August 23, 2025 • 50 mins
Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Jourdan Rodrigue and Cody Alexander tell you what opinions have changed heading into the new season. The trio talks about the Commanders defense (03:25) and offense (09:15), the Bills defense (12:10), the 49ers defense (16:30) and more. Plus, a deep dive into the evolution NFL defenses across the league (21:19) and their favorite defense to watch (28:00).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to NFL Daily, where we don't know anything about
the SABAN cover seven man match defense.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
But our guest does.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I'm Greg Rosenthal, and I'm here with Jordan Rodrieg and
I'm in the Chris Westling podcast studio, and I'm with
one of Jordan's friends and one of the biggest ball
knowers in the business, Cody Alexander, who runs match quarters
on the Substack. And yes, that was like one of
your recent posts was about the SABAN cover seven man
(00:35):
match defense and we're going to break that down on
this show for one hundred and fifty minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Let's it might take a little longer.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, Okay, we're not gonna do that actually, because you know,
I wouldn't know.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
What you listeners do not turn off the show.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, and Cody also hosts the Let's Talk Ball podcast,
but everyone check him out on substack where he has
built up a big following top ten in sports on substack,
and he's been building this up for almost a decade
getting into the nitty gritty of defensive play.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So what we're gonna do on this show.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
First, we want to talk a little bit like big
picture about anything we've seen over the last month just
quickly go around and talk about anything we feel differently about.
And I'm sure for you, Cody, it'll be maybe on
the defensive side of the ball, but just some rapid
fire what we feel differently about after watching some preseason
and everything. But then I think we're going to get
into a bigger picture conversation about what's next with defense
(01:32):
and Cody, it sounds like you're the type of guy
that people like Jordan and maybe coaches and just fans
who want to know more, they go to you to
like understand how defenses are actually run. So instead of
being the guy behind the scenes, we wanted to have
you on the show behind the curtain if you're instead
(01:54):
of like stealing your information like Jordan normally does, we're
going to have you here and you can just give
it so.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Much appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah, we're excited to have you, Cody. Obviously, you've taught
me a lot about defense over the years. You've taught
a lot of people a lot about defense over the years,
And I think what's nice is we're highlighting defense today.
Most of the time, everybody fireflies toward offense. Cody, I
know you have a lot of experience with that, you
explained defense to people who need to know how defenses
affect offense.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, the thing about defense is that it's not just
tackle somebody, right or cover somebody. You know, there's a
lot to it and it's really just an orchestration and
a lot of because it's reactionary in where the offense
is always producing something, the defense has to react to
it and it's setting you up for success. So it's
(02:40):
much more complicated than just tackle somebody.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
But you dumb it down for me and I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's amazing and Cody's a great example.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
We were talking before the show of you know, you
were a coach and a teacher and eventually after doing
this already for six years, you were able to turn
it into your full time job. And it's just defense
on the substance, there is no offense. Occasionally, people they'll
try to get in the comments talk about it. People
kick them off the site. I'm making that part up,
(03:11):
but there's a lot of pressure on us. I found
out as we were talking that Cody flew out in
part for this show, which Jordan bad job by you
not telling me that, I mean, that's that's too much responsibility.
So we got to make it count. Everyone go check
out match quarters. And why don't we start with you, Cody,
something that you have noticed, whether it's a scheme because
(03:32):
I don't know where you're going with this, or a
player or something that you've noticed over the last month,
maybe you kind of feel a little differently about.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
That you've learned over the last month.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I look at there's so much hype around the Washington
Commander and a lot of it focuses on the offensive side,
but I have a big pause on the defensive side,
and just the track record of that staff just in
general of now we're looking at this. This defensive line
(04:02):
is a little bit scary to me heading into the season,
and you look at it with you know, their big
pickup was Kinlaw in the off season. He doesn't really
want to have much to do with the run game. Okay,
so there's a pattern here, right. We have Von Miller
and Bobby Wagner that are both like, I mean, they're
they're pushing, you know, late thirties, right, Like, are we
(04:23):
really relying on this for a whole year? This is
a game of attrition. And then you know, Will Harris
had one good year right from the Saints, they get Latimore.
Latimore's never finished the season, So you start really looking
at this, It's like, why is Farrell Armstrong, where's the
pass rush coming from? Where's the run stopping ability? You
can't have Bobby Wagner having two hundred tackles, right, Frankie
Louvu's great, But you start looking at all these pieces
(04:44):
and it's a little scary heading into the season.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And do you think they could make up schematically maybe
what they lack in just beef because it's a surprising
way to attack their offseason after you know, getting blown
out by the I know that was amazing that they
got into that game, but that's a team you're going
to obviously have to face twice every season.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Schematically, they don't know. There's not a lot of answers
from it. I mean, this is a defense that wants
to play man coverage primarily. They if you even go
back to Dallas days, I mean, Dallas's problem right now
fitting to run has a lot to do with the
way that they developed that the dan Quinn's system there,
and he's trying to mirror that there, and I just
don't know. When you start really looking at it. You know,
(05:26):
at a player by player level, is this going to
work or are they going to have the same problems,
like are you going to essentially have to score thirty
five points a game in order to win some of
these games? And I don't know if that's necessarily sustainable.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
And they paid Johnny Newton, first of all, is getting
some pop in training camp, and he was injured last year,
and obviously they really hope that he takes a step
forward in order to actually shore up that interior defensive line.
At the same time, they paid Javon Kinlaw more money
than a lot of us expected him to get, and
there was familiarity with Adam Peters, who obviously knew kin
Law very well back when he was in San Francisco.
(06:01):
But to your point, you can't expect Bobby Wagner to
just have to hold the line against the run. And
he's still a great run defender, still one of the
hardest hitters, best tacklers in football. But you also watched
the way that they deployed Frankie Louvau a lot last year.
It was almost like, where's our emergency? Is it pressure
or is it coverage or is it run? Start helping
and run support, like he had to play so many positions.
(06:24):
He was great at him one of our favorite players
on NFL Daily. But I guess I would say all
the optimism and that came out about the way that
they were starting to try to reinforce this defense. I
feel a little bit worried about them heading into this season.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
This was I feel like we hadn't done enough Commander's
talk on this show and then this was a big
week for it because they made it into our most
interesting offenses and this is our defensive talk. And when
I used to do fantasy football, we I used to say, like, oh,
that's an everybody in the pool game because their defense
ain't isn't very good, but their offense is amazing, And
I feel like this could be there could be a
lot of like everybody in the pool for Fantasy Days
(07:05):
and Commanders game because because games got are going to
be in the thirties. While I'm thinking fantasy, I'll just
throw out a quick one Baseiel Tuton. Weirdly, I hadn't
got a chance to watch his tape until after we
did the recap show last Sunday. Fourth round pick for
the Jaguars at running back. I feel differently just about him.
I thought his tape in the preseason like looks different
(07:26):
and better than it looked in college. And his ability
to cut while moving forward with the power and aggression
that he has is something, and like that would be
the one guy. And we had the Fantasy show earlier
in the week that I would just make sure you
have him in every league because I think they will
find a way to get him on the field, because
I think he's their best running back. Probably right now,
(07:47):
I think he's probably it makes more sense. Maybe Tank
Biggsy Bigsby is the guy that gets traded. There's been
some whispers that someone gets traded there. Maybe Bigsby goes
etn Stays is a nice compliment. And sometimes you find
these running backs in the second day, the second third
day of the draft and they come into the league
and they're immediately like top twelve to fifteen runners. I
don't know if that's I'm not, but I think more
(08:07):
than any other position, you can see that in the
preseason he looks freaking amazing. Yeah, I feel different.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
He runs hard, his success rate is leading. It's a preseason.
I don't want to get crazy about success rate. Just yet,
but a success rate is leading other running backs in
the NFL in terms of per play. And I actually
kind of have a fun basial Tutin story because James Gladstone,
the GM for the Jaguars man, he really pissed off
his old boss and mentor less sneed because that was
(08:32):
a player the Rams had very very high on their
draft board, and James Gladstone also had him very very
high on their draft board. Liam Cohen was concerned at
the start of camp about how many times Basil Tutin
had put the ball on the ground aka fumbled the
ball in practice. But he seems to have been cleaning
that up in a big way. And if he can
(08:52):
keep it clean, he's going to be their lead one
of their lead players in no time. And I think
he's just a really great fit for what they want
to do with their run game.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, he had a major fumbling problem in college. Yeah,
that will get you benched.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So that was like a big, a big reason why
he fell in the draft after you know, the forty
time that he put up. But I don't know, you
can just see it. The way he moves is rare. Jordan,
give us one thing that you feel differently about.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
I have another commander's one. Oh, actually it's about Deebo Samuel.
I kind of really really felt bad for this guy
at the start of training camp because it didn't think
like seemed like optically anything could go right for him. Obviously,
he was getting a lot of memes made out of
him and a lot of really unfair I think criticism.
People were making a thing out of the size he looked,
(09:40):
at least when they opened training camp, and then the
Terry McLaurin situation is sort of lurking in the distance
of that entire offense. In general, I was not one
of the body shamers, but I did also still wonder
how Debo would fit into this offense. So now I
feel differently about that. And part of it was I
got to go up to Commander's camp and see everything
(10:00):
he's doing in that offense. He has clicked with Jade
and Daniels, and he is doing like literally a little
bit of everything in that passing game, including deep down
the field, including the intermedia and long range. Where he
looks smooth, he looks light on his feet, he looks fresh,
he has speed, and Jade and Daniels hit him on
a couple of deep throws down the field. They seem
(10:21):
to be really building that chemistry if they can just
get Terry McLaurin back. I feel a lot better about
what Deebo's fit and roll actually is in this defense.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Cody, Yeah, to me, I think, actually, no, you're not
allowed to talk about offense in this I even.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Said defense as I was looking at Cody. Oh my god,
it's like Pavlovian at this time. But I feel a
lot better about what Deebo's going to do in this offense.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well, I think last year, just collectively everybody kind of
bullied Cliff Kingsbury into moving receivers around. I think he
finally grew out of the air raid structure of like, oh,
you know, McClaren can only play on the left, And
I think what you saw was within that explosion of
the offense last year. But then now you're adding somebody
(11:04):
that he still wants to run those perimeter screens. It's,
you know, the one thing that Kingsbury is not, the
air raid gets a lot of the kind of a
lot of people think that it's just this deep choice,
right because a lot of people think of like RG
three and R Brieles. That's not really the air raid.
This is really an intermediate based offense. They really want
to throw it, but they want to throw it into space,
(11:26):
and this is a guy that is essentially if you
throw it to him in space, literally people are going
to bounce off of him. So I think it's a
good fit, especially when you have somebody that can stretch
the field and then you have somebody that can come
underneath in that intermediate with Debo and move him around.
I think that that offense can be really explosively.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I'm a big first play guy, like, let's see what
they run for their first play in different situations that
they're almost like, I try to like pretend that it's
making some grand statement of what the season is going
to be, like what they think, and to me, it
was very telling that the first play that they had
out there with Jayden Daniels and Deebo sims Amuel on
the field together was an end round to Debo and yeah, Okay,
(12:03):
you're this is what's this is what you want to do,
and I love that you're just showing that to us.
