April 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Why ‘Busy’ Doesn’t Mean Healthy — Dr. Judith Joseph Explains High Functioning Depression + More
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's up its way up at Angela.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Ye, and y'all know by now my girl coach Jesse
is here with me the detox now, yes, ma'am, all right,
and you brought a friend with you, which I'm excited about.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
So April is Stress Awareness Month, and you know, one
of the things, as black women, we are always under
so much pressure trying to hold it down between work
and family, and a lot of times we don't realize
that we may be dealing with something that's not just
chronic stress, but it actually may be something that's deeper.
And what when I met you know, doctor Joseph, and
(00:40):
I learned about the work she's doing. I learned that,
you know what, there's something that we can be dealing
with that's beyond just kind of like being busy. There's
the pressure of like we're getting everything done, we are
the go to person. But still inside even though we
look like high achievers, hi, we're actually looking like we're functioning.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Also like it's normal and achieving. All these things say
it's busy, right to be exhausted.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Inside you're exhausted, but not just exhausted, you're joyless. You're
numb and anxious, and that is where we need to
look at are we actually dealing with high functioning depression.
So you know, doctor Judith is a researcher, a.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Psychiatrist, and an author.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Obviously her book is just releasing yay this week.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
Yay, So congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
And I was so excited to have her join us
to have this conversation because she's not just someone who
researched it, but she lived it.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Love for you to just share with us your.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Story, Yeah, thank you, Jesse. Coach Jesse, because what happens
is that people are comfortable saying I'm burnt out, you know,
I'm exhausted, but if you say I'm depressed, it's like crickets.
It makes people feel awkward. But the reality is that
many of us are actually walking around with high functioning depression,
wearing this mask of pathological productivity, being busy, being in
(02:02):
the rock, doing all these things. But we're struggling inside
with symptoms of depression and we're calling it something different.
So that's why the things that we think will help
us feel better don't and we're not getting better. So
we have to name it and identify it so then
we use tools that actually treat it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And this was something you identified within yourself tales yes,
and which is not an easy thing for us to
actually say to ourselves because as somebody who from childhood,
you've been such a high achiever with so many accomplishments.
But I saw also, I've seen you post the pictures
of yourself throughout the years and the things that we
(02:40):
see as accomplishments, but also the underlying issues that you
were having within yourself that you didn't even know.
Speaker 6 (02:47):
Yeah, I didn't even know. And I'm a board sort
of for a psychiatrist and researcher, and it snuck up
on me. Like I remember sitting at a desk teaching
this large hospital system in twenty twenty how to get
through uncertainty. They were like asking questions. It's like, yeah,
just like what's going to happen?
Speaker 5 (03:03):
What do I do?
Speaker 6 (03:04):
And halfway through that talk, I was like, wait a second,
I think I'm depressed. It like hit me and I
was like, and I have no joy. And that's something
called anne hedonia. It's a research term that a lot
of people have never heard of. But I'm trying to
change that. So, like you're doing so much, you are
the human doing You're not a human being, right, you're
showing up for others. You're so busy, and if you
(03:26):
sit still you feel restless. You know, if you're not working,
you feel empty. And when I started talking about this
to people, they're like, that's what it is. They just
didn't have a name for it. So it's important because
this can be an indicator that something is going on
that you need help. But if you go to your
doctor and you're like checking all these symptoms of depression,
(03:46):
but the last checkbox is empty because you are still functioning.
You're actually overfunctioning, they'll say, come back when you break down,
because we can't really do anything for you right now.
I'm trying to change that.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
So they're sending you away like everything's okay. But the
truth is you are depressed.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
Yeah, you have these symptoms, but in order to meet
criteria for depression, you have to check that final box
of you're no longer functioning or you're in distress. Well,
what about people who have to keep going and what
about people who don't have the word to describe what
they're going through. They're not being addressed because we're waiting
for you to break down, which is it sounds like counterintuitive,
(04:23):
like why would you wait for someone to break down?
But that's just the way the system is. But we're
seeing that there's a change with like cancer, Like people
aren't saying wait till you get to stage three cancers. Yeah,
they're saying, let's prevent the cancer. You know, we're seeing
it with heart disease. Let's not wait for the heart attack,
let's prevent it. Or even with a stocker.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Every can you can do anything until something happens, even
if you're really won't.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
So what's the actual if? For Layman's terms, how would
you define high functional depression?
Speaker 6 (04:51):
So you have these symptoms of depression, you can go
onto my website and you can take the test. There's
a high functioning test. It's free, and you go through
the symptoms of pression and you see if you have them.
And the hallmark is that a lot of us are overfunctioning.
So no matter what we do. One of the questions
on there is no matter what we do, we never
feel like it's enough.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
You keep going and.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
How many But that's so normalized at because it makes
you feel like if you don't feel that way, you're
not doing enough in a way. But then it's also
the absence, like you said, of joy and herdonia, because
you always keep pushing the bar like, Okay, I'll be happy.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
When this happens. I do that all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm like, I feel better when this happens or I
finally have a chance, But then there's always something else
after that that you're delaying it until you're delaying your
happiness until you reach something, but then there's always something
moving carrot right.
Speaker 6 (05:44):
I'm glad you brought that up, because that's exactly what
people say when they come to my office. They're like, doctor,
I just want to be happy. And when I ask them,
like what is happiness, they're like, oh, it's when I
get that job, or when I finally get a house,
when I pay off my debt. It's always this idea.
But in my research lab it's the opposite. When we
measure happiness, we're adding up points of joy. So the
(06:07):
questions we ask like the questions you'll see on my website,
like when you ate your food, did it taste good?
When you took a nap, did you feel rested?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Can you find joy in a moment these moments?
Speaker 6 (06:18):
And that's how we measure it. In science, we add
up the points and then overall that's what makes us
measure whether or not there's happiness. But in the real
world we're like, well, i'll be happy one. So it's
an idea versus joy as an experience, and we're missing
out on joy.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
We're leaving our points on the table.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I want to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Also in the book, you discuss how in order for
you to become a psychiatrist, you also had to see
one yes, right, and that wasn't easy for you. And
I think that's so interesting, right because I do feel
like right now, more than ever, people have been talking
about going to therapy and trying to make that feel
(06:57):
I've seen people say if he's not seeing a therapist,
I don't want to date why people are really saying that.
And so, what was a breakthrough moment for you? Because
I know people who are listening they need to know
that these are steps you had to go through. But
also do you feel this pressure to be perfect because
of who you are and what you do?
Speaker 6 (07:15):
Yeah, you know, I wasn't always going to be a psychiatrist.
I'm from a very traditional Caribbean home Christian home, and
when I went to medical school, I was the first
doctor in my family. So when I told my parents
I wanted to be an anti sosiologist, they were like, great,
and I'll just make a lot of money, you know,
like that's a real doctor, a doctor.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
But I was.
Speaker 6 (07:35):
I was miserable in that field and I was actually
going through a depression when I was in that field.
And so when I actually said I want to get
out of that, and my friend was a psychiatrist in
training at the time, she was like, this is great.
And I had done this rotation in South Africa where
I was helping little kids through their trauma and I
love that in medical school, so I was like, I
want to see if I could do that because that
was very fulfilling. A switched to psychiatry and they were saying,
(07:58):
you know, all the residents and training get free like
low cost to free therapy, so it's really cheap to
see some of the most expensive psychiatrists in the city.
So I just remember going to this very fancy office
on the Upper East Side and I was like, what
does this man know about me? Like, I'm from the Caribbean,
I didn't have money growing up. He didn't know me,
and there are all of his patients around him were
(08:19):
all rich and like very well dressed and stuff. But yeah,
like I didn't think I had mental health issues. I
was like, I'm just gonna do it because everyone else is,
but I'm not. I don't have any problems. And boy
was I wrong. Boy, there was so much trauma that
was unpacked, like growing up with very little. I had
no idea that the reason I pushed myself to, you know,
(08:40):
get good grades and like constantly working overfunctioning was because
I never wanted to be in a position of lacking again.
So that scarcity trauma was something that pushed me to
be high functioning. And I talk about that in the
book as well.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I love that you brought up trauma because you know
that does you talked about it plays a major role.
