December 4, 2023 • 37 mins
“Language of the Heart” features Pastor Jason Krail from Recovery Centers of America who shines light on the stigma of addiction in our communities and the role spirituality plays in long-term recovery, including his personal inspiring journey. Host Loraine Ballard Morrill, Tony Luke and RCA industry-leading clinical expert, Dr. Pete Vernig, join the discussion while also emphasizing the importance of treating the whole family.
This podcast episode and others are available to watch in video format here www.RCARecovery360.com
Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
***Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
This podcast episode and others are available to watch in video format here www.RCARecovery360.com
Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
***Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Recovery threesixty, the podcast dedicated to exploring the
pathways to treatment and recovery, broughtto you by Recovery Centers of America.
I'm Lorraine Ballard Morral, director ofNews and Community Affairs for iHeartMedia, Philadelphia.
I am joined by Tony Luke Junior. Hi Lourie. Hello, another
show. I know this is awesome. I'm so excited. We're really helping
(00:29):
a lot of people. I hopeyou know, yeah, and we're thrilled
to be your guide on this journeytowards better understanding the world of healing and
the many ways individuals find their wayto recovery. In every episode, we'll
sit down with experts, survivors,and advocates in the field of treatment and
recovery. We'll unravel the complexities ofaddiction, mental health, and physical wellness
(00:52):
while shedding light on the diverse rangeof therapies, interventions, and approaches available.
In today's episode, we'll do adeep dive into the stigma attached to
addiction, as well as the roleof spirituality. Understanding and addressing stigma was
essential in creating more compassionate and effectiveapproaches to addiction. Prevention and treatment,
and joining us from Recovery Centers ofAmerica are doctor Peter Vernick, who serves
(01:15):
as vice president of Mental Health Services, and pastor Jason Craile Special Project.
Yeah, you know, Tony,I think this is such an important conversation
to have because stigma is one ofthe great barriers that prevent people from getting
involved in recovery. And as wetalk about spirituality, we're not talking about
(01:38):
necessarily organized religion, right, AndI know spirituality has been very important in
your life. It has. Imean, I don't think I would have
gotten through Tony's death, my sonif it wasn't for understanding the higher power,
understanding the journey that we are allon. And I think that the
stigma associated with addiction is the samestigma associated with mental health and trauma.
(02:06):
You know, words are very powerful, and I said this before, and
people are very affected by words.And at the risk of repeating myself because
I have said this before, Heroinetook my son's life, but the stigma
is what killed them. And Ihave made it my life's journey from then
(02:27):
on to combating the stigma because Ithink that that is the greatest arsenal that
addiction has in its toolbox is stigma, and we keep playing into it and
shows like this I'm hoping with everyfive of my being will help to eradicate
(02:49):
that stigma and let people understand thatthese are real human beings that are suffering
from an illness that is destroying themand their family. Well, let's talk
to our experts here. Maybe youcan share with us your idea of what
stigma is. What is it allabout? Doctor Pete, Absolutely, so,
you know stigma. One of themost important points that I always talk
(03:12):
about with stigma is something you alreadybrought up, Lorraine, the fact that
it is a barrier for people gettinginto treatment. Stigma isn't just unpleasant,
it's not just painful. It's notjust difficult for patients and families to deal
with. It actually is dangerous becauseit keeps people out of treatment. Just
imagine, you know, this inanother area of healthcare. Imagine cancer patients,
and imagine if our society told cancerpatients you should just sort of figure
(03:35):
this out on yourself. And imagineif cancer patients' families were told. And
it's probably their fault actually that thishappens. So you know, this is
something you want to keep quiet,keep it in the family, don't talk
about it. Imagine if the healthcare system told them the same thing,
and imagine people not getting life savingtreatment because of that stigma. That's what
people face in substance use treatment.They face being blamed for their illness.
(03:59):
They face being told that it's nota big deal and something that they should
just work out on their own.And they face being told that this is
a secret, shameful thing that theyshouldn't share with others. And as we've
talked about in here before, it'stalking about it, it's getting it out
there, it's having open dialogue.That's so important for people living with a
substance use disorder. So stigma issomething that is one of I think the
greatest barriers to treatment and care forpeople who live and struggle with substance use.
(04:24):
As to crall, how does itshow up? Yeah, So,
as a pastor in long term recoverymyself coming up on thirteen years following,
Yeah, I appreciate that. I'msorry for your loss as well. So
I know what it's like, youknow, as a heroin addict, I've
been in multiple prisons, I've beenin Falster care when I was younger for
a little bit, and so Iknow what that stigma feels like on a
(04:44):
personal level. And now that Igot sober for quite a while now,
and I even have this pastor titleto me, like, I take that
very serious. And to Tony's credit, it's like, you know, I
tell people where they're at. Imeet him where they're at. I don't
care what you believe in at thispoint of your life. Like, I
don't care if you believe in God, just believe in good. Just know
that I believe in you. Andlike when I come with that powerful message
of hope to somebody who's stuck inthe margins of society, you see the
(05:08):
light come on just a little bit. It doesn't matter where they're at in
their active addiction either, you know. I feel like for me, you
know, the God that I serve, I don't get to pick and choose
who I get the help, youknow, so I do know where people
are if they do have that stigmaattached to them. I think we've come
a long way right as far asthe stigma it's concerned. We still got
a long way to go, forsure, but from when I got you
(05:29):
know, so we're over a decadeago. You know, I think we
have made progress because the worst thingyou could do to somebody who is actually
feeling defeated in their life is tomake them feel even less than they already
do. So, like I alwayslook at people and I tell them,
you have intrinsic value no matter whereyou're at right now, you know,
and I know just from my ownpersonal experiences that there is hope and recovery
(05:50):
is real. But I think asfar as the stigma is concerned, we
need more people bringing awareness, absolutely, but we need more people tying up
their boots, right and like gettinginto the trenches with these people, you
know, like I could. Youknow, I know a lot about the
Bible obviously as a pastor. Noisthings they don't patients and people that are
stalked don't care about that right now. What they need is love and compassion
(06:13):
when everybody else around them has youknow, folded on them. So I
think that's like a pretty big partof decreasing the stigma right now. But
it will stigma one hundred percent willkeep people sick more than it will get
them. Well, that's just thecommon experience that we see. In addition,
recovery, Tony. One of myearliest memories is watching a movie about
marijuana, and it was just sosensationalized, and you know, you smoke
(06:40):
the marijuana. Next thing you know, you're you're shooting up heroin. So
there's so much in popular culture thatreinforces that image of the person who's in
addiction and such a negative point ofview, just really portraying that individual as
someone who made a bad choice ratherthan has an illness. Yeah, I
(07:03):
think we tend to forget that.And I'm guessing for everyone I've spoken to,
ninety percent of the people that arestruggling in active addiction are self medicating
a much deeper issue, and we'venever looked at it from that point of
view. And I think that wasalso a reason that helped perpetuate the idea
(07:26):
of the stigma, because we wereso concentrated on sobriety, sobriety, like
we never you know, you don't. The last conversation we had was a
great term that he used, Noone a doctor never tells someone come back
to me when you have stage fourcancer, and then I'll treat you.
(07:48):
And that was at the one ofthe podcasts we had done and that really
hit home for me, like itreally resonated with me. You can't tell
someone they shouldn't be eating all thatfood because now you're fat shaming someone.
