December 18, 2023 • 41 mins
In this episode, Loraine Ballard Morrill, Director of News and Community Affairs for iHeartMedia Philadelphia, and advocate Tony Luke Jr. sit down with Interventionist, Robert Strauber and Family Support Specialist, Ashley Davis to discuss the importance of the intervention process with loved ones and the significant impact it can make on a loved one's addiction recovery journey.
This podcast episode and others are available to watch in video format here www.RCARecovery360.com
Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
***Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
This podcast episode and others are available to watch in video format here www.RCARecovery360.com
Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
***Any views or comments provided by individuals other than RCA employees are their own and do not represent the official views of Recovery Centers of America.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Recovery threesixty, the podcast dedicated to exploring the
pathways to treatment and recovery, broughtto you by Recovery Centers of America.
I'm Lorraine Ballard Morrel, Directive Newsand Community Affairs for iHeartMedia, Philadelphia,
and I am joined by the fabulousTony Luke Junior. Hey Tony, Hello,
(00:26):
Lorraine, how are you? Iam doing great. We're continuing this
journey together on talking about recovery,yes, which is a very important issue
today more than ever been, andwe are so thrilled to be your guide
on this journey towards better understanding theworld of healing in the many ways individuals
find their way to recovery, wellas our listeners who've been following us know
(00:51):
already. In each episode, wesit down with experts, survivors, and
advocates in the field of treatment andrecovery. We'll unravel the complexities of addiction,
mental health, and physical wellness whileshedding light on the diverse health and
physical wellness issues with diverse therapies,interventions, and approaches available. In today's
episode, we're actually going to betalking about family intervention well family intervention and
(01:15):
substance use disorder is a vital andstructured approach aimed at helping individuals struggling with
substance use disorder, and today we'lltalk about what family and friends need to
know before coming together to express concerns, to set boundaries, and encourage their
loved one to seek treat. Well, you know, Tony, before we
(01:37):
get into talking with our panel ofexperts, I know that this is an
issue that is especially close to yourheart because you have been doing so much
to raise awareness about how families needto work with interventions and ways that move
people towards recovery, and your personallived experience has really informed our overall conversation
(01:57):
about recovery. Well, I justthink that the family seems to get lost
in the shuffle. I just didan event over the weekend, and after
I got done speaking and had performedone of the tracks from the album,
a woman had come over to meand she said, Hey, listen,
my son is acting this way.He's doing this, and he's doing that.
(02:19):
Do you think he's using? Isthat what he's doing? Do you
think he's using? And I said, well, it's impossible for me to
know that unless I speak with yourson. But if his behavior has changed
dramatically from what it was, thenI would say that there's a good chance
that he's self medicating through through something. And it's just that so many parents
(02:42):
and loved ones are unaware. Parentsare like, I need to speak to
someone that can give me some kindof answers. What am I looking for?
What are the signs? Where doI go from here? Which is
why I think this discussion is vitallyimportant because there are a million questions that
family members need to have answered.They just don't know where to go to
(03:04):
get the answer. Well, thatis the perfect lead into our discussion today
because we're going to be talking aboutsome of the things that we need to
look for in terms of helping ourfamily members join the recovery path. And
with us are Rob Strubber, who'sDirector of Intervention, Ashley Davis, who
is a family support specialist, andVP of Clinical Services, Pete Vernick Tony.
(03:29):
I know that we were just talkingabout exactly what that mother was asking,
is what do we need to know? Right? Yeah? Well,
I mean people are looking for answersand they're just not getting them. And
I understand. You know, ifsomeone got forbid, if someone got shot.
The focus of the attention is tostop the bleeding, stop the bleeding,
but you know there's family members thatare looking around. They're like,
(03:51):
well, what is the doctor doing? Why are they able to stop the
bleeding? Is that my love,I'm going to die? It's like are
they taking to the hospital? Theyhave all of these questions on. Unfortunately,
there are times where all the concentrationneeds to go towards the person that
is in trouble, and we forgetthat not knowing is the worst possible thing
(04:15):
that your mind can go through mentally. It's the not knowing, not having
any answers what happens next, wheredo we go next? What do we
do? And I think that wereally need to start concentrating with the same
vigor that we use in helping thosethat are struggling, in helping the families
to cope and understand what is goingon because they don't. Well, Pete,
(04:40):
let's talk about that. Why doessomeone need an intervention? At what
point do you get to? Interventionis really what's called for? And then
what does an interventionist actually do well? So, an intervention in substance use
disorder treatment, what it looks likeis an opportunity for somebody's family members or
friends, other important people in theirlife to come together and share with them
(05:01):
their concern, that they've noticed thingschanging in the person's behavior in their life,
and that they're going to encourage themto get into treatment. I think
that one of the things that alot of people think about when they can
think about an intervention, they thinkabout movies that they've seen television in the
media. It's a bunch of peoplegetting around and pointing fingers and accusations and
things like that. And as wetalk about so often, that's not something
(05:26):
that's helpful for people. It's notabout shame. It's not about this happened
right now, or I'm not speakingto you again. It could be about
setting boundaries and saying that I canno longer support this pattern of behavior,
I can no longer be around youif this is going to continue to happen.
But really, what it looks likeis it's more about expressing concern,
it's more about providing support. It'smore about communicating with the individual than not.
(05:49):
So people get to the point wherethey want to have an intervention where
a person is clearly in need ofhelp and need of support but is not
open to that on their own.Gives people an opportunity to share that information.
Rob. As Pete mentioned, wehave a certain view of what an
intervention is based on all the TVshows intervention and all the other popular culture
(06:12):
that's out there. And I thinkwhat Pete said is so important because I
think we have a certain idea ofwhat intervention means. Right. It's to
confront the one that we love,you know, one at a time.
This is how you hurt me,this is why you need help. But
that's really not the way an interventionneeds to go, right, No,
absolutely not. It should be theexact opposite. And when families have run
(06:35):
out of options, when they feellike they've tried everything to help their loved
ones, before they give up hopereach out. We need professionals to be
able to help guide families through thebeginning of their own recovery journey, to
help the families, so to speak, see the forest through the trees.
