sub Saharan Africa is going to see by far
the most eighty six million, followed by East Asia the
Pacific at forty nine million, South South Asia forty million,
North Africa nineteen million, although some people are like, it's
going to be even more than that for North America
(13:26):
and parts of the Middle East because it's going to
get so hot that it will be uninhabitable by humans.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, I think you you met in North Africa, not
North America.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
That's right, Yes, North Africa in the Middle East, not
North America in the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think people who listen to the show know us
enough now to where we're like old pals and they're like, oh, Josh, Chuck,
you don't even need to point that out, we know
what he meant.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
You know what, though, I think I think we should
introduce a new device up here in the year seventeen.
Uh huh, whenever I misspeak, just cut me off in
the middle by doing your egg COLORSPT. Can we try that?
You ready. Yeah, so it's going to get so hot
in the Middle East and North America that what did
(14:11):
I say wrong, Chuck?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Nothing, I just like doing that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So I think we've come up with something new that
we really need to do.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
All right, Well, how about this, Why don't we take
a break. You said Latin America was seventeen.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Million, right, No, I never got there.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Latin America seventeen million.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Don't forget Eastern Europe and Central Asia.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Five million, so you know, not nearly as many as
the others. But there are again water scarcity, yeah, in
places like Mongolian Kazakhstan. So now can we take a break.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, we can take a break. I think you should
take us out on your eggs plait sound again?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
All right, we'll be right back sat All right.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
So I kind of teased out the importance of or
I'm sorry, importanse I often tease here in the South everybody,
if you haven't noticed by now and you're seventeen, receiving
communities are very important. How safe these people are going
to be when they move to this place? Is there?
And again, A they're still going to be vulnerable to
(15:39):
the impacts of climate where they go most likely or
are almost you know, with one hundred percent certainty, but
just how safe they're going to be period, because we
talked about sometimes when they set up on the outskirts
of towns and there's violence, and they're more susceptible by
being in a shanty or a tent or something to
just even a hard rain. So it's almost like this,
(16:01):
it's a vicious cycle that's happening where people are being
displaced to places that also aren't safe.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, and we should say that most of this migration,
and most of the migrants are going to be coming
from or going moving within what's called the global South.
And you don't use the equator as the dividing line
for the global South. For example, Australia and New Zealand
squarely in the southern hemisphere, but they're not considered global South.
It's a distinction between the developed and the developing world.
(16:30):
So you have Latin America, Africa, India's usually included, China
is included, and Southeast Asia and these countries ironically are
if you accept China and India, most of these countries
have put out the least amount of emissions that triggered
(16:53):
climate change, and yet they're the most vulnerable to climate
change in large part because they're develop And if you're
a developing country, you're probably still really reliant on agriculture.
You're reliant on things like timber and other natural resources,
and those are the things that are getting impacted first
right off the bat. And so if your economy is
(17:15):
based on agriculture and there's a drought that covers your
entire nation, your economy's in big trouble and your people
are probably going to have to move.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah. Here's the thing though, and this isn't like a
bright side sort of thing. It puts a strain on
resources when a lot of new people come to a place,
but they can also be an asset because most of
those migrants are going to end up performing a lot
of very important jobs in that area. A lot of
them work in agriculture, some work in construction, some work
(17:45):
in childcare. But those same people are also not necessarily
It depends on the receiving community, even down to that
community level, and how they're going to take care of
those people. And what I mean by take care in
this case is just see that they get a fair
shot at like earning a wage by performing a job.
If you face up a lot of potential workplace abuse
(18:08):
if you're one of those migrants. In the United Arab Emirates,
as a striking example, eighty eight percent of the population
there is made up of migrants, mainly from Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh,
and it's very hot there as well, and so they're
not taking care of their migrant population of workers, and
they can just sometimes some companies might be like, you
(18:30):
know what, we're not going to pay you for that.
What are you going to do about it?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, there's a lot of examples of modern slavery force
the labor in the UAE and other countries, very wealthy
Gulf states, and that is a good example of climate migrants,
but really any kind of migrant being taken advantage of,
and it's something that definitely has to be paid attention to.
