May 9, 2025 • 42 mins
The dreaded talking stage. A whole new level of complexity that has been added to dating in our 20s. The talking stage is this strange should be about information gathering and date organising, but it's become such a snagging point for so many would be relationships. In today's episode, we discuss:
- Why we even have a talking stage
- The 1 month rule for the talking stage
- Why they are so psychologically intense
- The 3 signs you're never leaving the talking stage
- How to find closure
- How to not get attached too quickly + so much more
Listen now when you need a pep talk that you will survive the talking stage once more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, or welcome back to the show. Welcome back
to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are
in the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties. I'm sitting here in the
studio with my dog. Actually, for those of you who
(00:21):
don't know, I foster failed. I have a dog now,
big life updates on that one. But I've been getting
warmed up for this topic because it is going to
be a supreme deep dive into what is slowly becoming,
i would say, a defining but also exhausting part of
modern dating in our twenties. That is the talking stage,
(00:42):
that kind of murky, unlabeled limbo where you're messaging someone
like every single day, you're flirting, you're sharing things, but
you're not dating. Maybe you haven't even met in person yet.
You're not really sure where things are going or if
they're going anywhere at all. Yeah, it's this strange thing
where this person has become part of your daily life.
(01:05):
You're kind of expecting things from them. So why do
we even have a talking stage and why has it
become so psychologically intense as of recent We're going to
break down the psychology behind this today, specifically, what makes
a talking stage so compelling? Why do we get attached
(01:29):
without even knowing someone? How do we protect ourselves from
emotionally investing in people that we are interested in while
still being open to communicating lots of big questions there
were also going to look at the personality traits of
people who extend and love a prolonged talking stage, perhaps
(01:52):
the people you should be avoiding, and the role of
certain traits like commitment, readiness, intermittent reinforcements. And also, this
is a big message for this episode, why playing games
game playing in the talking stage is basically going to
instantaneously mean that you are not going to be in
(02:14):
a relationship with that person. We need to be pursuing authenticity,
especially in this current dating environment where you know, dating
apps give us the illusion of endless choices and endless possibilities,
and no one wants to commit, no one wants to
go on dates. Being authentic and direct about what you
want is the only way. So if you have ever
(02:38):
felt stuck in a never ending talking stage, you are
not alone. I have been there, done that, got the
T shirt as have many other people in their twenties.
But we're going to unpack it today, all of the psychology,
as well as a little bit of a guide to
getting through the talking stage, how to find closure when
the talking stage perhaps ends, and my heart and fast
(03:00):
rules for exactly how long you should be chatting with
someone before you go on a date. So, with all
of that in mind, stay with us. So I want
to begin by kind of defining some parameters here the
talking stage to me, I know it has a few
(03:21):
different ways of being thought about, but for me, it
is the stage before you officially go on a date.
It's the lead up, it's the preamble. It may also
sometimes last past the first I would say two dates
if there is long gaps between when you are going
on dates in which you were talking. But it's really
that period where you're on each other's radar, but you're
(03:45):
not consistently dating. You're not planning for dates date one
or date two or date three. So essentially, the defining
feature of a talking stage is you are spending the
majority of your time communemmunicating with them over a messenger,
over text online, and not much time making concrete plans
(04:06):
or seeing each other in real life, which I think
we can all agree is really preferable. Let's talk about this.
Why do we even have a talking stage to begin
with if most people's experience of it is awful and
less than pleasant. Well, essentially, the talking stage is part
of what we call our modern dating script. So the
(04:28):
modern dating script is basically the storyline we all expect
a romance to follow. It's the script that influences how
you believe you should interact at certain times, what your
timeline should be. And it kind of goes like this.
You cross paths, you spend some time talking to figure
each other out, then you go on a date. You
(04:50):
on a few more dates, wait a few months, make
sure they're not seeing other people, make sure you're not
seeing other people, and hopefully you end up in a relationship.
During each stage or chat that there are different ways
of communicating and interacting with each other that we kind
of pick up from media, culture, society at large. Of course,
ending up in a relationship, most of us would be
(05:13):
able to tell this is not always the case. At
every stage of this script or this narrative, there is
a way for things to get complicated. The talking stage
is no different in some cultures and countries like there
is no talking stage. That's just not part of their
dating script, you know, the only talking that gets done
(05:34):
is asking someone to go out immediately. But it's definitely
becoming a more prominent part of how we viewed dating.
And actually this generation, more than any other, take longer
to decide if they want to date someone. A twenty
twenty four study it was one of the first to
really investigate the talking stage. It found that the talking
(05:57):
stage is what they would call a new relationship construct.
It is something that has really only emerged in the
past fifteen years. Before twenty I think it was like
twenty ten, twenty twelve, the talking stage was not really
part of our vocab, but wasn't really a term. It
wasn't really part of the early dating period. The reason
(06:20):
why people in this generation are spending more time in
the talking stage is because this period allows us to
assess compatibility. Yes, it does allow us to test if
we have the same interests, if we communicate the same,
if we have the spark. It does allow us to
tell is this person a total asshole? But it's also
being used to really protect us against pain and to
(06:44):
also help us avoid the emotional sunk costs that would
occur if we just dived in headfirst into a relationship.
That is typically what we think a talking stage is
meant to help us do. But this same study really
examined that an inc increase in the pool of potential
partners has facilitated this rides in the talking stage. The
(07:07):
main culprit being dating apps. People want to keep options
open because this you know, availability of other people is
so much more obvious. It's just this huge pressure that
there is always going to be someone else out there
who could potentially be better for you. So people want
to keep options open. People want to not settle down
(07:32):
as quickly or you know, choose someone. And the paradox
or irony of this is that normally they're actually missing
out on the person who is right in front of them,
who may be really great, because you keep thinking that
someone better out there exists when the person that you
are thinking of is completely made up. It's a classic
(07:54):
example of the paradox of choice. We have too many options.
Dating apps are creating the illusion of infinite possibilities that
makes it harder for people to commit because it makes
it makes the possibility of something better, seem a lot
more real. I think what's hard about this as well
is that the talking stage and the emergence of this
(08:17):
has only happened in the last fifteen years, and yet
we're still comparing our stories of dating to like the
love stories of before. And we're also facing confusion from
relatives and family members who have entirely different perspectives on
dating from when they were finding love, and so the
(08:37):
stigma feels very severe. It's very severe, but it's because
our reality is just simply different. Our families don't understand.
They think that dating is the way it was when
they were getting to know people, and so we're facing
this dual frustration of being like, well, I wish it was,
but also it's not so understand that this is just
something we have to deal with. So this is what
(08:59):
I believe. I'm going to give you a hard and
fast rule here. I believe the talking stage should be
entirely about information gathering and honesty, nothing more. I also
think it should not last longer than one month maximum maximum.
At one month, you've got a press pause or you've
(09:21):
got to make plans asap. It's like when you go
for a job and you have that initial interview to
see if you vibe that's what a date is meant
to be, not the talking stage. You know, imagine doing
a job interview. But it was entirely over email, Like
you don't really get to know someone, and you don't
really get to know someone over just texting either, Like
there's so many ways that they can create the illusion
(09:45):
or perception of who they are. You need to be
on that on that date, like you need to be
in person talking for real. You know, I get so
frustrated at today's dating culture that is so quick to
wear someone else's time in the name of getting to
know someone without ever actually taking them on a date,
(10:06):
especially when you're secretly comparing them to other options that
you have. You know, I know, we don't want to
regret our choice of romantic partner. It is a big
and significant decision. It does determine a lot of our happiness.
But how unfair, How unfair to just keep someone on
the line and just keep chatting to them and never
(10:28):
taking them on a date, because what you're waiting for
someone else to come along. If you have to question it,
if you have to question it before you've even met
them in person, I think you have to give the
other person the kindness of letting them go and letting
them go and find someone who is one hundred percent
yes about just wanting to meet them and see where
(10:50):
things go. Maybe not one hundred percent yes about the relationship,
but it's because you haven't got on a date yet.