How much of a role does process trauma, you know,
play in high function depression.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Well, I know you're an expert in that mind body connection, right,
that fight or flight. That's the busyness, right, some of
us we can't sit still. And it's different from burnout
because with burnout, you know, it's the work plash, Well,
it's the workplace that's causing it. By definition, burnout is
an occupational hazard. But for us high functioning, functioning people,
(09:25):
when you leave the workplace, we're not just working. We're like,
we're helping somebody else with their problems. We're helping our
kids doing a project. I got a bazillion projects going
on because we can't sit still. And I don't think
people realize that's related to unprocessed trauma.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
We're constantly driving it about when you look at the trauma,
what is actually driving the way that you're not stopping.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
That's the piece it is. It's the avoidance. That's how
we avoid.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
It's interesting because even now I feel like that's definitely me.
People tell me all the time, you can't say still
just do like, but I made a commitment to myself,
like I have a lot of things that were in
the practice of getting done, and I was like, you know,
as in the second half of this year, I'm going
to just take it easy. I'm not trying to like
put more on my plate until I can handle what
I have on my plate now, just because I feel
(10:15):
like I just give myself so much to.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Do that I'm like, yeah, why do I that self?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Love?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
But you know, I might be pushing the bar and
then because I'm like, you know, you never know, like
things happen, but I really have made that commitment because
the other thing that's hard, like you said, is you
want to show up for everybody, and it's hard to
say no sometimes, but you need to, well.
Speaker 6 (10:38):
Angela, one of the symptoms of trauma, unprocessed trauma is
internalizing blame and guilt. So us high functioning folks like
if we don't show up for others, we feel guilty.
We're like or we call ourselves lazy. You know, it's ridiculous.
We're doing so much, but we internalize it.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
It's the message we're getting, we're saying to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
It is it's how.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
We tie our worth to our role. But we were
someone before our role. We just have to work ourselves back.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I wonder if we could touch a little bit on how,
you know, Infertility Awareness Week is coming up and how
women who actually are dealing with infertility and I'm wearing
orange in honor of you all because I was one
dealt with it for ten years and that is a
traumatic thing, right and can push you into high function depression.
Speaker 6 (11:27):
Would you say absolutely? You know, in PTSD research, post
traumatic stress to sort of research, the traumas that are
really identified as being the key traumas are not things
like that. And so when I do my research and
people come in and they're like, I've had you know,
so many miscarriage carriages that cow and I'm like, I
believe you, but according to this box, I can't say yes,
(11:49):
And that's so invalidating. So that's why I created these
like frequizes on our website where you can put in
these type of traumas, and that is definitely one of them.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Those you're trail actually voice and an opportunity for people
to to examine and process what they're going through in
light of this.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
Yeah, because a trauma is something that shapes the way
that you view yourself in the world and the way
that you interact with the world, something that's painful, and
it doesn't have to be this big assault. It could
be something like, yeah, it's true, multiple miscarriagters, right.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
I mean that's huge.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And doctor Joseph As, you are the first person to
really dig and do this research on high functioning depression.
How have other people received it in the medical world?
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (12:36):
How much time do you have them?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I'm just curious because being the first person being a
black woman, which and being the person that and you
have a book out about it, and you've really done
the research. How are other people because sometimes other people
cannot be accepting of things that maybe they don't even understand.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Well. Initially the feedback was that's not a real thing.
You know.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
Wait, there are still functioning, which again I think is
a broken model. Right, we have to help people before
they stop functioning. Initially they said that, But then I
teach at NYU.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I teach medical doctors, okay, and yuse my mom oh.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
I teach some of the young doctors how to create
content to educate the public about mental health issues. And
so one of the things they asked me was can
you help us create social content because I already taught
them like you know, TV, press radio. So I said,
let me do a little test. I'll do a video
on high functioning depression a day in the life, and
we'll see how it does. I thought maybe one hundred
(13:34):
people will watch it. It was seen over twenty million
times around the world.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
So I was on that resonated Yes, and what we're
saying is.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
A lot right, people like, how do you have a
camera in my home? How do you know what my
day listening?
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Wow, So that got the attention of the same people
who were like, it's not a thing. They were like,
I think it's a thing.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
I'm like.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
That though, because you you saw it, you gave it voice,
you put it out there, even though people were trying
to tell you wasn't even valid.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Kudos to you.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
That's fantastic. And even doing social media. That was something
that also might be like in the in the medical world,
like what is this. This is not the normal traditional
way that we do things.
Speaker 6 (14:15):
It's not And initially people were like, oh, what are
you trying to be an actor? And I'm like, I
grew up in a church where my dad, who's a pastor,
put us on stage three times a week.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Whether we wanted to or not.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
We had to act on Bible skits, we had to say,
we have to do everything. So it just came naturally
to me. People understand when you explain things in an
entertaining waytely, it's not rocket science.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Don't make it rocket science.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Now.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Another thing that you did was you traveled in broad
to see how different cultures also approach mental health.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
What are some things you learned from that? Because that's
fascinating to me.
Speaker 6 (14:51):
It is fascinating. You know, a lot of the terms
like narcissism, you know, like we think it's gas lighting. Yeah,
gas I think it's just an our culture on the
side of the world. But when you go to places
like India and you see a guru talking about the
ego and putting your ego aside, that's what he's saying,
don't be a narcissist, right, So mental health is everywhere
in the Caribbean. You know, like when my parents found
(15:14):
out it was going to be a psychiatrist, are like, way,
hanging out with a.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Crazy people.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
Sounds right, But now they're so open to My dad
is like, let's do mental health, like.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
You know the church and I'm like, what pastor.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
But yeah, in the Caribbean, a lot of times I
do outreach within the Caribbean American community. I'm Trinidadian, so
I say, you know, mental health is ours. We're just
calling it something different. Like you know, when you eat
a curry and your ROTI those you know spices in
there that is anti inflammatory. That's like, actually, yes, helping
your brain. Okay, you're moving in your wine inside to side.
(15:55):
That's bilateral stimulation.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Okay, we got all right, Carnival coach Jesse.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Now all right.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Now, another thing that you also discussed, and I think
this is important is venting.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
The importance in venting, but the right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Can we talk about that here, because I think this
is something that a lot of people need to understand,
including myself absolutely.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
You know, venting is when you express emotions and sometimes
we trauma dump. We don't that like, we don't we
don't ask consent, we don't say, hey, you know, is
it okay? If I talk to you, we're just like right,
and so we're not checking in to see how the
other person feels it's good. And when you're venting without intention,
you're not there for a specific goal. Like when you
(16:45):
vent pick one or two people. Talk to someone you
know is going to give you feedback that's honest and
not just what you want to hear. Right, and think
about who you're venting to, like are you venting to
an employee? Are you venting to a child? You know,
think about that power dynamic. Yes, because they're not going
to say no. If you're the boss, they're gonna be like,
all right, boss. And then they're gonna talk about you
(17:05):
behind their back or vent at home to someone else.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Right, are there scenarios where the venting cannot because you know,
one of the things we look at is there's times
where you really just need to feel the feelings. Yes, right,
and it's not time to give feedback yet. It's really
just time to don't like vent, right, because I deal
with this with my daughter. She's thirteen and she has
(17:28):
a lot, which is good because it's healthy that she
actually is sharing what's going on, and I typically I
want to, well, is that give her feedback I'm learning now?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
It's like, no, you just got.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
To let her first of all, let her process it
and then really do the list and then maybe come
back a little afterwards or asked, do you want to
hear about that?
Speaker 6 (17:48):
No, When with teens especially, you want to do active listening.
You want them to tell you how they feel, but
then don't try to solve the problems. You know, like
imagine your hands being like you're sitting on your hands,
sit on my head, don't do any thing.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Just listen.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
But what's also helpful with teenagers is to have them
self vent first, so they write their feelings into a journal,
and then they talk about how they feel, and then
they cool off a bit, and then they come to
the person. Because a teen's brain is way more impulsive
than our brain, so they're gonna be like, you know,
self done and you know, and then connect.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
One of the things you said earlier was, you know,
mental health is ours.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Everybody's right. Why it's been found.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think you've talked about how people of color are
more vulnerable, caregivers are more vulnerable. There are populations that
are more vulnerable, and why is that.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Well, the caregiving is big. In my study, the first
study ever published in a par review journal for high
function depression, we found a high correlation between that and caregivers.
They're constantly giving, they're constantly thinking about someone else. They
don't have time to break down, right, That's why they're
at risk for wearing that mask of productivity, because they
can't show how they feel. So definitely they are at risk.