So in our society, they're shamingfor everything except for the people that are
(08:11):
truly suffering and dying in record numbersfrom suicide and overdoses with mental health and
trauma and addiction. No one caresabout the shaming there, Like it's okay
to use the word junkie, it'sokay to say, well, it's your
fault. No one goes to someonewho has cancer and says, well,
(08:31):
if you didn't smoke or you didn'tdo this, then I don't feel bad
for you because you got cancer.You brought it on yourself. No one's
if someone were to say that,they would get destroyed. Yet people feel
it's okay to say that, andto treat people that are suffering with addiction
that's okay, Like that's acceptable.It's not. It is not acceptable,
(08:54):
and this is what we need toget out people. Well, doctor Vernick
demonizing addiction and has a long historynot only in popular culture but also our
government. Just say no. Thewhole all of the campaigns that the government
has been engaged in for these manydecades. I wonder if we can talk
more about how our culture and howour government has contributed to this stigmatization of
(09:20):
addiction. Well, for a longtime, substance use disorders as well as
mental illness, these were seen asthings that are a character flaw or weakness
or a spiritual deficit. And absolutelythere is a spiritual component to a substance
use disorder and to recovery. Butit's not that a person is wrong or
has failed and needs to make upfor that failure. But these old beliefs
(09:41):
really pervaded the field for such along period of time and hundreds of years
of belief that this is something thatsomeone's done to themselves, or a choice
that they've made, or the consequenceof their behavior that doesn't go away immediately,
which I think is where a lotof this comes from. And as
you pointed out, this has gottencaught a fe as well into our laws,
into the way even that our insurancereimbursement system works. So when you
(10:05):
look at things, you know,anti drug programs like just say no,
you know, which I certainly believenobody you had negative thoughts at the time
nobody wanted to, you know,create something that wouldn't be helpful. But
the idea that the problem was justas easy as, oh, you know,
just just say no to a substancethat has taken control of a person's
life and that has created physiological dependenceand symptoms, and that they may be
(10:28):
using to medicate pain or depression,anxiety trauma. The idea that we could
just say no to that, orjust make the decision immediately, flippantly,
right off the bat, to changethat without any support, you know,
sort of belies that idea that itis a choice somebody is making. So
everywhere from drug policy to some ofthe laws surrounding substance use in the past
have not been focused on treatment foryeah, exactly focused on incarceration. They're
(10:54):
focused on criminalizing as opposed to gettingpeople into treatment. And you know,
to your point, Pastor, thatstarted to change, and it's really wonderful
to see recovery courts and diversion programsand starting to see the legal system look
at it as a medical issue,not as a failing of the person,
or this is somebody who needs ourpunishment and our scorn. This is somebody
(11:18):
who needs help that's right. Ilove what Tony was saying because you know,
even like before I started abusing substances, my home life was absolutely terrible
for any child to grow up.And that's just you know, and I'm
you know, know who I amtoday, so I know what I'm not.
But at the time, I wasjust a scared little kid because I
lived in this violent home. Youknow, my father eventually passed away as
livers started giving away and things likethat. But you know, when I
(11:39):
first started abusing substances, I wasn'tlike, all right, I'm going to
smoke this, you know, weedor whatever and wind. I didn't like
fast forward and think, oh,well, you might be under the Somerset
Bridge one day shooting heroin, right, So like, it wasn't like that.
And it wasn't necessarily what the drugsdid to me. It's what they
did for me. Because I wasalready suffering from some trauma in my home.
I didn't have nowhere to turn atleast I felt that way. And
(12:01):
if I felt like, especially inmy neighborhood and with my family, if
I would have assault helped somewhere else. My mom was a saint, but
she couldn't help me as much asI needed to be helped, but I
felt like there was some stigma evenwithin the home dynamic. I really believe
that a lot of this stuff comesfrom the past that we've been through in
order for us to really get downto the causes and conditions. You know,
the substance was just what I startedusing, but the underlying symptoms extend
(12:24):
way past that. And to doctorPete's message, it's so true. I
got caught up in the system atan early age. And we're talking about
substance abuse disorder. I've had itfor sure, but we're talking like minor
offenses. And then it turned intoa felony. And then the felony I
couldn't walk off probation to save mylife because I couldn't stop using. And
(12:46):
they would ask me to come tothe probation department. What would I do.
I wouldn't show up. Why becauseI know I can't, you know,
pass the drug test, so Iwouldn't go. I don't want to
waste anybody's time. And then whenthey caught me, I would do a
whole year for absconding, a wholeyear when really I I couldn't stop shooting
heroin and I just needed help,but yet they put me away. And
you know, I'm grateful for allthe things that I've been through in my
(13:07):
past because it's made me what Iam today. But you know, I
do think that there's better ways,and I do think, you know,
not to get off on a teamsabout government stuff, because I do believe
the system is designed especially to keepmental health and people from substance use disorder
in chains. Like I do feellike it's like that, because the recidivism
is just insane. Yeah, it'sterrible. What are some of the common
(13:28):
stereotypes associated with addiction and how doyou perceive them to contribute to this stigma.
I say one hundred percent of that. People like talk down on people
and say that they're a failure,that they're not they're never going to be
able to get this. You know, my mom, I have two older
brothers and none of us were boyscouts. I'll just tell you that.
All right, we're all good now, praise God for that. But we
(13:50):
weren't boy scouts. We're heavy inthe streets. So my mom developed this
tough love mentality. Looking back,yeah, it's served its purpose hundred percent.
I wouldn't be here today. Ifif it wasn't for a mother's love,
and if a mother's love could havekept me sober, you would have
a different speaker right now. Solet me just start off by saying that.
But I don't think she understood howto deal with that either. She
would just tell me to get outand leave, Like you know, nobody
(14:11):
wants somebody like me around them.The only problem she had is she had
me in her house, right.But I think as far as that's concerned,
people look down as a moral failure, and it's absolutely not. I
agree that there's many different ways torecover and all that. I don't have
a monopoly on this thing. Ido not. I just try to love
people and meet and where they're at. But I will say, you know,
(14:31):
as far as it's like for me, it's like a mental health disorder
that we have going on in ourcountry and it's shooting up crazy. If
you look at the numbers right now, it's it's not stopping. There's no
in insight, addiction treatment is onlybarely scratching the surface. The recidivism rate,
even in addiction treatment is scary becausewe're trying to treat this disorder that
(14:52):
is. It's kind of hard.And I let doctor Pete speak on that
a little more. He's a littlebrighter than me when it comes to that.
But I do think as far aslike the available ability of people,
I think we can only heal andonly get better if we look at other
people as people. They're having ahuman experience. Yeah, thank you,
Yeah, yeah, you know.I have to I have to admit words
are so powerful. Right, Andthis was years ago, but I don't
(15:16):
know if for people who live inPhiladelphia. Emerald Street was a place where
there was an encampment and I wascovering a rally, an anti drug rally,
and I went down there and Iwas doing like Facebook live and I
used the word junkie because I didn'tknow any better, right, and then
someone live streaming said Lorraine, don'tuse that word. And right then and
(15:39):
there I was caught short. Isaid, oh, you know what,
that's right, I shouldn't be usingthat word because by the definition, that
word has negativity attached to it.Right, it's to say someone has substance
use disorder. Takes all of thestigma away from the world. There's so
many different words that we have forpeople who have substance use disorder, right,
(16:02):
and a lab vast majority of themare negative. Sure, and so
the language is so important. Andso when I learned to use substance use
disorder, I also felt inside ofme a shift in my own attitude.
Right, And so words are soso important now, Doctor Vernig, how
(16:23):
about addiction stigma? And Pastor Kraletalked about it a little bit because certainly
within your family there were certain attitudesand certain opinions about where you were at,
and that influences their behavior and relatingto the person who has the substance
use disorder. So tell us moreabout how stigma really impacts the family and
(16:47):
the loved ones of individuals struggling withsubstance use disorder. Well, one of
the things that stigma does is isolates. It isolates the family from the supports
in the larger community, and itcan isolate the person from the family.
So the belief that the person hasmade the choice for themselves, the idea
of you know, even just thelanguage like you talked about using words like
junkie or clean, where the oppositeof clean is obviously dirty or wrong,
(17:11):
or you know, looking at somebodyliving with the substance use disorder as being
the other or being less than issomething that closes off communication or it limits
that communication with family members. Soif this is something shameful, this is
our shameful family secret. It's somethingwe communicate about quietly. It's something we
communicate about in the shadows. It'snot something that should be out there in
(17:32):
the world. And if we're keepingit really close in it and tightly together,
then we're much less likely to getthose other supports that we need for
the family, for the individual whois living with the disorder themselves. So
what it does is it's such anisolation and substance use disorder is an isolating
disorder to begin with. It's somethingthat cuts people off from society, from
family, from hope, from support, and to have this additional layer of
(17:56):
isolation in place is something very harmful, harmful for people, harmful for families,
and harmful for the communities that theylive in. Yea, you brought
me back to my you know,and my active use with my own mom.