On the other hand, there are studies that say, okay,
(18:55):
this actually might be good, like, yes, we need to
make sure that the receiving countries are not exploiting the
climate migrants or any migrants, but the pressure that could
be relieved from their home country if they're moving to
more developed or wealthier countries that are more set up
with infrastructure and social structure to absorb them. That actually
(19:19):
could be a plus, because all of a sudden, the
population is not swollen in an urban center where it's
really hot, and you're around people from an ethnic group
that your ethnic group has hated for a thousand years.
Like moving some of these people out to other countries
could actually be a relief valve that could keep social
upheaval from happening.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, potentially so. Under the United Nations, they have a
Refugee Convention from nineteen fifty one that specifically defines the
good thing it does. It defines that refugees are entitled
to legal rights, entitled to travel, some kinds of support, housing,
that kind of thing. But the I guess kind of
(20:01):
the downside of what it did is it very narrowly
defined what a refugee was in the wake of World
War Two, which was you have to be fleeing persecution
on the basis of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or
group membership, and only if you're fleeing from one border
to the next. We already mentioned that a lot of
this is happening within their home country, so they don't
(20:24):
have any of those un guaranteed rights, but a lot
of people legal scholars are saying, hey, we need to
expand that definition to include maybe not necessarily only cross
border and people who were climate refugees.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, like, why not add the sun. You can be
fleeing the sun and we'll consider you a refugee from
now on.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
That's me every summer in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Right, you just go down in your basement right in
turns tasty. Yeah, so yes, there there are like I
guess there's structure. There's like global structure that can be
aplied to climate migrants and climate refugees. It's just that's
not necessarily happening right now. But it wouldn't take much,
I think, is what we're saying, right to just kind
(21:09):
of expand the existing definitions.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, yeah, and that's just you know, that's the UN definition.
There are other places in the world. The Organization of
African Unity Convention in the Latin America, Cartagena. Is that Cartagena?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, I know that from Romancing the Stone.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
We just watched that with Ruby last weekend.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It's such a good movie.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It holds up and it is if you have a
kid that's around that age that's into sort of like
action adventure kind of movies which she is. It's a
it's a great one. Man. She had a really good
time and it's not like super inappropriate for an eighties movie.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
That's really surprising. Did you follow up with Jewel of
the Nile?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Not yet, but yeah, that'll be coming. It's just Danny DeVito. Man,
what a national treasure that guy is.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, he really is a jewel.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So great, ira Ah, I forgot how much I love
remains in this done all right? So back to Cartagenia Declaration.
They have an expanded definition of refugee that is more
broad than the UN where they say events that are
seriously disturbing public order, which obviously could include climate events.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, the sun can do that.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
So one of the things that a lot of these
nations that are going to be most affected are saying
is like, hey, we appreciate you guys thinking about this,
but we don't really want to move. So is there
like a version of this where we can stay and
you wealthy countries who kind of got us into this
mess in the first place, can maybe help fund some
(22:46):
of the mitigation efforts that we're trying to put in place.
And so far the wealthy countries are like well, I
can't hear you the connections breaking up, but that may
change as we get a little further down the road.
Who knows. But there are some govern ver Mints that
are like kind of starting to plant because they're like,
this is not this is not twenty fifty for us.
(23:06):
This is like twenty thirty that we're having to worry about.
