May 27, 2024 • 48 mins
Full show from the Donovan & Jorgenson Heating & Cooling Studio: Sunday, May 26th, 2024
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(00:00):
And podcasts. Why do you haveit? Shows me has always been a
mystery on my life. I've beentold I'm alone at the end of the
nine will only you the not quite? Will only navigate it? Ry goody,
(00:25):
it turns out here the ones youare looking for all this time.
I'm just a lie. Should tellyou everybody all about time the same.
Welcome to Faith in the Zone,a show about sports and faith and when
(00:45):
the two come together and the livesthat are affected. Faith in the Zone
is brought to you by book SideBaptist Church. Let's turn it over to
Mike mcgiffren and Pastor Ken Keltner onlyon the Big nine twenty at Your iHeartRadio
app. Him to Faith in theZone on the Big nine twenty in Your
iHeart Radio app by Mike McGivern alongside. They're very excited Pastor Ken Keltner from
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Brookside Baptist Church coming from the Donovanto Jordanson Heating and Colley Studios. They've
been to my house twice this weekand boy they've done a nice job or
air conditionery. Well, then theyprobably had to go to the heater too,
didn't they. Because it's kind ofbeen back and forth. Yeah,
I'm telling you know what. Itwas like a couple of hot days and
there's an issue. All of asudden, he came out and said,
(01:30):
it's there's like an ice cube.You've got a leak and it froze.
And so they came out and tookpart of it out and took it back
to the shop and find out wherethe leak is. But they put a
temporary one in and I like itnice and cold when when I'm going to
bed. Pastor, you know,I was told in fourth grade, never
sing in public. Sister Margaret Murraysaid, mister McGivern, never sing in
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public because you are tone deaf andI don't want to hear you sing.
When Senior Gross doesn't want to hearyou sing, and Baby Jesus doesn't want
to hear you sing. But that'scruel. This is cruel, I said,
But baby is everywhere. She saidexactly. But for today's show,
I got a song to sing.Are you gonna do it? Ok La?
H oh oh man, goodness man, Oklahoma? Where the wind comes
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sep and down the road, Ohmy goodness, here we go. Pastor
Kenny walked in the studio a littleHe was a little tired. The softball
team took a whooping last night.And you know what, he comes in.
I said, Hey, we gotsomebody on today that you might might
want to talk to. He said, who's that? I said, the
former head wrestling coach at the Universityof Oklahoma. He's yelling boomer suit her
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down the hallway. Man, I'mtelling you horns down for life. Oh
goodness, gracious our special guest.And man, I've had a couple of
opportunities to talk to him before wegot to this point, and man,
what a what a fun and reallygood dude. He is Jack Spates,
former head wrestling coach at the Universityof Oklahoma. He's coached a lot of
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different places, but man, hehis legacy at the University of Oklahoma as
their wrestling coach is something else.Hey Jack, how are you today?
I'm greatly great. Well, I'lltell you what, man, my co
host, I could leave the studioright now and just let him tell you
all about Oklahoma and the days inTulsa and restaurants what's the name of that
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restaurant, Goldie's Restaurant one, Yeah, yeah, in Tulsa and the fact
that you're gonna help me get thewomen's softball coach from Oklahoma. And I'm
telling you, Jack, that wouldbe the one of the better gifts anybody
could give to me because I couldthrow it up in my partner's face for
years, because he has tried forthree years to get Patty Gasso on.
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And I love the fact you said, Hey, she's one of my really
good friend I'll help you with that, Pastor. I'm telling you I would
would Jesus, Yeah, yeah,I know she did. I mean I
listened to the h those girls givetheir testimony, and she has some strong
believers on that team. I alwayslove it they go out there and pray
after the game, and they huddleup and pray right there at the mound.
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And you know, sometimes other teamswill join, sometimes they won't.
Well, you know, my wife, my wife and I are greatly engaged
in a Mission to Iran ELAM Missionto Iran, and when we first got
associated with it, in addition tohelping UH send smuggle Bibles into Iran,
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we also scheduled the number of housemeetings home gatherings for the your audience to
come and speak in. One ofthem was at Patty's house. Wow,
Hey, do you know that whenthey won the national championship two years ago.
Out on the field, they playeda song from Casting Crowds called Nobody,
and that's the theme song for thisshow. And I thought, well,
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that's perfect. Yeah, that wouldbe great if she'd come by because
I could tell her that. Butyou've never been able to get that job
done. So let me take over, pastor let me take over with my
new friend Jack. And you knowwhat, he told me that if I
paid for the airline ticket, he'dget her in studio. No, he
didn't tell me that about Colin Kathyand see if I can take some money
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out of savings not supposed to lieon faith in the zone. Jack never
said that. Hey, Jack,thank you so much for a few minutes
of your time. And certainly wantto thank John Saucier from Team Jam who
introduced us, and what a goodman he is. He certainly has been
doing a great job, not onlyin Ohio but in Florida now and for
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him to introduce us, I justthank him for that. Faithful brother,
faithful brother, and the Lord Amen, one hundred percent. Jack. Let's
talk about your your upbringing, yourbackground, where you grew up and how
you ended up in the beautiful stateof Oklahoma. Okay, Well, I'm
New York City boy born and bred. My first fifteen years there, and
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it's interesting because I could not haveimagined a better life. You go outside,
you got a billion friends, You'replaying stickball, snup ball, punch
ball, slack ball. Every nowand then you throw in a whiffle ball,
and you could go anywhere. WhenI'm like eight ten years old,
I'm crossing highways, I'm taking theelevated trains and subways. It was just
a great life. I eventually gotinvolved in speech and debate and was third
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in the city in speech and debate. I was part of a band and
some named it the best kid bandaround for that time, and so I
love life. And all of thatchanges. When I'm fifteen years old going
into my sophomore year, my familymoves from New York City to Long Island
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and my my life is literally over. My new school doesn't have speech and
debate. I was planning on goingto college on a speech in debate,
scholarship and being a lawyer. Secondly, I'm the worst member of the best
kids band around, and there's noway I'm getting in a vand like that,
and I wind up selling all ofmy things and I am literally miserable.
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And one day I'm in gym classand the gym teacher who happened to
be the assistant wrestling coach, comesup to me and he says, your
spats. I said, speak forthe wrestling team and I said no.
He said, well, your name'son the list. I said, I
didn't put it there. As itturned out, some friends of mine put
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me on the list as a joke. They thought it would be funny.
I was five ninety pounds and theysigned me up for the wrestling team as
a joke. Wow, well,I have to tell you that that joked.
It turned your life around, myfriend, No, it absolutely did.
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The coach talked to me and hesaid, watched mapping the team.
I said, I've never wrestled beforein my life. Truth is, I've
never seen any wrestling apart from ropesright, And he said, well,
we'll teach you. I said,I only weigh ninety pounds. He said,
we have weight classes. He taughtme into coming out. I went
home that night, I said,Mom, Dad, I'm out for the
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wrestling to you, I found outyears later they got in bed that night
and went laugh. But because Iwas so empty, and because I was
so broken, I lunged into itinstinctively. We'd watch television at night.
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I would do push ups and situp stern commercials. I started running,
I started lifting. My dad gotme a bench press, which I got
stuck under at seventy pounds and Ihad to call my mother. True story.
But I kept lifting and I woulddo everything. Eventually, my dad
we had an old, damp,dingy cellar in a rent house that we
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were living in, and my dadput rug on top of rug on top
of rug in this damp, dingycellar, and now I have matts,
and so I'd called kids to comeover and wrestle with me. Any opportunity
I have walk around with rugburns.But two years later I was underfeated New
York State champ and third in thenation. So it it paid off,
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and I am forever indebted to thesport of wrestling and to the Lord who
introduced me to it. One hundredand eighteen and eight College Slippery Rock University
eight. Oh, I bet youdo, I bet you do. I
wonder what uniform he's gonna put on. I you know what, I have
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an idea, but I'm not quitesure. We'll get to that at the
end of the show. Hey,Jack, when you started having some success
as a wrestler, did that changethe way you felt about moving to Long
Island and going to a different school, And did you start fitting in a
little bit better there? Oh,my heavens, inside of six months,
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I would have never gone back.And I just spoke with the team here
in Oklahoma, and I tell thatstory because there are a lot of kids
that are struggling with all sorts ofdifferent things, and things come into your
life and you think they are theworst things, and they turn out to
be the very best things. Andof course, if you're a foul of
Christ, God works all things togetherfor the good. So sometimes the things
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that just seem like the worst thingsthat could happen turn out to be the
very best. Amen to that.Hey, when you got into coaching,
it looks to me like you beganyour coaching career at Baptist Bible College and
then you had six conference championships,and then you went out to serve as
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assistant coach University of Pittsburgh and USMilitary Academy, then to Cornell. You've
had a lot of success as acoach. Was it difficult to leave some
of the places that you were at, like the Baptist Bible College. No,
that wasn't difficult. Actually, what'sinteresting about that is I just wanted
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to get a year of Bible college. And the church that I was involved
in the pastor had gone to theBible College there, and he recommended that
Baptist Bible College in Clark Summit,Pennsylvania, and I called up. They
had a wrestling program, so Icalled up the ad. I had a
wife and a child, and Isaid, you know, I would need
some help. Is there a possibilityof getting some money and helping the team?
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And he said yeah, And Iwent out there and he told me
while I was out there that Icould take my classes in the sense because
they had an alternative curriculum for peoplethat hadn't had any Bible college training.