(18:59):
But I say mental health is ours because we're all
built with the DNA for joy.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Yeah, we all.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
Have dopemine in our brains. We just we forget how
to access it. And that's why I came up with
that method. The five v's because when you think about
your hand, right, most of us have five fingers, right,
But if you can tap into one of those v's
a day, you can reclaim your joy.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
It's our birthright to be joyful.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
Yes, So the first V validation VALIDATIONWAD acknowledge how you
feel and accept it good or bad. You know, I'd
liken it to being in like a dark room and
if something fell or something made a big noise, you
wouldn't know what it was. You start swinging, you didn't know,
But if you turn the light on, you see, oh,
it's just something that you know fell. It's not going
(19:42):
to hurt me. That's how acknowledging your feelings is. By
acknowledging and knowing how you feel, you're decreasing the uncertainty
and you're more at ease.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
You're increasing the safety, right because when there's uncertainty, you're
feeling that fight or flight. So it's I'll let you
continue that because I want to get into the nervous system.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
But that's obviously right when you know what you're dealing with,
That itself is a therapeutic intervention because you know it
now so you know what to do next.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
And the second V is venting.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
That's the expressing fee.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
For some people that don't like to talk, that's okay.
Pray crying is a good way to journaling.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
Like you said, journaling, just get it out right. And
the third is values. What are the things in life
that are priceless, not with price tags, you know? For me,
I used to chase the degrees and this and the accolades,
but what really gives me a sense of purpose and
meaningless connection. So be real about what your values are.
And I list them all in the book as well.
(20:40):
And then the fourth is vitals. Take care of your
body and brain because you only get one and you're
here for a reason. There's only one Jesse, only one Angela,
only one Judith ever to exist and in the future
of the universe, so take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Jesse likes that I've been preaching that, yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
So for envision, when we tevision.
Speaker 6 (21:00):
Vision is how do you plan join the future so
you don't get stuck in the past, you keep moving forward.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
So I've heard a therapist was talking about how people
who can think about the future, plan for the future
are less to have a psychotic episode.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Having something to look forward to. We all need hope.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
That's my goal. That's what I do.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I do give myself things to look forward to, even
if it's like Christmas, I'm going away.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
It's something I think about every day.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
And that's that's a big one right now. It doesn't
have to be a big like after I finished with
you all, I'm gonna have a really nice macho latte.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
I'm looking forward to that. You know, it's little.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Things that you can control.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Schedule a massage for next week, and it's like, but
it is things that you're like, all right, at least
I'm gonna get this massage next week.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Isn't feel so good. I need it in my back.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
But you're right, And those are the things I do
feel like. That's something that I have. Like Dan is
the way he just my producer got married. I'm like
when he I'm taking a day. So those are the things.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Now. Another thing that now, there's certain.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Jobs, and you talk about there's certain professions that actually
will make you more prone to high functioning depression.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Like the caregier thing, right.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so can we talk about that because even for
you when you were anesthesiologist, that affected you so much
that you would like time to make a switch. How
do people know when it's okay? How can I work
on this? Or maybe I just can't even do this
at all anymore.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Maybe it's toxic for me, Maybe it's really dangerous for me.
Speaker 6 (22:30):
Right, And that member burnout is tied to the occupation.
Sometimes it's the case of both, right, a job burning
you out, and you also have that internal restlessness that
no matter what job you're in, you're going to be overproducing. Right,
So it can be both. But there are certain you know,
industries that are prone for this entertainment, you have to
always be on. You can't like who wants to hire you.
(22:51):
You're not going to get the gig if you're sad, right, Right,
So you're constantly in productive mode, right. Healthcare you're taking
care of page. You're not looking after yourself. Sometimes I
talk to nurses. They haven't peed all day?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Right, right, Wow, haven't had any water done?
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Nothing?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Like teachers, Yes, teacher, man, that's such a tough job
that I feel like they don't get the rewards that
they deserve.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
They don't.
Speaker 6 (23:19):
They're invalidated all the time. And entrepreneurs right constantly thinking
about whether or not they're going to fail. That fair
of failure keeps them busy even when they're not at work.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, frontline workers, it's like you don't get to have
your own life. No. Right, when we look back at
the pandemic, it was like even though everybody was going
through something, they still had to show up for everybody.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
They do, they do. They are constantly thinking about others.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Can I ask you about something else that I've seen too?
Attack to Joseph, I want to talk about people who
are always a victim no matter what the situation is,
because there are people that actually, no matter what happens,
they'll find a way to make it seem like they
were wronged somehow in a situation, or this happened to
me and that's why this is the situation, instead of saying, well,
(24:09):
maybe I could have done something differently, or perhaps I
played a role in this.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I know a few people who are kind of
like that.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
They're always like complaining about venting about how somebody did
this to them and that's why this happened.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
How would that be categorized? Yeah, it's so different from
what the high functioning folks do. We blame ourselves, like,
oh I wish I had done something differently or I
wouldn't be like this. But other people who have a
hard time with accountability that could be for different reasons.
They may have been raised in a household where they
were praised and they were like the favorite.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
Chalivated, right, yeah, and the other.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
Kids were the bad ones. And so if you're not
taught along the way to have that empathy and to
be able to see someone else's perspective, then you're always right.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
You're the self awareness right, because you're not taught to
look and reflect on yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
If you know somebody, you're close to, somebody who you like,
I feel like nah, hearing dad to Joseph speak, that
person might have high functioning depression, but they're not really
willing to listen or accept that. How do you deal
with that? Like, how do you get somebody to open
up their minds help?
Speaker 6 (25:15):
Know that this person does not want to burden you,
so they're not going to acknowledge that they need help.
But that's okay. You know, you want to show them
that they don't have to be performing or doing to
gain your acceptance and love. So you can tell them,
you know, I don't we don't have to do nothing.
You don't have to cook, you have to take me out.
I will be happy just sitting with you because I'm
here just for you.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
And you know, on the surface level their brain they
may not be able to take that in, but over time,
on a deeper level, it'll sink in.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I think I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
It's like it's starting to give them a safe place, right,
creating a safe place without them feeling like you're asking
them to do anything and you don't need anything from them, right,
So literally just being with them where they are.
Speaker 6 (25:57):
Yeah, and also realizing that this is a trauma. Responts
likely that after a trauma. We told children and adults
number one, it is not your fault. So know that
they're likely thinking, well, they must have done something in
life to be this way, right, So make sure that
they know it's not their fault, that you're there for
them no matter what.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Right.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
And when they see that, they can let down their guards,
they can slow down, they can just be They don't
have to be busy all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
One thing you also referenced a few times in the
book was getting divorced and how hard that was. What
were some of the things that you did to be
able to accept that and and keep it moving.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
Well, divorce is one of the traumas I put in
the Trauma Inventory.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
You won't it's found in the regular you won't find
it in the record.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But it is.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
Hard, you know, especially if kids and their financial issues involved.
So I put that in there for a reason because
it's one of those tap boots people won't talk about.
For me, as someone who had to be like perfect
all the time, it was very diffult for me to
talk about. And I think I talk about in the
book about how I didn't even tell my therapist about it,
and she's like.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
What, she had no idea.
Speaker 6 (27:09):
But it's important because it's something that a lot of
people busy themselves to distract from. And I've seen it
in my patients. When I go to these talking agents,
people say it too. It's one of those traumas that
does that to you, so acknowledge it.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah, it's like somehow you're trying to convince yourself that
it's not because something was wrong with you.
Speaker 6 (27:28):
Well, or that you the opposite, like you think you
must have done something.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Right that I'm saying I must have done.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, the people down because my mom she's Caribbean.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Oh yeah, and my grandparents are super religious, and so
for them it was like divorces and no, no, like
you absolutely cannot.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You have to figure it out.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
I'm not even thinking what that could.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
It could cause more damage staying in a relationship, definitely, because.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Sometimes it feels like society looks at it like you
gave up if you get divorced instead of saying I
want happiness.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Divorce content is some of the busiest. Look at the
the comments is like a full on brawl. I did
this one video on generations like looking at how boomers,
maget X, millennials, and gen Z approach divorce. That is
one of my most viral videos because people have very
strong opinions about divorce. I'm not saying I'm ford or
(28:21):
against it, but for some people, certain unions have a
season and after that that's it. But it is a
trauma because it's actually listed as one of the childhood
adverse events underneath.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Actually it's one of the highest ones. Right if your
parents got divorced, right, and so why.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Wouldn't it be if you were going through it?
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And so do you feel like you have reclaimed your joy.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
A hundred percent?
Speaker 6 (28:47):
I mean I used to be so busy that my
aunt Handonia was just like h But finding a way
to connect with people again, because that's my point of
joy is connection through socials, through communities, through just day
to day in my office with my family. That's real
joy from me. And I feel like before I was
(29:09):
chasing the values that were superficial and while tapping into
the ones that brought me purpose and meaning.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
You know, one of the things we talk a lot
about is emphasizing natural health solutions.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Right, and there are you know, healing.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Is holistic, so yes, there's the mental health support you need.
