March 21, 2025 • 54 mins
Even in the most perfect of relationships we can have doubts; even when everything is happy and wonderful, questions can still linger in the back of our mind like 'is this person really right for me, should we break up, should I be feeling this way?' This feeling is a symptom of relationship anxiety or relationship OCD and it can be debilitating.
In today's episode we are joined by the incredible and wise Rebecca Ore to discuss:
- What is relationship OCD and why does it occur
- How it differs from typical OCD
- Anxious attachment & relationship OCD
- Which doubts to listen to and which to ignore
- How to manage relationship guilt and regret
- How to confront an anxious relationship thought + so much more
You can find Rebecca here: @rebeccaorecoaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode, as we, of course break down
the very important psychology of our twenties. I've got a question.
Have you ever had that feeling of meeting someone amazing,
(00:24):
feeling like this relationship you know it could really go somewhere,
or it's already going somewhere. You're happy, you're fulfilled, your
friends and your family they love this person, and then
out of nowhere, this kind of small feeling starts to
creep in. It's this feeling of is this person really
the one? Is this part of our relationship normal? Should
(00:45):
I be having these doubts? Is this a sign we
shouldn't be together? It can definitely send you spiraling in
confusion and facing all of these annoying questions leaves you
doubting whether it is your anxiety or you're into about
this relationship. And this, my lovely listeners, is something that
we call relationship anxiety or relationship OCD. And for those
(01:08):
of us in our twenties, when you know we're kind
of experiencing our first really long term important relationships. It
can be a real pain, and it can really ruin
otherwise perfect and magical situations and magical experiences, and it
can also leave us in a real negative thought spiral.
So today we are going to break down exactly why
(01:31):
this occurs, why we have been taught all these false
notions of what a perfect relationship should look like, and
when you should be doubting your doubts rather than accepting
them at face value. We also have the privilege to
be joined by an incredible relationship coach, Rebecca Or, who
specializes in helping people find relationships that feel confident and secure.
(01:55):
She is perfect for this episode. Welcome Rebecca, Ah, thank
you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I'm
so excited, and you are hearing a little UK accent.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Everyone.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
We had to we had to arrange this from across
the oceans and oh my gosh, the UK to Australian
time zone is a violent change, like there is no time.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It works. I have some Australian clients and it is.
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
She's used to it then, but I'm honestly I'm used
to it, used to it. When I heard what you
have to say about relationship OCD. I was like, everyone
in their twenties needs to hear this advice. So before
we get into that advice, can you quickly introduce yourself
to the listeners of the psychology of your twenties?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, of course, So, as said, I am Rebecca, and
I'm a relationship coach that specializes in helping people with
anxieties and insecurities in that relationship. So what I do
is help people kind of take back control of their
brains create relationships that feel secure and confident. And really
it's a lot about their relationship with themselves, being able
(03:00):
to trust themselves, being able to manage their own minds,
kind of challenge those fearful thoughts that their brain is
constantly offering to them, and yeah, and really just feel
back in control. And the reason I got into doing
this was because I spent the majority of my teenagers
and my twenties just feeling absolutely terrified in relationships, just
(03:23):
so scared all of the time. And this is why
the work I do is so so important to me,
because basically I went through my own kind of journey
with this work, with seeking out, you know, expert help
and listening to podcasts and going to therapy and reading
all the books and all these things, and yeah, I
finally found kind of a set of tools, a set
(03:45):
of concepts, a structure that really helped me to go
out of this kind of spiral. And yeah, that made
me realize that I need to help other people do this.
So it's worked that I'm really really passionate about. And
when I say I can relate to everyone I coach,
it's literally like coaching a past version of me in
every session.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
You know, you are the kind of like the kind
of guests that I love having on the show when
it's someone who is not only an expert, but has
a lived experience with the things we're talking about. Not
to like hate on anyone who's trying to help people,
but I just find that you can only get so
deep if you haven't been through it yourself. Yeah, you
can only really understand the extreme anxiety that comes with
(04:28):
relationship OCD if you've experienced it yourself. We have to
talk about this topic though, because some people may not
be familiar with relationship OCD. Can you give me a
brief description of what it is and maybe what it
feels like? Also, something I need to bring up. It
has OCD in the name, of course, but I think people,
(04:52):
if you're thinking about the typical kind of OCD that
we might talk about, it is quite different to what
I'm assuming most people are imagining. So I'm sure you
will confirm, deny all of those thoughts, or explain them further.
But yes, give us the basics of relationship r OCD.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Relationship OSOD is where people have obsessive compulsive thinking in
their intimate relationships. So it's going to feel like intrusive
thoughts of doubt and anxiety surrounding relationships. And of course
doubt in any relationship is normal, of course it is.
But people with ROCD find that the level of doubt,
(05:31):
that the level of doubt and anxiety is uncontrollable, and
it feels really intrusive, and it feels really distressing. And
what that can look like is constantly debating if the
relationship is right. It looks like a lot of ruminating.
It looks like a lot of monitoring and checking how
they feel. So do I feel in love now?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Oh no, I just felt bored? What does that mean?
Am I? Am I attracted to them enough? It's a
lot of kind of monitoring how they feel. There's a
lot of comparing, so comparing your relationship to other people's relationships,
what you see on TV or on films, social media.
There can be a lot of kind of trying to
(06:13):
control your partner, trying to kind of nitpick, you know,
if we don't want them to be imperfect, We want
them to do but do everything just right so that
we don't have to feel any negative emotion or doubt.
If we can make them do it just right, then
we don't have to feel negative emotion, which we will
end up spiraling on and thinking that means something terrible.
So it can mean that people can be a little
bit not in a malicious way, but that they kind
(06:35):
of want to try and control and micromanage their partner
a little bit. There can be a lot of ruminating
about missing out, you know, am I missing out on
someone better? Being afraid to commit to someone just in
case it doesn't work out, and even to go as
far as people might avoid committing to relationships at all
because they're so afraid to experience this doubt and anxiety.
(06:56):
So yeah, it can be a really hard thing to
experience for me. Although I coach a lot of people
with ROCD. What I really experienced myself is more kind
of kind of I feel like there's two kinds of fears.
There's like the fear of being left, and then there's
the fear of like, I'm not in the right relationship
and you know this relationship is going to end, I
(07:17):
might leave them. For me, I was much more afraid
people were going to leave me. But I think the
phars are so closely linked, and I coach so many
people with these intrusive doubts in their relationship, And yeah,
those were kind of the most common things that we
see time and time again. So I'm sure some of
your listeners can totally relate to at least one or
two of those things.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Oh yeah, And you know what, especially in our twenties,
when we're like I just want to have this great,
big love and I'm so young, and this is the
time when I meant to be meeting people and dating
and exploring. If I'm going to sink my time into
this relationship, it better be the right person, and I
better be one hundred percent short. And I'm going to
(07:59):
say this, like, I'm in such an amazing relationship, I'm
not one hundred percent. Sure, I'm like think I'm ninety
nine point nine percent there, But you are always going
to have doubts, And I actually think that's important because
it causes you to continue to examine your relationship and
to continue to consciously say I do want to be here,
(08:21):
you know what I mean. I think if you never
thought about your relationship at all, it becomes this passive thing.
But we want to find the balance, right. I'm also
assuming from what you've described that a lot of people
do find that they end up self sabotaging relationships, that
a relation like their relationship patterns may be quite self destructive,
(08:43):
that they have a lot of regret around leaving past relationships,
missing that person, being unable to move on. Do you
find that some of your clients will come to you
and say, there was a relationship I had and in
hindsight it was perfect and I can't get them back.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
What am I going to do now?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Like, is that something that happens?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah. I have coached people that have been in that
situation where as we start to unpack their patterns, they realize, oh, wait,
it wasn't them, that it wasn't the relationship that was
the problem. It was my brain, and that can be
a moment where people start to feel loads of regret
and kind of almost shame around that. But I think
it kind of plays into a little bit of what
(09:25):
the kind of underlying thinking error is, which there can
almost be this scarcity around it, like there's this one
right person for me. And I know we're going to
come on to talking about the one the idea of
the one as well, but we almost have this idea
that there's this one person for me, and they're predetermined.
They're like a needle in the haystack that I need
to go find, and therefore, if I've missed them, then
(09:45):
I've missed them, but they've gone. And I think a
big part of snapping out of this ROCD kind of
mentality is there isn't one right person. There are just
billions of imperfect humans on the planet that you could
create an amazing relationsis with if it didn't happen with that
person in the past because your brain wasn't ready for it,
(10:06):
you weren't in the place to have that, or they weren't,
or maybe now you are, but they aren't, maybe they're
now dating someone else. That doesn't mean you've missed but
you're one great chance for love. It means that, Okay,
that person, it wasn't the right time with that person,
and there are other amazing people that you can create
a great relationship with. So I think for me, it's
(10:26):
always coaching them through that scarcity mindset of like that
it's like that kind of there's one slice of pizza
left in the box, or like there's one partner left
on the shelf, like and I've missed out. No, there
are always more amazing partners that we can connect with.
The world is the world is not short of people,
and there are billions of amazing, imperfect, flawed humans that
(10:47):
we get to love. So yeah, I think that's the
way I would coach them around. That is really looking
that scarcity mentality.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
The scarcity mentality in dating right now, as I'm sure
many of my twenty something single people can attest, is wild.
Like it's absolutely wild. It just I saw this like
TikTok the other day, and it's like, if you met
your partner on Hinge, you got like the last chopper
out of Nam, like out of Vietnam, like you got
the last lifeboat off the Titanic. Like it's terrible.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
That's hilarious, I know, and I.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Was like, gosh, no, wonder people feel like they need
to like now, wonder people feel like they can't leave
bad relationships. But also this sense of doubt around choosing
the wrong person because if you've chosen the wrong person,
eventually you'll be single again. And it just seems all
so terrible and bleak, which it isn't. But I'm jumping
the gun because I want to ask you this one question.
(11:41):
I so want to get some of our basics down, pat.
Are there certain people who are more prone to ROCD
relationship OCD than others?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah? So, I think there's so many things that can
impact these kinds of thought patterns, and one is childhood experiences.
You know it you grew up in a family where
maybe you saw a lot of kind of problematic behavior
in a romantic relationship, you know, your mum and dad maybe,
or maybe they went for a really painful divorce and
(12:13):
that was really hard to witness. You know, our brains
are always absorbing beliefs, and we can absorb these beliefs
from childhood that relationships are scary and dangerous, or relationships
aren't safe, relationships will end, relationships are scary, and so
childhood experiences is a huge one. Social conditioning, which I
know we've said as well, like all these messages we
(12:34):
receive about, you know, how relationships should look, the Disney
movies we watched, you know, the rom coms we've seen,
all this kind of social conditioning can really impact the
way we think about it. But I think some people
do just have more anxious tendencies than others due to
their genes, their DNA, and it can be hard to pinpoint.
And I think my advice for clients is to worry
(12:58):
less about why is my brain like this and focus
more on how can I show up with compassion and
care to work with what I've got. You know, if
my brain is absorbed this from somewhere, who knows where
I could have been? Childhood could have been a Disney
movie I watched now I was five, and my prains
really latched onto it, like who knows, Let's just meet
you where you are and learn to guide ourselves through it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Oh, do you know how refreshing that take is. I
love to examine the why, but I think that it's
like it's the why and the now, and you need
to be able to distinguish them because the past, your genetics,
your personality, none of it is like none of it
is I don't want to say incorrectible, none of it
(13:40):
is everything Stone.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, we can end up trapped in this story where
we're like, well, because my dad cheated on my mom
five times, like now I'm really bad at relationships. And
that's not me mocking anyone that says those kinds of
things that I totally understand it. I've been there myself.