A certified intervention professional will carefully assessthe situation and help the family put together
(06:58):
a team of concerned friends and familymembers to help educate and create new messaging
and a new pathway forward. Notonly for the individual, but also for
the family as well, and thenutilizing that team's support and the love and
concern in a safe and collaborative fashionallows the team to really highlight how important
(07:20):
their loved one is and how everyoneis embarking on their own recovery journey with
them, not against them. Tony, Well, I have to tell you,
the lack of that of what hejust said, the lack of being
able to have access to doing that, brings up one of the things I
(07:42):
speak about all the time. Youknow, the thing I remember most with
my son Tony was that he trulybelieved, deep inside his heart that everyone
that he loved would be better offand their lives would be so much better
if he just died now. Hebelieved that with every fiber of his being,
(08:07):
because we never knew how to communicateto him how important he was and
how much value his life had.Because those that are struggling, you know,
with addiction, to me, italways boils down to the mental health
aspect of what someone is going throughand what someone doesn't understand or what someone
(08:31):
cannot face. But the families doexactly what you had just said. So
they get in a room together andthey all think that they know what they're
doing, and they don't because wedon't know what we're doing. And if
you don't have a professional that isinvolved in that intervention to kind of orchestrate
that intervention, it becomes a blamefest that becomes you hurt me, You're
(08:52):
no good, why did you dothis to me? And then all it
does is compile the guilt that someoneis feeling already about them. So,
if there's a scenario where you canmake someone feel worse than they feel already,
do an intervention without a professional thereto help you get through it and
to guide you and to get itdone, you will take a situation at
(09:13):
his bed and make it even tentimes worse. Now, don't be under
the assumption, under the assumption thateven bringing in a professional and doing an
intervention, that this is the cureall that all of a sudden they're going
to go, oh, I neversaw it that way, and now that
I see it that way, I'mgood and we can do this. No,
(09:35):
the secret of this is always patience. The secret of this is never
giving up. The secret of thisis continue to show love and support because
no one, and I mean noone, I don't care the greatest professionals
in the world. If you arenot ready to receive that help, if
you are not open to wanting toget to the root and the issue,
(10:00):
you can have all the interventions inthe world and nothing will stop. That's
why it's important to have a professionalto know the right buttons to push,
to know the right questions to ask, and to keep people where they need
to be so that it is aloving and caring environment that you are dealing
with that people can respond Ashley Tonybrings up such an important point, and
(10:24):
that is the importance of having guidancefrom a professional. And he also brings
up another point that I think isso powerful and so challenging, and that
is that person who's not ready toaccept that they need an intervention, they
need help. So in the workthat you do and how you approach someone
(10:48):
who's in that position, which canbe very powerfully strong moving them off that
What are some of the things thatan interventionist can suggest or support family members
in moving that conversation for that personin a way that they will be open
(11:09):
to treatment and recovery. Yeah,and I think Tony, you brought up
a really good point that when somebodyis struggling with substance abuse and you have
a family member, they're looking atthe bleeding like, how do I stop
the bleeding? How do I stopthe bleeding? And so often I think
that treatment facilities are focusing directly onthe patient. Obviously, that's the that's
(11:31):
the most apparent, that is thebiggest consequence of using. And I do
believe that families get left behind sometimes, and so what my position is is
that there is a place for familymembers to call, and that yes,
while we are addressing the patient,we are addressing their son, their daughter,
their mother, their cousin, whoever, their friend. You know,
we're also focusing directly on them.And although their loved one may not be
(11:56):
ready to receive services, is thatloved one ready to receive service? Because
that's the idea, is that eventuallythe goal is to get your loved one
to agree to commit to treatment.But like you said, if a person's
not willing, they're not ready,you can counsel them, you can pray
over them, you can put themin front of a judge. And if
they're not ready to stop using,they will not stop using. And I
(12:18):
think that a lot of family members'friends have a hard time accepting that,
and so that is really like mygoal is to work with a family to
get them to a place where theycan understand that that is a scenario,
that it might not happen today.And that's what I see a lot is
that family members like they need togo today, right now, right now.
I need is fixed right now.It's and I understand, I too
(12:39):
have personal lived experience of losing afamily member. My mother. My mother
lost her life to you know,the disease of addiction, and she suffered
a fatal overdose. And yeah,I mean she wasn't she wasn't ready,
but I was. That's what hasgiven me the ability to sit here today
(13:00):
and I've been on my own healingjourney through that. And that's the goal,
is that I can provide a pathwayfor these families to start their own
journey towards recovery. Right it's whatyou're saying. It sounds like it's so
important not only for the person thatyou're trying to get into recovery, but
for that family member is Tony,and you have indicated there's this urgency you
(13:24):
want them in recovery treatment now,and they may not be at that place
yet, So how do you howdo you address that? Because the urgency
is there, You're thinking life ordeath? Is Tony, I know you
did life or death. You're alwaysthinking life for death. But the reality,
the acceptance of that is the hardestthing for a family member to accept
(13:46):
is the fact that you have nocontrol over that situation. You do not.
You can only control the way youreact to that situation when you bring
to that situation. But as muchas you want the problem to be solved
immediately, you're not dealing with asituation. You know. People asked me
(14:09):
once, They said to me,Tony, what does addiction look like from
a family's point of view? Andmost people see addiction like this, Okay,
So when they ask me what itlooks like, I always do this
and they grow and for our radioaudience, oh, I'm sorry. So
(14:31):
I have my fingers. My thumbsare touching each other. It almost looks
like a pair of wings. It'snot it's wings. It's open. It
looks like spider legs, all ofthese legs. And they look at me
and they go, I don't understand, and I go, you think to
solve this is you're looking at thisone finger, when it is all of
these every bit of these things makesup the one thing that you're looking at.
(14:56):
So all of these issues need tobe addressed in order to understand and
make someone that is suffering understand.I will tell a very short story,
but I think it is very relevant. I was working at one of my
locations and a gentleman walked in andhe came up to me and he said,
I need your help, and Isaid, how can I help you?
(15:16):
He said, I've been to I'vebeen to recovery twelve times. I
go to meetings and nothing is helpingme. And I just feel like you
can make the difference. And I'mlike, well, why do you think
that. I was like, I'veseen you, I've heard you speak.
There's something that you say. There'ssomething about you that makes me want to
(15:37):
get help. And I said,okay, well if that works for you,
then I'm here for you. Andthen he would be fine. And
I had taken to rehab and everythingwas great, and he had gone through
rehab and then he had relapsed.And he had gone through rehab and he
had relapsed. And then finally wesat down and I said to him,
why are you self medicating? Why? Well became like, I don't want
you're lying to me. I wantto know why, why are you something?
(16:00):
And I pushed him and I pushedhim and I pushed him and I
pushed him to the point where hewas so upset with me that he screamed
at me, it's my mom.And he had never said that before,
and he just unloaded all of theyears that he had been holding inside of
the issue that he had had withhis mom. And he cried. And
(16:23):
I said, now now you canbe helped because now you've admitted why you're
self medicating. And that is thefirst The first step is understanding why you
are doing what you are doing.Why do you need to self medicate?
But you can detox, you cando all of these things until you can
(16:48):
get to the root of the reasonthat someone is self medicating. It is
a hamster wheel. It's a cyclethat goes on and on and on,
Which is why I believe that paramountis the mental health issue of people that
are self medicating. It is tome, it is the number one focused
(17:08):
even above as controversial, again asI tend to be, the mental health
issue is paramount, even above thesobriety. It is paramount, even above
the detox. It is the mostparamount thing that is possible that you need
to address, because nothing else worksuntil that is addressed. Pete and Rob
(17:33):
a couple of things that Tony said. Certainly he was a one man intervention
right here, so and we seethat in this case it made a difference
in this guy's life. When familymembers are ready to create this intervention,
how do they assemble the team.What is the most effective group of people
(17:56):
that will come together to make thiswork in a way that will open up
that individual to recovery. What aresome of the first steps they need to
take. Well, I think inidentifying the team, you have to keep
in mind the fact that every family, just like every patient is different.
Every family is different, and thereare some people who their family may be
the closest to them, and thoseare the people that they'll listen to.
(18:17):
Those are the people that have informationor support they want to share with the
person. But in some cases itmay be friends, coworkers, other people
in their life. You know,to Tony's example, where this individual mother
was one of the things that hehad been holding on to for so long,
there's a very close family member thatmaybe you know in that moment wouldn't
be productive to have be a partof that. So really it's going to
(18:38):
be different for every person. Robcan talk a little bit about how you
would go about selecting and putting thatteam together. When I speak to families,
I asked them, you know who'simportant in your loved one's life,
and don't leave anybody out right whois concerned for them and who would be
concerned if they knew the situation.So often there's so much shame, there's
(18:59):
a lot of blame, a lotof guilt, right stigma that's attached to
substance use disorders and mental health concerns. So you may have one shot at
this. So I say to families, who are we going to pull together
that not only can help support yourloved one, but also support you through
this recovery journey. Yeah, Ashley, I think Rob said something really interesting,
(19:22):
which is that not every family memberis going to be right to be
part of this right. So theyare going to be some family members that
are going to be toxic in thissituation like that, and there'll be other
family members who obviously are going tobe open to suggestions and guidance and all
that sort of thing. So howdo you address those family members that want
(19:44):
to be a part They're rare togo. They want to be a part
of this intervention, but you knowthey are not supposed to be there.
