March 10, 2025 • 38 mins
It feels like the personality we have is the one we're stuck with, regardless of how much we wish we were different...but is that really the case? In today's episode we are joined by writer and author Olga Khazan who ran a year long experiment to see how much she could change her personality to be more outgoing, less anxious and hopefully, happier. We discuss:
- The root of all personalities
- What does science say is the best kind of personality
- When does personality become stable
- Is it possible to change?
- How could we change our personality?
- The results of her experiment then & now + much more
Listen now!
Olga's book here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Me-But-Better/Olga-Khazan/9781668012543
PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean
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For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties today, let's talk about destiny
or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk
(00:21):
about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed,
How it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how
happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of
a black box. Like we know it's shaped by nature
and nurture. We know that genetics are involved. How we
were raised is kind of involved. But I think as
we get older, we become more aware of the parts
(00:41):
of ourselves that are holding us back and that you know,
we really would wish for something different. Well, today I
have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that
very possibility. What if we could be ourselves bit better
by rewiring our personality? And want to welcome on author
and journalist Olga Hazan. Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Joining absolutely, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm very very excited for this episode and this topic
in general. But before we kind of jump into it.
Can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work. Sure.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
My name's Olga Hasan and I'm a staff writer at
the Atlantic magazine and I'm also an author of books.
This is my second book, and it is actually kind
of stems from a cover story I did for The
Atlantic a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So that's that's my backstory.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
And you're not gonna give us any spoilers. I feel
like the cover story, like you go into it kind
of in the book, right, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I can, Yeah, I can, I can. I can give
you a spoiler. So the cover story, I kind of
experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I
kind of realized that I needed to do more and
that it you know, kind of letting up on the experiment.
I backtracked. I noticed that I was sort of falling
(02:00):
back into old patterns. So the book is really an
overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts
to change on three of them, and because the other
two I actually don't need to change, they're find they're
very high in me as it is. But I do
interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We're going to get to that because I feel like
it's such an interesting premise, But I do also want
to talk about how you became a journalist, how you
became a writer. I think as much as I love
interviewing people about the very you know, amazing niche things
that they're doing, and they're like whether it's psychology or
neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is
for people in their twenties, and a lot of people
(02:45):
probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind
of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating
high school to where you are now? Sure?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, wow, that's a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, if you were entire life please and thinks.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Graduated from high school like twenty years ago. Then I
went to college, did not major in journalism, but really
found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism,
and then I went to graduate school after I graduated
from college, which is not like a necessary step for
(03:24):
anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did.
Then I got a job at the Washington Post out
of graduate school, and I worked there for a brief time,
and then I moved to the Atlantic in twenty thirteen,
and I've worked at the Atlantic ever since, and I've
done a couple of different jobs there, but I've mostly
been a writer covering like health and human behavior.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well that's that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember,
like what your first big piece of writing was, like
your first article where you were like, oh my gosh,
like I'm a journalist.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, that probably was. So when I did my internship
in college. I wrote one story during that internship. It
was complex why I only wrote one, but that was
like the amount that I was allowed to write, and
it was about online gaming addiction, and I remember when it.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Came out, I felt so.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Just accomplished, Like I was like, yes, like my life
is all coming together. And of course, like I wouldn't
be a full time writer for I think eight years
after that, but it was it was like very good
motivation to keep going.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You know. I love stories like that where it's like, Okay,
just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean
that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as
you said, you had this like what sounds like this
big accomplished moment, and you know it really didn't come
full circle until what did you say, like ten years ago,
almost maybe twelve years ago, which, Yeah, we love hearing
those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book.
(05:02):
The premise of this book was basically that coup of
story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality?
Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why
did you feel like you had to do that?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, so your personality.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
You know, a lot of people think it's sort of
like what you like or dislike, or sort of the
kinds of things you say or whatever, but it's really
a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of
like something comes across your way and are you like, yes,
let's do it. Are you like, oh, I don't know
about that, or you know, It's kind of like how
how you interact.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
With the world.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And I noticed that a lot of how I was
interacting with the world was not helping me really, So
the intro to the book kind of gives a good
overview of this.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
But I had this day.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
This is before I had a kid, and it was like, now,
having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually
like a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated. But
you know, it was like I got stuck in traffic,
I got a bad haircut, I got photos taken that
looked really bad. I had a stressful thing where I
had to like pick my mom up at the airport,
but I had to go grocery shopping before. But the
(06:14):
like there was like a delay at the grocery store
and then I was gonna be late to pick up
my mom. And it was like this whole thing and
I just had a meltdown. I got back to my
Rbnb that I was staying in and I like drank
wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time and.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Was just like I hate everything.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
And then I kind of got to thinking and I
was like, even like me saying that now to you,
I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and like unappreciative
of the fact that like that day, you know, I
was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami, like
I got myself to Miami, uh, I you know, was
getting a haircut, like spa day for me, you know,
(06:54):
I got professional photos taken, like you know, and it
was sort of like I had this realization that like, wow,
I can take anything good and positive and maybe or
maybe even just like mediocre. Right, Like a lot of
things that happen in life are kind of like, eh,
that was whatever, you know, And I have a tendency
to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the
(07:16):
negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that
were not serving me. And it was made me like
not enjoy my life like to the extent that I
that it could have and should have been enjoyed. And
so that's kind of the long and the short of it.
Why I decided to change.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
That's actually really interesting, and can I be honest, maybe
I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality because
I had a day like that, like literally yesterday, like sorry, no,
I literally even got my hair cut, and like I
didn't like my haircut, and like my mom was literally
in town yesterday as well, and that's like honestly crazy.
So like, yo, I'm like hearing that story and like no,
(07:54):
like you just feel your emotions go, there's a.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Time and a place to feel your you can feel
your emotions. And also like look at the.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Bright side, you know, Yeah, I know it's just really funny.
And I think like what you're really pointing at is
like this wasn't like a one off situation, like you
had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy
your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, Okay,
well something needs to change in me. Why did you
hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of
(08:27):
personality rather than something else. Why didn't you like speak
spiritual enlightenment. Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh,
I need to change something about my lifestyle. Like did
you feel? Yeah, what was like the focus on changing
what I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right, like as a
building block.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah, So neuroticism was one of the things I wanted
to change. The neuroticism is one of the five traits,
and it's just anxiety and depression, right, And I had
a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety
and a lot of kind of negativity as I mentioned,
But there are other elements of personality and they sort
of encompass those other things that you mentioned. So actually,
as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing
(09:06):
I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of
Buddhist teachings because a lot of neuroticism it's not about
like reducing the number of things that happen to you
that are bad. It's I mean, although, like if you're
like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things
keep happening to you, Like that's something.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
To look to.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
But let's say you're like a like a functional person
who's who's you know, living like a basically normal life.