Like the talking stage should only be about information, you
are not meant to be making any decisions. The decisions
should only be made based on the dates and the
real life exposure you have. I truly just think we
are just overthinking this. We're overthinking the talking stage. I
(11:13):
see people in like three months, six months, sometimes even
year long talking stages, and it's just like you're waiting
for a caterpillar to turn into a butterfly and realizing
the entire time that you had a stick. You know,
That's what that feels like. There is a certain profile
of individuals I see who I think really enjoy the
(11:34):
extended talking stage more than others, and they often display
the following traits. These are the people that if you
don't like a long talking stage like I do, like
I don't, I'm sorry I should say I don't like
a long talking stage. I never have I never will.
This is who you need to look up for. Firstly,
the first kind of person who loves a talking stage
(11:57):
and never a date is someone who is low in
a trait known as commitment readiness. So this was a
trait first identified by a paper published in twenty eighteen,
and the paper basically found that we all exist on
a spectrum of either wanting or not wanting commitment, and
(12:18):
at any point we are somewhere on that scale between
high commitment readiness, which means like you are ready to
go you are either in a committed relationship or like
the next person who comes along, you're going to grab
them and you're gonna make it happen, or your low
in commitment readiness, meaning you don't want to be attached
to anyone. So people who are low on commitment readiness
(12:40):
do not want a relationship. They may still want intimacy,
they may still want entertainment dopamine from the pursuit, but
they are also the ones who are most likely going
to keep you in the talking stage for longer because
they understand that once they move you into the dating zone,
then they're going to have to deal with the questions
(13:00):
of commitment. And this going somewhere. The talking stage is
a great pen power situation. It's a great limbo situation.
People do shift up and down this scale by the
way of commitment readiness. If you've just broken up with someone,
you're probably very low on the commitment readiness scale, but
if you just got married, you're obviously very high. So
(13:23):
maybe this person will change. Great news for you, though
you don't have to wait for that. There is no
point you're trying to force them to move up or
down the scale. That is something that they can only
do from themselves, and because they want to, there's no
point trying. You just need to move on. The Other
thing that talking stage proponents have in common is often
(13:45):
an anxious, avoidant, ambivalent attachment style. They've been hurt before.
The early childhood experiences have maybe taught them that closeness
equals pain, and so they may keep you at arm's
length as a way to protect themselves emotionally from really
investing in you. It doesn't mean they may not want more,
they just can't bring themselves to initiate it. Again, that's
(14:09):
a really hard situation, But at that point I do
think that you cannot wait around until their attachment style
suddenly heals, especially if they are not even willing to
ask people on dates, it shows that unfortunately, they do
have a lot of work to do themselves, and it's
(14:29):
not like things are going to change once you're suddenly dating.
Like the time where you should be most excited about
a relationship is when you're first getting to know someone,
and if they're not well, that's not going to get better.
The final trait I tend to notice for those who
love a talking stage is a class of people called
(14:49):
novelty seekers. Obviously, as humans, we have a baseline desire
and in fact a need for newness, for novelty in
our everyday lives. But some people find that this novelty
is most satisfying to them when it comes in the
form of human connection. So they are psychologically stimulated by
the uncertainty of getting to know people, the exploration and
(15:12):
the emotional novelty from talking stages. You know, talking stages
are fun, They're exciting. Everything is new, you don't know
and you don't know anything about this person. They can
be anything you want them to be, so they really
enjoy that. They love that like flirtatious tension, that possibility
that potential, but when things start getting real, well that
(15:33):
can be the end of that. You know, the high
is done for them, the fun is done. There's nothing
wrong with any of these things or the people who
possess these traits. But if you are exhausted from another
dead end talking stage, maybe it's possible that this profile
of people are the people you keep meeting. These are
(15:55):
the people who keep coming across, coming into your lives,
either through dating, app or through friends or through wherever.
Maybe these can actors red flags or kind of an
early warning system for you that if someone is displaying
these things, hey, maybe this isn't leading where you think
it's going to be leading. Maybe you nip it in
(16:15):
the bud now. So this next big question we have
that I'm very keen to answer. Why is the talking
stage so psychologically intense even when we know we should
just be information seeking, even when we know we should
kind of keep our guard up until we're actually getting
to know them in person. So the reason it's so
(16:38):
psychologically intense is it the entire situation and the entire
emotional environment you are in is uncertain, and uncertain situations
take more from us mentally than certain ones. We are
constantly judging how much do I give, how much do
I show? Do I text back? What do I say?
Do they like me? Is this turning them off? Exhausting?
(17:01):
And sometimes this can turn into some mind games, some
dating games, you know, the games we play in the
talking stage like they are like no other. But what
one researcher has really argued is that games are actually
quite destructive to relationships. And actually the reason that we
play them is for self protection. It's not because we
(17:23):
are trying to move something along. It's because we're trying
to make sure that we aren't the first one who
is hurt. If they're not messaging you back right away,
then neither should you, because you don't want to feel
the full If they're only sending you videos on one
word replies, you should do that as well. By matching
their tone, we think that this will help us keep
(17:44):
us less invested, but actually changing our behavior to meet
theirs indicates the opposite. It indicates that we are invested
enough to notice. It indicates that we are invested enough
to not want to set them off or give them
a reason to not talk to us. Just a reminder,
you can never say the wrong thing to the right person,
(18:07):
Please resist the urge to play games. Authenticity in these
situations it is so key. I wish I had known
that sooner. There are so many times when if I
had just said what I meant and what I wanted
to say when I wanted to say it, I would
have been able to figure out someone so much quicker,
and I would have been able to realize that they
were never going to be what I was after. But
(18:29):
all of the success of thinking. The other thing that
it does is it leaves our brain assuming, hey, well,
this person must be important because we're constantly thinking about them,
We're changing our behavior for them. So it makes the
whole situation take on a much more serious tone. It
implants them in our brain. That is what makes it
(18:49):
so hard to let go and so intense. The other
reason it can be so psychologically intense talking stages. Talking
stages are by nature ambiguous. There aren't clear boundaries, but
there's all so much potential. Then there's the concept of
intermittent reinforcement. This is the same psychological mechanism that keeps
people addicted to slot machines at the casino or like
(19:13):
any form of gambling. You know you don't win every time,
but you win just enough to stay hooked. You know,
a good morning text one day and then the next
day nothing, a very flirty conversation followed by them not
saying anything for three days. It creates a psychological reward
loop that can feel very addictive. Of course, you know,
(19:34):
at the core of this experience again I'm going to
bring it up, is the potential that it could turn
into more. And that's really exciting, especially if you've been
single for a while or you are getting really great vibes.
And that leads to such an important question, how do
you not get attached too quickly? I've been there when
(19:54):
I was single. Oh my goodness, I would find it
so hard and not immediately we plan for a future
with someone when we don't only been talking for like
a few days. It can be so hard to not
think that everyone is the one. It can be so
hard to keep up your standards and to not get hurt.
So we're going to talk about the exact formula and
(20:14):
things you need to do to keep that distance in
the early stages when we return to stay with us.
I think a talking stage becomes particularly difficult when we
get attached. When we know we shouldn't we get attached
before we have any confidence that this is going to
(20:37):
actually go anywhere. Rationally, this is very hard, right because
we want to pump the brakes, but our mind, our heart,
whatever it is, has other plans, and we feel very
powerless over it. You know, this is what my experience was.
I just couldn't help myself. My thoughts kept going back
to that person, my behaviors automatically seem to change. I
(21:00):
would find myself idolizing the fantasy of them, constantly checking
my phone, and I would consciously be trying to stop,
and I couldn't do it. This is also particularly hard.