Yeah, so I think that's atough one, right, And oftentimes,
you know, when I'm speaking witha family member over the phone, I
do gather those individuals, right andI take a look at the family system,
and I just gather information. It'snot always my role in my responsibility
(20:08):
to say who is and who shouldn'tbe involved. You know, if the
family member is expressing to me thatthe cousin is somebody that is concerned or
would be concerned, but then goeson to express that this cousin is also
struggling with substances, you know,then I just take that information and I
usually will pass it on to somebodylike Rob and ask for some guidance on
(20:30):
that. You know, do wethink this individual does it make sense for
them to be there? And Robreally kind of picks up at that point
on how to address the family.So I don't know if you want to
kind of touch on that a littlebit more. Yeah, it's a bit
of a process, right, Soafter they call in and speak with Ashley,
they're going to be sent over toa certified intervention professional. Their role
is to really dive in and understandthe family system at a much deeper level,
(20:56):
right, and really understand what makespeople tick. So Ashley would have
found out that possibly the cousin wouldbe a person who may not be advantageous
to have in that intervention. Butwe're going to ask that individual a lot
more questions, right, and wemay actually invite them to what we call
a pre intervention, just so thatwe can understand what their motivation is for
(21:19):
wanting to participate. Is it trulyout of love? Is it truly out
of concern? Is there an ulteriormotive? Is there an opportunity that we
may need to help more people,like in Ashley's situation where we may have
multiple individuals that are suffering with substanceuse disorder or mental health concerns. So
if it fits within everyone who isor would be concerned for the loved one,
(21:42):
and we can get them to channelthat message of love and concern and
be specific just to that individual,then there may be some space for that
individual to participate and then you know, if there are any abnormalities, so
to speak, at the actual intervention, then that can be dealt with either
in real time or actually we getletters that we were able to share with
(22:04):
those loved ones, and we havean opportunity to actually review those as well,
so we do have a pretty goodsense as to what that individual might
be sharing. Tony. Something thatRob said and something you've also talked about
a lot, which is the denialthat often happens in a family. Had
you we talked about the people whoare toxic and they want to do this
(22:26):
thing when to do an intervention,but they are also families that don't even
want to talk about it. Youin a previous podcast talked about someone who
I think criticized you for saying whatyour son died of. They didn't want
to talk about the fact that itwas substance use disorder, right, So
there's a denial factor. There's alot of secrecy in so many families,
(22:47):
and it was someone very close inthe family. And I have no ill
will at all. In fact,I sadly I completely understood why that was,
because this stigma is so horrific.I've repeated this more than once on
the podcast, and I repeated everytime that I speak, that heroine took
my son's life, but the stigmais what killed him. And I have
(23:11):
no doubt about that whatsoever. Andit was a gentleman. The reason I
do what I do today wasn't anelderly gentleman had walked into one of my
stores. Because when my son died, it became like almost national news.
I mean, it was on everynews station, in every magazine, in
(23:32):
every newspaper, you know, andI was flooded with people calling me.
And I remember the media calling mesaying to me, listen, we're just
going to say that he passed wherewe're not going to say that, you
know. And in the beginning,you know, I listened to it and
(23:52):
my first thought was like, thankGod that they have enough respect for me
to do that. Then the partof me was like, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait a minute, what you know? And it
bothered me. And then an elderlygentleman came into the store and he said,
Hey, I just heard on thenews that your son had passed away.
So I just want to tell youI'm very sorry. I said,
do you mine if I ask youa question? And I said, no,
(24:14):
what is it? And he saidwhat was it? Cancer? And
I said no, he died ofa heroin overdose. And he got very
angry and he said to me,why do they do this to us?
Why did he do that to you? Why? And I'm listening to him,
and I'm watching him, and there'sa part of me that is saying
(24:37):
that this man is trying to becomforting to me by showing this anger of
what happened to me. And thenI literally, for that moment, for
the first time, I saw theway my son saw the world looking at
him, and I realized that atmy journey was to obliterate the stigma that
(25:04):
was attached to make people understand thatthis is a mental health and a trauma
issue, and addiction is nothing excepta byproduct of self medicating those issues.
It is not a single thing.We have always treated it as a single
thing, as a gunshot wound,which it is not. It is a
(25:25):
byproduct of self medicating that trauma andthat mental health. And that's when I
knew that I would devote every livingsecond of my life to obliterating the way
the world looks at those that arestruggling. As someone who is ill as
someone who needs to not get clean, but needs to get well. I
even despise the word getting clean becauseto me, it gives me the image
(25:49):
of dirty. And none of thesepeople that are struggling are dirty. They
are ill, and they are sufferingwith a mental health issue that needs to
be addressed above all things, becausewe all, let me tell you something,
we all struggle from self medicating,every single person in this room,
(26:10):
whether it's I need my coffee inthe morning, or I need to go
out and smoke a cigarette, orwith me, it's I need to eat.
I need to eat carbs. Sowhen people grab that self righteous attitude
of well, I deal with myproblems, No, you don't. You
smoke three packs of cigarette today,you eat yourself to death. You know,
you drink a ton of coffee andenergy drinks. You are self medicating.
(26:34):
You're just self medicating in a differentway. But we all self medicate,
So don't cop a righteous attitude ofhow much better you are of dealing
with situations. You're just not usingdrugs and alcohol as your means of self
medicating, but you're self medicating nonetheless. Sorry, I get how do you
(26:55):
really feel about that? Tony justkidding. Listen, the whole idea of
stigma and how that impacts a family'srelationship to substance use disorder. It's so
powerful. We're really doing our best, and Tony has done such an amazing
job raising awareness and about how weneed to have these discussions and talk about
it and put it out in theopen. But denial is very much a
(27:18):
part of this whole world. Familymembers, many of them don't want to
admit that there's something wrong, sodenial PETE is obviously a real obstacle for
many families. How do you addressthe denial and Robin then Ashley, Well,
first of all, I think youhave to try to understand where the
denial is coming from, because itcould be, you know, we only
(27:41):
see a small part. I thinkyou gave the example of you know,
it looks like this holding up myhand with making an o that you see
just only a small amount of thatperson's life. So people may not see
the consequences of the actions, theymay not see all of the actions,
they may not see everything going onwith that individual. So denial could just
simply be you know, oh no, I you know, had lunch of
(28:02):
them the other day, everything seemedfine. It could be because of stigma.
Of course, it could be notwanting to admit that this is something
that can actually happen in my family. This is something that happens to other
people, This is something that happensin other families, other communities, not
to me and to the people thatI love. And part of it could
be something that the person themselves isdealing with that if I admit that I
(28:22):
think that this is a problem,then I have to admit that to your
point, what I'm doing is alsoproblematic. You know, we do see
families who sometimes will enable that behavior, or they may be the one that
a person is drinking with, orusing drugs with, or is involved in
that with the person. So manydifferent reasons for denial, So I think
that before you can try to addressthat, you have to understand why is
(28:44):
this person denying that this is aproblem. Is it that they don't see
the whole picture? Is it thatthey don't want to see the whole picture?
What's really going on with them?I've been Denial is definitely a slippery
slope, and there can be varyingdegrees of it throughout the process. So
if I were to take a forinstance, and I had a mom give
me a call and start to showthose signs of denial. I think in
(29:07):
some ways, the fact that shecalled is a way that she's reaching out
and asking for help, right.And I think a lot of times the
family members that maybe in denial knowthat there are other family members that know
that there's another situation going on.You know, it becomes a coping mechanism,
right, and one that we needto be able to survive as we
go through day by day, andeverybody copes and responds differently, right,
(29:30):
So it's really important that we bringawareness into the situation. By bringing in
the other concerned family members and friends, it's easier to help that family member
struggling with denial understand the gravity ofthe situation. Also, it's easier for
them to accept the support that theirloved ones are supplying as well, not
just for the individual who needs treatment, but the family system as a whole.
(29:55):
So just being able to know that, you know, we've got somebody
that comes to the table and we'reable to bring the larger group together,
we can talk through those issues,and oftentimes we may have that individual identify
and say yeah, I'm doing thosetypes of behaviors, what do I do?
And that's really the platform for usto then be able to build upon
that and say, hey, we'rejust going to keep moving one foot in
(30:18):
front of the other. We're goingto learn from what has worked, We're
going to throw away everything else thathasn't, and we're going to build upon
your straints. Yeah, Ashley,did you want to add anything to that?