It's gonna be a lot easier to change your reactions
to the things that happened to you than it is
to like make every single thing in the world go
your way.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So that's why I kind of.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Like looked inward and and and personality does encompass a
lot of those things that you mentioned, so like spirituality,
Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was
really more extroversion, Like I wanted to become more extroverted,
and that was a big part. Lifestyle was a big
part of that is sort of how often do you
go out to socialize and do you make an effort
to do that? You know, not just like do you
sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you,
but do you make connections do you try to get
(10:19):
out there? So those those are things that I did,
but I called it personality change because personality includes all that.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Okay, that makes a lot more sense. So in this
like endeavor to change your personality, did you figure out
like who the happiest kinds of people were? Like, was
there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people
are extroverted and are low and neuroticism and like high
and openness to experience. Its like thinking about like the
(10:51):
big five. What did you come across in your research?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, so people are not going to be thrilled to
hear this, but the happiest people are like high in
all the traits except for neuroticism. So so there's five traits.
I will just briefly say what they are. It's so
openness to experience. Happy people are high on that because
that's like yeah, spiritual but not religious, like creative, imaginative conscientiousness,
(11:22):
which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being
places on time and being like healthy and exercising. Happy
people tend to be high in that extroversion. Extroverts are happier.
That's like a really consistent finding in psychology.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Unfortunately I was.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I'm an introvert, and I was not thrilled to hear
that agreeableness. Agreeable people are are happier. They're always like
making friends and going to baby showers and what have you.
And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness.
And so the opposite of it is emotional stability, that's
what it's called, and people who are high in that
(12:00):
are happier.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Kind of rough, not gonna lie h Like, I'm an
introvert and I have anxiety. I think like maybe caveat,
Like I'll put the caveat in. Like, sometimes I think
that it's like our introverts less happy, or the scales
by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts, right,
(12:26):
because who's going to participate in those early studies that
like created indicators of happiness. It's going to be the
people who have a lot of friends so we can
invite them to participate, and who were like, yeah, I'll
do this, I'll go out, like I'll get paid to
like sit in a room with a stranger for an hour.
Like So sometimes I think that, and I also do
think that, like what we'll get to is, even if
you don't think you can change your personality, you can
(12:48):
most certainly manage it, and you can manage like medications,
and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists.
So don't see this as like a curve upon your
name if you kind of associate with some of those
other traits. But this kind of leads me to my
next question, like what age do you think our personality
(13:09):
really starts to stick at? What age do you think
we really feel like stuck in who we are?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, so I would say there's not an age at
which we start to stick and who we are. So
that used to be the thinking this, Like influential psychologist
named William James had this infamous sort of quote that
like the characters set like plaster by the age of thirty,
and which is relevant for your podcasts for people in
(13:36):
their twenties. So, I mean even he said, like in
your twenties, you can still change, but kind of more
recent research has found that that's not really true, that
people kind of continue to change throughout their lives even naturally,
even if you don't really do anything to try to
change your personality. Is gonna kind of shift from decade
(13:58):
to decade. You're going to be a different person. And
you know when you have kids and like a job
than you were in college then you were in high school,
you know, And that is like freeing and it's kind
of scary, but it's also kind of nice that like
you're not gonna be like if you're not crazy about
something you know about yourself or about your life, you're
(14:18):
not stuck with it forever.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
That is very very free and even like as we
get into like older age as well. Something that I like,
the statistic that I really like to talk about is
how by the time people reach like sixty and seventy,
symptoms of mental illness really decline, which I don't know.
I've always like thought about that and been like, oh,
that sounds great, like way for that, wait for that,
(14:44):
like maybe I'll have ten years of just like bliss.
But it is like a really beautiful thing that you
mentioned this. I hear this a lot. Like another myth
about personality change slash personality stuckness is by the time
you reach twenty five, like your frontal lobe is fully developed.
And I think we kind of think like I, hey,
so like that's it, Like, this is who I'm always
(15:04):
going to be. What evidence did you find like on
the contrary before I like really dive into your personal experiment.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, So so there's two kind of branches of evidence
to the contrary. So first, uh, your frontal lobe being
fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because
we don't have like a lobe in our brain that
is where the personality lives. So like even if they
(15:33):
study like brain changes or you know, like those like
fMRI studies where it's like brains lighting up, those don't
necessarily correlate perfectly with personality necessarily. So there's kind of
two elements to this. The first is that when researchers
have followed people you know, and given them personality tests
(15:56):
over and over across the years, they do find that
people change, you know, they tend to change in certain
ways over time. So, like you mentioned that people become
kind of mentally healthier in old age, neuroticism does go
down naturally across your life. So if you feel like
(16:18):
you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age people
become less so so that sort of just naturally happens.
You don't have to do anything. You don't have to
like take any lexipro that naturally happens for most people.
The other element of this is that if you actually
try to change, it can happen even faster. So there's
(16:41):
been studies that show the people who get therapy, for example,
become less neurotic, and in a short period of time
they become a lot less neurotic neurotic than you would
expect them to having, just like naturally, you know, decline
and neuroticism. And the same with some of the studies
that I cover with my in my book, researchers who
(17:04):
have given people these like challenges. You know, people will say,
I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to
make more friends, and they're like, okay, every day for
or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to
someone new and have coffee with them or have you know,
lunch with them or whatever. And they do maybe like
five to ten challenges like that over a period of time,
(17:26):
they actually find that they do grow an extraversion based
on personality tests that they take at the beginning and
the end. So not only do you naturally change, you
can also change through effort.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So a things like introversion, like I always thought that
they were vary, and they like it's a genetic Oh my,
I don't know, like genetic predisposition, it's temperament, but you're
saying that, actually, no, it's more of a nuts effecta
well being like environment.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Sorry, yeah, so it's both. So, so genetics is responsible
for about forty to sixty percent of our personality. And
even it's not like direct like if you think about
either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either
of them, right, You're probably like you have like elements
of them, but you're not like they're twin like you.
(18:12):
You kind of most people are. I mean usually people
are relieved to hear this, like not exactly like either
either parent, right, so you get a little bit like
you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural
proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right.