I'm going to throw out the Bills defense. Okay, I'm
trying not to overreact to the preseason because I know
it's a lot of backups out there, but I'm curious
what you think of this. And I was texting with
our friend Ali Connelly about this too, and the combination
(12:25):
of how freaked out Sean McDermott seems on hard knocks,
like you can actually see he he is not happy
with where their defense is, how freaked out he seems
on the sidelines. I was talking with Oli, so I
don't want to take credit for it, like about some
of the things he's doing in the preseason, like trying
(12:46):
things that that aren't working, and then thinking about this
group in general. He he's not thrilled with the safety
position overall, like he is just calling them out. And
you look at their secondary and you know you lose
Maxwell Yirston early. He's not anywhere close to being back.
He was their first round pick at cornerback, so cornerback
is very thin. You're not feeling great in general about safety,
(13:08):
which was like the bedrock of this defense for so long.
And I'm finding myself, and I apologize to our producer
Eric the Big Bills fin I'm finding myself. Actually, I
am I am by, I am a little more worried
about the Bills defense in general. Maybe I shouldn't be
coming out of training camp because of because of how
tight and McDermott seems about it. All you can speak
(13:31):
to kind of Cody the what they want to do
defensively and maybe where you think that they need some
work this year.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
This has been really since mcdermot's been there has been
one of the teams is consistently ran from a too
high shell, you know, and was running actually split field coverages,
so they were actually running like cover two quarters. They
were doing that last year. You could really tell that
they did not trust those safeties and so they started
getting into more situations where they're having to spin down
(14:00):
put guys in that place. You know, you look at
a guy like a Cole Bishop, they really want him
to start, they really want him to play. So they
played a little bit more covered three because that's what
he came from in Utah. You can see that, like
there's been times where he's lost in those deep coverages
where he doesn't know where to get his eyes, how
to transition from there, and so you can see that
they don't really like outside of Christian Benford, they're not
(14:22):
really comfortable with a lot of those guys, and I
think that that's where that like the Maxwell Harrison kid
played some of the most z own Kentucky played a
lot of zone coverage, so they got a long zone
corner fits the mold of what they wanted. He's not
going to be there, so now you're having to kind
of reshuffle everybody, and so you're right that you know
you're relying on a Joey Bosa and a bunch of
you know, recent draft picks to kind of go in
(14:45):
there and pass rush over coverage, right, like fix the
coverage by sacking the quarterback. And that's going to be
one of the interesting elements for the Bills.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
One of the things that really concerns the Bills, and
I think when you hear them talk about this player
and how much he'll contribute to them when he finally
gets on the field is Michael Hoyt, who emerged into
an extra rusher. But somebody who really made that pass rush,
that five man rush, their Cheetah package they called it
in Los Angeles come to life, and they were able
(15:15):
to manufacture and design all types of pressure using him.
He will not be on the field for the first
part of the season because of a suspension, and I
have to think that through a wrench into some of
their plans of how they really want this defense to
build out this year.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And I've read in the Athletic like they weren't They're like,
could could they just cut Larry Ogunjoby, Like is he
even going to make the team? And team sign Larry
go and Joby and then they get excited and he
has a couple of high weeks and they get sick
of him because maybe he's not as good a run defense.
And Joe Bisalia of the Athletic like was speculating he's
also suspended for the Yeah, it's like I'm not sure
(15:50):
he's totally gonna make the team. Like so that worries me.
They have like their second round pick TJ. Sanders up front,
but in general in County Entredavius Dan Jack, I'm just
like a little freaked out. And then there's just this
is more of a vibe space thing too. I was
just like, it's just hard. I think I think it's
just hard mental. I think it's hard to stay at
(16:11):
that level year after a year, and we've seen it.
The Bills actually have been a more inconsistent team in
the regular season. Bills fans know this. Over the last
you know, four or five years than you would expect,
they go through these dips and can they revvit back
up and be that high level of an offense. I
think they'll need to be to make up for the
defense not being as good or needing to take some time.
All right, give me one more thing, Cody that that's
(16:34):
changed your mind over last month.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I think too. There's so much hype. I go to
another team in the NFC that has a ton of
hype on you know, hey, this is a potential Super
Bowl winning team, and then you really look at it, like,
let's really look at the roster here, and again, I
think the forty nine ers have some some major issues
on defense. And yeah, I love I love Sala. They're
going to run it back. This is you know, they're
going to get back into what they were doing. He's
(16:56):
essentially tried to find Robert Sala and a bunch of
different people to get him to that's so true Robert
SAWA's defense. So he went out and actually it's kind
of when the Eagles finally just went out and said
how much money do you want to be our defensive coordinator,
vic Fanji.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I mean Tobiko did a good job of.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
It, No, a great job, but he also was there
in the glory days of that developmental staff under Robert
Sala Like he did a great job. But after Damiko,
what you're saying is true. They yes, they've basically gone like, Okay,
what what are some code words that you know that
can make us hire you because you know this defense well.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And that's the thing is, like you can see the frustration,
like the Wilkes Hira was really odd, didn't have any
didn't really know. Then you just go with Sorenson, who's
you know, Hey, you've been around, you're really a special
teams guy, but hey, can you call the defense? Is
here's a playbook And then I think you go and
look at it and you have a bunch of Yeah,
you have a first round draft pick in Michael Williams, right,
(17:50):
but you start looking at this this defensive line. This
is a defensive line driven scheme. Because it's a wide
nine scheme. They don't do a lot in the back end.
They really need this defense of line to go. This
used to be the best defensive line they had foot
eight guys that were drafted in the first round. Now
those guys are gone, so you have the kind of
a bunch of unknowns or a bunch of guys that
(18:11):
are kind of like rotational players. And then oh, hey
we have Nick Bosa. So you're really relying on one
player anytime. I just feel like in the in the NFL,
when you're especially on a defense, if you're lying on
one guy, you're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And when you're relying on a draft class to save
a major problem, almost never works. And so that's basically
what they decided to do. Michael Williams first round, Alfred
Collins second round, CJ West fourth round. That all sounds
good at the time.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Fast forward sounds good for twenty twenty six, right.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
That fast forward.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Mikeel Williams, I think they'll be happy with him so far,
but he's missed a couple of weeks. He's going to
be back on the field. Alfred Collins doesn't sound like
they are happy with he might not be playable, and
CJ Wests like a fourth round defensive tackle, So asking
them all to do a lot is maybe too much.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
The thing about Robert Sala as well is that this
has always been a front that he can play the
coverages behind them that they like to play because they
don't have to manufacture pressure. They like to rush the
way that they rush with the guys that they have
up front. Robert Sala has been one of the best
when he's coached to defense and doing that. It's not
that he can't blitz, it's not that he can't design
(19:17):
some of these things we're seeing, like the jesse Mentors
the Mike McDonald's do, but he has preferred in the
past to stay my guys are going to beat you
up front, and then our dbs can just and our
linebacker can just run wild and do whatever they do behind. Now,
this is not going to be a front in my opinion,
that's going to be able to do that. So he's
going to have to change. We can maybe get into
(19:38):
this in our next segment about what the future of
that is going to have to look like. But Kodia,
I think he's going to have to change his stripes
a little bit in order to get the most out
of this group in the short term.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, and I think it is is even reflective in
the secondary. I mean, they're wanting to, you know, kind
of we're relying on Jason Pinnock to be you know, Hafunga,
and that's going to be a problem I think going
forward in you know. The other thing too, is like
Greenlaw really hasn't played that much, but they've really missed
that guy next to Fred Warner to let him kind
of be the alien that he is and just go
(20:10):
go make plays. And they just don't have that right now.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And they're hopeful that de Winters will be that guy
who a sixth round pick from two years ago that
you haven't heard too much about and hasn't played that well.
When he has played that they believe the light has
turned on and he is one of those guys. And
this is why I do like covering training camp because
you can you can hear at least the excitement that
they think he will be that dude and he's going
(20:33):
to definitely play over their rookie third round pick Nick Martin.
We'll have to wait and see, but they do have
some rookies that'll play right away, like an Upton Stout
and I love ute and up the next step next
segments because I think talking about whether Salas defense still
makes sense in twenty five is something fun to get to.
So we're going to take a quick break. We won't
(20:57):
takrante Urser, just like I really maybe maybe killing Cam Robinson.
I like getting rid of it. We won't talk Chiefs
offensive line. We did that already, Cross Simmons.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I'm thinking we won't talk injuries like Rashaun Slater Seahawks
run game.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Oh man, we've hit that a lot. We'll see after
the break back on NFL Daily. You can check us
out on YouTube, like subscribe like it really helps us out.
Leave us a review on iTunes as well. We were
(21:31):
talking about Robert Sala and I think using that as
a starting point, do you think his style of defense,
for instance, fits in what's going on in twenty twenty
five or has kind of defensive trends not made it obsolete,
but made his type of defense less popular.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I do think that the static nature of the wide nine,
like we see with Schwartz in the Browns, what Quinn
was trying to do at really in Dallas, I think
that is kind of dying out. I mean, sports really
had to pivot. This was a defense that dominated a
couple of years ago, and just running man coverage. Man
coverage is kind of like you're gonna tap out at
(22:16):
some point, right. It's like think about your running a
track meet for seventeen games. You might be able to
do that for a while. But then we saw when
they got into the playoffs they had a pivot to
cover three get a couple of injuries. So I think
with Sola, the one thing that he has an advantage
on that him and Olbrick were able to build with
the Jets was actually start building some quarter structures. You know,
(22:37):
your quarter quarter half. They ran a ton of Cover six,
which is quarter quarter half.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
They explain that to the listener. What does any of
that mean?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Okay, so all quarters is is you essentially are taking
all four of your backfield defensive backs and you're capping
all the verticals of the receivers. So there's typically five
receivers that are eligible. One of those is going to
probably be a running back, and so we're not talking empty,
we're talking back in the backfield. So your four eligible
receivers that are really on the line, those guys are
(23:04):
going to be capped by defensive backs.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
And that's why they call it an umbrella coverage or
a shell.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Because if you need capped, what do you mean by.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Cap They're going to make sure they're on top of
the verticals, so you're not. It essentially is in the
old style of NFL cover four has always been a
really a third and long coverage. It's becoming more nuanced
now because teams are starting to really really lean into quarters.
One of the reasons why a lot of coaches don't
(23:32):
like quarters is because it is teaching intensive. You have
to actually have tags, you have to have certain ways
that we're going to match routes, and you have to
work those matches, and a lot of guys don't have
the time nor do they have the knowledge. I know
this sounds crazy, but quarters is not. This is not
college football, this is the NFL. And there's a lot
of guys that have not run quarters outside of like
(23:52):
third and law.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, and so when you play like this, and what
we've seen is in the emergence of this type of
system Fangio. But then also you know the the you
know Jim Johnson and the old Sean McDermott, ron Rivera days.
You know, those guys will always say, well, we were
doing quarters before Fangio was doing quarters and all this stuff,
and so now you're really seeing Fangio popularize this because
(24:16):
basically what it does is it builds a dome over
all of the unfolding layers of the passing game. And
you hear people complain about like the shell and too
high has ruined passing, and like all of these things.
