Episode 3 - Penix, Diggs and Seahawks' 1st round trade options.

Chuck Powell and Jacson Bevens break down Michael Penix’s rapid rise and the philosophy behind the Stefon Diggs trade, while diving into the 2024 DL class and discussing the Seahawks’ trade-back options in the 1st round.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Is Michael Pennox Junior a first roundlock? Are the Seahawks trading out of
the sixteenth pick? How does theStefan Diggs trade affect the NFL landscape?
Chuck and I break down all thelatest developments surrounding the NFL Draft in today's
episode of Whitewater Drafting. Let's slidehim up. I'm Jackson Bevans and I'm

(00:32):
Chuck Powell, and this is WhitewaterDrafting. Welcome back to Whitewater Drafting.
I am Jackson Bevans, and Iam joined once again by my friend and
fellow degenerate, Chuck Powell of kJR. Chuck, how are you?
I'm great? Yeah. I reallythink that if we need to do the
life preservers though, I think that'sa really good touch. Since this is

(00:55):
on video, we just wear lifepreservers on the show. Maybe I'll just
right before, like go in theshower and wet my hair. Like we
just came off the rapids of breakingdown the draft. Just something to consider.
Mike's the big picture guy here.He knows what visual works, but
just throwing it out there as apossibility. It's called brainstorming. Mike.

(01:15):
Any idea is a good idea.Well, hey, i'll tell you what,
man, we might we might needhim because waters are getting choppy,
We're we're getting close, rumors areheating up. And yeah, and which
is the best part the man?I mean, I did an entire week
on the air this week, andevery single time we discussed it, or

(01:37):
every rumor did we discussed every everysingle room, Michael Pennox's draft value kept
going up. I mean I gotto, uh, not to date us
since we're doing this podcast, butI got to Wednesday and I had Michael
Pennix from one expert in the topthree, and then the very next day,
just when you think, you know, uh you figured something out,

(02:00):
I have somebody on that says,yeah, I think second round. So
but that's the beauty of it.I mean, we truly don't know,
and it gives us this opportunity asdegenerates, to spend a month trying to
figure out what we think is factand what we think is fiction, and
you know, trying to find thegold nuggets through all of that silt that

(02:21):
we dig up from the riverbed.That's what this draft process is all about.
Yeah, exactly, And that's whywe obsess about it for two months
leading up and you just get weget more and more information or misinformation layered
on top of what we already have. And you know, these days everyone
is connected. Right Like when Ifirst started really paying attention to the NFL

(02:44):
Draft on a high school call ittwenty something years ago. You know,
you've got mel Kiper and it's like, well, this is what mel Kiper
says or what John Clayton says,and that was the news. But now
yeah, you know, players havetheir own podcasts and GM's are going on
podcasts, and you know, there'stwelve thousand credential media members or whatever at
the combine that are each you know, saying their thing. And you got

(03:06):
players and teams with their Twitter accountsand all that stuff, and so there's
so much more to chew on andand it's it's really the fun part of
it. And you know you mentionedMichael Pennox. That's one of the things
we're going to talk about today isjust how crazy his stock has been,
even in the last week since lasttime you and I talked. But before
we get into it, I dowant to remind everyone listening that Whitewater Drafted

(03:29):
is proud to be sponsored by SeattleCigar Concierge and Balveny Single Malt Scotch Whiskey,
two of my favorite companies out there. Extremely happy to have both of
you guys on board for this.You know, Chuck, before you get
into penix, though, I dowant to say, because we have to
tip our cap to the man melKiper Junior and you both are probably too
young to even realize this, butwhen he got this thing started, I

(03:53):
mean, this is this shows youthat you've got draft nick nature and your
blood. When he got this wholething started and he gets the credit for
it, you're like. Everybody's reactionto it nationally football people was who is
this fool and why does his opinionmatter? But me, my reaction as
a kid was, oh my gosh, this draft thing is the coolest thing

(04:17):
ever. I can't wait to learnmore. Mel Kiper's awesome And now it's
a full time job for him,paying millions of dollars a year to him,
and mark my word, someday hewill be in the Pro Football Hall
of Fame. Melchiper Junior will bein the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
I just had to mention that duringone Whitewater Drafting episode tip of the cap.

(04:41):
I don't think he's the best atit anymore, but he was the
man that got the hype in thehysterias started, So kudos to Mel.
I can't say good enough things aboutthe guy. Yeah, no questions the
Bob Coussey of the NFL Draft.No for real though, Like, I'm
glad you did, because it's easyto just keep moving forward without acknowledging how

(05:06):
this draft mania came to be.And you're right, Mel Kiper deserves all
the flowers for that because it hasbecome a massive cottage industry billions of dollars.
I mean, you've got stuff thatcomes out of draft coverage that moves
Vegas lines right, and millions ofdollars follow in sports bets based on new

(05:27):
reports and all of that stuff.So I'm glad to thousands of people show
up at the event now, whichthey bounce around from city to city to
give them a chance to host itso cool, and they treat it like
a rock concert to watch twenty oneyear old football players walk on a stage
and hug a redhead. I meanthat's and yet hundreds of thousands of people