But at the same time, there's other there's like this
(18:33):
you know, forty to sixty other percent of personality that
we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's
not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. It's
like it's like kind of that, but it's also like
your friends. It's like, did you go to college, what
kind of job do you have? You know, do you
make an effort to like read self help books. It's
(18:55):
kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb
into yourself that create that other part of personality. So
that's the kind of element that I'm talking about, is
that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are
totally bookish and hate talking to people, you're gonna naturally
be kind of like I feel really introverted. But if
but if you, you know, go into a job in
(19:18):
sales and you talk to people you know all day
and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like
high fives and promotions for being extroverted, like you're gonna
be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Be, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does
kind of work, Like yeah, yeah, absolutely rewarded. See. I
find this really interesting because like my parents are so
totally opposite each other, Like they are the perfect definition
of like opposites attract. Like my dad is like a
stay at home dad and like we call him like
a charity wife. Like he runs like a non for
(19:53):
profit like giving bags to refugee children in Australia, and like,
then my mom is like a like badass like Cee
R and like she has like she is older, like
she is the lowest person, like the lowest neuroticism levels
I've ever seen in an individual, Like I have never
seen that woman break a sweat. She is not anxious
(20:13):
at all, like nothing phases her. And then my dad
is like the complete opposite, and it's like completely like
he's not completely anxious, but he's very anxious and very
existential and very like in his own head about very
deep things. And it's really funny like seeing like me
(20:33):
and my sister's always joked that it was like, you know,
one of us got my mom's jeans and my other
me and my other sister got my dad's jeans, and
it was like damn, like if I could switch, like
I totally.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
But then again it's like me and my sister like
not to like tell her story, but had had very
different approaches to like how he faced neuroticism and like
and other things as well, and like agreeable and all
those things, and like there's definitely has been a difference
in like how we've approached it and how we've changed
as people. So I'm ranting. Really, what I want to
(21:10):
get to is what you found in yourself. But we're
going to take a tiny break and we'll be back
in just a second. Stay tuned. We are back with
Oga Hazan talking about can we change our personality? This
is kind of the crux of this whole interview. What happened? Firstly,
(21:30):
what did you do? And secondly what did you find?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, so that's like the whole book, So let me
just break it down into let's talk about extraversion first,
because I think that is like the easiest to wrap
your head around and also has had the clearest results.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Okay, so extraversion.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Basically the secret to increasing extraversion is to socialize with people.
Some of the other traits are more existential and more
like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think
about things. Extraversion is like very clear cut, go talk
to people, like go do activities. So I signed up
(22:12):
for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for Improv
Sailing Club, a bunch of meetup groups, so which is
like groups of strangers meeting up. Literally, I like throw
a party at my house. I just went out all
the time. I went from basically going out maybe once
(22:34):
a week to going out like pretty much every night
or like not and not like going out drinking, like
although there was a lot of drinking, I get like
like just being around people. And I found that like
almost every time before I went, I dreaded it.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I did not want to go.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
I was like, I hate improv I don't even know
why I'm doing this, it's stupid, Like I don't want
to go. And then almost every time after I would
do it, I felt better. I was like that was
super fun, or like that person in the sailing my
sailboat today was really interesting, or like that was cool,
or like hey, like I got to get whatever a
(23:15):
burger on the way back home, like there was something
that came out of it. Usually that I was like, huh,
that was like a nice break from the day. That
was like a nice way to like liven up the
day a little bit. And I think that's kind of
like the when I talk about increasing extraversion or like
changing your introversion. You can remain an introvert, but just
(23:38):
do like twenty percent more stuff like connect with people
twenty percent more, and there's a little bit of a
mood boost there. Like researchers who are introverts have studied
this concept and have found that like even just connecting
with people a little bit, and it doesn't mean that
you have to be like the life of the party.
Like I think people assume extraversion means like you're super
(24:03):
talkative and like can't shut up and you know, or
you're always telling jokes. You can like go hang out
with two close friends and like you know, listen more
than you talk and like knit the whole time, and uh,
that's still extraversion, that's you know, still being around people.
So yeah, I for that one, my introversion, my extraversion
(24:24):
did go up. And I think what I took away
from that is that like I do enjoy having fun,
I need to sometimes force myself to have fun, but it's.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Okay to do that.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Like it's okay to be like commit, you know, kind
of to an exercise class or to something else that
doesn't sound super appealing all the time but ends up
being rewarding.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
This is what I always say, Like people will people
will dan maybe like how do I make any friends?
Or like how do I stop feeling like everything is
an effort and I'm like, pick two things to do
awake and do them in the same place at the
same time, and you will meet other people who are
doing this same thing as you, like, whether it is
it an exercise class or like an improv class or
a life drawn class or like social sport. There are
(25:07):
so many people out there who also want to make
friends and who also are like seeking connection, and there's
like no shame about it, either of being like, Okay,
I'm trying to train my brain to like this more,
because you do fall into a habit, like I'm such
an extroverted person. And last week I spent the entire
day at my house and like the entire week like
indoors working, and I had such cabin fever and I
(25:29):
was like, I've just I'm just so depressed, like I
just don't know who I am anymore. And then I
went and did like barefootballs with my friends and I
was like, wow, like life is so beautiful, Like look
at those flowers. It's like, yeah, yeah, giving your brain
what it needs. So extraversion was the one that you
saw an improvement in.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
What about neuroticism, Yeah, so neuroticism I also saw an improvement.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
So neuroticism.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot.
I and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy.
I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it,
and I did not enjoy it after I was done.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It was not like that was really nice. Was like,
thank God, I don't have to do that for another
twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I signed up for a class where we had to
meditate for forty five minutes every day, which is so
long it's literally the longest forty five minutes of your life. However,
it did work. My neuroticism went down, and my anxiety
went down a little bit, but my depression went down
a ton. It went down a lot, like to basically
(26:33):
like not being depressed anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And why that.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Happened, as sort of anyone's guess if I had to
like pose it.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Why that occurred.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's that I did a lot of what's called loving
kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice
to yourself for however long.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And it's usually I do it to like a guide.
It at like a tape. Basically, people don't use tape anymore,
like a recording, like.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
A guided.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, exactly like a guided recording, and it's like, you know,
like like there's like the line that always makes me
cry is like there's you can search the whole universe
for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness
than you are yourself and not find anyone.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And it's like like oh yeah, you're.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Just like, oh my god, what this tape is.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
So it's it's Sharon Salzburg and I use the ten
Percent Happier app for meditation.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Oh I love that app. Yeah, yeah, up from the
Yale Is it from the Yale person?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
No, I think you're thinking of jud Brewer. The the
ten percent Happier is Dan Harris.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Oh yeah Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes, he does a
podcast as well.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think, yes, yeah, I mean everyone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Everyone has a podcast. Is so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, but but he Yeah, but it actually like really worked,
and I think like there's something about like repeating that
I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried
to like hammer home the self compassion.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And I think it worked. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Wow, see I get this like meditation. I've never met
someone who's been like I'm really into it all the time.
Like I do feel like you kind of have to
drag yourself into it, kicking and screaming. It's like when
you have to like get a needle when you're like
I really don't want to do this, or like go
to the dentist to like go to the doctor, and
then you feel amazing, like oh wow, that pain's gone.
