April 4, 2024 • 37 mins
Sgt. Willie Jackson was an exemplary Soldier, someone who was looked up to and counted on until an accident changed the course of his life. With the help of his good friend, Lt. Col Joe Spangler, Jackson is trying to find new purpose in his changed world. In the second half we hear from experts on how to help other stay resilient despite their circumstances.
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(00:05):
You're listening to AGR Alabama Guard Radio, the official podcast at the Albama National
Guard. This is our first episode. We're very excited to be here.
I'm Staff Sergeant Jacob Hearn and withme today is Sergeant Meghan Terry. We
have the opportunity today to talk withLieutenant Colonel Joe Spangler and Sergeant Willie Jackson
about the accident that forever altered thecourse of Willie's life, and how the
bond between an officer and an enlistedsoldier transited rank, and how their friendship
(00:28):
helped in Willie's recovery. Colonel Spanglerand Sergeant Jackson's friendship started years ago in
Afghanistan. My name is Lieutenant ColonelJoe Spangler. I'm the Vice chief of
Staff of the Alabam Army National Guard. Known Jackson for quite a while.
(00:50):
He and I deployed together in twentyeleven to Afghanistan. I was a company
commander then at the Alpha Company ofthe one fifteenth Expeditionary Signal Battalion and Willy
was was a specialist. Right,Willy, you were a specialist then?
Right? Correct? Correct? Sowill and I had a unique bond even
as I was a captain then,and he was a specialist in the company,
(01:10):
and we took one hundred and thirtyseven soldiers over there. But Willy
was always a standout soldier in theranks. He was very unique in the
fact that he had unexplainable athletic ability. He could run, jump, just
a freak of an athlete. Andso we had that connection. We would
work out together, We challenge eachother in the gym, and we built
a special bond between that. AndWilly would always encourage others around him to
(01:34):
try to beat me, and Iwould try to beat him. And it
was just always very competitive in naturebetween he and I had. We had
a great deployment. I will saythis about willis his feet stink the worst
of any person I've ever I've eversmell, I've ever smelled. I went
to go visit him and he wasin a Ford operation base and had been
snowing, and his boots had beenwet on and off, on and off,
(01:56):
on and off for several days,and it was very austere conditions where
we're at. I was sleeping ina bunk. He was below me.
I was on the top bunk,and he had his socks out trying to
dry, kept me up all nightwithout a week without a bath, nothing
but snow. We had a specialbond. I've always thought Holly Evan he
was always a leader, even thoughhis rank didn't show, he was a
(02:17):
leader in the company. And I'vealways respected Willy because of that. Me
and Joe, I think we metway before deployment. You were a lieutenant,
if you can remember. I thinkwe were calling that summer camp like
early, and when I first gotin, you asked me to help you
make sure you could find the targetsbecause you had a wager going on.
You remember that, I'm sure Idid. Yeah, this was early.
(02:43):
You are a lieutenant then, andI remembered you from then, and then
you end up becoming our commander,and our relationship kind of got real strong.
Like you said, you were bigon PT. I liked that,
you know, a very competitive person. We got along really good. I
like the way you carried yourself oryour family, your kids. You were
just a great example of somebody Ilooked up to in the Guard. Anyway,
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over time, it just I don'tknow, our bond has got stronger
and stronger. Like you said,We've always kept in touch we've always kept
communication. We're in twenty eleven,my dad passed. You and Chaplin were
the two I talked to. Iremember you telling me, you know,
you'd be there for me with whateverhappens. Every since then, you've always
made sure you keep in touch,whether it's just a call and text or
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just hey, Willy, how youdoing. And it's always been that way.
It meant a lot to me,you know, because a lot of
people say to me, there foryou, but I hadn't heard from you,
know what I mean. That's playeda major part for me. Yeah,
I remember that conversation. I rememberwhen we got the Red Cross message.
We were a week from coming home. We were in Kenya. That
was That was a difficult conversation wehad. I remember, I know how
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close you and your dad were.Me and the chaplain. We came and
got you and asked you to stepoff of the side and we went inside
that bunker. Yep, that wasa rough day, it was. I
mean, just through experiences like that, I think we grew stronger. Even
once I've became a stargan. Youknow, you've always pushed me for to
do things and step outside the boxand you know, be a leader.
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I guess you've just seen some qualitiesin me. You've always pushed me to
be a better person than to bettermy career far especially in the Guard.
You've been a great example to me. I don't know about what anybody else
would say, only discrepancies. Ihave them late drills we were having for
a couple of years with other thanthat, everything was great well. I
also have a son that's in theGuard that deployed in twenty seventeen. I
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went to Willy throughout the deployment.If I've got an NCO that I wanted
to be and trust my son withand Willing I had the conversation look after,
look after, take care of meand so that's the kind of guy
we're talking about that you want yourson to be to follow after. So
that's the type of Bondie and Ihave. After their deployment in Afghanistan,
this friendship between an officer and anenlisted soldier was about to take a huge
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turn. Colonels Spangler could not havebeen prepared for the news he was about
to receive. I'm at the StateHeadquarters back now as the one fifteenth Italian
Commander. Ebruary twenty twenty two.That right, Willie right Everbybuary nineteen Everbruary
nineteenth, twenty twenty two, Igot a phone call. Ye, they
said, you hear what happened withhim? And that's when I got That's
when I got that Willie had hadit. Next day, this Saturday,
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I was on ride. I wasriding my razor. Was in West Point,
Tennessee, riding trails, climbing thehill that I've always did. I
mean, we go rides usually everyother weekend or so. So I climbed
this hill several times. Pulling thehill, got to the top, my
razor flipped. My buddies had cameover and pushed my razor back over there.
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I was upside down. They pushedmy razor back over. When they
flipped me back over, They're like, you know, cut the razor off.
And I was like, man,I can't move. They cut it
off. They're like, what's What'swhat's going on? I'm like, I
don't know. I can't move.I was like, well, maybe you
just got a stinger or hoping.I'm like, man, I played football
my life. I know what thestinger feels like if I can't move,
you know. So they start touchingme. They're like, can you feel
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this? I'm like no, Like, what's going on? I don't know.
They meant fighting me to Vanderbilt.I get the Vandy. It was
a weird experience because you know,I'm on a stretcher. They had me
in a neck brace, so allI can see is what's above me,
(06:28):
and it's just I'm just seeing lightsand doctors going everywhere, and they put
me in I see you, Andthe only question I asked I was like,
am I paralyzed? My doctor camein and he just told me it's
too early to say what's going on. Let's let's uh, let's examine and
see for sure. So I wasI sitting I see you for two days.
I guess my servant. Whatever happened, they kept postponing my surgery.
(06:51):
So I sat there for two daysand as long as two days of my
life, just not knowing what's what? Will I want walk again? We'll
you know. Just a thousand thoughtswent through my head. Finally had my
surgery. I come out. Theprognosis was I pinched my spinal cord int
my C six and it was incomplete. So what that means when the spinal
(07:15):
cord injury is incomplete. That meansyou do have sensation below your injury level,
so there's possibilities for your nerves toregenerate. I was positive about that.
My doctors kept telling me, youknow, trying to get into the
Shepherd Center, it's a very goodspinal cord rehab. We contact Shepherd Center,
they came, evaluated me, Igot accepted. I was really excited.
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So I'm like, okay, it'sgonna be great. Through social media
Facebook, my story got around alot of people and ended up meeting one
of my mentors. He had hada car accident and at the same injury
level C six. He walked inand talked to him and I'm like,
man, He's like, yeah,I've been there. It took him about
(08:01):
eighteen months and he I mean,he was back up walking. So I
was like, oh, yeah,I got this. So you know,
they told me, just go torehab, do your therapy, do your
part, and you know the riskwill happened. Well. WILLI was at
the Shepherd Center. He stuck digilentlyto his PT plan. He put in
the time in the work, butthis situation was really difficult for him because
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during COVID. The protocols did notallow any visitors to come see Willie besides
his sister, who was his solecaretaker at the time. So when Willie
found out that Joe Spangler was comingto see him, he was excited,
but also was left wondering how didhe even get in here. I'd call
him one day and I could tellhim his voice that he wasn't okay.
WILLI was saying, he was okay, he's doing good, He's got this,
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but his voice was not saying thesame. Will He also had a
relationship at that time. Through hisinjury circumstances, that relationship kind of dissolved.
That was also a battle he wasgoing through. Not only did he
lose his physical ability, but healso lost someone that he here deeply for.