But we can end up its trapped in that story
where we identify as I'm a person that's bad at relationships.
(14:04):
I'm a person that can't commit because of this thing.
And when we tell our brains that, our ban's just
like okay, we don't commit. That's who we are. I
know there's no way out of that. So yeah, I
think just being able to recognize what might have contributed
with compassion and then okay, now what we're doing from here?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
This is something I talk about a lot also just
in my personal life with my friends. What is the
story that you're telling yourself that is making your life
less amazing than it could be Because each of us
is telling ourselves a story, maybe it's not about relationship ProCD.
Just think about it in general, that we're telling ourselves
a story around how we're incapable. We're telling ourselves a
(14:45):
story around how we don't deserve certain things, about what
people think about us, about the fact that our relationships
are always going to fail. I again, I'm going to
bring in a pop culture reference here, which I don't
do that often, but there is much pop culture references
to relationship O City. When you look for them. It's
the song The Prophecy by Taylor Swift. Have you heard
(15:07):
this song?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I was like, and it's the sense of like. I
don't know if you've listened to the song If you haven't,
it's such a beautiful song, and it's basically like her
talking about how she's deemed to always have her relationships fail.
And anyone who was anxiously attached to, anyone who struggles
with relationship anxiety, anyone who has just been you know,
(15:29):
unfortunate enough to have had too many relationships end and
end up being lessons, will relate to that song of
feeling like it's a prophecy. This is set and stone,
and it most certainly is not. And we've talked about
the story that we might tell ourselves. What about the
story that society tells us? What what are we told
(15:51):
relationships should look like? And why do you find that
sometimes unhealthy?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Wow? I could talk for but I'll try and streamline
it a little bit for the sake of not sending
everyone to sleep. But yeah, we have absorbed so many
messages from society, from you know, even you know, the
the parents, the caregivers, teachers, that everyone that we've come
into contact with. Our brains are always listening, especially as children,
were always absorbing messages. And you know, we kind of
(16:20):
sold the idea of romantic relationships saving us, you know,
especially as women. And then this is one thing I
want to say as well, is that I think a
lot of women in particular suffer with ro OCD because
they've kind of been taught that their romantic relationship is
a reflection of their worth and value. I mean, and
if we think about historically, you know, at one point
(16:41):
a woman's romantic relationship was literally her lifeline. She didn't
have a bank account, she didn't have a job, she
didn't have a place to live on her own, she
couldn't buy property. A romantic partner was her lifeline. So
although we're not living in that thankfully anymore, you know,
it's still trickled down where women really believe that their
(17:01):
romantic partner is a reflection of their worth in value.
If they don't have a romantic partner, it's because they
aren't worthy invaluable in some way, and if they do,
that person is like this mirror of whether they are
worthy invaluable. And so, yeah, we put a lot of
pressure on our romantic relationships and we often kind of
think of them as coming along to save us. You know,
(17:22):
for a single we think, oh, I'm going to get
this person come along, and they are going to be
this amazing person that's gonna come along and complete me.
They're going to be the other half of me. They're
going to be my soulmate, my one and only, and
then my life will be happily ever after. And if
we think of the Disney films that we've watched, think
of rom coms, you know, we always see them running
off into the sunset together. We don't see the after
(17:44):
part of the happily ever after, you know, we don't
see the part where Cinderella's sat around feeling a bit
bored and frustrated. Because the prince has been late home
every night that week, or you know, we don't see
them maybe start scrolling on their phones, not having much
to say to each other, or the fact that they've
maybe not had sex for a few weeks because you know,
they've been really tired. We don't see the realities of
(18:06):
relationships really played out to us, even on social media,
you know. And this is just, you know, it's kind
of social media's fault. It's just the way that it is.
But we don't post our loads. We only post the highs.
We post the engagement photos, We post those gushy Valentine's
posts when we're all dressed up. Of course, we're not
going to post the mundane moments where we're just sat like,
(18:26):
oh look at me, like sat with my partner, having
nothing to say. We're not going to post that. And
the brain then subconsciously believes that those things don't exist.
The boring, the mundane, the negative just doesn't exist. So
then when we experience it, we think, what has gone wrong?
There must be something wrong If I, yeah, I must
(18:46):
not be normal, if I feel like, look at everyone
else is so happy, so connected, out doing cute things,
having a great time, all the time, and I'm sat
here feeling bored and you know, maybe we're not doing
anything this weekend. Something must be wrong. And so yeah,
one of the expectations we have is for our relationships
to be happy and blissful all of the time, and
(19:07):
we think our partners are supposed to fulfill every single
need that we have. And this is one of the
things that I was saying about kind of people monitoring
their emotions because they've kind of believed that relationships. And
I was actually coaching someone last night who said the
same thing, that, well, relationships are supposed to be happy, right,
And we were like, I said, well, yeah, you're you know,
(19:28):
happiness is one emotion you're feeling your relationship, But what
if you're supposed to also feel other emotions? And it
was like a it was kind of like a light
bulb moment for where she's like, oh, she thought that
happy was the one emotion she was supposed to feel.
So I realized, I'm talking a lot now, I get
but yeah, so we end up if we do feel
a negative emotion like annoyed, irritated, frustrated with our partners,
(19:52):
we start to panic and think I shouldn't be feeling that,
you know, why am I feeling this way? This isn't normal.
I think we're just so scared of doing it wrong
that we become hyper vigilant. You know. We start comparing
are we having sex enough compared to other couples? Are
we going on enough date nights compared to other couples,
as if there is just this one set normal, and
(20:14):
we just want to know that that exists so that
we can then rest assured that we are doing it right. So, yeah,
there's a whole lot of expectations to challenge, and I
think that is one of the biggest things that we
have to do with r OCD is really looking at
what is my unchecked story of how relationships should be?
What is the reality? And you know, and a question
(20:37):
I like to ask people is if you knew that
that was just totally normal, would it be a problem,
And for most of them are like, oh no, if
I knew that it was normal to sometimes go a
few weeks without having sex, Like I don't know, it
wouldn't be a big deal to me at all. Like
people almost need permission for it to be normal, Like
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I think it's because relationships are so nuanced and complex
and complicated and something they're scary, like being in love
is scary. We look to be validated by what other
people are doing because that provides us with some sense
of confidence that we're doing it right. It's like cheating
(21:16):
off the test of someone next to you, thinking that
they know what they're doing and they don't. Actually, And
when you're talking about that client that you know, I
have to feel happy in a relationship, and you're saying, well,
what if your relationship is meant to teach you other things?
You know, as humans? There was a study I read
recently that we have access to thirty four thousand different
(21:38):
kinds of emotions, distinct different emotional states. How boring would
it be if your relationship only fulfilled one? That means
you would have thirty three thousand, nine hundred and ninety
nine other emotions, maybe nine hundred and ninety eight if
we also include love, that you would have to find elsewhere. Yeah,
(22:00):
that doesn't sound particularly enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, I love that you said that as well as
one of the concepts I teach is called the fifty
to fifty, and it's this idea that life is supposed
to be about the fifty to fifty, the fifty to
fifty of positive and negative emotion, and no matter where
you are, no matter where you live, no matter what
job you do, your brain is going to create the
fifty to fifty. I always think of like, you know,
(22:23):
when you think of people that are rich and famous
and have it all that, my brain goes to like
the Kardashians. You only have to watch an episode of
the Kardashians to see that they are living the fifty
to fifty. They have a lot of positive emotion, but
boy do they have negative emotion too. And they have money,
they have cars, they have you know, glamour, they have
the big house. Their brain is still creating the fifty
to fifty. They're going to feel bored, they're going to
(22:44):
feel frustrated, they're going to feel irritated, they're going to
feel disconnected sometimes, and it's really this reminder that it
doesn't matter where you are what you're doing. You know,
on my honeymoon in December, me and my wife were
sat on the beach one day and we were both
just in a terrible mood and we both looked each other.
We were like, this really proves the idea of the
fifty to fifty because we're literally on our honeymoon on
(23:06):
a beach and we're both really irritated. Yeah, in love,
and we're both really irritated, and we were like waiting
for the boat to pick us up, and we were like,
we were just in like a bad mood. And it's
just this idea of no matter which partner you have,
no matter who you pick, your brain is going to
create the negative fifty, which includes boredom, frustration, anxiety, irritation,
all the things you said, like, it's going to give
(23:27):
you the whole spectrum. And when we can know that,
we can we can worry less about Okay, which right
partner is going to give me the exit ramp off
that human experience? Which right partner is going to come
along and save me from that negative fifty? And just
which human do I want to enjoy loving while knowing
my brain's going to create all of the emotions no
(23:48):
matter what.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I love the way you put that, I absolutely
love it. We're going to take a short break here.
Let us have a little break for water, a little
tea break, a thinking break, but we will return very
very shortly Okay, we are back with the wonderful, brilliant
(24:11):
Rebecca or to talk about relationship OCD. So something I
know people are thinking is if my brain is going
to create the fifty to fifty with anyone, when do
I know what doubts to listen to and which ones
to ignore? Because there are people who are just strictly
(24:33):
not right for us. So do you have any tricks
for telling the difference between an anxious thought and an
actual doubt.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, So there's a process that I would encourage people
to try, and it basically starts with self southing because
in the moment where you feel triggered as in anxious,
you feel that kind of urgency. What we've got to
remember is that your brain is seeing whatever the situation
is as dangerous. Your brain thinks that this relationship ending
(25:07):
is dangerous in some way, or you know, this partner
not being right for you is dangerous. It's going to
mean something bad. So it's sounding the alarm, and you
can think of it like maybe an overprotective guard dog
or a faulty smoke alarm. I sometimes use that analogy.
So your brain is sounding the alarm as if you
know there's a lion about to attack you when really, okay,
your partner just might not be a good match for you.
(25:29):
You're not going to die. So we've got to start
with just kind of grounding ourselves because when we're in
that place of heightened anxiety or fear, the rational part
of our brain is not online. The prefrontal cortex, the
part of our brain that is in charge of logical
rational thinking, completely off fine, and it's the primitive brain
doing all the talking. So in these moments you're feeling
(25:50):
really triggered, you know, you're having a lot of doubts.
Just start by first of all, observing the experience. So
I like to do this by just shifting to the
observer of my thoughts. So, Okay, my brain is telling
me this thought, but okay, I'm noticing my partner, you know,
said this, and my brain's making it mean this. Okay,
(26:11):
I'm just noticing my brain is telling me this, So
you know, it's kind of like you're shifting to observing
the story. Then we've got to sit and ground ourselves
back in our body. We got to calm the body
down again, and we're signaling to the primitive brain it's okay, brain,
we're safe. There's no lion, there's no tiger. We're actually safe.
So there's a whole process I teach on kind of
grounding in the body, but it really involves being willing
(26:34):
to sit and feel the emotions, feel the sensations of
that anxiety. Just notice where they are, take a breath
around them. Notice how you can just coexist with them.
They can't hurt you, And try and just be present
with that experience without trying to rush to escape it.