(28:37):
Like that's what meditation sounds like. And it's just like
discipline towards your soul, right in the same way to
exercise your body, like you're exercising your mind, even if
it's like tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in
the moment, like it feels gives you strength later on,
I think it.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
What it did is made me less afraid of my
negative emotions. So you're sitting there like sometimes for hours
and you're just like your mind is like going and going,
and it's silence, you know. And I think what it
does is like for me at least, I don't know
if this is like correct, but for me at least,
it made me like inevitably like negative feelings will come
(29:18):
up during that, but it was sort of just like
it's okay, Like nothing bad is really happening right now.
You're literally sitting in a room in your house on
a cushion, like meditating, but you kind of have you
still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions if
you're someone who's prone to neuroticism.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
But I don't know, it just lets you like kind
of not be as.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Thrown off by them or like because bad things are
still I mean my meditation teacher would say this all
the time, like things happen that you don't like, which
is like very simple, but it's like oh yeah, and
like you're just you're gonna have to deal with that
for the rest of your life and it's all about you,
know you. You know your mom you mentioned is like so
(30:02):
not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happen to her, but
she thinks about them in a like somehow more zen
way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I would love to as well. It's crazy and she's
had a tough life, like not to give her story,
and I have done an episode with her where she
talks about it, but not even the full extent, like
not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at
her and I can see like there'll be a time
that like me or my my sister will like be
panicking about something or being like, don't you just see
(30:35):
like how terrible this is? And I can literally just
see her looking at me being like no, like trying
really hard to have empathy for me and being like
I just can't do it. Like she she's incredible, and
like she has obviously like learnt what to say, but
she doesn't like feel it in her bones the way
(30:56):
that like my dad would or my sister would, So
she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course.
Like she's pretty incredible. Okay. I want to ask this
question that I think everyone is probably thinking at this point,
you did all these amazing exercises. How long did this last?
As well? Like six months?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
This lasted it a year?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay, A yeah? And when did that experiment end?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I honestly only had a year of book leaves, so
it was just like June of twenty twenty two to
June of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Okay, cool, So like a year, a solid year. Have
you found that you've gone back to your old self since?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
So in some ways but not in others. Since I
did that, I had a baby, and that necessarily like
changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially
in the beginning. But I would say that there are
still a lot of things that I carried through into
even my life as a I guess I'm still a
(31:58):
new parent technically. So one example is like just reaching
out to other moms.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
So it's a very.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Stressful time when you first have a baby, Like it's
just is there's no getting around it. You don't know
what you're doing, and they're very tiny and they cannot
speak to you, and so you're just like, ah, what
do you want? So I kind of made a point
of reaching out to other moms, and like I'm in
a mom's group that's been really supportive.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I also just like.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Really really try to even in day to day life,
if I meet another mom with kids the same age,
I really try to like reach out and at least
see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And
sometimes that means that I and this is not something
I would have done previously. I actually do a lot
of reaching out repeatedly. So like if someone, let's say,
(32:55):
I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's
have coffee, and we have coffee and we both have
a good time. I and then some time elapses and
no one follows up. I might reach out again, even
though it was me the last time too, and then
I might do that like a third time. Like there
are some relationships where I'm just always the person who
organizes things, and that used to really bother me, Like
(33:16):
I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends,
Like I'm gonna move on because they're not putting an
equal effort into organizing things, and like I don't I
don't want that. But I kind of just realized through
this that like everyone has stuff going on, and like
people just don't think about things the same way. They
are maybe swamped in other ways. They're may be like
(33:37):
not as comfortable with reaching out, Like I don't know.
It just made me like a lot less sensitive. I
guess about these like rules of social interaction that I
had previously thought were like iron.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Like laws, you know. So that's been one thing that
I've noticed.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Like yesterday, we went on a playdate to this woman
who I barely knew, just because I was like, I'm
really bored in if I have to like sing Baby
Beluga one more time, and I might, so it's like
let's go over to you Chan's house and yeah, that's
what we did and it was great, you know, So
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
I think it's like a really interesting like how you
can it's quite personal, but like whether you would have
been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done
this experiment like the year before you had a baby,
and like maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's
like wow, like in this weird way, like maybe you
were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge
(34:35):
on planet Earth. Like I heard this quotes like when
you become a parent, you have to use every single
skill that you've ever put on a resume, like and
the ones that you haven't. So it be interesting to
see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very confident,
capable mother if you hadn't have done this, but it's yeah,
it's fascinating, Like I would have loved to see a
control group.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I know I'm not very confident or capable as it is,
but I will say that I think that doing.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
This experiment helped me decide to have a baby.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Okay, cool, interesting.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Like it helped me get more comfortable with the idea
of having a baby.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah, because babies, listen, I don't have one. But they
seem like a lot of work, and they seem like
they will put you in like a state, like they
will bring up all those challenges. So you know, the
other day, this is like so funny, But I didn't
realize you can't give babies.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Water, not until six months.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
See, guys, I don't know if any of you did
know that listener to the podcast, but I was like, wow,
if I had a kid right now and no one
had told me that, like that would have been real problem.
Like what are the other things that I don't know
about this? Like? Ready, you end up?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
You end up googling. Don't worry about that stuff. Don't
don't worry about it right now. It's honestly you will.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Let you will be googling. You will google.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
The internet has answers, you google everything. No one knows
any of this stuff before they start.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Let me hear you, guys, And I think it will
be a long time. But I've got one final question
for you. I'm gonna ask every single guest on the
podcast the same question. What advice would you have for
listeners in their twenties, Like, what's one thing that you'd
wish you'd known earlier? And it doesn't have to be
about what we talked about today.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I would say that my advice for people in their
twenties is that it's okay to just pursue what you want.
You don't have to do something that seems practical or
like what other people want you to do, or just
because you've always been doing it. You can It's a
(36:41):
time of life when you can completely pick the thing
that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want
in the world, and just go at it with full force.
That's what I would I would recommend doing.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I also love that. I love that piece of advice.
I would give that advice myself. Oh good, which is brilliant.
Which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for
coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually,
I want to give a shout out to an article
that you wrote that I think is really would be
really amazing. It's called the Joy of Underperforming. I think
you wrote it like a couple of years ago, maybe,
(37:17):
But if you guys are looking for further listening, for
further reading, I'm sorry Olgraman and not even let you
give your own recommendations. I will in a second, but
I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow,
this is incredible for people in their twenties. But well,
it's great, but where else can can they find you?
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah? So our website is the Atlantic dot com and
I'm a writer there. I can find me and all
my brilliant colleagues there, and you can find my book,
which is called Me but Better wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
I'm very excited for it to come out. Comes out today.
If you're listening to this the day that this is released,
you can literally go and pre order a copy. And
I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having
already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like,
there's much more there and so much more science and
research and just like fascinating tidbits. So thank you so
much Olga for coming on the show. And as always,
(38:08):
if there is someone that you know who would like
to listen to this episode who you think would be
interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link.
