April 3, 2025 • 52 mins
The Pinkertons became the most famous detective company in the U.S. But were they noble or notorious? We get to the bottom of it all in today's episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. So I'm Josh, and
there's Chuck and there's Jerry and this is stuff you
should know. You we're keeping an eye on you, sucker.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Did I throw you off when I'm pre recording.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
No, I'm always expecting anything from you.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We do our usual countdown everyone so we can sink sound,
and you do that. Here's a little how the sausage
is made. You do that by a counting down and
then each of us clapping so you have a spike
in the audio wave file that the engineers and editors
can align, so we match up right, and I clapped,
But this time I also said schlamiel, hoping you would say, oh.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You set me up. Huh, I'm sorry here, let me
say it now, Shla masel.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Okay, are you ready to get on with our sausage party?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Gross? Yeah, sure, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That was nice of you to kind of give that
behind the scenes tour to everybody. Chuck, Yeah, you know,
that's why everyone likes you.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
More trade secrets. That's not true. So I've been on Reddit.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Whatever. Everybody likes you, including me, especially me. At any rate.
So we're talking today about the Pinkerton Detective Agency, and
this one strikes me as odd that we have waited
this long seventeen years to finally talk about them. Yeah,
and uh, because they're just so legendary. You know, like
everybody knows what the Pinkertons are, and if you don't,
(01:39):
I'm not taking that back, because everyone else knows what
the Pinkertons are.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency technically was the name
of it, but they were generally called the Pinkertons, led
by Alan Pinkerton, and they're you know, what they're known
for is being one of the first or perhaps the first,
and I say private detective agency, but not like we
think of pi's.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Like not Sam Spade stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
No, no, no, just a detective agency that's privatized like
police kind of detective work, right, And you know, they
did a lot of stuff, including, as we'll see, busting
up bank robbers and then later busting up unions.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah. It took a dark turn for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, but they got their their start doing you know,
God's work by working in the Abolitionist.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Movie, by helping to free enslave people.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah. Yeah, that's one thing. So there's a lot of
stuff you'll find when you dig into the history of
the Pinkerton Detective Agency. It depends on who you're reading.
Either they were pretty great and did some really great work,
or they were evil from the start. And then apparently
also one of the things that complicates it is Alan
(02:54):
Pinkerton was known to kind of hype his own company,
hype his own exploits. Yeah, and some people interpret that
as like personal myth making, and whether that's correct or not.
A lot of historians have delved into and I think
the answer generally is it's a case by case thing,
whether it's actually true, whether it actually happened quite that way.
(03:15):
But for the most part, from what I saw from
researching this is generally most of the stuff can be
accepted at surface level. For the most part, it's not like,
if you buy into this story that we're about to
tell you yeah, yeah, that you're just being totally misled.
So for the most part, just relax is what I'm trying.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, so we'll go back in time and hoping the
way back machine to witness the bird.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
It's eighteen nineteen in Scotland, so it's not a pretty
sight no giving birth back then, but little Alan Pinkerton
is born in Scotland. He is the son of a
police sergeant, so you know, law enforcement was in his
family roots. And he went to the United States in
eighteen forty two at the age of twenty three. And
(04:09):
we should kind of mention just one thing he was
involved in early on in Scotland before he left was
something called the Chartist movement, which was we're not going
to get super into it, but it was basically a
movement of the working class over there that tried One
of the main things they tried to do is extend
voting rights to all men, non landowners, that is.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Right, yeah, and election of parliamentary members. That kind of
stuff is basically democratic reform in England. And at the
time this was considered radical politics.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And Alan Pinkerton actually fled the country with his family
because the fuzz was looking for him, essentially, and they
landed in the Chicago area Dundee, Illinois, appropriately enough. Yeah,
and he decided that he would become a cooper, yeah,
which is somebody who makes barrels. And I guess he
was a pretty decent barrel maker because he did it
(05:00):
for a little while.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, they it's a trade he learned in Scotland. So
he opened up that Cooper Ridge and Dundee, like you said,
And a fortuitous incident happened as a cooper when he
was on apparently this sort of abandoned or maybe just
not claimed land cutting wood looking for wood for barrels,
and he discovered a hideout of some counterfeitters. He rustled
(05:26):
up a posse, got some citizens together and captured them,
and for his efforts got a lot of local notoriety.
And they said, hey, how about you become deputy sheriff
here in Caine County, Illinois. And this was in eighteen
forty six, and he said, well, I guess dad was
a copper and so maybe I should be too, or
a quasi copper at least.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah. This was actually before Chicago had an established police force. Yeah,
and it was a big deal to be a cop.
And if you were a cop, they also called them
watchmen because in a lot of cases that's what it
amounted to, like these men would not go into the
highest crime areas and they would avoid the most dangerous criminals.
And there were just a few handfuls of them, but
(06:10):
Pinkerton made a name for himself very quickly as somebody
who had just like a sixth sense for just knowing
when somebody was up to no good and following them
and seeing what they were up to, for being fearless. Yeah,
and for not accepting bribes. He was as honest as
the day as long as far as bribery is concerned.
(06:32):
And that made him stand out. And he started kind
of moving up the ranks pretty quickly and moved from
Kinge County to Cook County, where he worked in the
assessor's office, protecting Steven Spielberg.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, I'm not sure I get the reference.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
From Blues Brothers. Remember, wasn't Steven Spielberg the Cook County
assessor eating the sandwich when they come to pay the taxes? Uh?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Frank Oz?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
No, Frank Oz was the the guy in the captain
property room.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Oh, with Spielberg in that too.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Okay, I'm pretty sure he was the assessor at the
Cook County Assessor's office.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I believe you. I don't.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I shamefully don't know Blues Brothers as well as clearly
you do.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So either, I'm like really just making this stuff up.
But we've had this conversation and we were fully on
board with Spielberg being an assessor. Oh you know me
and I mean this was like two weeks ago.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Okay, it wasn't two weeks ago. But we have had
this conversation. I know we have.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I've just turned fifty four, so things are slipping, all right,
I'll ease off.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, so that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Eventually he would also be a special agent for the
US Post Office, and finally in eighteen fifty he started
the detective agency, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. Apparently was
the first detective. He was named the first detective in Chicago,
I think previous to this at just thirty one years old.
(07:58):
And from the beginning from eighteen fifty till the end
of emancipation, Like I mentioned from the outset, he worked
to assist the escape and freeing of enslaved people. I
think he even had a stop, like a volunteer to
stop on the underground railroad.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so there was one. He apparently was bosom friends
with John Brown. As he put it, he had a
real chance to coin the term bosom buddies, but he
didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Friends. Yeah, the ring does it.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No, it really doesn't. But John Brown, the white abolitionist
gorilla essentially made a raid on a few farms in
Missouri and ended up freeing eleven enslaved people and leading
them to Canada. And one of the stops was with
Alan Pinkerton in Chicago, and Pinkerton by this time was
(08:48):
wealthy enough that he paid for I guess, the train
ride from Chicago onto Detroit for everybody who John Brown
had busted out. So he definitely was an abolitionist, and
from what I read was like from the moment he
landed in the United States, he was an abolitionist. This
wasn't like him pumping up his image years later.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So a lot of the other work they were doing,
they were doing other, you know work as an agency
besides working in the in the emancipayer, I guess, the
abolitionist movement. But this was you know, again in and
around Chicago that didn't have a real police department at
the time, and they didn't exactly work as cops though.
It was sort of this weird hybrid of a thing
(09:32):
like they were.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
It wasn't like.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Police, it wasn't like a private detective agency. But they
also weren't like full on cops. It was kind of
hard to define at the time.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, I think one of the big distinction was is
they weren't out there like actively seeking crime as part
of the public good. They were hired to find like
specific things, specific criminals, or to prevent specific crimes by
corporations typically, And one of the early employers or clients
I guess were the railroads because at the time, people
(10:07):
would steal from railroads left and right. There were just
so many goods going across the United States. It was
just too tempting, and they started I think the first railroad, possibly,
if not one of the first, was the Illinois Central Railroad,
and they worked security and did detective work for this railroad.
And this would be a significant client for Pinkerton to
(10:31):
land throughout the rest of his life because the corporate
attorney for the Illinois Central Railroad at the time was
Abraham Lincoln and the president of the railroad was William McClellan.
And when you put those two together, you have some
high powered Civil War people on the Union side, and
as we'll see, Alan Pinkerton join them in the Civil War.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, if you've ever seen there weren't a lot of
photographs back then, but there's a very famous photograph of
Lincoln at Antietam.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Have you ever seen this one?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah? I was looking at it today.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So that's Pinkerton on the left. He's with two dudes
standing in front of that canvas tent. And that's Pinkerton
on the left and Major General John mclarenand on the
right of Lincoln, who always just not forget. But anytime
you see a photo like that where you and there
aren't many where you see like full size the full
sized Lincoln doll, right, yeah, or cardboard cutout. He's just
(11:24):
impossibly tall for back then. And then that stove pipe
hat just adds to it obviously. But I don't know
if he wore that hat to further imitant intimidate people,
but he was just such a tall, lanky guy.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
It's just odd looking for that time period.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
For sure. I have trouble anytime I say stovepipe hat
not saying stove top hat.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Instead of stove top stuff. Did you eat that stuff?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, we never got to eat that stuff. My mom
didn't buy that stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, we ate that stuff, for sure. We ate all
sorts of weird stuff like that, just.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Like dehydrated bread crumbs.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yes, but very tasty.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
With herbs and stuff. M And what do you do?
You just mix it with some or put it on
a casserole topper.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
You put it in a pot with some weight, you
boil a little water, and then you add it to
the water, soaks up the water, and then you add
like ten sticks of butter, which is really what drives
the whole thing home. There you go, and then yeah,
you put it in your mouth directly from the pot. Typically.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
All right, well, this episode is clearly brought to you
by stovetop stuffing instead of potatoes.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Hey, one other thing too. While we're on a tangent.
I mentioned Sam Spade earlier. I cannot recommend enough the
limited series Monsieur Spade. It's on Netflix, starring Clive Owen.