And that's why this has become a popular thing. What
what Robert Sala had done in New York. And it's
(24:38):
also why Jeff Ulbrich became such a popular coaching hire
was because of the different ways that they were building
that hyper aggressive wide front that could still cut off
outside zone runs and screens that have become very very
popular in the league because if you think about it
this way, if your defensive line is automatically playing wider,
you're able to those players are able to cut off
(24:59):
the wider parts of the run game and the wider
parts of the passing game wide zone and schemes and screens.
So now you're going to a defense that can is trying,
at least I don't think he has a personnel this
year is trying to do both play wide up front
and dynamic in the pass rush, which means you can't
design as much pressure because your guys are more matching
(25:21):
routes and playing in the backfield.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
You called your substack match quarters. So this style of
defense gaining popularity in the NFL.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's good for you, good for.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Business, and nobody was explaining it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, you were ahead of the game. How did you
see that coming?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I mean, well, because this is what you had to
do in twenty ten to defend all the uber spread
that was hitting. Seeing college football and then also the
quarterreck run game is also an element. But the big
difference is the quarters that you see at the college
level and even at the high school level is not
necessarily the same at the NFL level. And I will
even go one further, like Vig Fangio isn't even a
(26:01):
quarters guy. He's actually more of a rotational cover six guy.
So he has cover two on one side right, which
is a triangle. Think of it. Think of it like
in geometry terms. Cover two is a triangle. You have
a corner in the flat, you got a linebacker overhanging
the scene, you have a safety on top. Quarters is
a box. You got a flat, you gotta seam. You
(26:22):
got two cap defenders, So you've created a box. And
so what he's done is he's actually in one of
his innovations, is really playing everything from a two hot shl. Yes,
he's really a Cover three guy. Most of the Fangio
adjacent guys are all cover three guys. But the way
that it mirrors when you have a cover two and
you can rotate it right, I can rotate it to
the nickel or the passing strength, or I can use
(26:44):
it to kind of get a zone double on the
single receiver to the backside. When you do that, everything
looks like wek rotation cover three, which means we're dropping
the safety away from the nickel. So you get this
muddying of quarterbacks have always looked at the the weak
side safety for their indicator. Well, if that guy doesn't move,
(27:05):
I don't have an indicator, And so the indicators are
now at the corner, and there's no quarterback that is
looking at the corner for the coverage indicator. So it's
just an extension in all these guys, especially like with
a solo. You go back in twenty eighteen to twenty nineteen,
they hopped on that quarters train really quick and kind
of ran with it. They run a little bit. It's
not the same The Ravens system guys. So the McDonald's
(27:28):
and the mentors, they have kind of picked up the
Fangio system because that's all stemmed from the nineteen eighty
nine Saints with the Jim Moore.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Senior right, and then I mean there's all this stuff
that feels new, all has antecedents to like what you're saying,
and Jim Mora and Buddy Ryan and even Buddy Ryan's
stuff he would say he was stealing it. And that's
back in the eighties and early nineties with a.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Lot of pressure. Now is coming from Bryan Man. It's
crazy what's coming out these days.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Right, So it's like it is amazing to think that's
how football has of and work. But what's a team
that you love Cody to watch now, whether it's twenty
twenty four and coming into twenty twenty five in terms
of what they're doing schematically and just like specifically with
their players mentioned the players too, that like you think
(28:18):
is on the cutting edge and really is about like
where defense is right now and where it's going.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
I think the most fun defense for the past three years.
I think if you ask a lot of NFL fans
will probably like it's got to be the Vikings, right,
they're just blitzing everybody face melter five thousand defense, right, Flora's.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Just just over there, just like face melting.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
It's actually not the best defense to watch if you
are a scheme nerd or you want to watch just
some wild stuff on Sunday is to watch the Arizona Cardinals.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right. But that's partly because they don't have but why that's.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
The talent, right, I mean part because they're just throwing
crazy stuff if they had better talent, do you think
they would be as crazy? They haven't changed, but they
haven't had the talent until this year, but.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
They But but even so, like if you go back
and really watch what Gannon was doing with the Eagles,
is a lot of the foundational stuff of what they're
trying to do. And then he goes and he hires
Patrick Tunney from from Florida, who is if you don't
know who Patrick Toney is, he is a basically a
cult legend in the coaching world. Like he is a
he's a schematic nerd like me, that's why we're friends.
(29:21):
But he he can do some things in the secondary
and design secondary stuff and it fits the quarter structures
with what Gannon was trying to get to. So gan
is see the Fangio wants to run his six and
eight stuff, so he wants to rotate the cover two,
whereas Gannon was like, I just want to play quarters,
and so what they're doing is true splitfield coverage where
(29:44):
I mean they did this. If go back and watch
the Chiefs preseason game and they're running a five man front,
they're running robber coverage, so they're dropping a safety down,
they're overlapping the corner to get into a cover too.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
They're doing it in the preseason.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
They're doing it in the preseason. They don't care.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
They you never see interesting schemes or everything is completely
vanilla in the preseason. That's not really that true anymore,
but I mean it is sometimes, but it's also not
with others.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
It's true for some offenses, but I posit that it's
it's not true anymore for teams that don't give a
hoot because they will run their stuff because they know
you're not going to see it. When when I talk
to coaches around the league and they're they're trying to
discern between what quarters is and what something different, different
type of zones are they can't because everything looks so
(30:30):
similar and these are at the top of their level coaches.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So Jessie Miner's dropping out defensive tackles to pick off
stets In Bennett in the fourth quarter of like a
meeting in the meaningless preseason game.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
It meant a lot to stets In Bennett. Yeah, I'm
just saying, but that's the thing. It's there. They're so
good now that it's okay that they're showing things because
they think that you're going to try to just play
your offense. True anyway, because if you're a quarterback and
you're having to do all of these things pre snap,
and your coordinator that's having to do all these things
pre snap that we've talked about before, that you have
to do a the Cardinals. I remember a couple of
(31:01):
years ago when Matthew Stafford was like, I didn't know
what the heck I was seeing right with the Cardinals.
So we just ran the ball fifty times, you know,
and so and if you can, you should. But like,
that's the thing about that defense. It's interesting is they
don't care if they're showing you their work because they
don't think you're going to be able to see it.
They think you're just going to have to play your
offense regardless because they don't think you're going to see
(31:22):
it the way that they're actually showing their rules.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
So what is it that they do that that's so difficult?
And do you think it can take the step forward?
The Cardinals specifically, because yeah, the argument would be against
them is like, Okay, year one they were just yeah,
it was interesting, but they weren't good. And then year two,
I think they punched above their weight, but ultimately they
were like average. I think they punched above their weight
(31:48):
in terms of the talent that they have, and they
added a lot up front this year. Are they going
to be as crazy this year? And like, what is it?
What is it that gets you going that's so crazy
that works? Ultimately, they they still were boom or bus.
Like I said, I think they overachieved, but I'm also
not They weren't one of the ten best defenses in
the league last year by pretty much any like Advanced
(32:11):
Metric fourteenth and DVO. They were playing well, and like
I said, like they weren't playing with great players either,
so that that's part of it.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Well, I think they've kind of built. They knew that
they needed to get the front structure right, that that's
what they needed. So they bring in like Kalay's Campbell
to work with a Walter Nolan right, and then you
have you have Josh Wett who now they have a
pass rusher, you have these hybrid, you still have a
Xaving Colin. So like what ended up when they got
there was it was like an island of misfit toys.
(32:40):
Is that they had all these like hybrids that they
didn't really know where they fit, and so what do
you do? You build a hybrid defense around that. What
they're doing really essentially is it's it's a build a
three four. So they have three safeties across the backside
with Buddha Baker really being the you know, the key
cog and all all of this, and then they can
(33:02):
blitz him. They can drop them to the boundary, they
can drop them to the field. They can go and
they can you know, run him, and they can run
that regular Tampa structure. They can run quarters, they can
run cover three. They can do almost anything out of
that three high structure, which is another trend that we're
seeing in the NFL. You know, we mentioned mentor on
here several times. But third down is typically when we're
(33:24):
starting to see these three high structures. But they play
it from base down, So first and second down they
are going to be in some sort of a five
men front. There's going to be one linebacker sitting there,
and you have no idea where Buddha Baker is going
to end up, and even what they showed in the preseason,
you have no idea what the final covered structure is
(33:44):
going to even look like. So we can drop him
down and you think, Okay, we know now what we're
getting into. But then the whole back end is like
an amba and it just like morphs into something that
you don't even know. And so I really think, yes,
there's a genius out of desperation, right, But I do
think that there's real structure here. It's not a gimmick.
(34:06):
They believe in it. And he's got one of the
you know, Gann has got one of the youngest staffs,
and I think it's refreshing that the younger generation. You're
seeing these younger dcs get shots early. They're not getting
shots in fifty and sixty when they're just like, I
ain't messing up because I just got this job. It's like, now, hey,
let's do some weird stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Nick Rallis is thirty two years old and he's had
that job what for two years?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
So yeah, he was thirty.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
And I will say there's also this growing trend and
I wonder if you could speak a little bit about
this too. Cody is a lot of these young especially
younger dcs that are coming up. And Chris Shule is
one of these guys in LA and Jesse Minter was
talking about how he studied. He studied so much offense
and he sat in so many offensive rooms. Kevin O'Connell
and Brandon Staley used to do this to each other.
They used to go into each other's meetings and try
(34:51):
to sitit it. But Nick Rallis, the first time I
ever met Nick Rallis was when he was in an
offensive coaching incubator, like studying offenses. And so I think
what they're seeing is how fast offenses are moving. How
you can't can you have to come up with a
defense and a plan that is going to be a
catch all for all kinds of rapidly moving and shifting
(35:13):
offensive cycles. Okay, the run game quote unquote is back
heavier personnel, using multiple tight ends, even a fullback. We
didn't talk about Seattle's run game, but Robbie outs like
starting to use the full back back in like these
throwback Shanahan which you say throwback now, but what was
it twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, But like these things are
coming back. So you have to have a defense where
(35:34):
it is going, to anticipate what offenses are doing and
where offenses are going. You have to understand that in
order to build what will be a catch all for
regardless of where you're at in the team building.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Well, I think too that this generation is starting with
my generation. I'm about turn forty here here in January.
My generation was probably that first generation in the early
two thousands that was like introduced to the spread. And
then so are coaching careers have been through the spread lens,
whether it was in college. And then we see that
spread explosion really in twenty eighteen when it broke football
(36:09):
at the NFL level, and these guys are used to like, hey,
we're already outmatched offensively, how can we figure this out?
So a lot of these guys are willing to do
some different things and think outside the box and then,
like you said, there's been a trend really within the
last five to ten years of offensive coaches going and
(36:30):
picking a really talented young defensive coach and bringing them
over and sitting in them in the office and having
them tell me, hey, how are they figure okay, how
are they matching this? What are the rules for this?
How can we take advantage of that? And so offenses
have accelerated, but they're also pulling that knowledge back and
bringing it back into the defensive room, and it's just
(36:50):
recycling and so that cat and mouse game is just
kind of continuing.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
There is I don't think a fear, but do you
think there are There are these things pieces out there
is like defense is making a comeback, that defense is ahead,
Like how A do you think that's remotely true at all?
And b Like along with what Jordan was saying in
terms of right now the trends on offense being back
to getting like a little heavier, a little more run heavy, Like,
(37:18):
what do you think defenses are gonna do this year
to help counter that?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Well, I just think historically the NFL goes through very
distinct cycles and these are predictable. We can see this.