Make sure that you are following along. If you want
to read us five stars, that would be very much appreciated.
Until next time, thank you for listening, and stay kind,
be safe, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very
(38:29):
very soon
Hello, everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties today, let's talk about destiny
or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk
(00:21):
about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed,
How it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how
happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of
a black box. Like we know it's shaped by nature
and nurture. We know that genetics are involved. How we
were raised is kind of involved. But I think as
we get older, we become more aware of the parts
(00:41):
of ourselves that are holding us back and that you know,
we really would wish for something different. Well, today I
have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that
very possibility. What if we could be ourselves bit better
by rewiring our personality? And want to welcome on author
and journalist Olga Hazan. Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Joining absolutely, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm very very excited for this episode and this topic
in general. But before we kind of jump into it.
Can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work. Sure.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
My name's Olga Hasan and I'm a staff writer at
the Atlantic magazine and I'm also an author of books.
This is my second book, and it is actually kind
of stems from a cover story I did for The
Atlantic a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So that's that's my backstory.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
And you're not gonna give us any spoilers. I feel
like the cover story, like you go into it kind
of in the book, right, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I can, Yeah, I can, I can. I can give
you a spoiler. So the cover story, I kind of
experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I
kind of realized that I needed to do more and
that it you know, kind of letting up on the experiment.
I backtracked. I noticed that I was sort of falling
(02:00):
back into old patterns. So the book is really an
overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts
to change on three of them, and because the other
two I actually don't need to change, they're find they're
very high in me as it is. But I do
interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We're going to get to that because I feel like
it's such an interesting premise, But I do also want
to talk about how you became a journalist, how you
became a writer. I think as much as I love
interviewing people about the very you know, amazing niche things
that they're doing, and they're like whether it's psychology or
neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is
for people in their twenties, and a lot of people
(02:45):
probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind
of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating
high school to where you are now? Sure?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, wow, that's a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, if you were entire life please and thinks.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Graduated from high school like twenty years ago. Then I
went to college, did not major in journalism, but really
found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism,
and then I went to graduate school after I graduated
from college, which is not like a necessary step for
(03:24):
anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did.
Then I got a job at the Washington Post out
of graduate school, and I worked there for a brief time,
and then I moved to the Atlantic in twenty thirteen,
and I've worked at the Atlantic ever since, and I've
done a couple of different jobs there, but I've mostly
been a writer covering like health and human behavior.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well that's that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember,
like what your first big piece of writing was, like
your first article where you were like, oh my gosh,
like I'm a journalist.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, that probably was. So when I did my internship
in college. I wrote one story during that internship. It
was complex why I only wrote one, but that was
like the amount that I was allowed to write, and
it was about online gaming addiction, and I remember when it.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Came out, I felt so.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Just accomplished, Like I was like, yes, like my life
is all coming together. And of course, like I wouldn't
be a full time writer for I think eight years
after that, but it was it was like very good
motivation to keep going.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You know. I love stories like that where it's like, Okay,
just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean
that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as
you said, you had this like what sounds like this
big accomplished moment, and you know it really didn't come
full circle until what did you say, like ten years ago,
almost maybe twelve years ago, which, Yeah, we love hearing
those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book.
(05:02):
The premise of this book was basically that coup of
story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality?
Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why
did you feel like you had to do that?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, so your personality.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
You know, a lot of people think it's sort of
like what you like or dislike, or sort of the
kinds of things you say or whatever, but it's really
a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of
like something comes across your way and are you like, yes,
let's do it. Are you like, oh, I don't know
about that, or you know, It's kind of like how
how you interact.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
With the world.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And I noticed that a lot of how I was
interacting with the world was not helping me really, So
the intro to the book kind of gives a good
overview of this.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
But I had this day.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
This is before I had a kid, and it was like, now,
having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually
like a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated. But
you know, it was like I got stuck in traffic,
I got a bad haircut, I got photos taken that
looked really bad. I had a stressful thing where I
had to like pick my mom up at the airport,
but I had to go grocery shopping before. But the
(06:14):
like there was like a delay at the grocery store
and then I was gonna be late to pick up
my mom. And it was like this whole thing and
I just had a meltdown. I got back to my
Rbnb that I was staying in and I like drank
wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time and.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Was just like I hate everything.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
And then I kind of got to thinking and I
was like, even like me saying that now to you,
I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and like unappreciative
of the fact that like that day, you know, I
was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami, like
I got myself to Miami, uh, I you know, was
getting a haircut, like spa day for me, you know,
(06:54):
I got professional photos taken, like you know, and it
was sort of like I had this realization that like, wow,
I can take anything good and positive and maybe or
maybe even just like mediocre. Right, Like a lot of
things that happen in life are kind of like, eh,
that was whatever, you know, And I have a tendency
to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the
(07:16):
negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that
were not serving me. And it was made me like
not enjoy my life like to the extent that I
that it could have and should have been enjoyed. And
so that's kind of the long and the short of it.
Why I decided to change.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
That's actually really interesting, and can I be honest, maybe
I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality because
I had a day like that, like literally yesterday, like sorry, no,
I literally even got my hair cut, and like I
didn't like my haircut, and like my mom was literally
in town yesterday as well, and that's like honestly crazy.
So like, yo, I'm like hearing that story and like no,
(07:54):
like you just feel your emotions go, there's a.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Time and a place to feel your you can feel
your emotions. And also like look at the.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Bright side, you know, Yeah, I know it's just really funny.
And I think like what you're really pointing at is
like this wasn't like a one off situation, like you
had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy
your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, Okay,
well something needs to change in me. Why did you
hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of
(08:27):
personality rather than something else. Why didn't you like speak
spiritual enlightenment. Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh,
I need to change something about my lifestyle. Like did
you feel? Yeah, what was like the focus on changing
what I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right, like as a
building block.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah, So neuroticism was one of the things I wanted
to change. The neuroticism is one of the five traits,
and it's just anxiety and depression, right, And I had
a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety
and a lot of kind of negativity as I mentioned,
But there are other elements of personality and they sort
of encompass those other things that you mentioned. So actually,
as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing
(09:06):
I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of
Buddhist teachings because a lot of neuroticism it's not about
like reducing the number of things that happen to you
that are bad. It's I mean, although, like if you're
like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things
keep happening to you, Like that's something.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
To look to.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
But let's say you're like a like a functional person
who's who's you know, living like a basically normal life.