Have you seen it?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I have not.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
God, it's so good. But at the same time, I've
never seen such a tightly constructed show just come totally
off the rails in like.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
The last hour in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean, ultimately compared to the rest of the shows,
it's bad, but it's almost like they forgot that they
had to wrap it up and they just shot a
scene and that was it, and it was like so
totally improbable and just stood out so far from the
rest of the series that you're just like, what, But
luckily the rest of the series is so great it
doesn't really damage it at all.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Oh, well, you led me down the right path with
black doves, so I'll give it a shot.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I'm really glad you guys liked that. Did you finish it?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, it's good that one fell apart at the end too.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
You think, m huh, I liked it, man, you just
don't like things ending.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe not all.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Right, back to who are we talking about here, Pinkerton,
not stovepipe or stuffing. So like I said, he was,
or like you said, I guess he was buddies with
Lincoln pre Civil War and had gotten to know what
was this.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Name, William McClelland who would become the general that's right,
the head of the Union.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Forces, that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So that leads us to a story, a pretty major
story story early on, I guess it's not that early on.
It's about eleven years into the Detective Agency. But Pinkerton
learned of an assassination plot against President elect Lincoln at
the time, and there was a barber in Baltimore from Corsica.
His name was a Cipriano FADENDINEI, and he wanted to
(14:32):
kill Abraham Lincoln when he was coming through Baltimore. When
Lincoln was on his way to Washington and Pinkerton, you know,
found out about this and was like, you're not going
to kill my buddy.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
I'm going to thwart your plan.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, he did. This was apparently like part of a
general plan to prevent Lincoln from making it to his
inauguration in Washington. Right, just kill him in Baltimore, right, So,
as Lincoln got told Baltimore, they enacted a plan where
he was taken off of the train at a stop
(15:06):
I think like Harrisburg or something right before Baltimore, and
he was disguised and he basically played the brother of
a woman named Kate Warren, who was a detective who
will talk about in a second, and she escorted him
on another train through Baltimore that went through at night,
(15:27):
again in disguise. No one knew who he was. And
one of the things that kind of came out of
the story that was so significant was that Kate Warren
stayed up all night and watched over Abraham Lincoln on
this train ride to Washington, d C. And that kind
of coined this term or this slogan that they adopted,
we never sleep and led to the logo which was
(15:49):
this open eye, like the all seeing eye that's watching you,
that never sleep yepes.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And that eventually led to the just the term private eyes.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I imagine Lincoln was a pretty hard guy to disguise
now that I think about his height, that mustacheless beard
and that hat, like they're probably like, take off the
hat to begin with the first, get that hat off your.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Head, right, get that stove top hat off.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
And they got a sharpie.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
They drew on a mustache and then they they probably
put him if they would have been smart, they would
have put him like in a wheelchair or something, which
they made.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I saw that he was. I guess the term that
you would use today is like he posed as a
handicap brother to Kate Warren.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Oh there you go, oh and told him to lower
his voice.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Right. It was a very good cher.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
It was very.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Shocking still when everyone saw Lincoln and Daniel Day Lewis
came out like this.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, I know it was quite a choice, and only
Daniel day Lewis would have been allowed to do that too, totally.
Anybody else the director had been like, what are you
doing exactly?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
You don't question him. So you mentioned Kate Warren? Is
it Warren and not Warny?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I think it's Warren?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Okay, Wrny.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
She's very notable too, though, aside from just assisting in
this plot to save Lincoln or I guess action to
save Lincoln against the plot.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
She was a.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Detective like Pinkerton in a very forward thinking sort of way.
In eighteen fifty six, hired her after she convinced him like, hey,
you get you know, there are things that women can do,
places we can infiltrate information, we can get in ways
that men cannot. And he saw the value in that
hired her, and then I think, but four years later
(17:38):
made her head of the female detective Bureau. So they
kind of stamped up with some women to work in
these undercover roles.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, and it's really like this was unheard of. So
eighteen fifty six is when he hires her. The first
actual sworn policewoman that I could find in the United
States was a woman named Lola baldin eighty s Portland, Oregon. Yeah,
in nineteen oh eight. Okay, so, uh, forty four plus
(18:06):
eight is fifty four fifty two years, Yeah, fifty two
years ahead of schedule. Pinkerton hired a woman and made
her a very famous detective and just.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Super smart, you know, because she was right on the money.
I'm sure there were great assets to their cause.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
For sure. You want to take a break, Yeah, let's
do it.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Okay, all right, so we're back with more on Pinkerton.
(18:59):
The Silver War would begin, and Lincoln put George McClellan,
who we previously mentioned as someone who knew Pinkerton through
the railroad business, put him in charge of the Army
of the Potomac, and he said, hey, Pinkerton does pretty
good work. I'm going to bring this guy in as
sort of a head spy. We'll call it like a
secret service division. And he worked under Allan Pinkerton, that is,
(19:22):
worked under the code name Major E. J. Allen, and
was pretty good at rooting out spies, but not so
good at intelligent gathering and interpretation.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
No, he rooted out a spir ring led by a
woman named Rose O'Neil greenhow who was a Southerner but
was still like the toast of Washington D c. Society,
And she was really running a very sophisticated and very
developed spirring for the Confederacy, and he found her out,
busted everybody. It was a big deal. But with estimating
(19:55):
troop strength, no, he may have single handedly added years
onto the Civil War when he told McClellan. General McClellan
that he estimated the Confederates had between I think one
hundred or two hundred thousand troops.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, I saw two hundred.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, So at the time Robert E. Lee had forty
thousand to forty five thousand troops, so he grossly overestimated it,
and McClellan had something like seventy six thousand troops, so
they could have very easily overwhelmed the Confederacy early on,
had Pinkerton not overestimated the troops and had I also
(20:36):
saw McClellan didn't vet that information at all. He just
took it on face. And by the way, all of
you Civil War buffs, if you can go back and
unsend your emails, it's not William McClellan, it's George B. McClellan.
I'm sorry, I misspoke.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Oh I think I said William too, didn't I? Or
did I?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I led you down the wrong pain.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So Pinkerton would eventually leave his role in military intelligence.
I think this was in eighteen sixty two after McClellan,
who had hired him, was demoted. Essentially he lost his
whatever not real huh position. Yeah, I guess he lost
his positions as rank leader or whatever terms not going
(21:22):
to be emailed by civil war buffs at all. And
then he said, all right, let me go back. You know,
he still had his private detective agency, so let me
go back to doing that. And I guess we can
talk a little bit about some of the other innovations,
you know, aside from hiring women to work as infiltrators
and moles. He and I believe we've talked about this
(21:44):
in one of our crime episodes.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yes, did we do one on mug shots or just
I think it came up to the criminal databases maybe.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, Alfonse Bertillon or Berrol on He in the I think,
like the eighteen forties came up with the idea of
mug shots fingerprints using like head measurements to Yeah, basically
create a database of criminals so that they couldn't pose
his other people. And I guess that Pinkerton heard about
(22:13):
this and brought it to the United States.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, but when he brought it to the United States,
he wanted to sort of codify it, I guess, and
make it a more usable system and standardize everything. So
he you know, made all the pictures the same size.
He essentially made little yearbooks. He made got handwriting samples,
and he would make these books and he would send
them out and they called it the Rogues Gallery, and
it was sort of the beginning of the you know,
(22:37):
the United States criminal database.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, and each picture had a senior superlative underneath this,
so there was like most likely to unnecessarily shoot someone
you're robbing in the knee.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, stuff like that. That's good.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I also saw that this was so sophisticated that it
wouldn't be until the FBI was formed that something like
a criminal database like this would be expanded upon.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Basically, did you get a senior superlative?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I did most most likely to talk about criminal databases?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Did I? In reality, I don't think so, no, because
my senior quote was leave me alone.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
We had fun ones and then real ones, like official ones,
and I got one of each.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh well, what were they I got? Actually?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
I got two of the unofficials. For the unofficials, I
got best style.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Oh nice, that's really saying something in high school, man.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I guess so I'm not sure how I won that one. Actually.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And then I got most fun on a Date, which
was very ironic because I literally dated one person my
senior year and I was just the good friend to
all the girls that I wanted to date.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Wow, I was that guy.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But then the official ones that were in the yearbook.
Best all round boy.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Jeez, man, I see you in a different light now.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Oh you know it's pretty. I still got my T shirt.
I'll wear it occasionally.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Best all around boy.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Best all round boy.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I think that's your new nickname.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
B A A R B B. Well, best all around technically.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Oh, I say all round, But then again I call
stove top hats well.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
So best best be a Barb? Right, yeah, all right,
just call me Barb from now on.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Okay, Barb. I have a beloved aunt named Barb.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Do I do too, or Emily does, so she's sort
of my aunt as well.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, you can claim her all right. So, uh, there's
another thing that that Pinkerton did to really kind of
help establish his his agency is like just nationally recognized
and also kind of heroes. They were considered heroes across
the United States because they went after bad guys and
(24:57):
they usually got their man. They were very person and dogged.
Sometimes they would pursue criminals for years. Yeah, like it
wasn't like, well, we tried for a month and we
gave up. Like they would just keep going until they
found the person. They would pursue them into Canada sometimes wow,
into Mexico and beyond. And I guess one of the
reasons why they were revered is because they had a
(25:20):
code of conduct that was like strictly implemented. It was
things like like we will take no bribes, which is
a big one at the time. Oh yeah, probably still
is now. Will never compromise with criminals. Yeah, we will
partner with local law enforcement when possible. Okay, this one
(25:41):
stood out to me. I thought this was kind of upstanding.