And then there are also things that actually exhibit because
or they mimic the symptoms because it can be vitamin
deficiencies or hormonal and balance right, and we find that
there are a lot of women who they're experiencing these
things they don't realize, well, you're actually D three deficient,
so deficient that you're feeling like this right, absolutely, it
(29:46):
actually could cause exacerbate, exacerbated perimenopause menopause symptoms. Mimicking them
actually and then taking it causes the stress to be
even worse in terms of the impact on your body.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Talk about that.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
I always check because in my lab we do blood work,
and so I always check for vitamin deficiencies because my
high functioning folks they're not eating properly. They're like shoving
the food, the process food, and they're getting their nutrients right,
They're too busy.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
They're not getting their own megas, they're not getting their
anti inflammatories.
Speaker 6 (30:16):
So I check the panels because a lot of them
are B deficient, vitamin D deficient, and you need these
things for your brain to be happy. I always say, like,
know the science of your happiness, right, your happiness is
different than mine, Your science is different than mine. And
in my book I talk about the bio psychosocial model. Biologically,
(30:37):
that person who's not getting the nutrients, they're going to
need some help.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
They're need some support.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
There, yes, but someone else may not write and then psychologically,
what is your trauma, what's your attachment style? Socially what
are the habits you're engaging in? So we all have
our own fingerprints, but we also all have our own
biopsychosocial So understand the science of your happiness. Learn what's
pulling away from your happiness, so you know how to
punished that.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's very interesting. You mentioned attachments. How when you go
back to the trauma piece, some people are dealing with
trauma because they never learned healthy attachments.
Speaker 6 (31:10):
They learned it, they never learned it, and they don't
even understand their attachment style.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
They think, Oh, I'm just not a relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Person, right, I'm just I'm just disconnected. No, you never
attached in the first place.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Right, man, Well, this book is amazing. How have people
received it from? Oh, we got it at the Van's Copies,
you got.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
Okay, it just came out yesterday, but was sold out.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
My launch party sold good, so good, I was the word.
Speaker 6 (31:40):
I was like, nobody's gonna come and I'm like, oh, wow,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Now, congratulations on that though well deserved. I have to
say I was fascinated while I was reading this taking quizzes.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I was a little ashamed. I was like, it might be.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
What is your hope for you know in this work?
What do you want to see it do?
Speaker 6 (32:01):
I want people to take the quiz and say, oh
my gosh, Anne Hondonia never knew what that was, and
now I can do something about it. A lack of
joy is a problem. You were again, everyone was born
with the DNA for joy it's your birthright.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
So reclaim it.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
And I want them to learn about ways that they
can do it in a fun way. It's a book
about high function of pressure, but I think it's really fun,
so I think people will be surprised.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
You can't.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
You can't talk about the pressure without talking about happiness,
so it has to put both in there.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I just think of certain circumstances because I definitely took
the quiz right and some things I got to work on.
But even like reading for joy. First of all, I
was an English major.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I love reading.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I read all the time this But but you talk
about how even for you something that you used to
find so much joy in, You know, going to school
and having to study will change that.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
It does. Yeah, exhausted love reading.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
It can exhaust you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Are you back on that now?
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 6 (32:57):
The book that made me realize how much I was
missing out and joy was Michelle Obama's Becoming. I can
talk about that and they are as like I was, like,
I forgot that I used to read for joy, and
after I read that book, I started reading again.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
One of the questions is do you find it difficult
to be present while experiencing simple pleasures. I think one
of the issues with that is that people are on
their phones all the time, and it's really hard for
people to focus at a function, at dinner with their
significant other, watching a movie, whatever it is, because they
just keep on picking up their phone to do certain
to just scroll and do those things when you can't
(33:31):
even like be present in the moment.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
That's part of the business, right, you can't sit still?
What do you do? You have to busy yourself on
your phone, so before you know.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
What, you're screws.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
So do you offer solutions some tips in terms of
things that people should do.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Well for the busying with the phone. I offer my
reset method, so you know. The R is realize how
socials or being online is impacting you, because many of
us don't even realize that. Is it getting a way
of your productivity? Is it making you less connected to
the people that you.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Love and are people right around you right? Are you
losing that opportunity?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (34:05):
Is it causing you to feel low confidence because you're
constantly looking at other people? The E is educate yourself
because there's data that shows that it impacts a young
brain differently than an adult brain. And it's emerging data,
but it's important to know that educate yourself. The S
and reset is strategy. What's your plan? Are you going
to limit it to certain times of the day? Are
(34:26):
you going to limit it to certain accounting going to follow?
Is everyone in the home going to be off of
the device? The next e is expectation? What are you
hoping to get out of this? Are you hoping to
feel better, connected, more productive, get more better sleep?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
You know?
Speaker 6 (34:40):
And then the T is the thoughtfulness in that whole process.
Was that plan that you put in place to rigid?
Was it to relax? What do you do differently? Everyone
could do the reset. I teach it to adults and
to children, but it's important to have a tool because
it's great to know that it's happening, but you want
to have actionable things to do about it.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Man, And it's a crazy time out here right now.
I do want say that too. That's the other thing
that I feel. And it's going to be interesting to
me to see what the impact from I'm sure COVID
has brought a whole different set of issues, even the
after effects of that, But now people are so concerned
about the I mean, I am people about the economy
and what's happening, you know, and like my family sends
(35:19):
out these links NonStop, like oh, these are the things
you need to stop pile and it's like sometimes gets
me some anxiety for thinking about like what am I
going to do?
Speaker 5 (35:30):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (35:31):
No, it's liking it to a wave. In my book,
it's like an ocean of trauma. It's like first the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
No, it is, absolutely, it's more like a tsunami.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
It's like we can't.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
Catch our breath. It's like wave the way we can't
process it. So acknowledge that and turn yourself off from that.
You know, you don't have to be have access to
that information.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
All all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
But tell my dad steps sending these links, man, because
I'm like, you know what I do.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
I mute the chat there as certain chats, I won't even.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Got a whole bunch of different chats. I got tatismate
just my immediate family testing my aunts. I'm like, enough
with the different tests.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Can we just do one One of the things I
wanted to say beyond nutrition there because I mentioned it
earlier around actually training your your sympathetic your parasympathetic nervous system.
So the sympathetic nervous system is your fight or flight, right,
it is.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
You're always on the go, right.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
And then there's a parasympathetic nervous system, which is really
your rest and your digest right, which helps you be
in a place of homeostasis, of healing, of balance. What
are some of the things that people can do to
just help themselves be in a place of balance throughout
the day, like neuroplasticity, plasticity exercises, mindfulness, breathwork.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Can we talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 6 (36:44):
Yeah, there's actually the five tour through two one method
in my book. Because what happens is that you're so
busy you're not attached to yourself. It's like disassociation or
you feel like you're not even in the situation, like
the day just goes by, right, And so it's a
grounding tool to alight stay present, and it's simple. Anyone
can do it. So you can pick one activity to do.
(37:04):
It could be you're drinking your tea or whatever beverage
you have, and you're going to stay present there by
saying what are five things.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
That I can see?
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Right?
Speaker 6 (37:13):
And you name the five things that you see. What
are the four things that I can feel. Right, what
are three things I can hear? What are two things
I can smell? One thing I can taste.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
And when you're doing that, you're not thinking if you're
doing all the senses and yeah, you're not thinking, oh,
I have a board meeting in ten minutes. You know,
you're not thinking, I got to like pick up the
kids after work. Right, you're so present and engage in
this one activity, and you're teaching yourself that you can
focus on you for just a couple of minutes. So
it's a retrain of your brain that things happen are
(37:43):
happening in the world, but you can still focus on
you and stay present. And it's in the book and
it's very simple.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
It's very simple.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
It's like we all need to make sure we get
this book.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yes, high functioning, overcoming you're hidden depression and reclaim your joy.
Thank you so much for joining us today. That did
with Joseph. This has been amazing. The forwards by mel Robbins.
By the way, he also hello, it's nice to see
they're two incredible.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Together in this So where.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Where can people support you?
Speaker 6 (38:10):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (38:10):
Thank you so much for having me both. It's so lovely.
Speaker 6 (38:13):
You can find me at doctor Judith Joseph on All
the Socials and doctor Judith Joseph dot Com.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yay, y'all all listen. I needed this.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I gotta work. I got work to do. It is
our resistance, right right.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
The first thing is to be aware of what's going on.