Yeah, there's a couple things thatI'll add. Antonia, I love
your passion, really, I feelit. I feel it, and I
think language is really important. Anotherpersonal experience of mine. I had a
(30:41):
baby's sister who died by suicide,and to use the word committed was like
committing a crime. You know,she committed a crime by committing suicide,
So I think you know that.I approach it from that angle, and
speaking with families, I pay closeattention to the language imus using the words
clean, addict, alcoholic. They'revery commonly used, but for somebody who
(31:06):
is in denial, that may feelvery harsh. And I think Rob touched
on it too. Is like identifyingthe role of the family member who is
in denial, because you may havea caretaker who is the mother, and
it feels a little bit like enablingit. Maybe she's enabling, maybe she's
not, whatever, But I knowfor me also when my mother was suffering
from substance abuse in her active addiction, the way my mind would protect itself
(31:27):
that I could look at somebody whowas a drug addict, eating out of
trash cans and doing those things,like that's what I thought, but like
not my mom, because I hadthis certain expectation of what a mother was
to be. So I take alook at the role of the family member,
what is the expectations that they have, and what is it that they're
experiencing that's going against those expectations andaddress it that way. Yeah, you
(31:48):
know, talk about codependency, thereare people that probably don't even realize right
that they're feeding into, they're actuallysubsidizing in a sense that person's addiction by
either being in denial or perhaps participatingwhile they are also in substance use disorder.
There's a lot of family dynamics,the complexities of that where people don't
(32:14):
probably even realize it that they mightactually be by their behavior and their words
and how they act, actually supportingthat addiction, supporting that behavior and that's
the thing that we're trying to breakthrough, right in terms of eliminating the
stigma using words and ways that areappropriate as opposed to dedgmentally. And back
(32:36):
to you, Tony, you talkabout when it comes down to it,
what is the reason why are peopleself medicating? Getting down to the trauma
or the emotional issues that have tobe addressed, the problem that family members
face. There's a lose lose situation. You know, everyone I speak to
you know they're looking for an answer. And if I'm going to be absolutely
(33:00):
candid, a parent, someone whoany loved one is in a lose lose
situation. So do I let themstay at my home? Do I give
them money to make sure that theydon't have to go on the street and
do anything that they don't want todo, and then this way they can
be at home and then I cantake care of them. And I go,
(33:21):
well, you're enabling them to continuethe behavior that they're doing, so
that's an absolute truth. Or doI throw them out and do I tell
them no longer? Will I dealwith this and they need to go?
But to another word that I despiseis hit rock bottom, So they need
to go and they need to hitrock bottom and they need to be and
I'm like, okay, well thenthey can go on the street and they
can do something, and then theycan get killed and they can overdose.
(33:44):
So you're looking at a family memberwho's even an answer, And I'm telling
them, if you do A,there's a chance that your loved one is
going to die. If you doB, there's a great chance that your
loved one is going to die.And then they look at me as if,
well, what are you saying tome? Are you telling me that
there's no hope? And then Isay to them, all you can do
is love them and support them andlet them know you will be there.
(34:07):
And you have to accept the factthat you cannot live someone else's life for
them. You cannot make their decisionsfor them. You can only make decisions
for you. And you have tohope. And if you're a praying person,
you have to pray for guidance.You have to pray for hope.
(34:29):
You have to speak to people andtalk to people, and you have to
know that it is not under yourcontrol. But as long as you tell
someone in my eyes, I loveyou, I'm here for you when you
are hungry. I will feed you. When you need clothes, I will
give it to you. When youneed shelter, I will find you shelter.
But what I will not do isI will not give you money,
(34:51):
the saddest thing in the world.I co wrote a song with a friend
of mine called Please Don't Let MeSay Goodbye, and I have not release
that song yet because it is oneof the most difficult songs for me to
sing. But it is from theperspective of watching someone that you love more
than anything, begging them not tolet you watch them die in front of
(35:13):
you, but to realize that there'snothing that you can do except love them
and tell them that there is alwaysa bridge for them to you, and
that is the only control that youhave. And also finding the right resources
and the right support, whether it'sworking with the recovery center or working with
(35:34):
professionals that can give you the guidanceto help the person that you love get
on that path. Now, weknow so many stories that are ending in
tragedy, but we have some storiesthat have happy endings to good endings,
and I wonder Rob and Ashley sharewith us some successes that you've had and
really how you got there. Yeah. I remember a family I've spoken with
(35:59):
recently. It was a nineteen yearold daughter, and she was the only
one advocating for her father right andeverybody else, her siblings and her mother
had kind of gotten to the pointwhere they had written this person off and
just because of all the behaviors andeverything that had just kind of culminated to
that point. And so she hadcalled and wanted to talk through what opportunities
(36:23):
exist, you know, and wewere able to go through her family system
and really start to empower her thather words do matter right and that she's
not alone in all of this.Maybe the thought process for all the other
individuals had gotten to the point wherethey had set their own boundaries right so
(36:45):
that they can help protect themselves fromthis person. But as soon as this
daughter had said, you know,hey, guys, I need help,
Like I'm really struggling with this.I'm not ready to let things go.
There are things that are left onright, And that was enough just to
motivate the rest of the family systemto come together for a phone call so
(37:08):
that we can talk through what weneed to say, how we need to
say it, so that when theintervention happened. There wasn't anything left unsaid,
right, So that individual then canfeel like, hey, I've done
everything that I can with the knowledgethat I have to do to help save
(37:30):
my father's life. It was itwas wonderful, right. I get goosebumps
when families come together and they sharethis love and this concern with their loved
ones. They don't always say yes, right, but they set the seed.
They then become the mirror right,because not only are we asking that
(37:51):
loved one to get help, we'realso asking the family system to walk their
own parallel path, right, becauseif not, they can go to all
the tree centers that they will,they can come back out and they come
back to the same people, places, and things and home life encompasses all
of that. Then likelihood of longlasting recovery gets diminished. So we want
(38:14):
to set these families up for success. We want to make sure that there's
nothing left unsaid. You know,I tell families all the time, you
might have one shot at this.And if we have one shot, do
we have all the right players?Have we put all the necessary work into
this so that we can then sharethat with our loved ones, So that
when you walk away you feel thatthere's everything that you have been able to
(38:37):
do to this point. Wow,let nothing be left unsaid. I love
That's that's great advice for all ofus in every circumstance of life. Ashley
success. I think we have successevery single day in my role and in
the mission center's role at Recovery Centersof America. Truly, I think that
(38:57):
all of us on a certain levelare unquote intervening in a way because oftentimes
I take a look at my teammateswho are on the phones with either family
members or patients who have no plan, which equals no hope, and at
the end of that phone call,there is a plan which equals hope,
(39:19):
you know. And I think thatsometimes it doesn't all happen on that same
exact phone call where somebody says yes, but like Rob said, the seed
was planted. So if you thinkabout the number of phone calls that we
take a day and the number ofseeds that are being planted, the nourishment
that can come from that alone isa success in my eyes, you know.
And I always feel personal reward whenI am on a phone call with
(39:42):
a family member and I'm able toget through to that family member. And
then a double win is when I'mlike, hey, is your loved one
there can I talk to him?And I get on the phone with that
individual and we work through some objectionsand we work through some feelings and we
talk about the pain and I'm ableto relate to them, and like,
these phone calls are so important.I am reward or did truly every single
day despite some of the things thatdon't go ideal, Right right, Pete.
(40:06):
If people want more information about allthe resources available at Recovery Centers of
America, where do they go?You can find more information at Recoverycentersfamerica dot
com or call us twenty four hoursa day, seven days a week at
eight four four two five Recovery TonyQuick final word. Every day that your
loved one is breathing is a success. It is a battle of inches.