They wouldn't take divorce cases or any case that could
create a scandal for anybody.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, pretty stand up. They also turned down reward money,
and he paid his agents pretty well apparently, and this
is just sort of business nuts and bolts, but he
had a pledge to never raise fees without the client knowing,
like in other words, I'm not going to hand you
a bill at the end. That's not what we talked about, right,
And also would just keep all of his clients very
(26:12):
well informed. They had internal rules that were like I
think in the pamphlet the General Principles of Pinkerton's National
Detective Agency, they said things like the agent must be
of a high order of mind, must possess clear and honest,
comprehensive understanding, force.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Of will, vigor of body.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And you can't drink on the job unless you absolutely
have to as assumed assumingly some part of like some
mole situation where you're like, hey, do you want to
go to the bar with us?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Right, you better drink this rye whiskey or else. Well, know,
you're a Pinkerton man exactly. They also, unless you had
a direct order from your superior too, you weren't allowed
to use alcohol to get like confessions or anything out of.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Suspects someone's super drunk. Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Mean these are all pretty great like.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Codes of conduct in totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I did not see any stories of like rogue Pinkerton
agents or that this was all just you know, a whitewashing,
and they actually didn't behave like this at all. They
do seem to have been pretty upstanding. And then so
the other thing that really expanded the legend of the Pinkertons,
and probably in part of why we still understand or
know them today, is Alan Pinkerton wrote a bunch of books,
(27:30):
or at least published a series of books under his name,
that were like true crime detective stories.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
This would have been in the eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies,
I think, so this is like the dawn of detective stories.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I think they don't.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Remember when Poe wrote Murder in the Room Morgue. Was
that the first detective story.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
I don't know, but I mean it was. It was
early on in the going for sure.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
It was ahead of its time.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
One of the most famous ones was the Detective in
the Somnambula.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Right, Yes, And that is one in which he as
the character and Kate Warren as her character. They catch
a murderer. They go into cover, of course, and catch
a murderer and a bank robber using a Pinkerton agent
as always that posed as a ghost to get a confession.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah. I saw there was another one where Kate Warren
posed as a fortune teller to get a confession out
of somebody.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Oh that's pretty smart.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, but these are like the books that they're saying
like this, this is what we did. Yeah, And I mean, like,
if this was even remotely close, it must have been
thrilling to be a Pinkerton detective at this time, because
this is again when they were just a cause celeb
in America and did not have the blemish reputation that
they have today.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, and a book potentially being like a character in
a book would be, you know, back then a sort
of tantamount to like they made a TV show about
us or something.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, and we played like a semi fictional version of
ourselves or something like that.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
One of the other things they were known for, Chuck
was nabbing outlaws in the wild West, because as the
United States expanded westward and the frontier just kept going,
it was a while in raucous and lawless place you
might have a marshal. I know, we talked about the
Marshall Service serving as the law enforcement out west, but
(29:25):
there it was kind of far and fewed between. So
the Pinkertons filled the real need at the time. Because
one of the first things that developed after the Civil
War was train robberies.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, I mean you got these. Like you said earlier,
it's a pretty good take when you rob a train
and you know, you get them out in the middle
of nowhere, which is kind of the great. The great
thing about robbing trains, everybody, yeah, is you can just
you know, ride your horses up. You've seen all the
movies in the middle of nowhere where there's no one
around to help. But in this case, the Pinkertons are there.
(29:57):
One of the first gangs that they got the Reno Gang.
After the Civil War, they started robbing trains in Indiana
and Missouri and banks and other places, but not from Reno,
but they were the Renos John Frank Simeon and William Reno.
And in October eighteen sixty six, for instance, they robbed
(30:19):
the Ohio and Mississippi Express to the tune of fifteen
thousand dollars in eighteen sixty six money, which is a huge,
huge haul. Were arrested, but they posted bail and then
started robbing again kind of right away, trains and banks,
and so the Pinkertons were like where on the job.
I think the Adams Express company was like, we've had enough,
We got to hire these guys.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, in the two years that the Reno Gang was active,
they stole about a half a million dollars in eighteen
sixties money. Wow, that was a ton of cash. They
were very successful. So yeah, they definitely caught the attention
of the train companies. Adams Express hires the Pinkertons and
they start hunting down the Reno Gang. And this is
(31:02):
a good example of them just using dogged persistence over
and over and over again. They just kind of one
by one captured the gang members. The first was John Reno,
not Geen Renau from Twin Peaks.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I had that same joke.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
They got him first. He may have been the leader
as far as I know. They also caught a guy
named Charles Roseberry who was a member of the gang.
And I don't know if they were expecting this or not,
but the locals who were with them when they caught
Charles Rowberry strung him up and hung him right there
they when they caught him, and I didn't see, like
(31:42):
what the Pinkertons thought about this kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, I mean I think a lot of those guys
were lynched and hanged. And yeah, I don't know. I'm
not sure if that's a good question. Actually, if that
was I mean, obviously it wasn't his call, but after
he hands them over, but I wonder if he was, like,
I mean, how about a trial at least?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Right, this doesn't seem to jibe with the code of conduct.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I also saw they recovered about three hundred thousand dollars
in cash and at least one instant, So definitely got
your money's worth when you hired the Pinkertons to nab
wild West train robbers.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, I bet they weren't cheap though I tried to
find out kind of how much they were paid. But
if he was paying his agents well, which he supposedly did,
then I'm sure they were not a cheap hire.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
No, And then things kind of went pear shaped for
the Pinkertons. As far as I can tell, this was
the first time the Pinkerton's reputation took a real hit
with the James Gang Yeah, they went after the James Gang,
led by Frank and Jesse James. I didn't know this, Yeah,
but they were terrorists, Confederate terrorists during the Civil War
(32:48):
in Missouri, that's where they were from. And Missouri was
this powder keg that actually kind of helped kick off
the Civil War because I guess abolitionists and pro slavery
people came together to settle Missouri and they did not
get along. And during the Civil War one of the
things that James Gang did was murder Union supporters in Missouri. Yes,
(33:11):
not even on the front lines. These weren't even soldiers,
these were civilians. They were just running around killing and terrorizing.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
And you know, after the war, of course, they gained
further notoriety by robbing everything in sight, you know, trains, banks,
stage coaches, you name it. And Jesse sort of built
up this, oh what do you call it, like a
sort of a legendary status among the poor in working
class that he was some kind of a robin Hood type,
(33:40):
even though there's no indication that he was ever like
robbing to give to the poor, right, but people would
you know, hide him and take care of him and
stuff like that. For some reason, but at any rate,
in eighteen seventy four, the Pinkertons were hired to catch
these guys, Frank and Jesse, and they sent an agent
to infiltrate the gang.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
His name was Joseph.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Witcher, and he did a pretty good job until they
found out that he was an informant and he was murdered,
which kind of started the downhill tumble.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah. Alan Pinkerton took this quite personally. Oh yeah, there's
a quote from him saying that as far as capturing
Jesse and Frank James, there's no use talking. They must die. Yeah,
So if they were wanted dead or alive, he was
going to bring him in dead for sure. And in
eighteen seventy five, early on in the year, they went
to the James's family home in Missouri, and Jesse and
(34:35):
Frank James weren't home. They'd been tipped off that the
Pinkertons with a bunch of local pro union supporters were
going to be there to capture them, so they weren't there.
But apparently the Pinkertons and their assistants didn't know this.
Somebody the Pinkerton said this was a local that did this,
that they did not do this. Somebody threw a lantern
(34:56):
into the home I saw in the hopes of illuminating
things better. Well, the lantern exploded, Yeah, exactly. The lantern exploded,
killed their eight year old half brother Archie, and blew
their mom, Zerelda's arm off. So they've killed a young
boy and maimed an older woman, and the Pinkertons are
(35:18):
the ones who took the hit reputation wise.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, and after all that, you know, pr work, A
lot of that was undone because of this, basically, But
it's not like they've shut down or anything.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And didn't they go after some other gangs too?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah? Very famously. They were the ones that chased Butch
Cassidy and Sundance the Sundance Kid down to Bolivia. Bolivian
army killed them, and they were famous for catching and
summarily executing all the members of the Apple Dumpling Gang.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
All right, we'll take a break now.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I'm going to contemplate that joke, and we're going to
come back and talk about what the Pinkertons were kind
of known for from this point forward.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Right after this.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Okay, so after the Wild West kind of came and went,
they got into corporate affairs firmly on the side of
the corporation. At the time, there was a lot of
labor movements, a lot of workers write stuff going on,
and don't forget Alan Pinkerton had to flee the UK
(36:50):
because he was such a radical labor supporter. Now his
agency is the Premier Security Group and labor organization infiltrators.
This is what they started doing, and this is where
they're the bad name, the blemish on their name that's
still around today, really started to develop because they were
(37:14):
at this point do whatever corporations wanted them to do
as long as they paid them.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yeah, and you know what corporations generally wanted them to
do was bust up the unions. Was to infiltrate the
companies and bust up unions, which is what they ultimately
started doing for you know, a lot of money. It
started out as an employee testing service in eighteen fifty
five and sort of grew over.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
The next few years.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And initially it was like, hey, let's get some moles
in there and see if we can uncover like illegal activity,
people stealing from the company and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
But then it's just understandable, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
But then that sort of expanded, and I guess the
people hiring were like, Hey, since you're in there, why
don't you kind of let us know what's going on,
what they're talking about, and like if they like management discontented,
and if they're you know, most importantly, if they're starting
to organize and talk about forming a labor society, which
you know, of course would ultimately be a union.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yes. This became such a part of their job that
the Order of Railway Conductors started warning their members that
there's Pinkerton's undercover who are watching you, and not just
watching you to see if you're stealing, they're watching you
to see if you want to form a union. And
this was the I mean, this was a terrible direction
for them to start to go down because this was
(38:33):
such a militant time. I mean, there were like anarchists
running around like throwing bombs in the United States. There
were labor unions that soldiers were sometimes brought out to shoot.