And in some places it's already started happening. Like Kirabody
is a Pacific island nations. Yeah, it's thirty two nations,
about one hundred and thirty thousand people, and at best
it's just about at sea level. Yeah, and when sea
level is rising, Kirabody is going under the sea. And
(23:26):
apparently sea level is rising about four times faster than
other parts of the world.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, the riding's on the wall. They are very sadly,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
So their their government was like, Okay, we have to
figure out how to move people, and we have to
figure out how to do it right, And they started
looking at Fiji.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Right, Yeah, and Fiji kind of stepped up and were like, hey,
we have some underdeveloped plan I guess it was undeveloped
planned that we can sell you. This is in twenty fourteen,
and the president at the time of Kirabody was a
no Tong, Yeah that's right, Yeah, all right, and Tong's
(24:04):
you know, was all over this, like let's buy this land,
let's move people like not just you know a few families,
like let's start moving on mass over there, because you know,
the writing is on the wall here and these islands
just aren't going to be around. At some point he
was calling it migration with dignity. And then in twenty sixteen,
Tong lost the president to Tanetti Mamau, and this it
(24:29):
was just you know, sometimes when a new administration comes in, Josh,
things can shift in radical directions. I don't know if
you knew that or not.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I could see Mamau basically running on this platform because
I'm guessing one hundred and thirty thousand people in a
thirty two island spread is cure body, like I'm guessing
moving the entire country to Fiji. It's probably top of
the mind of the voters there. So I'm guessing that
(24:58):
Mao Mao or ma Mao ran on a platform against
moving and was like, no, we're going to figure out
how to stay here. We're going to build sea walls.
We're going to cross our fingers, We're going to use
faerry dust. Who knows what they were running on, but
they won because people don't want to move if they
don't have to, If there's a chance of them staying
(25:19):
where they lived, where their families have lived, they want
to stay. Typically, that's what people are who study climate
migrants are finding.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, well, in that case, it was you know, billions
of dollars to like physically re engineer these islands and
build those walls, and they didn't have that kind of dough.
So China stepped up and said, hey, you got that
marine protected zone where you don't allow fishing, give us
those fishing rights. So this is just sort of another
good example of the domino effect that can happen. All
(25:51):
of a sudden, you're wrecking that part of the sea
because it was a protected zone. This no longer protected
because China said, hey, we'll help you have re engineer
those islands if you let us fish there. But they
only ended up giving a fraction of the cost of
what's needed. I think New Zealand is also stepping up
right well.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
They tried to. They created a new visa specifically for
residents of places like Kirabodi who are like, we need
to get out now. And New Zealand very kindly was like,
you guys can come live here. We're going to make
it as easy as possible on you. And the people
of Kirabody just gave them crickets back. Yeah, in New
Zealand within six months, like cancel the program because they
(26:29):
had basically no takers. They did not need this special
visa because people again don't want to move if there's
any chance of them not having to move. I get it,
you know, I totally get it as well for sure.
And I mean if you if you put yourself in
that mindset, it suddenly is like, Okay, I kind of
get why people keep moving back after their house burns
down from wildfire or it gets blown away by a
(26:51):
hurricane or it gets like picked up by a tornado.
That's where you live, and it just hasn't I feel
like it just hasn't got quite frequent enough for people,
at least, let's say in the United States. It's my
frame of reference to just be like, Okay, this is
not going to change. This it's going to keep getting worse.
We need to we need to leave.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah. I mean, I think people are two minds here,
and it seems like there are way more people that
are are so attached to their home they don't want
to leave it, but they're you know, I've heard just
anecdotally stories of people They're like, I'm getting the heck
out of California, or I'm getting the heck out of
a hurricane you know, prone area like the you know,
(27:34):
if you live around the Gulf of Mexico or something
like that, in those panhandily areas, or in like Houston
or Miami. You know, we're getting out of dodge. So
some people are doing that, but it definitely doesn't seem like,
you know, people are taking it seriously enough yet.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
What's nuts, though, is if you go to Miami today,
their skyline is covered with construction cranes. They cannot build
skyscrapers for housing fast enough because so many people are
still moving to Miami. And I say we take a
break and come back and talk about what's going to
(28:12):
happen to cities in the US as far as climate
migration is concerned. Okay, Chuck, So I name checked Miami
(28:47):
before the break, and that is a really good example
of a city that is kind of up in the
air for how much climate migration is going to affect it.
Is it going to get so bad there that they're
just gonna have to abandon Miami and it'll look like
a reverse the day after tomorrow, but with heat and
(29:09):
seawater rather than everything being frozen, which, by.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
The way, I saw that the other day for the
first time.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
No, it's actually one of my favorite movies, it turns out,
because every single time it's on, I will just sit
there and watch it.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Oh did I see that? I think I might have
seen that all the way through back when it came out,
but that was it.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah. I hesitate to use the word good because it's great,
but it's yeah, I just like it. It's one of those. Really.