(40:30):
It is not a battle of feetor miles. It is inches. There
is always hope when someone is stillalive and someone is still breathing, those
are the successes of every day.Those small successes are what makes the journey
worth taking. Rob Strubber, who'sDirector of Intervention, Ashley Davis, family
(40:53):
support Specialist and VP of Clinical ServicesPete Vernick. Thanks to rob Actually and
Pede in this conversation about family interventions. I'm Lorraine Ballad Morrel. I'm Tony
Luke Junior. See you next time.
Hello, and welcome to Recovery threesixty, the podcast dedicated to exploring the
pathways to treatment and recovery, broughtto you by Recovery Centers of America.
I'm Lorraine Ballard Morrel, Directive Newsand Community Affairs for iHeartMedia, Philadelphia,
and I am joined by the fabulousTony Luke Junior. Hey Tony, Hello,
(00:26):
Lorraine, how are you? Iam doing great. We're continuing this
journey together on talking about recovery,yes, which is a very important issue
today more than ever been, andwe are so thrilled to be your guide
on this journey towards better understanding theworld of healing in the many ways individuals
find their way to recovery, wellas our listeners who've been following us know
(00:51):
already. In each episode, wesit down with experts, survivors, and
advocates in the field of treatment andrecovery. We'll unravel the complexities of addiction,
mental health, and physical wellness whileshedding light on the diverse health and
physical wellness issues with diverse therapies,interventions, and approaches available. In today's
episode, we're actually going to betalking about family intervention well family intervention and
(01:15):
substance use disorder is a vital andstructured approach aimed at helping individuals struggling with
substance use disorder, and today we'lltalk about what family and friends need to
know before coming together to express concerns, to set boundaries, and encourage their
loved one to seek treat. Well, you know, Tony, before we
(01:37):
get into talking with our panel ofexperts, I know that this is an
issue that is especially close to yourheart because you have been doing so much
to raise awareness about how families needto work with interventions and ways that move
people towards recovery, and your personallived experience has really informed our overall conversation
(01:57):
about recovery. Well, I justthink that the family seems to get lost
in the shuffle. I just didan event over the weekend, and after
I got done speaking and had performedone of the tracks from the album,
a woman had come over to meand she said, Hey, listen,
my son is acting this way.He's doing this, and he's doing that.
(02:19):
Do you think he's using? Isthat what he's doing? Do you
think he's using? And I said, well, it's impossible for me to
know that unless I speak with yourson. But if his behavior has changed
dramatically from what it was, thenI would say that there's a good chance
that he's self medicating through through something. And it's just that so many parents
(02:42):
and loved ones are unaware. Parentsare like, I need to speak to
someone that can give me some kindof answers. What am I looking for?
What are the signs? Where doI go from here? Which is
why I think this discussion is vitallyimportant because there are a million questions that
family members need to have answered.They just don't know where to go to
(03:04):
get the answer. Well, thatis the perfect lead into our discussion today
because we're going to be talking aboutsome of the things that we need to
look for in terms of helping ourfamily members join the recovery path. And
with us are Rob Strubber, who'sDirector of Intervention, Ashley Davis, who
is a family support specialist, andVP of Clinical Services, Pete Vernick Tony.
(03:29):
I know that we were just talkingabout exactly what that mother was asking,
is what do we need to know? Right? Yeah? Well,
I mean people are looking for answersand they're just not getting them. And
I understand. You know, ifsomeone got forbid, if someone got shot.
The focus of the attention is tostop the bleeding, stop the bleeding,
but you know there's family members thatare looking around. They're like,
(03:51):
well, what is the doctor doing? Why are they able to stop the
bleeding? Is that my love,I'm going to die? It's like are
they taking to the hospital? Theyhave all of these questions on. Unfortunately,
there are times where all the concentrationneeds to go towards the person that
is in trouble, and we forgetthat not knowing is the worst possible thing
(04:15):
that your mind can go through mentally. It's the not knowing, not having
any answers what happens next, wheredo we go next? What do we
do? And I think that wereally need to start concentrating with the same
vigor that we use in helping thosethat are struggling, in helping the families
to cope and understand what is goingon because they don't. Well, Pete,
(04:40):
let's talk about that. Why doessomeone need an intervention? At what
point do you get to? Interventionis really what's called for? And then
what does an interventionist actually do well? So, an intervention in substance use
disorder treatment, what it looks likeis an opportunity for somebody's family members or
friends, other important people in theirlife to come together and share with them
(05:01):
their concern, that they've noticed thingschanging in the person's behavior in their life,
and that they're going to encourage themto get into treatment. I think
that one of the things that alot of people think about when they can
think about an intervention, they thinkabout movies that they've seen television in the
media. It's a bunch of peoplegetting around and pointing fingers and accusations and
things like that. And as wetalk about so often, that's not something
(05:26):
that's helpful for people. It's notabout shame. It's not about this happened
right now, or I'm not speakingto you again. It could be about
setting boundaries and saying that I canno longer support this pattern of behavior,
I can no longer be around youif this is going to continue to happen.
But really, what it looks likeis it's more about expressing concern,
it's more about providing support. It'smore about communicating with the individual than not.
(05:49):
So people get to the point wherethey want to have an intervention where
a person is clearly in need ofhelp and need of support but is not
open to that on their own.Gives people an opportunity to share that information.
Rob. As Pete mentioned, wehave a certain view of what an
intervention is based on all the TVshows intervention and all the other popular culture
(06:12):
that's out there. And I thinkwhat Pete said is so important because I
think we have a certain idea ofwhat intervention means. Right. It's to
confront the one that we love,you know, one at a time.
This is how you hurt me,this is why you need help. But
that's really not the way an interventionneeds to go, right, No,
absolutely not. It should be theexact opposite. And when families have run
(06:35):
out of options, when they feellike they've tried everything to help their loved
ones, before they give up hopereach out. We need professionals to be
able to help guide families through thebeginning of their own recovery journey, to
help the families, so to speak, see the forest through the trees.
A certified intervention professional will carefully assessthe situation and help the family put together
(06:58):
a team of concerned friends and familymembers to help educate and create new messaging
and a new pathway forward. Notonly for the individual, but also for
the family as well, and thenutilizing that team's support and the love and
concern in a safe and collaborative fashionallows the team to really highlight how important
(07:20):
their loved one is and how everyoneis embarking on their own recovery journey with
them, not against them. Tony, Well, I have to tell you,
the lack of that of what hejust said, the lack of being
able to have access to doing that, brings up one of the things I
(07:42):
speak about all the time. Youknow, the thing I remember most with
my son Tony was that he trulybelieved, deep inside his heart that everyone
that he loved would be better offand their lives would be so much better
if he just died now. Hebelieved that with every fiber of his being,
(08:07):
because we never knew how to communicateto him how important he was and
how much value his life had.Because those that are struggling, you know,
with addiction, to me, italways boils down to the mental health
aspect of what someone is going throughand what someone doesn't understand or what someone
(08:31):
cannot face. But the families doexactly what you had just said. So
they get in a room together andthey all think that they know what they're
doing, and they don't because wedon't know what we're doing. And if
you don't have a professional that isinvolved in that intervention to kind of orchestrate
that intervention, it becomes a blamefest that becomes you hurt me, You're
(08:52):
no good, why did you dothis to me? And then all it
does is compile the guilt that someoneis feeling already about them. So,
if there's a scenario where you canmake someone feel worse than they feel already,
do an intervention without a professional thereto help you get through it and
to guide you and to get itdone, you will take a situation at
(09:13):
his bed and make it even tentimes worse. Now, don't be under
the assumption, under the assumption thateven bringing in a professional and doing an
intervention, that this is the cureall that all of a sudden they're going
to go, oh, I neversaw it that way, and now that
I see it that way, I'mgood and we can do this. No,
(09:35):
the secret of this is always patience. The secret of this is never
giving up. The secret of thisis continue to show love and support because
no one, and I mean noone, I don't care the greatest professionals
in the world. If you arenot ready to receive that help, if
you are not open to wanting toget to the root and the issue,
(10:00):
you can have all the interventions inthe world and nothing will stop. That's
why it's important to have a professionalto know the right buttons to push,
to know the right questions to ask, and to keep people where they need
to be so that it is aloving and caring environment that you are dealing
with that people can respond Ashley Tonybrings up such an important point, and
(10:24):
that is the importance of having guidancefrom a professional. And he also brings
up another point that I think isso powerful and so challenging, and that
is that person who's not ready toaccept that they need an intervention, they
need help. So in the workthat you do and how you approach someone
(10:48):
who's in that position, which canbe very powerfully strong moving them off that
What are some of the things thatan interventionist can suggest or support family members
in moving that conversation for that personin a way that they will be open
(11:09):
to treatment and recovery. Yeah,and I think Tony, you brought up
a really good point that when somebodyis struggling with substance abuse and you have
a family member, they're looking atthe bleeding like, how do I stop
the bleeding? How do I stopthe bleeding? And so often I think
that treatment facilities are focusing directly onthe patient. Obviously, that's the that's
(11:31):
the most apparent, that is thebiggest consequence of using. And I do
believe that families get left behind sometimes, and so what my position is is
that there is a place for familymembers to call, and that yes,
while we are addressing the patient,we are addressing their son, their daughter,
their mother, their cousin, whoever, their friend. You know,
we're also focusing directly on them.And although their loved one may not be
(11:56):
ready to receive services, is thatloved one ready to receive service? Because
that's the idea, is that eventuallythe goal is to get your loved one
to agree to commit to treatment.But like you said, if a person's
not willing, they're not ready,you can counsel them, you can pray
over them, you can put themin front of a judge. And if
they're not ready to stop using,they will not stop using. And I
(12:18):
think that a lot of family members'friends have a hard time accepting that,
and so that is really like mygoal is to work with a family to
get them to a place where theycan understand that that is a scenario,
that it might not happen today.And that's what I see a lot is
that family members like they need togo today, right now, right now.