I think if you're someone who is quite anxious, even
a bit of a romantic, you know, who wouldn't chase
after the possibility of love, who doesn't want to fall
(21:22):
for the idea that they could be seen and loved.
That's what every person wants. It's only natural to have
that opportunity right in front of us, and to think
about it and to want it even more. But when
we do get attached too easily, it really has nothing
to do with what happens to the other person. Right.
Sometimes people worry about getting attached too quickly because they
(21:44):
think it's going to scare them off. I think what
we actually need to be worried about with this is
the consequences that it might have for us and our
own standards, our own wellbeing, our own state of mind,
what we look past when we shouldn't. So this is
what we need to do to just keep a bit
of our sanity. One of my favorite studies of all
(22:05):
time investigated the reason behind why we settled too soon,
and it found that this often happens when we are
bored or when the rest of our life has become
quite stagnant. We don't feel like we have much else
going on. The other factor is having a poor self
concept and feeling like this is as good as it's
(22:26):
going to get. This is as good as I'll find,
I may as well go for it. The way to
counteract this is to keep your life beyond deity, specifically
beyond the people you're talking to, as interesting and vibrant
and full as possible. Now, this has a few effects.
It means you won't be bored. We eliminate that you
(22:49):
won't be impressed by the bare minimum, but also you'll
have something else to think about to keep you distracted,
and the more you are passionate about in your solo life,
independent life, I think, the less you'll lower your standards
for someone who doesn't absolutely contribute and expand what you
already have. It's also really important to slow down the
(23:11):
part of your brain that is bound to start fantasizing.
This part of your brain is called the default mode network.
It's responsible for dreaming, fantasy, memory, creativity. Its counterforce is
our executive functioning. It's our rational mind which can come
(23:31):
into these fantasy scenarios and say, wow, that's pretty, that's
very nice. But here's the cold, hard truth. So the
way to do this is I want you to deliberately
call on your executive thoughts to notice when you're filling
in gaps with idealized versions of who this person could be,
not who they are. I want you to really be
(23:52):
on the lookout for signs that you are emotionally over
investing and when you are making assumptions about who they
are that is not supported by evidence. So what we're
going to try and do is date and connect, specifically talk,
talk and connect based on data, not on daydreams. So
(24:13):
I want you to ask yourself if you're still in
the talking stage. Do I like them or do I
like the feeling of them being interested in me? Am
I excited by the potential? Or am I actually enjoying
this conversation? Am I investing too much in the what ifs?
Or is this person actually giving me a good sign?
(24:37):
It can also help to really have these hard and
fast rules for when you can and cannot do certain
things with them, can and cannot bring up certain topics
to ensure you're not attaching too soon. First off, if
you've never met this person, you are not going to
share too much about your past dating history. You're not
going to talk about big topics for you. You're not
(24:58):
going to make future plans with them. You don't need
to tell them about your dreams. You don't need to
tell them about You don't need to tell them too
much about what's going on in your life, because I
think that can inadvertently bond when you start going on dates. Yeah,
that's fine, but talking stage no. We of course also
have the one month rule and one month they're out.
(25:20):
There's also this fantastic principle called and I think this
comes up later on, but in general advice for not
getting attached. Too quickly. It's called the three date or
three encounter rule, which essentially states that you need to
see people in three different contexts before deciding if they're
right for you. You need to see them sober, you
need to see them around others, and you need to
(25:41):
see them when they're stressed. Obviously, like I said, comes
in later on, but I think it's still mentally helpful
for you to understand when you are allowed to commit
and it's way down the line, and try and combat
the unconscious scarcity mindset that's probably sneaking in right now.
Let me just say this, this is not the only
(26:02):
person for you. There are more people who will be
interested in you because you are endlessly fascinating. You give
so much love to others, it's going to come back
to you. This is just an information seeking exercise, and
you have just as much control in this situation as
they do. Remember there's no winning year. There's also no losing.
(26:27):
There's no game. If this doesn't work out, that's because
something better is coming for you. You just have to trust
me when I say this. Showing up authentically and perhaps
missing out, but knowing you missed out for the right
reasons is better. Than you know, dating someone and realizing
that they've fallen for someone who is not you. They've
(26:50):
fallen for someone who was appeasing them, who was doing
things to make them more comfortable, who was pretending to
like things that they liked when really you didn't have
anything in common. It's why honesty in these situation is
always the best policy, even just asking someone on a date,
if they're not doing it for you like you want
to get an answer, that's the best way to get it.
(27:12):
Let's not talk about what happens when the talking stage
doesn't work out. I think it is okay to grieve
these situations. I think it is okay to acknowledge that
this is hard. Sometimes I do seriously believe that we
are essentially in a stage of mourning, even though it
(27:32):
might sound silly. We are warning the endless potential of
someone of what they could have been, which is sometimes
harder because it's fed by the unknown rather than reality.
It's what we call disenfranchised grief, grief that isn't necessarily
acknowledged by society, grief that isn't necessarily large, but which
(27:53):
still hurts even if it doesn't fit into the usual
box of what we deserve to feel sad about. You know,
when a relationship ends, you can kind of say, okay,
well it didn't work out for these reasons. We tried this,
we did this, we just didn't have it. But with
a talking stage, it is shrouded in all these what ifs.
(28:15):
What if we had been given a chance, What if
we just gone on that first date? You know, what
if they'd just gotten to know me? Don't they see
like this could have been something? That ambiguity is what
makes this so hard to process. It's not just the rejection,
it's the disappointment of the potential that was wasted by
someone else's indecisiveness or their own issues. So here's how
(28:39):
we're going to find some closure. You don't need to
block them, but you do need to implement some rules.
My biggest piece of advice would just be would just
be a straight upstate to them, Hey, you know, since
we're not going on a date, since this is kind
of going nowhere. I'm not sure if this has been
lost in translation, but I'm really only keen on being
able to meet people in person and actually get to
(29:02):
know you. I know you don't want to waste my time.
I don't want to waste yours either, so I think
I'm going to focus on some other things and other
people for a while. Really you need to be direct,
use this as a polite excuse to essentially stop replying,
stop interacting, maybe even mute them, move them to the
unseen folder on Messenger or Instagram. Create like some mental
(29:25):
roadblocks so that if you want to talk to them,
you have to consciously jump over some hurdles is to
basically get access to them, and hopefully those roadblocks serve
as a reminder of like, hey, we're not doing this,
we're not after this, we're walking away. Because you really
need to reflect on what you want you need to
(29:46):
after this point, really step back and realize that every
loss is a lesson, even the small ones. Maybe you
don't want to hear that right now, but instead of
ruminating on the unanswered questions of the what ifs, you
really do have to shift the answer inward. You know,
this experience has probably really taught you what you're actually after.
And before you get back out there and start chatting
(30:07):
to another person, especially if you're someone who gets invested
very quickly, I really want you to reframe and reassess
and reaffirm what you're after. It sounds like you're after
someone who wants to frickin date you. So take this
as a lesson, as an important sign of why it's
important to enforce boundaries, why it's important to be looking
(30:29):
for someone who is going to take action and who
wants to move things along. And I think know that
you've saved yourself a lot of future pain from cutting
it off now rather than waiting two, three, four, five
more months and then getting the shock of your life
when you were even more attached. You know, it's also
(30:51):
okay to just straight up distract yourself. This person probably
gave you a lot of dopamine. Potential is exciting, New
beginnings are exciting. There's a lot of positive feelings that
were chasing here. Where can we cultivate that elsewhere? What
can we pour our time and love and too that
isn't this person and isn't another person something bigger? So
if you're really feeling stuck in it, set a new goal.