The problem was most of the peoplehad, and even the ones that hadn't
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had been in Bible teaching churches formany, many years. I didn't even
know the books of the Bible.Now, of course I knew a few,
but I didn't even know the booksof the Bible and so I'm my
first class is Old Testament class,and I am in shock because I think
it's Greek class. And the nextclass was Greek class. So it was
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quite a challenge, but wrestling itwas a different level. But I loved
it. I loved the guys,you know, and we had we had
a lot of fun. We dida lot of ministry together and we had
good success. And then I wasout of I left there to do campus
ministry. The former president of thecollege in seminary had asked me the year
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before to be a youth pastor andI declined, and then he had might
start a campus ministry, which Idid and absolutely loved it. But then
it's a very kind of separatistic group. And inside of really like nine months,
I think I was outside the doctrinalstatement and I could either shut my
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mouth and keep doing what I loveor fess up knowing I was going to
be gone at about seven seconds.And that's what happened. Now. Having
said that, they were very graciousto me, they were very generous,
They loved me, but you know, their doctrinal statement was about a half
an inch wide, and so youknow, I had to move on,
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you know, Jack, It's asmall world. My son actually was a
head soccer coach at Baptist Bible Collegeand Clark Summit. Yeah, for about
about six years, for about sixyears, I guess he's been out of
there for about probably five years now. He's down on and I guess at
Georgia and has started a soccer businesswith small children down there that God's using
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him at. But uh, whenI saw that name, Keltner, Keltner
k E L T n e R. Mike, do you have that?
Okay, I know trust it wasthe head wrestling coach when I was the
assistant. I did all the coaching, teaching and recruiting and uh, but
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he was also a soccer coach andthey named the soccer field after he and
Roger Jacobs, who were on tobecome doctor Pickering's son in law. So
good and godly people. They actuallyhonored me a few years ago, which
was amazing to me. But oncampus, and I'm really really impressed with
the work that Jim Lytele and othersare doing there. Yeah, small,
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it is a small world. Andyou also coached at US Military Academy,
and another pastor's son is been inthe military. Kurt so there. It
is a small world. And uh, I coached some basketball for some aau
over at the University of Pittsburgh,So just a U, not just a
you. We brought a team thereand yeah and uh wow, yeah,
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I didn't even know that. I'ma huge I really like Pittsburgh, like
I love it. I've been I'vebeen there a few times. Pittsburgh is
very much rejuvenated. Oh my good. It's beautiful when you come from the
airport through that tunnel and there arethe you know, the the three rivers
and the yellow bridges and yeah,it's, uh, just a beautiful town.
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Hey, guys, we're gonna getto Yeah, we're gonna get to
a break. I apologize, coach. We're gonna get to a break.
Other side of the break, wewill continue our conversation. He is Jack
Space. He is Uh, I'mjust gonna say, the former wrestling coach
at University of Oklahoma. That's okay, Yeah, because you smile every time
I say it, every single time. If it was Universe we see Texas,
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he wouldn't even be in the studio, Jack, Just so you know,
he wouldn't be in the studio.Well, he's a very discern yes,
yes, he is hey, Andlater in the show, I want
to talk to you about a bookthat you're in, the book Faith in
Wrestling and how the role of awrestler mirrors the Christian life written by Michael
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Fessler, And you're actually in thatbook and I want to talk to you
a little bit about that. Inthe third segment, we'll ask our guests
for his testimony. On the otherside of the break again, he is
Jack Spates. He's the former headwrestling coach at the University of Oklahoma.
This is Faith in the Zone onthe Big nine twenty in your iHeart Radio
App. More now with Faith inthe Zone, discover how sports and faith
(16:49):
come together. Faith in the Zoneis brought to you by BIC Automotive.
Let's turn it back over to Mikemcgibb and Pastor Ken Keldner only Big nine
twenty and your right Heart Radio app. We welcome back to Faith in the
Zone on the Big nine twenty inyour iHeartRadio App. I'm Mike McGivern alongside
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my co host, He's the best. Pastor Ken Keltner, the head pastor
from Brookside Baptist Church Slash Oklahoma.Our special guest man Jack Spates, He's
I wish people sometimes could hear whatwe talk about during the break. Maybe
not all the time, but sometimesJack Spates, the former head wrestling coach
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at the University of Oklahoma. Yeah, during the break, Jack said,
Hey, Pastor, you ever getback to Oklahoma, he come stay with
me. Well, you know,I'll get the softball coach. Well we'll
go out and have lunch. PastorLake threw his headset down. He was
running to his carter start driving toNorman, Oklahoma. I love that,
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Hey, Jack. This second segmentand I say this each and every week,
it's our favorite segment, and it'sa segment that we get asked about
the most when it comes to faithin the zone. And we asked our
guests to share their testimony, andif you would be so kind, surely,
always a joy for me to dothat. It's actually a two part
testimony. Sadly, but I wasborn and raised in New York City,
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Catholic school for nine years, CatholicChurch for fifteen. There were seven kids.
When we moved out to Long Islandwhen I was fifteen. That was
basically the end of my religion becausein the city, you could walk to
school, walk to church. InLong Island, you couldn't walk anywhere.
My parents weren't it, couldn't takeus to school, and they really had
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no interest in going to church.So that was basically the end of my
religion, except for Christmas Eastern andwhen I was in trouble, and when
I was a sophomore at Slippery Rock, that Slippery Rock State College. I
was home, I was red shirting. I was home at Christmas and a
guy I had met in the NewYork Athletic Club tournament called me up asked
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me if I wanted to drive downthe Maryland with him and compete in an
open tournament. I said sure,and he knows what's coming. We stay
with the young married couple who assoon as we get there, start talking
about Jesus, and I'm like,let me out of here, Jesus freak
right, But they're really nice Jesusfrate so I'm not real shy. So
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I begin to debate with him.I think I feel I've been told I
believe, And they keep opening upthe Bible and saying, but God's word
says, but Jesus says, butthe Bible says, And I was very
frustrated because I'd gone to nine yearsof Catholic school and I had never read
the Bible myself. Secondly, I'ma Christian, right, I mean,
I'm not Buddhist, I'm not Jewish. But these are Christians who actually love
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Jesus, who want to study hisword or want to sing his praises,
who want to tell everybody about him. And I could not think of one
person I knew like that, exceptone time when I was in college.
I called on this apartment of fourgirls and I knocked on the door and
a voice said come on in.And I opened the door and they're all
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sitting around on the floor with biblesand they're like, come on in,
and I'm like, that's okay,I'm God. So after this tournament,
I go back and I look upone of the girls and I was kind
of sheepish, and I'm like,would you happen, by any chance to
be born again? And she goesyeah. So I started going to fellowships,
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I started going to the Bible studies, I started going to church.
I met with my priests, andafter that I knew that wasn't the answer.
That was my heart on it,and eventually surrendered my life to Christ,
and it was a huge transformation.Wound up leaving many people to the
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Lord and walk with him for manyyears, and then very very sadly turned
my heart away from him for many, many years. And I will anticipate
your question as to what happened.Well, I would say a number of
things. I would say that oneseven day was a great experience in some
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respects, and there were good andgodly people there. But I would also
say that a lot of it wasbased around knowing the Bible to prove everybody
else wrong. And we're in avery narrow group and we want to know
our Bibles. We want to youknow, and we want to know them
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right. And that's a good thing. And there were those who understood it
properly to study the Word, tofeed your soul, to get to know
God better, to learn all aboutwhat He has done on or to happen
wants to do in and through us. But there is that pride and that
debating spirit which went along well withmy personality. It was it was at
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the time, and it's changed significantly. It was very legalistic and a lot
of it was centered you don't dothis, you don't do that you don't
do. And of course and withthe understanding of you don't do these things
because God just knowing you just can'tdo them. And well, the scriptures,
as I understand it, have thingscalled explanatory guars that translated for four
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four. And God is very graciousto explain why he doesn't want us to
sin, not just to you know, keep us from having fun. Okay,
God doesn't want us to sin,for sin will always bring rune,
brokenness, and bondage into the worldthat he loves and into the people that
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he loves. And so I thinkmy understanding of sin was skewed. I
think I think I wound up approachinglife and even ministry. And this is
with good intent. It wasn't amalevolent plot, but the same way approached
my wrestling. I'm going to outworkand out think and outstudy and you know,
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and have a successful ministry. Itwould have been better had I out
praised, you know. So whathappens. Now I have to leave and
I've always loved everything I've done,and now I just have to get a
job because I've got a wife andI think at the time now three and
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a half children, okay, andI just have to get a job,
and I hate my job. Ihad grown up extremely sexually promiscuous, had
fought it mostly successfully, you know, as a new believer and as someone.
But now it's amazing for all myknowledge, what little understanding I had
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in many respects, and I startgoing back to sexual sin in the things
I'm looking at, the ways I'mthinking, and then eventually the things I'm
doing. And what sin does isit caresses and feels good displeasure in sin
right for me, and then itgrabs on and it will lead you places
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you never thought you would go,and keep you for far longer. And
what happens then is sin will blindyour eyes, dull your ears, and
harden your heart. You read aboutthese worship pastors and youth pastors and regular
pastors that are turning from the faith, my friends, that is not intellectual,
that is sin has gotten hold ofthem. And if I'm in a
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room with them, to say,my friend, what sin has gotten the
hope to you? Okay, justyou gotta go one way or the other.
You can't do vote. You're eithergonna go with the Lord or you're
gonna go away for Lord. It'stoo miserable, you know, continuing on
while holding on to the Lord,and so I eventually turn away my heart.