It's like Zodiac. I can watch Zodiac anytime it comes on,
Like I might not search it out, but I'll just
sit there and watch it if it's you know, presented
to me somehow.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
No, I'm the same way. There's something about Zodiac that
is just endlessly watchable to me.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, for sure. But the day after tomorrow's like that
for me.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Okay, well you know what, I should check it out again. Oh,
and I think I have a good reason to coming
up canted.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, that's actually what triggered that idea. Yeah, okay, you
and me just talking about something that only you and
I know about.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I know, you know. I have a couple of stats
as far as the United States goes. This is at
this point already here in twenty twenty five, two or
three million Americans leave their homes every year, every single year,
two to three million due to natural disasters that happened floods, earthquakes, fires, hurricanes,
(30:29):
all the stuff that happens here. I don't you know
the volcanoes.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That's not the one, that's not the ones. Well there's
Mount Saint Helens that was a big deal.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, true, But generally in the lower forty
eight we don't have volcanoes.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Right, So that two to three million number, those are
people who move permanently, right. That's not just people who
like leave and then come back.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
No, no, no, those are most of those people do return.
But over the past couple of decades, about three million
people have moved just to avoid flooding, which is a
long period of time. But those are people that are
just like, yeah, it just this place floods. I mean,
I remember after Katrina. I feel like Atlanta got a
pretty decent amount of displaced New Orleans residents that stayed here.
(31:15):
I have evidence by going to Falcons.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Games, right, So did Houston too.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, so that's a great example of that kind of
thing happening. And like, I'm sure a lot of them
went back when it was clear that New Orleans was
going to be rebuilt and revitalized and get back to normal,
but a lot of them stayed. I'm sure a lot
of them are, Like, things don't flood quite as much
here in Atlanta, so I'm gonna just kind of stay here.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yeah, in Atlanta. I mean, New Orleans is certainly such
a singular unique city in America culturally, like maybe more
so than almost any city I've been to. So Atlanta
is not that, but it's another big city in the
South that I think is at least relatable to somebody
from New Orleans in some ways.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
For sure. Yeah, there's like ninety eight percent less brass
bands marching around, but you know, there's still a certain
amount of like Southern affinity between the two cities.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Right, Yeah, for like big cities.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So sea level rise is going to affect the US,
but I didn't know this. There's like, you know, they
talk about sea level rise, you know, being zero point
one millimeter a year or something like that, or they're
predicting that's the global average. Sea level rises in different
places at different rates, and it can be so local
that apparently the eastern seaboard of the United States is
(32:34):
that sea level is rising faster than the West coast.
It can be that local. And the reason why is
there's something called post glacial rebound where the top part
of the Eastern Seaboard, like New York, all that area
was pressed down by a glacier, and after the glacier
retreated ten thousand or so years ago, that part of
(32:58):
the land is still moving up. It's coming back, it's rebounding,
but at the same time that's kind of pushing down
like a seesaw the southern part of the Eastern seaboard.
So that's actually the sea levels are rising faster there
than even in the northern part of the Eastern Seaboard.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
It's crazy, yeah, and you know that's just sea level rise.
And this isn't a AM reticent to do episodes sometimes
where we're just like, you know, slinging fear and statistics, right,
but it's sort of the reality right now. Wild fire
threat has just gotten worse, especially if you're talking about
(33:34):
Nevada and Oregon, places that maybe didn't see the most
wildfire in the past. And it's not just Miami as
far as sea level rise, like New York and Boston.