Who's you know, like I said, shout out to Judy. She's
a saint lover and you know IAddiction is one hundred percent of family disease
there's no doubt. It's such afamily disease. And like I always say,
(18:18):
like when we talk about in recovery, especially in addiction treatment, we
talk about treating the whole person.But if you're not actually treating the family,
you're not actually treating the whole person, right, because you got to
take it from the person to thefamily. And then even more is in
the community. You got to beable to give this person, you know,
great treatment and keep the family componentbecause unfortunately, when I started using,
(18:40):
things started getting missing. Right,that's just the facts. You know.
I'm not proud of that whatsoever.But my mom, you know,
I would take anything from her,But think about this. I took money,
absolutely, I stole from her,but I also stole pride. I
also stole sleep. I don't knowhow many times that her and my stepfather
stayed up at the arguing about meas their kid, right, stuff that
(19:03):
I can never actually give back.So when I come home and I'm saying
I'm gonna do better, my momwas like, yeah, sure, we'll
believe it when we see it.And even just that, I'm like,
huh, you know, I boughtthat. That's what I told myself.
But truth be told. It isa family disease, and if you're not
treating the whole person and the wholefamily, the chances of recovery drastically are
reduced. That has proven time andtime again. The stigma makes it almost
(19:27):
impossible to treat the family because they'reso petrified of someone finding out. Because
we're we're drilled in the They drilledin your head that the weakness of someone.
You don't want someone thinking that yourchild is weak, or your child
is dirty, or your child andthey don't know. Hey, look,
(19:52):
I'm telling you right now. Ialways tell it exactly the way it is.
I was that person that was like, why can't you just up?
And then you don't get it untilyou get it. And I always say,
you don't know what you don't knowuntil you know it. So but
then again, I'm going to throwsome blame out there too, social media,
to the regular media and in thepast, okay, there are leaps
(20:18):
and bounds now better, okay,But in the past, those people that
were involved in who you trusted withyour child to help them or your loved
one were abusing and taking advantage ofthem. So it was all of this
mounting up and the people don't knowwhere to go. They don't know.
(20:41):
There's no handbook on it, there'sno absolute work. Like you said,
there's no one size fits all.But if there's an open discussion where you
can listen and speak freely and tryto understand, eventually you may speak to
someone who hits a nerve on whatyou're dealing with or has been through what
(21:02):
you were going through that makes senseto you to pull you out of that.
And you're right, Look, life, life is hard, okay,
and you know people can become weakfrom it because it's easy to be beaten
down, very easy. It's hardto stand up. And when you do
stand up, God bless your strength. But know that there are a lot
(21:22):
of people don't have that kind ofstrength and they need you to help stand
them up. And that's where weneed to get. Families need to let
go of this image and stigma thatthey're dealing with and be open. And
I think that that's the first lineof actually helping people that are in active
addiction and that are struggling when theyknow that their family is not ashamed of
(21:47):
them, because they feel ashamed,and that is a cycle that just keeps
going round and round and we justkeep losing people. Yeah, we should,
definitely. And I was also sayto that, you know, you
bring up a point when I dealwith families, because I deal with them
a lot, and I love that, right. I think it's it's so
important. You see, like twoextreames, ones like I'm kicking this person
(22:07):
out of my house, get out, I don't want to ever speak to
them again, and then the otherone is like loving them to death almost
right, It's like, no,we need to fix them. Well,
the truth is they can't, right, that's the truth. And I think
that there's something called we always missthis as healthy boundaries, right, and
it's different for each person. See, I don't want to ever try to
praise such an intimate situation with afamily. I've had enough of the problems
(22:29):
on my own family. You know, I'm a father of three now with
a wife. I feel like I'mdoing a good job. I'll let my
wife say as you know, I'lltell you that. But you know,
I really think that these things calledhealthy boundaries, like we're going to help
you up until this point, butif you're going to be doing that,
we can't or whatever. It's goingto be different for each person. But
like Tony was saying, the lastthing you want to do is you know,
(22:51):
condemn this person. That's what yousee across the board. And even
with social media and all these otherthings. You should see some of these
websites and people posting different things,what they're called these human beings. Yes,
people don't care how much you knowuntil they know how much you care.
And best idea wins where I comefrom, right, it doesn't matter
who the messenger is. I don'tcare if I want to post and I
(23:12):
want people to live. Right,that's like my whole position on recovery and
life in general. And you can'tdo that unless you get compassionate. And
we all have to be compassionate tothe person who's still stuck in the margins
of society. I think that's suchan incredible point because there are many sites
that come out of Kensington where they'reshowing people an active addiction, shooting up,
(23:33):
nodding out, all those things,and it's almost like a kind of
porn in a way because people arefascinated by it. But again, you're
looking at someone in a very judgmentalway, and that's not cool at all.
I wonder if we can talk aboutthose boundaries. I love what you
just said about that, and maybewe can explore that a little further,
(23:56):
the healthy boundary part, because Ithink, you know, it's Tony and
your mom. You know, we'resaying, you know, like you gotta
do this. You love your child, but it's do or die, or
you get clean or you get outall those different things that people go through
as parents, and I wonder ifwe can talk about those healthy boundaries.
(24:18):
I like that phrase because it putsit in a whole different context. I
think that the pastor made a verygood point about the fact that it's not
one size fits all. So youknow, I wouldn't want to be prescriptive
in the same way that I wouldn'ttell two people living with a substance use
disorder that they have to do thesame thing to recover, and recovery always
is going to look the same wayfor families. It's not going to look
the same because different families have differentconcerns, they have different situations, they
(24:41):
have different backgrounds. But I thinkthat when it comes to healthy boundaries,
what we're talking about is that we'regoing to provide support, We're going to
provide love, and caring for theperson, but also and I'm a little
bit leary of using the word butnot enabling. And the reason why I'm
leary of using the word is thatI think that not enabling it's thrown around
very easily and has actually been usedin a very stigmatizing way in the past.
(25:04):
But when we talk about not enabling, we simply talk about how we're
going to provide positive support for theperson, but we're not going to inadvertently
do things that encourage them to continuetheir pattern. And you know, when
we look at the way that ourbehavior affects another person, we can never
know that for sure ourselves. Imean, we are so in it every
(25:25):
day that the words that I use, the language I use, the way
that I talk, how that affectsanother person close to me, how it
affects my loved ones, my familymembers, my friends. I'm never going
to be able to see that becauseI'm in that relationship. I'm right there
in that interaction. But being ableto get that outside view of you know,
when you say get cleaner, getout, as you said, that's
not actually helpful. That doesn't makethe person want to change their behavior.
(25:48):
It actually makes them more resistant,it might make them feel less likely talking.
Yeah, it creates inferiority, andit reduces them and reduces what they're
going through or that they're trying toJust as you put it, love them
to death that they all they wantto do is provide support and whatever you
need, I'm going to do andeverything that you want I'm going to give
you that you know, on theother end of the spectrum, that's not
helpful either. But if you thinkabout our relationships and parenting and friendships and
(26:14):
all interpersonal relationships in general, it'sthe same way. You don't want either
one of those two extremes where somebodyis closed off to others and making demands
and insistent versus if they're giving inand not giving feedback and just acquiescing to
everything. So, you know,it's sort of a microcosm of our relationships
in general. As a father parent, everything that you said I one hundred
(26:38):
percent agree with, But there aresome real life facts that have to be
understood when you're looking at your child, especially as a parent, and you
know that if you give them moneyas they're begging for money because they're in
so much pain, that you couldget a phone call that they're dead.