So he was in a lonely spot. Uh and I and it was
the only one option I had togo see. So I called him.
(09:05):
They were still in COVID protocol Likehe said he I had asked him,
has anybody come to see you?And they said they won't let anybody.
That A couple of people had askedand they told him no nobody. So
I changed my tactic. I normallywould not take this approach. But I
knew that the asking approach would notwork, so I called. I used
my rank in my name, andI told him I was a major at
(09:26):
the time. I think this isMajor Spangler. You've got one of my
soldiers in your facility. I amcoming to see him. I just need
to know when would be a goodtime for that. And the first person
said, oh, sir, yes, this you know you know you're not
authorized to do that. It wouldtake my supervisor to even consider that.
I said, okay, well,get him on the phone, so went
on hold. When supervisor supervisor hadthe same story, I gave him the
(09:46):
same spell, same response. Okay, well, I'll hope get your supervisor.
The last person I talked to.They said, Sir, I understand,
I said, I said, listen, me and my soldier we went
through a hard time in Afghanistan.He had my back then, he's going
through a hard time right now.I've got his back. I'm coming,
Sir, that's going to take thehospital administrator. This is the only person
that can approve this. I said, okay, put him on the phone.
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So they kept me on hold forabout ten minutes. I thought they
were not going to come back.I thought they were just going to keep
me on hold till I hung up. They came back and said they approved,
great, When should I come?Will you remember the first thing I
told you when I walked in.I can't remember. I can't remember,
sir, I'm not going to treathim with kid gloves. I talked to
him straight on the only way Iknow how to do it. And I
walked into there. He was sittingin his wheelchair, and I told him,
(10:28):
soldier, I'm a commissioned officer.When I walk in the room,
you're supposed to stand up. Yousupposed to stand up, get on your
feet, soldiers. And we justhad a great conversation. Remember his nurses
came in after we talked for awhile, They said, who do you
know? How did you get inhere? They said, you must know
somebody here at this hospital that youpulled some strings. Not always what you
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know is who you know? Isaid, I don't know anybody up here.
They said, we don't believe that. They said who do you know?
It just kept asking me who doI know? Everyone? I told
him, really what he's saying?I told him, I said, I
don't know anybody at this hospital.But here's what I do know, I
know Jesus Christ, and Jesus sentme on a mission to talk to us.
That's what I did. And meand me and Willy went into a
conversation about purpose in life. Andhe's got to find a new purpose,
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you know, he's got to learnnew skills that there are there is a
plan for his life and what hethought was his plan may not be the
plan. And we just had along conversation about saying motivated to stay positive,
look for things that he can do, not focus on the things that
he can't do. That just kindof solidified our relationship. That's that's when
it went from Major Spangler and SartinJackson to William Joe. It's a great
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visit. We talked about a lot, shared a lot, but that there
too is a moment that stood outto me. He was serious about our
friendship and my well being. Hepromised some kids brought me a kindle.
You know, I could read books. Give me a book to read.
Disciplines of a Godly Man, Disciplinesof a God and Man. I was
about to say seven disciplines, butyeah, disciplines of a God of man.
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What else was it you brought me. I was supposed to be learning
the tune, but I haven't didthat yet. I'm gonna have to get
on it and keep my mind occupied. It's really stuck to his plan,
you say, digitalant and his pet. He kept his mind occupied with reading,
being trying to be social, orhe could. When he told us
the story, he was coming upto his two year mark of his PET
plan, which was going to bethe next milestone in his recovery. At
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this time, I realized, I'mcoming up on my two year mark,
which in four days will be twoyears. I called Joe and we talked,
and I just told him I hadhit a low spot. I just
felt like I had worked r andwas focused, and I felt like I
was a decent human being, youknow. And I was just wondering,
like, well, you know,why me, Like why did this happen
to me? Why am I stucklike this? I just felt like,
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what am I? What can Ido? I'm a quadriplegic. I have
little hand movement, but pretty muchI'm dependent on everything. Someone has to
bathe me, someone has to preparemy food, pretty much do everything for
me. I just kind of feltlike what am I here for? What
can I do? Me and Joehad to talk and just tell me,
just ask God, there's a purposefor everything, just asking what is your
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purpose? What is your plan forme? I remember even when he was
at Shepherd and he talked to me, he said he could see me being
able to speak about my injury helpingpeople. I do realize, you know,
that may be something that I cando. About three or four months
ago, as a guy from ourarea had a car incident. He's paralyzed
as well, so I've been kindof mentoring him and I talked here from
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time to time. Crazy when whenpeople see things and you ask what you're
playing in purpose and it kind ofjust comes to you. I know,
Joe asked to present me to tospeak here and kind of tell my story.
So everything's falling into place and whereit needs to be. It's been
a rough time, a lot ofups and down. It's been some mornings
I wake up I just that's kindof have to pet myself up, like
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you know, it's another day.But we gotta fight, we gotta keep
going even through times. I thinkmy biggest help is my family and support
me a lot. Fiance pushes me, She supports me, she encourages me.
He can usually tell when I'm down, so she kind of goes an
extra mile of picking me back up. My kids really motivate me. Friends
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support like Joe. I have alot of friends back home as well,
then call and check on me fromtime to time. It's been a big
help for me as well. It'sa different lifestyle. I've just kind of
got into dealing with my mental healthmyself. Just started talking to a psychiatrist,
getting to the point where I'm acceptingmy injury, accepting where I'm at,
and changing my expectations of what Iwill be able to do. A
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lot easier to say than done.Still working on it day to day.
Two years in, it seems likea long time. I've talked to I've
got a lot of support groups,so I've talked to people that's been in
a chair, you know, fifteentwenty years. It takes time. It's
kind of like I'm a newborn baby. So I'm still to this day learning
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I can and can't do, Stilllearning acts of getting independencies. I'm still
every day learning new ways of life. So I haven't figured it out yet.
And he's seeking help. That's importantthat he's not going into isolations or
the support groups, and that's that'sa big thing. And first I was
kind of just keeping everything into myself, trying to just deal with it and
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being a man, you know,not wanting to express my feelings. I've
never had any history of you know, depression or mental health stuff, so
I didn't know so new to me. I realized that it is good to
have an outlet of you know,be able to express yourself, have people
to talk to that's been in yoursituation or that's dealing with the situation.
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It just helps to even just tohave people to relate to. Typically,
I don't see people in a chairthat's like me. So when I do
get in my support groups and talkto people, it makes me feel,
you know, good that I'm notthe only one in the world that's sitting
in a chair, you know whatI mean. Thank you both so much
for taking the time to open up, be vulnerable and to share this incredible
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story. I mean, Steph Stardenharn, what an amazing journey between an officer
and someone who's enlisted. Yeah,you know one. I think it's a
mark of a great leader to stepup for their soldiers like this, even
when they're not in their command anymore, even when they're even not in the
army anymore. I think it's areally motivational story from Willie's side too,
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that even after two years of allthis hard work and having these peaks and
valleys in his journey, that heis still staying motivated and looking to the
next steps on how he can redefinehimself and improve himself. You're so right,
and that resiliency is something that we'retold about a lot in the military
and through various trainings, but whenit actually comes to the time where you
(16:48):
put that into practice, it's completelydifferent. So I think it'd be really
awesome if we brought in our friendsDarius White, who's the suicide Prevention coordinator,
and then also Chaplain Martin to kindof fill us in more on how
we can improve our resiliency and whatthat actually looks like in the day to
day lives of us in the Guardor anyone in the military. We'd really
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like to know what resiliency means toeach of you. And Chaplain Martin being
a chaplain for so many years,I'm sure you've dealt with different scenarios in
one form or another regarding resiliency,could you explain to us in your experience
what that looks like for you forme to be resilient. I always think
about the rubber band, that it'sstretchable, flexible, and within our military
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context, you have to be flexible, especially when you look at everything from
missions that's driven and sometime from thesoldier's perspective, you know, when you're
hit with life because most of uswear to hat civilian side as well as
army side more you know, airguard or what have you. Then you
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have to put in place you knowhow what are my triggers that helps me
or what triggers me, but alsoknowing and understanding what brings me back to
the place, so being able tobe productive and carry the mission forward.