I didn't play the game. Ididn't pretend like I'm a Christian when
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I turned, I turned and walkedthat way for many, many years until
God, in his grace and mercybrought me back. Now do you want
me to go into that? Doyou want to sure? I do?
Yes? Please? Okay? Sopeople say, well, what brought you
back? Which many people had.I mean, this was seventeen years my
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friends, okay, And I wouldsay, first the general futility of life.
And when I say that, it'snot that I wasn't enjoying life.
I've always been a cup half fullguy, and I didn't have a lot
to be unhappy about. I reallyloved my life. But if you ask
me even then, do you havepeace and rest and joy? I probably
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would have burst out laughing because Iwould have known what you were talking about,
and I would have had to sayno, because there's a big difference
between the world's happiness and peace andrest and joy. Nothing was ever enough.
It's like a scratch an itch thatyou have to keep scratching. It's
like you're still reaching for your nextaccomplishment, or your next woman, or
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your next and that I would say, that's the first thing. The second
thing God was working in my life. And first I had a heart attack.
And my heart attack didn't into restingme, and my heart attack didn't
make me run back to God,but it did make me grateful, and
I started saying thank you, thankyou. And then in the midst of
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and my wife had left a numberof years before, which she should have
and did so, I believe biblically, And it's so tragic what sin has
done there and in the ruination ofa family, and and but anyway,
I have now all these girlfriends,and there's one in particular who loves me
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desperately and is just hoping that oneday I will love her. But I
love me, and that's what Sinndoes. And eventually she leaves. And
that also, and I never woundup. I never thought i'd wind up
there. But it made me startthinking, who are you? Is this
what you are? Is this whatlife is? You're just going to go
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from one person to another to anotherin the in the seeming endless cycle of
seeking to satisfy yourself. And andso I began to read different things,
and it's interesting. I read acouple other things. I knew immediately this
is not the answer. And Iwent back to the scriptures and I found
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a great deal of there. ButI kept reading, and I started praying,
and eventually I made an appointment withthe pastor of a church and I
told them my story. I said, look, I said, I don't
consider myself a Christian. I said, by their fruits, you shall know
them. I said, but tobe honest with you, I wouldn't know
how to become a Christian. Becausesaid the best of my understanding, Even
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now, I truly did sur endof my life, I truly did believe
in the Lord Jesus. And Isaid, but seventeen years, you know.
And here's what he said to me, whether right or wrong, Okay,
he said, you know this part'sright. He said, with you,
seventeen years, there is a longperiod of time, but with the
Lord, one day is a thousandyears. And he started quoting Peter,
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which I knew, and I startedcrying, just a little bit, some
sniffles, And then he said,let me ask you a question. When
Christ died for your sins, howmany of them are future, all the
ones up to the point, well, he turned back on all the one's
period. I started sobbing in hisoffice. I'm the wrestling coach at the
(29:07):
University of Oklahoma, and I amsobbing in his office. And they're really
tears of joy because I know thatGod has me. And I think because
I was enamored with the world,because I used to think, and I
think a lot of believers do,or at least professing believers, that God
had the answer vertically, but horizontally. If you can live in the world
(29:29):
and then still be with God,that's your best bet. And that is
a life from the devil, andthat is so untrue. And I realized
that God has me, and Ithink because I was enamored with the world.
He took hands off. Okay,we read about, you know,
things like he turned them over.Turn them over and don't go taste of
(29:52):
this world, eat plenteously, seeand see how it goes. And it
did not go well. And Godbrought me back to my knees, for
which I am eternally grateful. Andfrom that time, I tell you for
me to live his Christ and dieHis gain, and I just try and
make my life count both for hereand eternity. Wow, our guest,
(30:17):
he is Jack Space. My goodness, I don't want to say he's the
former head wrestling coach University of Oklahoma. Is so much more than that pastor.
Oh Jack, Uh, you knowtalking about what the pastor was sharing
with you there, it's just sowonderful to know that when we come to
Christ, the relationship is a donedeal because he's the one who saved us.
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But then you talked about our fellowship. That's that's dependent on us,
and that can look up and down, up and down, up and down,
even like a you know, somemajor graft that's up and down,
and that's because it's on us.But you know, I wake up every
morning, Jack, and I thankthe Lord number one that mercy enduras forever.
And it's because of his mercies.I'm not consumed. His compassions are
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new every morning, and his faithfulnessis great. I'm just thankful in my
own life. He's been long suffering. I went to Bible College, got
out, and even taught in aChristian school, and the last thing I
wanted to do was be a youthpastor. I fought the Lord tooth and
now I'd had some bad youth pastorsin my life. I fought the Lord
tooth and now I was a miserableperson. I didn't you know my wife,
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who I've been married to now fortyyears, was in our church.
I grew up with her, andI remember, man, I didn't want
to set with her. She hada great love for the Lord. I
was fighting the Lord. Didn't wantto do what the Lord wanted me to
do. And I had an olderman come up to me in the church.
He goes, what are you doing? Man? Sitting back here on
the back row. I know shedon't take communion. You're the woman you
need to be with. Upfront,has about five guys around her, and
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I go, yeah, well,thank you, mister Dodd. I'm just
struggling away in my life right now. But I tell you, I come
back from ascogy Oklahoma. I gotplaying soccer with some guy. I love
soccer, but these guys didn't knowhow to play. And I'm just trying
to do anything get out of church. And I came back from a scogy
Oklahoma, weeping, saying God forgiveme. I have been fighting you and
(32:09):
Jack. I was a youth pastorfor about twenty years and now as a
pastor brooks out our youth guy leftand so for the last couple of years
I've been doing that. And soI man, I tell you, I
tell you, you know, theforgiveness of our Lord. I don't have
to accept Jesus, but man,I got to come back and ask his
forgiveness and that he will clean meup and put me back on the road
(32:31):
to keep going for him. Jack, I'm so happy. I'm so happy
that that when that man asked youthat question and brought you to tears,
that he was bold enough and hehad so much conviction that you're the head
wrestling coach at Oklahoma and this guyis able to take you, you know,
basically puts you to your knees witha couple of questions. And I
(32:52):
thank him for having the willingness tohave that conversation with you, Amen and
men. And one of the thingstoo, First of all, the Gospel,
of course means good news. Whatgood news. No matter who you
are or what you've done, youcan have the forgiveness of all of your
sins. I have people sometimes askme as I share my story, do
(33:15):
you live with shame and guilt?And I say absolutely, not. Christ
has borne my shame. He's bornmy guilt. Now I live with regrets.
There are a billion things. I'vealways been astonished by Hollywood starters who
will say things like they wouldn't changeanything. I'm like, seriously, do
(33:35):
you have a conscience? You so? And but their new beginnings with the
Lord, and what a wonderful thingthat is. And the other thing about
this is, I think there aremany believers, pseudo believers whatever, real
believers too, that think that theChristian life doesn't work. And it doesn't
(33:57):
unless by great through faith live it. If you're an unbeliever, or if
you're a believer, did he saidthat you're inviting sin in your life?
You can invite room brokenness and bondage, and then you're gonna be wondering,
like, God, how come allthis? I mean, this is happening.
God's way works, and when weunderstand that and we walk in that
way, that's when we really experiencethe life God is designed for us.
(34:22):
Yeah, you know, and Jack, you're so right, because religion has
made it so confusing, and soa lot of people, you know,
I look at him and they go, well, let me tell you,
there's a whole difference between religion andhaving a relationship with Jesus Christ, and
religion gives you some head knowledge youbelieve in God. The Bible says the
devil's believe in God. That's youknow. It has to go down.
It has to transfer from your headto your heart. Aymed, guys,
(34:44):
we've got to get to a break. He is Jack Spates, former head
wrestling coach at University of Oklahoma.He's We don't have time to tell you
how many Hall of Fames this guy'sdid, but he's in a few of
them. I can tell you thatgreat testimony. Jack, We're gonna get
to a break. Other side ofthe break, I have a couple of
questions for you, and then thatlast segment, we'll ask you all the
(35:06):
uniforms you've ever put on, whichone do you pull out to get one
more game or match? And we'llget that answer at the end. This
is Faith in the Zone on theBig nine twenty and your iHeart Radio apps
just all about sign say welcome backto Faith in the Zone, a show
(35:31):
about sports and faith and when thetwo come together. Faith in the Zone
is brought to you by Donovan andJorgensen, Heating and Cooling. Let's continue
with Michael Gibbons and Pastor Ken Kiltnanonly on the Big nine twenty and your
iHeartRadio App. Welcome back to Faithin the Zone on the Big nine twenty
(35:52):
and your iHeart Radio App. Weare coming from the Donovan to Jorgensen,
he didn't need Cooling Studios. Anyproblems with your h facs. My largest
employee owned HVAC company in the stateof Wisconsin. Like they did for me
this week, They'll take great careof you. Go to Donovan Jorgenson dot
com. I get more people thatwork there that asked me about the sponsorship
(36:15):
to Faith in the Zone and howexcited they are that their company is part
of this show. And I thankthe people at Donovan Jorgansy Cooley, our
special guest, has been a greatshow. He is Jack Spates, former
head wrestling coach at the University ofOklahoma. Hey, Jack, what is
your wife's name? Barbie with awhy, Barbie with a Y? And
(36:38):
I see four kids, A coupleof boys, a couple of girls.
Both boys were pretty good wrestlers.I see. Yeah. Now you have
to understand that that is sadly frommy first masses yep. I know that.