And the client I was coaching last night, we were talking
about this and she always feels like her like it's
(26:54):
an emergency, she has to solve it right away. So
if her brain offers her these doubts, she has to
solve it. She has to know whether it's like, you know,
right round or what she's going to do. So we've
been really working on can she just sit and observe, like, oh, okay,
Like I'm feeling this in my body and this is
the story my brain is telling me. Okay, this isn't
an emergency. It's just you know, a thought and feeling
I'm having. It's okay. When you do that, it's kind
(27:17):
of like you're turning the volume down So what felt
like a nine out of ten on the anxious doubt
scary spiral scale is going to come down to like
a four or a three or even lower. You can
just bring your kind of it's going to turn the
volume down. It's going to bring the sensations down a
little bit. They might not go completely, but it's going
to just make them just kind of more like background noise. Yeah.
(27:38):
From there, that's when you can really check is there
an unchecked story here? Is there an expectation at play
that I need to look at? So I always like
to get my clients to separate out what are the
facts versus what is the story? Just so they can
check is this something I want to keep thinking? So
I had a client that would doubt whether her relationship
was right whenever her and a part sat in silence
(28:01):
on the sofa scrolling on their phone. And so the
fact was they were they were sat in silence, scrolling
on their phones. And I thought her story was, we
should be more connected, we shouldn't ever feel bored, we
should always have something to talk about. So we've got
to challenge those expectations and stories. You know, is that
really true that you should never feel bored ever, just
because you're you have a romantic partner, Like, why, you know,
(28:21):
do you have to be in conversation all the time
to love and care about someone? You know? Is that
really true? Is it possible you can have nothing particular
to say in that moment and still really get on
with that person and think they're great. So it's kind
of like really challenging those misconceptions, those expectations. Is there
a shot at play? And you know who said? Who
(28:42):
said that you should be doing this? Where did that
come from? With that? With that something from childhood? Was
that something from you know social media or the kind
of Disney films you watched, or you know rom coms.
So doing that first is important because you might discover
after going through that process that there's no issue. Actually
it was just your brain, your fearful brain, sound the
(29:03):
alarmed to try and protect you, and actually it's not
not a problem. Other times, you might discover that there
are things that are with deal breaker, that maybe although
you've challenged the story, you still don't really like this thing,
or that there's something that maybe that goes against a
value of yours, that that doesn't feel good in the
relationship and that's going to be so much easier to
say when you're coming from a calm, rational place and
(29:24):
you've challenged those stories first.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I love that where it's like, Okay, we need to
get back to that regulated, calm state before making any
rash decisions. I also think, in my experience, and I've
done a whole episode on this called anxiety versus Intuition,
your intuition about something is not going to demand an
answer from you right away. Your anxiety is urgent. Your
(29:52):
anxiety wants an accelerated solution so that it can return
to an internal state of emotional homeostate. Your intuition will
be like, you make this decision in your own.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Time, right then anxious? Yeah, totally exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And it all comes back to this. I also think
there are some pretty obvious red flags, right And I
think that if you are continuously having this feeling of oh,
this just doesn't feel right and it's making you miserable
in other situations like where it just won't go away
and you are miserable because of it, and you've discussed
(30:32):
it with that person and they and it just isn't
being resolved, Like there is a genuine need that is
not being met for you, So sitting on your phone
with your partner, If you are sitting on the couch
and you're sitting in silence and you're kind of like,
I actually kind of enjoy this, but maybe we shouldn't
be doing this. That's probably an anxious thought. But if
you're sitting on the couch and you turn to your
(30:53):
partner and say, hey, I actually really would want us
to be I really want to connect right now, and
they're like, no, I don't want to leave me alone,
and they're not listening to you. Yeah, like that, I
think that is an actual doubt. It's something that you
can't collaborate through. It's something that like, if there's going
to be this fifty to fifty you want a team member.
(31:13):
You want someone who actually can collaborate with and compromise with.
If that's not them, I think it's not going to work.
What are something?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, sorry, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say. One
of the things I teach as well is this idea
of the want match, And it's this idea that we
have different wants in a relationship and some people will
match those and some people won't. So you know, you
might have a one for a partner that's really physically affectionate,
and they might be someone that doesn't like physical affection.
(31:41):
Well that's not a one match then, And I think, yeah,
when we can really it's kind of like when we
can calm the the overprotective guard dog down, like it's okay, body,
it's okay, We're going to be all right. We can
then drop into that Well, what are the deal breakers
to me? What is the kind of partner I want?
You know, no partner is going to be perfect. This
person isn't going to do it perfectly all the time.
(32:01):
But are we aligned with our values and our want matches?
You know, do we want the same things out of
a relationship. If this person wants to, you know, never
really have sex, that's what they want, but you have
a you know, you have a really strong sex drive
and sex is really important to you. Okay, that might
not be a want match, and that's okay too. So yeah,
I love that you said that, and I think you're right.
When we can kind of drop into that calmness, it
(32:24):
becomes so much easier to decipher and.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
If you have a respect for the other person, it's like, huh,
I just feel like that is also it's just such
a big thing and if there's no respect, that is
a deal breaker you should listen to. I also believe,
and you can correct me on this because you're the expert,
but this is my personal opinion. I also believe that
you don't have to address your doubts right now if
(32:50):
you feel comfortable and stable, you know what I mean.
Like the anxiety again, is this urgent thing. I find
that sometimes with my relationship at Procederer, I'm like, what
if I feel differently in five years and then I've
wasted all this time and there was something five years
ago that I didn't see and we're five years down
the line and I ignored it, and mom my god,
(33:10):
now my whole life is over.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think that is the story. We've got a challenge
as well. I'm sorry to know that. That is why
I hear so much right when people say I'm so
worried that I'm going to regret this in five years time.
I think it's so It's so interesting because if we
think about your brain is constantly telling you stories, and
basically in those moments we're saying I'm afraid that in
(33:32):
five years time, my brain might tell me the story
that I've wasted time, and so I'm really afraid today
that my brain is going to say something to me
in five years time that I won't like. But we
forget that. In five years time, we get to decide
whether we believe that. And I think this is why
one of the things I was thinking of our CD
is we've got to really look at what our brain
is so afraid of underneath this all, Like, Okay, if
(33:55):
you are in this relationship and it ends in five years,
time is scary about that? And I think you know
that there's that thought you said, well, it means I've
wasted time. That's not actually a fact. That is totally
an optional way to think. And you know, I always
think I got married last year and I hope we're
going to stay together forever. But if in five years
(34:17):
time we don't, we break up for whatever reason, I'm
never gonna think, oh, I wasted time, that was the
wrong relationship, and now I need to beat myself up
for that. I'm going to think, no, that was the
total right decision for me in that moment, and that
was a beautiful relationship. And if it ends in five
years time, I get to go and create another great relationship,
(34:38):
And I think that is really what we need to
look at. You know, what is it that you're afraid of?
Is it that you're going to tell yourself you chose
wrong if this relationship ends. Is it that you don't
believe you could handle the breakup. Is it a fear
of getting divorced? Is it you know that you think
that you then won't be able to meet anyone else
at a certain age. Because I think we almost need
(34:58):
to be willing for our relationships to end and know
that we can handle them. But for so many of us,
we see the idea of a relationship ending is failure.
So we think, Okay, in order for me to see
this is a success and believe I'm good at relationships
and I'm doing it right, this relationship has to last forever.
So we almost then start to work backwards and we're like, okay, well,
(35:19):
how do I know that this person's going to be
my forever person? Well, then I need to make sure
that we never argued that we and then we start
to look for all these red flags and it just
it ruins our experience of it versus what if it
didn't need to last forever? Necessarily. And again, I'm married.
It's not me saying that I don't want my marries
to I love if it did, but I'm open to
(35:41):
the possibility that if it ended, I could be okay,
and I wouldn't beat myself up. I wouldn't make it
mean I failed. It wudn't be a failed relationship. It would
be a relationship that lasted, however long it lasted. So
I don't know what you think of that and what
that brings up for you, but that, for me is
a really kind of important piece of this as well.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Wow, I'll tell you what I think about that. Absolutely
amazing advice. I mean, that's incredible advice, and I think
that that is going to change the brain chemistry of
a lot of people saying because it is absolutely true.
It's like, just because a relationship doesn't last forever doesn't
mean it wasn't beautiful, doesn't mean it wasn't right then.
And I think it's so funny You've just unlocked this
(36:21):
in me, Like maybe I think that all that our
doubts are, all that our anxiety is, is our brain
trying to have some insurance against future suffering.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yes, that's it.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
It's just like, okay, Well, if I worry about this
is like my insurance, this is like gonna stop this.
I'm sorry, but your anxiety is going to do nothing
to stop you from suffering in the future. It's just
gonna make you suffer now. And again, there's this huge
study in psychology that basically says we tend to overdramaticize
(36:54):
or intensify how we think we'll feel in the future.
So you're sitting here right now and you're saying, well,
if I don't get the dream job now, in ten years,
I'm going to feel so terrible. Actually, they've done studies
on this and they've found most of the time people
actually feel pretty neutral. We overexaggerate how we think will
feel in the future. And this is the same thing
(37:14):
with relationship. Both Today, your relationship doesn't work out, it
is going to be devastating, but it's your life isn't
going to be over. You will be fine. People, So
many people have made this pilgrimage, have had relationships that
have failed, and they have thought it was absolutely perfect.
So your anxiety doesn't mean one thing or the other.
(37:35):
It's just again, this insurance. But I want to ask
this this follow up question, which is, you're sitting here,
you're doubting your relationship, you're with this amazing person. How
do you deal with the guilt of that? Do you
the guilt of like, well, if I'm having doubts, maybe
they are better off without me.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, oh that's so so common as well. And yeah,
there's so much shame and guilt around this, And yeah,
I think the most important thing to remember is that
you aren't your thoughts. So the thoughts you have of doubt,
of judgment towards your partner, of doubting if you love
them enough, of doubting whether they're right for you, you're not
those thoughts. You're just the observer of those thoughts. Those
(38:17):
thoughts are just random sentences that your brain offers you,
and your brain works through repetition, so the fact that
they come up so often is just because those are
the ones you've been practicing for so so long. But
like your brains, it's like a radio station that loves
to play the same three songs, Like your brain is
going to keep offering you the same thoughts that it
loves to play the most, And that's all these thoughts are.
(38:39):
They're just they've been programmed into your brain from so
many places, maybe past experiences, maybe messages from society, maybe
you know, early traumas that you had, or just these
fears and doubts about what it would mean if the
relationship ended. You know, that is what created these thoughts.
So it's kind of remembering that you just get to
observe the thoughts. You don't need to beat yourself up
(38:59):
for the thoughts being there. You know, having those doubts
isn't a sign that you're a mean, unloving person, or
even that you don't love your partner. It's just a
sign that your brain has been trained to think in
a certain way about relationships right now. So I would
always say, if you notice your feeling guilt, if you're
shaming yourself, try and shift to some self compassion of like,
(39:20):
I'm just a human with a very normal human brain,
and that's okay. You know, my fears and doubts aren't me.
I'm just the observer of them. That's okay.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
There's a new therapeutic practice called radical self compassion that
I came across the through you a few years ago.
Just like change my life. It's like you can you
can promise to unconditionally love someone else. Why can't you
promise to unconditionally love yourself? Yeah, yeah, that's completely possible.