I mean, it was a really rough time as far
as like labor and management goes, because there was just
this struggle to say, who owns the fruit of our labor? Yeah,
(38:57):
you who's paying for the raw materials or us who's
actually turning those raw materials into the end product. And
maybe it's not one or the other, but I guarantee
it's more than the share that you're giving us a
factory owner. And so this struggle became violent and many
many times. Again, like I said, the Pinkertons landed firmly
(39:18):
or started out firmly on the side of corporations that
they stayed there.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, we should probably highlight the Molly Maguire's that was
one of more famous cases. They were a secret society
in Ireland initially and then in eighteen sixties in Pennsylvania
kind of re emerged from Irish immigrants because they were
coal miners there and at the time they were facing
a lot of discrimination. The job conditions were not good,
(39:42):
working long hours, they were very dangerous, and they were
you know, a lot of times living in company housing,
paid in company script that they could only spend at
the company store. They were just completely folded into this
corporation as almost enslaved people in some way.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Ultimately they had their freedom, of course, but it was
they were owned by the company essentially. Finally, in the
eighteen sixties, supervisors started receiving these coffin notices basically from
the worker saying, hey were the molly mcguires, and coffin
notice means that your time on earth is nigh and
(40:23):
you're not going to be around very long. So the
writing was on the wall that things were about to
turn violent.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, And it did start to get violent. And I
saw that the molly mcguires started murdering and assassinating some
of the some of the members of the corporation, like Foreman,
who were the people they worked with the most directly
and who are the most brutal toward them. But I
also saw that this was in retaliation for members of
the molly mcguires being murdered first. Yeah, either way, it
(40:52):
turned violent pretty terribly. What the molly mcguires did not
know is that there was a Pinkerton man who they
knew as James McKenna, but whose real name was James McFarlane,
who had spent two years by now working under cover
and ingratiating himself with the mally mcguires, or even beyond
the mally McGuire's, just the Irish coal miners who worked
(41:14):
and lived in this area, so much so he became
the secretary of the local lodge of the Ancient Order
of Hiberians, an Irish Catholic fraternal organization. So he really
worked his way into it, and he got a lot
of intel on them, and ultimately turned state's evidence and
got twenty men executed almost exclusively on his testimony.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, for sure, on charges of murder, arson, and kidnapping.
Ten were hanged in eighteen seventy seven. Ten were then
hanged in eighteen seventy eight, I guess, and this is
one of the most like insider jobs of all time.
I think there was a historian, Harald Aaron who that
was one of the most astonishing, astounding, excuse me, surrenders
(42:04):
of sovereignty and American history, because what happened was Franklin Gowan,
who was the guy who ran the company who hired
the Pinkertons to begin with, he was the chief prosecutor.
So it was all this inside job. These guys were
arrested by a private police force, and then the coal
(42:26):
company's attorneys prosecuted them, and the only thing that the
state did was like, here, use his courtroom and use
our gallows or whatever, and other than that, it was
all just a private job to find and execute these guys.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, many of whom who were considered to have been innocent.
They were innocent men who were executed again almost exclusively
on James mcparlane, this Pinkerton man's testimony, and yeah, it
was just a total travesty from starting to finish. In Pennsylvania.
Did pardon one of the men, John Keho, in nineteen
(43:01):
seventy nine, about one hundred years too late for John Keyho,
but it was kind of a symbolic thing saying like, yeah,
we really screwed up and letting this company essentially form
their own court and trial and executions. Probably more famous though,
is the Pinkerton's role in the Homestead strike in Homestead,
(43:21):
Pennsylvania at one of the Carnegie Steel mills.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
So in eighteen ninety two there was a union contract
that expired for that steel company in Pennsylvania there in Homestead,
and Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie, a couple of
robber barons we've talked about in the past, said all right,
we're going to cut wages back. We're going to break
this union, which was the Amalgamated Association of Steel and
Iron Workers and Carnegie said, I'm out here. I'm going
(43:48):
to leave the country. Henry Clay Henry Clay Frick got
involved sort of doing the dirty work on the ground.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah, and he said, all right, I'm going to hire
the Pinkertons. We're not even negotiating.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I'm going to bring these guys in to essentially act
as guards to lock these people out.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah. And so three hundred Pinkertons showed up on July sixth,
eighteen ninety two. They were pulled down the river on
barges and they were all armed to the teeth with
Winchester rifles and cold forty five's and all the modern
guns you could hope for. And when they arrived, they
were met with I think two or three thousand homestead
(44:29):
not just steel workers, but neighbors, community members, just people
who were supporting the strikers.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Angry too.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, they were really mad, not just because they were
in the midst of the strike, but because this private
police force had shown up to intimidate them or possibly
kill them the way that they were armed. And so
a battle ensued, Like there's no other word for it.
It was a twelve or fifteen hour battle. Yeah, only
a dozen people died. But that's amazing to me. As
(44:59):
violent as this battle was, they tried to or I
should say, they pushed a flaming train car at the
barges to try to kill the Pinkertons. Like that was
just one thing that the strikers did. Like it was
really violent.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Yeah, I mean, it was shocking that only a dozen
people died. I guess it's a testament to how bad
of a shot they were. It really was collectively. Of course,
the workers, you know, they they surrendered. The Pinkertons did
because they were just so far outnumbered, even though most
of the I think most of the dozen were the
workers that died, but the Pinkertons knew that they were
(45:36):
vastly outnumbered, so they surrendered.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
But the workers lost.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Because he Henry Clay, frick Man, I have a hard time.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
With that one.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
You want to say, people, I know Henry Clay.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
People got eighty five hundred National Guard troops sent in
after the Pinkertons left, and of course, you know, they
broke the union and said we're going to decrease your wages,
We're going to increase how much you have to work,
and this just became sort of a cyclical thing that
was happening. The Pinkertons early on, they were pretty good
(46:06):
at infiltrating, but when it came to breaking these unions,
the federal government would come in with the troops and
do a far better job at doing so.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Yeah, because strikers typically recognized federal troops is more legitimate
than a private police force showing up, you know.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Yeah, and just more people with more arms.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah, they had gatling guns, like it's demonstrated at the
end of the Wild Bunch.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
You don't want to mess with those. So yeah, from
those of us, like looking back today, you might think, oh,
that's just what they did back then, which was messed up,
but that's just the norm. Not true. Congress actually investigated
this incident. They were like, that is pretty screwed up
that you hired the Pinkertons and brought in the National
Guard to essentially put this town under martial law. And
(46:50):
as a matter of fact, Congress urged states to pass
laws to make it so that corporations couldn't hire private
companies to break unions, and Ohio went so far as
to say the Pinkertons themselves are now illegal here.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true. So I mean that really changed
everything for the Pinkertons there as far as strike breaking goes.
It took a huge hit. Couldn't get a lot of
work after that, But they did go on. They did
anti union espionage work.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
This is something I never knew at all, was that
they they just they kept going. They were acquired in
nineteen ninety nine, Yeah, by Securitas, and I had no
idea that they went on that much further after Pinkerton's death,
after Alan Pickerton's death.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Yeah, they trade on the name still, for sure. Yeah.
It's a massive company I think, with like fifty thousand
employees and offices all over the world, but they still
use the Pinkerton name. Like you can hire Pinkerton for
corporate security. Apparently they'll ride along and container ships to
protect against pirates. Wow, they've served as guards at Marylyn
(48:00):
Rose funeral. Yeah, back in the sixties. I also saw
that same year they escorted the Mona Lisa from France
to the US.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Oh, which is you know, they could probably just do
that under an overcoat. That thing's pretty small.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
It is fairly small. And then one other thing where
they pop up and this made me wonder if this
is where this idea came from. Apparently they're bad guys
in the video game Red Dead Redemption two, which I
know for a fact that you've played.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
They very much are figured, very heavily into that storyline
if you play the story part of that.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Is that where you got the idea to do one
on them?
Speaker 1 (48:36):
No, because I haven't played that in a long time,
I'm not sure where I got it. It may have been,
I don't know. I'm not really sure. They also pigure
in a bunch of movies. Of course, they're in Deadwood.
They were in The Long Riders in the eighties, and
Friend of the Show Paul Schneider was in the Great
Great Movie from two thousand and seven, the Assassination of
(48:57):
Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, and they that
Pinkerton's figure pretty heavily in that movie too.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
That was a good movie. We should talk about the
death of Alan Pinkerton real quick, Chuck.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Yeah, it's pretty unusual.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
He died July first, eighteen eighty four, right before his
sixty fifth birthday. And as the story goes, he slipped
on a street in Chicago and bit his tongue something
which I did when I was a kid, had twelve
stitches across the center of my tongue back together when
I was like twelve. But I did not die, because
I'm still here. But Pinkerton died as a result of
(49:34):
this because it turned gangrenous.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
Yeah, he wouldn't go get it treated, and it just
kept getting worse, and that was it for him. Yeah,
he was put to rest near his wife. And very interestingly,
he also in his family plot, buried Kate Warren because
he so admired this the first female detective ever hired.
(49:57):
He so admired her in her work that he had
her buried with him. She was still alive and was
very unhappy about this, but he admired her that much.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
That's super cool. So she's there with him. Maybe I
guess some of his sons are there and his wife Joan.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Yes, wonderful.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Nice Chuck, you got anything else?
Speaker 3 (50:18):
I got nothing else.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That's it for the Pinkertons. Everybody at long last. And
since I said it long last, I just triggered listener mail.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
That's right. This is a little follow up on the
GPS episode.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Toward the end, I kind of poked fun at Garman
as being something that you know, like my mom uses
and not like a more modern system. But it turns
out Garment is still very popular because Deanna sent me
an email saying, Hey, a lot of cyclists use this stuff,
and I asked her why. I was like, oh, that's
super interesting. I said, do you know why they have
you know, they're used by cyclists, are still around in
(50:53):
that capacity, and she said, good question. I think there
are a couple of reasons why it's still the go
to for GPS. They've been around forever. They've been making
GPS for planes and boats since the late eighties, so
they had a really big head start and then number
two constant refinement. While others are just starting to develop
their products, Garman was already fine tuning theirs, and they
had a twenty year head start, so they packed in
(51:14):
a ton of extra features. For example, they introduced the
first bike radar system years before anyone else, and the
radar still blows the competition away. I even have a
buddy he works for Wahoo and he still uses a
Garman radar.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Very nice.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Also, Deanna says they built a lot of brand loyalty,
especially in the cycling world. Minievus still use them, even
though the quality has slipped just a bit in recent years.
We don't like using phones on our bikes because they're
bulky and drain the batteries really fast, and Garman just
feels more polished and reliable for our needs.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Who is that from?
Speaker 3 (51:48):
That was from Deanna?