So I see that as being flexibleand being able to you know, move
in different locations and being able tonavigate the waters to you know, to
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be resilient. Do you feel like, with your position and your role and
the different lives of soldiers that youpersonally had to adapt some kind of idea
of how to be resilient as well? I do, I think so,
I think when talking with soldiers thatyou have to see one where where they
are, and I try to meetthem where they are because I like to
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listen first and see, you know, what is it that they are going
through, what is it that theymay be experiencing, And then from there,
not that I'm fixing anything, butjust to hear them out and maybe
to be able to navigate them withwe know, whatever situation that they are
facing, because most of the time, what I've learned is that soldiers will
work their own problems out if yousee and listen to what they're saying,
(19:08):
because sometimes they just want to beheard. And Darius can what's your position
here at JFHQ. Okay, yeah, I do suicide previnsion for the state
of Alabama. Yeah, you know, in the civilian world, suicide it
also is, you know, anissue, but I don't think that it
has been highlighted the way it's beenhighlighted here in the Army National Guard.
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But the numbers are significantly higher herein the Guard as well. And just
like he said, or that's kindof like juggling the difficulties of both sides,
both in the military and the civilianworld. So just from the outside
looking in like, that's what Ican see. You have to be the
nine to five person on Monday throughFriday, and then on the weekend,
you know, you get to getto play. I don't want to say
anything offensive, I was gonna sayplay dress up. Sorry, but on
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the weekend, you know, yougot you get to go out into the
field and actually do the work thatmilitary service members actually do. And so
juggling that I think can be veryvery difficult. It's not like active where
like everyone is on the same installationand you see the same people seven days
a week. You know exactly whereto go. You can go to the
chaplin here or doctor here, youcan go to the Beable Health here.
But in a civilian or in theArmy National Guard, once you guys leave
(20:11):
the weekend, then you have tolike function as just a regular person.
And honestly, as a regular person, it's also very difficult to maneuver this.
So I actually had a question withyou. You bring it up like
the civilian and military side, soyou know, I know army wide suicide
is a huge issue. I knowit's also a huge issue you know really
around the world, but especially withthe military. But you know, if
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you're just focusing on Alabama, youknow, is this something that we're still
really struggling with in the state,And if so, what are some of
the programs in place or some ofthe things we are doing to sort of
mitigate and get help for people whoneed it. Okay, so it's really
difficult for me to compare, youknow, like how big of it is
actually an issue here in the stateof Alabama versus you know, Georgia or
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Tennessee or whatever. But what Iwill say is like, since we are
in down south Bible Belt region,you know, so you know, God
and church is really really big,but also we kind of have this stigma
of like getting help that like otherpeople will think less of you. And
I think that's something that maybe weas Southerners, you know, have adapted
in our culture, so the needto be resilient at all times, and
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like there's really no space for youto, like, I don't know,
like mess up or be a humanat any point without getting overtaken by life,
if you will. Are you tryingto say that resiliency is something that
comes and goes, like it flexeswith you, like it changes. That's
actually an interesting perspective I've never reallythought of it like that, but as
Chaplin Marin was explaining like his resilienceand peace, I was thinking of,
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like, how did I gain resiliance? Most of it was through like my
childhood and the way my parents broughtme up. But I've also kind of
seen how like how similar I amwith you know, our generation is kind
of like around thirty. I'm notto but young people who are around like
twenty, they grew up almost thesame but also very very different. I
have learned that they're the way thatthey cope with life is a whole different
than us. I know, ourparents were all tough as nails, and
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us the people around, like themillennial age, we think we're toughest nails,
but we're starting to realize we're not. But it's okay. With what
each of you guys do, doyou find yourself talking to different people that
are being almost two individually resilient wherethey're not seeking that help, or do
you find that more people are activelyseeking help for these issues that they're going
(22:25):
through and understanding they need someone elseto help them in that process. So
I think over the years, exceptfifteen years in the Guard and what I've
seen the change as far as howwe even use the verbic just to go
back and touch your own you askDarius about resiliency, does it come?
Does it go? So I thoughtabout resiliency can be community, you know
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those when you look at it frommilitary context, those you know, try
our left to our right, thatwe know we can count on each month
or even outside once we're finished withdrill. You know a my section leader
or my you know, my companycommander and my battalion commander. It's a
major and so it it's more thanjust being individualistic, I believe. But
I think we have a concept thatyou have to be resilient, you know,
(23:12):
by yourself, instead of having thatcommunity of family that's there with you.
Because we all go through tough daysand as there you said, you
know, we build resiliency through ourstruggles or through you know, the negative
times. But also I think throughyou know, the good times, you
can you can gain resiliency also fromthat particular piece. So can we help
(23:34):
each other then with resiliency with thatin mind, I think so because everybody,
we all you know, just sittinghere, you know, we come
from different backgrounds. So my experience, my the things that I've gone through,
I think, can can you knowhelp you you know, start to
learn here and vice versa. Youknow what you guys have gone through and
(23:55):
gained, I think it can helpme as well. So we have to
lean on each other and not lookat it as hey, I'm weak or
this is you know, being weak, But is that Hey, I need
some help and I need to turnto someone you know for that help or
to just give me some guidance tohelp me see my way through. Yeah.
Sorry, I want to add onto what I think what the Peace
(24:17):
Study said is really big about.Well, just because just because I haven't
went through something, that doesn't meanthat I can't learn resilience through him.
Right. So one of the Ithink the most effective methods of what we
briefing or education, right, peersupport, I guess talking about this issue
is open testimony. And so inmy experience, you know, I'm a
(24:38):
I'm a pretty young guy, getup in front of a group of maybe
one hundred. The age is varyfrom all different, you know, like
you have some people who are freshin eighteen, some people who are on
the way out fifty nine. Idon't really know what the age is,
right, They will yeah, Butwhat I will say is I have seen
or heard various different responses, youknow, like based on the age group,
(25:00):
and you'll be surprised of like howmany young people will be willing to
like speak up and talk about theirproblems after they see an older individuals.
Right. You notice I said older, an older individual you know who who's
maybe went through something like them,or maybe is around the same age as
their parents, right, mother andfather figure, someone that you trust who
(25:21):
has been in the uniform longer thanI have, and you see that they
have went through regular struggles just thesame way as I have. And honestly,
that is one of the things thathelps these younger soldiers speak out well
like yeah, maybe I have beenstruggling with this, But I think the
more effective piece is when they say, hey, I have struggled with mental
health, but I got help andI was afraid to get help. That
is what encourages like the rest ofeveryone to speak up and be like,
(25:45):
well, you know, yeah Iexperienced this too, and I experienced this
too. So learning Brailians from eachother, yeah, Chaplin said something with
you about community with you talking aboutlearning resilience from each other, just from
a personal point. Something I've I'velearned from some leaders in the past is
to try to identify when people arestruggling. That's a good point to step
in as a leader. And thething they the thing I had a leader
at ALC tell me one time waswe don't have soldier issues in the army.
(26:07):
We have people issues. We knowhow to be soldiers. You just
have to put on the right uniform, be at the right place, right
time, to your PT. Fourthings super easy. If you're not accomplishing
those things, it's probably not becausethey're a bad soldier. It's probably because
they're having a purse of people issue. You know, there's something going on
outside of the army. There's somethinggoing on outside of the military that's causing
them not to hit those really simplestepping stones. But I think the issue
(26:32):
is knowing how to help once wesee that, because it's all too easy
to say, well, they're latefor drill again. He's always like that,
you know. So it was kindof like what you're iying those identify
an issue and then looking at itfrom this lens of trying to, I
guess, really provide a help tosomebody who might need it or you know,
because it's it's a snowball effect.You start ignoring this guy because he's
(26:55):
not showing a drill on time,or you know, they're always ate up,
or they're not passing PT because they'redrinking all the time, doing whatever,
and we sort of write it off. And that's part of it,
is building those skills to talk tothose individuals and really learn how to help.
And I think that's something a lotof people struggling struggle with, is
knowing how to help. And Iwould, I feel like, be great
advice, especially from you and youlike, what are some things that you
(27:18):
do to identify when a soldier reallyneeds that extra like when you really need
to look into care for a soldier, even if it's just minor. How
do you how do you approach thatsubject? So one for me, I
like, I like to talk,So I try to engage every soldier,
whether it's if you want to saysmall talk, you know, hey,
you know what are you doing?You know what you are? You in
school? Most you know, mostof the younger soldiers, like you're saying,
(27:41):
summer in schools or or whether itbe college or tech school, and
just to you know, I tryto read people as far as you know,
body language, facial expression, andjust having that connection with them.