It's also coming back to this. You know, there's a
(39:50):
term OCD is in this is in relationship OCD. OCD
is defined in large part by intrusive thoughts that we
feel like we don't have control all over. Yeah, that
really aligns with this guilt, this sense of like why
am I thinking this? I must be a bad person.
And people with just you know, regular ocedo you will
(40:10):
find that a lot, like why am I thinking about?
Why am I thinking about crashing this car? Why am
I suddenly thinking these terrible things? This means something about me?
And what you're saying is you know, it doesn't, which
I think is really really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, it totally doesn't. It's just the way your brain
has been trained to think right now, and that's okay.
You can just be It's almost like you can think
of your brain as this separate entity from you like it.
You can use different analogies, whether you want to think
of it like a scared, frightened animal, like a little toddler,
you know, like you're the parent of it, like whatever
analogy works for you. But you want to remember that
you are the manager of your mind, You're not your mind,
(40:45):
and really changing your relationship to it is so important.
If every time your brain says something to you, you
freak out and take it super seriously, or you beat
yourself up for having it, or you start to scream
it in why you like this, you know that's not
going to be a very great way of managing it
versus calmly being able to observe what it's saying and
guide it to where you want it to go.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Again, such beautiful advice. Well, we're going to take one
more short break and when we return, we've got some
wonderful listener questions, so stay with us, Okay, Rebecca. This
is something I've been doing recently where you know, there
are just so many niche questions that people have for
(41:26):
me out there about specific topics, and I want to
make sure that we cover everything that they ask So
I've got four listener questions for you today, actually three
listener questions and one bonus question from me. So I'm
going to tell you those right now, starting with this
first question, which is coming from Emma. I feel like
I'm totally madly in love with my partner, and we
(41:49):
have a beautiful relationship except for one thing. I feel
like we cannot communicate and we're always having fights slash
tension over the same things over and over again. Should
I break up with them or do I just accept
this as a flaw that they will always have and
live with it.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I think it was
kind of hard for me to give an answer, in
the sense of knowing more about the context of the
situation would be really important. But also there is no
right answer. You know, there's no expert out there that
can tell you what relationship is right for you or
when to stay or when to go. That's never my job.
But I think before you make a decision to leave
(42:31):
or staying, is just to do some real self reflection
on your own thoughts and feelings and the way you're
showing up. Because if you do decide to leave, this
can just be a really great kind of opportunity for
you to take back control of who you are in relationships.
So you know, noticing, Okay, what is the pattern in
(42:54):
this communication? Is it that I say something, that they
say something, and then you know, I get defensive, then
they get defensive, like you want to just look at
what is going on and really come back to owning
your side of it. You know, Okay, well, how are
you approaching conversations? What is the feelings you're having, and
what are the reoccurring thoughts driving that? You know? Do
you keep making him sighing, enduring an argument, mean he
(43:18):
is unbothered or like whatever? And can we just let's
just challenge some of that so we can see is
there a different way to navigate these moments that might
turn the volume down on them completely, that might make
it less of a problem. So again, that's really hard
to just to coach on him and just a short
pip the answer on a podcast, but I would do
some work on that really looking at, Okay, what are
(43:40):
my thoughts and feelings during these situations and how do
those thoughts and feelings have me showing up? And is
that intentional? Am I really showing up as my intentional
higher self in these moments? And if not, no, there's
no shame there. We all struggle with that from time
to time. But spend a moment just trying to work
on that for yourself. And I always advise getting curious
(44:03):
about what might be going on in our partner's brain too.
You know, if your partner keeps having the same response
to something, let's get curious. You know what might that
be about for them? You know, do they keep hearing
something you're saying and interpreting it as they're not good enough?
You know, me and my wife had this at the
start of our relationship. Whenever I kind of gave some
feedback or some criticism on something, she'd get very defensive.
(44:25):
And when I kind of dropped into that curiosity and
even got curious with her about you know, what is
it that comes up for you when I say that
what's going on for you? It was that she thought
I was saying she was a bad partner and I
wasn't saying that at all, but that was what her
brain was hearing. So I think we can bring that
curiosity and then see what comes out of that. But
but yeah, there's going to be at some point where
(44:46):
you've really worked on yourself in it. You know, you're
doing your best, your showing coupas your best self, and
the other person isn't able to meet you where you
want them to be, or that they're not able to
kind of have the same values with you in terms
of communication and open nurse or you know, emotional regulation,
whatever it is. And I think, yeah, sometimes it's accepting that, Okay,
(45:06):
this is the person for who they are, This is
who they are. Is this someone I want to commit
to loving for the good, the bad, the ugly?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I love that advice. Our second question comes from a
listener called Sean. Sean asks, is there a correlation between
relationship or CD and an anxious attachment style?
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I mean, yeah, I would definitely say so. I think
with anyone with an anxious attachment style, their brain is
kind of programmed to see relationships as dangerous unsafe. They
think that how this person behaves will either create safety
or you know, danger, So they are constantly monitoring, you know,
what's this person doing. What does it mean about me?
(45:50):
If they leave me? What does it mean about me
if they you know, don't, if they're not as interested anymore.
And this this kind of focus on the other person
to create this inner feeling of safety and secure totally,
of course, then relates to r OCD because it's kind
of the same fixation. The brain is seeing that thing
outside of you, that person, that relationship as either safe
(46:10):
or dangerous and trying to work out which it is
and kind of create safety from it. So yeah, I
definitely think there's a there's a correlation there, And for me,
I think whether it's our ROCD, whether it's anxious attachment,
it's really coming back to looking at your internal experience
rather than trying to focus on the external, rather than
(46:31):
focusing on what is my partner doing or not doing?
It's okay, what are the thoughts and feelings I'm having
and what is that bringing up? Like, what is whatever's
going on out here bringing up within me? Because that's
where the safety and security is actually created. It's never
created by the thing outside of us. It's created by
our own thoughts and the beliefs we have. So yeah,
(46:55):
I hope that answers that question. There's definitely a correlation,
And yeah, coming back to whichever it is is, getting
curious about your internal experience is really important.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, excellent advice. So this is the final listener question.
My relationship OCD is so bad that I cannot go
more than a day without thinking that I should break
up with my partner. I love them, but some part
of me really just wants a break from my own thoughts.
(47:24):
Would you recommend taking some time away just to get
my relationship OCAD under order slash regulated, or should I
stick it out and work with them.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
It's a really good question, and I kind of want
to say that there's no right or wrong. If you
feel like you just really need a break, do it.
You know, you know what's right for you. Let yourself
be the guide of that. But one thing I will
say is that often when we're experiencing an emotion we
don't like, like anxiety, we think the solution is to
(47:57):
remove the external thing that we're blaming for causing it.
So with RCD, we think anxious attachment, it's the partner.
We think, let's remove them and then I won't have
to have these thoughts and feelings. And there's some truth
in that. You know, if that's the thing that triggers
the thoughts and feelings, okay, you're probably going to get
some relief. But what we don't really realize is that
well that those thoughts and feelings are still going to
(48:18):
be there the minute we go back to the relationship
or the minute we start another relationship. You know, I've
seen so many people leave relationships thinking, Okay, this partner
was the problem. I'm going to leave, and then they
have the same anxious, doubtful thoughts and the next one
and they're like, oh damn it. Like it turns out
changing the partner didn't really work. So my advice, if
you feel like you're able, if you don't feel like
you know you're at a real burnt out place with it,
(48:40):
that you just need the break, take that if you
need it. But I would also consider what if instead
of trying to escape the thoughts, what if I could
work on changing my relationship to them. So if your
brain keeps offering you the thought this relationship is wrong
for me, I should end this relationship. You want to
start changing your relationship to that thought, So when it
(49:00):
comes up, it'd be like, oh, there's my brain's favorite
story again. I'm noticing my brain is offering me that
story again, that this relationship is wrong for me. Interesting, Like,
here's my brain's favorite story to tell me right now,
and kind of change how seriously you're taking it? Consider
how does it make sense that your brain is offering
(49:20):
this to you? Oh, it makes total sense. My brain
wants to keep going back here because it's terrified of
this relationship being wrong for me, or it's terrified of
me ever having to go for a breakup in five
years time. Okay, so it makes sense that my brain
keeps wanting to offer me these thoughts. So there's so
much more work you can do, and that there's different
kind of tools you can use for diffusing thoughts. There's
(49:43):
things that you can kind of sing the intrusive thought
to yourself that kind of lightens the mood of it.
There's things like kind of seeing the thought coming from this,
like separate voice from you. That there's different things you
can do. But that would be my advice to you
is how can you make the occur of this thought
less of a problem? Because what that's going to do
(50:04):
is turn down the volume on it altogether. It's going
to seem like less of a problem, and from there
your anxiety is going to come down a lot as well.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
This final question is for me, and I ask every
single guest on the show this question, what is one
piece of advice you'd have for anyone in their twenties
that has nothing to do with what we talked about today.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Well, the thing I was going to say was change
our relationship to our thoughts, but I guess I can't
say that we've got nothing.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
It's a bit of a honestly.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, I know it's difficult, and yeah, honestly, then the
piece of advice I'd give to anyone in their twenties
is just to go easy on themselves. I know that
sounds like such a basic thing to say, but I
think sometime it does kind of tie into what we're
talking about. But we have so much pressure from things
we see on social media, from expectations maybe our parents
(50:58):
have a boss, from what our you know, friends are doing,
and I think just remembering that you know, life is
supposed to be fun, that you know, you can actually
change so much of your experience of what you're going
through in any situation by just lightening up and being
a little bit more of a friend to yourself about it,
(51:20):
you know, offering yourself that compassion, being your own biggest cheerleader,
and remembering that you know that there's nothing that could
happen that you couldn't be equipped to handle. And that
is something I really focus on a lot with my
own clients, is looking at whatever that theor is that
worst case scenario, and considering, you know, how could I
(51:41):
feel empowered to show up to handle that if it happened,
you know, what would I want to think and feel
if that happened. So yeah, I think kind of a
mixed bag of it. Advice that of course, that's always
going to say. Your relationship to your thoughts and changing
that is so so important, but also working on having
more of that lighthearted, compassionate, you know, kind of supportive
(52:04):
relationship with yourself is such a game changer. And if
you can master that in your twenties, your thirties, your forties,
it's gonna all be great. If you can work on
that relationship with you where you know, I'm going to
have my own back no matter what happens. You know,
it's gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
That's such a resounding, beautiful way to finish this episode.
I want to thank you so much for coming on.
I'm going to leave all of your links below. But
where can people find you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Amazing. So I'm on Instagram mainly, so you can find
me out Rebecca or coaching, so that's Rebecca and then
O r E Coaching. You can also can find me
on my podcast which is Master Your Relationship Mind Drama
And yeah, I'll I'll send you all the links to
the website and things like that. But yeah, it's Instagram
on my podcast mainly where people can come find me
(52:54):
if they want to know more about thought work and
managing their thoughts and managing their anxiety. I lot about
that on the podcast as well.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
I know your podcast is actually the perfect If this
is an episode that you really related to go and
check out Rebecca's podcast because there is so much advice there.
But as always, if you enjoyed this episode as well,
share it with a friend who might need to hear it.