You can go all the way back to the seventies
when Arnsbarker and the fifty three defense, this was basically
the birth of the three four. Then offense is advanced.
Then you have LT we have the move tied end
from Gibbs, so we have our h back and twelve
personnel packages come in, we have you know, you keep
(37:45):
going further down, and then now we get into where
defenses have essentially become a bunch of hybrid positionless players.
We talk about it all the time, it's been there,
but like we really truly are now the one thing
about football that will remain this name. So you talk
about will defense ever, you know, just dominate like it
did in the nineties when we were playing the Andanderthal
(38:07):
ball in three yards and a cloud of dust? But
I don't think it will.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
The spreads one, the NFL won't let it.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
No spread one. Yeah, passing one.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Passing one. Analytically we know it's more efficient than running
the running the ball. We we now understand how to
manipulate space. They know how to motions and and the
way that the rules are set up.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
With say if not, the NFL just changed the rules
right exactly exact. I'm not joking and that's obvious. They've
done it throughout the history.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Well, offense, Look, I'm a defensive guy and I can
just from from experience. People love offense, that's what puts.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
But I love defense.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
You know, I'm a glutton for punishment, So yes, I'm
a defensive coach by trade, so yes. But the offensively,
I think the way that this cycle always works is
that the defense comes back right, they figure it out,
and then the offense is forced to then do something
new and so I I think defensively, one of the
things we've mentioned it the quarters kind of waned last year,
(39:06):
but it didn't wane in the fact that people weren't
running it. It just came up and like more people
are running these. I call it targeted coverages. It's the
Fangio system where you're moving a cover two around, whether
it's to the nickel away. What you're building is backstops
and zone doubles. So I'm going to cap your best receiver.
(39:29):
But then I'm also if you want to run them
across the field because you don't want to run a vertical,
I'm going to create a backstop away from him. So
that's where these quarter structures comes in. And I think
that's one of the things that people don't understand about defense.
They just think two high shells either cover two or
it's quarters. And it's not like Fangio isn't a quarters guy,
but he transitioned into one. And why because what are
(39:51):
offenses doing right now? In the NFL? They're getting tighter
and tighter and tighter. One of the biggest things last
year was what's called a wave concept. So you essentially
run a vertical to the middle of the field and
then you take two deep crosses and you run them across.
It's the old yankee or the old cross country concept
that's been around for football forever. But they're adding an
(40:12):
extra guy, and so how are you going to defend that?
Speaker 4 (40:15):
Now?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
We got guys in quarter structures. Make sure that you
can have guys on both sides and they just tilt.
They just tilt, they can cross key it and so
they're picking it up. And so that's why I think
quarters will come back. I think man coverage has slowly
gone down, and then two man. Nobody runs two man anymore.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, and explain what two man is?
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Two safeties high man underneath what kills two men? Running quarterbacks?
What do we have on almost every single team a
quarterback that can scramble and so you don't. It's like
less than one percent.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
And also like that, it is interesting that the value
of like man cornerbacks who are that's the best thing
that they do feels which is weird, because that's that's
what you think about with cornerbacks, like their value has
gone down like those sorts of players I'm trying to
think of, who's a good example, like a Carlton Davis
is probably less valuable than he would have been, you know,
(41:05):
fifteen years ago.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
And I think part of it too is because these
coverages can morph around how routes are unfolding on the field,
that automatically actually increases the importance of cornerbacks who have
played in a match zone system or a system that
at least has pattern matched or a system that at
least which means that you are understanding where the route
(41:29):
is going to go. You're not playing a space on
the field like a zone would. Instead, you're playing where
you know the route is going to go. And that's
where I think this is different. That you're having defensive
players who can do more than ever, that are smarter
than ever that can fit. Have seen more football than
ever that can fit in these like ellipses around the
back portions of fields in accordance with where the offense
(41:52):
is trying to attack them. And I think that's why,
in part you saw a reaction and in part because
the nickels were so small, you saw a reaction to
teams doing the thing that I just said. Matthew Stafford said,
he told Sean McVay to do I don't know what
I'm seeing. Run the damn ball. Yeah, that's exactly why.
And that's exactly why you're seeing this spring out. You
only get maybe a year or two of this before
(42:13):
the next thing comes out, the next offense breaks, defense
thing comes.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Out, and waves happened so fast, like and I think.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
The increase the improvement of technology is a part of that.
Like we're talking about coaches that are sharing so many
things with each other now, where it used to be
like I carry my playbooks strapped to my body, you know,
into my house at night because I don't want someone
else taking it from me. Now everything's available to watch
and take. And these guys are are running these clinics
with each other. They're bringing college coaches up to run
(42:42):
clinics with them as offensive coaches, to sit in to
hear what they know, to pick their brains kind of
like what we're making Cody do for us here today.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
I know we appreciate it. Cody. Yeah, before we let
you go because we're wrapping up here.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
It's interesting, you know, you mentioned kind of like, Okay,
you got the five down line men, five up front,
and there's like one linebacker on the field, and that
is something I'm curious to hear your thoughts on just
linebackers right now. Not that they're an endangered species, but
it is really interesting to think, maybe more than any
position on defense, over the last twenty years, have evolved
(43:17):
and their importance has on one level minimized because there's
just less of them literally on the field that can
do everything. But man, it's important to have that one
guy for Jesse Minner to have that day on Henley,
that's the one linebacker on the field. So you watching
football and film like who do you love to watch
(43:37):
and maybe talk a little bit about how that position
has evolved and becomes so so difficult to find like
the right person to do that.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Well. I think a great example of where we are
in modern linebacker play is the commanders, because what you
have is a Bobby Wagner who is a traditional mic linebacker.
He is an a gap fitter. He's going to plug
the run. He can. He's good enough in coverage that
he can give you a little bit of space in
the middle of the field, but you don't necessarily want
him always guarding somebody. And then you have right next
(44:07):
to him as Frankie Luvu, who is he an edge
is he a linebacker? He can be whatever you need
him to be. You know he is staying in that.
You have a guy like Zach Bond, who essentially was
an old school Ted linebacker. Ted has a te in it,
meaning he just lined up on the tight end and
played essentially a glorified nine techniques, so he was outside
(44:28):
of the tight end and he was just a wall
builder for the defense. And then he comes to the
Eagles and Fangils moving him around like he was moving
Andrew Van Ginkel. And so I think what you see
with these off ball linebackers and really where we are
because of this hybridization of everything. You can't just be
a four down front anymore. You know, you have to
be able to get into odd fronts. You can't just
(44:51):
be a single high coverage team. You have to run
some of these two high structures. And I think what
you're seeing is you have to add value now as
a player, we're in an add value now, Like you
have to be able to be an off ball linebacker,
but then can you pass rush? Can you add value
or is your added value in the coverage so you
can run. You know, you have to find ways to
(45:12):
add value. And I think the linebacker position they're kind
of now two rooms. We have our kind of hybrid
guy that can go down and he can pass rush,
but then we also have our traditional linebackers that you
still need in the game because they still have to
fit the a gap.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:25):
I when I was on my training camp circuit, like
traveling around the camps, it was interesting. A coach that
I talked to described it as this giant like combating
math equation, right where if you already automatically know that
the way that offenses can play. Now you have a
running back who can work out of the passing game
and also run the ball. That's a plus two one
(45:45):
trait another trait two ads, it's a plus two. You
have tight ends who can block and be a mismatch
in the pass game. That's another plus two. You have
receivers who can block and also be a mismatch in
the pass game, that's another plus two. So if you're
not at least a plus two play at a skill
on offense, you are not going to be on the
field for as many downs. They're going to try to
take you off as much as possible. Conversely, on the
(46:07):
defensive side, if you cannot become a plus two player,
whether it's the positions you can play or the phases
of football that you can contribute in, you are not
going to be on the field at this point in football,
and you're just trying to match the opposite side's numbers advantage,
which is always the dance that happens when you're scheming
him game plan against people.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Unless you join the Raiders as a linebacker, who I
think Pete Carroll is just like lining up like not
plus two's just guys that they're old school from the
nineties and kind of bring it. No, No, that's hard,
you got me thinking, Johd Campbell, I mean, is that
is that plus one? And Zach Bond I think is
(46:47):
sort of a prototype now, which is crazy to think
about based on where he was a year ago at
this time, But like, how do you think those two
guys together, Like they're going to deploy those two What
can you do with two linebackers like that?
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Well, that's kind of one of the trends we're seeing
is that, Okay, we're a nickel base the defense, meaning
that we're gonna have five DB's on the field. Okay,
Traditionally that's with a four down line. Okay, the Penny front,
which is a five to one, which is what we
talked about with the Cardinals. That's kind of people are
starting to move away from it because those edges aren't
dynamic enough. And when I put five to one out there,
(47:22):
you know, like when our PENNI pegage is out there,
you know, here's a certain set of things that we
can do, and here's a certain set of things that
we can't. So it makes it often seasier. But if
I go a four down lineman and I'm in a
regular traditional nickel, but then I walk one of my
guys down, whether it's strong or weak. Now were and
now we're into a five min front, changes the blocking
changes the protections. Is he going to drop back out?
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Is he not?
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Are you gonna blitz and then drop them? Like, there's
a million different things that now variable. So if a
guy like you know McVeigh is going to run everything
through eleven personnel, but you know your your receivers, you know,
a fossil full back, Okay, well that's great less than
a half person right, So what if we did the
same thing on defense? And I think that's why you
were starting to see too. Like another trend is safety collection, right,
(48:09):
big Nickels back from a decade ago. It's back, We're
going to have three safeties on the field. So I
think that part of it. Now Fangio has two guys
that he can do that with and you don't know
where they're going to come from.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
It's also just humans are getting better at doing everything athletically.
I feel like that that's underrated. It's like my theory
that you know, almost every NFL game has a play
that's better than any play that happened in the seventies.
It's just like the humans are advancing. I mean, you
look at basketball, you look at tennis, you look at football.
A lot of the things that you just said about football,
(48:42):
like to me. You could say about basketball, you could
say about tennis. Where is everyone can now do everything
It used to just be like this is his style
play and it's positionless and it's offense defense just like
we're getting better.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
It's exciting. Cody.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
It was a pleasure to have you on. We gotta
do this again. My brain is it's expanding, it's going
to explode from everything I learned here on defense.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
And I love having you on. And we got to
make this flight worth it.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I mean, you came all the way out here for
a little old NFL Daily.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Go check out Substack.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
I can tell, yes, I can tell you're very pleased
with yourself when we are going to football practice.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Man, okay, you went to sight Ran Come on now,
like what you what do we doing?
Speaker 1 (49:23):
He told me that he came out for NFL Daily,
So I'm just taking there.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
You're the host of NFL Daily. Of course he said
that to you.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
I loved it, so yeah, make it count. Check out
Cody's substack match Quarters. Join the twenty thousand subscribers there
for match Quarters on substack, and he's got the Let's
Talk Ball podcast as well. It was a pleasure, Jordan.