And that's one of the unique thingsI think I love about chaplaincy is that
being part of the staff, butalso special staff that I can you know,
(28:04):
I can get in and intermingle withsoldiers as well as talk to leadership,
you know, to see, hey, you know, is anything going
on with with any of your soldiersthat you see that I need to be
aware of. That's that's one something, especially with you know, platoon leaders
or section leaders. I'll ask,hey, anything that I need to be
aware of, you know, fromyour soldiers, because nine times out of
(28:25):
ten they know their soldiers, youknow, better than I do because of
the chance that I get to seethem. So with that, I think
just connecting you know what is ableto allow me to be able to just
kind of see things that maybe youknow, others may not may not see.
It almost sounds like from what bothof you guys are saying, it's
like there's this path that resiliency goesdown, so you're kind of having to
(28:48):
lay these stepping stones along the waybetween other people getting involved and yourself also
being resilient. And there's a lotof these different things that we could be
doing and that we can improve onpossibly. So it's really awesome to hear
you say that, because, justlike startin, Hearne was saying, if
there's someone who is being personally resilient, possibly one of us could help them
(29:10):
to be resilient in a more efficientway to help them the long run.
I like the piece that he saidthough about making that personal connection. Now
I'm not in the military, butwhat I have been doing is observing military
culture very very closely, like sincea kid, and just being here in
an Army National Guard, I cansee how much it means for a soldier
to actually like trust their leadership,you know. I think that's one of
the most difficult things when when itcomes to addressing these young soldiers. It's
(29:36):
like, even if I did havethese problems, right like, even if
I was contemplating killing myself, orI'm homeless, or I can't really feed
my family or myself, what wouldgive me a reason to like tell any
of you all? You know?So I asked myself that question. Then
I try to put myself in themind of the soldier. I know,
it's a whole lot of mental workbut like, how would I feel if
I was them? And like wouldI trust their leader, you know,
to come and disclose personal senseive information? Do I even think it would be?
(29:59):
Like what benefit? But I getso creating that trust O soldiers know,
like regardss of the rank, likethis is a person what I can
go through with my issue And Ithink that's one of the things that helps
me just do what I do.Like I don't I don't see rank honestly
at all. I see it outof formality and respect, but I see
everyone's eyes, you know, likeand that kind of like lets me know
exactly where the head is out.So yeah, but you know, you
(30:21):
guys can speak to this. Uh. Sometimes people do see, especially from
the chaplain's perspective, they see rank. And the good thing about the Unit
Ministry team is that not only isit an officer that's a chaplain, but
also the Religious Affairs Specialists or NCObecause most of the time, if the
enlisted soldier is not comfortable coming tome, then they'll go to the religious
(30:45):
affairs specialists and share what they havegoing on. And of course you know
our you know our here and youknow we move from there. But it
it is about building trust because whensoldiers know, even family members, when
they know that they can trust you, then you know you you kind of
have the keys to the kingdom,so to speak, that you're able,
you know, to help and assistin so many ways. Now, one
(31:07):
thing that that I have noticed specificallyin the military, right when you take
one on one time, you know, for a soldier, it makes that
soldier want to come work for youharder. It's not like one of those
Okay, I respect them, sonow I can, I can, I
can get over right, it's Irespect them. So like I'm gonna do
everything I can to make sure thatlike this person is taking care of it
and I'm doing my job so thatI don't make this person look bad.
(31:30):
Right, that's true. Not judging. Let me throw that out there because
I think sometimes and maybe you guyscan help me. Well, have you
ever felt that if you brought somethingto the chaplain or maybe one of your
soldiers, that the chaplain would judge? So I have two personal stories real
quick to share. So so oneis this is not a plug for the
National Guard. I mean, youknow, as the National Guard, but
(31:53):
I do think there is at leasteven the active guard, you get to
go home and get take off yourfarm. I mean, yeah, you
get to take the uniform at theoff at the end of the day.
With active duty as well, buta lot of active duty guys live on
post spread around the world, Soat least with the Guard when they say
like a guard family, I havemy leadership, and I feel like much
closer to any guard leadership than Iever really have active duty because I do
(32:15):
see them out of uniform sometimes,you know, and that can help sort
of bridge that to trust, tohave a conversation with them, you know.
I'll say, you know, theunit I've been in forever, we've
always you know, if it's afterhours or on a first time basis,
you know, and that has reallyhelped when there have been issues in the
unit. Now, from a negativestandpoint, having been in active duty environments
(32:36):
and just all over the guard aswell, I think it's less about trust
of an individual, but it's sobig that sometimes it can fail you.
You know, I've used mental healthservice before to varying degrees of well,
if you tried not being sad orhey, these are some actual steps you
can take to talking to chaplains whoyou know are on this big active duty
(32:57):
base like downrange, who are talkinga guy every day and you can just
tell they're exhausted to you know,people who are at home, who you
know, are a little bit morepersonable, a little bit more charismatic.
And I feel like that is notnecessarily a failure, but like an issue.
And that's why I think like it'sa larger problem where hey, it's
great we have mental health services,it's great we have chaplains, but also
(33:17):
like we need soldiers and leaders tostep up to fill in those gaps when
there are like cracks in the system, right, so like create that almost
like consistency, because if a soldieris seeking out that help it, they
would probably be more inclined to talkto a leader that they trusted than there
someone they see a lot of thetime and have rapport built with. That's
(33:38):
what I say why I like thefamily piece of the Guard because I haven't
had to seek out a lot ofmental health services or you know chaplains in
the Guard because you know, hey, at the end of the day,
Sergeant Brown is now Jamie, andI can talk to Jamie on a one
to one level about issues I'm having, right, So and that was one
reason why I joined Guard. Ifelt it was or it had a family
(33:59):
feel to it, so that was, you know, something I was looking
for. I always said I'd nevergo into military, and based off of
what I saw on television, youknow, you you would see the drill
sergeant, you know, yelling andscreaming at soldiers. But that's just one
piece. So actually, when theLord put it on my heart to come
in, it was O nine andthey were talking about the different names of
(34:21):
PTSD, how those names have changedfrom war to war, and that was
probably at the height of both warsthat was going on during the time,
and that day I saw myself helpingfamilies and helping soldiers and that stayed on
my heart for two months. Iwas like okay and went, yeah,
it wasn't that easy, but yes, yes I did. You know.
(34:43):
I I love what I do,especially being a chaplain, because it brings
a sense of joy and satisfaction knowingthat, you know, I'm able to
help in whatever capacity, you know, with the soldier, with the family
member, and also the feeling thathey, I'm in a safe space.
You know, I can I canget in this space and not feel that
(35:06):
you know the hammer is coming downon me. You know, like what
you're saying, especially if we're notthere. You know from from the chaplain's
perspective that you can go to youknow, your leadership, and you can
talk to Sargeant Brown if I canuse you know what you just shared,
because you guys are just that closed. There's a there's a tight bond and
knit that's there. And you knowwhen you look at me as a chaplain,
(35:28):
you know most of our chaplains arepastors, you know, within within
the local community. So you youhave that continuity where you see him not
as chaplain Martin or you know whomever, but you see him as you know
John or you know James, whoeverhe is outside up outside of the guard.
Yeah. I think that is It'sa great thing that we have,
(35:49):
really because I feel like someone likeyou who did ministry before and about this
calling to join, it's almost likeyou yourself are a presence where you're showing
other people that you are what yousay that you are and creating that environment.
I think that even in this conversationme personally, I think learned even
more about resiliency than I did beforeand hearing the things that you each are
saying about how we can be therefor soldiers, how we can utilize different
(36:14):
resources. It's a great tool thatyou know, Sartin hern and I can
take back and help our future soldierscoming in. Thank you for listening to
the first episode of AGR. Isa really exciting journey to get here.
We've been working on this for along time now. We want to thank
everybody who spoke with us in today'sepisode and also give a special thanks to
Staff Sergeant Thomas Furlough for composing anddesigning the intro and outro music for this
(36:36):
episode. This podcast would not bemade possible if it wasn't for the amazing
public affairs team with the Alabama NationalGuard, So thank you so much.
For more information or updates on ourshow, check out our social media.
Alabama National Guard and Sergeant her AndI just want to say a huge thank
you to you for sticking it out, taking the time with me day in
and day out to make this happen. But I do have to say,
(36:57):
ifs think the worse of any personI've ever ever, I've ever smiled with
you, h m hm
You're listening to AGR Alabama Guard Radio, the official podcast at the Albama National
Guard. This is our first episode. We're very excited to be here.