I need is fixed right now.It's and I understand, I too
(12:39):
have personal lived experience of losing afamily member. My mother. My mother
lost her life to you know,the disease of addiction, and she suffered
a fatal overdose. And yeah,I mean she wasn't she wasn't ready,
but I was. That's what hasgiven me the ability to sit here today
(13:00):
and I've been on my own healingjourney through that. And that's the goal,
is that I can provide a pathwayfor these families to start their own
journey towards recovery. Right it's whatyou're saying. It sounds like it's so
important not only for the person thatyou're trying to get into recovery, but
for that family member is Tony,and you have indicated there's this urgency you
(13:24):
want them in recovery treatment now,and they may not be at that place
yet, So how do you howdo you address that? Because the urgency
is there, You're thinking life ordeath? Is Tony, I know you
did life or death. You're alwaysthinking life for death. But the reality,
the acceptance of that is the hardestthing for a family member to accept
(13:46):
is the fact that you have nocontrol over that situation. You do not.
You can only control the way youreact to that situation when you bring
to that situation. But as muchas you want the problem to be solved
immediately, you're not dealing with asituation. You know. People asked me
(14:09):
once, They said to me,Tony, what does addiction look like from
a family's point of view? Andmost people see addiction like this, Okay,
So when they ask me what itlooks like, I always do this
and they grow and for our radioaudience, oh, I'm sorry. So
(14:31):
I have my fingers. My thumbsare touching each other. It almost looks
like a pair of wings. It'snot it's wings. It's open. It
looks like spider legs, all ofthese legs. And they look at me
and they go, I don't understand, and I go, you think to
solve this is you're looking at thisone finger, when it is all of
these every bit of these things makesup the one thing that you're looking at.
(14:56):
So all of these issues need tobe addressed in order to understand and
make someone that is suffering understand.I will tell a very short story,
but I think it is very relevant. I was working at one of my
locations and a gentleman walked in andhe came up to me and he said,
I need your help, and Isaid, how can I help you?
(15:16):
He said, I've been to I'vebeen to recovery twelve times. I
go to meetings and nothing is helpingme. And I just feel like you
can make the difference. And I'mlike, well, why do you think
that. I was like, I'veseen you, I've heard you speak.
There's something that you say. There'ssomething about you that makes me want to
(15:37):
get help. And I said,okay, well if that works for you,
then I'm here for you. Andthen he would be fine. And
I had taken to rehab and everythingwas great, and he had gone through
rehab and then he had relapsed.And he had gone through rehab and he
had relapsed. And then finally wesat down and I said to him,
why are you self medicating? Why? Well became like, I don't want
you're lying to me. I wantto know why, why are you something?
(16:00):
And I pushed him and I pushedhim and I pushed him and I
pushed him to the point where hewas so upset with me that he screamed
at me, it's my mom.And he had never said that before,
and he just unloaded all of theyears that he had been holding inside of
the issue that he had had withhis mom. And he cried. And
(16:23):
I said, now now you canbe helped because now you've admitted why you're
self medicating. And that is thefirst The first step is understanding why you
are doing what you are doing.Why do you need to self medicate?
But you can detox, you cando all of these things until you can
(16:48):
get to the root of the reasonthat someone is self medicating. It is
a hamster wheel. It's a cyclethat goes on and on and on,
Which is why I believe that paramountis the mental health issue of people that
are self medicating. It is tome, it is the number one focused
(17:08):
even above as controversial, again asI tend to be, the mental health
issue is paramount, even above thesobriety. It is paramount, even above
the detox. It is the mostparamount thing that is possible that you need
to address, because nothing else worksuntil that is addressed. Pete and Rob
(17:33):
a couple of things that Tony said. Certainly he was a one man intervention
right here, so and we seethat in this case it made a difference
in this guy's life. When familymembers are ready to create this intervention,
how do they assemble the team.What is the most effective group of people
(17:56):
that will come together to make thiswork in a way that will open up
that individual to recovery. What aresome of the first steps they need to
take. Well, I think inidentifying the team, you have to keep
in mind the fact that every family, just like every patient is different.
Every family is different, and thereare some people who their family may be
the closest to them, and thoseare the people that they'll listen to.
(18:17):
Those are the people that have informationor support they want to share with the
person. But in some cases itmay be friends, coworkers, other people
in their life. You know,to Tony's example, where this individual mother
was one of the things that hehad been holding on to for so long,
there's a very close family member thatmaybe you know in that moment wouldn't
be productive to have be a partof that. So really it's going to
(18:38):
be different for every person. Robcan talk a little bit about how you
would go about selecting and putting thatteam together. When I speak to families,
I asked them, you know who'simportant in your loved one's life,
and don't leave anybody out right whois concerned for them and who would be
concerned if they knew the situation.So often there's so much shame, there's
(18:59):
a lot of blame, a lotof guilt, right stigma that's attached to
substance use disorders and mental health concerns. So you may have one shot at
this. So I say to families, who are we going to pull together
that not only can help support yourloved one, but also support you through
this recovery journey. Yeah, Ashley, I think Rob said something really interesting,
(19:22):
which is that not every family memberis going to be right to be
part of this right. So theyare going to be some family members that
are going to be toxic in thissituation like that, and there'll be other
family members who obviously are going tobe open to suggestions and guidance and all
that sort of thing. So howdo you address those family members that want
(19:44):
to be a part They're rare togo. They want to be a part
of this intervention, but you knowthey are not supposed to be there.