(31:13):
Give back. Volunteer, foster a dog, foster a cat, go
and do some dog walking, Go and do some plant,
some planting, some community garden work, like get out of
your own mind, and your own problems, plan a weekend trip,
get your friends together, like there is nothing wrong with
a bit of distraction. Sometimes you really do need that
(31:33):
mental distance in order to integrate the experience. And also
understand that it might be shitty for me to say
this to you right now, this is an important part
of your story. This loss is actually again, my friend
Sophie said something to me the other day that I
really love, which is that is someone else's person and
(31:54):
it didn't work out between you two, because that was
meant to be part of their story to find person
they're meant to be with. And when you meet the
person you're meant to be with, you'll be thankful for
all of their failed talking stages, all the ones they
went to. You've got to be thankful, because yes, the
world is sometimes disappointing, but don't forget it's secretly working
(32:16):
in your favor as well. That failed talking stage has
meant that that person found their one, and it means
that someone else has failed talking stage means that you
guys are closer to meeting each other. Okay, with that
sentiment in mind, we're going to take a short break,
but when we return, let's discuss some of our really
(32:37):
amazing listener questions about everything from whether the talking stage
is different for lesbians, green flags in the talking stage,
and whether the taxi cab theory is real, So stay tuned.
Our first question, which I really should have addressed earlier,
(32:59):
is what are actual green flags during the talking stage.
I've got a couple. I think. Someone who asks questions,
someone who replies in under twelve hours, and even twelve
hours is a bit of a stretch. People are always
on their phones. They want to talk to you, they
will someone who is taking it somewhere. There is movement.
(33:24):
They're gauging your interest in plans, they are seeking your availability.
They're saying we should do these things and actually acting
on that. Someone who isn't sharing too much too soon,
I think is another green flag. You know, they're not
trying to have all the big, dark, maybe deep conversations online.
(33:44):
They're saving stuff for in person. And this one some
people might not agree with me. But someone who doesn't
make comments about your body or about sex during the
talking stage, like you don't even know this person yet.
If they're being like, oh we should do this and
making common it's about sexual things, I'm just like no,
that's this is not a good a good setup. So
(34:06):
those are my green flags, but definitely someone who was
like looking to get off the messaging on the dating
app situation. This next question, is the talking stage different
for lesbians? I don't know. So this question fascinated me.
I had to do some digging. I had two things
(34:27):
that I kind of came across. Women in general have
more mirror neurons. That's why. That's what makes us more empathetic,
more often emotionally aware, especially when we combine that with
social conditioning. You know, we are we are raised to
be quite more communicative, to be more vulnerable, to be
more open. So maybe if it was two women who
(34:50):
were dating, that would mean that they would be getting
to the dating part sooner because they're probably going to
be more direct and wanting to really connect with people.
That was my first theory which would make it different
for lesbians. I was also thinking about this stereotype, which
is that, yeah, the very famous myth that lesbians commit sooner,
(35:11):
they're moving faster, they have shorter talking stages. I did
some digging on that. There's a very well known study
actually one that we really should be talking about more
from Stanford University, which found that lesbian couples do not
shock up any faster than heterosexual pairs. This idea of
the U haul lesbian, of them moving in quicker, doing
(35:32):
things quicker, is not supported by evidence. So with all
that in mind, you know, I really didn't find any
actual fundamental evidence for a difference in a talking in
the talking stage for lesbians, Like, there is nothing about
that about them individually that's different from a heterosexual woman
(35:52):
that is going to mean that this is different for them.
That being said, I also know that the research community,
the psychology community a lot of the times, like they
don't really consider individuals of different sexualities in their research.
(36:13):
So there really is no way of knowing because no
one's done any real research on this. So if you
have a different opinion, if you have information that is
different to what I've said, or evidence to the contrary,
let me know and I'll do a little update on this,
because I think would be fascinating to know. My main
inclination is it's probably not different, Like in general, it's
(36:34):
probably not different. There might just be more individual differences
that are noticeable within those relationships that perhaps aren't being
talked about more I love this next question, How do
I stay interested on the apps? It accidentally goes to
many people because it's so boring. Yeah, often it's boring
because no one is messaging you back. Right, So firstly,
(36:56):
take a little break, just take a step back to
a dating detox. You think your priorities. Are you looking
for a relationship, are you looking for a fun Saturday night?
Are you just looking for sex? You gotta know what
you're after because that's gonna influence your approach when you
get back on the dating apps. Be intentional. How many
(37:16):
people are you swiping on? Are you only swiping on
people you really like? Or if you're looking for just
a fun Saturday night, are you swiping on everyone? Are
you being really direct with your messages or are you
looking for things to flow a little bit more? Bring
the energy. And I know it's so hard when some
people are just like a freakin' brick war. But what
(37:38):
I found useful in what a friend of mine who's
currently dating, was talking to me about the other day
was that she knows dating apps is sometimes a numbers
game and you just have to be in them, and
you just have to be committed to it. So she
clears her messages every evening, so she spends just ten
minutes replying to everyone until she begins to notice the
people she really wants to chat with, or until someone
(38:00):
stands out. She's like, you know what, if I want
to date properly and I want to be in a relationship,
I've got to be kind of systematic about it. And
I'm like, Okay, yeah, go off, girl like that. Maybe
that's maybe that's the way to do it. Maybe that's
just you just got to put in the energy the
same way you do when you're looking for a job,
right and you don't get any replies back, you just
got to keep going. But I'm rooting for you. I
(38:21):
would also say ask your friends to set you up
with people you never know. They might have someone sneaky
who they haven't told you about before, who they work with,
or who's a brother of a friend of a cousin
of a sister. That sounds kind of insisty, but you
know what I mean, like they might know someone. This
final question is the taxicab theory real so taxi cab theory.
(38:48):
You may have heard it on TikTok. I think it's
originally from sex and the City, which I had been
rewatching recently, which is perhaps why I was attracted to
this question. The theory is that it's about men, and
it's that men, essentially, at some stage in their lives,
this light goes on and they are ready for a relationship.
(39:10):
And as soon as they are ready for a relationship,
the same way as soon as you are ready for
a cab, you just get into the first one you see,
and that's your relationship, that's your cab. So the idea
is that men spend all this time wanting to have fun,
being uncommitted, and then one day a light will switch
and that's when they go searching for the searching for
the relationship. The first person they find who wants to
(39:32):
be in a relationship with them, that's how it's gonna work.
I think it kind of aligns with some real concepts
readiness theory, the commitment readiness theory which we talked about before.
People commit when they are ready, not necessarily when they
meet the right person, So yes, timing does matter. It
also kind of aligns with some of that milestone anxiety
(39:56):
someone might be experiencing, the commitment scripts that we all face,
the dating scripts of oh I'm getting to getting up there.
I'm getting to thirty five or whatever age it is
that people feel they really need to have someone, and
that could really trigger them to settle down because of
societal pressure. I in general don't think it's real. I
think it oversimplifies things. I think it keeps putting men
(40:19):
in charge of relationships and in control of any kind
of relationship dynamic they find themselves in, which I hope
we are evolving from that. And I also think there's
no reason why that wouldn't be the same case for
women as well. I think, really it's not about men,
it's not about women's about any gender. I think it's
(40:40):
just about the fact that some people do get to
a stage where they are ready to commit. Do they
necessarily jump into the first relationship they see? Maybe? I
think it's more that they really start taking dating more
seriously and they start not trying to find excuses for
why they shouldn't date. They start trying to find reasons
(41:00):
why they should. Some people would call that settling. I
think any relationship kind of requires some kind of compromise.
That sounds like that. So that's all we have time
for for these questions, My lovely listeners, If you have
made it this far, put an emoji in the comments
for how dating is currently making you feel? Whatever emoji,
you don't even need to explain it. What's the mood
(41:22):
of your dating vibe at the moment. If you have
a friend, relative colleague who needs to hear this episode,
send it to them. Maybe they can get something out
of it. Make sure you're following me on Instagram at
that psychology podcast. I love hearing your questions. I love
hearing what you think about this episode, So I'll see
you over there for even more behind the scenes content
(41:45):
and kind of announcements on upcoming events as well. But
until next time, stay safe, be kind, to be gentle
to yourself, good luck, May brave soldiers in the talking phase,
and we will talk. We will talk very very soon.