I'm Staff Sergeant Jacob Hearn and withme today is Sergeant Meghan Terry. We
have the opportunity today to talk withLieutenant Colonel Joe Spangler and Sergeant Willie Jackson
about the accident that forever altered thecourse of Willie's life, and how the
bond between an officer and an enlistedsoldier transited rank, and how their friendship
(00:28):
helped in Willie's recovery. Colonel Spanglerand Sergeant Jackson's friendship started years ago in
Afghanistan. My name is Lieutenant ColonelJoe Spangler. I'm the Vice chief of
Staff of the Alabam Army National Guard. Known Jackson for quite a while.
(00:50):
He and I deployed together in twentyeleven to Afghanistan. I was a company
commander then at the Alpha Company ofthe one fifteenth Expeditionary Signal Battalion and Willy
was was a specialist. Right,Willy, you were a specialist then?
Right? Correct? Correct? Sowill and I had a unique bond even
as I was a captain then,and he was a specialist in the company,
(01:10):
and we took one hundred and thirtyseven soldiers over there. But Willy
was always a standout soldier in theranks. He was very unique in the
fact that he had unexplainable athletic ability. He could run, jump, just
a freak of an athlete. Andso we had that connection. We would
work out together, We challenge eachother in the gym, and we built
a special bond between that. AndWilly would always encourage others around him to
(01:34):
try to beat me, and Iwould try to beat him. And it
was just always very competitive in naturebetween he and I had. We had
a great deployment. I will saythis about willis his feet stink the worst
of any person I've ever I've eversmell, I've ever smelled. I went
to go visit him and he wasin a Ford operation base and had been
snowing, and his boots had beenwet on and off, on and off,
(01:56):
on and off for several days,and it was very austere conditions where
we're at. I was sleeping ina bunk. He was below me.
I was on the top bunk,and he had his socks out trying to
dry, kept me up all nightwithout a week without a bath, nothing
but snow. We had a specialbond. I've always thought Holly Evan he
was always a leader, even thoughhis rank didn't show, he was a
(02:17):
leader in the company. And I'vealways respected Willy because of that. Me
and Joe, I think we metway before deployment. You were a lieutenant,
if you can remember. I thinkwe were calling that summer camp like
early, and when I first gotin, you asked me to help you
make sure you could find the targetsbecause you had a wager going on.
You remember that, I'm sure Idid. Yeah, this was early.
(02:43):
You are a lieutenant then, andI remembered you from then, and then
you end up becoming our commander,and our relationship kind of got real strong.
Like you said, you were bigon PT. I liked that,
you know, a very competitive person. We got along really good. I
like the way you carried yourself oryour family, your kids. You were
just a great example of somebody Ilooked up to in the Guard. Anyway,
(03:06):
over time, it just I don'tknow, our bond has got stronger
and stronger. Like you said,We've always kept in touch we've always kept
communication. We're in twenty eleven,my dad passed. You and Chaplin were
the two I talked to. Iremember you telling me, you know,
you'd be there for me with whateverhappens. Every since then, you've always
made sure you keep in touch,whether it's just a call and text or
(03:29):
just hey, Willy, how youdoing. And it's always been that way.
It meant a lot to me,you know, because a lot of
people say to me, there foryou, but I hadn't heard from you,
know what I mean. That's playeda major part for me. Yeah,
I remember that conversation. I rememberwhen we got the Red Cross message.
We were a week from coming home. We were in Kenya. That
was That was a difficult conversation wehad. I remember, I know how
(03:50):
close you and your dad were.Me and the chaplain. We came and
got you and asked you to stepoff of the side and we went inside
that bunker. Yep, that wasa rough day, it was. I
mean, just through experiences like that, I think we grew stronger. Even
once I've became a stargan. Youknow, you've always pushed me for to
do things and step outside the boxand you know, be a leader.
(04:11):
I guess you've just seen some qualitiesin me. You've always pushed me to
be a better person than to bettermy career far especially in the Guard.
You've been a great example to me. I don't know about what anybody else
would say, only discrepancies. Ihave them late drills we were having for
a couple of years with other thanthat, everything was great well. I
also have a son that's in theGuard that deployed in twenty seventeen. I
(04:35):
went to Willy throughout the deployment.If I've got an NCO that I wanted
to be and trust my son withand Willing I had the conversation look after,
look after, take care of meand so that's the kind of guy
we're talking about that you want yourson to be to follow after. So
that's the type of Bondie and Ihave. After their deployment in Afghanistan,
this friendship between an officer and anenlisted soldier was about to take a huge
(04:59):
turn. Colonels Spangler could not havebeen prepared for the news he was about
to receive. I'm at the StateHeadquarters back now as the one fifteenth Italian
Commander. Ebruary twenty twenty two.That right, Willie right Everbybuary nineteen Everbruary
nineteenth, twenty twenty two, Igot a phone call. Ye, they
said, you hear what happened withhim? And that's when I got That's
when I got that Willie had hadit. Next day, this Saturday,
(05:20):
I was on ride. I wasriding my razor. Was in West Point,
Tennessee, riding trails, climbing thehill that I've always did. I
mean, we go rides usually everyother weekend or so. So I climbed
this hill several times. Pulling thehill, got to the top, my
razor flipped. My buddies had cameover and pushed my razor back over there.
(05:42):
I was upside down. They pushedmy razor back over. When they
flipped me back over, They're like, you know, cut the razor off.
And I was like, man,I can't move. They cut it
off. They're like, what's What'swhat's going on? I'm like, I
don't know. I can't move.I was like, well, maybe you
just got a stinger or hoping.I'm like, man, I played football
my life. I know what thestinger feels like if I can't move,
you know. So they start touchingme. They're like, can you feel
(06:06):
this? I'm like no, Like, what's going on? I don't know.
They meant fighting me to Vanderbilt.I get the Vandy. It was
a weird experience because you know,I'm on a stretcher. They had me
in a neck brace, so allI can see is what's above me,
(06:28):
and it's just I'm just seeing lightsand doctors going everywhere, and they put
me in I see you, Andthe only question I asked I was like,
am I paralyzed? My doctor camein and he just told me it's
too early to say what's going on. Let's let's uh, let's examine and
see for sure. So I wasI sitting I see you for two days.
I guess my servant. Whatever happened, they kept postponing my surgery.
(06:51):
So I sat there for two daysand as long as two days of my
life, just not knowing what's what? Will I want walk again? We'll
you know. Just a thousand thoughtswent through my head. Finally had my
surgery. I come out. Theprognosis was I pinched my spinal cord int
my C six and it was incomplete. So what that means when the spinal
(07:15):
cord injury is incomplete. That meansyou do have sensation below your injury level,
so there's possibilities for your nerves toregenerate. I was positive about that.
My doctors kept telling me, youknow, trying to get into the
Shepherd Center, it's a very goodspinal cord rehab. We contact Shepherd Center,
they came, evaluated me, Igot accepted. I was really excited.
(07:39):
So I'm like, okay, it'sgonna be great. Through social media
Facebook, my story got around alot of people and ended up meeting one
of my mentors. He had hada car accident and at the same injury
level C six. He walked inand talked to him and I'm like,
man, He's like, yeah,I've been there. It took him about
(08:01):
eighteen months and he I mean,he was back up walking. So I
was like, oh, yeah,I got this. So you know,
they told me, just go torehab, do your therapy, do your
part, and you know the riskwill happened. Well. WILLI was at
the Shepherd Center. He stuck digilentlyto his PT plan. He put in
the time in the work, butthis situation was really difficult for him because
(08:22):
during COVID. The protocols did notallow any visitors to come see Willie besides
his sister, who was his solecaretaker at the time. So when Willie
found out that Joe Spangler was comingto see him, he was excited,
but also was left wondering how didhe even get in here. I'd call
him one day and I could tellhim his voice that he wasn't okay.
WILLI was saying, he was okay, he's doing good, He's got this,
(08:43):
but his voice was not saying thesame. Will He also had a
relationship at that time. Through hisinjury circumstances, that relationship kind of dissolved.
That was also a battle he wasgoing through. Not only did he
lose his physical ability, but healso lost someone that he here deeply for.
So he was in a lonely spot. Uh and I and it was
the only one option I had togo see. So I called him.
(09:05):
They were still in COVID protocol Likehe said he I had asked him,
has anybody come to see you?And they said they won't let anybody.