Let's get that together.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
And I love how we match the book. It's way
What's up its way up at Angela.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Ye, and y'all know by now my girl coach Jesse
is here with me the detox now, yes, ma'am, all right,
and you brought a friend with you, which I'm excited about.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
So April is Stress Awareness Month, and you know, one
of the things, as black women, we are always under
so much pressure trying to hold it down between work
and family, and a lot of times we don't realize
that we may be dealing with something that's not just
chronic stress, but it actually may be something that's deeper.
And what when I met you know, doctor Joseph, and
(00:40):
I learned about the work she's doing. I learned that,
you know what, there's something that we can be dealing
with that's beyond just kind of like being busy. There's
the pressure of like we're getting everything done, we are
the go to person. But still inside even though we
look like high achievers, hi, we're actually looking like we're functioning.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Also like it's normal and achieving. All these things say
it's busy, right to be exhausted.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Inside you're exhausted, but not just exhausted, you're joyless. You're
numb and anxious, and that is where we need to
look at are we actually dealing with high functioning depression.
So you know, doctor Judith is a researcher, a.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Psychiatrist, and an author.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Obviously her book is just releasing yay this week.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
Yay, So congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
And I was so excited to have her join us
to have this conversation because she's not just someone who
researched it, but she lived it.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Love for you to just share with us your.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Story, Yeah, thank you, Jesse. Coach Jesse, because what happens
is that people are comfortable saying I'm burnt out, you know,
I'm exhausted, but if you say I'm depressed, it's like crickets.
It makes people feel awkward. But the reality is that
many of us are actually walking around with high functioning depression,
wearing this mask of pathological productivity, being busy, being in
(02:02):
the rock, doing all these things. But we're struggling inside
with symptoms of depression and we're calling it something different.
So that's why the things that we think will help
us feel better don't and we're not getting better. So
we have to name it and identify it so then
we use tools that actually treat it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And this was something you identified within yourself tales yes,
and which is not an easy thing for us to
actually say to ourselves because as somebody who from childhood,
you've been such a high achiever with so many accomplishments.
But I saw also, I've seen you post the pictures
of yourself throughout the years and the things that we
(02:40):
see as accomplishments, but also the underlying issues that you
were having within yourself that you didn't even know.
Speaker 6 (02:47):
Yeah, I didn't even know. And I'm a board sort
of for a psychiatrist and researcher, and it snuck up
on me. Like I remember sitting at a desk teaching
this large hospital system in twenty twenty how to get
through uncertainty. They were like asking questions. It's like, yeah,
just like what's going to happen?
Speaker 5 (03:03):
What do I do?
Speaker 6 (03:04):
And halfway through that talk, I was like, wait a second,
I think I'm depressed. It like hit me and I
was like, and I have no joy. And that's something
called anne hedonia. It's a research term that a lot
of people have never heard of. But I'm trying to
change that. So, like you're doing so much, you are
the human doing You're not a human being, right, you're
showing up for others. You're so busy, and if you
(03:26):
sit still you feel restless. You know, if you're not working,
you feel empty. And when I started talking about this
to people, they're like, that's what it is. They just
didn't have a name for it. So it's important because
this can be an indicator that something is going on
that you need help. But if you go to your
doctor and you're like checking all these symptoms of depression,
(03:46):
but the last checkbox is empty because you are still functioning.
You're actually overfunctioning, they'll say, come back when you break down,
because we can't really do anything for you right now.
I'm trying to change that.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
So they're sending you away like everything's okay. But the
truth is you are depressed.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
Yeah, you have these symptoms, but in order to meet
criteria for depression, you have to check that final box
of you're no longer functioning or you're in distress. Well,
what about people who have to keep going and what
about people who don't have the word to describe what
they're going through. They're not being addressed because we're waiting
for you to break down, which is it sounds like counterintuitive,
(04:23):
like why would you wait for someone to break down?
But that's just the way the system is. But we're
seeing that there's a change with like cancer, Like people
aren't saying wait till you get to stage three cancers. Yeah,
they're saying, let's prevent the cancer. You know, we're seeing
it with heart disease. Let's not wait for the heart attack,
let's prevent it. Or even with a stocker.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Every can you can do anything until something happens, even
if you're really won't.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
So what's the actual if? For Layman's terms, how would
you define high functional depression?
Speaker 6 (04:51):
So you have these symptoms of depression, you can go
onto my website and you can take the test. There's
a high functioning test. It's free, and you go through
the symptoms of pression and you see if you have them.
And the hallmark is that a lot of us are overfunctioning.
So no matter what we do. One of the questions
on there is no matter what we do, we never
feel like it's enough.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
You keep going and.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
How many But that's so normalized at because it makes
you feel like if you don't feel that way, you're
not doing enough in a way. But then it's also
the absence, like you said, of joy and herdonia, because
you always keep pushing the bar like, Okay, I'll be happy.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
When this happens. I do that all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm like, I feel better when this happens or I
finally have a chance, But then there's always something else
after that that you're delaying it until you're delaying your
happiness until you reach something, but then there's always something
moving carrot right.
Speaker 6 (05:44):
I'm glad you brought that up, because that's exactly what
people say when they come to my office. They're like, doctor,
I just want to be happy. And when I ask them,
like what is happiness, they're like, oh, it's when I
get that job, or when I finally get a house,
when I pay off my debt. It's always this idea.
But in my research lab it's the opposite. When we
measure happiness, we're adding up points of joy. So the
(06:07):
questions we ask like the questions you'll see on my website,
like when you ate your food, did it taste good?
When you took a nap, did you feel rested?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Can you find joy in a moment these moments?
Speaker 6 (06:18):
And that's how we measure it. In science, we add
up the points and then overall that's what makes us
measure whether or not there's happiness. But in the real
world we're like, well, i'll be happy one. So it's
an idea versus joy as an experience, and we're missing
out on joy.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
We're leaving our points on the table.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I want to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Also in the book, you discuss how in order for
you to become a psychiatrist, you also had to see
one yes, right, and that wasn't easy for you. And
I think that's so interesting, right because I do feel
like right now, more than ever, people have been talking
about going to therapy and trying to make that feel
(06:57):
I've seen people say if he's not seeing a therapist,
I don't want to date why people are really saying that.
And so, what was a breakthrough moment for you? Because
I know people who are listening they need to know
that these are steps you had to go through. But
also do you feel this pressure to be perfect because
of who you are and what you do?
Speaker 6 (07:15):
Yeah, you know, I wasn't always going to be a psychiatrist.
I'm from a very traditional Caribbean home Christian home, and
when I went to medical school, I was the first
doctor in my family. So when I told my parents
I wanted to be an anti sosiologist, they were like, great,
and I'll just make a lot of money, you know,
like that's a real doctor, a doctor.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
But I was.
Speaker 6 (07:35):
I was miserable in that field and I was actually
going through a depression when I was in that field.
And so when I actually said I want to get
out of that, and my friend was a psychiatrist in
training at the time, she was like, this is great.
And I had done this rotation in South Africa where
I was helping little kids through their trauma and I
love that in medical school, so I was like, I
want to see if I could do that because that
was very fulfilling. A switched to psychiatry and they were saying,
(07:58):
you know, all the residents and training get free like
low cost to free therapy, so it's really cheap to
see some of the most expensive psychiatrists in the city.
So I just remember going to this very fancy office
on the Upper East Side and I was like, what
does this man know about me? Like, I'm from the Caribbean,
I didn't have money growing up. He didn't know me,
and there are all of his patients around him were
(08:19):
all rich and like very well dressed and stuff. But yeah,
like I didn't think I had mental health issues. I
was like, I'm just gonna do it because everyone else is,
but I'm not. I don't have any problems. And boy
was I wrong. Boy, there was so much trauma that
was unpacked, like growing up with very little. I had
no idea that the reason I pushed myself to, you know,
(08:40):
get good grades and like constantly working overfunctioning was because
I never wanted to be in a position of lacking again.
So that scarcity trauma was something that pushed me to
be high functioning. And I talk about that in the
book as well.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I love that you brought up trauma because you know
that does you talked about it plays a major role.
How much of a role does process trauma, you know,
play in high function depression.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Well, I know you're an expert in that mind body connection, right,
that fight or flight. That's the busyness, right, some of
us we can't sit still. And it's different from burnout
because with burnout, you know, it's the work plash, Well,
it's the workplace that's causing it. By definition, burnout is
an occupational hazard. But for us high functioning, functioning people,
(09:25):
when you leave the workplace, we're not just working. We're like,
we're helping somebody else with their problems. We're helping our
kids doing a project. I got a bazillion projects going
on because we can't sit still. And I don't think
people realize that's related to unprocessed trauma.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
We're constantly driving it about when you look at the trauma,
what is actually driving the way that you're not stopping.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
That's the piece it is. It's the avoidance. That's how
we avoid.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
It's interesting because even now I feel like that's definitely me.