(42:06):
H
Hello everybody, or welcome back to the show. Welcome back
to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are
in the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties. I'm sitting here in the
studio with my dog. Actually, for those of you who
(00:21):
don't know, I foster failed. I have a dog now,
big life updates on that one. But I've been getting
warmed up for this topic because it is going to
be a supreme deep dive into what is slowly becoming,
i would say, a defining but also exhausting part of
modern dating in our twenties. That is the talking stage,
(00:42):
that kind of murky, unlabeled limbo where you're messaging someone
like every single day, you're flirting, you're sharing things, but
you're not dating. Maybe you haven't even met in person yet.
You're not really sure where things are going or if
they're going anywhere at all. Yeah, it's this strange thing
where this person has become part of your daily life.
(01:05):
You're kind of expecting things from them. So why do
we even have a talking stage and why has it
become so psychologically intense as of recent We're going to
break down the psychology behind this today, specifically, what makes
a talking stage so compelling? Why do we get attached
(01:29):
without even knowing someone? How do we protect ourselves from
emotionally investing in people that we are interested in while
still being open to communicating lots of big questions there
were also going to look at the personality traits of
people who extend and love a prolonged talking stage, perhaps
(01:52):
the people you should be avoiding, and the role of
certain traits like commitment, readiness, intermittent reinforcements. And also, this
is a big message for this episode, why playing games
game playing in the talking stage is basically going to
instantaneously mean that you are not going to be in
(02:14):
a relationship with that person. We need to be pursuing authenticity,
especially in this current dating environment where you know, dating
apps give us the illusion of endless choices and endless possibilities,
and no one wants to commit, no one wants to
go on dates. Being authentic and direct about what you
want is the only way. So if you have ever
(02:38):
felt stuck in a never ending talking stage, you are
not alone. I have been there, done that, got the
T shirt as have many other people in their twenties.
But we're going to unpack it today, all of the psychology,
as well as a little bit of a guide to
getting through the talking stage, how to find closure when
the talking stage perhaps ends, and my heart and fast
(03:00):
rules for exactly how long you should be chatting with
someone before you go on a date. So, with all
of that in mind, stay with us. So I want
to begin by kind of defining some parameters here the
talking stage to me, I know it has a few
(03:21):
different ways of being thought about, but for me, it
is the stage before you officially go on a date.
It's the lead up, it's the preamble. It may also
sometimes last past the first I would say two dates
if there is long gaps between when you are going
on dates in which you were talking. But it's really
that period where you're on each other's radar, but you're
(03:45):
not consistently dating. You're not planning for dates date one
or date two or date three. So essentially, the defining
feature of a talking stage is you are spending the
majority of your time communemmunicating with them over a messenger,
over text online, and not much time making concrete plans
(04:06):
or seeing each other in real life, which I think
we can all agree is really preferable. Let's talk about this.
Why do we even have a talking stage to begin
with if most people's experience of it is awful and
less than pleasant. Well, essentially, the talking stage is part
of what we call our modern dating script. So the
(04:28):
modern dating script is basically the storyline we all expect
a romance to follow. It's the script that influences how
you believe you should interact at certain times, what your
timeline should be. And it kind of goes like this.
You cross paths, you spend some time talking to figure
each other out, then you go on a date. You
(04:50):
on a few more dates, wait a few months, make
sure they're not seeing other people, make sure you're not
seeing other people, and hopefully you end up in a relationship.
During each stage or chat that there are different ways
of communicating and interacting with each other that we kind
of pick up from media, culture, society at large. Of course,
ending up in a relationship, most of us would be
(05:13):
able to tell this is not always the case. At
every stage of this script or this narrative, there is
a way for things to get complicated. The talking stage
is no different in some cultures and countries like there
is no talking stage. That's just not part of their
dating script, you know, the only talking that gets done
(05:34):
is asking someone to go out immediately. But it's definitely
becoming a more prominent part of how we viewed dating.
And actually this generation, more than any other, take longer
to decide if they want to date someone. A twenty
twenty four study it was one of the first to
really investigate the talking stage. It found that the talking
(05:57):
stage is what they would call a new relationship construct.
It is something that has really only emerged in the
past fifteen years. Before twenty I think it was like
twenty ten, twenty twelve, the talking stage was not really
part of our vocab, but wasn't really a term. It
wasn't really part of the early dating period. The reason
(06:20):
why people in this generation are spending more time in
the talking stage is because this period allows us to
assess compatibility. Yes, it does allow us to test if
we have the same interests, if we communicate the same,
if we have the spark. It does allow us to
tell is this person a total asshole? But it's also
being used to really protect us against pain and to
(06:44):
also help us avoid the emotional sunk costs that would
occur if we just dived in headfirst into a relationship.
That is typically what we think a talking stage is
meant to help us do. But this same study really
examined that an inc increase in the pool of potential
partners has facilitated this rides in the talking stage. The
(07:07):
main culprit being dating apps. People want to keep options
open because this you know, availability of other people is
so much more obvious. It's just this huge pressure that
there is always going to be someone else out there
who could potentially be better for you. So people want
to keep options open. People want to not settle down
(07:32):
as quickly or you know, choose someone. And the paradox
or irony of this is that normally they're actually missing
out on the person who is right in front of them,
who may be really great, because you keep thinking that
someone better out there exists when the person that you
are thinking of is completely made up. It's a classic
(07:54):
example of the paradox of choice. We have too many options.
Dating apps are creating the illusion of infinite possibilities that
makes it harder for people to commit because it makes
it makes the possibility of something better, seem a lot
more real. I think what's hard about this as well
is that the talking stage and the emergence of this
(08:17):
has only happened in the last fifteen years, and yet
we're still comparing our stories of dating to like the
love stories of before. And we're also facing confusion from
relatives and family members who have entirely different perspectives on
dating from when they were finding love, and so the
(08:37):
stigma feels very severe. It's very severe, but it's because
our reality is just simply different. Our families don't understand.
They think that dating is the way it was when
they were getting to know people, and so we're facing
this dual frustration of being like, well, I wish it was,
but also it's not so understand that this is just
something we have to deal with. So this is what
(08:59):
I believe. I'm going to give you a hard and
fast rule here. I believe the talking stage should be
entirely about information gathering and honesty, nothing more. I also
think it should not last longer than one month maximum maximum.
At one month, you've got a press pause or you've
(09:21):
got to make plans asap. It's like when you go
for a job and you have that initial interview to
see if you vibe that's what a date is meant
to be, not the talking stage. You know, imagine doing
a job interview. But it was entirely over email, Like
you don't really get to know someone, and you don't
really get to know someone over just texting either, Like
there's so many ways that they can create the illusion
(09:45):
or perception of who they are. You need to be
on that on that date, like you need to be
in person talking for real. You know, I get so
frustrated at today's dating culture that is so quick to
wear someone else's time in the name of getting to
know someone without ever actually taking them on a date,
(10:06):
especially when you're secretly comparing them to other options that
you have. You know, I know, we don't want to
regret our choice of romantic partner. It is a big
and significant decision. It does determine a lot of our happiness.
But how unfair, How unfair to just keep someone on
the line and just keep chatting to them and never
(10:28):
taking them on a date, because what you're waiting for
someone else to come along. If you have to question it,
if you have to question it before you've even met
them in person, I think you have to give the
other person the kindness of letting them go and letting
them go and find someone who is one hundred percent
yes about just wanting to meet them and see where
(10:50):
things go. Maybe not one hundred percent yes about the relationship,
but it's because you haven't got on a date yet.