You will be back with me next week. But the
next time you'll hear from me will be Sunday night. Yes,
(49:51):
the last of our weekly Sunday evening recaps with Nick Chuck.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I'm gonna miss it.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
I know. I like the vibe. They're good, good vibes
in that.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
I feel like you start off and you're like excited
for the preason, and then you're ready for it.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Then I don't know what it says about me, but this.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Year, I think I've actually like enjoyed the preseason more
than ever.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
So we'll be back Sunday evening. Football's back
Welcome to NFL Daily, where we don't know anything about
the SABAN cover seven man match defense.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
But our guest does.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I'm Greg Rosenthal, and I'm here with Jordan Rodrieg and
I'm in the Chris Westling podcast studio, and I'm with
one of Jordan's friends and one of the biggest ball
knowers in the business, Cody Alexander, who runs match quarters
on the Substack. And yes, that was like one of
your recent posts was about the SABAN cover seven man
(00:35):
match defense and we're going to break that down on
this show for one hundred and fifty minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Let's it might take a little longer.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, Okay, we're not gonna do that actually, because you know,
I wouldn't know.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
What you listeners do not turn off the show.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, and Cody also hosts the Let's Talk Ball podcast,
but everyone check him out on substack where he has
built up a big following top ten in sports on substack,
and he's been building this up for almost a decade
getting into the nitty gritty of defensive play.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So what we're gonna do on this show.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
First, we want to talk a little bit like big
picture about anything we've seen over the last month just
quickly go around and talk about anything we feel differently about.
And I'm sure for you, Cody, it'll be maybe on
the defensive side of the ball, but just some rapid
fire what we feel differently about after watching some preseason
and everything. But then I think we're going to get
into a bigger picture conversation about what's next with defense
(01:32):
and Cody, it sounds like you're the type of guy
that people like Jordan and maybe coaches and just fans
who want to know more, they go to you to
like understand how defenses are actually run. So instead of
being the guy behind the scenes, we wanted to have
you on the show behind the curtain if you're instead
(01:54):
of like stealing your information like Jordan normally does, we're
going to have you here and you can just give
it so.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Much appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah, we're excited to have you, Cody. Obviously, you've taught
me a lot about defense over the years. You've taught
a lot of people a lot about defense over the years,
And I think what's nice is we're highlighting defense today.
Most of the time, everybody fireflies toward offense. Cody, I
know you have a lot of experience with that, you
explained defense to people who need to know how defenses
affect offense.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, the thing about defense is that it's not just
tackle somebody, right or cover somebody. You know, there's a
lot to it and it's really just an orchestration and
a lot of because it's reactionary in where the offense
is always producing something, the defense has to react to
it and it's setting you up for success. So it's
(02:40):
much more complicated than just tackle somebody.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
But you dumb it down for me and I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's amazing and Cody's a great example.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
We were talking before the show of you know, you
were a coach and a teacher and eventually after doing
this already for six years, you were able to turn
it into your full time job. And it's just defense
on the substance, there is no offense. Occasionally, people they'll
try to get in the comments talk about it. People
kick them off the site. I'm making that part up,
(03:11):
but there's a lot of pressure on us. I found
out as we were talking that Cody flew out in
part for this show, which Jordan bad job by you
not telling me that, I mean, that's that's too much responsibility.
So we got to make it count. Everyone go check
out match quarters. And why don't we start with you, Cody,
something that you have noticed, whether it's a scheme because
(03:32):
I don't know where you're going with this, or a
player or something that you've noticed over the last month,
maybe you kind of feel a little differently about.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
That you've learned over the last month.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I look at there's so much hype around the Washington
Commander and a lot of it focuses on the offensive side,
but I have a big pause on the defensive side,
and just the track record of that staff just in
general of now we're looking at this. This defensive line
(04:02):
is a little bit scary to me heading into the season,
and you look at it with you know, their big
pickup was Kinlaw in the off season. He doesn't really
want to have much to do with the run game. Okay,
so there's a pattern here, right. We have Von Miller
and Bobby Wagner that are both like, I mean, they're
they're pushing, you know, late thirties, right, Like, are we
(04:23):
really relying on this for a whole year? This is
a game of attrition. And then you know, Will Harris
had one good year right from the Saints, they get Latimore.
Latimore's never finished the season, So you start really looking
at this, It's like, why is Farrell Armstrong, where's the
pass rush coming from? Where's the run stopping ability? You
can't have Bobby Wagner having two hundred tackles, right, Frankie
Louvu's great, But you start looking at all these pieces
(04:44):
and it's a little scary heading into the season.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And do you think they could make up schematically maybe
what they lack in just beef because it's a surprising
way to attack their offseason after you know, getting blown
out by the I know that was amazing that they
got into that game, but that's a team you're going
to obviously have to face twice every season.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Schematically, they don't know. There's not a lot of answers
from it. I mean, this is a defense that wants
to play man coverage primarily. They if you even go
back to Dallas days, I mean, Dallas's problem right now
fitting to run has a lot to do with the
way that they developed that the dan Quinn's system there,
and he's trying to mirror that there, and I just
don't know. When you start really looking at it. You know,
(05:26):
at a player by player level, is this going to
work or are they going to have the same problems,
like are you going to essentially have to score thirty
five points a game in order to win some of
these games? And I don't know if that's necessarily sustainable.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
And they paid Johnny Newton, first of all, is getting
some pop in training camp, and he was injured last year,
and obviously they really hope that he takes a step
forward in order to actually shore up that interior defensive line.
At the same time, they paid Javon Kinlaw more money
than a lot of us expected him to get, and
there was familiarity with Adam Peters, who obviously knew kin
Law very well back when he was in San Francisco.
(06:01):
But to your point, you can't expect Bobby Wagner to
just have to hold the line against the run. And
he's still a great run defender, still one of the
hardest hitters, best tacklers in football. But you also watched
the way that they deployed Frankie Louvau a lot last year.
It was almost like, where's our emergency? Is it pressure
or is it coverage or is it run? Start helping
and run support, like he had to play so many positions.
(06:24):
He was great at him one of our favorite players
on NFL Daily. But I guess I would say all
the optimism and that came out about the way that
they were starting to try to reinforce this defense. I
feel a little bit worried about them heading into this season.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
This was I feel like we hadn't done enough Commander's
talk on this show and then this was a big
week for it because they made it into our most
interesting offenses and this is our defensive talk. And when
I used to do fantasy football, we I used to say, like, oh,
that's an everybody in the pool game because their defense
ain't isn't very good, but their offense is amazing, And
I feel like this could be there could be a
lot of like everybody in the pool for Fantasy Days
(07:05):
and Commanders game because because games got are going to
be in the thirties. While I'm thinking fantasy, I'll just
throw out a quick one Baseiel Tuton. Weirdly, I hadn't
got a chance to watch his tape until after we
did the recap show last Sunday. Fourth round pick for
the Jaguars at running back. I feel differently just about him.
I thought his tape in the preseason like looks different
(07:26):
and better than it looked in college. And his ability
to cut while moving forward with the power and aggression
that he has is something, and like that would be
the one guy. And we had the Fantasy show earlier
in the week that I would just make sure you
have him in every league because I think they will
find a way to get him on the field, because
I think he's their best running back. Probably right now,
(07:47):
I think he's probably it makes more sense. Maybe Tank
Biggsy Bigsby is the guy that gets traded. There's been
some whispers that someone gets traded there. Maybe Bigsby goes
etn Stays is a nice compliment. And sometimes you find
these running backs in the second day, the second third
day of the draft and they come into the league
and they're immediately like top twelve to fifteen runners. I
don't know if that's I'm not, but I think more
(08:07):
than any other position, you can see that in the
preseason he looks freaking amazing. Yeah, I feel different.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
He runs hard, his success rate is leading. It's a preseason.
I don't want to get crazy about success rate. Just yet,
but a success rate is leading other running backs in
the NFL in terms of per play. And I actually
kind of have a fun basial Tutin story because James Gladstone,
the GM for the Jaguars man, he really pissed off
his old boss and mentor less sneed because that was
(08:32):
a player the Rams had very very high on their
draft board, and James Gladstone also had him very very
high on their draft board. Liam Cohen was concerned at
the start of camp about how many times Basil Tutin
had put the ball on the ground aka fumbled the
ball in practice. But he seems to have been cleaning
that up in a big way. And if he can
(08:52):
keep it clean, he's going to be their lead one
of their lead players in no time. And I think
he's just a really great fit for what they want
to do with their run game.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, he had a major fumbling problem in college. Yeah,
that will get you benched.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So that was like a big, a big reason why
he fell in the draft after you know, the forty
time that he put up. But I don't know, you
can just see it. The way he moves is rare. Jordan,
give us one thing that you feel differently about.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
I have another commander's one. Oh, actually it's about Deebo Samuel.
I kind of really really felt bad for this guy
at the start of training camp because it didn't think
like seemed like optically anything could go right for him. Obviously,
he was getting a lot of memes made out of
him and a lot of really unfair I think criticism.
People were making a thing out of the size he looked,
(09:40):
at least when they opened training camp, and then the
Terry McLaurin situation is sort of lurking in the distance
of that entire offense. In general, I was not one
of the body shamers, but I did also still wonder
how Debo would fit into this offense. So now I
feel differently about that. And part of it was I
got to go up to Commander's camp and see everything
(10:00):
he's doing in that offense. He has clicked with Jade
and Daniels, and he is doing like literally a little
bit of everything in that passing game, including deep down
the field, including the intermedia and long range. Where he
looks smooth, he looks light on his feet, he looks fresh,
he has speed, and Jade and Daniels hit him on
a couple of deep throws down the field. They seem
(10:21):
to be really building that chemistry if they can just
get Terry McLaurin back. I feel a lot better about
what Deebo's fit and roll actually is in this defense.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Cody, Yeah, to me, I think, actually, no, you're not
allowed to talk about offense in this I even.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Said defense as I was looking at Cody. Oh my god,
it's like Pavlovian at this time. But I feel a
lot better about what Deebo's going to do in this offense.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well, I think last year, just collectively everybody kind of
bullied Cliff Kingsbury into moving receivers around. I think he
finally grew out of the air raid structure of like, oh,
you know, McClaren can only play on the left, And
I think what you saw was within that explosion of
the offense last year. But then now you're adding somebody
(11:04):
that he still wants to run those perimeter screens. It's,
you know, the one thing that Kingsbury is not, the
air raid gets a lot of the kind of a
lot of people think that it's just this deep choice,
right because a lot of people think of like RG
three and R Brieles. That's not really the air raid.
This is really an intermediate based offense. They really want
to throw it, but they want to throw it into space,
(11:26):
and this is a guy that is essentially if you
throw it to him in space, literally people are going
to bounce off of him. So I think it's a
good fit, especially when you have somebody that can stretch
the field and then you have somebody that can come
underneath in that intermediate with Debo and move him around.
I think that that offense can be really explosively.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I'm a big first play guy, like, let's see what
they run for their first play in different situations that
they're almost like, I try to like pretend that it's
making some grand statement of what the season is going
to be, like what they think, and to me, it
was very telling that the first play that they had
out there with Jayden Daniels and Deebo sims Amuel on
the field together was an end round to Debo and yeah, Okay,
(12:03):
you're this is what's this is what you want to do,
and I love that you're just showing that to us.