Yeah, so I think that's atough one, right, And oftentimes,
you know, when I'm speaking witha family member over the phone, I
do gather those individuals, right andI take a look at the family system,
and I just gather information. It'snot always my role in my responsibility
(20:08):
to say who is and who shouldn'tbe involved. You know, if the
family member is expressing to me thatthe cousin is somebody that is concerned or
would be concerned, but then goeson to express that this cousin is also
struggling with substances, you know,then I just take that information and I
usually will pass it on to somebodylike Rob and ask for some guidance on
(20:30):
that. You know, do wethink this individual does it make sense for
them to be there? And Robreally kind of picks up at that point
on how to address the family.So I don't know if you want to
kind of touch on that a littlebit more. Yeah, it's a bit
of a process, right, Soafter they call in and speak with Ashley,
they're going to be sent over toa certified intervention professional. Their role
is to really dive in and understandthe family system at a much deeper level,
(20:56):
right, and really understand what makespeople tick. So Ashley would have
found out that possibly the cousin wouldbe a person who may not be advantageous
to have in that intervention. Butwe're going to ask that individual a lot
more questions, right, and wemay actually invite them to what we call
a pre intervention, just so thatwe can understand what their motivation is for
(21:19):
wanting to participate. Is it trulyout of love? Is it truly out
of concern? Is there an ulteriormotive? Is there an opportunity that we
may need to help more people,like in Ashley's situation where we may have
multiple individuals that are suffering with substanceuse disorder or mental health concerns. So
if it fits within everyone who isor would be concerned for the loved one,
(21:42):
and we can get them to channelthat message of love and concern and
be specific just to that individual,then there may be some space for that
individual to participate and then you know, if there are any abnormalities, so
to speak, at the actual intervention, then that can be dealt with either
in real time or actually we getletters that we were able to share with
(22:04):
those loved ones, and we havean opportunity to actually review those as well,
so we do have a pretty goodsense as to what that individual might
be sharing. Tony. Something thatRob said and something you've also talked about
a lot, which is the denialthat often happens in a family. Had
you we talked about the people whoare toxic and they want to do this
(22:26):
thing when to do an intervention,but they are also families that don't even
want to talk about it. Youin a previous podcast talked about someone who
I think criticized you for saying whatyour son died of. They didn't want
to talk about the fact that itwas substance use disorder, right, So
there's a denial factor. There's alot of secrecy in so many families,
(22:47):
and it was someone very close inthe family. And I have no ill
will at all. In fact,I sadly I completely understood why that was,
because this stigma is so horrific.I've repeated this more than once on
the podcast, and I repeated everytime that I speak, that heroine took
my son's life, but the stigmais what killed him. And I have
(23:11):
no doubt about that whatsoever. Andit was a gentleman. The reason I
do what I do today wasn't anelderly gentleman had walked into one of my
stores. Because when my son died, it became like almost national news.
I mean, it was on everynews station, in every magazine, in
(23:32):
every newspaper, you know, andI was flooded with people calling me.
And I remember the media calling mesaying to me, listen, we're just
going to say that he passed wherewe're not going to say that, you
know. And in the beginning,you know, I listened to it and
(23:52):
my first thought was like, thankGod that they have enough respect for me
to do that. Then the partof me was like, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait a minute, what you know? And it
bothered me. And then an elderlygentleman came into the store and he said,
Hey, I just heard on thenews that your son had passed away.
So I just want to tell youI'm very sorry. I said,
do you mine if I ask youa question? And I said, no,
(24:14):
what is it? And he saidwhat was it? Cancer? And
I said no, he died ofa heroin overdose. And he got very
angry and he said to me,why do they do this to us?
Why did he do that to you? Why? And I'm listening to him,
and I'm watching him, and there'sa part of me that is saying
(24:37):
that this man is trying to becomforting to me by showing this anger of
what happened to me. And thenI literally, for that moment, for
the first time, I saw theway my son saw the world looking at
him, and I realized that atmy journey was to obliterate the stigma that
(25:04):
was attached to make people understand thatthis is a mental health and a trauma
issue, and addiction is nothing excepta byproduct of self medicating those issues.
It is not a single thing.We have always treated it as a single
thing, as a gunshot wound,which it is not. It is a
(25:25):
byproduct of self medicating that trauma andthat mental health. And that's when I
knew that I would devote every livingsecond of my life to obliterating the way
the world looks at those that arestruggling. As someone who is ill as
someone who needs to not get clean, but needs to get well. I
even despise the word getting clean becauseto me, it gives me the image
(25:49):
of dirty. And none of thesepeople that are struggling are dirty. They
are ill, and they are sufferingwith a mental health issue that needs to
be addressed above all things, becausewe all, let me tell you something,
we all struggle from self medicating,every single person in this room,
(26:10):
whether it's I need my coffee inthe morning, or I need to go
out and smoke a cigarette, orwith me, it's I need to eat.
I need to eat carbs. Sowhen people grab that self righteous attitude
of well, I deal with myproblems, No, you don't. You
smoke three packs of cigarette today,you eat yourself to death. You know,
you drink a ton of coffee andenergy drinks. You are self medicating.
(26:34):
You're just self medicating in a differentway. But we all self medicate,
So don't cop a righteous attitude ofhow much better you are of dealing
with situations. You're just not usingdrugs and alcohol as your means of self
medicating, but you're self medicating nonetheless. Sorry, I get how do you
(26:55):
really feel about that? Tony justkidding. Listen, the whole idea of
stigma and how that impacts a family'srelationship to substance use disorder. It's so
powerful. We're really doing our best, and Tony has done such an amazing
job raising awareness and about how weneed to have these discussions and talk about
it and put it out in theopen. But denial is very much a
(27:18):
part of this whole world. Familymembers, many of them don't want to
admit that there's something wrong, sodenial PETE is obviously a real obstacle for
many families. How do you addressthe denial and Robin then Ashley, Well,
first of all, I think youhave to try to understand where the
denial is coming from, because itcould be, you know, we only
(27:41):
see a small part. I thinkyou gave the example of you know,
it looks like this holding up myhand with making an o that you see
just only a small amount of thatperson's life. So people may not see
the consequences of the actions, theymay not see all of the actions,
they may not see everything going onwith that individual. So denial could just
simply be you know, oh no, I you know, had lunch of
(28:02):
them the other day, everything seemedfine. It could be because of stigma.
Of course, it could be notwanting to admit that this is something
that can actually happen in my family. This is something that happens to other
people, This is something that happensin other families, other communities, not
to me and to the people thatI love. And part of it could
be something that the person themselves isdealing with that if I admit that I
(28:22):
think that this is a problem,then I have to admit that to your
point, what I'm doing is alsoproblematic. You know, we do see
families who sometimes will enable that behavior, or they may be the one that
a person is drinking with, orusing drugs with, or is involved in
that with the person. So manydifferent reasons for denial, So I think
that before you can try to addressthat, you have to understand why is
(28:44):
this person denying that this is aproblem. Is it that they don't see
the whole picture? Is it thatthey don't want to see the whole picture?
What's really going on with them?I've been Denial is definitely a slippery
slope, and there can be varyingdegrees of it throughout the process. So
if I were to take a forinstance, and I had a mom give
me a call and start to showthose signs of denial. I think in
(29:07):
some ways, the fact that shecalled is a way that she's reaching out
and asking for help, right.And I think a lot of times the
family members that maybe in denial knowthat there are other family members that know
that there's another situation going on.You know, it becomes a coping mechanism,
right, and one that we needto be able to survive as we
go through day by day, andeverybody copes and responds differently, right,
(29:30):
So it's really important that we bringawareness into the situation. By bringing in
the other concerned family members and friends, it's easier to help that family member
struggling with denial understand the gravity ofthe situation. Also, it's easier for
them to accept the support that theirloved ones are supplying as well, not
just for the individual who needs treatment, but the family system as a whole.
(29:55):
So just being able to know that, you know, we've got somebody
that comes to the table and we'reable to bring the larger group together,
we can talk through those issues,and oftentimes we may have that individual identify
and say yeah, I'm doing thosetypes of behaviors, what do I do?
And that's really the platform for usto then be able to build upon
that and say, hey, we'rejust going to keep moving one foot in
(30:18):
front of the other. We're goingto learn from what has worked, We're
going to throw away everything else thathasn't, and we're going to build upon
your straints. Yeah, Ashley,did you want to add anything to that?