(27:03):
But if you hold back that moneyand you don't give them that money,
you can get a phone call thatthey went out and they did whatever they
needed to do to get the moneyand they're dead. So as a parent,
you're put in an impossible situation becausethere is no answer that gives you
(27:26):
any hope that the phone call won'tcome. Because everyone is living every day
with someone who is struggling waiting forthe phone call to come. I need
to ask you how does spirituality playa role in not only addiction recovery and
rehabilitation, and also what are someof the common spiritual or religious support systems
(27:52):
and addiction treatment and recovery that youcan talk about. Because I said earlier
spirituality was something that saved me.Without it, I don't know what I
have done, But that's me asan individual. What are your thoughts on
that. I always look at,like as a Christian pastor, right,
like, that's that's what I follow. But I also look at people that
(28:15):
don't believe in the same thing asme. Right there's a message in the
Bible that says take the log outof your eye before you judge somebody else's.
And I got a pretty big onemost days. You know, I'm
an extra grace required kind of pastor. So like, I have no room
to judge anybody, point blank,period the end. But I'll say as
far as like the role that spiritualityhas played in my life and faith,
so I would talk about faith,faith and reason aren't so far apart as
(28:37):
some people think that they are.Right. It takes some faith to have
reason and reason to have faith,right, So like, that's what you
gotta work on with people in recovery. It's like, well, I don't
believe in nothing. Well, weall believe in something that is true,
Like I have said it before,whether you believe in God, or you
just believe in the power good,or you believe that the sun's going to
rise tomorrow. We all have faithin something or someone. It wouldn't be
(29:00):
life if we didn't. So that'sfirst and foremost. I meet people where
they are. But the role thatit played in my life, I can't
minimize what it's done for me.You know, I serve a radical God
personally, and he radically has changedmy life. And he sends me back
into the margins to get these peoplethat are sick broken. This disease wants
to kill you. I mean,it is a life and death arned.
There's no doubt. You know.I passed away three times from my disease
(29:22):
and I was brought back to lifeprior to the fetanyl thing that came out.
If fatanyl was around right now,you would have a different speaker.
Definitely. There was no chance thatI was going to do it after a
decade of ivy on and off fora decade of ivy heroin use. But
the role that faith, Like Ihave faith every morning, right, I
wake up and I hit my kneesand I ask the God of my understanding,
my higher power, allow me tobe helpful to somebody else. It
(29:45):
gives me a sense of purpose.See, that's what we're all searching for,
is this sense of purpose. AndI'm not telling. I don't tell
the people that I'm working with orhelping or whoever to follow me to my
church. I don't do that,right, I just I don't like do
I want them to? Of coursethat's horror. I'm a pastor. But
as long as they're following something rightand not your old way of life.
See, I see faith take theold and make something new as Tony alluded
(30:10):
to the faith in you know,his God and his higher power has helped
him through a lot of things too. And even people that just don't believe
in that faith in something is there. I promise you it's an essential component
to life itself. I always havefaith in the wrong things. Today I
have faith in the good things oflife and has given me my primary purpose
to go help other people that don'thave any faith. There's people that are
(30:33):
stuck in Kensington one hundred percent rightnow that don't have faith in anything except
wanting to die and to come andactually motivate people like that and stand beside
them. And it's not just asyou know, take a picture like you
were saying. I mean, that'sjust the minute you start magnifying that their
complor I mean, it's ridiculous.Yeah. But if you get down there
and don't use the phone and youjust use your you know, language,
like you said, words matter,and you let them know that you care.
(30:56):
But more importantly, you're not doneyet. I'm gonna be here tomorrow.
How about this tomorrow. I wantto be there there. It shows
that you actually have faith in them, and now they start to build upon
that faith as far as institutions,I mean, obviously there's so many different
twelve step meetings out there for people. There's people that don't believe in God
that has some type of twelve stepwork, the Buddhist path and all these
other things, and it gives youa sense of community, right, So
(31:18):
it's not just go to church orany of these other things. But once
you get part of a community ofpeople who are like minded, who's been
through the things that you've been through, but more importantly, they know the
way out, now you actually havea sense of belonging and we're all trying
to do that. So I alwaysfelt like the disease is mental. Physical,
obviously we have this physical factor,and of course spiritual. So we
need to treat all three of thesewith other people who has been through the
(31:41):
process before, that knows the process, that actually genuinely care from the bottom
of their heart right that they're goingto be with you every step of the
way. The way I've heard thatexplained best is that it's something outside of
oneself that could be a God thatthey believe in. It can be a
religion, spirituality, it can bea fellowship of individuals come together, a
community it can be family, butit's something more than oneself. It's something
(32:04):
outside, it's something supportive, andit's something that they can rely upon when
they need it, because people doneed it. Yeah. Absolutely. You
know, I may say something thatmight be unpopular, but I do that.
So spirituality for me, religion,I believe with every fiver of my
being. There's no religion on theother side. We made it. That's
(32:29):
just my personal opinion, okay.And I do have a very strong faith
and I strongly believe in God.But when you use religion and even spirituality
as a crutch to hold yourself up, you will fall because the first person,
the first one that matters, thefirst belief that you have to have,
(32:52):
is in you. Because when youhave faith and belief in you,
spirituality and even religion, if that'swhere you are now, becomes part of
you, not the crutch that you'reusing to stand on. It becomes part
of your makeup. So I alwaystell people I get all the twelve step
(33:15):
like, I get all of that, and I understand it, but please
understand that you need to believe inyou first before spirituality or any religion that
you believe in can make a differentit's not a crutch. It is supposed
to be part of who you are, and it can't be if you don't
(33:37):
believe in you in the end,whether you believe in a higher spirit,
God, go to church, don'tgo to church, go to temple,
don't go to temple. It allboils down to love, righte. Love,
you know, that's the common denominatorin all of the positive things that
spirituality can bring to us. AndI love what you said, Pastor Crole.
(34:00):
I love your journey. I lovethat you're here to share with us
your own story because your story isan inspiration. I appreciate that. Yeah,
I'm blessed to be here. Imean, it's an important topic.
And you were, Me and Tonywere talking prior to this, and it's
about the language of the heart,right, it really is language of the
(34:21):
heart. I like that. It'sso important to have when you're speaking to
somebody just in life. Right,Like I'm not just a pastor for people's
abusing substances. I'm a real pastor, like God is my God has put
me in a position to be helpfulto all people. I always have an
open door policy, you know,I mean, God forbid, I don't
reach out and help somebody. I'vebeen blessed with this life beyond measure.
(34:42):
There's just saying from an old pastorthat I really love, and I actually
use it as like a pillar inmy own life and in my own walk,
and when I'm dealing with people whodon't necessarily believe in what I do,
and that's fine. We can alwaysagree to disagree. I don't know
what happened in our culture where it'slike, well I don't agree with that,
but it's okay, I love youanyway. I don't. I don't
understand that. Yeah, I don'tknow what happened. But this pastor,
he's been long since deceased, butI listened to him all the time.
(35:05):
Sm Lockwerds. I'll give you aquote, but he says, you can
have a pocket full of pearls,but without string, you're never going to
have a necklace. Now, Now, every single person, whether you're in
substance abuse or not, just humans, we're all having a human experience unfortunately,
right sometimes it's unfortunately life gets lifey. Every person is a pearl in
his or her own right. Butif we don't come together as a whole,
(35:29):
as a humanity, This extends pastmental health and all these other things,
but especially mental health. If wedon't come together as one as a
human relating to another human, we'renever going to be effective in anything that
we're doing. Beautiful doctor Vernig.If people want more information about recovery centers
of America, where do people go? If anyone's interested in learning more about
(35:51):
recovery centers of America, you cango to the website RCA Recovery three sixty
dot com or call our toll freenumber eight four four two five. Recovery
Recovery three sixty isn't just about storiesof survival from substance use disorder. It's
a resource for those seeking answers,support and hope. Whether you're personally navigating
(36:13):
the challenging terrain of recovery or you'rehere to learn how to be a better
ally, this podcast is a sourceof information, inspiration, and empowerment.