Leave a five star review. Wherever you are listening, make
sure you're following along, and make sure you're following along
(53:22):
on Instagram. At that psychology podcast, It's where I got
the listener questions today. It's where I love to engage
with you all. If you've made it this far into
the episode, Hello Lucky, Lucky Lucky. I want you to
leave a little magic crystal ball emoji in the comments
because that's what we think our relationship OCD is and
it's not. So it's also a great way to hear
(53:44):
they listeners of that. Yeah, who's listened this far? And
as always, we will be back next week. Until then,
stay safe, please be kind, in the theme of today's episode,
be gentle with yourself, and we will talk very very soon.
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode, as we, of course break down
the very important psychology of our twenties. I've got a question.
Have you ever had that feeling of meeting someone amazing,
(00:24):
feeling like this relationship you know it could really go somewhere,
or it's already going somewhere. You're happy, you're fulfilled, your
friends and your family they love this person, and then
out of nowhere, this kind of small feeling starts to
creep in. It's this feeling of is this person really
the one? Is this part of our relationship normal? Should
(00:45):
I be having these doubts? Is this a sign we
shouldn't be together? It can definitely send you spiraling in
confusion and facing all of these annoying questions leaves you
doubting whether it is your anxiety or you're into about
this relationship. And this, my lovely listeners, is something that
we call relationship anxiety or relationship OCD. And for those
(01:08):
of us in our twenties, when you know we're kind
of experiencing our first really long term important relationships. It
can be a real pain, and it can really ruin
otherwise perfect and magical situations and magical experiences, and it
can also leave us in a real negative thought spiral.
So today we are going to break down exactly why
(01:31):
this occurs, why we have been taught all these false
notions of what a perfect relationship should look like, and
when you should be doubting your doubts rather than accepting
them at face value. We also have the privilege to
be joined by an incredible relationship coach, Rebecca Or, who
specializes in helping people find relationships that feel confident and secure.
(01:55):
She is perfect for this episode. Welcome Rebecca, Ah, thank
you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I'm
so excited, and you are hearing a little UK accent.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Everyone.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
We had to we had to arrange this from across
the oceans and oh my gosh, the UK to Australian
time zone is a violent change, like there is no time.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It works. I have some Australian clients and it is.
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
She's used to it then, but I'm honestly I'm used
to it, used to it. When I heard what you
have to say about relationship OCD. I was like, everyone
in their twenties needs to hear this advice. So before
we get into that advice, can you quickly introduce yourself
to the listeners of the psychology of your twenties?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, of course, So, as said, I am Rebecca, and
I'm a relationship coach that specializes in helping people with
anxieties and insecurities in that relationship. So what I do
is help people kind of take back control of their
brains create relationships that feel secure and confident. And really
it's a lot about their relationship with themselves, being able
(03:00):
to trust themselves, being able to manage their own minds,
kind of challenge those fearful thoughts that their brain is
constantly offering to them, and yeah, and really just feel
back in control. And the reason I got into doing
this was because I spent the majority of my teenagers
and my twenties just feeling absolutely terrified in relationships, just
(03:23):
so scared all of the time. And this is why
the work I do is so so important to me,
because basically I went through my own kind of journey
with this work, with seeking out, you know, expert help
and listening to podcasts and going to therapy and reading
all the books and all these things, and yeah, I
finally found kind of a set of tools, a set
(03:45):
of concepts, a structure that really helped me to go
out of this kind of spiral. And yeah, that made
me realize that I need to help other people do this.
So it's worked that I'm really really passionate about. And
when I say I can relate to everyone I coach,
it's literally like coaching a past version of me in
every session.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
You know, you are the kind of like the kind
of guests that I love having on the show when
it's someone who is not only an expert, but has
a lived experience with the things we're talking about. Not
to like hate on anyone who's trying to help people,
but I just find that you can only get so
deep if you haven't been through it yourself. Yeah, you
can only really understand the extreme anxiety that comes with
(04:28):
relationship OCD if you've experienced it yourself. We have to
talk about this topic though, because some people may not
be familiar with relationship OCD. Can you give me a
brief description of what it is and maybe what it
feels like? Also, something I need to bring up. It
has OCD in the name, of course, but I think people,
(04:52):
if you're thinking about the typical kind of OCD that
we might talk about, it is quite different to what
I'm assuming most people are imagining. So I'm sure you
will confirm, deny all of those thoughts, or explain them further.
But yes, give us the basics of relationship r OCD.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Relationship OSOD is where people have obsessive compulsive thinking in
their intimate relationships. So it's going to feel like intrusive
thoughts of doubt and anxiety surrounding relationships. And of course
doubt in any relationship is normal, of course it is.
But people with ROCD find that the level of doubt,
(05:31):
that the level of doubt and anxiety is uncontrollable, and
it feels really intrusive, and it feels really distressing. And
what that can look like is constantly debating if the
relationship is right. It looks like a lot of ruminating.
It looks like a lot of monitoring and checking how
they feel. So do I feel in love now?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Oh no, I just felt bored? What does that mean?
Am I? Am I attracted to them enough? It's a
lot of kind of monitoring how they feel. There's a
lot of comparing, so comparing your relationship to other people's relationships,
what you see on TV or on films, social media.
There can be a lot of kind of trying to
(06:13):
control your partner, trying to kind of nitpick, you know,
if we don't want them to be imperfect, We want
them to do but do everything just right so that
we don't have to feel any negative emotion or doubt.
If we can make them do it just right, then
we don't have to feel negative emotion, which we will
end up spiraling on and thinking that means something terrible.
So it can mean that people can be a little
bit not in a malicious way, but that they kind
(06:35):
of want to try and control and micromanage their partner
a little bit. There can be a lot of ruminating
about missing out, you know, am I missing out on
someone better? Being afraid to commit to someone just in
case it doesn't work out, and even to go as
far as people might avoid committing to relationships at all
because they're so afraid to experience this doubt and anxiety.
(06:56):
So yeah, it can be a really hard thing to
experience for me. Although I coach a lot of people
with ROCD. What I really experienced myself is more kind
of kind of I feel like there's two kinds of fears.
There's like the fear of being left, and then there's
the fear of like, I'm not in the right relationship
and you know this relationship is going to end, I
(07:17):
might leave them. For me, I was much more afraid
people were going to leave me. But I think the
phars are so closely linked, and I coach so many
people with these intrusive doubts in their relationship, And yeah,
those were kind of the most common things that we
see time and time again. So I'm sure some of
your listeners can totally relate to at least one or
two of those things.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Oh yeah, And you know what, especially in our twenties,
when we're like I just want to have this great,
big love and I'm so young, and this is the
time when I meant to be meeting people and dating
and exploring. If I'm going to sink my time into
this relationship, it better be the right person, and I
better be one hundred percent short. And I'm going to
(07:59):
say this, like, I'm in such an amazing relationship, I'm
not one hundred percent. Sure, I'm like think I'm ninety
nine point nine percent there, But you are always going
to have doubts, And I actually think that's important because
it causes you to continue to examine your relationship and
to continue to consciously say I do want to be here,
(08:21):
you know what I mean. I think if you never
thought about your relationship at all, it becomes this passive thing.
But we want to find the balance, right. I'm also
assuming from what you've described that a lot of people
do find that they end up self sabotaging relationships, that
a relation like their relationship patterns may be quite self destructive,
(08:43):
that they have a lot of regret around leaving past relationships,
missing that person, being unable to move on. Do you
find that some of your clients will come to you
and say, there was a relationship I had and in
hindsight it was perfect and I can't get them back.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
What am I going to do now?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Like, is that something that happens?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah. I have coached people that have been in that
situation where as we start to unpack their patterns, they realize, oh, wait,
it wasn't them, that it wasn't the relationship that was
the problem. It was my brain, and that can be
a moment where people start to feel loads of regret
and kind of almost shame around that. But I think
it kind of plays into a little bit of what
(09:25):
the kind of underlying thinking error is, which there can
almost be this scarcity around it, like there's this one
right person for me. And I know we're going to
come on to talking about the one the idea of
the one as well, but we almost have this idea
that there's this one person for me, and they're predetermined.
They're like a needle in the haystack that I need
to go find, and therefore, if I've missed them, then
(09:45):
I've missed them, but they've gone. And I think a
big part of snapping out of this ROCD kind of
mentality is there isn't one right person. There are just
billions of imperfect humans on the planet that you could
create an amazing relationsis with if it didn't happen with that
person in the past because your brain wasn't ready for it,
(10:06):
you weren't in the place to have that, or they weren't,
or maybe now you are, but they aren't, maybe they're
now dating someone else. That doesn't mean you've missed but
you're one great chance for love. It means that, Okay,
that person, it wasn't the right time with that person,
and there are other amazing people that you can create
a great relationship with. So I think for me, it's
(10:26):
always coaching them through that scarcity mindset of like that
it's like that kind of there's one slice of pizza
left in the box, or like there's one partner left
on the shelf, like and I've missed out. No, there
are always more amazing partners that we can connect with.
The world is the world is not short of people,
and there are billions of amazing, imperfect, flawed humans that
(10:47):
we get to love. So yeah, I think that's the
way I would coach them around. That is really looking
that scarcity mentality.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
The scarcity mentality in dating right now, as I'm sure
many of my twenty something single people can attest, is wild.
Like it's absolutely wild. It just I saw this like
TikTok the other day, and it's like, if you met
your partner on Hinge, you got like the last chopper
out of Nam, like out of Vietnam, like you got
the last lifeboat off the Titanic. Like it's terrible.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
That's hilarious, I know, and I.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Was like, gosh, no, wonder people feel like they need
to like now, wonder people feel like they can't leave
bad relationships. But also this sense of doubt around choosing
the wrong person because if you've chosen the wrong person,
eventually you'll be single again. And it just seems all
so terrible and bleak, which it isn't. But I'm jumping
the gun because I want to ask you this one question.
(11:41):
I so want to get some of our basics down, pat.
Are there certain people who are more prone to ROCD
relationship OCD than others?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah? So, I think there's so many things that can
impact these kinds of thought patterns, and one is childhood experiences.
You know it you grew up in a family where
maybe you saw a lot of kind of problematic behavior
in a romantic relationship, you know, your mum and dad maybe,
or maybe they went for a really painful divorce and
(12:13):
that was really hard to witness. You know, our brains
are always absorbing beliefs, and we can absorb these beliefs
from childhood that relationships are scary and dangerous, or relationships
aren't safe, relationships will end, relationships are scary, and so
childhood experiences is a huge one. Social conditioning, which I
know we've said as well, like all these messages we
(12:34):
receive about, you know, how relationships should look, the Disney
movies we watched, you know, the rom coms we've seen,
all this kind of social conditioning can really impact the
way we think about it. But I think some people
do just have more anxious tendencies than others due to
their genes, their DNA, and it can be hard to pinpoint.
And I think my advice for clients is to worry
(12:58):
less about why is my brain like this and focus
more on how can I show up with compassion and
care to work with what I've got. You know, if
my brain is absorbed this from somewhere, who knows where
I could have been? Childhood could have been a Disney
movie I watched now I was five, and my prains
really latched onto it, like who knows, Let's just meet
you where you are and learn to guide ourselves through it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Oh, do you know how refreshing that take is. I
love to examine the why, but I think that it's
like it's the why and the now, and you need
to be able to distinguish them because the past, your genetics,
your personality, none of it is like none of it
is I don't want to say incorrectible, none of it
(13:40):
is everything Stone.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, we can end up trapped in this story where
we're like, well, because my dad cheated on my mom
five times, like now I'm really bad at relationships. And
that's not me mocking anyone that says those kinds of
things that I totally understand it. I've been there myself.