Yep, Barbie. Barbie and Ihave six children between us and eight
grandchildren. But you are right.My boys was wrestlers. Jeremy was third
(37:01):
twice in Oklahoma and an Oklahoma Statechamp and a Division one All American.
And Justin was runner up in Oklahomaas a sophomorets and a five time Junior
national champ and then two time PAState champ, ow of the State and
ow of the Dapper Damn Classic,which is the premiere All Star Media Country.
(37:22):
So yeah, yeah, good boys. Yeah yeah, you had to
enjoy watching them when when they wereon the mat. Hey doing research,
Jack, there was a book thatkept coming kept coming up in a number
of things that that I found whenI was doing research for this interview.
And there's a book called Faith inWrestling, How the Role of a Wrestler,
(37:44):
How a Role of a Wrestler Mirrorsthe Christian Life, by Michael Fessler,
And and you're in that book.And I'm wondering if on this show,
we've had guys that have had theconversation with Pastor and I pastors of
basketball athlete, a coach I coachedfor a long time, and we both
believe that as a Christian you couldbe really competitive on the field on the
(38:07):
court, because I always felt likeif we're super competitive and either beat him
or came close, guys would bewilling to pray with us after the game.
If we just threw the game andjust didn't put up any fight at
all, that would not happen.And I'm wondering about this book and the
idea of how a wrestler mirrors theChristian life. If in that book they
(38:30):
talk about being able to be aChristian and be competitive. Yes, So
Michael Fassler is a great writer.He's a godly young man. I don't
know how young he is anymore,but he's a lot younger than I am.
And he's a good friend. Andit's an excellent book. And the
answer to that is, oh,yes. If you look at our international
(38:53):
team with USA Wrestling, many ofthose guys, you know, top three
in each wait, many of thoseare faithful warriors for Christ. You know,
Kyle Schneider, Olympic gold medalist,Zane Retherford, Thomas Gilman. You
know, I could just go onand on. Uh, Joey McKenna,
(39:15):
Brandon Slay Olympic gold medalist, hasan incredible club outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
and so many of them are faithfulin fact, including at the Olympic
Trials and in the Olympics and atthe NCAA Championships, fingers up in the
air pointing to God. And intheir interviews they want to talk more about
(39:38):
Jesus than they want to talk abouttheir victories. And part of this is
learning to wrestle unto the glory ofGod, apart from the constraints and the
pressures of I've got to win,I've got to win, I've got to
win. No What's Colossians tell us, whatever you do, working it with
all your heart as working for theLord, not for men, since you
(40:00):
know you'll receive an inheritance in theLord's reward. So as we learn to
yield that, like all of life, to the Lord, we were able
to compete with a lot more freedom. Now there may be a question does
God want you doing this? MaybeGod wants you, you know, to
be spending more time in the worldand more time but and that's a different
(40:22):
issue. But the bottom line is, as you're competing, you know,
for the Lord on the match,you're also seeking to be faithful off the
mats in wrestling, not flesh andblood, but principalities and powers. So
done right. The Christian life bringsjoy and blessing in all areas of life,
(40:45):
even regardless of our circumstances. Youknow, my dad used to always
tell me, it's it's no disgraceto fail, but it's a sin.
If you do less than your bestand you're not failing, right, then
you're not Then you're being faithful.Yeah, and it's just you know,
you just didn't come out on topand points. Hey, hey Jack,
(41:06):
how about you miss coaching? OhI'm missed coaching. But I love my
life. We live crazy, crazy, busy lives. We're involved in a
church plant to the worst communities inNorman. I teach three Bible studies a
week. One is a zoom Biblestudy of men from fourteen states. You
(41:29):
can share it with any listeners,any men that want to take part of
it. But I teach six toseven out of every eight weeks, and
then we have guest speakers. MichaelFessler has been a guest speaker. Olympic
gold medalist Kyle Schneider, Brandon slayBen, and John Peterson. You guys
may be aware of they've all been. They've all been guest teachers, Frank
(41:51):
mal and Arrow, Joey McKenna,all these are great, great, great
wrestlers, but godly men. Hey, guys, we have to get to
a break because we are gonna beshort on time in that last segment.
Now, we gotta have Jack onagain. I mean this has been trust
me. Yeah, we we dohave to have Jack on and and UH
possibly have that author on as whileI'd like to get in contact with him.
(42:15):
He is Jack Spates. He's theformer head wrestling coach at the University
of Oklahoma, doing great work rightnow in Norman. And again I want
to thank John from UH I'll tellyou, yeah, from a team Jam
who set us up with this contact. And Jack has been just an incredible
(42:35):
guest. We will ask him thatquestion. What uniform you think you know
it, don't you? Yeah?I think so. All right, we'll
find out. This is SI.This his Faith in the Zone. I'm
the Big nine twenty in your iHeartRadio app. I'm just going back to
(43:00):
Faith in the Zone. Brought toyou by Donovan and Jorgensen, Heating and
Cooling, b I C Automotive andBrookside Baptist Church. Here's Mike McGivern and
Pastor Ken Kelder only on the Bignine twenty and you're right Heart Radio app.
Welcome back to Faith in the Zoneon the Big nine twenty and your
iHeart Radio app by Mike McGivern alongsidemy co host. Who who did they
(43:23):
say? Who? Who's your castor? Keutler from Brooks Side? Who is
that Mike's show man. I'll tellyou, Jack, my back hurts sometimes
from carrying this guy throughout this show. I'm only kidding. Our special guest,
Jack Spates, former head wrestling coachUniversity Oklahoma. And there's a lot
(43:44):
more if you google his name.Man a big time wrestler, big time
wrestling coach. Now he's maybe doingthe best work of his life in Norman,
Oklahoma. Hey Jack, this lastsegment, we always asked this question,
all the uniforms you ever put on, right from high school rest and
the college rest, of all ofthem, if you could put them all
(44:05):
in the closet, pull one outto get one match back, either because
it was the best match ever,or there was a loss there that you
were too happy about what you deformed. You pull out. Who do you
compete against and why I'm gonna askKen as Ken, which one for you?
Yeah, I would say it hadto been Slippery Rock. Yeah,
(44:27):
there's eight there's eight losses that maybehe would pull, but I'm thinking high
school. I'm going back to highschool. Okay, all right, Jack,
give us one. It's Slippery Rock. And it's the finals of the
Naas my junior year, and Iwas undefeated, and I'm in the finals
and had not had a close match. I was. I think my closest
(44:51):
match was five points. The guybeating the Semis had beat me pretty handily
the year before, and I beathim by five points or so in the
Semis. Now in the finals,I've got a great wrestler who had beaten
me the year before as well.And but this is this is almost bizarre.
I always had to get my kneetaped. It seemed a very bad
(45:15):
knee, especially my right one,and maybe maybe it took a little more
time. But we didn't go upin the wrestling room, and I didn't
warm up. I fell into thetrap of I feel good strong. Sometimes
as you warm up you feel alittle weaker. But trust me, you're
better off having warmed up, andcertainly having done what you always have done
(45:37):
every maac. You should be preparingthe same, warming up the same,
drilling, the same, thinking,the same, stretching all of that,
and I didn't. And as aresult, it's not that I lost,
okay, it's that it was aboring match, and that is my biggest
regret. It wasn't all out giveeverything. Now, he was a very
(46:00):
strategic wressler. I think he slowedme down and he beat me. But
it wasn't the loss. It wasthe way in which it was. It
was a very controversial takedown, whichthat's even not the issue. It just
wasn't a great match. I loseeleven to ten, I lose ten to
nine. That that's a whole differentstory. So I would do that over
(46:22):
again in a heartbeat. And he'sbecome a real good friend, so you
know, I respect him greatly andhe was a great wrestler. But it
was the way in which it cameabout that I wasn't proud of and didn't
wrestle with that complete freedom and aband then, not because I was nervous
or afraid. I just didn't warmup properly and wasn't ready to go all
(46:45):
out from the very West purse whistle. That's a great answer. Well you
were right on that one, Pastor. I thought he was going back to
Long Island or something. Then,guys, this is great. How old
are you? How old are you? How old am I? I'm getting
ready to turn sixty six? Okay, so you'll probably remember. I don't
know about Mike. He sounds likehe's about eighteen or so. In eighteen
(47:06):
nineteen, Hey, hey, Jacob, real quick. We got about thirty
seconds here go. Okay. Theyshowed that match on the Wide World of
Sports and they used a clip ofit in the commercial to throw a victory
the age defeat six months I wasthe agony of defeat. God is good.
He is Jack Space, what agreat guest. Former head wrestling coach
(47:30):
University of Oklahoma. Jack, thankyou so much for your time, Pastor.
It's great to see you. Yep, great, Thank you, Jack.
You got to have a good day. Guys. This is Faith in
the Zone. I'm the Big ninetwenty in your iHeart Radio app. Say
you've been listening to Faith in theZone, brought to you by brook Side
Baptist Church. Thought of it atJargonson Heating and Cooling and BIC Automotive Faith
(47:52):
in the Zone airs every Sunday morningat eight am only on the Big nine
twenty and your iHeartRadio app.
And podcasts. Why do you haveit? Shows me has always been a
mystery on my life. I've beentold I'm alone at the end of the
nine will only you the not quite? Will only navigate it? Ry goody,
(00:25):
it turns out here the ones youare looking for all this time.
I'm just a lie. Should tellyou everybody all about time the same.