Well, I like to thank doctorPeter Vernig, vice President of Mental Health
Services, and pastor Jason Crale.And remember, I want to leave you
with one thing. The most importantthing I hope you get out of this
(36:34):
podcast today is love yourself. Because, believe it or not, there are
people that love you even when youthink that there is amen. Yeah,
beautiful way to end this, sosee you next time. Thank you all
for joining us today, Thank youboth for having us. Thank you I A
Hello, and welcome to Recovery threesixty, the podcast dedicated to exploring the
pathways to treatment and recovery, broughtto you by Recovery Centers of America.
I'm Lorraine Ballard Morral, director ofNews and Community Affairs for iHeartMedia, Philadelphia.
I am joined by Tony Luke Junior. Hi Lourie. Hello, another
show. I know this is awesome. I'm so excited. We're really helping
(00:29):
a lot of people. I hopeyou know, yeah, and we're thrilled
to be your guide on this journeytowards better understanding the world of healing and
the many ways individuals find their wayto recovery. In every episode, we'll
sit down with experts, survivors,and advocates in the field of treatment and
recovery. We'll unravel the complexities ofaddiction, mental health, and physical wellness
(00:52):
while shedding light on the diverse rangeof therapies, interventions, and approaches available.
In today's episode, we'll do adeep dive into the stigma attached to
addiction, as well as the roleof spirituality. Understanding and addressing stigma was
essential in creating more compassionate and effectiveapproaches to addiction. Prevention and treatment,
and joining us from Recovery Centers ofAmerica are doctor Peter Vernick, who serves
(01:15):
as vice president of Mental Health Services, and pastor Jason Craile Special Project.
Yeah, you know, Tony,I think this is such an important conversation
to have because stigma is one ofthe great barriers that prevent people from getting
involved in recovery. And as wetalk about spirituality, we're not talking about
(01:38):
necessarily organized religion, right, AndI know spirituality has been very important in
your life. It has. Imean, I don't think I would have
gotten through Tony's death, my sonif it wasn't for understanding the higher power,
understanding the journey that we are allon. And I think that the
stigma associated with addiction is the samestigma associated with mental health and trauma.
(02:06):
You know, words are very powerful, and I said this before, and
people are very affected by words.And at the risk of repeating myself because
I have said this before, Heroinetook my son's life, but the stigma
is what killed them. And Ihave made it my life's journey from then
(02:27):
on to combating the stigma because Ithink that that is the greatest arsenal that
addiction has in its toolbox is stigma, and we keep playing into it and
shows like this I'm hoping with everyfive of my being will help to eradicate
(02:49):
that stigma and let people understand thatthese are real human beings that are suffering
from an illness that is destroying themand their family. Well, let's talk
to our experts here. Maybe youcan share with us your idea of what
stigma is. What is it allabout? Doctor Pete, Absolutely, so,
you know stigma. One of themost important points that I always talk
(03:12):
about with stigma is something you alreadybrought up, Lorraine, the fact that
it is a barrier for people gettinginto treatment. Stigma isn't just unpleasant,
it's not just painful. It's notjust difficult for patients and families to deal
with. It actually is dangerous becauseit keeps people out of treatment. Just
imagine, you know, this inanother area of healthcare. Imagine cancer patients,
and imagine if our society told cancerpatients you should just sort of figure
(03:35):
this out on yourself. And imagineif cancer patients' families were told. And
it's probably their fault actually that thishappens. So you know, this is
something you want to keep quiet,keep it in the family, don't talk
about it. Imagine if the healthcare system told them the same thing,
and imagine people not getting life savingtreatment because of that stigma. That's what
people face in substance use treatment.They face being blamed for their illness.
(03:59):
They face being told that it's nota big deal and something that they should
just work out on their own.And they face being told that this is
a secret, shameful thing that theyshouldn't share with others. And as we've
talked about in here before, it'stalking about it, it's getting it out
there, it's having open dialogue.That's so important for people living with a
substance use disorder. So stigma issomething that is one of I think the
greatest barriers to treatment and care forpeople who live and struggle with substance use.
(04:24):
As to crall, how does itshow up? Yeah, So,
as a pastor in long term recoverymyself coming up on thirteen years following,
Yeah, I appreciate that. I'msorry for your loss as well. So
I know what it's like, youknow, as a heroin addict, I've
been in multiple prisons, I've beenin Falster care when I was younger for
a little bit, and so Iknow what that stigma feels like on a
(04:44):
personal level. And now that Igot sober for quite a while now,
and I even have this pastor titleto me, like, I take that
very serious. And to Tony's credit, it's like, you know, I
tell people where they're at. Imeet him where they're at. I don't
care what you believe in at thispoint of your life. Like, I
don't care if you believe in God, just believe in good. Just know
that I believe in you. Andlike when I come with that powerful message
of hope to somebody who's stuck inthe margins of society, you see the
(05:08):
light come on just a little bit. It doesn't matter where they're at in
their active addiction either, you know. I feel like for me, you
know, the God that I serve, I don't get to pick and choose
who I get the help, youknow, so I do know where people
are if they do have that stigmaattached to them. I think we've come
a long way right as far asthe stigma it's concerned. We still got
a long way to go, forsure, but from when I got you
(05:29):
know, so we're over a decadeago. You know, I think we
have made progress because the worst thingyou could do to somebody who is actually
feeling defeated in their life is tomake them feel even less than they already
do. So, like I alwayslook at people and I tell them,
you have intrinsic value no matter whereyou're at right now, you know,
and I know just from my ownpersonal experiences that there is hope and recovery
(05:50):
is real. But I think asfar as the stigma is concerned, we
need more people bringing awareness, absolutely, but we need more people tying up
their boots, right and like gettinginto the trenches with these people, you
know, like I could. Youknow, I know a lot about the
Bible obviously as a pastor. Noisthings they don't patients and people that are
stalked don't care about that right now. What they need is love and compassion
(06:13):
when everybody else around them has youknow, folded on them. So I
think that's like a pretty big partof decreasing the stigma right now. But
it will stigma one hundred percent willkeep people sick more than it will get
them. Well, that's just thecommon experience that we see. In addition,
recovery, Tony. One of myearliest memories is watching a movie about
marijuana, and it was just sosensationalized, and you know, you smoke
(06:40):
the marijuana. Next thing you know, you're you're shooting up heroin. So
there's so much in popular culture thatreinforces that image of the person who's in
addiction and such a negative point ofview, just really portraying that individual as
someone who made a bad choice ratherthan has an illness. Yeah, I
(07:03):
think we tend to forget that.And I'm guessing for everyone I've spoken to,
ninety percent of the people that arestruggling in active addiction are self medicating
a much deeper issue, and we'venever looked at it from that point of
view. And I think that wasalso a reason that helped perpetuate the idea
(07:26):
of the stigma, because we wereso concentrated on sobriety, sobriety, like
we never you know, you don't. The last conversation we had was a
great term that he used, Noone a doctor never tells someone come back
to me when you have stage fourcancer, and then I'll treat you.
(07:48):
And that was at the one ofthe podcasts we had done and that really
hit home for me, like itreally resonated with me. You can't tell
someone they shouldn't be eating all thatfood because now you're fat shaming someone.