That A couple of people had askedand they told him no nobody. So
I changed my tactic. I normallywould not take this approach. But I
knew that the asking approach would notwork, so I called. I used
my rank in my name, andI told him I was a major at
(09:26):
the time. I think this isMajor Spangler. You've got one of my
soldiers in your facility. I amcoming to see him. I just need
to know when would be a goodtime for that. And the first person
said, oh, sir, yes, this you know you know you're not
authorized to do that. It wouldtake my supervisor to even consider that.
I said, okay, well,get him on the phone, so went
on hold. When supervisor supervisor hadthe same story, I gave him the
(09:46):
same spell, same response. Okay, well, I'll hope get your supervisor.
The last person I talked to.They said, Sir, I understand,
I said, I said, listen, me and my soldier we went
through a hard time in Afghanistan.He had my back then, he's going
through a hard time right now.I've got his back. I'm coming,
Sir, that's going to take thehospital administrator. This is the only person
that can approve this. I said, okay, put him on the phone.
(10:07):
So they kept me on hold forabout ten minutes. I thought they
were not going to come back.I thought they were just going to keep
me on hold till I hung up. They came back and said they approved,
great, When should I come?Will you remember the first thing I
told you when I walked in.I can't remember. I can't remember,
sir, I'm not going to treathim with kid gloves. I talked to
him straight on the only way Iknow how to do it. And I
walked into there. He was sittingin his wheelchair, and I told him,
(10:28):
soldier, I'm a commissioned officer.When I walk in the room,
you're supposed to stand up. Yousupposed to stand up, get on your
feet, soldiers. And we justhad a great conversation. Remember his nurses
came in after we talked for awhile, They said, who do you
know? How did you get inhere? They said, you must know
somebody here at this hospital that youpulled some strings. Not always what you
(10:50):
know is who you know? Isaid, I don't know anybody up here.
They said, we don't believe that. They said who do you know?
It just kept asking me who doI know? Everyone? I told
him, really what he's saying?I told him, I said, I
don't know anybody at this hospital.But here's what I do know, I
know Jesus Christ, and Jesus sentme on a mission to talk to us.
That's what I did. And meand me and Willy went into a
conversation about purpose in life. Andhe's got to find a new purpose,
(11:11):
you know, he's got to learnnew skills that there are there is a
plan for his life and what hethought was his plan may not be the
plan. And we just had along conversation about saying motivated to stay positive,
look for things that he can do, not focus on the things that
he can't do. That just kindof solidified our relationship. That's that's when
it went from Major Spangler and SartinJackson to William Joe. It's a great
(11:35):
visit. We talked about a lot, shared a lot, but that there
too is a moment that stood outto me. He was serious about our
friendship and my well being. Hepromised some kids brought me a kindle.
You know, I could read books. Give me a book to read.
Disciplines of a Godly Man, Disciplinesof a God and Man. I was
about to say seven disciplines, butyeah, disciplines of a God of man.
(11:58):
What else was it you brought me. I was supposed to be learning
the tune, but I haven't didthat yet. I'm gonna have to get
on it and keep my mind occupied. It's really stuck to his plan,
you say, digitalant and his pet. He kept his mind occupied with reading,
being trying to be social, orhe could. When he told us
the story, he was coming upto his two year mark of his PET
plan, which was going to bethe next milestone in his recovery. At
(12:20):
this time, I realized, I'mcoming up on my two year mark,
which in four days will be twoyears. I called Joe and we talked,
and I just told him I hadhit a low spot. I just
felt like I had worked r andwas focused, and I felt like I
was a decent human being, youknow. And I was just wondering,
like, well, you know,why me, Like why did this happen
to me? Why am I stucklike this? I just felt like,
(12:43):
what am I? What can Ido? I'm a quadriplegic. I have
little hand movement, but pretty muchI'm dependent on everything. Someone has to
bathe me, someone has to preparemy food, pretty much do everything for
me. I just kind of feltlike what am I here for? What
can I do? Me and Joehad to talk and just tell me,
just ask God, there's a purposefor everything, just asking what is your
(13:07):
purpose? What is your plan forme? I remember even when he was
at Shepherd and he talked to me, he said he could see me being
able to speak about my injury helpingpeople. I do realize, you know,
that may be something that I cando. About three or four months
ago, as a guy from ourarea had a car incident. He's paralyzed
as well, so I've been kindof mentoring him and I talked here from
(13:28):
time to time. Crazy when whenpeople see things and you ask what you're
playing in purpose and it kind ofjust comes to you. I know,
Joe asked to present me to tospeak here and kind of tell my story.
So everything's falling into place and whereit needs to be. It's been
a rough time, a lot ofups and down. It's been some mornings
I wake up I just that's kindof have to pet myself up, like
(13:52):
you know, it's another day.But we gotta fight, we gotta keep
going even through times. I thinkmy biggest help is my family and support
me a lot. Fiance pushes me, She supports me, she encourages me.
He can usually tell when I'm down, so she kind of goes an
extra mile of picking me back up. My kids really motivate me. Friends
(14:15):
support like Joe. I have alot of friends back home as well,
then call and check on me fromtime to time. It's been a big
help for me as well. It'sa different lifestyle. I've just kind of
got into dealing with my mental healthmyself. Just started talking to a psychiatrist,
getting to the point where I'm acceptingmy injury, accepting where I'm at,
and changing my expectations of what Iwill be able to do. A
(14:39):
lot easier to say than done.Still working on it day to day.
Two years in, it seems likea long time. I've talked to I've
got a lot of support groups,so I've talked to people that's been in
a chair, you know, fifteentwenty years. It takes time. It's
kind of like I'm a newborn baby. So I'm still to this day learning
(15:00):
I can and can't do, Stilllearning acts of getting independencies. I'm still
every day learning new ways of life. So I haven't figured it out yet.
And he's seeking help. That's importantthat he's not going into isolations or
the support groups, and that's that'sa big thing. And first I was
kind of just keeping everything into myself, trying to just deal with it and
(15:22):
being a man, you know,not wanting to express my feelings. I've
never had any history of you know, depression or mental health stuff, so
I didn't know so new to me. I realized that it is good to
have an outlet of you know,be able to express yourself, have people
to talk to that's been in yoursituation or that's dealing with the situation.
(15:43):
It just helps to even just tohave people to relate to. Typically,
I don't see people in a chairthat's like me. So when I do
get in my support groups and talkto people, it makes me feel,
you know, good that I'm notthe only one in the world that's sitting
in a chair, you know whatI mean. Thank you both so much
for taking the time to open up, be vulnerable and to share this incredible
(16:03):
story. I mean, Steph Stardenharn, what an amazing journey between an officer
and someone who's enlisted. Yeah,you know one. I think it's a
mark of a great leader to stepup for their soldiers like this, even
when they're not in their command anymore, even when they're even not in the
army anymore. I think it's areally motivational story from Willie's side too,
(16:26):
that even after two years of allthis hard work and having these peaks and
valleys in his journey, that heis still staying motivated and looking to the
next steps on how he can redefinehimself and improve himself. You're so right,
and that resiliency is something that we'retold about a lot in the military
and through various trainings, but whenit actually comes to the time where you
(16:48):
put that into practice, it's completelydifferent. So I think it'd be really
awesome if we brought in our friendsDarius White, who's the suicide Prevention coordinator,
and then also Chaplain Martin to kindof fill us in more on how
we can improve our resiliency and whatthat actually looks like in the day to
day lives of us in the Guardor anyone in the military. We'd really
(17:14):
like to know what resiliency means toeach of you. And Chaplain Martin being
a chaplain for so many years,I'm sure you've dealt with different scenarios in
one form or another regarding resiliency,could you explain to us in your experience
what that looks like for you forme to be resilient. I always think
about the rubber band, that it'sstretchable, flexible, and within our military
(17:38):
context, you have to be flexible, especially when you look at everything from
missions that's driven and sometime from thesoldier's perspective, you know, when you're
hit with life because most of uswear to hat civilian side as well as
army side more you know, airguard or what have you. Then you
(18:02):
have to put in place you knowhow what are my triggers that helps me
or what triggers me, but alsoknowing and understanding what brings me back to
the place, so being able tobe productive and carry the mission forward.