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Deanna Garman. That's right, Thanks Deanna. We appreciate that. That
was a great email, and if you want to be
like Deanna, you can email us too. Send it off
to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. So I'm Josh, and
there's Chuck and there's Jerry and this is stuff you
should know. You we're keeping an eye on you, sucker.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Did I throw you off when I'm pre recording.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
No, I'm always expecting anything from you.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We do our usual countdown everyone so we can sink sound,
and you do that. Here's a little how the sausage
is made. You do that by a counting down and
then each of us clapping so you have a spike
in the audio wave file that the engineers and editors
can align, so we match up right, and I clapped,
But this time I also said schlamiel, hoping you would say, oh.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You set me up. Huh, I'm sorry here, let me
say it now, Shla masel.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Okay, are you ready to get on with our sausage party?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Gross? Yeah, sure, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That was nice of you to kind of give that
behind the scenes tour to everybody. Chuck, Yeah, you know,
that's why everyone likes you.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
More trade secrets. That's not true. So I've been on Reddit.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Whatever. Everybody likes you, including me, especially me. At any rate.
So we're talking today about the Pinkerton Detective Agency, and
this one strikes me as odd that we have waited
this long seventeen years to finally talk about them. Yeah,
and uh, because they're just so legendary. You know, like
everybody knows what the Pinkertons are, and if you don't,
(01:39):
I'm not taking that back, because everyone else knows what
the Pinkertons are.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency technically was the name
of it, but they were generally called the Pinkertons, led
by Alan Pinkerton, and they're you know, what they're known
for is being one of the first or perhaps the first,
and I say private detective agency, but not like we
think of pi's.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Like not Sam Spade stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
No, no, no, just a detective agency that's privatized like
police kind of detective work, right, And you know, they
did a lot of stuff, including, as we'll see, busting
up bank robbers and then later busting up unions.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah. It took a dark turn for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, but they got their their start doing you know,
God's work by working in the Abolitionist.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Movie, by helping to free enslave people.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah. Yeah, that's one thing. So there's a lot of
stuff you'll find when you dig into the history of
the Pinkerton Detective Agency. It depends on who you're reading.
Either they were pretty great and did some really great work,
or they were evil from the start. And then apparently
also one of the things that complicates it is Alan
(02:54):
Pinkerton was known to kind of hype his own company,
hype his own exploits. Yeah, and some people interpret that
as like personal myth making, and whether that's correct or not.
A lot of historians have delved into and I think
the answer generally is it's a case by case thing,
whether it's actually true, whether it actually happened quite that way.
(03:15):
But for the most part, from what I saw from
researching this is generally most of the stuff can be
accepted at surface level. For the most part, it's not like,
if you buy into this story that we're about to
tell you yeah, yeah, that you're just being totally misled.
So for the most part, just relax is what I'm trying.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, so we'll go back in time and hoping the
way back machine to witness the bird.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
It's eighteen nineteen in Scotland, so it's not a pretty
sight no giving birth back then, but little Alan Pinkerton
is born in Scotland. He is the son of a
police sergeant, so you know, law enforcement was in his
family roots. And he went to the United States in
eighteen forty two at the age of twenty three. And
(04:09):
we should kind of mention just one thing he was
involved in early on in Scotland before he left was
something called the Chartist movement, which was we're not going
to get super into it, but it was basically a
movement of the working class over there that tried One
of the main things they tried to do is extend
voting rights to all men, non landowners, that is.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Right, yeah, and election of parliamentary members. That kind of
stuff is basically democratic reform in England. And at the
time this was considered radical politics.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And Alan Pinkerton actually fled the country with his family
because the fuzz was looking for him, essentially, and they
landed in the Chicago area Dundee, Illinois, appropriately enough. Yeah,
and he decided that he would become a cooper, yeah,
which is somebody who makes barrels. And I guess he
was a pretty decent barrel maker because he did it
(05:00):
for a little while.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, they it's a trade he learned in Scotland. So
he opened up that Cooper Ridge and Dundee, like you said,
And a fortuitous incident happened as a cooper when he
was on apparently this sort of abandoned or maybe just
not claimed land cutting wood looking for wood for barrels,
and he discovered a hideout of some counterfeitters. He rustled
(05:26):
up a posse, got some citizens together and captured them,
and for his efforts got a lot of local notoriety.
And they said, hey, how about you become deputy sheriff
here in Caine County, Illinois. And this was in eighteen
forty six, and he said, well, I guess dad was
a copper and so maybe I should be too, or
a quasi copper at least.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah. This was actually before Chicago had an established police force. Yeah,
and it was a big deal to be a cop.
And if you were a cop, they also called them
watchmen because in a lot of cases that's what it
amounted to, like these men would not go into the
highest crime areas and they would avoid the most dangerous criminals.
And there were just a few handfuls of them, but
(06:10):
Pinkerton made a name for himself very quickly as somebody
who had just like a sixth sense for just knowing
when somebody was up to no good and following them
and seeing what they were up to, for being fearless. Yeah,
and for not accepting bribes. He was as honest as
the day as long as far as bribery is concerned.
(06:32):
And that made him stand out. And he started kind
of moving up the ranks pretty quickly and moved from
Kinge County to Cook County, where he worked in the
assessor's office, protecting Steven Spielberg.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, I'm not sure I get the reference.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
From Blues Brothers. Remember, wasn't Steven Spielberg the Cook County
assessor eating the sandwich when they come to pay the taxes? Uh?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Frank Oz?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
No, Frank Oz was the the guy in the captain
property room.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Oh, with Spielberg in that too.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Okay, I'm pretty sure he was the assessor at the
Cook County Assessor's office.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I believe you. I don't.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I shamefully don't know Blues Brothers as well as clearly
you do.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So either, I'm like really just making this stuff up.
But we've had this conversation and we were fully on
board with Spielberg being an assessor. Oh you know me
and I mean this was like two weeks ago.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Okay, it wasn't two weeks ago. But we have had
this conversation. I know we have.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I've just turned fifty four, so things are slipping, all right,
I'll ease off.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, so that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Eventually he would also be a special agent for the
US Post Office, and finally in eighteen fifty he started
the detective agency, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. Apparently was
the first detective. He was named the first detective in Chicago,
I think previous to this at just thirty one years old.
(07:58):
And from the beginning from eighteen fifty till the end
of emancipation, Like I mentioned from the outset, he worked
to assist the escape and freeing of enslaved people. I
think he even had a stop, like a volunteer to
stop on the underground railroad.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so there was one. He apparently was bosom friends
with John Brown. As he put it, he had a
real chance to coin the term bosom buddies, but he
didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Friends. Yeah, the ring does it.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No, it really doesn't. But John Brown, the white abolitionist
gorilla essentially made a raid on a few farms in
Missouri and ended up freeing eleven enslaved people and leading
them to Canada. And one of the stops was with
Alan Pinkerton in Chicago, and Pinkerton by this time was
(08:48):
wealthy enough that he paid for I guess, the train
ride from Chicago onto Detroit for everybody who John Brown
had busted out. So he definitely was an abolitionist, and
from what I read was like from the moment he
landed in the United States, he was an abolitionist. This
wasn't like him pumping up his image years later.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So a lot of the other work they were doing,
they were doing other, you know work as an agency
besides working in the in the emancipayer, I guess, the
abolitionist movement. But this was you know, again in and
around Chicago that didn't have a real police department at
the time, and they didn't exactly work as cops though.
It was sort of this weird hybrid of a thing
(09:32):
like they were.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
It wasn't like.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Police, it wasn't like a private detective agency. But they
also weren't like full on cops. It was kind of
hard to define at the time.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, I think one of the big distinction was is
they weren't out there like actively seeking crime as part
of the public good. They were hired to find like
specific things, specific criminals, or to prevent specific crimes by
corporations typically, And one of the early employers or clients
I guess were the railroads because at the time, people
(10:07):
would steal from railroads left and right. There were just
so many goods going across the United States. It was
just too tempting, and they started I think the first railroad, possibly,
if not one of the first, was the Illinois Central Railroad,
and they worked security and did detective work for this railroad.
And this would be a significant client for Pinkerton to
(10:31):
land throughout the rest of his life because the corporate
attorney for the Illinois Central Railroad at the time was
Abraham Lincoln and the president of the railroad was William McClellan.
And when you put those two together, you have some
high powered Civil War people on the Union side, and
as we'll see, Alan Pinkerton join them in the Civil War.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, if you've ever seen there weren't a lot of
photographs back then, but there's a very famous photograph of
Lincoln at Antietam.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Have you ever seen this one?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah? I was looking at it today.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So that's Pinkerton on the left. He's with two dudes
standing in front of that canvas tent. And that's Pinkerton
on the left and Major General John mclarenand on the
right of Lincoln, who always just not forget. But anytime
you see a photo like that where you and there
aren't many where you see like full size the full
sized Lincoln doll, right, yeah, or cardboard cutout. He's just
(11:24):
impossibly tall for back then. And then that stove pipe
hat just adds to it obviously. But I don't know
if he wore that hat to further imitant intimidate people,
but he was just such a tall, lanky guy.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
It's just odd looking for that time period.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
For sure. I have trouble anytime I say stovepipe hat
not saying stove top hat.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Instead of stove top stuff. Did you eat that stuff?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, we never got to eat that stuff. My mom
didn't buy that stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, we ate that stuff, for sure. We ate all
sorts of weird stuff like that, just.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Like dehydrated bread crumbs.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yes, but very tasty.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
With herbs and stuff. M And what do you do?
You just mix it with some or put it on
a casserole topper.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
You put it in a pot with some weight, you
boil a little water, and then you add it to
the water, soaks up the water, and then you add
like ten sticks of butter, which is really what drives
the whole thing home. There you go, and then yeah,
you put it in your mouth directly from the pot. Typically.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
All right, well, this episode is clearly brought to you
by stovetop stuffing instead of potatoes.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Hey, one other thing too. While we're on a tangent.
I mentioned Sam Spade earlier. I cannot recommend enough the
limited series Monsieur Spade. It's on Netflix, starring Clive Owen.