So in our society, they're shamingfor everything except for the people that are
(08:11):
truly suffering and dying in record numbersfrom suicide and overdoses with mental health and
trauma and addiction. No one caresabout the shaming there, Like it's okay
to use the word junkie, it'sokay to say, well, it's your
fault. No one goes to someonewho has cancer and says, well,
(08:31):
if you didn't smoke or you didn'tdo this, then I don't feel bad
for you because you got cancer.You brought it on yourself. No one's
if someone were to say that,they would get destroyed. Yet people feel
it's okay to say that, andto treat people that are suffering with addiction
that's okay, Like that's acceptable.It's not. It is not acceptable,
(08:54):
and this is what we need toget out people. Well, doctor Vernick
demonizing addiction and has a long historynot only in popular culture but also our
government. Just say no. Thewhole all of the campaigns that the government
has been engaged in for these manydecades. I wonder if we can talk
more about how our culture and howour government has contributed to this stigmatization of
(09:20):
addiction. Well, for a longtime, substance use disorders as well as
mental illness, these were seen asthings that are a character flaw or weakness
or a spiritual deficit. And absolutelythere is a spiritual component to a substance
use disorder and to recovery. Butit's not that a person is wrong or
has failed and needs to make upfor that failure. But these old beliefs
(09:41):
really pervaded the field for such along period of time and hundreds of years
of belief that this is something thatsomeone's done to themselves, or a choice
that they've made, or the consequenceof their behavior that doesn't go away immediately,
which I think is where a lotof this comes from. And as
you pointed out, this has gottencaught a fe as well into our laws,
into the way even that our insurancereimbursement system works. So when you
(10:05):
look at things, you know,anti drug programs like just say no,
you know, which I certainly believenobody you had negative thoughts at the time
nobody wanted to, you know,create something that wouldn't be helpful. But
the idea that the problem was justas easy as, oh, you know,
just just say no to a substancethat has taken control of a person's
life and that has created physiological dependenceand symptoms, and that they may be
(10:28):
using to medicate pain or depression,anxiety trauma. The idea that we could
just say no to that, orjust make the decision immediately, flippantly,
right off the bat, to changethat without any support, you know,
sort of belies that idea that itis a choice somebody is making. So
everywhere from drug policy to some ofthe laws surrounding substance use in the past
have not been focused on treatment foryeah, exactly focused on incarceration. They're
(10:54):
focused on criminalizing as opposed to gettingpeople into treatment. And you know,
to your point, Pastor, thatstarted to change, and it's really wonderful
to see recovery courts and diversion programsand starting to see the legal system look
at it as a medical issue,not as a failing of the person,
or this is somebody who needs ourpunishment and our scorn. This is somebody
(11:18):
who needs help that's right. Ilove what Tony was saying because you know,
even like before I started abusing substances, my home life was absolutely terrible
for any child to grow up.And that's just you know, and I'm
you know, know who I amtoday, so I know what I'm not.
But at the time, I wasjust a scared little kid because I
lived in this violent home. Youknow, my father eventually passed away as
livers started giving away and things likethat. But you know, when I
(11:39):
first started abusing substances, I wasn'tlike, all right, I'm going to
smoke this, you know, weedor whatever and wind. I didn't like
fast forward and think, oh,well, you might be under the Somerset
Bridge one day shooting heroin, right, So like, it wasn't like that.
And it wasn't necessarily what the drugsdid to me. It's what they
did for me. Because I wasalready suffering from some trauma in my home.
I didn't have nowhere to turn atleast I felt that way. And
(12:01):
if I felt like, especially inmy neighborhood and with my family, if
I would have assault helped somewhere else. My mom was a saint, but
she couldn't help me as much asI needed to be helped, but I
felt like there was some stigma evenwithin the home dynamic. I really believe
that a lot of this stuff comesfrom the past that we've been through in
order for us to really get downto the causes and conditions. You know,
the substance was just what I startedusing, but the underlying symptoms extend
(12:24):
way past that. And to doctorPete's message, it's so true. I
got caught up in the system atan early age. And we're talking about
substance abuse disorder. I've had itfor sure, but we're talking like minor
offenses. And then it turned intoa felony. And then the felony I
couldn't walk off probation to save mylife because I couldn't stop using. And
(12:46):
they would ask me to come tothe probation department. What would I do.
I wouldn't show up. Why becauseI know I can't, you know,
pass the drug test, so Iwouldn't go. I don't want to
waste anybody's time. And then whenthey caught me, I would do a
whole year for absconding, a wholeyear when really I I couldn't stop shooting
heroin and I just needed help,but yet they put me away. And
you know, I'm grateful for allthe things that I've been through in my
(13:07):
past because it's made me what Iam today. But you know, I
do think that there's better ways,and I do think, you know,
not to get off on a teamsabout government stuff, because I do believe
the system is designed especially to keepmental health and people from substance use disorder
in chains. Like I do feellike it's like that, because the recidivism
is just insane. Yeah, it'sterrible. What are some of the common
(13:28):
stereotypes associated with addiction and how doyou perceive them to contribute to this stigma.
I say one hundred percent of that. People like talk down on people
and say that they're a failure,that they're not they're never going to be
able to get this. You know, my mom, I have two older
brothers and none of us were boyscouts. I'll just tell you that.
All right, we're all good now, praise God for that. But we
(13:50):
weren't boy scouts. We're heavy inthe streets. So my mom developed this
tough love mentality. Looking back,yeah, it's served its purpose hundred percent.
I wouldn't be here today. Ifif it wasn't for a mother's love,
and if a mother's love could havekept me sober, you would have
a different speaker right now. Solet me just start off by saying that.
But I don't think she understood howto deal with that either. She
would just tell me to get outand leave, Like you know, nobody
(14:11):
wants somebody like me around them.The only problem she had is she had
me in her house, right.But I think as far as that's concerned,
people look down as a moral failure, and it's absolutely not. I
agree that there's many different ways torecover and all that. I don't have
a monopoly on this thing. Ido not. I just try to love
people and meet and where they're at. But I will say, you know,
(14:31):
as far as it's like for me, it's like a mental health disorder
that we have going on in ourcountry and it's shooting up crazy. If
you look at the numbers right now, it's it's not stopping. There's no
in insight, addiction treatment is onlybarely scratching the surface. The recidivism rate,
even in addiction treatment is scary becausewe're trying to treat this disorder that
(14:52):
is. It's kind of hard.And I let doctor Pete speak on that
a little more. He's a littlebrighter than me when it comes to that.
But I do think as far aslike the available ability of people,
I think we can only heal andonly get better if we look at other
people as people. They're having ahuman experience. Yeah, thank you,
Yeah, yeah, you know.I have to I have to admit words
are so powerful. Right, Andthis was years ago, but I don't
(15:16):
know if for people who live inPhiladelphia. Emerald Street was a place where
there was an encampment and I wascovering a rally, an anti drug rally,
and I went down there and Iwas doing like Facebook live and I
used the word junkie because I didn'tknow any better, right, and then
someone live streaming said Lorraine, don'tuse that word. And right then and
(15:39):
there I was caught short. Isaid, oh, you know what,
that's right, I shouldn't be usingthat word because by the definition, that
word has negativity attached to it.Right, it's to say someone has substance
use disorder. Takes all of thestigma away from the world. There's so
many different words that we have forpeople who have substance use disorder, right,
(16:02):
and a lab vast majority of themare negative. Sure, and so
the language is so important. Andso when I learned to use substance use
disorder, I also felt inside ofme a shift in my own attitude.
Right, And so words are soso important now, Doctor Vernig, how
(16:23):
about addiction stigma? And Pastor Kraletalked about it a little bit because certainly
within your family there were certain attitudesand certain opinions about where you were at,
and that influences their behavior and relatingto the person who has the substance
use disorder. So tell us moreabout how stigma really impacts the family and
(16:47):
the loved ones of individuals struggling withsubstance use disorder. Well, one of
the things that stigma does is isolates. It isolates the family from the supports
in the larger community, and itcan isolate the person from the family.
So the belief that the person hasmade the choice for themselves, the idea
of you know, even just thelanguage like you talked about using words like
junkie or clean, where the oppositeof clean is obviously dirty or wrong,
(17:11):
or you know, looking at somebodyliving with the substance use disorder as being
the other or being less than issomething that closes off communication or it limits
that communication with family members. Soif this is something shameful, this is
our shameful family secret. It's somethingwe communicate about quietly. It's something we
communicate about in the shadows. It'snot something that should be out there in
(17:32):
the world. And if we're keepingit really close in it and tightly together,
then we're much less likely to getthose other supports that we need for
the family, for the individual whois living with the disorder themselves. So
what it does is it's such anisolation and substance use disorder is an isolating
disorder to begin with. It's somethingthat cuts people off from society, from
family, from hope, from support, and to have this additional layer of
(17:56):
isolation in place is something very harmful, harmful for people, harmful for families,
and harmful for the communities that theylive in. Yea, you brought
me back to my you know,and my active use with my own mom.