It's gonna be a lot easier to change your reactions
to the things that happened to you than it is
to like make every single thing in the world go
your way.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So that's why I kind of.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Like looked inward and and and personality does encompass a
lot of those things that you mentioned, so like spirituality,
Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was
really more extroversion, Like I wanted to become more extroverted,
and that was a big part. Lifestyle was a big
part of that is sort of how often do you
go out to socialize and do you make an effort
to do that? You know, not just like do you
sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you,
but do you make connections do you try to get
(10:19):
out there? So those those are things that I did,
but I called it personality change because personality includes all that.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Okay, that makes a lot more sense. So in this
like endeavor to change your personality, did you figure out
like who the happiest kinds of people were? Like, was
there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people
are extroverted and are low and neuroticism and like high
and openness to experience. Its like thinking about like the
(10:51):
big five. What did you come across in your research?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, so people are not going to be thrilled to
hear this, but the happiest people are like high in
all the traits except for neuroticism. So so there's five traits.
I will just briefly say what they are. It's so
openness to experience. Happy people are high on that because
that's like yeah, spiritual but not religious, like creative, imaginative conscientiousness,
(11:22):
which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being
places on time and being like healthy and exercising. Happy
people tend to be high in that extroversion. Extroverts are happier.
That's like a really consistent finding in psychology.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Unfortunately I was.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I'm an introvert, and I was not thrilled to hear
that agreeableness. Agreeable people are are happier. They're always like
making friends and going to baby showers and what have you.
And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness.
And so the opposite of it is emotional stability, that's
what it's called, and people who are high in that
(12:00):
are happier.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Kind of rough, not gonna lie h Like, I'm an
introvert and I have anxiety. I think like maybe caveat,
Like I'll put the caveat in. Like, sometimes I think
that it's like our introverts less happy, or the scales
by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts, right,
(12:26):
because who's going to participate in those early studies that
like created indicators of happiness. It's going to be the
people who have a lot of friends so we can
invite them to participate, and who were like, yeah, I'll
do this, I'll go out, like I'll get paid to
like sit in a room with a stranger for an hour.
Like So sometimes I think that, and I also do
think that, like what we'll get to is, even if
you don't think you can change your personality, you can
(12:48):
most certainly manage it, and you can manage like medications,
and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists.
So don't see this as like a curve upon your
name if you kind of associate with some of those
other traits. But this kind of leads me to my
next question, like what age do you think our personality
(13:09):
really starts to stick at? What age do you think
we really feel like stuck in who we are?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, so I would say there's not an age at
which we start to stick and who we are. So
that used to be the thinking this, Like influential psychologist
named William James had this infamous sort of quote that
like the characters set like plaster by the age of thirty,
and which is relevant for your podcasts for people in
(13:36):
their twenties. So, I mean even he said, like in
your twenties, you can still change, but kind of more
recent research has found that that's not really true, that
people kind of continue to change throughout their lives even naturally,
even if you don't really do anything to try to
change your personality. Is gonna kind of shift from decade
(13:58):
to decade. You're going to be a different person. And
you know when you have kids and like a job
than you were in college then you were in high school,
you know, And that is like freeing and it's kind
of scary, but it's also kind of nice that like
you're not gonna be like if you're not crazy about
something you know about yourself or about your life, you're
(14:18):
not stuck with it forever.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
That is very very free and even like as we
get into like older age as well. Something that I like,
the statistic that I really like to talk about is
how by the time people reach like sixty and seventy,
symptoms of mental illness really decline, which I don't know.
I've always like thought about that and been like, oh,
that sounds great, like way for that, wait for that,
(14:44):
like maybe I'll have ten years of just like bliss.
But it is like a really beautiful thing that you
mentioned this. I hear this a lot. Like another myth
about personality change slash personality stuckness is by the time
you reach twenty five, like your frontal lobe is fully developed.
And I think we kind of think like I, hey,
so like that's it, Like, this is who I'm always
(15:04):
going to be. What evidence did you find like on
the contrary before I like really dive into your personal experiment.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, So so there's two kind of branches of evidence
to the contrary. So first, uh, your frontal lobe being
fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because
we don't have like a lobe in our brain that
is where the personality lives. So like even if they
(15:33):
study like brain changes or you know, like those like
fMRI studies where it's like brains lighting up, those don't
necessarily correlate perfectly with personality necessarily. So there's kind of
two elements to this. The first is that when researchers
have followed people you know, and given them personality tests
(15:56):
over and over across the years, they do find that
people change, you know, they tend to change in certain
ways over time. So, like you mentioned that people become
kind of mentally healthier in old age, neuroticism does go
down naturally across your life. So if you feel like
(16:18):
you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age people
become less so so that sort of just naturally happens.
You don't have to do anything. You don't have to
like take any lexipro that naturally happens for most people.
The other element of this is that if you actually
try to change, it can happen even faster. So there's
(16:41):
been studies that show the people who get therapy, for example,
become less neurotic, and in a short period of time
they become a lot less neurotic neurotic than you would
expect them to having, just like naturally, you know, decline
and neuroticism. And the same with some of the studies
that I cover with my in my book, researchers who
(17:04):
have given people these like challenges. You know, people will say,
I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to
make more friends, and they're like, okay, every day for
or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to
someone new and have coffee with them or have you know,
lunch with them or whatever. And they do maybe like
five to ten challenges like that over a period of time,
(17:26):
they actually find that they do grow an extraversion based
on personality tests that they take at the beginning and
the end. So not only do you naturally change, you
can also change through effort.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So a things like introversion, like I always thought that
they were vary, and they like it's a genetic Oh my,
I don't know, like genetic predisposition, it's temperament, but you're
saying that, actually, no, it's more of a nuts effecta
well being like environment.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Sorry, yeah, so it's both. So, so genetics is responsible
for about forty to sixty percent of our personality. And
even it's not like direct like if you think about
either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either
of them, right, You're probably like you have like elements
of them, but you're not like they're twin like you.
(18:12):
You kind of most people are. I mean usually people
are relieved to hear this, like not exactly like either
either parent, right, so you get a little bit like
you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural
proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right.