I'm going to throw out the Bills defense. Okay, I'm
trying not to overreact to the preseason because I know
it's a lot of backups out there, but I'm curious
what you think of this. And I was texting with
our friend Ali Connelly about this too, and the combination
(12:25):
of how freaked out Sean McDermott seems on hard knocks,
like you can actually see he he is not happy
with where their defense is, how freaked out he seems
on the sidelines. I was talking with Oli, so I
don't want to take credit for it, like about some
of the things he's doing in the preseason, like trying
(12:46):
things that that aren't working, and then thinking about this
group in general. He he's not thrilled with the safety
position overall, like he is just calling them out. And
you look at their secondary and you know you lose
Maxwell Yirston early. He's not anywhere close to being back.
He was their first round pick at cornerback, so cornerback
is very thin. You're not feeling great in general about safety,
(13:08):
which was like the bedrock of this defense for so long.
And I'm finding myself, and I apologize to our producer
Eric the Big Bills fin I'm finding myself. Actually, I
am I am by, I am a little more worried
about the Bills defense in general. Maybe I shouldn't be
coming out of training camp because of because of how
tight and McDermott seems about it. All you can speak
(13:31):
to kind of Cody the what they want to do
defensively and maybe where you think that they need some
work this year.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
This has been really since mcdermot's been there has been
one of the teams is consistently ran from a too
high shell, you know, and was running actually split field coverages,
so they were actually running like cover two quarters. They
were doing that last year. You could really tell that
they did not trust those safeties and so they started
getting into more situations where they're having to spin down
(14:00):
put guys in that place. You know, you look at
a guy like a Cole Bishop, they really want him
to start, they really want him to play. So they
played a little bit more covered three because that's what
he came from in Utah. You can see that, like
there's been times where he's lost in those deep coverages
where he doesn't know where to get his eyes, how
to transition from there, and so you can see that
they don't really like outside of Christian Benford, they're not
(14:22):
really comfortable with a lot of those guys, and I
think that that's where that like the Maxwell Harrison kid
played some of the most z own Kentucky played a
lot of zone coverage, so they got a long zone
corner fits the mold of what they wanted. He's not
going to be there, so now you're having to kind
of reshuffle everybody, and so you're right that you know
you're relying on a Joey Bosa and a bunch of
you know, recent draft picks to kind of go in
(14:45):
there and pass rush over coverage, right, like fix the
coverage by sacking the quarterback. And that's going to be
one of the interesting elements for the Bills.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
One of the things that really concerns the Bills, and
I think when you hear them talk about this player
and how much he'll contribute to them when he finally
gets on the field is Michael Hoyt, who emerged into
an extra rusher. But somebody who really made that pass rush,
that five man rush, their Cheetah package they called it
in Los Angeles come to life, and they were able
(15:15):
to manufacture and design all types of pressure using him.
He will not be on the field for the first
part of the season because of a suspension, and I
have to think that through a wrench into some of
their plans of how they really want this defense to
build out this year.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And I've read in the Athletic like they weren't They're like,
could could they just cut Larry Ogunjoby, Like is he
even going to make the team? And team sign Larry
go and Joby and then they get excited and he
has a couple of high weeks and they get sick
of him because maybe he's not as good a run defense.
And Joe Bisalia of the Athletic like was speculating he's
also suspended for the Yeah, it's like I'm not sure
(15:50):
he's totally gonna make the team. Like so that worries me.
They have like their second round pick TJ. Sanders up front,
but in general in County Entredavius Dan Jack, I'm just
like a little freaked out. And then there's just this
is more of a vibe space thing too. I was
just like, it's just hard. I think I think it's
just hard mental. I think it's hard to stay at
(16:11):
that level year after a year, and we've seen it.
The Bills actually have been a more inconsistent team in
the regular season. Bills fans know this. Over the last
you know, four or five years than you would expect,
they go through these dips and can they revvit back
up and be that high level of an offense. I
think they'll need to be to make up for the
defense not being as good or needing to take some time.
All right, give me one more thing, Cody that that's
(16:34):
changed your mind over last month.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I think too. There's so much hype. I go to
another team in the NFC that has a ton of
hype on you know, hey, this is a potential Super
Bowl winning team, and then you really look at it, like,
let's really look at the roster here, and again, I
think the forty nine ers have some some major issues
on defense. And yeah, I love I love Sala. They're
going to run it back. This is you know, they're
going to get back into what they were doing. He's
(16:56):
essentially tried to find Robert Sala and a bunch of
different people to get him to that's so true Robert
SAWA's defense. So he went out and actually it's kind
of when the Eagles finally just went out and said
how much money do you want to be our defensive coordinator,
vic Fanji.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I mean Tobiko did a good job of.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
It, No, a great job, but he also was there
in the glory days of that developmental staff under Robert
Sala Like he did a great job. But after Damiko,
what you're saying is true. They yes, they've basically gone like, Okay,
what what are some code words that you know that
can make us hire you because you know this defense well.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And that's the thing is, like you can see the frustration,
like the Wilkes Hira was really odd, didn't have any
didn't really know. Then you just go with Sorenson, who's
you know, Hey, you've been around, you're really a special
teams guy, but hey, can you call the defense? Is
here's a playbook And then I think you go and
look at it and you have a bunch of Yeah,
you have a first round draft pick in Michael Williams, right,
(17:50):
but you start looking at this this defensive line. This
is a defensive line driven scheme. Because it's a wide
nine scheme. They don't do a lot in the back end.
They really need this defense of line to go. This
used to be the best defensive line they had foot
eight guys that were drafted in the first round. Now
those guys are gone, so you have the kind of
a bunch of unknowns or a bunch of guys that
(18:11):
are kind of like rotational players. And then oh, hey
we have Nick Bosa. So you're really relying on one
player anytime. I just feel like in the in the NFL,
when you're especially on a defense, if you're lying on
one guy, you're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And when you're relying on a draft class to save
a major problem, almost never works. And so that's basically
what they decided to do. Michael Williams first round, Alfred
Collins second round, CJ West fourth round. That all sounds
good at the time.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Fast forward sounds good for twenty twenty six, right.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
That fast forward.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Mikeel Williams, I think they'll be happy with him so far,
but he's missed a couple of weeks. He's going to
be back on the field. Alfred Collins doesn't sound like
they are happy with he might not be playable, and
CJ Wests like a fourth round defensive tackle, So asking
them all to do a lot is maybe too much.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
The thing about Robert Sala as well is that this
has always been a front that he can play the
coverages behind them that they like to play because they
don't have to manufacture pressure. They like to rush the
way that they rush with the guys that they have
up front. Robert Sala has been one of the best
when he's coached to defense and doing that. It's not
that he can't blitz, it's not that he can't design
(19:17):
some of these things we're seeing, like the jesse Mentors
the Mike McDonald's do, but he has preferred in the
past to stay my guys are going to beat you
up front, and then our dbs can just and our
linebacker can just run wild and do whatever they do behind. Now,
this is not going to be a front in my opinion,
that's going to be able to do that. So he's
going to have to change. We can maybe get into
(19:38):
this in our next segment about what the future of
that is going to have to look like. But Kodia,
I think he's going to have to change his stripes
a little bit in order to get the most out
of this group in the short term.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, and I think it is is even reflective in
the secondary. I mean, they're wanting to, you know, kind
of we're relying on Jason Pinnock to be you know, Hafunga,
and that's going to be a problem I think going
forward in you know. The other thing too, is like
Greenlaw really hasn't played that much, but they've really missed
that guy next to Fred Warner to let him kind
of be the alien that he is and just go
(20:10):
go make plays. And they just don't have that right now.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And they're hopeful that de Winters will be that guy
who a sixth round pick from two years ago that
you haven't heard too much about and hasn't played that well.
When he has played that they believe the light has
turned on and he is one of those guys. And
this is why I do like covering training camp because
you can you can hear at least the excitement that
they think he will be that dude and he's going
(20:33):
to definitely play over their rookie third round pick Nick Martin.
We'll have to wait and see, but they do have
some rookies that'll play right away, like an Upton Stout
and I love ute and up the next step next
segments because I think talking about whether Salas defense still
makes sense in twenty five is something fun to get to.
So we're going to take a quick break. We won't
(20:57):
takrante Urser, just like I really maybe maybe killing Cam Robinson.
I like getting rid of it. We won't talk Chiefs
offensive line. We did that already, Cross Simmons.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I'm thinking we won't talk injuries like Rashaun Slater Seahawks
run game.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Oh man, we've hit that a lot. We'll see after
the break back on NFL Daily. You can check us
out on YouTube, like subscribe like it really helps us out.
Leave us a review on iTunes as well. We were
(21:31):
talking about Robert Sala and I think using that as
a starting point, do you think his style of defense,
for instance, fits in what's going on in twenty twenty
five or has kind of defensive trends not made it obsolete,
but made his type of defense less popular.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I do think that the static nature of the wide nine,
like we see with Schwartz in the Browns, what Quinn
was trying to do at really in Dallas, I think
that is kind of dying out. I mean, sports really
had to pivot. This was a defense that dominated a
couple of years ago, and just running man coverage. Man
coverage is kind of like you're gonna tap out at
(22:16):
some point, right. It's like think about your running a
track meet for seventeen games. You might be able to
do that for a while. But then we saw when
they got into the playoffs they had a pivot to
cover three get a couple of injuries. So I think
with Sola, the one thing that he has an advantage
on that him and Olbrick were able to build with
the Jets was actually start building some quarter structures. You know,
(22:37):
your quarter quarter half. They ran a ton of Cover six,
which is quarter quarter half.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
They explain that to the listener. What does any of
that mean?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Okay, so all quarters is is you essentially are taking
all four of your backfield defensive backs and you're capping
all the verticals of the receivers. So there's typically five
receivers that are eligible. One of those is going to
probably be a running back, and so we're not talking empty,
we're talking back in the backfield. So your four eligible
receivers that are really on the line, those guys are
(23:04):
going to be capped by defensive backs.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
And that's why they call it an umbrella coverage or
a shell.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Because if you need capped, what do you mean by.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Cap They're going to make sure they're on top of
the verticals, so you're not. It essentially is in the
old style of NFL cover four has always been a
really a third and long coverage. It's becoming more nuanced
now because teams are starting to really really lean into quarters.
One of the reasons why a lot of coaches don't
(23:32):
like quarters is because it is teaching intensive. You have
to actually have tags, you have to have certain ways
that we're going to match routes, and you have to
work those matches, and a lot of guys don't have
the time nor do they have the knowledge. I know
this sounds crazy, but quarters is not. This is not
college football, this is the NFL. And there's a lot
of guys that have not run quarters outside of like
(23:52):
third and law.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, and so when you play like this, and what
we've seen is in the emergence of this type of
system Fangio. But then also you know the the you
know Jim Johnson and the old Sean McDermott, ron Rivera days.
You know, those guys will always say, well, we were
doing quarters before Fangio was doing quarters and all this stuff,
and so now you're really seeing Fangio popularize this because
(24:16):
basically what it does is it builds a dome over
all of the unfolding layers of the passing game. And
you hear people complain about like the shell and too
high has ruined passing, and like all of these things.
And that's why this has become a popular thing. What
what Robert Sala had done in New York. And it's
(24:38):
also why Jeff Ulbrich became such a popular coaching hire
was because of the different ways that they were building
that hyper aggressive wide front that could still cut off
outside zone runs and screens that have become very very
popular in the league because if you think about it
this way, if your defensive line is automatically playing wider,
you're able to those players are able to cut off
(24:59):
the wider parts of the run game and the wider
parts of the passing game wide zone and schemes and screens.