Who's you know, like I said, shout out to Judy. She's
a saint lover and you know IAddiction is one hundred percent of family disease
there's no doubt. It's such afamily disease. And like I always say,
(18:18):
like when we talk about in recovery, especially in addiction treatment, we
talk about treating the whole person.But if you're not actually treating the family,
you're not actually treating the whole person, right, because you got to
take it from the person to thefamily. And then even more is in
the community. You got to beable to give this person, you know,
great treatment and keep the family componentbecause unfortunately, when I started using,
(18:40):
things started getting missing. Right,that's just the facts. You know.
I'm not proud of that whatsoever.But my mom, you know,
I would take anything from her,But think about this. I took money,
absolutely, I stole from her,but I also stole pride. I
also stole sleep. I don't knowhow many times that her and my stepfather
stayed up at the arguing about meas their kid, right, stuff that
(19:03):
I can never actually give back.So when I come home and I'm saying
I'm gonna do better, my momwas like, yeah, sure, we'll
believe it when we see it.And even just that, I'm like,
huh, you know, I boughtthat. That's what I told myself.
But truth be told. It isa family disease, and if you're not
treating the whole person and the wholefamily, the chances of recovery drastically are
reduced. That has proven time andtime again. The stigma makes it almost
(19:27):
impossible to treat the family because they'reso petrified of someone finding out. Because
we're we're drilled in the They drilledin your head that the weakness of someone.
You don't want someone thinking that yourchild is weak, or your child
is dirty, or your child andthey don't know. Hey, look,
(19:52):
I'm telling you right now. Ialways tell it exactly the way it is.
I was that person that was like, why can't you just up?
And then you don't get it untilyou get it. And I always say,
you don't know what you don't knowuntil you know it. So but
then again, I'm going to throwsome blame out there too, social media,
to the regular media and in thepast, okay, there are leaps
(20:18):
and bounds now better, okay,But in the past, those people that
were involved in who you trusted withyour child to help them or your loved
one were abusing and taking advantage ofthem. So it was all of this
mounting up and the people don't knowwhere to go. They don't know.
(20:41):
There's no handbook on it, there'sno absolute work. Like you said,
there's no one size fits all.But if there's an open discussion where you
can listen and speak freely and tryto understand, eventually you may speak to
someone who hits a nerve on whatyou're dealing with or has been through what
(21:02):
you were going through that makes senseto you to pull you out of that.
And you're right, Look, life, life is hard, okay,
and you know people can become weakfrom it because it's easy to be beaten
down, very easy. It's hardto stand up. And when you do
stand up, God bless your strength. But know that there are a lot
(21:22):
of people don't have that kind ofstrength and they need you to help stand
them up. And that's where weneed to get. Families need to let
go of this image and stigma thatthey're dealing with and be open. And
I think that that's the first lineof actually helping people that are in active
addiction and that are struggling when theyknow that their family is not ashamed of
(21:47):
them, because they feel ashamed,and that is a cycle that just keeps
going round and round and we justkeep losing people. Yeah, we should,
definitely. And I was also sayto that, you know, you
bring up a point when I dealwith families, because I deal with them
a lot, and I love that, right. I think it's it's so
important. You see, like twoextreames, ones like I'm kicking this person
(22:07):
out of my house, get out, I don't want to ever speak to
them again, and then the otherone is like loving them to death almost
right, It's like, no,we need to fix them. Well,
the truth is they can't, right, that's the truth. And I think
that there's something called we always missthis as healthy boundaries, right, and
it's different for each person. See, I don't want to ever try to
praise such an intimate situation with afamily. I've had enough of the problems
(22:29):
on my own family. You know, I'm a father of three now with
a wife. I feel like I'mdoing a good job. I'll let my
wife say as you know, I'lltell you that. But you know,
I really think that these things calledhealthy boundaries, like we're going to help
you up until this point, butif you're going to be doing that,
we can't or whatever. It's goingto be different for each person. But
like Tony was saying, the lastthing you want to do is you know,
(22:51):
condemn this person. That's what yousee across the board. And even
with social media and all these otherthings. You should see some of these
websites and people posting different things,what they're called these human beings. Yes,
people don't care how much you knowuntil they know how much you care.
And best idea wins where I comefrom, right, it doesn't matter
who the messenger is. I don'tcare if I want to post and I
(23:12):
want people to live. Right,that's like my whole position on recovery and
life in general. And you can'tdo that unless you get compassionate. And
we all have to be compassionate tothe person who's still stuck in the margins
of society. I think that's suchan incredible point because there are many sites
that come out of Kensington where they'reshowing people an active addiction, shooting up,
(23:33):
nodding out, all those things,and it's almost like a kind of
porn in a way because people arefascinated by it. But again, you're
looking at someone in a very judgmentalway, and that's not cool at all.
I wonder if we can talk aboutthose boundaries. I love what you
just said about that, and maybewe can explore that a little further,
(23:56):
the healthy boundary part, because Ithink, you know, it's Tony and
your mom. You know, we'resaying, you know, like you gotta
do this. You love your child, but it's do or die, or
you get clean or you get outall those different things that people go through
as parents, and I wonder ifwe can talk about those healthy boundaries.
(24:18):
I like that phrase because it putsit in a whole different context. I
think that the pastor made a verygood point about the fact that it's not
one size fits all. So youknow, I wouldn't want to be prescriptive
in the same way that I wouldn'ttell two people living with a substance use
disorder that they have to do thesame thing to recover, and recovery always
is going to look the same wayfor families. It's not going to look
the same because different families have differentconcerns, they have different situations, they
(24:41):
have different backgrounds. But I thinkthat when it comes to healthy boundaries,
what we're talking about is that we'regoing to provide support, We're going to
provide love, and caring for theperson, but also and I'm a little
bit leary of using the word butnot enabling. And the reason why I'm
leary of using the word is thatI think that not enabling it's thrown around
very easily and has actually been usedin a very stigmatizing way in the past.
(25:04):
But when we talk about not enabling, we simply talk about how we're
going to provide positive support for theperson, but we're not going to inadvertently
do things that encourage them to continuetheir pattern. And you know, when
we look at the way that ourbehavior affects another person, we can never
know that for sure ourselves. Imean, we are so in it every
(25:25):
day that the words that I use, the language I use, the way
that I talk, how that affectsanother person close to me, how it
affects my loved ones, my familymembers, my friends. I'm never going
to be able to see that becauseI'm in that relationship. I'm right there
in that interaction. But being ableto get that outside view of you know,
when you say get cleaner, getout, as you said, that's
not actually helpful. That doesn't makethe person want to change their behavior.
(25:48):
It actually makes them more resistant,it might make them feel less likely talking.
Yeah, it creates inferiority, andit reduces them and reduces what they're
going through or that they're trying toJust as you put it, love them
to death that they all they wantto do is provide support and whatever you
need, I'm going to do andeverything that you want I'm going to give
you that you know, on theother end of the spectrum, that's not
helpful either. But if you thinkabout our relationships and parenting and friendships and
(26:14):
all interpersonal relationships in general, it'sthe same way. You don't want either
one of those two extremes where somebodyis closed off to others and making demands
and insistent versus if they're giving inand not giving feedback and just acquiescing to
everything. So, you know,it's sort of a microcosm of our relationships
in general. As a father parent, everything that you said I one hundred
(26:38):
percent agree with, But there aresome real life facts that have to be
understood when you're looking at your child, especially as a parent, and you
know that if you give them moneyas they're begging for money because they're in
so much pain, that you couldget a phone call that they're dead.
(27:03):
But if you hold back that moneyand you don't give them that money,
you can get a phone call thatthey went out and they did whatever they
needed to do to get the moneyand they're dead. So as a parent,
you're put in an impossible situation becausethere is no answer that gives you
(27:26):
any hope that the phone call won'tcome. Because everyone is living every day
with someone who is struggling waiting forthe phone call to come. I need
to ask you how does spirituality playa role in not only addiction recovery and
rehabilitation, and also what are someof the common spiritual or religious support systems
(27:52):
and addiction treatment and recovery that youcan talk about. Because I said earlier
spirituality was something that saved me.Without it, I don't know what I
have done, But that's me asan individual. What are your thoughts on
that. I always look at,like as a Christian pastor, right,
like, that's that's what I follow. But I also look at people that
(28:15):
don't believe in the same thing asme. Right there's a message in the
Bible that says take the log outof your eye before you judge somebody else's.