But at the same time, there's other there's like this
(18:33):
you know, forty to sixty other percent of personality that
we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's
not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. It's
like it's like kind of that, but it's also like
your friends. It's like, did you go to college, what
kind of job do you have? You know, do you
make an effort to like read self help books. It's
(18:55):
kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb
into yourself that create that other part of personality. So
that's the kind of element that I'm talking about, is
that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are
totally bookish and hate talking to people, you're gonna naturally
be kind of like I feel really introverted. But if
but if you, you know, go into a job in
(19:18):
sales and you talk to people you know all day
and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like
high fives and promotions for being extroverted, like you're gonna
be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Be, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does
kind of work, Like yeah, yeah, absolutely rewarded. See. I
find this really interesting because like my parents are so
totally opposite each other, Like they are the perfect definition
of like opposites attract. Like my dad is like a
stay at home dad and like we call him like
a charity wife. Like he runs like a non for
(19:53):
profit like giving bags to refugee children in Australia, and like,
then my mom is like a like badass like Cee
R and like she has like she is older, like
she is the lowest person, like the lowest neuroticism levels
I've ever seen in an individual, Like I have never
seen that woman break a sweat. She is not anxious
(20:13):
at all, like nothing phases her. And then my dad
is like the complete opposite, and it's like completely like
he's not completely anxious, but he's very anxious and very
existential and very like in his own head about very
deep things. And it's really funny like seeing like me
(20:33):
and my sister's always joked that it was like, you know,
one of us got my mom's jeans and my other
me and my other sister got my dad's jeans, and
it was like damn, like if I could switch, like
I totally.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
But then again it's like me and my sister like
not to like tell her story, but had had very
different approaches to like how he faced neuroticism and like
and other things as well, and like agreeable and all
those things, and like there's definitely has been a difference
in like how we've approached it and how we've changed
as people. So I'm ranting. Really, what I want to
(21:10):
get to is what you found in yourself. But we're
going to take a tiny break and we'll be back
in just a second. Stay tuned. We are back with
Oga Hazan talking about can we change our personality? This
is kind of the crux of this whole interview. What happened? Firstly,
(21:30):
what did you do? And secondly what did you find?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, so that's like the whole book, So let me
just break it down into let's talk about extraversion first,
because I think that is like the easiest to wrap
your head around and also has had the clearest results.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Okay, so extraversion.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Basically the secret to increasing extraversion is to socialize with people.
Some of the other traits are more existential and more
like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think
about things. Extraversion is like very clear cut, go talk
to people, like go do activities. So I signed up
(22:12):
for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for Improv
Sailing Club, a bunch of meetup groups, so which is
like groups of strangers meeting up. Literally, I like throw
a party at my house. I just went out all
the time. I went from basically going out maybe once
(22:34):
a week to going out like pretty much every night
or like not and not like going out drinking, like
although there was a lot of drinking, I get like
like just being around people. And I found that like
almost every time before I went, I dreaded it.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I did not want to go.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
I was like, I hate improv I don't even know
why I'm doing this, it's stupid, Like I don't want
to go. And then almost every time after I would
do it, I felt better. I was like that was
super fun, or like that person in the sailing my
sailboat today was really interesting, or like that was cool,
or like hey, like I got to get whatever a
(23:15):
burger on the way back home, like there was something
that came out of it. Usually that I was like, huh,
that was like a nice break from the day. That
was like a nice way to like liven up the
day a little bit. And I think that's kind of
like the when I talk about increasing extraversion or like
changing your introversion. You can remain an introvert, but just
(23:38):
do like twenty percent more stuff like connect with people
twenty percent more, and there's a little bit of a
mood boost there. Like researchers who are introverts have studied
this concept and have found that like even just connecting
with people a little bit, and it doesn't mean that
you have to be like the life of the party.
Like I think people assume extraversion means like you're super
(24:03):
talkative and like can't shut up and you know, or
you're always telling jokes. You can like go hang out
with two close friends and like you know, listen more
than you talk and like knit the whole time, and uh,
that's still extraversion, that's you know, still being around people.
So yeah, I for that one, my introversion, my extraversion
(24:24):
did go up. And I think what I took away
from that is that like I do enjoy having fun,
I need to sometimes force myself to have fun, but it's.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Okay to do that.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Like it's okay to be like commit, you know, kind
of to an exercise class or to something else that
doesn't sound super appealing all the time but ends up
being rewarding.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
This is what I always say, Like people will people
will dan maybe like how do I make any friends?
Or like how do I stop feeling like everything is
an effort and I'm like, pick two things to do
awake and do them in the same place at the
same time, and you will meet other people who are
doing this same thing as you, like, whether it is
it an exercise class or like an improv class or
a life drawn class or like social sport. There are
(25:07):
so many people out there who also want to make
friends and who also are like seeking connection, and there's
like no shame about it, either of being like, Okay,
I'm trying to train my brain to like this more,
because you do fall into a habit, like I'm such
an extroverted person. And last week I spent the entire
day at my house and like the entire week like
indoors working, and I had such cabin fever and I
(25:29):
was like, I've just I'm just so depressed, like I
just don't know who I am anymore. And then I
went and did like barefootballs with my friends and I
was like, wow, like life is so beautiful, Like look
at those flowers. It's like, yeah, yeah, giving your brain
what it needs. So extraversion was the one that you
saw an improvement in.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
What about neuroticism, Yeah, so neuroticism I also saw an improvement.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
So neuroticism.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot.
I and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy.
I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it,
and I did not enjoy it after I was done.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It was not like that was really nice. Was like,
thank God, I don't have to do that for another
twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I signed up for a class where we had to
meditate for forty five minutes every day, which is so
long it's literally the longest forty five minutes of your life. However,
it did work. My neuroticism went down, and my anxiety
went down a little bit, but my depression went down
a ton. It went down a lot, like to basically
(26:33):
like not being depressed anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And why that.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Happened, as sort of anyone's guess if I had to
like pose it.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Why that occurred.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's that I did a lot of what's called loving
kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice
to yourself for however long.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And it's usually I do it to like a guide.
It at like a tape. Basically, people don't use tape anymore,
like a recording, like.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
A guided.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, exactly like a guided recording, and it's like, you know,
like like there's like the line that always makes me
cry is like there's you can search the whole universe
for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness
than you are yourself and not find anyone.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And it's like like oh yeah, you're.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Just like, oh my god, what this tape is.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
So it's it's Sharon Salzburg and I use the ten
Percent Happier app for meditation.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Oh I love that app. Yeah, yeah, up from the
Yale Is it from the Yale person?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
No, I think you're thinking of jud Brewer. The the
ten percent Happier is Dan Harris.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Oh yeah Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes, he does a
podcast as well.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think, yes, yeah, I mean everyone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Everyone has a podcast. Is so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, but but he Yeah, but it actually like really worked,
and I think like there's something about like repeating that
I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried
to like hammer home the self compassion.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And I think it worked. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Wow, see I get this like meditation. I've never met
someone who's been like I'm really into it all the time.
Like I do feel like you kind of have to
drag yourself into it, kicking and screaming. It's like when
you have to like get a needle when you're like
I really don't want to do this, or like go
to the dentist to like go to the doctor, and
then you feel amazing, like oh wow, that pain's gone.
(28:37):
Like that's what meditation sounds like. And it's just like
discipline towards your soul, right in the same way to
exercise your body, like you're exercising your mind, even if
it's like tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in
the moment, like it feels gives you strength later on,
I think it.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
What it did is made me less afraid of my
negative emotions. So you're sitting there like sometimes for hours
and you're just like your mind is like going and going,
and it's silence, you know. And I think what it
does is like for me at least, I don't know
if this is like correct, but for me at least,
it made me like inevitably like negative feelings will come
(29:18):
up during that, but it was sort of just like
it's okay, Like nothing bad is really happening right now.