Have you seen it?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I have not.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
God, it's so good. But at the same time, I've
never seen such a tightly constructed show just come totally
off the rails in like.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
The last hour in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean, ultimately compared to the rest of the shows,
it's bad, but it's almost like they forgot that they
had to wrap it up and they just shot a
scene and that was it, and it was like so
totally improbable and just stood out so far from the
rest of the series that you're just like, what, But
luckily the rest of the series is so great it
doesn't really damage it at all.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Oh, well, you led me down the right path with
black doves, so I'll give it a shot.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I'm really glad you guys liked that. Did you finish it?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, it's good that one fell apart at the end too.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
You think, m huh, I liked it, man, you just
don't like things ending.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe not all.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Right, back to who are we talking about here, Pinkerton,
not stovepipe or stuffing. So like I said, he was,
or like you said, I guess he was buddies with
Lincoln pre Civil War and had gotten to know what
was this.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Name, William McClelland who would become the general that's right,
the head of the Union.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Forces, that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So that leads us to a story, a pretty major
story story early on, I guess it's not that early on.
It's about eleven years into the Detective Agency. But Pinkerton
learned of an assassination plot against President elect Lincoln at
the time, and there was a barber in Baltimore from Corsica.
His name was a Cipriano FADENDINEI, and he wanted to
(14:32):
kill Abraham Lincoln when he was coming through Baltimore. When
Lincoln was on his way to Washington and Pinkerton, you know,
found out about this and was like, you're not going
to kill my buddy.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
I'm going to thwart your plan.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, he did. This was apparently like part of a
general plan to prevent Lincoln from making it to his
inauguration in Washington. Right, just kill him in Baltimore, right, So,
as Lincoln got told Baltimore, they enacted a plan where
he was taken off of the train at a stop
(15:06):
I think like Harrisburg or something right before Baltimore, and
he was disguised and he basically played the brother of
a woman named Kate Warren, who was a detective who
will talk about in a second, and she escorted him
on another train through Baltimore that went through at night,
(15:27):
again in disguise. No one knew who he was. And
one of the things that kind of came out of
the story that was so significant was that Kate Warren
stayed up all night and watched over Abraham Lincoln on
this train ride to Washington, d C. And that kind
of coined this term or this slogan that they adopted,
we never sleep and led to the logo which was
(15:49):
this open eye, like the all seeing eye that's watching you,
that never sleep yepes.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And that eventually led to the just the term private eyes.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I imagine Lincoln was a pretty hard guy to disguise
now that I think about his height, that mustacheless beard
and that hat, like they're probably like, take off the
hat to begin with the first, get that hat off your.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Head, right, get that stove top hat off.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
And they got a sharpie.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
They drew on a mustache and then they they probably
put him if they would have been smart, they would
have put him like in a wheelchair or something, which
they made.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I saw that he was. I guess the term that
you would use today is like he posed as a
handicap brother to Kate Warren.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Oh there you go, oh and told him to lower
his voice.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Right. It was a very good cher.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
It was very.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Shocking still when everyone saw Lincoln and Daniel Day Lewis
came out like this.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, I know it was quite a choice, and only
Daniel day Lewis would have been allowed to do that too, totally.
Anybody else the director had been like, what are you
doing exactly?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
You don't question him. So you mentioned Kate Warren? Is
it Warren and not Warny?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I think it's Warren?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Okay, Wrny.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
She's very notable too, though, aside from just assisting in
this plot to save Lincoln or I guess action to
save Lincoln against the plot.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
She was a.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Detective like Pinkerton in a very forward thinking sort of way.
In eighteen fifty six, hired her after she convinced him like, hey,
you get you know, there are things that women can do,
places we can infiltrate information, we can get in ways
that men cannot. And he saw the value in that
hired her, and then I think, but four years later
(17:38):
made her head of the female detective Bureau. So they
kind of stamped up with some women to work in
these undercover roles.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, and it's really like this was unheard of. So
eighteen fifty six is when he hires her. The first
actual sworn policewoman that I could find in the United
States was a woman named Lola baldin eighty s Portland, Oregon. Yeah,
in nineteen oh eight. Okay, so, uh, forty four plus
(18:06):
eight is fifty four fifty two years, Yeah, fifty two
years ahead of schedule. Pinkerton hired a woman and made
her a very famous detective and just.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Super smart, you know, because she was right on the money.
I'm sure there were great assets to their cause.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
For sure. You want to take a break, Yeah, let's
do it.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Okay, all right, so we're back with more on Pinkerton.
(18:59):
The Silver War would begin, and Lincoln put George McClellan,
who we previously mentioned as someone who knew Pinkerton through
the railroad business, put him in charge of the Army
of the Potomac, and he said, hey, Pinkerton does pretty
good work. I'm going to bring this guy in as
sort of a head spy. We'll call it like a
secret service division. And he worked under Allan Pinkerton, that is,
(19:22):
worked under the code name Major E. J. Allen, and
was pretty good at rooting out spies, but not so
good at intelligent gathering and interpretation.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
No, he rooted out a spir ring led by a
woman named Rose O'Neil greenhow who was a Southerner but
was still like the toast of Washington D c. Society,
And she was really running a very sophisticated and very
developed spirring for the Confederacy, and he found her out,
busted everybody. It was a big deal. But with estimating
(19:55):
troop strength, no, he may have single handedly added years
onto the Civil War when he told McClellan. General McClellan
that he estimated the Confederates had between I think one
hundred or two hundred thousand troops.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, I saw two hundred.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, So at the time Robert E. Lee had forty
thousand to forty five thousand troops, so he grossly overestimated it,
and McClellan had something like seventy six thousand troops, so
they could have very easily overwhelmed the Confederacy early on,
had Pinkerton not overestimated the troops and had I also
(20:36):
saw McClellan didn't vet that information at all. He just
took it on face. And by the way, all of
you Civil War buffs, if you can go back and
unsend your emails, it's not William McClellan, it's George B. McClellan.
I'm sorry, I misspoke.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Oh I think I said William too, didn't I? Or
did I?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I led you down the wrong pain.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So Pinkerton would eventually leave his role in military intelligence.
I think this was in eighteen sixty two after McClellan,
who had hired him, was demoted. Essentially he lost his
whatever not real huh position. Yeah, I guess he lost
his positions as rank leader or whatever terms not going
(21:22):
to be emailed by civil war buffs at all. And
then he said, all right, let me go back. You know,
he still had his private detective agency, so let me
go back to doing that. And I guess we can
talk a little bit about some of the other innovations,
you know, aside from hiring women to work as infiltrators
and moles. He and I believe we've talked about this
(21:44):
in one of our crime episodes.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yes, did we do one on mug shots or just
I think it came up to the criminal databases maybe.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, Alfonse Bertillon or Berrol on He in the I think,
like the eighteen forties came up with the idea of
mug shots fingerprints using like head measurements to Yeah, basically
create a database of criminals so that they couldn't pose
his other people. And I guess that Pinkerton heard about
(22:13):
this and brought it to the United States.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, but when he brought it to the United States,
he wanted to sort of codify it, I guess, and
make it a more usable system and standardize everything. So
he you know, made all the pictures the same size.
He essentially made little yearbooks. He made got handwriting samples,
and he would make these books and he would send
them out and they called it the Rogues Gallery, and
it was sort of the beginning of the you know,
(22:37):
the United States criminal database.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, and each picture had a senior superlative underneath this,
so there was like most likely to unnecessarily shoot someone
you're robbing in the knee.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, stuff like that. That's good.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I also saw that this was so sophisticated that it
wouldn't be until the FBI was formed that something like
a criminal database like this would be expanded upon.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Basically, did you get a senior superlative?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I did most most likely to talk about criminal databases?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Did I? In reality, I don't think so, no, because
my senior quote was leave me alone.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
We had fun ones and then real ones, like official ones,
and I got one of each.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh well, what were they I got? Actually?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
I got two of the unofficials. For the unofficials, I
got best style.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Oh nice, that's really saying something in high school, man.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I guess so I'm not sure how I won that one. Actually.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And then I got most fun on a Date, which
was very ironic because I literally dated one person my
senior year and I was just the good friend to
all the girls that I wanted to date.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Wow, I was that guy.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
But then the official ones that were in the yearbook.
Best all round boy.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Jeez, man, I see you in a different light now.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Oh you know it's pretty. I still got my T shirt.
I'll wear it occasionally.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Best all around boy.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Best all round boy.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I think that's your new nickname.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
B A A R B B. Well, best all around technically.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Oh, I say all round, But then again I call
stove top hats well.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
So best best be a Barb? Right, yeah, all right,
just call me Barb from now on.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Okay, Barb. I have a beloved aunt named Barb.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Do I do too, or Emily does, so she's sort
of my aunt as well.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, you can claim her all right. So, uh, there's
another thing that that Pinkerton did to really kind of
help establish his his agency is like just nationally recognized
and also kind of heroes. They were considered heroes across
the United States because they went after bad guys and
(24:57):
they usually got their man. They were very person and dogged.
Sometimes they would pursue criminals for years. Yeah, like it
wasn't like, well, we tried for a month and we
gave up. Like they would just keep going until they
found the person. They would pursue them into Canada sometimes wow,
into Mexico and beyond. And I guess one of the
reasons why they were revered is because they had a
(25:20):
code of conduct that was like strictly implemented. It was
things like like we will take no bribes, which is
a big one at the time. Oh yeah, probably still
is now. Will never compromise with criminals. Yeah, we will
partner with local law enforcement when possible. Okay, this one
(25:41):
stood out to me. I thought this was kind of upstanding.