And I got a pretty big onemost days. You know, I'm
an extra grace required kind of pastor. So like, I have no room
to judge anybody, point blank,period the end. But I'll say as
far as like the role that spiritualityhas played in my life and faith,
so I would talk about faith,faith and reason aren't so far apart as
(28:37):
some people think that they are.Right. It takes some faith to have
reason and reason to have faith,right, So like, that's what you
gotta work on with people in recovery. It's like, well, I don't
believe in nothing. Well, weall believe in something that is true,
Like I have said it before,whether you believe in God, or you
just believe in the power good,or you believe that the sun's going to
rise tomorrow. We all have faithin something or someone. It wouldn't be
(29:00):
life if we didn't. So that'sfirst and foremost. I meet people where
they are. But the role thatit played in my life, I can't
minimize what it's done for me.You know, I serve a radical God
personally, and he radically has changedmy life. And he sends me back
into the margins to get these peoplethat are sick broken. This disease wants
to kill you. I mean,it is a life and death arned.
There's no doubt. You know.I passed away three times from my disease
(29:22):
and I was brought back to lifeprior to the fetanyl thing that came out.
If fatanyl was around right now,you would have a different speaker.
Definitely. There was no chance thatI was going to do it after a
decade of ivy on and off fora decade of ivy heroin use. But
the role that faith, Like Ihave faith every morning, right, I
wake up and I hit my kneesand I ask the God of my understanding,
my higher power, allow me tobe helpful to somebody else. It
(29:45):
gives me a sense of purpose.See, that's what we're all searching for,
is this sense of purpose. AndI'm not telling. I don't tell
the people that I'm working with orhelping or whoever to follow me to my
church. I don't do that,right, I just I don't like do
I want them to? Of coursethat's horror. I'm a pastor. But
as long as they're following something rightand not your old way of life.
See, I see faith take theold and make something new as Tony alluded
(30:10):
to the faith in you know,his God and his higher power has helped
him through a lot of things too. And even people that just don't believe
in that faith in something is there. I promise you it's an essential component
to life itself. I always havefaith in the wrong things. Today I
have faith in the good things oflife and has given me my primary purpose
to go help other people that don'thave any faith. There's people that are
(30:33):
stuck in Kensington one hundred percent rightnow that don't have faith in anything except
wanting to die and to come andactually motivate people like that and stand beside
them. And it's not just asyou know, take a picture like you
were saying. I mean, that'sjust the minute you start magnifying that their
complor I mean, it's ridiculous.Yeah. But if you get down there
and don't use the phone and youjust use your you know, language,
like you said, words matter,and you let them know that you care.
(30:56):
But more importantly, you're not doneyet. I'm gonna be here tomorrow.
How about this tomorrow. I wantto be there there. It shows
that you actually have faith in them, and now they start to build upon
that faith as far as institutions,I mean, obviously there's so many different
twelve step meetings out there for people. There's people that don't believe in God
that has some type of twelve stepwork, the Buddhist path and all these
other things, and it gives youa sense of community, right, So
(31:18):
it's not just go to church orany of these other things. But once
you get part of a community ofpeople who are like minded, who's been
through the things that you've been through, but more importantly, they know the
way out, now you actually havea sense of belonging and we're all trying
to do that. So I alwaysfelt like the disease is mental. Physical,
obviously we have this physical factor,and of course spiritual. So we
need to treat all three of thesewith other people who has been through the
(31:41):
process before, that knows the process, that actually genuinely care from the bottom
of their heart right that they're goingto be with you every step of the
way. The way I've heard thatexplained best is that it's something outside of
oneself that could be a God thatthey believe in. It can be a
religion, spirituality, it can bea fellowship of individuals come together, a
community it can be family, butit's something more than oneself. It's something
(32:04):
outside, it's something supportive, andit's something that they can rely upon when
they need it, because people doneed it. Yeah. Absolutely. You
know, I may say something thatmight be unpopular, but I do that.
So spirituality for me, religion,I believe with every fiver of my
being. There's no religion on theother side. We made it. That's
(32:29):
just my personal opinion, okay.And I do have a very strong faith
and I strongly believe in God.But when you use religion and even spirituality
as a crutch to hold yourself up, you will fall because the first person,
the first one that matters, thefirst belief that you have to have,
(32:52):
is in you. Because when youhave faith and belief in you,
spirituality and even religion, if that'swhere you are now, becomes part of
you, not the crutch that you'reusing to stand on. It becomes part
of your makeup. So I alwaystell people I get all the twelve step
(33:15):
like, I get all of that, and I understand it, but please
understand that you need to believe inyou first before spirituality or any religion that
you believe in can make a differentit's not a crutch. It is supposed
to be part of who you are, and it can't be if you don't
(33:37):
believe in you in the end,whether you believe in a higher spirit,
God, go to church, don'tgo to church, go to temple,
don't go to temple. It allboils down to love, righte. Love,
you know, that's the common denominatorin all of the positive things that
spirituality can bring to us. AndI love what you said, Pastor Crole.
(34:00):
I love your journey. I lovethat you're here to share with us
your own story because your story isan inspiration. I appreciate that. Yeah,
I'm blessed to be here. Imean, it's an important topic.
And you were, Me and Tonywere talking prior to this, and it's
about the language of the heart,right, it really is language of the
(34:21):
heart. I like that. It'sso important to have when you're speaking to
somebody just in life. Right,Like I'm not just a pastor for people's
abusing substances. I'm a real pastor, like God is my God has put
me in a position to be helpfulto all people. I always have an
open door policy, you know,I mean, God forbid, I don't
reach out and help somebody. I'vebeen blessed with this life beyond measure.
(34:42):
There's just saying from an old pastorthat I really love, and I actually
use it as like a pillar inmy own life and in my own walk,
and when I'm dealing with people whodon't necessarily believe in what I do,
and that's fine. We can alwaysagree to disagree. I don't know
what happened in our culture where it'slike, well I don't agree with that,
but it's okay, I love youanyway. I don't. I don't
understand that. Yeah, I don'tknow what happened. But this pastor,
he's been long since deceased, butI listened to him all the time.
(35:05):
Sm Lockwerds. I'll give you aquote, but he says, you can
have a pocket full of pearls,but without string, you're never going to
have a necklace. Now, Now, every single person, whether you're in
substance abuse or not, just humans, we're all having a human experience unfortunately,
right sometimes it's unfortunately life gets lifey. Every person is a pearl in
his or her own right. Butif we don't come together as a whole,
(35:29):
as a humanity, This extends pastmental health and all these other things,
but especially mental health. If wedon't come together as one as a
human relating to another human, we'renever going to be effective in anything that
we're doing. Beautiful doctor Vernig.If people want more information about recovery centers
of America, where do people go? If anyone's interested in learning more about
(35:51):
recovery centers of America, you cango to the website RCA Recovery three sixty
dot com or call our toll freenumber eight four four two five. Recovery
Recovery three sixty isn't just about storiesof survival from substance use disorder. It's
a resource for those seeking answers,support and hope. Whether you're personally navigating
(36:13):
the challenging terrain of recovery or you'rehere to learn how to be a better
ally, this podcast is a sourceof information, inspiration, and empowerment.
Well, I like to thank doctorPeter Vernig, vice President of Mental Health
Services, and pastor Jason Crale.And remember, I want to leave you
with one thing. The most importantthing I hope you get out of this
(36:34):
podcast today is love yourself. Because, believe it or not, there are
people that love you even when youthink that there is amen. Yeah,
beautiful way to end this, sosee you next time. Thank you all
for joining us today, Thank youboth for having us. Thank you I A
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