Like the talking stage should only be about information, you
are not meant to be making any decisions. The decisions
should only be made based on the dates and the
real life exposure you have. I truly just think we
are just overthinking this. We're overthinking the talking stage. I
(11:13):
see people in like three months, six months, sometimes even
year long talking stages, and it's just like you're waiting
for a caterpillar to turn into a butterfly and realizing
the entire time that you had a stick. You know,
That's what that feels like. There is a certain profile
of individuals I see who I think really enjoy the
(11:34):
extended talking stage more than others, and they often display
the following traits. These are the people that if you
don't like a long talking stage like I do, like
I don't, I'm sorry I should say I don't like
a long talking stage. I never have I never will.
This is who you need to look up for. Firstly,
the first kind of person who loves a talking stage
(11:57):
and never a date is someone who is low in
a trait known as commitment readiness. So this was a
trait first identified by a paper published in twenty eighteen,
and the paper basically found that we all exist on
a spectrum of either wanting or not wanting commitment, and
(12:18):
at any point we are somewhere on that scale between
high commitment readiness, which means like you are ready to
go you are either in a committed relationship or like
the next person who comes along, you're going to grab
them and you're gonna make it happen, or your low
in commitment readiness, meaning you don't want to be attached
to anyone. So people who are low on commitment readiness
(12:40):
do not want a relationship. They may still want intimacy,
they may still want entertainment dopamine from the pursuit, but
they are also the ones who are most likely going
to keep you in the talking stage for longer because
they understand that once they move you into the dating zone,
then they're going to have to deal with the questions
(13:00):
of commitment. And this going somewhere. The talking stage is
a great pen power situation. It's a great limbo situation.
People do shift up and down this scale by the
way of commitment readiness. If you've just broken up with someone,
you're probably very low on the commitment readiness scale, but
if you just got married, you're obviously very high. So
(13:23):
maybe this person will change. Great news for you, though
you don't have to wait for that. There is no
point you're trying to force them to move up or
down the scale. That is something that they can only
do from themselves, and because they want to, there's no
point trying. You just need to move on. The Other
thing that talking stage proponents have in common is often
(13:45):
an anxious, avoidant, ambivalent attachment style. They've been hurt before.
The early childhood experiences have maybe taught them that closeness
equals pain, and so they may keep you at arm's
length as a way to protect themselves emotionally from really
investing in you. It doesn't mean they may not want more,
they just can't bring themselves to initiate it. Again, that's
(14:09):
a really hard situation, But at that point I do
think that you cannot wait around until their attachment style
suddenly heals, especially if they are not even willing to
ask people on dates, it shows that unfortunately, they do
have a lot of work to do themselves, and it's
(14:29):
not like things are going to change once you're suddenly dating.
Like the time where you should be most excited about
a relationship is when you're first getting to know someone,
and if they're not well, that's not going to get better.
The final trait I tend to notice for those who
love a talking stage is a class of people called
(14:49):
novelty seekers. Obviously, as humans, we have a baseline desire
and in fact a need for newness, for novelty in
our everyday lives. But some people find that this novelty
is most satisfying to them when it comes in the
form of human connection. So they are psychologically stimulated by
the uncertainty of getting to know people, the exploration and
(15:12):
the emotional novelty from talking stages. You know, talking stages
are fun, They're exciting. Everything is new, you don't know
and you don't know anything about this person. They can
be anything you want them to be, so they really
enjoy that. They love that like flirtatious tension, that possibility
that potential, but when things start getting real, well that
(15:33):
can be the end of that. You know, the high
is done for them, the fun is done. There's nothing
wrong with any of these things or the people who
possess these traits. But if you are exhausted from another
dead end talking stage, maybe it's possible that this profile
of people are the people you keep meeting. These are
(15:55):
the people who keep coming across, coming into your lives,
either through dating, app or through friends or through wherever.
Maybe these can actors red flags or kind of an
early warning system for you that if someone is displaying
these things, hey, maybe this isn't leading where you think
it's going to be leading. Maybe you nip it in
(16:15):
the bud now. So this next big question we have
that I'm very keen to answer. Why is the talking
stage so psychologically intense even when we know we should
just be information seeking, even when we know we should
kind of keep our guard up until we're actually getting
to know them in person. So the reason it's so
(16:38):
psychologically intense is it the entire situation and the entire
emotional environment you are in is uncertain, and uncertain situations
take more from us mentally than certain ones. We are
constantly judging how much do I give, how much do
I show? Do I text back? What do I say?
Do they like me? Is this turning them off? Exhausting?
(17:01):
And sometimes this can turn into some mind games, some
dating games, you know, the games we play in the
talking stage like they are like no other. But what
one researcher has really argued is that games are actually
quite destructive to relationships. And actually the reason that we
play them is for self protection. It's not because we
(17:23):
are trying to move something along. It's because we're trying
to make sure that we aren't the first one who
is hurt. If they're not messaging you back right away,
then neither should you, because you don't want to feel
the full If they're only sending you videos on one
word replies, you should do that as well. By matching
their tone, we think that this will help us keep
(17:44):
us less invested, but actually changing our behavior to meet
theirs indicates the opposite. It indicates that we are invested
enough to notice. It indicates that we are invested enough
to not want to set them off or give them
a reason to not talk to us. Just a reminder,
you can never say the wrong thing to the right person,
(18:07):
Please resist the urge to play games. Authenticity in these
situations it is so key. I wish I had known
that sooner. There are so many times when if I
had just said what I meant and what I wanted
to say when I wanted to say it, I would
have been able to figure out someone so much quicker,
and I would have been able to realize that they
were never going to be what I was after. But
(18:29):
all of the success of thinking. The other thing that
it does is it leaves our brain assuming, hey, well,
this person must be important because we're constantly thinking about them,
We're changing our behavior for them. So it makes the
whole situation take on a much more serious tone. It
implants them in our brain. That is what makes it
(18:49):
so hard to let go and so intense. The other
reason it can be so psychologically intense talking stages. Talking
stages are by nature ambiguous. There aren't clear boundaries, but
there's all so much potential. Then there's the concept of
intermittent reinforcement. This is the same psychological mechanism that keeps
people addicted to slot machines at the casino or like
(19:13):
any form of gambling. You know you don't win every time,
but you win just enough to stay hooked. You know,
a good morning text one day and then the next
day nothing, a very flirty conversation followed by them not
saying anything for three days. It creates a psychological reward
loop that can feel very addictive. Of course, you know,
(19:34):
at the core of this experience again I'm going to
bring it up, is the potential that it could turn
into more. And that's really exciting, especially if you've been
single for a while or you are getting really great vibes.
And that leads to such an important question, how do
you not get attached too quickly? I've been there when
(19:54):
I was single. Oh my goodness, I would find it
so hard and not immediately we plan for a future
with someone when we don't only been talking for like
a few days. It can be so hard to not
think that everyone is the one. It can be so
hard to keep up your standards and to not get hurt.
So we're going to talk about the exact formula and
(20:14):
things you need to do to keep that distance in
the early stages when we return to stay with us.
I think a talking stage becomes particularly difficult when we
get attached. When we know we shouldn't we get attached
before we have any confidence that this is going to
(20:37):
actually go anywhere. Rationally, this is very hard, right because
we want to pump the brakes, but our mind, our heart,
whatever it is, has other plans, and we feel very
powerless over it. You know, this is what my experience was.
I just couldn't help myself. My thoughts kept going back
to that person, my behaviors automatically seem to change. I
(21:00):
would find myself idolizing the fantasy of them, constantly checking
my phone, and I would consciously be trying to stop,
and I couldn't do it. This is also particularly hard.
I think if you're someone who is quite anxious, even
a bit of a romantic, you know, who wouldn't chase
after the possibility of love, who doesn't want to fall
(21:22):
for the idea that they could be seen and loved.