People tell me all the time, you can't say still
just do like, but I made a commitment to myself,
like I have a lot of things that were in
the practice of getting done, and I was like, you know,
as in the second half of this year, I'm going
to just take it easy. I'm not trying to like
put more on my plate until I can handle what
I have on my plate now, just because I feel
(10:15):
like I just give myself so much to.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Do that I'm like, yeah, why do I that self?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Love?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
But you know, I might be pushing the bar and
then because I'm like, you know, you never know, like
things happen, but I really have made that commitment because
the other thing that's hard, like you said, is you
want to show up for everybody, and it's hard to
say no sometimes, but you need to, well.
Speaker 6 (10:38):
Angela, one of the symptoms of trauma, unprocessed trauma is
internalizing blame and guilt. So us high functioning folks like
if we don't show up for others, we feel guilty.
We're like or we call ourselves lazy. You know, it's ridiculous.
We're doing so much, but we internalize it.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
It's the message we're getting, we're saying to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
It is it's how.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
We tie our worth to our role. But we were
someone before our role. We just have to work ourselves back.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I wonder if we could touch a little bit on how,
you know, Infertility Awareness Week is coming up and how
women who actually are dealing with infertility and I'm wearing
orange in honor of you all because I was one
dealt with it for ten years and that is a
traumatic thing, right and can push you into high function depression.
Speaker 6 (11:27):
Would you say absolutely? You know, in PTSD research, post
traumatic stress to sort of research, the traumas that are
really identified as being the key traumas are not things
like that. And so when I do my research and
people come in and they're like, I've had you know,
so many miscarriage carriages that cow and I'm like, I
believe you, but according to this box, I can't say yes,
(11:49):
And that's so invalidating. So that's why I created these
like frequizes on our website where you can put in
these type of traumas, and that is definitely one of them.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Those you're trail actually voice and an opportunity for people
to to examine and process what they're going through in
light of this.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
Yeah, because a trauma is something that shapes the way
that you view yourself in the world and the way
that you interact with the world, something that's painful, and
it doesn't have to be this big assault. It could
be something like, yeah, it's true, multiple miscarriagters, right.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
I mean that's huge.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And doctor Joseph As, you are the first person to
really dig and do this research on high functioning depression.
How have other people received it in the medical world?
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (12:36):
How much time do you have them?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I'm just curious because being the first person being a
black woman, which and being the person that and you
have a book out about it, and you've really done
the research. How are other people because sometimes other people
cannot be accepting of things that maybe they don't even understand.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
Well. Initially the feedback was that's not a real thing.
You know.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
Wait, there are still functioning, which again I think is
a broken model. Right, we have to help people before
they stop functioning. Initially they said that, But then I
teach at NYU.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I teach medical doctors, okay, and yuse my mom oh.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
I teach some of the young doctors how to create
content to educate the public about mental health issues. And
so one of the things they asked me was can
you help us create social content because I already taught
them like you know, TV, press radio. So I said,
let me do a little test. I'll do a video
on high functioning depression a day in the life, and
we'll see how it does. I thought maybe one hundred
(13:34):
people will watch it. It was seen over twenty million
times around the world.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
So I was on that resonated Yes, and what we're
saying is.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
A lot right, people like, how do you have a
camera in my home? How do you know what my
day listening?
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Wow, So that got the attention of the same people
who were like, it's not a thing. They were like,
I think it's a thing.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
I'm like.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
That though, because you you saw it, you gave it voice,
you put it out there, even though people were trying
to tell you wasn't even valid.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Kudos to you.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
That's fantastic. And even doing social media. That was something
that also might be like in the in the medical world,
like what is this. This is not the normal traditional
way that we do things.
Speaker 6 (14:15):
It's not And initially people were like, oh, what are
you trying to be an actor? And I'm like, I
grew up in a church where my dad, who's a pastor,
put us on stage three times a week.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Whether we wanted to or not.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
We had to act on Bible skits, we had to say,
we have to do everything. So it just came naturally
to me. People understand when you explain things in an
entertaining waytely, it's not rocket science.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Don't make it rocket science.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Now.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Another thing that you did was you traveled in broad
to see how different cultures also approach mental health.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
What are some things you learned from that? Because that's
fascinating to me.
Speaker 6 (14:51):
It is fascinating. You know, a lot of the terms
like narcissism, you know, like we think it's gas lighting. Yeah,
gas I think it's just an our culture on the
side of the world. But when you go to places
like India and you see a guru talking about the
ego and putting your ego aside, that's what he's saying,
don't be a narcissist, right, So mental health is everywhere
in the Caribbean. You know, like when my parents found
(15:14):
out it was going to be a psychiatrist, are like, way,
hanging out with a.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Crazy people.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
Sounds right, But now they're so open to My dad
is like, let's do mental health, like.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
You know the church and I'm like, what pastor.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
But yeah, in the Caribbean, a lot of times I
do outreach within the Caribbean American community. I'm Trinidadian, so
I say, you know, mental health is ours. We're just
calling it something different. Like you know, when you eat
a curry and your ROTI those you know spices in
there that is anti inflammatory. That's like, actually, yes, helping
your brain. Okay, you're moving in your wine inside to side.
(15:55):
That's bilateral stimulation.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Okay, we got all right, Carnival coach Jesse.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Now all right.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Now, another thing that you also discussed, and I think
this is important is venting.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
The importance in venting, but the right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Can we talk about that here, because I think this
is something that a lot of people need to understand,
including myself absolutely.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
You know, venting is when you express emotions and sometimes
we trauma dump. We don't that like, we don't we
don't ask consent, we don't say, hey, you know, is
it okay? If I talk to you, we're just like right,
and so we're not checking in to see how the
other person feels it's good. And when you're venting without intention,
you're not there for a specific goal. Like when you
(16:45):
vent pick one or two people. Talk to someone you
know is going to give you feedback that's honest and
not just what you want to hear. Right, and think
about who you're venting to, like are you venting to
an employee? Are you venting to a child? You know,
think about that power dynamic. Yes, because they're not going
to say no. If you're the boss, they're gonna be like,
all right, boss. And then they're gonna talk about you
(17:05):
behind their back or vent at home to someone else.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Right, are there scenarios where the venting cannot because you know,
one of the things we look at is there's times
where you really just need to feel the feelings. Yes, right,
and it's not time to give feedback yet. It's really
just time to don't like vent, right, because I deal
with this with my daughter. She's thirteen and she has
(17:28):
a lot, which is good because it's healthy that she
actually is sharing what's going on, and I typically I
want to, well, is that give her feedback I'm learning now?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
It's like, no, you just got.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
To let her first of all, let her process it
and then really do the list and then maybe come
back a little afterwards or asked, do you want to
hear about that?
Speaker 6 (17:48):
No, When with teens especially, you want to do active listening.
You want them to tell you how they feel, but
then don't try to solve the problems. You know, like
imagine your hands being like you're sitting on your hands,
sit on my head, don't do any thing.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Just listen.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
But what's also helpful with teenagers is to have them
self vent first, so they write their feelings into a journal,
and then they talk about how they feel, and then
they cool off a bit, and then they come to
the person. Because a teen's brain is way more impulsive
than our brain, so they're gonna be like, you know,
self done and you know, and then connect.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
One of the things you said earlier was, you know,
mental health is ours.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Everybody's right. Why it's been found.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I think you've talked about how people of color are
more vulnerable, caregivers are more vulnerable. There are populations that
are more vulnerable, and why is that.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
Well, the caregiving is big. In my study, the first
study ever published in a par review journal for high
function depression, we found a high correlation between that and caregivers.
They're constantly giving, they're constantly thinking about someone else. They
don't have time to break down, right, That's why they're
at risk for wearing that mask of productivity, because they
can't show how they feel. So definitely they are at risk.