So now you're going to a defense that can is trying,
at least I don't think he has a personnel this
year is trying to do both play wide up front
and dynamic in the pass rush, which means you can't
design as much pressure because your guys are more matching
(25:21):
routes and playing in the backfield.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
You called your substack match quarters. So this style of
defense gaining popularity in the NFL.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's good for you, good for.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Business, and nobody was explaining it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, you were ahead of the game. How did you
see that coming?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I mean, well, because this is what you had to
do in twenty ten to defend all the uber spread
that was hitting. Seeing college football and then also the
quarterreck run game is also an element. But the big
difference is the quarters that you see at the college
level and even at the high school level is not
necessarily the same at the NFL level. And I will
even go one further, like Vig Fangio isn't even a
(26:01):
quarters guy. He's actually more of a rotational cover six guy.
So he has cover two on one side right, which
is a triangle. Think of it. Think of it like
in geometry terms. Cover two is a triangle. You have
a corner in the flat, you got a linebacker overhanging
the scene, you have a safety on top. Quarters is
a box. You got a flat, you gotta seam. You
(26:22):
got two cap defenders, So you've created a box. And
so what he's done is he's actually in one of
his innovations, is really playing everything from a two hot shl. Yes,
he's really a Cover three guy. Most of the Fangio
adjacent guys are all cover three guys. But the way
that it mirrors when you have a cover two and
you can rotate it right, I can rotate it to
the nickel or the passing strength, or I can use
(26:44):
it to kind of get a zone double on the
single receiver to the backside. When you do that, everything
looks like wek rotation cover three, which means we're dropping
the safety away from the nickel. So you get this
muddying of quarterbacks have always looked at the the weak
side safety for their indicator. Well, if that guy doesn't move,
(27:05):
I don't have an indicator, And so the indicators are
now at the corner, and there's no quarterback that is
looking at the corner for the coverage indicator. So it's
just an extension in all these guys, especially like with
a solo. You go back in twenty eighteen to twenty nineteen,
they hopped on that quarters train really quick and kind
of ran with it. They run a little bit. It's
not the same The Ravens system guys. So the McDonald's
(27:28):
and the mentors, they have kind of picked up the
Fangio system because that's all stemmed from the nineteen eighty
nine Saints with the Jim Moore.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Senior right, and then I mean there's all this stuff
that feels new, all has antecedents to like what you're saying,
and Jim Mora and Buddy Ryan and even Buddy Ryan's
stuff he would say he was stealing it. And that's
back in the eighties and early nineties with a.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Lot of pressure. Now is coming from Bryan Man. It's
crazy what's coming out these days.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Right, So it's like it is amazing to think that's
how football has of and work. But what's a team
that you love Cody to watch now, whether it's twenty
twenty four and coming into twenty twenty five in terms
of what they're doing schematically and just like specifically with
their players mentioned the players too, that like you think
(28:18):
is on the cutting edge and really is about like
where defense is right now and where it's going.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
I think the most fun defense for the past three years.
I think if you ask a lot of NFL fans
will probably like it's got to be the Vikings, right,
they're just blitzing everybody face melter five thousand defense, right, Flora's.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Just just over there, just like face melting.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
It's actually not the best defense to watch if you
are a scheme nerd or you want to watch just
some wild stuff on Sunday is to watch the Arizona Cardinals.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right. But that's partly because they don't have but why that's.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
The talent, right, I mean part because they're just throwing
crazy stuff if they had better talent, do you think
they would be as crazy? They haven't changed, but they
haven't had the talent until this year, but.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
They But but even so, like if you go back
and really watch what Gannon was doing with the Eagles,
is a lot of the foundational stuff of what they're
trying to do. And then he goes and he hires
Patrick Tunney from from Florida, who is if you don't
know who Patrick Toney is, he is a basically a
cult legend in the coaching world. Like he is a
he's a schematic nerd like me, that's why we're friends.
(29:21):
But he he can do some things in the secondary
and design secondary stuff and it fits the quarter structures
with what Gannon was trying to get to. So gan
is see the Fangio wants to run his six and
eight stuff, so he wants to rotate the cover two,
whereas Gannon was like, I just want to play quarters,
and so what they're doing is true splitfield coverage where
(29:44):
I mean they did this. If go back and watch
the Chiefs preseason game and they're running a five man front,
they're running robber coverage, so they're dropping a safety down,
they're overlapping the corner to get into a cover too.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
They're doing it in the preseason.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
They're doing it in the preseason. They don't care.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
They you never see interesting schemes or everything is completely
vanilla in the preseason. That's not really that true anymore,
but I mean it is sometimes, but it's also not
with others.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
It's true for some offenses, but I posit that it's
it's not true anymore for teams that don't give a
hoot because they will run their stuff because they know
you're not going to see it. When when I talk
to coaches around the league and they're they're trying to
discern between what quarters is and what something different, different
type of zones are they can't because everything looks so
(30:30):
similar and these are at the top of their level coaches.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So Jessie Miner's dropping out defensive tackles to pick off
stets In Bennett in the fourth quarter of like a
meeting in the meaningless preseason game.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
It meant a lot to stets In Bennett. Yeah, I'm
just saying, but that's the thing. It's there. They're so
good now that it's okay that they're showing things because
they think that you're going to try to just play
your offense. True anyway, because if you're a quarterback and
you're having to do all of these things pre snap,
and your coordinator that's having to do all these things
pre snap that we've talked about before, that you have
to do a the Cardinals. I remember a couple of
(31:01):
years ago when Matthew Stafford was like, I didn't know
what the heck I was seeing right with the Cardinals.
So we just ran the ball fifty times, you know,
and so and if you can, you should. But like,
that's the thing about that defense. It's interesting is they
don't care if they're showing you their work because they
don't think you're going to be able to see it.
They think you're just going to have to play your
offense regardless because they don't think you're going to see
(31:22):
it the way that they're actually showing their rules.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
So what is it that they do that that's so difficult?
And do you think it can take the step forward?
The Cardinals specifically, because yeah, the argument would be against
them is like, Okay, year one they were just yeah,
it was interesting, but they weren't good. And then year two,
I think they punched above their weight, but ultimately they
were like average. I think they punched above their weight
(31:48):
in terms of the talent that they have, and they
added a lot up front this year. Are they going
to be as crazy this year? And like, what is it?
What is it that gets you going that's so crazy
that works? Ultimately, they they still were boom or bus.
Like I said, I think they overachieved, but I'm also
not They weren't one of the ten best defenses in
the league last year by pretty much any like Advanced
(32:11):
Metric fourteenth and DVO. They were playing well, and like
I said, like they weren't playing with great players either,
so that that's part of it.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Well, I think they've kind of built. They knew that
they needed to get the front structure right, that that's
what they needed. So they bring in like Kalay's Campbell
to work with a Walter Nolan right, and then you
have you have Josh Wett who now they have a
pass rusher, you have these hybrid, you still have a
Xaving Colin. So like what ended up when they got
there was it was like an island of misfit toys.
(32:40):
Is that they had all these like hybrids that they
didn't really know where they fit, and so what do
you do? You build a hybrid defense around that. What
they're doing really essentially is it's it's a build a
three four. So they have three safeties across the backside
with Buddha Baker really being the you know, the key
cog and all all of this, and then they can
(33:02):
blitz him. They can drop them to the boundary, they
can drop them to the field. They can go and
they can you know, run him, and they can run
that regular Tampa structure. They can run quarters, they can
run cover three. They can do almost anything out of
that three high structure, which is another trend that we're
seeing in the NFL. You know, we mentioned mentor on
here several times. But third down is typically when we're
(33:24):
starting to see these three high structures. But they play
it from base down, So first and second down they
are going to be in some sort of a five
men front. There's going to be one linebacker sitting there,
and you have no idea where Buddha Baker is going
to end up, and even what they showed in the preseason,
you have no idea what the final covered structure is
(33:44):
going to even look like. So we can drop him
down and you think, Okay, we know now what we're
getting into. But then the whole back end is like
an amba and it just like morphs into something that
you don't even know. And so I really think, yes,
there's a genius out of desperation, right, But I do
think that there's real structure here. It's not a gimmick.
(34:06):
They believe in it. And he's got one of the
you know, Gann has got one of the youngest staffs,
and I think it's refreshing that the younger generation. You're
seeing these younger dcs get shots early. They're not getting
shots in fifty and sixty when they're just like, I
ain't messing up because I just got this job. It's like, now, hey,
let's do some weird stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Nick Rallis is thirty two years old and he's had
that job what for two years?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
So yeah, he was thirty.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
And I will say there's also this growing trend and
I wonder if you could speak a little bit about
this too. Cody is a lot of these young especially
younger dcs that are coming up. And Chris Shule is
one of these guys in LA and Jesse Minter was
talking about how he studied. He studied so much offense
and he sat in so many offensive rooms. Kevin O'Connell
and Brandon Staley used to do this to each other.
They used to go into each other's meetings and try
(34:51):
to sitit it. But Nick Rallis, the first time I
ever met Nick Rallis was when he was in an
offensive coaching incubator, like studying offenses. And so I think
what they're seeing is how fast offenses are moving. How
you can't can you have to come up with a
defense and a plan that is going to be a
catch all for all kinds of rapidly moving and shifting
(35:13):
offensive cycles. Okay, the run game quote unquote is back
heavier personnel, using multiple tight ends, even a fullback. We
didn't talk about Seattle's run game, but Robbie outs like
starting to use the full back back in like these
throwback Shanahan which you say throwback now, but what was
it twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, But like these things are
coming back. So you have to have a defense where
(35:34):
it is going, to anticipate what offenses are doing and
where offenses are going. You have to understand that in
order to build what will be a catch all for
regardless of where you're at in the team building.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Well, I think too that this generation is starting with
my generation. I'm about turn forty here here in January.
My generation was probably that first generation in the early
two thousands that was like introduced to the spread. And
then so are coaching careers have been through the spread lens,
whether it was in college. And then we see that
spread explosion really in twenty eighteen when it broke football
(36:09):
at the NFL level, and these guys are used to like, hey,
we're already outmatched offensively, how can we figure this out?
So a lot of these guys are willing to do
some different things and think outside the box and then,
like you said, there's been a trend really within the
last five to ten years of offensive coaches going and
(36:30):
picking a really talented young defensive coach and bringing them
over and sitting in them in the office and having
them tell me, hey, how are they figure okay, how
are they matching this? What are the rules for this?
How can we take advantage of that? And so offenses
have accelerated, but they're also pulling that knowledge back and
bringing it back into the defensive room, and it's just
(36:50):
recycling and so that cat and mouse game is just
kind of continuing.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
There is I don't think a fear, but do you
think there are There are these things pieces out there
is like defense is making a comeback, that defense is ahead,
Like how A do you think that's remotely true at all?
And b Like along with what Jordan was saying in
terms of right now the trends on offense being back
to getting like a little heavier, a little more run heavy, Like,
(37:18):
what do you think defenses are gonna do this year
to help counter that?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Well, I just think historically the NFL goes through very
distinct cycles and these are predictable. We can see this.
You can go all the way back to the seventies
when Arnsbarker and the fifty three defense, this was basically
the birth of the three four. Then offense is advanced.