But we can end up its trapped in that story
where we identify as I'm a person that's bad at relationships.
(14:04):
I'm a person that can't commit because of this thing.
And when we tell our brains that, our ban's just
like okay, we don't commit. That's who we are. I
know there's no way out of that. So yeah, I
think just being able to recognize what might have contributed
with compassion and then okay, now what we're doing from here?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
This is something I talk about a lot also just
in my personal life with my friends. What is the
story that you're telling yourself that is making your life
less amazing than it could be Because each of us
is telling ourselves a story, maybe it's not about relationship ProCD.
Just think about it in general, that we're telling ourselves
a story around how we're incapable. We're telling ourselves a
(14:45):
story around how we don't deserve certain things, about what
people think about us, about the fact that our relationships
are always going to fail. I again, I'm going to
bring in a pop culture reference here, which I don't
do that often, but there is much pop culture references
to relationship O City. When you look for them. It's
the song The Prophecy by Taylor Swift. Have you heard
(15:07):
this song?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I was like, and it's the sense of like. I
don't know if you've listened to the song If you haven't,
it's such a beautiful song, and it's basically like her
talking about how she's deemed to always have her relationships fail.
And anyone who was anxiously attached to, anyone who struggles
with relationship anxiety, anyone who has just been you know,
(15:29):
unfortunate enough to have had too many relationships end and
end up being lessons, will relate to that song of
feeling like it's a prophecy. This is set and stone,
and it most certainly is not. And we've talked about
the story that we might tell ourselves. What about the
story that society tells us? What what are we told
(15:51):
relationships should look like? And why do you find that
sometimes unhealthy?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Wow? I could talk for but I'll try and streamline
it a little bit for the sake of not sending
everyone to sleep. But yeah, we have absorbed so many
messages from society, from you know, even you know, the
the parents, the caregivers, teachers, that everyone that we've come
into contact with. Our brains are always listening, especially as children,
were always absorbing messages. And you know, we kind of
(16:20):
sold the idea of romantic relationships saving us, you know,
especially as women. And then this is one thing I
want to say as well, is that I think a
lot of women in particular suffer with ro OCD because
they've kind of been taught that their romantic relationship is
a reflection of their worth and value. I mean, and
if we think about historically, you know, at one point
(16:41):
a woman's romantic relationship was literally her lifeline. She didn't
have a bank account, she didn't have a job, she
didn't have a place to live on her own, she
couldn't buy property. A romantic partner was her lifeline. So
although we're not living in that thankfully anymore, you know,
it's still trickled down where women really believe that their
(17:01):
romantic partner is a reflection of their worth in value.
If they don't have a romantic partner, it's because they
aren't worthy invaluable in some way, and if they do,
that person is like this mirror of whether they are
worthy invaluable. And so, yeah, we put a lot of
pressure on our romantic relationships and we often kind of
think of them as coming along to save us. You know,
(17:22):
for a single we think, oh, I'm going to get
this person come along, and they are going to be
this amazing person that's gonna come along and complete me.
They're going to be the other half of me. They're
going to be my soulmate, my one and only, and
then my life will be happily ever after. And if
we think of the Disney films that we've watched, think
of rom coms, you know, we always see them running
off into the sunset together. We don't see the after
(17:44):
part of the happily ever after, you know, we don't
see the part where Cinderella's sat around feeling a bit
bored and frustrated. Because the prince has been late home
every night that week, or you know, we don't see
them maybe start scrolling on their phones, not having much
to say to each other, or the fact that they've
maybe not had sex for a few weeks because you know,
they've been really tired. We don't see the realities of
(18:06):
relationships really played out to us, even on social media,
you know. And this is just, you know, it's kind
of social media's fault. It's just the way that it is.
But we don't post our loads. We only post the highs.
We post the engagement photos, We post those gushy Valentine's
posts when we're all dressed up. Of course, we're not
going to post the mundane moments where we're just sat like,
(18:26):
oh look at me, like sat with my partner, having
nothing to say. We're not going to post that. And
the brain then subconsciously believes that those things don't exist.
The boring, the mundane, the negative just doesn't exist. So
then when we experience it, we think, what has gone wrong?
There must be something wrong If I, yeah, I must
(18:46):
not be normal, if I feel like, look at everyone
else is so happy, so connected, out doing cute things,
having a great time, all the time, and I'm sat
here feeling bored and you know, maybe we're not doing
anything this weekend. Something must be wrong. And so yeah,
one of the expectations we have is for our relationships
to be happy and blissful all of the time, and
(19:07):
we think our partners are supposed to fulfill every single
need that we have. And this is one of the
things that I was saying about kind of people monitoring
their emotions because they've kind of believed that relationships. And
I was actually coaching someone last night who said the
same thing, that, well, relationships are supposed to be happy, right,
And we were like, I said, well, yeah, you're you know,
(19:28):
happiness is one emotion you're feeling your relationship, But what
if you're supposed to also feel other emotions? And it
was like a it was kind of like a light
bulb moment for where she's like, oh, she thought that
happy was the one emotion she was supposed to feel.
So I realized, I'm talking a lot now, I get
but yeah, so we end up if we do feel
a negative emotion like annoyed, irritated, frustrated with our partners,
(19:52):
we start to panic and think I shouldn't be feeling that,
you know, why am I feeling this way? This isn't normal.
I think we're just so scared of doing it wrong
that we become hyper vigilant. You know. We start comparing
are we having sex enough compared to other couples? Are
we going on enough date nights compared to other couples,
as if there is just this one set normal, and
(20:14):
we just want to know that that exists so that
we can then rest assured that we are doing it right. So, yeah,
there's a whole lot of expectations to challenge, and I
think that is one of the biggest things that we
have to do with r OCD is really looking at
what is my unchecked story of how relationships should be?
What is the reality? And you know, and a question
(20:37):
I like to ask people is if you knew that
that was just totally normal, would it be a problem,
And for most of them are like, oh no, if
I knew that it was normal to sometimes go a
few weeks without having sex, Like I don't know, it
wouldn't be a big deal to me at all. Like
people almost need permission for it to be normal, Like
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I think it's because relationships are so nuanced and complex
and complicated and something they're scary, like being in love
is scary. We look to be validated by what other
people are doing because that provides us with some sense
of confidence that we're doing it right. It's like cheating
(21:16):
off the test of someone next to you, thinking that
they know what they're doing and they don't. Actually, And
when you're talking about that client that you know, I
have to feel happy in a relationship, and you're saying, well,
what if your relationship is meant to teach you other things?
You know, as humans? There was a study I read
recently that we have access to thirty four thousand different
(21:38):
kinds of emotions, distinct different emotional states. How boring would
it be if your relationship only fulfilled one? That means
you would have thirty three thousand, nine hundred and ninety
nine other emotions, maybe nine hundred and ninety eight if
we also include love, that you would have to find elsewhere. Yeah,
(22:00):
that doesn't sound particularly enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, I love that you said that as well as
one of the concepts I teach is called the fifty
to fifty, and it's this idea that life is supposed
to be about the fifty to fifty, the fifty to
fifty of positive and negative emotion, and no matter where
you are, no matter where you live, no matter what
job you do, your brain is going to create the
fifty to fifty. I always think of like, you know,
(22:23):
when you think of people that are rich and famous
and have it all that, my brain goes to like
the Kardashians. You only have to watch an episode of
the Kardashians to see that they are living the fifty
to fifty. They have a lot of positive emotion, but
boy do they have negative emotion too. And they have money,
they have cars, they have you know, glamour, they have
the big house. Their brain is still creating the fifty
to fifty. They're going to feel bored, they're going to
(22:44):
feel frustrated, they're going to feel irritated, they're going to
feel disconnected sometimes, and it's really this reminder that it
doesn't matter where you are what you're doing. You know,
on my honeymoon in December, me and my wife were
sat on the beach one day and we were both
just in a terrible mood and we both looked each other.
We were like, this really proves the idea of the
fifty to fifty because we're literally on our honeymoon on
(23:06):
a beach and we're both really irritated. Yeah, in love,
and we're both really irritated, and we were like waiting
for the boat to pick us up, and we were like,
we were just in like a bad mood. And it's
just this idea of no matter which partner you have,
no matter who you pick, your brain is going to
create the negative fifty, which includes boredom, frustration, anxiety, irritation,
all the things you said, like, it's going to give
(23:27):
you the whole spectrum. And when we can know that,
we can we can worry less about Okay, which right
partner is going to give me the exit ramp off
that human experience? Which right partner is going to come
along and save me from that negative fifty? And just
which human do I want to enjoy loving while knowing
my brain's going to create all of the emotions no
(23:48):
matter what.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I love the way you put that, I absolutely
love it. We're going to take a short break here.
Let us have a little break for water, a little
tea break, a thinking break, but we will return very
very shortly Okay, we are back with the wonderful, brilliant
(24:11):
Rebecca or to talk about relationship OCD. So something I
know people are thinking is if my brain is going
to create the fifty to fifty with anyone, when do
I know what doubts to listen to and which ones
to ignore? Because there are people who are just strictly
(24:33):
not right for us. So do you have any tricks
for telling the difference between an anxious thought and an
actual doubt.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, So there's a process that I would encourage people
to try, and it basically starts with self southing because
in the moment where you feel triggered as in anxious,
you feel that kind of urgency. What we've got to
remember is that your brain is seeing whatever the situation
is as dangerous. Your brain thinks that this relationship ending
(25:07):
is dangerous in some way, or you know, this partner
not being right for you is dangerous. It's going to
mean something bad. So it's sounding the alarm, and you
can think of it like maybe an overprotective guard dog
or a faulty smoke alarm. I sometimes use that analogy.
So your brain is sounding the alarm as if you
know there's a lion about to attack you when really, okay,
your partner just might not be a good match for you.
(25:29):
You're not going to die. So we've got to start
with just kind of grounding ourselves because when we're in
that place of heightened anxiety or fear, the rational part
of our brain is not online. The prefrontal cortex, the
part of our brain that is in charge of logical
rational thinking, completely off fine, and it's the primitive brain
doing all the talking. So in these moments you're feeling
(25:50):
really triggered, you know, you're having a lot of doubts.
Just start by first of all, observing the experience. So
I like to do this by just shifting to the
observer of my thoughts. So, Okay, my brain is telling
me this thought, but okay, I'm noticing my partner, you know,
said this, and my brain's making it mean this. Okay,
(26:11):
I'm just noticing my brain is telling me this, So
you know, it's kind of like you're shifting to observing
the story. Then we've got to sit and ground ourselves
back in our body. We got to calm the body
down again, and we're signaling to the primitive brain it's okay, brain,
we're safe. There's no lion, there's no tiger. We're actually safe.
So there's a whole process I teach on kind of
grounding in the body, but it really involves being willing
(26:34):
to sit and feel the emotions, feel the sensations of
that anxiety. Just notice where they are, take a breath
around them. Notice how you can just coexist with them.
They can't hurt you, And try and just be present
with that experience without trying to rush to escape it.