I mean, New York has seen flooding in you know,
the not too distant past, where we never used to
see things like that happening there.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I saw that some of the communities, the houses along
Jamaica Bay, which I guess is Queens, right, Yeah, they
flood every time there's a high tide, there's a full moon,
like real blood. Their entire basement just totally flooded, and
it's starting to happen every single time there's a full
moon at high tide. So yeah, I was reading like
they're on the forefront of talking about climate migration in
(34:16):
the US.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Well. The other thing too, that we've mentioned earlier, we
haven't talked so much since then, is this not necessarily
a climate event or some natural disaster either to cause
climate migration. It's like farmers, if they can't farm there
anymore and their livelihood is gone, they might move and
across the south and Southwest, especially in Texas, the projections
(34:40):
for corn and soy are just falling, falling, falling, So
you're going to be able to grow that easier in
other parts of the country. So that's a bit of
a silver lining is things you know, change and shift,
but those are going to eventually be climate migrants, those
farmers there.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah, And so it seems like the projection that twenty
fifty twenty seventy, the current climate that spreads across the
United States is going to shift northward by a few states,
and those states that are currently hot right now but
still you know, kind of nice, like Florida coastal Georgia,
they're going to potentially become uninhabitable just because it's going
(35:21):
to be so hot. So it turns out I was
right about the Middle East and North America becoming so
hot that it can be uninhabitable. And apparently that's due
to what's called the wet bulb temperature, which is a
mind boggling formula that barely anyone on the Internet can explain.
And I can't throw sling arrows because I can't really
(35:41):
explain it either. But essentially it's the temperature where your
body will no longer be able to cool itself, and
so being outside in the sun just standing there is
actually life threatening. They're saying that it's going to become
the norm for say, like Florida and so in Georgia
to hit those temperatures, and so the people are just
(36:03):
gonna have to move because you wouldn't be able to
leave your house and even go outside.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Do you remember when we were tasked with doing a
panel at a podcast movement that's the name of the
industry conference, I guess, yeah con Yeah, but it's like
an industry conference. And we were supposed to speak in
like ten minutes on stage and someone and a fire
(36:29):
alarm or something went out. Oh yeah, and they made
us go outside. And it was two minutes in the
Orlando summer heat after it had stopped raining when it
was afternoon. Florida rains right everywhere on elsewhere on Earth.
That cools things down, but it makes things hotter in
central Florida. Yeah, and we went outside and had to
stand out there for like twenty minutes before they let
(36:50):
us back in. And dude, I'm a hot, sweaty person anyway,
I have never sweated that much that fast in my life. Yeah,
I was dying and they were like, all right, back
in everybody and hop on stage right.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I remember that I was pretty sweaty too.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Oh man, I was in bad shape. It was not good.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Just wait till twenty seventy pounds.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I now you just melt podcast movement twenty seventy.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Right right here we are. So the US is actually
a good example of people not freaking out. Some people
freaking out, but it seems mostly like it's the media
just kind of poking and goosing everybody that Among scholars
who study this, they're not particularly freaked out. They're like, yes,
some people are going to have to move. Yes, it's
(37:37):
going to really start to pick up eventually, but there
will also be mitigation efforts that we can do. Like
we're Miami's just too valuable to just go away, So
they're going to figure out how to build sea walls,
protect Miami and make sure that it's aquafer doesn't get
salinated in ruin. Like the people will just pump money
(38:00):
into Miami, the US government will, Florida will. But if
you go like a little north, you know who's to
say that Delray Beach or Vero Beach is going to
be around still at that time. Right, cities will be protected,
but the smaller towns in between the major cities on
the coast, there's not going to be any money for them,
(38:22):
So those people are going to have to move.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, And I mean that kind of puts things squarely
in the middle of the policy debates we're hearing more
and more, which is how much do we put into
places that we think are increasingly unlivable in the future.
This is something I did not know. I'm glad Livia
dug this up. But FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency,
has been buying up properties that are prone to this,
(38:48):
that are just flooding time and time again, and they're
turning this land into wetland and trying to do something
about it. And you know, there are various states that
are saying, like, hey, you know, it's getting harder and
harder to get your house insured against fire. We used
to subsidize these insurance companies. Now we're not doing that.
I have friends in California, like, if you buy a
(39:10):
house in certain parts of California, so sometimes you cannot
even get insurance anymore.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Right. The same is true in parts of Florida too.