(18:59):
But I say mental health is ours because we're all
built with the DNA for joy.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Yeah, we all.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
Have dopemine in our brains. We just we forget how
to access it. And that's why I came up with
that method. The five v's because when you think about
your hand, right, most of us have five fingers, right,
But if you can tap into one of those v's
a day, you can reclaim your joy.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
It's our birthright to be joyful.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
Yes, So the first V validation VALIDATIONWAD acknowledge how you
feel and accept it good or bad. You know, I'd
liken it to being in like a dark room and
if something fell or something made a big noise, you
wouldn't know what it was. You start swinging, you didn't know,
But if you turn the light on, you see, oh,
it's just something that you know fell. It's not going
(19:42):
to hurt me. That's how acknowledging your feelings is. By
acknowledging and knowing how you feel, you're decreasing the uncertainty
and you're more at ease.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
You're increasing the safety, right because when there's uncertainty, you're
feeling that fight or flight. So it's I'll let you
continue that because I want to get into the nervous system.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
But that's obviously right when you know what you're dealing with,
That itself is a therapeutic intervention because you know it
now so you know what to do next.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
And the second V is venting.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
That's the expressing fee.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
For some people that don't like to talk, that's okay.
Pray crying is a good way to journaling.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
Like you said, journaling, just get it out right. And
the third is values. What are the things in life
that are priceless, not with price tags, you know? For me,
I used to chase the degrees and this and the accolades,
but what really gives me a sense of purpose and
meaningless connection. So be real about what your values are.
And I list them all in the book as well.
(20:40):
And then the fourth is vitals. Take care of your
body and brain because you only get one and you're
here for a reason. There's only one Jesse, only one Angela,
only one Judith ever to exist and in the future
of the universe, so take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Jesse likes that I've been preaching that, yes, you know.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
So for envision, when we tevision.
Speaker 6 (21:00):
Vision is how do you plan join the future so
you don't get stuck in the past, you keep moving forward.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
So I've heard a therapist was talking about how people
who can think about the future, plan for the future
are less to have a psychotic episode.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Having something to look forward to. We all need hope.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
That's my goal. That's what I do.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I do give myself things to look forward to, even
if it's like Christmas, I'm going away.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
It's something I think about every day.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
And that's that's a big one right now. It doesn't
have to be a big like after I finished with
you all, I'm gonna have a really nice macho latte.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
I'm looking forward to that. You know, it's little.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Things that you can control.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Schedule a massage for next week, and it's like, but
it is things that you're like, all right, at least
I'm gonna get this massage next week.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Isn't feel so good. I need it in my back.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
But you're right, And those are the things I do
feel like. That's something that I have. Like Dan is
the way he just my producer got married. I'm like
when he I'm taking a day. So those are the things.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Now. Another thing that now, there's certain.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Jobs, and you talk about there's certain professions that actually
will make you more prone to high functioning depression.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Like the caregier thing, right.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so can we talk about that because even for
you when you were anesthesiologist, that affected you so much
that you would like time to make a switch. How
do people know when it's okay? How can I work
on this? Or maybe I just can't even do this
at all anymore.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Maybe it's toxic for me, Maybe it's really dangerous for me.
Speaker 6 (22:30):
Right, And that member burnout is tied to the occupation.
Sometimes it's the case of both, right, a job burning
you out, and you also have that internal restlessness that
no matter what job you're in, you're going to be overproducing. Right,
So it can be both. But there are certain you know,
industries that are prone for this entertainment, you have to
always be on. You can't like who wants to hire you.
(22:51):
You're not going to get the gig if you're sad, right, Right,
So you're constantly in productive mode, right. Healthcare you're taking
care of page. You're not looking after yourself. Sometimes I
talk to nurses. They haven't peed all day?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Right, right, Wow, haven't had any water done?
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Nothing?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Like teachers, Yes, teacher, man, that's such a tough job
that I feel like they don't get the rewards that
they deserve.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
They don't.
Speaker 6 (23:19):
They're invalidated all the time. And entrepreneurs right constantly thinking
about whether or not they're going to fail. That fair
of failure keeps them busy even when they're not at work.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, frontline workers, it's like you don't get to have
your own life. No. Right, when we look back at
the pandemic, it was like even though everybody was going
through something, they still had to show up for everybody.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
They do, they do. They are constantly thinking about others.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Can I ask you about something else that I've seen too?
Attack to Joseph, I want to talk about people who
are always a victim no matter what the situation is,
because there are people that actually, no matter what happens,
they'll find a way to make it seem like they
were wronged somehow in a situation, or this happened to
me and that's why this is the situation, instead of saying, well,
(24:09):
maybe I could have done something differently, or perhaps I
played a role in this.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I know a few people who are kind of
like that.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
They're always like complaining about venting about how somebody did
this to them and that's why this happened.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
How would that be categorized? Yeah, it's so different from
what the high functioning folks do. We blame ourselves, like,
oh I wish I had done something differently or I
wouldn't be like this. But other people who have a
hard time with accountability that could be for different reasons.
They may have been raised in a household where they
were praised and they were like the favorite.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
Chalivated, right, yeah, and the other.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
Kids were the bad ones. And so if you're not
taught along the way to have that empathy and to
be able to see someone else's perspective, then you're always right.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
You're the self awareness right, because you're not taught to
look and reflect on yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
If you know somebody, you're close to, somebody who you like,
I feel like nah, hearing dad to Joseph speak, that
person might have high functioning depression, but they're not really
willing to listen or accept that. How do you deal
with that? Like, how do you get somebody to open
up their minds help?
Speaker 6 (25:15):
Know that this person does not want to burden you,
so they're not going to acknowledge that they need help.
But that's okay. You know, you want to show them
that they don't have to be performing or doing to
gain your acceptance and love. So you can tell them,
you know, I don't we don't have to do nothing.
You don't have to cook, you have to take me out.
I will be happy just sitting with you because I'm
here just for you.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
And you know, on the surface level their brain they
may not be able to take that in, but over time,
on a deeper level, it'll sink in.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I think I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
It's like it's starting to give them a safe place, right,
creating a safe place without them feeling like you're asking
them to do anything and you don't need anything from them, right,
So literally just being with them where they are.
Speaker 6 (25:57):
Yeah, and also realizing that this is a trauma. Responts
likely that after a trauma. We told children and adults
number one, it is not your fault. So know that
they're likely thinking, well, they must have done something in
life to be this way, right, So make sure that
they know it's not their fault, that you're there for
them no matter what.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Right.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
And when they see that, they can let down their guards,
they can slow down, they can just be They don't
have to be busy all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
One thing you also referenced a few times in the
book was getting divorced and how hard that was. What
were some of the things that you did to be
able to accept that and and keep it moving.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
Well, divorce is one of the traumas I put in
the Trauma Inventory.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
You won't it's found in the regular you won't find
it in the record.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But it is.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
Hard, you know, especially if kids and their financial issues involved.
So I put that in there for a reason because
it's one of those tap boots people won't talk about.
For me, as someone who had to be like perfect
all the time, it was very diffult for me to
talk about. And I think I talk about in the
book about how I didn't even tell my therapist about it,
and she's like.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
What, she had no idea.
Speaker 6 (27:09):
But it's important because it's something that a lot of
people busy themselves to distract from. And I've seen it
in my patients. When I go to these talking agents,
people say it too. It's one of those traumas that
does that to you, so acknowledge it.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah, it's like somehow you're trying to convince yourself that
it's not because something was wrong with you.
Speaker 6 (27:28):
Well, or that you the opposite, like you think you
must have done something.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Right that I'm saying I must have done.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, the people down because my mom she's Caribbean.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Oh yeah, and my grandparents are super religious, and so
for them it was like divorces and no, no, like
you absolutely cannot.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You have to figure it out.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
I'm not even thinking what that could.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
It could cause more damage staying in a relationship, definitely, because.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Sometimes it feels like society looks at it like you
gave up if you get divorced instead of saying I
want happiness.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Divorce content is some of the busiest. Look at the
the comments is like a full on brawl. I did
this one video on generations like looking at how boomers,
maget X, millennials, and gen Z approach divorce. That is
one of my most viral videos because people have very
strong opinions about divorce. I'm not saying I'm ford or
(28:21):
against it, but for some people, certain unions have a
season and after that that's it. But it is a
trauma because it's actually listed as one of the childhood
adverse events underneath.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Actually it's one of the highest ones. Right if your
parents got divorced, right, and so why.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Wouldn't it be if you were going through it?
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And so do you feel like you have reclaimed your joy.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
A hundred percent?
Speaker 6 (28:47):
I mean I used to be so busy that my
aunt Handonia was just like h But finding a way
to connect with people again, because that's my point of
joy is connection through socials, through communities, through just day
to day in my office with my family. That's real
joy from me. And I feel like before I was
(29:09):
chasing the values that were superficial and while tapping into
the ones that brought me purpose and meaning.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
You know, one of the things we talk a lot
about is emphasizing natural health solutions.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Right, and there are you know, healing.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Is holistic, so yes, there's the mental health support you need.