And the client I was coaching last night, we were talking
about this and she always feels like her like it's
(26:54):
an emergency, she has to solve it right away. So
if her brain offers her these doubts, she has to
solve it. She has to know whether it's like, you know,
right round or what she's going to do. So we've
been really working on can she just sit and observe, like, oh, okay,
Like I'm feeling this in my body and this is
the story my brain is telling me. Okay, this isn't
an emergency. It's just you know, a thought and feeling
I'm having. It's okay. When you do that, it's kind
(27:17):
of like you're turning the volume down So what felt
like a nine out of ten on the anxious doubt
scary spiral scale is going to come down to like
a four or a three or even lower. You can
just bring your kind of it's going to turn the
volume down. It's going to bring the sensations down a
little bit. They might not go completely, but it's going
to just make them just kind of more like background noise. Yeah.
(27:38):
From there, that's when you can really check is there
an unchecked story here? Is there an expectation at play
that I need to look at? So I always like
to get my clients to separate out what are the
facts versus what is the story? Just so they can
check is this something I want to keep thinking? So
I had a client that would doubt whether her relationship
was right whenever her and a part sat in silence
(28:01):
on the sofa scrolling on their phone. And so the
fact was they were they were sat in silence, scrolling
on their phones. And I thought her story was, we
should be more connected, we shouldn't ever feel bored, we
should always have something to talk about. So we've got
to challenge those expectations and stories. You know, is that
really true that you should never feel bored ever, just
because you're you have a romantic partner, Like, why, you know,
(28:21):
do you have to be in conversation all the time
to love and care about someone? You know? Is that
really true? Is it possible you can have nothing particular
to say in that moment and still really get on
with that person and think they're great. So it's kind
of like really challenging those misconceptions, those expectations. Is there
a shot at play? And you know who said? Who
(28:42):
said that you should be doing this? Where did that
come from? With that? With that something from childhood? Was
that something from you know social media or the kind
of Disney films you watched, or you know rom coms.
So doing that first is important because you might discover
after going through that process that there's no issue. Actually
it was just your brain, your fearful brain, sound the
(29:03):
alarmed to try and protect you, and actually it's not
not a problem. Other times, you might discover that there
are things that are with deal breaker, that maybe although
you've challenged the story, you still don't really like this thing,
or that there's something that maybe that goes against a
value of yours, that that doesn't feel good in the
relationship and that's going to be so much easier to
say when you're coming from a calm, rational place and
(29:24):
you've challenged those stories first.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I love that where it's like, Okay, we need to
get back to that regulated, calm state before making any
rash decisions. I also think, in my experience, and I've
done a whole episode on this called anxiety versus Intuition,
your intuition about something is not going to demand an
answer from you right away. Your anxiety is urgent. Your
(29:52):
anxiety wants an accelerated solution so that it can return
to an internal state of emotional homeostate. Your intuition will
be like, you make this decision in your own.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Time, right then anxious? Yeah, totally exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And it all comes back to this. I also think
there are some pretty obvious red flags, right And I
think that if you are continuously having this feeling of oh,
this just doesn't feel right and it's making you miserable
in other situations like where it just won't go away
and you are miserable because of it, and you've discussed
(30:32):
it with that person and they and it just isn't
being resolved, Like there is a genuine need that is
not being met for you, So sitting on your phone
with your partner, If you are sitting on the couch
and you're sitting in silence and you're kind of like,
I actually kind of enjoy this, but maybe we shouldn't
be doing this. That's probably an anxious thought. But if
you're sitting on the couch and you turn to your
(30:53):
partner and say, hey, I actually really would want us
to be I really want to connect right now, and
they're like, no, I don't want to leave me alone,
and they're not listening to you. Yeah, like that, I
think that is an actual doubt. It's something that you
can't collaborate through. It's something that like, if there's going
to be this fifty to fifty you want a team member.
(31:13):
You want someone who actually can collaborate with and compromise with.
If that's not them, I think it's not going to work.
What are something?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, sorry, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say. One
of the things I teach as well is this idea
of the want match, And it's this idea that we
have different wants in a relationship and some people will
match those and some people won't. So you know, you
might have a one for a partner that's really physically affectionate,
and they might be someone that doesn't like physical affection.
(31:41):
Well that's not a one match then, And I think, yeah,
when we can really it's kind of like when we
can calm the the overprotective guard dog down, like it's okay, body,
it's okay, We're going to be all right. We can
then drop into that Well, what are the deal breakers
to me? What is the kind of partner I want?
You know, no partner is going to be perfect. This
person isn't going to do it perfectly all the time.
(32:01):
But are we aligned with our values and our want matches?
You know, do we want the same things out of
a relationship. If this person wants to, you know, never
really have sex, that's what they want, but you have
a you know, you have a really strong sex drive
and sex is really important to you. Okay, that might
not be a want match, and that's okay too. So yeah,
I love that you said that, and I think you're right.
When we can kind of drop into that calmness, it
(32:24):
becomes so much easier to decipher and.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
If you have a respect for the other person, it's like, huh,
I just feel like that is also it's just such
a big thing and if there's no respect, that is
a deal breaker you should listen to. I also believe,
and you can correct me on this because you're the expert,
but this is my personal opinion. I also believe that
you don't have to address your doubts right now if
(32:50):
you feel comfortable and stable, you know what I mean.
Like the anxiety again, is this urgent thing. I find
that sometimes with my relationship at Procederer, I'm like, what
if I feel differently in five years and then I've
wasted all this time and there was something five years
ago that I didn't see and we're five years down
the line and I ignored it, and mom my god,
(33:10):
now my whole life is over.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think that is the story. We've got a challenge
as well. I'm sorry to know that. That is why
I hear so much right when people say I'm so
worried that I'm going to regret this in five years time.
I think it's so It's so interesting because if we
think about your brain is constantly telling you stories, and
basically in those moments we're saying I'm afraid that in
(33:32):
five years time, my brain might tell me the story
that I've wasted time, and so I'm really afraid today
that my brain is going to say something to me
in five years time that I won't like. But we
forget that. In five years time, we get to decide
whether we believe that. And I think this is why
one of the things I was thinking of our CD
is we've got to really look at what our brain
is so afraid of underneath this all, Like, Okay, if
(33:55):
you are in this relationship and it ends in five years,
time is scary about that? And I think you know
that there's that thought you said, well, it means I've
wasted time. That's not actually a fact. That is totally
an optional way to think. And you know, I always
think I got married last year and I hope we're
going to stay together forever. But if in five years
(34:17):
time we don't, we break up for whatever reason, I'm
never gonna think, oh, I wasted time, that was the
wrong relationship, and now I need to beat myself up
for that. I'm going to think, no, that was the
total right decision for me in that moment, and that
was a beautiful relationship. And if it ends in five
years time, I get to go and create another great relationship,
(34:38):
And I think that is really what we need to
look at. You know, what is it that you're afraid of?
Is it that you're going to tell yourself you chose
wrong if this relationship ends. Is it that you don't
believe you could handle the breakup. Is it a fear
of getting divorced? Is it you know that you think
that you then won't be able to meet anyone else
at a certain age. Because I think we almost need
(34:58):
to be willing for our relationships to end and know
that we can handle them. But for so many of us,
we see the idea of a relationship ending is failure.
So we think, Okay, in order for me to see
this is a success and believe I'm good at relationships
and I'm doing it right, this relationship has to last forever.
So we almost then start to work backwards and we're like, okay, well,
(35:19):
how do I know that this person's going to be
my forever person? Well, then I need to make sure
that we never argued that we and then we start
to look for all these red flags and it just
it ruins our experience of it versus what if it
didn't need to last forever? Necessarily. And again, I'm married.
It's not me saying that I don't want my marries
to I love if it did, but I'm open to
(35:41):
the possibility that if it ended, I could be okay,
and I wouldn't beat myself up. I wouldn't make it
mean I failed. It wudn't be a failed relationship. It would
be a relationship that lasted, however long it lasted. So
I don't know what you think of that and what
that brings up for you, but that, for me is
a really kind of important piece of this as well.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Wow, I'll tell you what I think about that. Absolutely
amazing advice. I mean, that's incredible advice, and I think
that that is going to change the brain chemistry of
a lot of people saying because it is absolutely true.
It's like, just because a relationship doesn't last forever doesn't
mean it wasn't beautiful, doesn't mean it wasn't right then.
And I think it's so funny You've just unlocked this
(36:21):
in me, Like maybe I think that all that our
doubts are, all that our anxiety is, is our brain
trying to have some insurance against future suffering.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yes, that's it.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
It's just like, okay, Well, if I worry about this
is like my insurance, this is like gonna stop this.
I'm sorry, but your anxiety is going to do nothing
to stop you from suffering in the future. It's just
gonna make you suffer now. And again, there's this huge
study in psychology that basically says we tend to overdramaticize
(36:54):
or intensify how we think we'll feel in the future.
So you're sitting here right now and you're saying, well,
if I don't get the dream job now, in ten years,
I'm going to feel so terrible. Actually, they've done studies
on this and they've found most of the time people
actually feel pretty neutral. We overexaggerate how we think will
feel in the future. And this is the same thing
(37:14):
with relationship. Both Today, your relationship doesn't work out, it
is going to be devastating, but it's your life isn't
going to be over. You will be fine. People, So
many people have made this pilgrimage, have had relationships that
have failed, and they have thought it was absolutely perfect.
So your anxiety doesn't mean one thing or the other.
(37:35):
It's just again, this insurance. But I want to ask
this this follow up question, which is, you're sitting here,
you're doubting your relationship, you're with this amazing person. How
do you deal with the guilt of that? Do you
the guilt of like, well, if I'm having doubts, maybe
they are better off without me.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, oh that's so so common as well. And yeah,
there's so much shame and guilt around this, And yeah,
I think the most important thing to remember is that
you aren't your thoughts. So the thoughts you have of doubt,
of judgment towards your partner, of doubting if you love
them enough, of doubting whether they're right for you, you're not
those thoughts. You're just the observer of those thoughts. Those
(38:17):
thoughts are just random sentences that your brain offers you,
and your brain works through repetition, so the fact that
they come up so often is just because those are
the ones you've been practicing for so so long. But
like your brains, it's like a radio station that loves
to play the same three songs, Like your brain is
going to keep offering you the same thoughts that it
loves to play the most, And that's all these thoughts are.
(38:39):
They're just they've been programmed into your brain from so
many places, maybe past experiences, maybe messages from society, maybe
you know, early traumas that you had, or just these
fears and doubts about what it would mean if the
relationship ended. You know, that is what created these thoughts.
So it's kind of remembering that you just get to
observe the thoughts. You don't need to beat yourself up
(38:59):
for the thoughts being there. You know, having those doubts
isn't a sign that you're a mean, unloving person, or
even that you don't love your partner. It's just a
sign that your brain has been trained to think in
a certain way about relationships right now. So I would
always say, if you notice your feeling guilt, if you're
shaming yourself, try and shift to some self compassion of like,
(39:20):
I'm just a human with a very normal human brain,
and that's okay. You know, my fears and doubts aren't me.
I'm just the observer of them. That's okay.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
There's a new therapeutic practice called radical self compassion that
I came across the through you a few years ago.
Just like change my life. It's like you can you
can promise to unconditionally love someone else. Why can't you
promise to unconditionally love yourself? Yeah, yeah, that's completely possible.
It's also coming back to this. You know, there's a
(39:50):
term OCD is in this is in relationship OCD. OCD
is defined in large part by intrusive thoughts that we
feel like we don't have control all over. Yeah, that
really aligns with this guilt, this sense of like why
am I thinking this? I must be a bad person.
And people with just you know, regular ocedo you will
(40:10):
find that a lot, like why am I thinking about?
Why am I thinking about crashing this car? Why am
I suddenly thinking these terrible things? This means something about me?