Welcome to Faith in the Zone,a show about sports and faith and when
(00:45):
the two come together and the livesthat are affected. Faith in the Zone
is brought to you by book SideBaptist Church. Let's turn it over to
Mike mcgiffren and Pastor Ken Keltner onlyon the Big nine twenty at Your iHeartRadio
app. Him to Faith in theZone on the Big nine twenty in Your
iHeart Radio app by Mike McGivern alongside. They're very excited Pastor Ken Keltner from
(01:07):
Brookside Baptist Church coming from the Donovanto Jordanson Heating and Colley Studios. They've
been to my house twice this weekand boy they've done a nice job or
air conditionery. Well, then theyprobably had to go to the heater too,
didn't they. Because it's kind ofbeen back and forth. Yeah,
I'm telling you know what. Itwas like a couple of hot days and
there's an issue. All of asudden, he came out and said,
(01:30):
it's there's like an ice cube.You've got a leak and it froze.
And so they came out and tookpart of it out and took it back
to the shop and find out wherethe leak is. But they put a
temporary one in and I like itnice and cold when when I'm going to
bed. Pastor, you know,I was told in fourth grade, never
sing in public. Sister Margaret Murraysaid, mister McGivern, never sing in
(01:55):
public because you are tone deaf andI don't want to hear you sing.
When Senior Gross doesn't want to hearyou sing, and Baby Jesus doesn't want
to hear you sing. But that'scruel. This is cruel, I said,
But baby is everywhere. She saidexactly. But for today's show,
I got a song to sing.Are you gonna do it? Ok La?
H oh oh man, goodness man, Oklahoma? Where the wind comes
(02:21):
sep and down the road, Ohmy goodness, here we go. Pastor
Kenny walked in the studio a littleHe was a little tired. The softball
team took a whooping last night.And you know what, he comes in.
I said, Hey, we gotsomebody on today that you might might
want to talk to. He said, who's that? I said, the
former head wrestling coach at the Universityof Oklahoma. He's yelling boomer suit her
(02:46):
down the hallway. Man, I'mtelling you horns down for life. Oh
goodness, gracious our special guest.And man, I've had a couple of
opportunities to talk to him before wegot to this point, and man,
what a what a fun and reallygood dude. He is Jack Spates,
former head wrestling coach at the Universityof Oklahoma. He's coached a lot of
(03:09):
different places, but man, hehis legacy at the University of Oklahoma as
their wrestling coach is something else.Hey Jack, how are you today?
I'm greatly great. Well, I'lltell you what, man, my co
host, I could leave the studioright now and just let him tell you
all about Oklahoma and the days inTulsa and restaurants what's the name of that
(03:34):
restaurant, Goldie's Restaurant one, Yeah, yeah, in Tulsa and the fact
that you're gonna help me get thewomen's softball coach from Oklahoma. And I'm
telling you, Jack, that wouldbe the one of the better gifts anybody
could give to me because I couldthrow it up in my partner's face for
years, because he has tried forthree years to get Patty Gasso on.
(03:57):
And I love the fact you said, Hey, she's one of my really
good friend I'll help you with that, Pastor. I'm telling you I would
would Jesus, Yeah, yeah,I know she did. I mean I
listened to the h those girls givetheir testimony, and she has some strong
believers on that team. I alwayslove it they go out there and pray
after the game, and they huddleup and pray right there at the mound.
(04:18):
And you know, sometimes other teamswill join, sometimes they won't.
Well, you know, my wife, my wife and I are greatly engaged
in a Mission to Iran ELAM Missionto Iran, and when we first got
associated with it, in addition tohelping UH send smuggle Bibles into Iran,
(04:40):
we also scheduled the number of housemeetings home gatherings for the your audience to
come and speak in. One ofthem was at Patty's house. Wow,
Hey, do you know that whenthey won the national championship two years ago.
Out on the field, they playeda song from Casting Crowds called Nobody,
and that's the theme song for thisshow. And I thought, well,
(05:01):
that's perfect. Yeah, that wouldbe great if she'd come by because
I could tell her that. Butyou've never been able to get that job
done. So let me take over, pastor let me take over with my
new friend Jack. And you knowwhat, he told me that if I
paid for the airline ticket, he'dget her in studio. No, he
didn't tell me that about Colin Kathyand see if I can take some money
(05:26):
out of savings not supposed to lieon faith in the zone. Jack never
said that. Hey, Jack,thank you so much for a few minutes
of your time. And certainly wantto thank John Saucier from Team Jam who
introduced us, and what a goodman he is. He certainly has been
doing a great job, not onlyin Ohio but in Florida now and for
(05:48):
him to introduce us, I justthank him for that. Faithful brother,
faithful brother, and the Lord Amen, one hundred percent. Jack. Let's
talk about your your upbringing, yourbackground, where you grew up and how
you ended up in the beautiful stateof Oklahoma. Okay, Well, I'm
New York City boy born and bred. My first fifteen years there, and
(06:11):
it's interesting because I could not haveimagined a better life. You go outside,
you got a billion friends, You'replaying stickball, snup ball, punch
ball, slack ball. Every nowand then you throw in a whiffle ball,
and you could go anywhere. WhenI'm like eight ten years old,
I'm crossing highways, I'm taking theelevated trains and subways. It was just
a great life. I eventually gotinvolved in speech and debate and was third
(06:35):
in the city in speech and debate. I was part of a band and
some named it the best kid bandaround for that time, and so I
love life. And all of thatchanges. When I'm fifteen years old going
into my sophomore year, my familymoves from New York City to Long Island
(06:59):
and my my life is literally over. My new school doesn't have speech and
debate. I was planning on goingto college on a speech in debate,
scholarship and being a lawyer. Secondly, I'm the worst member of the best
kids band around, and there's noway I'm getting in a vand like that,
and I wind up selling all ofmy things and I am literally miserable.
(07:26):
And one day I'm in gym classand the gym teacher who happened to
be the assistant wrestling coach, comesup to me and he says, your
spats. I said, speak forthe wrestling team and I said no.
He said, well, your name'son the list. I said, I
didn't put it there. As itturned out, some friends of mine put
(07:48):
me on the list as a joke. They thought it would be funny.
I was five ninety pounds and theysigned me up for the wrestling team as
a joke. Wow, well,I have to tell you that that joked.
It turned your life around, myfriend, No, it absolutely did.
(08:09):
The coach talked to me and hesaid, watched mapping the team.
I said, I've never wrestled beforein my life. Truth is, I've
never seen any wrestling apart from ropesright, And he said, well,
we'll teach you. I said,I only weigh ninety pounds. He said,
we have weight classes. He taughtme into coming out. I went
home that night, I said,Mom, Dad, I'm out for the
(08:30):
wrestling to you, I found outyears later they got in bed that night
and went laugh. But because Iwas so empty, and because I was
so broken, I lunged into itinstinctively. We'd watch television at night.
(08:52):
I would do push ups and situp stern commercials. I started running,
I started lifting. My dad gotme a bench press, which I got
stuck under at seventy pounds and Ihad to call my mother. True story.
But I kept lifting and I woulddo everything. Eventually, my dad
we had an old, damp,dingy cellar in a rent house that we
(09:15):
were living in, and my dadput rug on top of rug on top
of rug in this damp, dingycellar, and now I have matts,
and so I'd called kids to comeover and wrestle with me. Any opportunity
I have walk around with rugburns.But two years later I was underfeated New
York State champ and third in thenation. So it it paid off,
(09:37):
and I am forever indebted to thesport of wrestling and to the Lord who
introduced me to it. One hundredand eighteen and eight College Slippery Rock University
eight. Oh, I bet youdo, I bet you do. I
wonder what uniform he's gonna put on. I you know what, I have
(09:58):
an idea, but I'm not quitesure. We'll get to that at the
end of the show. Hey,Jack, when you started having some success
as a wrestler, did that changethe way you felt about moving to Long
Island and going to a different school, And did you start fitting in a
little bit better there? Oh,my heavens, inside of six months,
(10:20):
I would have never gone back.And I just spoke with the team here
in Oklahoma, and I tell thatstory because there are a lot of kids
that are struggling with all sorts ofdifferent things, and things come into your
life and you think they are theworst things, and they turn out to
be the very best things. Andof course, if you're a foul of
Christ, God works all things togetherfor the good. So sometimes the things
(10:45):
that just seem like the worst thingsthat could happen turn out to be the
very best. Amen to that.Hey, when you got into coaching,
it looks to me like you beganyour coaching career at Baptist Bible College and
then you had six conference championships,and then you went out to serve as
(11:05):
assistant coach University of Pittsburgh and USMilitary Academy, then to Cornell. You've
had a lot of success as acoach. Was it difficult to leave some
of the places that you were at, like the Baptist Bible College. No,
that wasn't difficult. Actually, what'sinteresting about that is I just wanted
(11:26):
to get a year of Bible college. And the church that I was involved
in the pastor had gone to theBible College there, and he recommended that
Baptist Bible College in Clark Summit,Pennsylvania, and I called up. They
had a wrestling program, so Icalled up the ad. I had a
wife and a child, and Isaid, you know, I would need
some help. Is there a possibilityof getting some money and helping the team?
(11:48):
And he said yeah, And Iwent out there and he told me
while I was out there that Icould take my classes in the sense because
they had an alternative curriculum for peoplethat hadn't had any Bible college training.