They wouldn't take divorce cases or any case that could
create a scandal for anybody.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, pretty stand up. They also turned down reward money,
and he paid his agents pretty well apparently, and this
is just sort of business nuts and bolts, but he
had a pledge to never raise fees without the client knowing,
like in other words, I'm not going to hand you
a bill at the end. That's not what we talked about, right,
And also would just keep all of his clients very
(26:12):
well informed. They had internal rules that were like I
think in the pamphlet the General Principles of Pinkerton's National
Detective Agency, they said things like the agent must be
of a high order of mind, must possess clear and honest,
comprehensive understanding, force.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Of will, vigor of body.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And you can't drink on the job unless you absolutely
have to as assumed assumingly some part of like some
mole situation where you're like, hey, do you want to
go to the bar with us?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Right, you better drink this rye whiskey or else. Well, know,
you're a Pinkerton man exactly. They also, unless you had
a direct order from your superior too, you weren't allowed
to use alcohol to get like confessions or anything out of.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Suspects someone's super drunk. Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Mean these are all pretty great like.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Codes of conduct in totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I did not see any stories of like rogue Pinkerton
agents or that this was all just you know, a whitewashing,
and they actually didn't behave like this at all. They
do seem to have been pretty upstanding. And then so
the other thing that really expanded the legend of the Pinkertons,
and probably in part of why we still understand or
know them today, is Alan Pinkerton wrote a bunch of books,
(27:30):
or at least published a series of books under his name,
that were like true crime detective stories.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
This would have been in the eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies,
I think, so this is like the dawn of detective stories.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I think they don't.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Remember when Poe wrote Murder in the Room Morgue. Was
that the first detective story.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
I don't know, but I mean it was. It was
early on in the going for sure.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
It was ahead of its time.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
One of the most famous ones was the Detective in
the Somnambula.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Right, Yes, And that is one in which he as
the character and Kate Warren as her character. They catch
a murderer. They go into cover, of course, and catch
a murderer and a bank robber using a Pinkerton agent
as always that posed as a ghost to get a confession.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah. I saw there was another one where Kate Warren
posed as a fortune teller to get a confession out
of somebody.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Oh that's pretty smart.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, but these are like the books that they're saying
like this, this is what we did. Yeah, And I mean, like,
if this was even remotely close, it must have been
thrilling to be a Pinkerton detective at this time, because
this is again when they were just a cause celeb
in America and did not have the blemish reputation that
they have today.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, and a book potentially being like a character in
a book would be, you know, back then a sort
of tantamount to like they made a TV show about
us or something.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, and we played like a semi fictional version of
ourselves or something like that.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
One of the other things they were known for, Chuck
was nabbing outlaws in the wild West, because as the
United States expanded westward and the frontier just kept going,
it was a while in raucous and lawless place you
might have a marshal. I know, we talked about the
Marshall Service serving as the law enforcement out west, but
(29:25):
there it was kind of far and fewed between. So
the Pinkertons filled the real need at the time. Because
one of the first things that developed after the Civil
War was train robberies.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, I mean you got these. Like you said earlier,
it's a pretty good take when you rob a train
and you know, you get them out in the middle
of nowhere, which is kind of the great. The great
thing about robbing trains, everybody, yeah, is you can just
you know, ride your horses up. You've seen all the
movies in the middle of nowhere where there's no one
around to help. But in this case, the Pinkertons are there.
(29:57):
One of the first gangs that they got the Reno Gang.
After the Civil War, they started robbing trains in Indiana
and Missouri and banks and other places, but not from Reno,
but they were the Renos John Frank Simeon and William Reno.
And in October eighteen sixty six, for instance, they robbed
(30:19):
the Ohio and Mississippi Express to the tune of fifteen
thousand dollars in eighteen sixty six money, which is a huge,
huge haul. Were arrested, but they posted bail and then
started robbing again kind of right away, trains and banks,
and so the Pinkertons were like where on the job.
I think the Adams Express company was like, we've had enough,
We got to hire these guys.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, in the two years that the Reno Gang was active,
they stole about a half a million dollars in eighteen
sixties money. Wow, that was a ton of cash. They
were very successful. So yeah, they definitely caught the attention
of the train companies. Adams Express hires the Pinkertons and
they start hunting down the Reno Gang. And this is
(31:02):
a good example of them just using dogged persistence over
and over and over again. They just kind of one
by one captured the gang members. The first was John Reno,
not Geen Renau from Twin Peaks.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I had that same joke.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
They got him first. He may have been the leader
as far as I know. They also caught a guy
named Charles Roseberry who was a member of the gang.
And I don't know if they were expecting this or not,
but the locals who were with them when they caught
Charles Rowberry strung him up and hung him right there
they when they caught him, and I didn't see, like
(31:42):
what the Pinkertons thought about this kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, I mean I think a lot of those guys
were lynched and hanged. And yeah, I don't know. I'm
not sure if that's a good question. Actually, if that
was I mean, obviously it wasn't his call, but after
he hands them over, but I wonder if he was, like,
I mean, how about a trial at least?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Right, this doesn't seem to jibe with the code of conduct.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I also saw they recovered about three hundred thousand dollars
in cash and at least one instant, So definitely got
your money's worth when you hired the Pinkertons to nab
wild West train robbers.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, I bet they weren't cheap though I tried to
find out kind of how much they were paid. But
if he was paying his agents well, which he supposedly did,
then I'm sure they were not a cheap hire.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
No, And then things kind of went pear shaped for
the Pinkertons. As far as I can tell, this was
the first time the Pinkerton's reputation took a real hit
with the James Gang Yeah, they went after the James Gang,
led by Frank and Jesse James. I didn't know this, Yeah,
but they were terrorists, Confederate terrorists during the Civil War
(32:48):
in Missouri, that's where they were from. And Missouri was
this powder keg that actually kind of helped kick off
the Civil War because I guess abolitionists and pro slavery
people came together to settle Missouri and they did not
get along. And during the Civil War one of the
things that James Gang did was murder Union supporters in Missouri. Yes,
(33:11):
not even on the front lines. These weren't even soldiers,
these were civilians. They were just running around killing and terrorizing.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
And you know, after the war, of course, they gained
further notoriety by robbing everything in sight, you know, trains, banks,
stage coaches, you name it. And Jesse sort of built
up this, oh what do you call it, like a
sort of a legendary status among the poor in working
class that he was some kind of a robin Hood type,
(33:40):
even though there's no indication that he was ever like
robbing to give to the poor, right, but people would
you know, hide him and take care of him and
stuff like that. For some reason, but at any rate,
in eighteen seventy four, the Pinkertons were hired to catch
these guys, Frank and Jesse, and they sent an agent
to infiltrate the gang.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
His name was Joseph.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Witcher, and he did a pretty good job until they
found out that he was an informant and he was murdered,
which kind of started the downhill tumble.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah. Alan Pinkerton took this quite personally. Oh yeah, there's
a quote from him saying that as far as capturing
Jesse and Frank James, there's no use talking. They must die. Yeah,
So if they were wanted dead or alive, he was
going to bring him in dead for sure. And in
eighteen seventy five, early on in the year, they went
to the James's family home in Missouri, and Jesse and
(34:35):
Frank James weren't home. They'd been tipped off that the
Pinkertons with a bunch of local pro union supporters were
going to be there to capture them, so they weren't there.
But apparently the Pinkertons and their assistants didn't know this.
Somebody the Pinkerton said this was a local that did this,
that they did not do this. Somebody threw a lantern
(34:56):
into the home I saw in the hopes of illuminating
things better. Well, the lantern exploded, Yeah, exactly. The lantern exploded,
killed their eight year old half brother Archie, and blew
their mom, Zerelda's arm off. So they've killed a young
boy and maimed an older woman, and the Pinkertons are
(35:18):
the ones who took the hit reputation wise.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, and after all that, you know, pr work, A
lot of that was undone because of this, basically, But
it's not like they've shut down or anything.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And didn't they go after some other gangs too?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah? Very famously. They were the ones that chased Butch
Cassidy and Sundance the Sundance Kid down to Bolivia. Bolivian
army killed them, and they were famous for catching and
summarily executing all the members of the Apple Dumpling Gang.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
All right, we'll take a break now.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I'm going to contemplate that joke, and we're going to
come back and talk about what the Pinkertons were kind
of known for from this point forward.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Right after this.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Okay, so after the Wild West kind of came and went,
they got into corporate affairs firmly on the side of
the corporation. At the time, there was a lot of
labor movements, a lot of workers write stuff going on,
and don't forget Alan Pinkerton had to flee the UK
(36:50):
because he was such a radical labor supporter. Now his
agency is the Premier Security Group and labor organization infiltrators.
This is what they started doing, and this is where
they're the bad name, the blemish on their name that's
still around today, really started to develop because they were
(37:14):
at this point do whatever corporations wanted them to do
as long as they paid them.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yeah, and you know what corporations generally wanted them to
do was bust up the unions. Was to infiltrate the
companies and bust up unions, which is what they ultimately
started doing for you know, a lot of money. It
started out as an employee testing service in eighteen fifty
five and sort of grew over.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
The next few years.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And initially it was like, hey, let's get some moles
in there and see if we can uncover like illegal activity,
people stealing from the company and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
But then it's just understandable, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
But then that sort of expanded, and I guess the
people hiring were like, Hey, since you're in there, why
don't you kind of let us know what's going on,
what they're talking about, and like if they like management discontented,
and if they're you know, most importantly, if they're starting
to organize and talk about forming a labor society, which
you know, of course would ultimately be a union.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yes. This became such a part of their job that
the Order of Railway Conductors started warning their members that
there's Pinkerton's undercover who are watching you, and not just
watching you to see if you're stealing, they're watching you
to see if you want to form a union. And
this was the I mean, this was a terrible direction
for them to start to go down because this was
(38:33):
such a militant time. I mean, there were like anarchists
running around like throwing bombs in the United States. There
were labor unions that soldiers were sometimes brought out to shoot.