It's really becoming a big problem to even get insurance rather,
let alone like being able to afford an insurance policy.
And as that happens, as it becomes more and more
apparent that if you move to Florida or you move
to California, there's this huge additional expense or potentially you
(39:35):
might not be able to have home insurance. Like that's
going to affect those markets, and that in and of
itself is going to keep people from migrating there. And
it's going to also that's what will trigger mass migrations
from Florida from California because people are going to start
panicking about their real estate values just plummeting. Yeah, a
(39:57):
lot of people will get out.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
People of me, we'll get out.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, And that's a really important point. It doesn't matter
what country you're talking about, whether it's Global North, global South,
doesn't matter. The ability to migrate is typically something reserved
for the more well.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Off groups or to migrate successfully.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Right, Okay, great, The poorest, the most vulnerable people in
no matter whatever country you're talking about, those are the
ones who are at the greatest risk of just getting
left behind. They don't have the money to move. They don't.
They can't sell their house now because no one wants
to buy it because it's basically valueless, and they're stuck
(40:40):
in this place that everyone else who could migrated out of.
That is going to be a really big thing to
watch for. Those people are going to need help. They're
human beings. They didn't ask for this, That's just how
the dice landed. So they deserve to be helped again,
just because they're humans, just because they're Americans, just because
(41:00):
they're Zimbabweans, it doesn't matter. That's going to be something
to really pay attention to down the road.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Boy, what kind of world would we be in, my friend,
if the qualification for aid to others was fellow human
and not drawn by boundaries and ideologies.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I hope that that's I mean, my hope is that
someday we'll hit that point. I don't know if we'll
still be alive or not, but I do hope that.
I do think people will get there if we survive
as species.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
I mean, plenty of great organizations have been doing that
since the jump, but I'm talking about major governments in
the world looking at other humans as you know, other humans.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Or even societies too, you know, I mean, yeah, yeah,
I mean that's just everywhere in the world, there's so
many pockets of just conflict and issues and hatred of
people for ultimately like arbitrary reasons. The idea of yeah,
getting to that point, Chuck, it's just it's titillating to me.
(42:04):
I'm titillated right now. I think that's it for now. Huh,
it's got to be Well, we'll revisit this in twenty fifty.
All right, all right, Well, since Chuck agreed to revisiting
this episode in twenty fifty, everybody, that means it's time
for a listener mail.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Follow up from a backyard chicken farmer or about egg colors. Hey,
I've listened to you goofballs for years. So much love
to you and your gang. Yes, please support your local
farmers with their truly humanly raised eggs, costing in many
cases lessen store bought. Like Chuck said, you're getting an
amazing deal for higher quality eggs. Number two, guys. The
(42:44):
waxy coating is called a bloom. It's a naturally produced
coating which is not hard or thick, that is placed
as a part of the laying process to protect the
egg contents from bacteria. I believe Josh said.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
That comes off easily with just a little bit of dawn.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Th'e Please do not use dish soap to wash your eggs.
Oh yeah, while eggshells are strong, they're not inpermeable. Eggs
need to be washed with just water or water and
an egg safe cleaner at a temperature about twenty degrees higher, right,
but no more than that, because you can cook the
egg on the inside.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Oh that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Twenty degrees higher than the temperature of the egg interior.
Washing an egg at too high will potentially cook it.
Wash it a temperature lower than the shell contents, and
the permeable nature of the shell will actually absorb the
exterior contents. So you're eating whatever soap that you are using.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Well, not dawn, it says on the label Eggs Safe Cleaner.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
This knowledge is gained from keeping my own backyard flock
for over a decade, and that is from the wonderful Meg.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Thanks a lot, Meg, that was a top notch email.
We appreciate it, and thank you for saving everybody who's
about to wash their eggs with dish soap. Under my suggestion,
if you want to be like Meg and get in
touch with this and be like, oh no, no, no, here's
what you really should do. We love those kind of emails.
You can send it off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio
(44:04):
dot com.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Josh Clark
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