And what you're saying is you know, it doesn't, which
I think is really really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, it totally doesn't. It's just the way your brain
has been trained to think right now, and that's okay.
You can just be It's almost like you can think
of your brain as this separate entity from you like it.
You can use different analogies, whether you want to think
of it like a scared, frightened animal, like a little toddler,
you know, like you're the parent of it, like whatever
analogy works for you. But you want to remember that
you are the manager of your mind, You're not your mind,
(40:45):
and really changing your relationship to it is so important.
If every time your brain says something to you, you
freak out and take it super seriously, or you beat
yourself up for having it, or you start to scream
it in why you like this, you know that's not
going to be a very great way of managing it
versus calmly being able to observe what it's saying and
guide it to where you want it to go.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Again, such beautiful advice. Well, we're going to take one
more short break and when we return, we've got some
wonderful listener questions, so stay with us, Okay, Rebecca. This
is something I've been doing recently where you know, there
are just so many niche questions that people have for
(41:26):
me out there about specific topics, and I want to
make sure that we cover everything that they ask So
I've got four listener questions for you today, actually three
listener questions and one bonus question from me. So I'm
going to tell you those right now, starting with this
first question, which is coming from Emma. I feel like
I'm totally madly in love with my partner, and we
(41:49):
have a beautiful relationship except for one thing. I feel
like we cannot communicate and we're always having fights slash
tension over the same things over and over again. Should
I break up with them or do I just accept
this as a flaw that they will always have and
live with it.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I think it was
kind of hard for me to give an answer, in
the sense of knowing more about the context of the
situation would be really important. But also there is no
right answer. You know, there's no expert out there that
can tell you what relationship is right for you or
when to stay or when to go. That's never my job.
But I think before you make a decision to leave
(42:31):
or staying, is just to do some real self reflection
on your own thoughts and feelings and the way you're
showing up. Because if you do decide to leave, this
can just be a really great kind of opportunity for
you to take back control of who you are in relationships.
So you know, noticing, Okay, what is the pattern in
(42:54):
this communication? Is it that I say something, that they
say something, and then you know, I get defensive, then
they get defensive, like you want to just look at
what is going on and really come back to owning
your side of it. You know, Okay, well, how are
you approaching conversations? What is the feelings you're having, and
what are the reoccurring thoughts driving that? You know? Do
you keep making him sighing, enduring an argument, mean he
(43:18):
is unbothered or like whatever? And can we just let's
just challenge some of that so we can see is
there a different way to navigate these moments that might
turn the volume down on them completely, that might make
it less of a problem. So again, that's really hard
to just to coach on him and just a short
pip the answer on a podcast, but I would do
some work on that really looking at, Okay, what are
(43:40):
my thoughts and feelings during these situations and how do
those thoughts and feelings have me showing up? And is
that intentional? Am I really showing up as my intentional
higher self in these moments? And if not, no, there's
no shame there. We all struggle with that from time
to time. But spend a moment just trying to work
on that for yourself. And I always advise getting curious
(44:03):
about what might be going on in our partner's brain too.
You know, if your partner keeps having the same response
to something, let's get curious. You know what might that
be about for them? You know, do they keep hearing
something you're saying and interpreting it as they're not good enough?
You know, me and my wife had this at the
start of our relationship. Whenever I kind of gave some
feedback or some criticism on something, she'd get very defensive.
(44:25):
And when I kind of dropped into that curiosity and
even got curious with her about you know, what is
it that comes up for you when I say that
what's going on for you? It was that she thought
I was saying she was a bad partner and I
wasn't saying that at all, but that was what her
brain was hearing. So I think we can bring that
curiosity and then see what comes out of that. But
but yeah, there's going to be at some point where
(44:46):
you've really worked on yourself in it. You know, you're
doing your best, your showing coupas your best self, and
the other person isn't able to meet you where you
want them to be, or that they're not able to
kind of have the same values with you in terms
of communication and open nurse or you know, emotional regulation,
whatever it is. And I think, yeah, sometimes it's accepting that, Okay,
(45:06):
this is the person for who they are, This is
who they are. Is this someone I want to commit
to loving for the good, the bad, the ugly?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I love that advice. Our second question comes from a
listener called Sean. Sean asks, is there a correlation between
relationship or CD and an anxious attachment style?
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I mean, yeah, I would definitely say so. I think
with anyone with an anxious attachment style, their brain is
kind of programmed to see relationships as dangerous unsafe. They
think that how this person behaves will either create safety
or you know, danger, So they are constantly monitoring, you know,
what's this person doing. What does it mean about me?
(45:50):
If they leave me? What does it mean about me
if they you know, don't, if they're not as interested anymore.
And this this kind of focus on the other person
to create this inner feeling of safety and secure totally,
of course, then relates to r OCD because it's kind
of the same fixation. The brain is seeing that thing
outside of you, that person, that relationship as either safe
(46:10):
or dangerous and trying to work out which it is
and kind of create safety from it. So yeah, I
definitely think there's a there's a correlation there, And for me,
I think whether it's our ROCD, whether it's anxious attachment,
it's really coming back to looking at your internal experience
rather than trying to focus on the external, rather than
(46:31):
focusing on what is my partner doing or not doing?
It's okay, what are the thoughts and feelings I'm having
and what is that bringing up? Like, what is whatever's
going on out here bringing up within me? Because that's
where the safety and security is actually created. It's never
created by the thing outside of us. It's created by
our own thoughts and the beliefs we have. So yeah,
(46:55):
I hope that answers that question. There's definitely a correlation,
And yeah, coming back to whichever it is is, getting
curious about your internal experience is really important.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, excellent advice. So this is the final listener question.
My relationship OCD is so bad that I cannot go
more than a day without thinking that I should break
up with my partner. I love them, but some part
of me really just wants a break from my own thoughts.
(47:24):
Would you recommend taking some time away just to get
my relationship OCAD under order slash regulated, or should I
stick it out and work with them.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
It's a really good question, and I kind of want
to say that there's no right or wrong. If you
feel like you just really need a break, do it.
You know, you know what's right for you. Let yourself
be the guide of that. But one thing I will
say is that often when we're experiencing an emotion we
don't like, like anxiety, we think the solution is to
(47:57):
remove the external thing that we're blaming for causing it.
So with RCD, we think anxious attachment, it's the partner.
We think, let's remove them and then I won't have
to have these thoughts and feelings. And there's some truth
in that. You know, if that's the thing that triggers
the thoughts and feelings, okay, you're probably going to get
some relief. But what we don't really realize is that
well that those thoughts and feelings are still going to
(48:18):
be there the minute we go back to the relationship
or the minute we start another relationship. You know, I've
seen so many people leave relationships thinking, Okay, this partner
was the problem. I'm going to leave, and then they
have the same anxious, doubtful thoughts and the next one
and they're like, oh damn it. Like it turns out
changing the partner didn't really work. So my advice, if
you feel like you're able, if you don't feel like
you know you're at a real burnt out place with it,
(48:40):
that you just need the break, take that if you
need it. But I would also consider what if instead
of trying to escape the thoughts, what if I could
work on changing my relationship to them. So if your
brain keeps offering you the thought this relationship is wrong
for me, I should end this relationship. You want to
start changing your relationship to that thought, So when it
(49:00):
comes up, it'd be like, oh, there's my brain's favorite
story again. I'm noticing my brain is offering me that
story again, that this relationship is wrong for me. Interesting, Like,
here's my brain's favorite story to tell me right now,
and kind of change how seriously you're taking it? Consider
how does it make sense that your brain is offering
(49:20):
this to you? Oh, it makes total sense. My brain
wants to keep going back here because it's terrified of
this relationship being wrong for me, or it's terrified of
me ever having to go for a breakup in five
years time. Okay, so it makes sense that my brain
keeps wanting to offer me these thoughts. So there's so
much more work you can do, and that there's different
kind of tools you can use for diffusing thoughts. There's
(49:43):
things that you can kind of sing the intrusive thought
to yourself that kind of lightens the mood of it.
There's things like kind of seeing the thought coming from this,
like separate voice from you. That there's different things you
can do. But that would be my advice to you
is how can you make the occur of this thought
less of a problem? Because what that's going to do
(50:04):
is turn down the volume on it altogether. It's going
to seem like less of a problem, and from there
your anxiety is going to come down a lot as well.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
This final question is for me, and I ask every
single guest on the show this question, what is one
piece of advice you'd have for anyone in their twenties
that has nothing to do with what we talked about today.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Well, the thing I was going to say was change
our relationship to our thoughts, but I guess I can't
say that we've got nothing.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
It's a bit of a honestly.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, I know it's difficult, and yeah, honestly, then the
piece of advice I'd give to anyone in their twenties
is just to go easy on themselves. I know that
sounds like such a basic thing to say, but I
think sometime it does kind of tie into what we're
talking about. But we have so much pressure from things
we see on social media, from expectations maybe our parents
(50:58):
have a boss, from what our you know, friends are doing,
and I think just remembering that you know, life is
supposed to be fun, that you know, you can actually
change so much of your experience of what you're going
through in any situation by just lightening up and being
a little bit more of a friend to yourself about it,
(51:20):
you know, offering yourself that compassion, being your own biggest cheerleader,
and remembering that you know that there's nothing that could
happen that you couldn't be equipped to handle. And that
is something I really focus on a lot with my
own clients, is looking at whatever that theor is that
worst case scenario, and considering, you know, how could I
(51:41):
feel empowered to show up to handle that if it happened,
you know, what would I want to think and feel
if that happened. So yeah, I think kind of a
mixed bag of it. Advice that of course, that's always
going to say. Your relationship to your thoughts and changing
that is so so important, but also working on having
more of that lighthearted, compassionate, you know, kind of supportive
(52:04):
relationship with yourself is such a game changer. And if
you can master that in your twenties, your thirties, your forties,
it's gonna all be great. If you can work on
that relationship with you where you know, I'm going to
have my own back no matter what happens. You know,
it's gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
That's such a resounding, beautiful way to finish this episode.
I want to thank you so much for coming on.
I'm going to leave all of your links below. But
where can people find you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Amazing. So I'm on Instagram mainly, so you can find
me out Rebecca or coaching, so that's Rebecca and then
O r E Coaching. You can also can find me
on my podcast which is Master Your Relationship Mind Drama
And yeah, I'll I'll send you all the links to
the website and things like that. But yeah, it's Instagram
on my podcast mainly where people can come find me
(52:54):
if they want to know more about thought work and
managing their thoughts and managing their anxiety. I lot about
that on the podcast as well.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
I know your podcast is actually the perfect If this
is an episode that you really related to go and
check out Rebecca's podcast because there is so much advice there.
But as always, if you enjoyed this episode as well,
share it with a friend who might need to hear it.
Leave a five star review. Wherever you are listening, make
sure you're following along, and make sure you're following along
(53:22):
on Instagram. At that psychology podcast, It's where I got
the listener questions today. It's where I love to engage
with you all. If you've made it this far into
the episode, Hello Lucky, Lucky Lucky. I want you to
leave a little magic crystal ball emoji in the comments
because that's what we think our relationship OCD is and
it's not. So it's also a great way to hear
(53:44):
they listeners of that. Yeah, who's listened this far? And
as always, we will be back next week. Until then,
stay safe, please be kind, in the theme of today's episode,
be gentle with yourself, and we will talk very very soon.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!