That's what every person wants. It's only natural to have
that opportunity right in front of us, and to think
about it and to want it even more. But when
we do get attached too easily, it really has nothing
to do with what happens to the other person. Right.
Sometimes people worry about getting attached too quickly because they
(21:44):
think it's going to scare them off. I think what
we actually need to be worried about with this is
the consequences that it might have for us and our
own standards, our own wellbeing, our own state of mind,
what we look past when we shouldn't. So this is
what we need to do to just keep a bit
of our sanity. One of my favorite studies of all
(22:05):
time investigated the reason behind why we settled too soon,
and it found that this often happens when we are
bored or when the rest of our life has become
quite stagnant. We don't feel like we have much else
going on. The other factor is having a poor self
concept and feeling like this is as good as it's
(22:26):
going to get. This is as good as I'll find,
I may as well go for it. The way to
counteract this is to keep your life beyond deity, specifically
beyond the people you're talking to, as interesting and vibrant
and full as possible. Now, this has a few effects.
It means you won't be bored. We eliminate that you
(22:49):
won't be impressed by the bare minimum, but also you'll
have something else to think about to keep you distracted,
and the more you are passionate about in your solo life,
independent life, I think, the less you'll lower your standards
for someone who doesn't absolutely contribute and expand what you
already have. It's also really important to slow down the
(23:11):
part of your brain that is bound to start fantasizing.
This part of your brain is called the default mode network.
It's responsible for dreaming, fantasy, memory, creativity. Its counterforce is
our executive functioning. It's our rational mind which can come
(23:31):
into these fantasy scenarios and say, wow, that's pretty, that's
very nice. But here's the cold, hard truth. So the
way to do this is I want you to deliberately
call on your executive thoughts to notice when you're filling
in gaps with idealized versions of who this person could be,
not who they are. I want you to really be
(23:52):
on the lookout for signs that you are emotionally over
investing and when you are making assumptions about who they
are that is not supported by evidence. So what we're
going to try and do is date and connect, specifically talk,
talk and connect based on data, not on daydreams. So
(24:13):
I want you to ask yourself if you're still in
the talking stage. Do I like them or do I
like the feeling of them being interested in me? Am
I excited by the potential? Or am I actually enjoying
this conversation? Am I investing too much in the what ifs?
Or is this person actually giving me a good sign?
(24:37):
It can also help to really have these hard and
fast rules for when you can and cannot do certain
things with them, can and cannot bring up certain topics
to ensure you're not attaching too soon. First off, if
you've never met this person, you are not going to
share too much about your past dating history. You're not
going to talk about big topics for you. You're not
(24:58):
going to make future plans with them. You don't need
to tell them about your dreams. You don't need to
tell them about You don't need to tell them too
much about what's going on in your life, because I
think that can inadvertently bond when you start going on dates. Yeah,
that's fine, but talking stage no. We of course also
have the one month rule and one month they're out.
(25:20):
There's also this fantastic principle called and I think this
comes up later on, but in general advice for not
getting attached. Too quickly. It's called the three date or
three encounter rule, which essentially states that you need to
see people in three different contexts before deciding if they're
right for you. You need to see them sober, you
need to see them around others, and you need to
(25:41):
see them when they're stressed. Obviously, like I said, comes
in later on, but I think it's still mentally helpful
for you to understand when you are allowed to commit
and it's way down the line, and try and combat
the unconscious scarcity mindset that's probably sneaking in right now.
Let me just say this, this is not the only
(26:02):
person for you. There are more people who will be
interested in you because you are endlessly fascinating. You give
so much love to others, it's going to come back
to you. This is just an information seeking exercise, and
you have just as much control in this situation as
they do. Remember there's no winning year. There's also no losing.
(26:27):
There's no game. If this doesn't work out, that's because
something better is coming for you. You just have to trust
me when I say this. Showing up authentically and perhaps
missing out, but knowing you missed out for the right
reasons is better. Than you know, dating someone and realizing
that they've fallen for someone who is not you. They've
(26:50):
fallen for someone who was appeasing them, who was doing
things to make them more comfortable, who was pretending to
like things that they liked when really you didn't have
anything in common. It's why honesty in these situation is
always the best policy, even just asking someone on a date,
if they're not doing it for you like you want
to get an answer, that's the best way to get it.
(27:12):
Let's not talk about what happens when the talking stage
doesn't work out. I think it is okay to grieve
these situations. I think it is okay to acknowledge that
this is hard. Sometimes I do seriously believe that we
are essentially in a stage of mourning, even though it
(27:32):
might sound silly. We are warning the endless potential of
someone of what they could have been, which is sometimes
harder because it's fed by the unknown rather than reality.
It's what we call disenfranchised grief, grief that isn't necessarily
acknowledged by society, grief that isn't necessarily large, but which
(27:53):
still hurts even if it doesn't fit into the usual
box of what we deserve to feel sad about. You know,
when a relationship ends, you can kind of say, okay,
well it didn't work out for these reasons. We tried this,
we did this, we just didn't have it. But with
a talking stage, it is shrouded in all these what ifs.
(28:15):
What if we had been given a chance, What if
we just gone on that first date? You know, what
if they'd just gotten to know me? Don't they see
like this could have been something? That ambiguity is what
makes this so hard to process. It's not just the rejection,
it's the disappointment of the potential that was wasted by
someone else's indecisiveness or their own issues. So here's how
(28:39):
we're going to find some closure. You don't need to
block them, but you do need to implement some rules.
My biggest piece of advice would just be would just
be a straight upstate to them, Hey, you know, since
we're not going on a date, since this is kind
of going nowhere. I'm not sure if this has been
lost in translation, but I'm really only keen on being
able to meet people in person and actually get to
(29:02):
know you. I know you don't want to waste my time.
I don't want to waste yours either, so I think
I'm going to focus on some other things and other
people for a while. Really you need to be direct,
use this as a polite excuse to essentially stop replying,
stop interacting, maybe even mute them, move them to the
unseen folder on Messenger or Instagram. Create like some mental
(29:25):
roadblocks so that if you want to talk to them,
you have to consciously jump over some hurdles is to
basically get access to them, and hopefully those roadblocks serve
as a reminder of like, hey, we're not doing this,
we're not after this, we're walking away. Because you really
need to reflect on what you want you need to
(29:46):
after this point, really step back and realize that every
loss is a lesson, even the small ones. Maybe you
don't want to hear that right now, but instead of
ruminating on the unanswered questions of the what ifs, you
really do have to shift the answer inward. You know,
this experience has probably really taught you what you're actually after.
And before you get back out there and start chatting
(30:07):
to another person, especially if you're someone who gets invested
very quickly, I really want you to reframe and reassess
and reaffirm what you're after. It sounds like you're after
someone who wants to frickin date you. So take this
as a lesson, as an important sign of why it's
important to enforce boundaries, why it's important to be looking
(30:29):
for someone who is going to take action and who
wants to move things along. And I think know that
you've saved yourself a lot of future pain from cutting
it off now rather than waiting two, three, four, five
more months and then getting the shock of your life
when you were even more attached. You know, it's also
(30:51):
okay to just straight up distract yourself. This person probably
gave you a lot of dopamine. Potential is exciting, New
beginnings are exciting. There's a lot of positive feelings that
were chasing here. Where can we cultivate that elsewhere? What
can we pour our time and love and too that
isn't this person and isn't another person something bigger? So
if you're really feeling stuck in it, set a new goal.