I mean, it was a really rough time as far
as like labor and management goes, because there was just
this struggle to say, who owns the fruit of our labor? Yeah,
(38:57):
you who's paying for the raw materials or us who's
actually turning those raw materials into the end product. And
maybe it's not one or the other, but I guarantee
it's more than the share that you're giving us a
factory owner. And so this struggle became violent and many
many times. Again, like I said, the Pinkertons landed firmly
(39:18):
or started out firmly on the side of corporations that
they stayed there.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, we should probably highlight the Molly Maguire's that was
one of more famous cases. They were a secret society
in Ireland initially and then in eighteen sixties in Pennsylvania
kind of re emerged from Irish immigrants because they were
coal miners there and at the time they were facing
a lot of discrimination. The job conditions were not good,
(39:42):
working long hours, they were very dangerous, and they were
you know, a lot of times living in company housing,
paid in company script that they could only spend at
the company store. They were just completely folded into this
corporation as almost enslaved people in some way.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Ultimately they had their freedom, of course, but it was
they were owned by the company essentially. Finally, in the
eighteen sixties, supervisors started receiving these coffin notices basically from
the worker saying, hey were the molly mcguires, and coffin
notice means that your time on earth is nigh and
(40:23):
you're not going to be around very long. So the
writing was on the wall that things were about to
turn violent.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, And it did start to get violent. And I
saw that the molly mcguires started murdering and assassinating some
of the some of the members of the corporation, like Foreman,
who were the people they worked with the most directly
and who are the most brutal toward them. But I
also saw that this was in retaliation for members of
the molly mcguires being murdered first. Yeah, either way, it
(40:52):
turned violent pretty terribly. What the molly mcguires did not
know is that there was a Pinkerton man who they
knew as James McKenna, but whose real name was James McFarlane,
who had spent two years by now working under cover
and ingratiating himself with the mally mcguires, or even beyond
the mally McGuire's, just the Irish coal miners who worked
(41:14):
and lived in this area, so much so he became
the secretary of the local lodge of the Ancient Order
of Hiberians, an Irish Catholic fraternal organization. So he really
worked his way into it, and he got a lot
of intel on them, and ultimately turned state's evidence and
got twenty men executed almost exclusively on his testimony.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, for sure, on charges of murder, arson, and kidnapping.
Ten were hanged in eighteen seventy seven. Ten were then
hanged in eighteen seventy eight, I guess, and this is
one of the most like insider jobs of all time.
I think there was a historian, Harald Aaron who that
was one of the most astonishing, astounding, excuse me, surrenders
(42:04):
of sovereignty and American history, because what happened was Franklin Gowan,
who was the guy who ran the company who hired
the Pinkertons to begin with, he was the chief prosecutor.
So it was all this inside job. These guys were
arrested by a private police force, and then the coal
(42:26):
company's attorneys prosecuted them, and the only thing that the
state did was like, here, use his courtroom and use
our gallows or whatever, and other than that, it was
all just a private job to find and execute these guys.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, many of whom who were considered to have been innocent.
They were innocent men who were executed again almost exclusively
on James mcparlane, this Pinkerton man's testimony, and yeah, it
was just a total travesty from starting to finish. In Pennsylvania.
Did pardon one of the men, John Keho, in nineteen
(43:01):
seventy nine, about one hundred years too late for John Keyho,
but it was kind of a symbolic thing saying like, yeah,
we really screwed up and letting this company essentially form
their own court and trial and executions. Probably more famous though,
is the Pinkerton's role in the Homestead strike in Homestead,
(43:21):
Pennsylvania at one of the Carnegie Steel mills.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
So in eighteen ninety two there was a union contract
that expired for that steel company in Pennsylvania there in Homestead,
and Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie, a couple of
robber barons we've talked about in the past, said all right,
we're going to cut wages back. We're going to break
this union, which was the Amalgamated Association of Steel and
Iron Workers and Carnegie said, I'm out here. I'm going
(43:48):
to leave the country. Henry Clay Henry Clay Frick got
involved sort of doing the dirty work on the ground.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah, and he said, all right, I'm going to hire
the Pinkertons. We're not even negotiating.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I'm going to bring these guys in to essentially act
as guards to lock these people out.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah. And so three hundred Pinkertons showed up on July sixth,
eighteen ninety two. They were pulled down the river on
barges and they were all armed to the teeth with
Winchester rifles and cold forty five's and all the modern
guns you could hope for. And when they arrived, they
were met with I think two or three thousand homestead
(44:29):
not just steel workers, but neighbors, community members, just people
who were supporting the strikers.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Angry too.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, they were really mad, not just because they were
in the midst of the strike, but because this private
police force had shown up to intimidate them or possibly
kill them the way that they were armed. And so
a battle ensued, Like there's no other word for it.
It was a twelve or fifteen hour battle. Yeah, only
a dozen people died. But that's amazing to me. As
(44:59):
violent as this battle was, they tried to or I
should say, they pushed a flaming train car at the
barges to try to kill the Pinkertons. Like that was
just one thing that the strikers did. Like it was
really violent.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Yeah, I mean, it was shocking that only a dozen
people died. I guess it's a testament to how bad
of a shot they were. It really was collectively. Of course,
the workers, you know, they they surrendered. The Pinkertons did
because they were just so far outnumbered, even though most
of the I think most of the dozen were the
workers that died, but the Pinkertons knew that they were
(45:36):
vastly outnumbered, so they surrendered.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
But the workers lost.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Because he Henry Clay, frick Man, I have a hard time.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
With that one.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
You want to say, people, I know Henry Clay.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
People got eighty five hundred National Guard troops sent in
after the Pinkertons left, and of course, you know, they
broke the union and said we're going to decrease your wages,
We're going to increase how much you have to work,
and this just became sort of a cyclical thing that
was happening. The Pinkertons early on, they were pretty good
(46:06):
at infiltrating, but when it came to breaking these unions,
the federal government would come in with the troops and
do a far better job at doing so.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Yeah, because strikers typically recognized federal troops is more legitimate
than a private police force showing up, you know.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Yeah, and just more people with more arms.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah, they had gatling guns, like it's demonstrated at the
end of the Wild Bunch.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
You don't want to mess with those. So yeah, from
those of us, like looking back today, you might think, oh,
that's just what they did back then, which was messed up,
but that's just the norm. Not true. Congress actually investigated
this incident. They were like, that is pretty screwed up
that you hired the Pinkertons and brought in the National
Guard to essentially put this town under martial law. And
(46:50):
as a matter of fact, Congress urged states to pass
laws to make it so that corporations couldn't hire private
companies to break unions, and Ohio went so far as
to say the Pinkertons themselves are now illegal here.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true. So I mean that really changed
everything for the Pinkertons there as far as strike breaking goes.
It took a huge hit. Couldn't get a lot of
work after that, But they did go on. They did
anti union espionage work.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
This is something I never knew at all, was that
they they just they kept going. They were acquired in
nineteen ninety nine, Yeah, by Securitas, and I had no
idea that they went on that much further after Pinkerton's death,
after Alan Pickerton's death.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Yeah, they trade on the name still, for sure. Yeah.
It's a massive company I think, with like fifty thousand
employees and offices all over the world, but they still
use the Pinkerton name. Like you can hire Pinkerton for
corporate security. Apparently they'll ride along and container ships to
protect against pirates. Wow, they've served as guards at Marylyn
(48:00):
Rose funeral. Yeah, back in the sixties. I also saw
that same year they escorted the Mona Lisa from France
to the US.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Oh, which is you know, they could probably just do
that under an overcoat. That thing's pretty small.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
It is fairly small. And then one other thing where
they pop up and this made me wonder if this
is where this idea came from. Apparently they're bad guys
in the video game Red Dead Redemption two, which I
know for a fact that you've played.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
They very much are figured, very heavily into that storyline
if you play the story part of that.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Is that where you got the idea to do one
on them?
Speaker 1 (48:36):
No, because I haven't played that in a long time,
I'm not sure where I got it. It may have been,
I don't know. I'm not really sure. They also pigure
in a bunch of movies. Of course, they're in Deadwood.
They were in The Long Riders in the eighties, and
Friend of the Show Paul Schneider was in the Great
Great Movie from two thousand and seven, the Assassination of
(48:57):
Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, and they that
Pinkerton's figure pretty heavily in that movie too.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
That was a good movie. We should talk about the
death of Alan Pinkerton real quick, Chuck.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Yeah, it's pretty unusual.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
He died July first, eighteen eighty four, right before his
sixty fifth birthday. And as the story goes, he slipped
on a street in Chicago and bit his tongue something
which I did when I was a kid, had twelve
stitches across the center of my tongue back together when
I was like twelve. But I did not die, because
I'm still here. But Pinkerton died as a result of
(49:34):
this because it turned gangrenous.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
Yeah, he wouldn't go get it treated, and it just
kept getting worse, and that was it for him. Yeah,
he was put to rest near his wife. And very interestingly,
he also in his family plot, buried Kate Warren because
he so admired this the first female detective ever hired.
(49:57):
He so admired her in her work that he had
her buried with him. She was still alive and was
very unhappy about this, but he admired her that much.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
That's super cool. So she's there with him. Maybe I
guess some of his sons are there and his wife Joan.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Yes, wonderful.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Nice Chuck, you got anything else?
Speaker 3 (50:18):
I got nothing else.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That's it for the Pinkertons. Everybody at long last. And
since I said it long last, I just triggered listener mail.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
That's right. This is a little follow up on the
GPS episode.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Toward the end, I kind of poked fun at Garman
as being something that you know, like my mom uses
and not like a more modern system. But it turns
out Garment is still very popular because Deanna sent me
an email saying, Hey, a lot of cyclists use this stuff,
and I asked her why. I was like, oh, that's
super interesting. I said, do you know why they have
you know, they're used by cyclists, are still around in
(50:53):
that capacity, and she said, good question. I think there
are a couple of reasons why it's still the go
to for GPS. They've been around forever. They've been making
GPS for planes and boats since the late eighties, so
they had a really big head start and then number
two constant refinement. While others are just starting to develop
their products, Garman was already fine tuning theirs, and they
had a twenty year head start, so they packed in
(51:14):
a ton of extra features. For example, they introduced the
first bike radar system years before anyone else, and the
radar still blows the competition away. I even have a
buddy he works for Wahoo and he still uses a
Garman radar.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Very nice.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Also, Deanna says they built a lot of brand loyalty,
especially in the cycling world. Minievus still use them, even
though the quality has slipped just a bit in recent years.
We don't like using phones on our bikes because they're
bulky and drain the batteries really fast, and Garman just
feels more polished and reliable for our needs.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Who is that from?
Speaker 3 (51:48):
That was from Deanna?
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Deanna Garman. That's right, Thanks Deanna. We appreciate that. That
was a great email, and if you want to be
like Deanna, you can email us too. Send it off
to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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