Yeah, there's a couple things thatI'll add. Antonia, I love
your passion, really, I feelit. I feel it, and I
think language is really important. Anotherpersonal experience of mine. I had a
(30:41):
baby's sister who died by suicide,and to use the word committed was like
committing a crime. You know,she committed a crime by committing suicide,
So I think you know that.I approach it from that angle, and
speaking with families, I pay closeattention to the language imus using the words
clean, addict, alcoholic. They'revery commonly used, but for somebody who
(31:06):
is in denial, that may feelvery harsh. And I think Rob touched
on it too. Is like identifyingthe role of the family member who is
in denial, because you may havea caretaker who is the mother, and
it feels a little bit like enablingit. Maybe she's enabling, maybe she's
not, whatever, But I knowfor me also when my mother was suffering
from substance abuse in her active addiction, the way my mind would protect itself
(31:27):
that I could look at somebody whowas a drug addict, eating out of
trash cans and doing those things,like that's what I thought, but like
not my mom, because I hadthis certain expectation of what a mother was
to be. So I take alook at the role of the family member,
what is the expectations that they have, and what is it that they're
experiencing that's going against those expectations andaddress it that way. Yeah, you
(31:48):
know, talk about codependency, thereare people that probably don't even realize right
that they're feeding into, they're actuallysubsidizing in a sense that person's addiction by
either being in denial or perhaps participatingwhile they are also in substance use disorder.
There's a lot of family dynamics,the complexities of that where people don't
(32:14):
probably even realize it that they mightactually be by their behavior and their words
and how they act, actually supportingthat addiction, supporting that behavior and that's
the thing that we're trying to breakthrough, right in terms of eliminating the
stigma using words and ways that areappropriate as opposed to dedgmentally. And back
(32:36):
to you, Tony, you talkabout when it comes down to it,
what is the reason why are peopleself medicating? Getting down to the trauma
or the emotional issues that have tobe addressed, the problem that family members
face. There's a lose lose situation. You know, everyone I speak to
you know they're looking for an answer. And if I'm going to be absolutely
(33:00):
candid, a parent, someone whoany loved one is in a lose lose
situation. So do I let themstay at my home? Do I give
them money to make sure that theydon't have to go on the street and
do anything that they don't want todo, and then this way they can
be at home and then I cantake care of them. And I go,
(33:21):
well, you're enabling them to continuethe behavior that they're doing, so
that's an absolute truth. Or doI throw them out and do I tell
them no longer? Will I dealwith this and they need to go?
But to another word that I despiseis hit rock bottom, So they need
to go and they need to hitrock bottom and they need to be and
I'm like, okay, well thenthey can go on the street and they
can do something, and then theycan get killed and they can overdose.
(33:44):
So you're looking at a family memberwho's even an answer, And I'm telling
them, if you do A,there's a chance that your loved one is
going to die. If you doB, there's a great chance that your
loved one is going to die.And then they look at me as if,
well, what are you saying tome? Are you telling me that
there's no hope? And then Isay to them, all you can do
is love them and support them andlet them know you will be there.
(34:07):
And you have to accept the factthat you cannot live someone else's life for
them. You cannot make their decisionsfor them. You can only make decisions
for you. And you have tohope. And if you're a praying person,
you have to pray for guidance.You have to pray for hope.
(34:29):
You have to speak to people andtalk to people, and you have to
know that it is not under yourcontrol. But as long as you tell
someone in my eyes, I loveyou, I'm here for you when you
are hungry. I will feed you. When you need clothes, I will
give it to you. When youneed shelter, I will find you shelter.
But what I will not do isI will not give you money,
(34:51):
the saddest thing in the world.I co wrote a song with a friend
of mine called Please Don't Let MeSay Goodbye, and I have not release
that song yet because it is oneof the most difficult songs for me to
sing. But it is from theperspective of watching someone that you love more
than anything, begging them not tolet you watch them die in front of
(35:13):
you, but to realize that there'snothing that you can do except love them
and tell them that there is alwaysa bridge for them to you, and
that is the only control that youhave. And also finding the right resources
and the right support, whether it'sworking with the recovery center or working with
(35:34):
professionals that can give you the guidanceto help the person that you love get
on that path. Now, weknow so many stories that are ending in
tragedy, but we have some storiesthat have happy endings to good endings,
and I wonder Rob and Ashley sharewith us some successes that you've had and
really how you got there. Yeah. I remember a family I've spoken with
(35:59):
recently. It was a nineteen yearold daughter, and she was the only
one advocating for her father right andeverybody else, her siblings and her mother
had kind of gotten to the pointwhere they had written this person off and
just because of all the behaviors andeverything that had just kind of culminated to
that point. And so she hadcalled and wanted to talk through what opportunities
(36:23):
exist, you know, and wewere able to go through her family system
and really start to empower her thather words do matter right and that she's
not alone in all of this.Maybe the thought process for all the other
individuals had gotten to the point wherethey had set their own boundaries right so
(36:45):
that they can help protect themselves fromthis person. But as soon as this
daughter had said, you know,hey, guys, I need help,
Like I'm really struggling with this.I'm not ready to let things go.
There are things that are left onright, And that was enough just to
motivate the rest of the family systemto come together for a phone call so
(37:08):
that we can talk through what weneed to say, how we need to
say it, so that when theintervention happened. There wasn't anything left unsaid,
right, So that individual then canfeel like, hey, I've done
everything that I can with the knowledgethat I have to do to help save
(37:30):
my father's life. It was itwas wonderful, right. I get goosebumps
when families come together and they sharethis love and this concern with their loved
ones. They don't always say yes, right, but they set the seed.
They then become the mirror right,because not only are we asking that
(37:51):
loved one to get help, we'realso asking the family system to walk their
own parallel path, right, becauseif not, they can go to all
the tree centers that they will,they can come back out and they come
back to the same people, places, and things and home life encompasses all
of that. Then likelihood of longlasting recovery gets diminished. So we want
(38:14):
to set these families up for success. We want to make sure that there's
nothing left unsaid. You know,I tell families all the time, you
might have one shot at this.And if we have one shot, do
we have all the right players?Have we put all the necessary work into
this so that we can then sharethat with our loved ones, So that
when you walk away you feel thatthere's everything that you have been able to
(38:37):
do to this point. Wow,let nothing be left unsaid. I love
That's that's great advice for all ofus in every circumstance of life. Ashley
success. I think we have successevery single day in my role and in
the mission center's role at Recovery Centersof America. Truly, I think that
(38:57):
all of us on a certain levelare unquote intervening in a way because oftentimes
I take a look at my teammateswho are on the phones with either family
members or patients who have no plan, which equals no hope, and at
the end of that phone call,there is a plan which equals hope,
(39:19):
you know. And I think thatsometimes it doesn't all happen on that same
exact phone call where somebody says yes, but like Rob said, the seed
was planted. So if you thinkabout the number of phone calls that we
take a day and the number ofseeds that are being planted, the nourishment
that can come from that alone isa success in my eyes, you know.
And I always feel personal reward whenI am on a phone call with
(39:42):
a family member and I'm able toget through to that family member. And
then a double win is when I'mlike, hey, is your loved one
there can I talk to him?And I get on the phone with that
individual and we work through some objectionsand we work through some feelings and we
talk about the pain and I'm ableto relate to them, and like,
these phone calls are so important.I am reward or did truly every single
day despite some of the things thatdon't go ideal, Right right, Pete.
(40:06):
If people want more information about allthe resources available at Recovery Centers of
America, where do they go?You can find more information at Recoverycentersfamerica dot
com or call us twenty four hoursa day, seven days a week at
eight four four two five Recovery TonyQuick final word. Every day that your
loved one is breathing is a success. It is a battle of inches.
(40:30):
It is not a battle of feetor miles. It is inches. There
is always hope when someone is stillalive and someone is still breathing, those
are the successes of every day.Those small successes are what makes the journey
worth taking. Rob Strubber, who'sDirector of Intervention, Ashley Davis, family
(40:53):
support Specialist and VP of Clinical ServicesPete Vernick. Thanks to rob Actually and
Pede in this conversation about family interventions. I'm Lorraine Ballad Morrel. I'm Tony
Luke Junior. See you next time.
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