The problem was most of the peoplehad, and even the ones that hadn't
(12:11):
had been in Bible teaching churches formany, many years. I didn't even
know the books of the Bible.Now, of course I knew a few,
but I didn't even know the booksof the Bible and so I'm my
first class is Old Testament class,and I am in shock because I think
it's Greek class. And the nextclass was Greek class. So it was
(12:35):
quite a challenge, but wrestling itwas a different level. But I loved
it. I loved the guys,you know, and we had we had
a lot of fun. We dida lot of ministry together and we had
good success. And then I wasout of I left there to do campus
ministry. The former president of thecollege in seminary had asked me the year
(12:56):
before to be a youth pastor andI declined, and then he had might
start a campus ministry, which Idid and absolutely loved it. But then
it's a very kind of separatistic group. And inside of really like nine months,
I think I was outside the doctrinalstatement and I could either shut my
(13:20):
mouth and keep doing what I loveor fess up knowing I was going to
be gone at about seven seconds.And that's what happened. Now. Having
said that, they were very graciousto me, they were very generous,
They loved me, but you know, their doctrinal statement was about a half
an inch wide, and so youknow, I had to move on,
(13:41):
you know, Jack, It's asmall world. My son actually was a
head soccer coach at Baptist Bible Collegeand Clark Summit. Yeah, for about
about six years, for about sixyears, I guess he's been out of
there for about probably five years now. He's down on and I guess at
Georgia and has started a soccer businesswith small children down there that God's using
(14:05):
him at. But uh, whenI saw that name, Keltner, Keltner
k E L T n e R. Mike, do you have that?
Okay, I know trust it wasthe head wrestling coach when I was the
assistant. I did all the coaching, teaching and recruiting and uh, but
(14:26):
he was also a soccer coach andthey named the soccer field after he and
Roger Jacobs, who were on tobecome doctor Pickering's son in law. So
good and godly people. They actuallyhonored me a few years ago, which
was amazing to me. But oncampus, and I'm really really impressed with
the work that Jim Lytele and othersare doing there. Yeah, small,
(14:52):
it is a small world. Andyou also coached at US Military Academy,
and another pastor's son is been inthe military. Kurt so there. It
is a small world. And uh, I coached some basketball for some aau
over at the University of Pittsburgh,So just a U, not just a
you. We brought a team thereand yeah and uh wow, yeah,
(15:16):
I didn't even know that. I'ma huge I really like Pittsburgh, like
I love it. I've been I'vebeen there a few times. Pittsburgh is
very much rejuvenated. Oh my good. It's beautiful when you come from the
airport through that tunnel and there arethe you know, the the three rivers
and the yellow bridges and yeah,it's, uh, just a beautiful town.
(15:37):
Hey, guys, we're gonna getto Yeah, we're gonna get to
a break. I apologize, coach. We're gonna get to a break.
Other side of the break, wewill continue our conversation. He is Jack
Space. He is Uh, I'mjust gonna say, the former wrestling coach
at University of Oklahoma. That's okay, Yeah, because you smile every time
I say it, every single time. If it was Universe we see Texas,
(16:00):
he wouldn't even be in the studio, Jack, Just so you know,
he wouldn't be in the studio.Well, he's a very discern yes,
yes, he is hey, Andlater in the show, I want
to talk to you about a bookthat you're in, the book Faith in
Wrestling and how the role of awrestler mirrors the Christian life written by Michael
(16:22):
Fessler, And you're actually in thatbook and I want to talk to you
a little bit about that. Inthe third segment, we'll ask our guests
for his testimony. On the otherside of the break again, he is
Jack Spates. He's the former headwrestling coach at the University of Oklahoma.
This is Faith in the Zone onthe Big nine twenty in your iHeart Radio
App. More now with Faith inthe Zone, discover how sports and faith
(16:49):
come together. Faith in the Zoneis brought to you by BIC Automotive.
Let's turn it back over to Mikemcgibb and Pastor Ken Keldner only Big nine
twenty and your right Heart Radio app. We welcome back to Faith in the
Zone on the Big nine twenty inyour iHeartRadio App. I'm Mike McGivern alongside
(17:11):
my co host, He's the best. Pastor Ken Keltner, the head pastor
from Brookside Baptist Church Slash Oklahoma.Our special guest man Jack Spates, He's
I wish people sometimes could hear whatwe talk about during the break. Maybe
not all the time, but sometimesJack Spates, the former head wrestling coach
(17:33):
at the University of Oklahoma. Yeah, during the break, Jack said,
Hey, Pastor, you ever getback to Oklahoma, he come stay with
me. Well, you know,I'll get the softball coach. Well we'll
go out and have lunch. PastorLake threw his headset down. He was
running to his carter start driving toNorman, Oklahoma. I love that,
(17:55):
Hey, Jack. This second segmentand I say this each and every week,
it's our favorite segment, and it'sa segment that we get asked about
the most when it comes to faithin the zone. And we asked our
guests to share their testimony, andif you would be so kind, surely,
always a joy for me to dothat. It's actually a two part
testimony. Sadly, but I wasborn and raised in New York City,
(18:21):
Catholic school for nine years, CatholicChurch for fifteen. There were seven kids.
When we moved out to Long Islandwhen I was fifteen. That was
basically the end of my religion becausein the city, you could walk to
school, walk to church. InLong Island, you couldn't walk anywhere.
My parents weren't it, couldn't takeus to school, and they really had
(18:44):
no interest in going to church.So that was basically the end of my
religion, except for Christmas Eastern andwhen I was in trouble, and when
I was a sophomore at Slippery Rock, that Slippery Rock State College. I
was home, I was red shirting. I was home at Christmas and a
guy I had met in the NewYork Athletic Club tournament called me up asked
(19:07):
me if I wanted to drive downthe Maryland with him and compete in an
open tournament. I said sure,and he knows what's coming. We stay
with the young married couple who assoon as we get there, start talking
about Jesus, and I'm like,let me out of here, Jesus freak
right, But they're really nice Jesusfrate so I'm not real shy. So
(19:30):
I begin to debate with him.I think I feel I've been told I
believe, And they keep opening upthe Bible and saying, but God's word
says, but Jesus says, butthe Bible says, And I was very
frustrated because I'd gone to nine yearsof Catholic school and I had never read
the Bible myself. Secondly, I'ma Christian, right, I mean,
I'm not Buddhist, I'm not Jewish. But these are Christians who actually love
(19:55):
Jesus, who want to study hisword or want to sing his praises,
who want to tell everybody about him. And I could not think of one
person I knew like that, exceptone time when I was in college.
I called on this apartment of fourgirls and I knocked on the door and
a voice said come on in.And I opened the door and they're all
(20:18):
sitting around on the floor with biblesand they're like, come on in,
and I'm like, that's okay,I'm God. So after this tournament,
I go back and I look upone of the girls and I was kind
of sheepish, and I'm like,would you happen, by any chance to
be born again? And she goesyeah. So I started going to fellowships,
(20:44):
I started going to the Bible studies, I started going to church.
I met with my priests, andafter that I knew that wasn't the answer.
That was my heart on it,and eventually surrendered my life to Christ,
and it was a huge transformation.Wound up leaving many people to the
(21:04):
Lord and walk with him for manyyears, and then very very sadly turned
my heart away from him for many, many years. And I will anticipate
your question as to what happened.Well, I would say a number of
things. I would say that oneseven day was a great experience in some
(21:30):
respects, and there were good andgodly people there. But I would also
say that a lot of it wasbased around knowing the Bible to prove everybody
else wrong. And we're in avery narrow group and we want to know
our Bibles. We want to youknow, and we want to know them
(21:51):
right. And that's a good thing. And there were those who understood it
properly to study the Word, tofeed your soul, to get to know
God better, to learn all aboutwhat He has done on or to happen
wants to do in and through us. But there is that pride and that
debating spirit which went along well withmy personality. It was it was at
(22:17):
the time, and it's changed significantly. It was very legalistic and a lot
of it was centered you don't dothis, you don't do that you don't
do. And of course and withthe understanding of you don't do these things
because God just knowing you just can'tdo them. And well, the scriptures,
as I understand it, have thingscalled explanatory guars that translated for four
(22:41):
four. And God is very graciousto explain why he doesn't want us to
sin, not just to you know, keep us from having fun. Okay,
God doesn't want us to sin,for sin will always bring rune,
brokenness, and bondage into the worldthat he loves and into the people that
(23:03):
he loves. And so I thinkmy understanding of sin was skewed. I
think I think I wound up approachinglife and even ministry. And this is
with good intent. It wasn't amalevolent plot, but the same way approached
my wrestling. I'm going to outworkand out think and outstudy and you know,
(23:26):
and have a successful ministry. Itwould have been better had I out
praised, you know. So whathappens. Now I have to leave and
I've always loved everything I've done,and now I just have to get a
job because I've got a wife andI think at the time now three and
(23:47):
a half children, okay, andI just have to get a job,
and I hate my job. Ihad grown up extremely sexually promiscuous, had
fought it mostly successfully, you know, as a new believer and as someone.
But now it's amazing for all myknowledge, what little understanding I had
(24:14):
in many respects, and I startgoing back to sexual sin in the things
I'm looking at, the ways I'mthinking, and then eventually the things I'm
doing. And what sin does isit caresses and feels good displeasure in sin
right for me, and then itgrabs on and it will lead you places
(24:36):
you never thought you would go,and keep you for far longer. And
what happens then is sin will blindyour eyes, dull your ears, and
harden your heart. You read aboutthese worship pastors and youth pastors and regular
pastors that are turning from the faith, my friends, that is not intellectual,
that is sin has gotten hold ofthem. And if I'm in a
(24:59):
room with them, to say,my friend, what sin has gotten the
hope to you? Okay, justyou gotta go one way or the other.