(31:13):
Give back. Volunteer, foster a dog, foster a cat, go
and do some dog walking, Go and do some plant,
some planting, some community garden work, like get out of
your own mind, and your own problems, plan a weekend trip,
get your friends together, like there is nothing wrong with
a bit of distraction. Sometimes you really do need that
(31:33):
mental distance in order to integrate the experience. And also
understand that it might be shitty for me to say
this to you right now, this is an important part
of your story. This loss is actually again, my friend
Sophie said something to me the other day that I
really love, which is that is someone else's person and
(31:54):
it didn't work out between you two, because that was
meant to be part of their story to find person
they're meant to be with. And when you meet the
person you're meant to be with, you'll be thankful for
all of their failed talking stages, all the ones they
went to. You've got to be thankful, because yes, the
world is sometimes disappointing, but don't forget it's secretly working
(32:16):
in your favor as well. That failed talking stage has
meant that that person found their one, and it means
that someone else has failed talking stage means that you
guys are closer to meeting each other. Okay, with that
sentiment in mind, we're going to take a short break,
but when we return, let's discuss some of our really
(32:37):
amazing listener questions about everything from whether the talking stage
is different for lesbians, green flags in the talking stage,
and whether the taxi cab theory is real, So stay tuned.
Our first question, which I really should have addressed earlier,
(32:59):
is what are actual green flags during the talking stage.
I've got a couple. I think. Someone who asks questions,
someone who replies in under twelve hours, and even twelve
hours is a bit of a stretch. People are always
on their phones. They want to talk to you, they
will someone who is taking it somewhere. There is movement.
(33:24):
They're gauging your interest in plans, they are seeking your availability.
They're saying we should do these things and actually acting
on that. Someone who isn't sharing too much too soon,
I think is another green flag. You know, they're not
trying to have all the big, dark, maybe deep conversations online.
(33:44):
They're saving stuff for in person. And this one some
people might not agree with me. But someone who doesn't
make comments about your body or about sex during the
talking stage, like you don't even know this person yet.
If they're being like, oh we should do this and
making common it's about sexual things, I'm just like no,
that's this is not a good a good setup. So
(34:06):
those are my green flags, but definitely someone who was
like looking to get off the messaging on the dating
app situation. This next question, is the talking stage different
for lesbians? I don't know. So this question fascinated me.
I had to do some digging. I had two things
(34:27):
that I kind of came across. Women in general have
more mirror neurons. That's why. That's what makes us more empathetic,
more often emotionally aware, especially when we combine that with
social conditioning. You know, we are we are raised to
be quite more communicative, to be more vulnerable, to be
more open. So maybe if it was two women who
(34:50):
were dating, that would mean that they would be getting
to the dating part sooner because they're probably going to
be more direct and wanting to really connect with people.
That was my first theory which would make it different
for lesbians. I was also thinking about this stereotype, which
is that, yeah, the very famous myth that lesbians commit sooner,
(35:11):
they're moving faster, they have shorter talking stages. I did
some digging on that. There's a very well known study
actually one that we really should be talking about more
from Stanford University, which found that lesbian couples do not
shock up any faster than heterosexual pairs. This idea of
the U haul lesbian, of them moving in quicker, doing
(35:32):
things quicker, is not supported by evidence. So with all
that in mind, you know, I really didn't find any
actual fundamental evidence for a difference in a talking in
the talking stage for lesbians, Like, there is nothing about
that about them individually that's different from a heterosexual woman
(35:52):
that is going to mean that this is different for them.
That being said, I also know that the research community,
the psychology community a lot of the times, like they
don't really consider individuals of different sexualities in their research.
(36:13):
So there really is no way of knowing because no
one's done any real research on this. So if you
have a different opinion, if you have information that is
different to what I've said, or evidence to the contrary,
let me know and I'll do a little update on this,
because I think would be fascinating to know. My main
inclination is it's probably not different, Like in general, it's
(36:34):
probably not different. There might just be more individual differences
that are noticeable within those relationships that perhaps aren't being
talked about more I love this next question, How do
I stay interested on the apps? It accidentally goes to
many people because it's so boring. Yeah, often it's boring
because no one is messaging you back. Right, So firstly,
(36:56):
take a little break, just take a step back to
a dating detox. You think your priorities. Are you looking
for a relationship, are you looking for a fun Saturday night?
Are you just looking for sex? You gotta know what
you're after because that's gonna influence your approach when you
get back on the dating apps. Be intentional. How many
(37:16):
people are you swiping on? Are you only swiping on
people you really like? Or if you're looking for just
a fun Saturday night, are you swiping on everyone? Are
you being really direct with your messages or are you
looking for things to flow a little bit more? Bring
the energy. And I know it's so hard when some
people are just like a freakin' brick war. But what
(37:38):
I found useful in what a friend of mine who's
currently dating, was talking to me about the other day
was that she knows dating apps is sometimes a numbers
game and you just have to be in them, and
you just have to be committed to it. So she
clears her messages every evening, so she spends just ten
minutes replying to everyone until she begins to notice the
people she really wants to chat with, or until someone
(38:00):
stands out. She's like, you know what, if I want
to date properly and I want to be in a relationship,
I've got to be kind of systematic about it. And
I'm like, Okay, yeah, go off, girl like that. Maybe
that's maybe that's the way to do it. Maybe that's
just you just got to put in the energy the
same way you do when you're looking for a job,
right and you don't get any replies back, you just
got to keep going. But I'm rooting for you. I
(38:21):
would also say ask your friends to set you up
with people you never know. They might have someone sneaky
who they haven't told you about before, who they work with,
or who's a brother of a friend of a cousin
of a sister. That sounds kind of insisty, but you
know what I mean, like they might know someone. This
final question is the taxicab theory real so taxi cab theory.
(38:48):
You may have heard it on TikTok. I think it's
originally from sex and the City, which I had been
rewatching recently, which is perhaps why I was attracted to
this question. The theory is that it's about men, and
it's that men, essentially, at some stage in their lives,
this light goes on and they are ready for a relationship.
(39:10):
And as soon as they are ready for a relationship,
the same way as soon as you are ready for
a cab, you just get into the first one you see,
and that's your relationship, that's your cab. So the idea
is that men spend all this time wanting to have fun,
being uncommitted, and then one day a light will switch
and that's when they go searching for the searching for
the relationship. The first person they find who wants to
(39:32):
be in a relationship with them, that's how it's gonna work.
I think it kind of aligns with some real concepts
readiness theory, the commitment readiness theory which we talked about before.
People commit when they are ready, not necessarily when they
meet the right person, So yes, timing does matter. It
also kind of aligns with some of that milestone anxiety
(39:56):
someone might be experiencing, the commitment scripts that we all face,
the dating scripts of oh I'm getting to getting up there.
I'm getting to thirty five or whatever age it is
that people feel they really need to have someone, and
that could really trigger them to settle down because of
societal pressure. I in general don't think it's real. I
think it oversimplifies things. I think it keeps putting men
(40:19):
in charge of relationships and in control of any kind
of relationship dynamic they find themselves in, which I hope
we are evolving from that. And I also think there's
no reason why that wouldn't be the same case for
women as well. I think, really it's not about men,
it's not about women's about any gender. I think it's
(40:40):
just about the fact that some people do get to
a stage where they are ready to commit. Do they
necessarily jump into the first relationship they see? Maybe? I
think it's more that they really start taking dating more
seriously and they start not trying to find excuses for
why they shouldn't date. They start trying to find reasons
(41:00):
why they should. Some people would call that settling. I
think any relationship kind of requires some kind of compromise.
That sounds like that. So that's all we have time
for for these questions, My lovely listeners, If you have
made it this far, put an emoji in the comments
for how dating is currently making you feel? Whatever emoji,
you don't even need to explain it. What's the mood
(41:22):
of your dating vibe at the moment. If you have
a friend, relative colleague who needs to hear this episode,
send it to them. Maybe they can get something out
of it. Make sure you're following me on Instagram at
that psychology podcast. I love hearing your questions. I love
hearing what you think about this episode, So I'll see
you over there for even more behind the scenes content
(41:45):
and kind of announcements on upcoming events as well. But
until next time, stay safe, be kind, to be gentle
to yourself, good luck, May brave soldiers in the talking phase,
and we will talk. We will talk very very soon.
(42:06):
H
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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