So I see that as being flexibleand being able to you know, move
in different locations and being able tonavigate the waters to you know, to
(18:25):
be resilient. Do you feel like, with your position and your role and
the different lives of soldiers that youpersonally had to adapt some kind of idea
of how to be resilient as well? I do, I think so,
I think when talking with soldiers thatyou have to see one where where they
are, and I try to meetthem where they are because I like to
(18:45):
listen first and see, you know, what is it that they are going
through, what is it that theymay be experiencing, And then from there,
not that I'm fixing anything, butjust to hear them out and maybe
to be able to navigate them withwe know, whatever situation that they are
facing, because most of the time, what I've learned is that soldiers will
work their own problems out if yousee and listen to what they're saying,
(19:08):
because sometimes they just want to beheard. And Darius can what's your position
here at JFHQ. Okay, yeah, I do suicide previnsion for the state
of Alabama. Yeah, you know, in the civilian world, suicide it
also is, you know, anissue, but I don't think that it
has been highlighted the way it's beenhighlighted here in the Army National Guard.
(19:29):
But the numbers are significantly higher herein the Guard as well. And just
like he said, or that's kindof like juggling the difficulties of both sides,
both in the military and the civilianworld. So just from the outside
looking in like, that's what Ican see. You have to be the
nine to five person on Monday throughFriday, and then on the weekend,
you know, you get to getto play. I don't want to say
anything offensive, I was gonna sayplay dress up. Sorry, but on
(19:49):
the weekend, you know, yougot you get to go out into the
field and actually do the work thatmilitary service members actually do. And so
juggling that I think can be veryvery difficult. It's not like active where
like everyone is on the same installationand you see the same people seven days
a week. You know exactly whereto go. You can go to the
chaplin here or doctor here, youcan go to the Beable Health here.
But in a civilian or in theArmy National Guard, once you guys leave
(20:11):
the weekend, then you have tolike function as just a regular person.
And honestly, as a regular person, it's also very difficult to maneuver this.
So I actually had a question withyou. You bring it up like
the civilian and military side, soyou know, I know army wide suicide
is a huge issue. I knowit's also a huge issue you know really
around the world, but especially withthe military. But you know, if
(20:33):
you're just focusing on Alabama, youknow, is this something that we're still
really struggling with in the state,And if so, what are some of
the programs in place or some ofthe things we are doing to sort of
mitigate and get help for people whoneed it. Okay, so it's really
difficult for me to compare, youknow, like how big of it is
actually an issue here in the stateof Alabama versus you know, Georgia or
(20:56):
Tennessee or whatever. But what Iwill say is like, since we are
in down south Bible Belt region,you know, so you know, God
and church is really really big,but also we kind of have this stigma
of like getting help that like otherpeople will think less of you. And
I think that's something that maybe weas Southerners, you know, have adapted
in our culture, so the needto be resilient at all times, and
(21:19):
like there's really no space for youto, like, I don't know,
like mess up or be a humanat any point without getting overtaken by life,
if you will. Are you tryingto say that resiliency is something that
comes and goes, like it flexeswith you, like it changes. That's
actually an interesting perspective I've never reallythought of it like that, but as
Chaplin Marin was explaining like his resilienceand peace, I was thinking of,
(21:41):
like, how did I gain resiliance? Most of it was through like my
childhood and the way my parents broughtme up. But I've also kind of
seen how like how similar I amwith you know, our generation is kind
of like around thirty. I'm notto but young people who are around like
twenty, they grew up almost thesame but also very very different. I
have learned that they're the way thatthey cope with life is a whole different
than us. I know, ourparents were all tough as nails, and
(22:03):
us the people around, like themillennial age, we think we're toughest nails,
but we're starting to realize we're not. But it's okay. With what
each of you guys do, doyou find yourself talking to different people that
are being almost two individually resilient wherethey're not seeking that help, or do
you find that more people are activelyseeking help for these issues that they're going
(22:25):
through and understanding they need someone elseto help them in that process. So
I think over the years, exceptfifteen years in the Guard and what I've
seen the change as far as howwe even use the verbic just to go
back and touch your own you askDarius about resiliency, does it come?
Does it go? So I thoughtabout resiliency can be community, you know
(22:47):
those when you look at it frommilitary context, those you know, try
our left to our right, thatwe know we can count on each month
or even outside once we're finished withdrill. You know a my section leader
or my you know, my companycommander and my battalion commander. It's a
major and so it it's more thanjust being individualistic, I believe. But
I think we have a concept thatyou have to be resilient, you know,
(23:12):
by yourself, instead of having thatcommunity of family that's there with you.
Because we all go through tough daysand as there you said, you
know, we build resiliency through ourstruggles or through you know, the negative
times. But also I think throughyou know, the good times, you
can you can gain resiliency also fromthat particular piece. So can we help
(23:34):
each other then with resiliency with thatin mind, I think so because everybody,
we all you know, just sittinghere, you know, we come
from different backgrounds. So my experience, my the things that I've gone through,
I think, can can you knowhelp you you know, start to
learn here and vice versa. Youknow what you guys have gone through and
(23:55):
gained, I think it can helpme as well. So we have to
lean on each other and not lookat it as hey, I'm weak or
this is you know, being weak, But is that Hey, I need
some help and I need to turnto someone you know for that help or
to just give me some guidance tohelp me see my way through. Yeah.
Sorry, I want to add onto what I think what the Peace
(24:17):
Study said is really big about.Well, just because just because I haven't
went through something, that doesn't meanthat I can't learn resilience through him.
Right. So one of the Ithink the most effective methods of what we
briefing or education, right, peersupport, I guess talking about this issue
is open testimony. And so inmy experience, you know, I'm a
(24:38):
I'm a pretty young guy, getup in front of a group of maybe
one hundred. The age is varyfrom all different, you know, like
you have some people who are freshin eighteen, some people who are on
the way out fifty nine. Idon't really know what the age is,
right, They will yeah, Butwhat I will say is I have seen
or heard various different responses, youknow, like based on the age group,
(25:00):
and you'll be surprised of like howmany young people will be willing to
like speak up and talk about theirproblems after they see an older individuals.
Right. You notice I said older, an older individual you know who who's
maybe went through something like them,or maybe is around the same age as
their parents, right, mother andfather figure, someone that you trust who
(25:21):
has been in the uniform longer thanI have, and you see that they
have went through regular struggles just thesame way as I have. And honestly,
that is one of the things thathelps these younger soldiers speak out well
like yeah, maybe I have beenstruggling with this, But I think the
more effective piece is when they say, hey, I have struggled with mental
health, but I got help andI was afraid to get help. That
is what encourages like the rest ofeveryone to speak up and be like,
(25:45):
well, you know, yeah Iexperienced this too, and I experienced this
too. So learning Brailians from eachother, yeah, Chaplin said something with
you about community with you talking aboutlearning resilience from each other, just from
a personal point. Something I've I'velearned from some leaders in the past is
to try to identify when people arestruggling. That's a good point to step
in as a leader. And thething they the thing I had a leader
at ALC tell me one time waswe don't have soldier issues in the army.
(26:07):
We have people issues. We knowhow to be soldiers. You just
have to put on the right uniform, be at the right place, right
time, to your PT. Fourthings super easy. If you're not accomplishing
those things, it's probably not becausethey're a bad soldier. It's probably because
they're having a purse of people issue. You know, there's something going on
outside of the army. There's somethinggoing on outside of the military that's causing
them not to hit those really simplestepping stones. But I think the issue
(26:32):
is knowing how to help once wesee that, because it's all too easy
to say, well, they're latefor drill again. He's always like that,
you know. So it was kindof like what you're iying those identify
an issue and then looking at itfrom this lens of trying to, I
guess, really provide a help tosomebody who might need it or you know,
because it's it's a snowball effect.You start ignoring this guy because he's
(26:55):
not showing a drill on time,or you know, they're always ate up,
or they're not passing PT because they'redrinking all the time, doing whatever,
and we sort of write it off. And that's part of it,
is building those skills to talk tothose individuals and really learn how to help.
And I think that's something a lotof people struggling struggle with, is
knowing how to help. And Iwould, I feel like, be great
advice, especially from you and youlike, what are some things that you
(27:18):
do to identify when a soldier reallyneeds that extra like when you really need
to look into care for a soldier, even if it's just minor. How
do you how do you approach thatsubject? So one for me, I
like, I like to talk,So I try to engage every soldier,
whether it's if you want to saysmall talk, you know, hey,
you know what are you doing?You know what you are? You in
school? Most you know, mostof the younger soldiers, like you're saying,
(27:41):
summer in schools or or whether itbe college or tech school, and
just to you know, I tryto read people as far as you know,
body language, facial expression, andjust having that connection with them.