You can't do vote. You're eithergonna go with the Lord or you're
gonna go away for Lord. It'stoo miserable, you know, continuing on
while holding on to the Lord,and so I eventually turn away my heart.
I didn't play the game. Ididn't pretend like I'm a Christian when
(25:21):
I turned, I turned and walkedthat way for many, many years until
God, in his grace and mercybrought me back. Now do you want
me to go into that? Doyou want to sure? I do?
Yes? Please? Okay? Sopeople say, well, what brought you
back? Which many people had.I mean, this was seventeen years my
(25:42):
friends, okay, And I wouldsay, first the general futility of life.
And when I say that, it'snot that I wasn't enjoying life.
I've always been a cup half fullguy, and I didn't have a lot
to be unhappy about. I reallyloved my life. But if you ask
me even then, do you havepeace and rest and joy? I probably
(26:04):
would have burst out laughing because Iwould have known what you were talking about,
and I would have had to sayno, because there's a big difference
between the world's happiness and peace andrest and joy. Nothing was ever enough.
It's like a scratch an itch thatyou have to keep scratching. It's
like you're still reaching for your nextaccomplishment, or your next woman, or
(26:27):
your next and that I would say, that's the first thing. The second
thing God was working in my life. And first I had a heart attack.
And my heart attack didn't into restingme, and my heart attack didn't
make me run back to God,but it did make me grateful, and
I started saying thank you, thankyou. And then in the midst of
(26:52):
and my wife had left a numberof years before, which she should have
and did so, I believe biblically, And it's so tragic what sin has
done there and in the ruination ofa family, and and but anyway,
I have now all these girlfriends,and there's one in particular who loves me
(27:17):
desperately and is just hoping that oneday I will love her. But I
love me, and that's what Sinndoes. And eventually she leaves. And
that also, and I never woundup. I never thought i'd wind up
there. But it made me startthinking, who are you? Is this
what you are? Is this whatlife is? You're just going to go
(27:38):
from one person to another to anotherin the in the seeming endless cycle of
seeking to satisfy yourself. And andso I began to read different things,
and it's interesting. I read acouple other things. I knew immediately this
is not the answer. And Iwent back to the scriptures and I found
(27:59):
a great deal of there. ButI kept reading, and I started praying,
and eventually I made an appointment withthe pastor of a church and I
told them my story. I said, look, I said, I don't
consider myself a Christian. I said, by their fruits, you shall know
them. I said, but tobe honest with you, I wouldn't know
how to become a Christian. Becausesaid the best of my understanding, Even
(28:23):
now, I truly did sur endof my life, I truly did believe
in the Lord Jesus. And Isaid, but seventeen years, you know.
And here's what he said to me, whether right or wrong, Okay,
he said, you know this part'sright. He said, with you,
seventeen years, there is a longperiod of time, but with the
Lord, one day is a thousandyears. And he started quoting Peter,
(28:45):
which I knew, and I startedcrying, just a little bit, some
sniffles, And then he said,let me ask you a question. When
Christ died for your sins, howmany of them are future, all the
ones up to the point, well, he turned back on all the one's
period. I started sobbing in hisoffice. I'm the wrestling coach at the
(29:07):
University of Oklahoma, and I amsobbing in his office. And they're really
tears of joy because I know thatGod has me. And I think because
I was enamored with the world,because I used to think, and I
think a lot of believers do,or at least professing believers, that God
had the answer vertically, but horizontally. If you can live in the world
(29:29):
and then still be with God,that's your best bet. And that is
a life from the devil, andthat is so untrue. And I realized
that God has me, and Ithink because I was enamored with the world.
He took hands off. Okay,we read about, you know,
things like he turned them over.Turn them over and don't go taste of
(29:52):
this world, eat plenteously, seeand see how it goes. And it
did not go well. And Godbrought me back to my knees, for
which I am eternally grateful. Andfrom that time, I tell you for
me to live his Christ and dieHis gain, and I just try and
make my life count both for hereand eternity. Wow, our guest,
(30:17):
he is Jack Space. My goodness, I don't want to say he's the
former head wrestling coach University of Oklahoma. Is so much more than that pastor.
Oh Jack, Uh, you knowtalking about what the pastor was sharing
with you there, it's just sowonderful to know that when we come to
Christ, the relationship is a donedeal because he's the one who saved us.
(30:41):
But then you talked about our fellowship. That's that's dependent on us,
and that can look up and down, up and down, up and down,
even like a you know, somemajor graft that's up and down,
and that's because it's on us.But you know, I wake up every
morning, Jack, and I thankthe Lord number one that mercy enduras forever.
And it's because of his mercies.I'm not consumed. His compassions are
(31:04):
new every morning, and his faithfulnessis great. I'm just thankful in my
own life. He's been long suffering. I went to Bible College, got
out, and even taught in aChristian school, and the last thing I
wanted to do was be a youthpastor. I fought the Lord tooth and
now I'd had some bad youth pastorsin my life. I fought the Lord
tooth and now I was a miserableperson. I didn't you know my wife,
(31:25):
who I've been married to now fortyyears, was in our church.
I grew up with her, andI remember, man, I didn't want
to set with her. She hada great love for the Lord. I
was fighting the Lord. Didn't wantto do what the Lord wanted me to
do. And I had an olderman come up to me in the church.
He goes, what are you doing? Man? Sitting back here on
the back row. I know shedon't take communion. You're the woman you
need to be with. Upfront,has about five guys around her, and
(31:48):
I go, yeah, well,thank you, mister Dodd. I'm just
struggling away in my life right now. But I tell you, I come
back from ascogy Oklahoma. I gotplaying soccer with some guy. I love
soccer, but these guys didn't knowhow to play. And I'm just trying
to do anything get out of church. And I came back from a scogy
Oklahoma, weeping, saying God forgiveme. I have been fighting you and
(32:09):
Jack. I was a youth pastorfor about twenty years and now as a
pastor brooks out our youth guy leftand so for the last couple of years
I've been doing that. And soI man, I tell you, I
tell you, you know, theforgiveness of our Lord. I don't have
to accept Jesus, but man,I got to come back and ask his
forgiveness and that he will clean meup and put me back on the road
(32:31):
to keep going for him. Jack, I'm so happy. I'm so happy
that that when that man asked youthat question and brought you to tears,
that he was bold enough and hehad so much conviction that you're the head
wrestling coach at Oklahoma and this guyis able to take you, you know,
basically puts you to your knees witha couple of questions. And I
(32:52):
thank him for having the willingness tohave that conversation with you, Amen and
men. And one of the thingstoo, First of all, the Gospel,
of course means good news. Whatgood news. No matter who you
are or what you've done, youcan have the forgiveness of all of your
sins. I have people sometimes askme as I share my story, do
(33:15):
you live with shame and guilt?And I say absolutely, not. Christ
has borne my shame. He's bornmy guilt. Now I live with regrets.
There are a billion things. I'vealways been astonished by Hollywood starters who
will say things like they wouldn't changeanything. I'm like, seriously, do
(33:35):
you have a conscience? You so? And but their new beginnings with the
Lord, and what a wonderful thingthat is. And the other thing about
this is, I think there aremany believers, pseudo believers whatever, real
believers too, that think that theChristian life doesn't work. And it doesn't
(33:57):
unless by great through faith live it. If you're an unbeliever, or if
you're a believer, did he saidthat you're inviting sin in your life?
You can invite room brokenness and bondage, and then you're gonna be wondering,
like, God, how come allthis? I mean, this is happening.
God's way works, and when weunderstand that and we walk in that
way, that's when we really experiencethe life God is designed for us.
(34:22):
Yeah, you know, and Jack, you're so right, because religion has
made it so confusing, and soa lot of people, you know,
I look at him and they go, well, let me tell you,
there's a whole difference between religion andhaving a relationship with Jesus Christ, and
religion gives you some head knowledge youbelieve in God. The Bible says the
devil's believe in God. That's youknow. It has to go down.
It has to transfer from your headto your heart. Aymed, guys,
(34:44):
we've got to get to a break. He is Jack Spates, former head
wrestling coach at University of Oklahoma.He's We don't have time to tell you
how many Hall of Fames this guy'sdid, but he's in a few of
them. I can tell you thatgreat testimony. Jack, We're gonna get
to a break. Other side ofthe break, I have a couple of
questions for you, and then thatlast segment, we'll ask you all the
(35:06):
uniforms you've ever put on, whichone do you pull out to get one
more game or match? And we'llget that answer at the end. This
is Faith in the Zone on theBig nine twenty and your iHeart Radio apps
just all about sign say welcome backto Faith in the Zone, a show
(35:31):
about sports and faith and when thetwo come together. Faith in the Zone
is brought to you by Donovan andJorgensen, Heating and Cooling. Let's continue
with Michael Gibbons and Pastor Ken Kiltnanonly on the Big nine twenty and your
iHeartRadio App. Welcome back to Faithin the Zone on the Big nine twenty
(35:52):
and your iHeart Radio App. Weare coming from the Donovan to Jorgensen,
he didn't need Cooling Studios. Anyproblems with your h facs. My largest
employee owned HVAC company in the stateof Wisconsin. Like they did for me
this week, They'll take great careof you. Go to Donovan Jorgenson dot
com. I get more people thatwork there that asked me about the sponsorship
(36:15):
to Faith in the Zone and howexcited they are that their company is part
of this show. And I thankthe people at Donovan Jorgansy Cooley, our
special guest, has been a greatshow. He is Jack Spates, former
head wrestling coach at the University ofOklahoma. Hey, Jack, what is
your wife's name? Barbie with awhy, Barbie with a Y? And
(36:38):
I see four kids, A coupleof boys, a couple of girls.