And then there are also things that actually exhibit because
or they mimic the symptoms because it can be vitamin
deficiencies or hormonal and balance right, and we find that
there are a lot of women who they're experiencing these
things they don't realize, well, you're actually D three deficient,
so deficient that you're feeling like this right, absolutely, it
(29:46):
actually could cause exacerbate, exacerbated perimenopause menopause symptoms. Mimicking them
actually and then taking it causes the stress to be
even worse in terms of the impact on your body.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Talk about that.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
I always check because in my lab we do blood work,
and so I always check for vitamin deficiencies because my
high functioning folks they're not eating properly. They're like shoving
the food, the process food, and they're getting their nutrients right,
They're too busy.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
They're not getting their own megas, they're not getting their
anti inflammatories.
Speaker 6 (30:16):
So I check the panels because a lot of them
are B deficient, vitamin D deficient, and you need these
things for your brain to be happy. I always say, like,
know the science of your happiness, right, your happiness is
different than mine, Your science is different than mine. And
in my book I talk about the bio psychosocial model. Biologically,
(30:37):
that person who's not getting the nutrients, they're going to
need some help.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
They're need some support.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
There, yes, but someone else may not write and then psychologically,
what is your trauma, what's your attachment style? Socially what
are the habits you're engaging in? So we all have
our own fingerprints, but we also all have our own
biopsychosocial So understand the science of your happiness. Learn what's
pulling away from your happiness, so you know how to
punished that.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's very interesting. You mentioned attachments. How when you go
back to the trauma piece, some people are dealing with
trauma because they never learned healthy attachments.
Speaker 6 (31:10):
They learned it, they never learned it, and they don't
even understand their attachment style.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
They think, Oh, I'm just not a relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Person, right, I'm just I'm just disconnected. No, you never
attached in the first place.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Right, man, Well, this book is amazing. How have people
received it from? Oh, we got it at the Van's Copies,
you got.
Speaker 5 (31:33):
Okay, it just came out yesterday, but was sold out.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
My launch party sold good, so good, I was the word.
Speaker 6 (31:40):
I was like, nobody's gonna come and I'm like, oh, wow,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Now, congratulations on that though well deserved. I have to
say I was fascinated while I was reading this taking quizzes.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I was a little ashamed. I was like, it might be.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
What is your hope for you know in this work?
What do you want to see it do?
Speaker 6 (32:01):
I want people to take the quiz and say, oh
my gosh, Anne Hondonia never knew what that was, and
now I can do something about it. A lack of
joy is a problem. You were again, everyone was born
with the DNA for joy it's your birthright.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
So reclaim it.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
And I want them to learn about ways that they
can do it in a fun way. It's a book
about high function of pressure, but I think it's really fun,
so I think people will be surprised.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
You can't.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
You can't talk about the pressure without talking about happiness,
so it has to put both in there.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I just think of certain circumstances because I definitely took
the quiz right and some things I got to work on.
But even like reading for joy. First of all, I
was an English major.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I love reading.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I read all the time this But but you talk
about how even for you something that you used to
find so much joy in, You know, going to school
and having to study will change that.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
It does. Yeah, exhausted love reading.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
It can exhaust you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Are you back on that now?
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 6 (32:57):
The book that made me realize how much I was
missing out and joy was Michelle Obama's Becoming. I can
talk about that and they are as like I was, like,
I forgot that I used to read for joy, and
after I read that book, I started reading again.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
One of the questions is do you find it difficult
to be present while experiencing simple pleasures. I think one
of the issues with that is that people are on
their phones all the time, and it's really hard for
people to focus at a function, at dinner with their
significant other, watching a movie, whatever it is, because they
just keep on picking up their phone to do certain
to just scroll and do those things when you can't
(33:31):
even like be present in the moment.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
That's part of the business, right, you can't sit still?
What do you do? You have to busy yourself on
your phone, so before you know.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
What, you're screws.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
So do you offer solutions some tips in terms of
things that people should do.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Well for the busying with the phone. I offer my
reset method, so you know. The R is realize how
socials or being online is impacting you, because many of
us don't even realize that. Is it getting a way
of your productivity? Is it making you less connected to
the people that you.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Love and are people right around you right? Are you
losing that opportunity?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (34:05):
Is it causing you to feel low confidence because you're
constantly looking at other people? The E is educate yourself
because there's data that shows that it impacts a young
brain differently than an adult brain. And it's emerging data,
but it's important to know that educate yourself. The S
and reset is strategy. What's your plan? Are you going
to limit it to certain times of the day? Are
(34:26):
you going to limit it to certain accounting going to follow?
Is everyone in the home going to be off of
the device? The next e is expectation? What are you
hoping to get out of this? Are you hoping to
feel better, connected, more productive, get more better sleep?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
You know?
Speaker 6 (34:40):
And then the T is the thoughtfulness in that whole process.
Was that plan that you put in place to rigid?
Was it to relax? What do you do differently? Everyone
could do the reset. I teach it to adults and
to children, but it's important to have a tool because
it's great to know that it's happening, but you want
to have actionable things to do about it.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Man, And it's a crazy time out here right now.
I do want say that too. That's the other thing
that I feel. And it's going to be interesting to
me to see what the impact from I'm sure COVID
has brought a whole different set of issues, even the
after effects of that, But now people are so concerned
about the I mean, I am people about the economy
and what's happening, you know, and like my family sends
(35:19):
out these links NonStop, like oh, these are the things
you need to stop pile and it's like sometimes gets
me some anxiety for thinking about like what am I
going to do?
Speaker 5 (35:30):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (35:31):
No, it's liking it to a wave. In my book,
it's like an ocean of trauma. It's like first the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
No, it is, absolutely, it's more like a tsunami.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
It's like we can't.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
Catch our breath. It's like wave the way we can't
process it. So acknowledge that and turn yourself off from that.
You know, you don't have to be have access to
that information.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
All all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
But tell my dad steps sending these links, man, because
I'm like, you know what I do.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
I mute the chat there as certain chats, I won't even.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Got a whole bunch of different chats. I got tatismate
just my immediate family testing my aunts. I'm like, enough
with the different tests.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Can we just do one One of the things I
wanted to say beyond nutrition there because I mentioned it
earlier around actually training your your sympathetic your parasympathetic nervous system.
So the sympathetic nervous system is your fight or flight, right,
it is.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
You're always on the go, right.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
And then there's a parasympathetic nervous system, which is really
your rest and your digest right, which helps you be
in a place of homeostasis, of healing, of balance. What
are some of the things that people can do to
just help themselves be in a place of balance throughout
the day, like neuroplasticity, plasticity exercises, mindfulness, breathwork.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Can we talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 6 (36:44):
Yeah, there's actually the five tour through two one method
in my book. Because what happens is that you're so
busy you're not attached to yourself. It's like disassociation or
you feel like you're not even in the situation, like
the day just goes by, right, And so it's a
grounding tool to alight stay present, and it's simple. Anyone
can do it. So you can pick one activity to do.
(37:04):
It could be you're drinking your tea or whatever beverage
you have, and you're going to stay present there by
saying what are five things.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
That I can see?
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Right?
Speaker 6 (37:13):
And you name the five things that you see. What
are the four things that I can feel. Right, what
are three things I can hear? What are two things
I can smell? One thing I can taste.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
And when you're doing that, you're not thinking if you're
doing all the senses and yeah, you're not thinking, oh,
I have a board meeting in ten minutes. You know,
you're not thinking, I got to like pick up the
kids after work. Right, you're so present and engage in
this one activity, and you're teaching yourself that you can
focus on you for just a couple of minutes. So
it's a retrain of your brain that things happen are
(37:43):
happening in the world, but you can still focus on
you and stay present. And it's in the book and
it's very simple.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
It's very simple.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
It's like we all need to make sure we get
this book.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yes, high functioning, overcoming you're hidden depression and reclaim your joy.
Thank you so much for joining us today. That did
with Joseph. This has been amazing. The forwards by mel Robbins.
By the way, he also hello, it's nice to see
they're two incredible.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Together in this So where.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Where can people support you?
Speaker 6 (38:10):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (38:10):
Thank you so much for having me both. It's so lovely.
Speaker 6 (38:13):
You can find me at doctor Judith Joseph on All
the Socials and doctor Judith Joseph dot Com.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yay, y'all all listen. I needed this.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I gotta work. I got work to do. It is
our resistance, right right.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
The first thing is to be aware of what's going on.
Let's get that together.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
And I love how we match the book. It's way
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