And that's one of the unique thingsI think I love about chaplaincy is that
being part of the staff, butalso special staff that I can you know,
(28:04):
I can get in and intermingle withsoldiers as well as talk to leadership,
you know, to see, hey, you know, is anything going
on with with any of your soldiersthat you see that I need to be
aware of. That's that's one something, especially with you know, platoon leaders
or section leaders. I'll ask,hey, anything that I need to be
aware of, you know, fromyour soldiers, because nine times out of
(28:25):
ten they know their soldiers, youknow, better than I do because of
the chance that I get to seethem. So with that, I think
just connecting you know what is ableto allow me to be able to just
kind of see things that maybe youknow, others may not may not see.
It almost sounds like from what bothof you guys are saying, it's
like there's this path that resiliency goesdown, so you're kind of having to
(28:48):
lay these stepping stones along the waybetween other people getting involved and yourself also
being resilient. And there's a lotof these different things that we could be
doing and that we can improve onpossibly. So it's really awesome to hear
you say that, because, justlike startin, Hearne was saying, if
there's someone who is being personally resilient, possibly one of us could help them
(29:10):
to be resilient in a more efficientway to help them the long run.
I like the piece that he saidthough about making that personal connection. Now
I'm not in the military, butwhat I have been doing is observing military
culture very very closely, like sincea kid, and just being here in
an Army National Guard, I cansee how much it means for a soldier
to actually like trust their leadership,you know. I think that's one of
the most difficult things when when itcomes to addressing these young soldiers. It's
(29:36):
like, even if I did havethese problems, right like, even if
I was contemplating killing myself, orI'm homeless, or I can't really feed
my family or myself, what wouldgive me a reason to like tell any
of you all? You know?So I asked myself that question. Then
I try to put myself in themind of the soldier. I know,
it's a whole lot of mental workbut like, how would I feel if
I was them? And like wouldI trust their leader, you know,
to come and disclose personal senseive information? Do I even think it would be?
(29:59):
Like what benefit? But I getso creating that trust O soldiers know,
like regardss of the rank, likethis is a person what I can
go through with my issue And Ithink that's one of the things that helps
me just do what I do.Like I don't I don't see rank honestly
at all. I see it outof formality and respect, but I see
everyone's eyes, you know, likeand that kind of like lets me know
exactly where the head is out.So yeah, but you know, you
(30:21):
guys can speak to this. Uh. Sometimes people do see, especially from
the chaplain's perspective, they see rank. And the good thing about the Unit
Ministry team is that not only isit an officer that's a chaplain, but
also the Religious Affairs Specialists or NCObecause most of the time, if the
enlisted soldier is not comfortable coming tome, then they'll go to the religious
(30:45):
affairs specialists and share what they havegoing on. And of course you know
our you know our here and youknow we move from there. But it
it is about building trust because whensoldiers know, even family members, when
they know that they can trust you, then you know you you kind of
have the keys to the kingdom,so to speak, that you're able,
you know, to help and assistin so many ways. Now, one
(31:07):
thing that that I have noticed specificallyin the military, right when you take
one on one time, you know, for a soldier, it makes that
soldier want to come work for youharder. It's not like one of those
Okay, I respect them, sonow I can, I can, I
can get over right, it's Irespect them. So like I'm gonna do
everything I can to make sure thatlike this person is taking care of it
and I'm doing my job so thatI don't make this person look bad.
(31:30):
Right, that's true. Not judging. Let me throw that out there because
I think sometimes and maybe you guyscan help me. Well, have you
ever felt that if you brought somethingto the chaplain or maybe one of your
soldiers, that the chaplain would judge? So I have two personal stories real
quick to share. So so oneis this is not a plug for the
National Guard. I mean, youknow, as the National Guard, but
(31:53):
I do think there is at leasteven the active guard, you get to
go home and get take off yourfarm. I mean, yeah, you
get to take the uniform at theoff at the end of the day.
With active duty as well, buta lot of active duty guys live on
post spread around the world, Soat least with the Guard when they say
like a guard family, I havemy leadership, and I feel like much
closer to any guard leadership than Iever really have active duty because I do
(32:15):
see them out of uniform sometimes,you know, and that can help sort
of bridge that to trust, tohave a conversation with them, you know.
I'll say, you know, theunit I've been in forever, we've
always you know, if it's afterhours or on a first time basis,
you know, and that has reallyhelped when there have been issues in the
unit. Now, from a negativestandpoint, having been in active duty environments
(32:36):
and just all over the guard aswell, I think it's less about trust
of an individual, but it's sobig that sometimes it can fail you.
You know, I've used mental healthservice before to varying degrees of well,
if you tried not being sad orhey, these are some actual steps you
can take to talking to chaplains whoyou know are on this big active duty
(32:57):
base like downrange, who are talkinga guy every day and you can just
tell they're exhausted to you know,people who are at home, who you
know, are a little bit morepersonable, a little bit more charismatic.
And I feel like that is notnecessarily a failure, but like an issue.
And that's why I think like it'sa larger problem where hey, it's
great we have mental health services,it's great we have chaplains, but also
(33:17):
like we need soldiers and leaders tostep up to fill in those gaps when
there are like cracks in the system, right, so like create that almost
like consistency, because if a soldieris seeking out that help it, they
would probably be more inclined to talkto a leader that they trusted than there
someone they see a lot of thetime and have rapport built with. That's
(33:38):
what I say why I like thefamily piece of the Guard because I haven't
had to seek out a lot ofmental health services or you know chaplains in
the Guard because you know, hey, at the end of the day,
Sergeant Brown is now Jamie, andI can talk to Jamie on a one
to one level about issues I'm having, right, So and that was one
reason why I joined Guard. Ifelt it was or it had a family
(33:59):
feel to it, so that was, you know, something I was looking
for. I always said I'd nevergo into military, and based off of
what I saw on television, youknow, you you would see the drill
sergeant, you know, yelling andscreaming at soldiers. But that's just one
piece. So actually, when theLord put it on my heart to come
in, it was O nine andthey were talking about the different names of
(34:21):
PTSD, how those names have changedfrom war to war, and that was
probably at the height of both warsthat was going on during the time,
and that day I saw myself helpingfamilies and helping soldiers and that stayed on
my heart for two months. Iwas like okay and went, yeah,
it wasn't that easy, but yes, yes I did. You know.
(34:43):
I I love what I do,especially being a chaplain, because it brings
a sense of joy and satisfaction knowingthat, you know, I'm able to
help in whatever capacity, you know, with the soldier, with the family
member, and also the feeling thathey, I'm in a safe space.
You know, I can I canget in this space and not feel that
(35:06):
you know the hammer is coming downon me. You know, like what
you're saying, especially if we're notthere. You know from from the chaplain's
perspective that you can go to youknow, your leadership, and you can
talk to Sargeant Brown if I canuse you know what you just shared,
because you guys are just that closed. There's a there's a tight bond and
knit that's there. And you knowwhen you look at me as a chaplain,
(35:28):
you know most of our chaplains arepastors, you know, within within
the local community. So you youhave that continuity where you see him not
as chaplain Martin or you know whomever, but you see him as you know
John or you know James, whoeverhe is outside up outside of the guard.
Yeah. I think that is It'sa great thing that we have,
(35:49):
really because I feel like someone likeyou who did ministry before and about this
calling to join, it's almost likeyou yourself are a presence where you're showing
other people that you are what yousay that you are and creating that environment.
I think that even in this conversationme personally, I think learned even
more about resiliency than I did beforeand hearing the things that you each are
saying about how we can be therefor soldiers, how we can utilize different
(36:14):
resources. It's a great tool thatyou know, Sartin hern and I can
take back and help our future soldierscoming in. Thank you for listening to
the first episode of AGR. Isa really exciting journey to get here.
We've been working on this for along time now. We want to thank
everybody who spoke with us in today'sepisode and also give a special thanks to
Staff Sergeant Thomas Furlough for composing anddesigning the intro and outro music for this
(36:36):
episode. This podcast would not bemade possible if it wasn't for the amazing
public affairs team with the Alabama NationalGuard, So thank you so much.
For more information or updates on ourshow, check out our social media.
Alabama National Guard and Sergeant her AndI just want to say a huge thank
you to you for sticking it out, taking the time with me day in
and day out to make this happen. But I do have to say,
(36:57):
ifs think the worse of any personI've ever ever, I've ever smiled with
you, h m hm
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