You're literally sitting in a room in your house on
a cushion, like meditating, but you kind of have you
still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions if
you're someone who's prone to neuroticism.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
But I don't know, it just lets you like kind
of not be as.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Thrown off by them or like because bad things are
still I mean my meditation teacher would say this all
the time, like things happen that you don't like, which
is like very simple, but it's like oh yeah, and
like you're just you're gonna have to deal with that
for the rest of your life and it's all about you,
know you. You know your mom you mentioned is like so
(30:02):
not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happen to her, but
she thinks about them in a like somehow more zen
way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I would love to as well. It's crazy and she's
had a tough life, like not to give her story,
and I have done an episode with her where she
talks about it, but not even the full extent, like
not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at
her and I can see like there'll be a time
that like me or my my sister will like be
panicking about something or being like, don't you just see
(30:35):
like how terrible this is? And I can literally just
see her looking at me being like no, like trying
really hard to have empathy for me and being like
I just can't do it. Like she she's incredible, and
like she has obviously like learnt what to say, but
she doesn't like feel it in her bones the way
(30:56):
that like my dad would or my sister would, So
she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course.
Like she's pretty incredible. Okay. I want to ask this
question that I think everyone is probably thinking at this point,
you did all these amazing exercises. How long did this last?
As well? Like six months?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
This lasted it a year?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay, A yeah? And when did that experiment end?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I honestly only had a year of book leaves, so
it was just like June of twenty twenty two to
June of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Okay, cool, So like a year, a solid year. Have
you found that you've gone back to your old self since?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
So in some ways but not in others. Since I
did that, I had a baby, and that necessarily like
changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially
in the beginning. But I would say that there are
still a lot of things that I carried through into
even my life as a I guess I'm still a
(31:58):
new parent technically. So one example is like just reaching
out to other moms.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
So it's a very.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Stressful time when you first have a baby, Like it's
just is there's no getting around it. You don't know
what you're doing, and they're very tiny and they cannot
speak to you, and so you're just like, ah, what
do you want? So I kind of made a point
of reaching out to other moms, and like I'm in
a mom's group that's been really supportive.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I also just like.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Really really try to even in day to day life,
if I meet another mom with kids the same age,
I really try to like reach out and at least
see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And
sometimes that means that I and this is not something
I would have done previously. I actually do a lot
of reaching out repeatedly. So like if someone, let's say,
(32:55):
I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's
have coffee, and we have coffee and we both have
a good time. I and then some time elapses and
no one follows up. I might reach out again, even
though it was me the last time too, and then
I might do that like a third time. Like there
are some relationships where I'm just always the person who
organizes things, and that used to really bother me, Like
(33:16):
I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends,
Like I'm gonna move on because they're not putting an
equal effort into organizing things, and like I don't I
don't want that. But I kind of just realized through
this that like everyone has stuff going on, and like
people just don't think about things the same way. They
are maybe swamped in other ways. They're may be like
(33:37):
not as comfortable with reaching out, Like I don't know.
It just made me like a lot less sensitive. I
guess about these like rules of social interaction that I
had previously thought were like iron.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Like laws, you know. So that's been one thing that
I've noticed.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Like yesterday, we went on a playdate to this woman
who I barely knew, just because I was like, I'm
really bored in if I have to like sing Baby
Beluga one more time, and I might, so it's like
let's go over to you Chan's house and yeah, that's
what we did and it was great, you know, So
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
I think it's like a really interesting like how you
can it's quite personal, but like whether you would have
been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done
this experiment like the year before you had a baby,
and like maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's
like wow, like in this weird way, like maybe you
were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge
(34:35):
on planet Earth. Like I heard this quotes like when
you become a parent, you have to use every single
skill that you've ever put on a resume, like and
the ones that you haven't. So it be interesting to
see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very confident,
capable mother if you hadn't have done this, but it's yeah,
it's fascinating, Like I would have loved to see a
control group.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I know I'm not very confident or capable as it is,
but I will say that I think that doing.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
This experiment helped me decide to have a baby.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Okay, cool, interesting.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Like it helped me get more comfortable with the idea
of having a baby.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah, because babies, listen, I don't have one. But they
seem like a lot of work, and they seem like
they will put you in like a state, like they
will bring up all those challenges. So you know, the
other day, this is like so funny, But I didn't
realize you can't give babies.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Water, not until six months.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
See, guys, I don't know if any of you did
know that listener to the podcast, but I was like, wow,
if I had a kid right now and no one
had told me that, like that would have been real problem.
Like what are the other things that I don't know
about this? Like? Ready, you end up?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
You end up googling. Don't worry about that stuff. Don't
don't worry about it right now. It's honestly you will.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Let you will be googling. You will google.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
The internet has answers, you google everything. No one knows
any of this stuff before they start.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Let me hear you, guys, And I think it will
be a long time. But I've got one final question
for you. I'm gonna ask every single guest on the
podcast the same question. What advice would you have for
listeners in their twenties, Like, what's one thing that you'd
wish you'd known earlier? And it doesn't have to be
about what we talked about today.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I would say that my advice for people in their
twenties is that it's okay to just pursue what you want.
You don't have to do something that seems practical or
like what other people want you to do, or just
because you've always been doing it. You can It's a
(36:41):
time of life when you can completely pick the thing
that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want
in the world, and just go at it with full force.
That's what I would I would recommend doing.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I also love that. I love that piece of advice.
I would give that advice myself. Oh good, which is brilliant.
Which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for
coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually,
I want to give a shout out to an article
that you wrote that I think is really would be
really amazing. It's called the Joy of Underperforming. I think
you wrote it like a couple of years ago, maybe,
(37:17):
But if you guys are looking for further listening, for
further reading, I'm sorry Olgraman and not even let you
give your own recommendations. I will in a second, but
I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow,
this is incredible for people in their twenties. But well,
it's great, but where else can can they find you?
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah? So our website is the Atlantic dot com and
I'm a writer there. I can find me and all
my brilliant colleagues there, and you can find my book,
which is called Me but Better wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
I'm very excited for it to come out. Comes out today.
If you're listening to this the day that this is released,
you can literally go and pre order a copy. And
I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having
already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like,
there's much more there and so much more science and
research and just like fascinating tidbits. So thank you so
much Olga for coming on the show. And as always,
(38:08):
if there is someone that you know who would like
to listen to this episode who you think would be
interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link.
Make sure that you are following along. If you want
to read us five stars, that would be very much appreciated.
Until next time, thank you for listening, and stay kind,
be safe, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very
(38:29):
very soon
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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