Both boys were pretty good wrestlers.I see. Yeah. Now you have
to understand that that is sadly frommy first masses yep. I know that.
Yep, Barbie. Barbie and Ihave six children between us and eight
grandchildren. But you are right.My boys was wrestlers. Jeremy was third
(37:01):
twice in Oklahoma and an Oklahoma Statechamp and a Division one All American.
And Justin was runner up in Oklahomaas a sophomorets and a five time Junior
national champ and then two time PAState champ, ow of the State and
ow of the Dapper Damn Classic,which is the premiere All Star Media Country.
(37:22):
So yeah, yeah, good boys. Yeah yeah, you had to
enjoy watching them when when they wereon the mat. Hey doing research,
Jack, there was a book thatkept coming kept coming up in a number
of things that that I found whenI was doing research for this interview.
And there's a book called Faith inWrestling, How the Role of a Wrestler,
(37:44):
How a Role of a Wrestler Mirrorsthe Christian Life, by Michael Fessler,
And and you're in that book.And I'm wondering if on this show,
we've had guys that have had theconversation with Pastor and I pastors of
basketball athlete, a coach I coachedfor a long time, and we both
believe that as a Christian you couldbe really competitive on the field on the
(38:07):
court, because I always felt likeif we're super competitive and either beat him
or came close, guys would bewilling to pray with us after the game.
If we just threw the game andjust didn't put up any fight at
all, that would not happen.And I'm wondering about this book and the
idea of how a wrestler mirrors theChristian life. If in that book they
(38:30):
talk about being able to be aChristian and be competitive. Yes, So
Michael Fassler is a great writer.He's a godly young man. I don't
know how young he is anymore,but he's a lot younger than I am.
And he's a good friend. Andit's an excellent book. And the
answer to that is, oh,yes. If you look at our international
(38:53):
team with USA Wrestling, many ofthose guys, you know, top three
in each wait, many of thoseare faithful warriors for Christ. You know,
Kyle Schneider, Olympic gold medalist,Zane Retherford, Thomas Gilman. You
know, I could just go onand on. Uh, Joey McKenna,
(39:15):
Brandon Slay Olympic gold medalist, hasan incredible club outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
and so many of them are faithfulin fact, including at the Olympic
Trials and in the Olympics and atthe NCAA Championships, fingers up in the
air pointing to God. And intheir interviews they want to talk more about
(39:38):
Jesus than they want to talk abouttheir victories. And part of this is
learning to wrestle unto the glory ofGod, apart from the constraints and the
pressures of I've got to win,I've got to win, I've got to
win. No What's Colossians tell us, whatever you do, working it with
all your heart as working for theLord, not for men, since you
(40:00):
know you'll receive an inheritance in theLord's reward. So as we learn to
yield that, like all of life, to the Lord, we were able
to compete with a lot more freedom. Now there may be a question does
God want you doing this? MaybeGod wants you, you know, to
be spending more time in the worldand more time but and that's a different
(40:22):
issue. But the bottom line is, as you're competing, you know,
for the Lord on the match,you're also seeking to be faithful off the
mats in wrestling, not flesh andblood, but principalities and powers. So
done right. The Christian life bringsjoy and blessing in all areas of life,
(40:45):
even regardless of our circumstances. Youknow, my dad used to always
tell me, it's it's no disgraceto fail, but it's a sin.
If you do less than your bestand you're not failing, right, then
you're not Then you're being faithful.Yeah, and it's just you know,
you just didn't come out on topand points. Hey, hey Jack,
(41:06):
how about you miss coaching? OhI'm missed coaching. But I love my
life. We live crazy, crazy, busy lives. We're involved in a
church plant to the worst communities inNorman. I teach three Bible studies a
week. One is a zoom Biblestudy of men from fourteen states. You
(41:29):
can share it with any listeners,any men that want to take part of
it. But I teach six toseven out of every eight weeks, and
then we have guest speakers. MichaelFessler has been a guest speaker. Olympic
gold medalist Kyle Schneider, Brandon slayBen, and John Peterson. You guys
may be aware of they've all been. They've all been guest teachers, Frank
(41:51):
mal and Arrow, Joey McKenna,all these are great, great, great
wrestlers, but godly men. Hey, guys, we have to get to
a break because we are gonna beshort on time in that last segment.
Now, we gotta have Jack onagain. I mean this has been trust
me. Yeah, we we dohave to have Jack on and and UH
possibly have that author on as whileI'd like to get in contact with him.
(42:15):
He is Jack Spates. He's theformer head wrestling coach at the University
of Oklahoma, doing great work rightnow in Norman. And again I want
to thank John from UH I'll tellyou, yeah, from a team Jam
who set us up with this contact. And Jack has been just an incredible
(42:35):
guest. We will ask him thatquestion. What uniform you think you know
it, don't you? Yeah?I think so. All right, we'll
find out. This is SI.This his Faith in the Zone. I'm
the Big nine twenty in your iHeartRadio app. I'm just going back to
(43:00):
Faith in the Zone. Brought toyou by Donovan and Jorgensen, Heating and
Cooling, b I C Automotive andBrookside Baptist Church. Here's Mike McGivern and
Pastor Ken Kelder only on the Bignine twenty and you're right Heart Radio app.
Welcome back to Faith in the Zoneon the Big nine twenty and your
iHeart Radio app by Mike McGivern alongsidemy co host. Who who did they
(43:23):
say? Who? Who's your castor? Keutler from Brooks Side? Who is
that Mike's show man. I'll tellyou, Jack, my back hurts sometimes
from carrying this guy throughout this show. I'm only kidding. Our special guest,
Jack Spates, former head wrestling coachUniversity Oklahoma. And there's a lot
(43:44):
more if you google his name.Man a big time wrestler, big time
wrestling coach. Now he's maybe doingthe best work of his life in Norman,
Oklahoma. Hey Jack, this lastsegment, we always asked this question,
all the uniforms you ever put on, right from high school rest and
the college rest, of all ofthem, if you could put them all
(44:05):
in the closet, pull one outto get one match back, either because
it was the best match ever,or there was a loss there that you
were too happy about what you deformed. You pull out. Who do you
compete against and why I'm gonna askKen as Ken, which one for you?
Yeah, I would say it hadto been Slippery Rock. Yeah,
(44:27):
there's eight there's eight losses that maybehe would pull, but I'm thinking high
school. I'm going back to highschool. Okay, all right, Jack,
give us one. It's Slippery Rock. And it's the finals of the
Naas my junior year, and Iwas undefeated, and I'm in the finals
and had not had a close match. I was. I think my closest
(44:51):
match was five points. The guybeating the Semis had beat me pretty handily
the year before, and I beathim by five points or so in the
Semis. Now in the finals,I've got a great wrestler who had beaten
me the year before as well.And but this is this is almost bizarre.
I always had to get my kneetaped. It seemed a very bad
(45:15):
knee, especially my right one,and maybe maybe it took a little more
time. But we didn't go upin the wrestling room, and I didn't
warm up. I fell into thetrap of I feel good strong. Sometimes
as you warm up you feel alittle weaker. But trust me, you're
better off having warmed up, andcertainly having done what you always have done
(45:37):
every maac. You should be preparingthe same, warming up the same,
drilling, the same, thinking,the same, stretching all of that,
and I didn't. And as aresult, it's not that I lost,
okay, it's that it was aboring match, and that is my biggest
regret. It wasn't all out giveeverything. Now, he was a very
(46:00):
strategic wressler. I think he slowedme down and he beat me. But
it wasn't the loss. It wasthe way in which it was. It
was a very controversial takedown, whichthat's even not the issue. It just
wasn't a great match. I loseeleven to ten, I lose ten to
nine. That that's a whole differentstory. So I would do that over
(46:22):
again in a heartbeat. And he'sbecome a real good friend, so you
know, I respect him greatly andhe was a great wrestler. But it
was the way in which it cameabout that I wasn't proud of and didn't
wrestle with that complete freedom and aband then, not because I was nervous
or afraid. I just didn't warmup properly and wasn't ready to go all
(46:45):
out from the very West purse whistle. That's a great answer. Well you
were right on that one, Pastor. I thought he was going back to
Long Island or something. Then,guys, this is great. How old
are you? How old are you? How old am I? I'm getting
ready to turn sixty six? Okay, so you'll probably remember. I don't
know about Mike. He sounds likehe's about eighteen or so. In eighteen
(47:06):
nineteen, Hey, hey, Jacob, real quick. We got about thirty
seconds here go. Okay. Theyshowed that match on the Wide World of
Sports and they used a clip ofit in the commercial to throw a victory
the age defeat six months I wasthe agony of defeat. God is good.
He is Jack Space, what agreat guest. Former head wrestling coach
(47:30):
University of Oklahoma. Jack, thankyou so much for your time, Pastor.
It's great to see you. Yep, great, Thank you, Jack.
You got to have a good day. Guys. This is Faith in
the Zone. I'm the Big ninetwenty in your iHeart Radio app. Say
you've been listening to Faith in theZone, brought to you by brook Side
Baptist Church. Thought of it atJargonson Heating and Cooling and BIC Automotive Faith
(47:52):
in the Zone airs every Sunday morningat eight am only on the Big nine
twenty and your iHeartRadio app.
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