Then you have LT we have the move tied end
from Gibbs, so we have our h back and twelve
personnel packages come in, we have you know, you keep
(37:45):
going further down, and then now we get into where
defenses have essentially become a bunch of hybrid positionless players.
We talk about it all the time, it's been there,
but like we really truly are now the one thing
about football that will remain this name. So you talk
about will defense ever, you know, just dominate like it
did in the nineties when we were playing the Andanderthal
(38:07):
ball in three yards and a cloud of dust? But
I don't think it will.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
The spreads one, the NFL won't let it.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
No spread one. Yeah, passing one.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Passing one. Analytically we know it's more efficient than running
the running the ball. We we now understand how to
manipulate space. They know how to motions and and the
way that the rules are set up.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
With say if not, the NFL just changed the rules
right exactly exact. I'm not joking and that's obvious. They've
done it throughout the history.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Well, offense, Look, I'm a defensive guy and I can
just from from experience. People love offense, that's what puts.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
But I love defense.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
You know, I'm a glutton for punishment, So yes, I'm
a defensive coach by trade, so yes. But the offensively,
I think the way that this cycle always works is
that the defense comes back right, they figure it out,
and then the offense is forced to then do something
new and so I I think defensively, one of the
things we've mentioned it the quarters kind of waned last year,
(39:06):
but it didn't wane in the fact that people weren't
running it. It just came up and like more people
are running these. I call it targeted coverages. It's the
Fangio system where you're moving a cover two around, whether
it's to the nickel away. What you're building is backstops
and zone doubles. So I'm going to cap your best receiver.
(39:29):
But then I'm also if you want to run them
across the field because you don't want to run a vertical,
I'm going to create a backstop away from him. So
that's where these quarter structures comes in. And I think
that's one of the things that people don't understand about defense.
They just think two high shells either cover two or
it's quarters. And it's not like Fangio isn't a quarters guy,
but he transitioned into one. And why because what are
(39:51):
offenses doing right now? In the NFL? They're getting tighter
and tighter and tighter. One of the biggest things last
year was what's called a wave concept. So you essentially
run a vertical to the middle of the field and
then you take two deep crosses and you run them across.
It's the old yankee or the old cross country concept
that's been around for football forever. But they're adding an
(40:12):
extra guy, and so how are you going to defend that?
Speaker 4 (40:15):
Now?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
We got guys in quarter structures. Make sure that you
can have guys on both sides and they just tilt.
They just tilt, they can cross key it and so
they're picking it up. And so that's why I think
quarters will come back. I think man coverage has slowly
gone down, and then two man. Nobody runs two man anymore.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, and explain what two man is?
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Two safeties high man underneath what kills two men? Running quarterbacks?
What do we have on almost every single team a
quarterback that can scramble and so you don't. It's like
less than one percent.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
And also like that, it is interesting that the value
of like man cornerbacks who are that's the best thing
that they do feels which is weird, because that's that's
what you think about with cornerbacks, like their value has
gone down like those sorts of players I'm trying to
think of, who's a good example, like a Carlton Davis
is probably less valuable than he would have been, you know,
(41:05):
fifteen years ago.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
And I think part of it too is because these
coverages can morph around how routes are unfolding on the field,
that automatically actually increases the importance of cornerbacks who have
played in a match zone system or a system that
at least has pattern matched or a system that at
least which means that you are understanding where the route
(41:29):
is going to go. You're not playing a space on
the field like a zone would. Instead, you're playing where
you know the route is going to go. And that's
where I think this is different. That you're having defensive
players who can do more than ever, that are smarter
than ever that can fit. Have seen more football than
ever that can fit in these like ellipses around the
back portions of fields in accordance with where the offense
(41:52):
is trying to attack them. And I think that's why,
in part you saw a reaction and in part because
the nickels were so small, you saw a reaction to
teams doing the thing that I just said. Matthew Stafford said,
he told Sean McVay to do I don't know what
I'm seeing. Run the damn ball. Yeah, that's exactly why.
And that's exactly why you're seeing this spring out. You
only get maybe a year or two of this before
(42:13):
the next thing comes out, the next offense breaks, defense
thing comes.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Out, and waves happened so fast, like and I think.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
The increase the improvement of technology is a part of that.
Like we're talking about coaches that are sharing so many
things with each other now, where it used to be
like I carry my playbooks strapped to my body, you know,
into my house at night because I don't want someone
else taking it from me. Now everything's available to watch
and take. And these guys are are running these clinics
with each other. They're bringing college coaches up to run
(42:42):
clinics with them as offensive coaches, to sit in to
hear what they know, to pick their brains kind of
like what we're making Cody do for us here today.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
I know we appreciate it. Cody. Yeah, before we let
you go because we're wrapping up here.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
It's interesting, you know, you mentioned kind of like, Okay,
you got the five down line men, five up front,
and there's like one linebacker on the field, and that
is something I'm curious to hear your thoughts on just
linebackers right now. Not that they're an endangered species, but
it is really interesting to think, maybe more than any
position on defense, over the last twenty years, have evolved
(43:17):
and their importance has on one level minimized because there's
just less of them literally on the field that can
do everything. But man, it's important to have that one
guy for Jesse Minner to have that day on Henley,
that's the one linebacker on the field. So you watching
football and film like who do you love to watch
(43:37):
and maybe talk a little bit about how that position
has evolved and becomes so so difficult to find like
the right person to do that.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Well. I think a great example of where we are
in modern linebacker play is the commanders, because what you
have is a Bobby Wagner who is a traditional mic linebacker.
He is an a gap fitter. He's going to plug
the run. He can. He's good enough in coverage that
he can give you a little bit of space in
the middle of the field, but you don't necessarily want
him always guarding somebody. And then you have right next
(44:07):
to him as Frankie Luvu, who is he an edge
is he a linebacker? He can be whatever you need
him to be. You know he is staying in that.
You have a guy like Zach Bond, who essentially was
an old school Ted linebacker. Ted has a te in it,
meaning he just lined up on the tight end and
played essentially a glorified nine techniques, so he was outside
(44:28):
of the tight end and he was just a wall
builder for the defense. And then he comes to the
Eagles and Fangils moving him around like he was moving
Andrew Van Ginkel. And so I think what you see
with these off ball linebackers and really where we are
because of this hybridization of everything. You can't just be
a four down front anymore. You know, you have to
be able to get into odd fronts. You can't just
(44:51):
be a single high coverage team. You have to run
some of these two high structures. And I think what
you're seeing is you have to add value now as
a player, we're in an add value now, Like you
have to be able to be an off ball linebacker,
but then can you pass rush? Can you add value
or is your added value in the coverage so you
can run. You know, you have to find ways to
(45:12):
add value. And I think the linebacker position they're kind
of now two rooms. We have our kind of hybrid
guy that can go down and he can pass rush,
but then we also have our traditional linebackers that you
still need in the game because they still have to
fit the a gap.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:25):
I when I was on my training camp circuit, like
traveling around the camps, it was interesting. A coach that
I talked to described it as this giant like combating
math equation, right where if you already automatically know that
the way that offenses can play. Now you have a
running back who can work out of the passing game
and also run the ball. That's a plus two one
(45:45):
trait another trait two ads, it's a plus two. You
have tight ends who can block and be a mismatch
in the pass game. That's another plus two. You have
receivers who can block and also be a mismatch in
the pass game, that's another plus two. So if you're
not at least a plus two play at a skill
on offense, you are not going to be on the
field for as many downs. They're going to try to
take you off as much as possible. Conversely, on the
(46:07):
defensive side, if you cannot become a plus two player,
whether it's the positions you can play or the phases
of football that you can contribute in, you are not
going to be on the field at this point in football,
and you're just trying to match the opposite side's numbers advantage,
which is always the dance that happens when you're scheming
him game plan against people.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Unless you join the Raiders as a linebacker, who I
think Pete Carroll is just like lining up like not
plus two's just guys that they're old school from the
nineties and kind of bring it. No, No, that's hard,
you got me thinking, Johd Campbell, I mean, is that
is that plus one? And Zach Bond I think is
(46:47):
sort of a prototype now, which is crazy to think
about based on where he was a year ago at
this time, But like, how do you think those two
guys together, Like they're going to deploy those two What
can you do with two linebackers like that?
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Well, that's kind of one of the trends we're seeing
is that, Okay, we're a nickel base the defense, meaning
that we're gonna have five DB's on the field. Okay,
Traditionally that's with a four down line. Okay, the Penny front,
which is a five to one, which is what we
talked about with the Cardinals. That's kind of people are
starting to move away from it because those edges aren't
dynamic enough. And when I put five to one out there,
(47:22):
you know, like when our PENNI pegage is out there,
you know, here's a certain set of things that we
can do, and here's a certain set of things that
we can't. So it makes it often seasier. But if
I go a four down lineman and I'm in a
regular traditional nickel, but then I walk one of my
guys down, whether it's strong or weak. Now were and
now we're into a five min front, changes the blocking
changes the protections. Is he going to drop back out?
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Is he not?
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Are you gonna blitz and then drop them? Like, there's
a million different things that now variable. So if a
guy like you know McVeigh is going to run everything
through eleven personnel, but you know your your receivers, you know,
a fossil full back, Okay, well that's great less than
a half person right, So what if we did the
same thing on defense? And I think that's why you
were starting to see too. Like another trend is safety collection, right,
(48:09):
big Nickels back from a decade ago. It's back, We're
going to have three safeties on the field. So I
think that part of it. Now Fangio has two guys
that he can do that with and you don't know
where they're going to come from.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
It's also just humans are getting better at doing everything athletically.
I feel like that that's underrated. It's like my theory
that you know, almost every NFL game has a play
that's better than any play that happened in the seventies.
It's just like the humans are advancing. I mean, you
look at basketball, you look at tennis, you look at football.
A lot of the things that you just said about football,
(48:42):
like to me. You could say about basketball, you could
say about tennis. Where is everyone can now do everything
It used to just be like this is his style
play and it's positionless and it's offense defense just like
we're getting better.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
It's exciting. Cody.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
It was a pleasure to have you on. We gotta
do this again. My brain is it's expanding, it's going
to explode from everything I learned here on defense.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
And I love having you on. And we got to
make this flight worth it.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I mean, you came all the way out here for
a little old NFL Daily.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Go check out Substack.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
I can tell, yes, I can tell you're very pleased
with yourself when we are going to football practice.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Man, okay, you went to sight Ran Come on now,
like what you what do we doing?
Speaker 1 (49:23):
He told me that he came out for NFL Daily,
So I'm just taking there.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
You're the host of NFL Daily. Of course he said
that to you.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
I loved it, so yeah, make it count. Check out
Cody's substack match Quarters. Join the twenty thousand subscribers there
for match Quarters on substack, and he's got the Let's
Talk Ball podcast as well. It was a pleasure, Jordan.
You will be back with me next week. But the
next time you'll hear from me will be Sunday night. Yes,
(49:51):
the last of our weekly Sunday evening recaps with Nick Chuck.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I'm gonna miss it.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
I know. I like the vibe. They're good, good vibes
in that.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
I feel like you start off and you're like excited
for the preason, and then you're ready for it.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Then I don't know what it says about me, but this.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Year, I think I've actually like enjoyed the preseason more
than ever.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
So we'll be back Sunday evening. Football's back
Host
Gregg Rosenthal
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