(05:51):
are showing up to witness this.I mean, first of all, that
just shows you how big football is. It shows you how big colle and
pro football are. And this isnot only like Christmas, which I compare
it to a lot because of thebuild up. It's also like the best
wedding you've ever been to because peopleon both sides of the aisle meet up,

(06:12):
and this is where college football andthe NFL converge. So this it's
just it's mind blowing what it's become. And I'll tell anybody that'll listen,
it's the most single most talked aboutsporting event in America and the calendar year.
Ye, considering how much time wespend evaluating this process, but we've

(06:32):
now here in the month of April. Now we reach the pinnacle, and
now this is where you think aboutit every day and talk about it every
day. Yeah. Absolutely, AndI think that this is the time where
you can really start to put morestock into what you hear. The play
clock is winding down, you know, there's only so much more motion you
can run. But it's funny.You know, you talked about the draft
as a live event, and I'mhappy you brought it up because I remember,

(06:56):
you know, my niece when she'snine now, so maybe around the
time she was five or six,you know, she'd be watching YouTube on
her mom's laptop or tablet, andthe videos that she loved. I couldn't
believe it. I was like,this is the dumbest thing in the world.
But she would watch kids open toyslike that's that's what it was.
There would be a kid and whateverthe new toys were that came out,

(07:19):
new bratstall or whatever, they wouldopen it and it was the unboxing that
she loved. I mean, andthey're getting millions of views on these videos.
And then I was like, holy, that's just the NFL Draft.
That's all worried about. We're gatheringaround to watch our team unwrapped, you
know, the new present. That'swhy I stopped short of saying, come
on, you got to find somekind of better activity, because then I

(07:41):
have to have to look in themirror. That's right. We don't want
to do that nine year old.Let's go. You got better things to
do, get outside and play.Nope, uh, I'm gonna watch you
unwrap this gift right now, becauseI do every April. Well, and
you know, I'll tell you what, man, the draft is one part
of the present opening process, butthe offseason is full of them. And

(08:01):
one of the things you and Italked about in our first episode was how
quick fans are to grade a team'soffseason as early as the first wave of
free agency. And that's something thatwe both pushed back on a bit back
then. I said, there werestill so many more moves coming and it's
best to reserve judgment. But thetrade that went down this week surprised even

(08:22):
me. You had the Houston Texanswho surprised everybody last year. I mean
when they traded this year's first tothe Cardinals and last year's draft, we
were like, Cardinals are gonna havetwo of the top three picks in the
NFL draft. In twenty twenty four, Texans go out win the division,
win a playoff game, and thentraded for All Pro Stafon Diggs, wide

(08:45):
receiver from Buffalo. They gave upa second round pick next year from the
Vikings that they got in their earliertrade this offseason, and they received Stefan
Diggs, a fifth and a sixth. Chuck, talk to me, you
were on the air win this broke. What was the initial reaction, Well,
well, the initial reaction is that'sall you got. That was like

(09:07):
the initial reaction. That's all StefanDiggs is worth is a second round pick
and you had to throw in somedraft capital as well. But the more
you think about or at least themore I think about it, and the
more I step back from it,I think what's very clear here is that
the Buffalo Bills had a Stefan Diggsissue. They felt that it was affecting

(09:30):
their true face of the franchise,Josh Allen. There is a distrust in
today's game of guys who seemed tobe even slightly on decline at the age
of thirty. Stefan Diggs has notat a one hundred yard receiving game since
Week six of the regular season,So that's a player that undoubtedly is in

(09:52):
decline. But I still think he'sin a window to be a Pro Bowl
caliber wide receiver, which he wasand can benefit from. But from the
Buffalo perspective, which had everybody shakingtheir heads or scratching their heads or whatever
you wanted to do to your headat that given moment, I think it's

(10:13):
pretty clear that, hey, ifwe wait another year, that's another year's
worth of damage that somebody with somediva traits could bring to the organization could
bring to Josh. I remember whenMinnesota got rid of him and people thought
it was a mistake and they immediatelyreplaced him with this guy named Justin Jefferson,

(10:33):
who ended up being a pretty goodpick, like right out of the
shoot right, maybe even improved theposition from the jump. I don't think
Buffalo's got a chance to do thatbecause of where they pick in the draft,
but just starting from the Buffalo perspective, even though like on the surface,
it feels like Stefan Diggs should beworth more than that. They got
rid of a contract of a guythat they were for more years of Stefan

(10:58):
Diggs. Obviously there was an issue. Otherwise, you don't take a thirty
one million dollars cap hit as wellin order to make the trade. And
I think that that was just themrealizing this is not a part of our
future. Let's find the pieces thatare and let's build around Josh Allen and
if he's as great as they thinkhe is, and a lot of us

(11:18):
think that he is. I mean, Brett fav Los Sterling sharp and didn't
miss a beat. He was justas good, maybe better. Afterwards,
everybody thought that Mark Cooper and MarkClayton were the secret to Dan Marino's success.
No, they were terrible without DanMarino, and he just kept putting
up five thousand yard seasons. Soif he's as great as they think he

(11:39):
is, they'll find some weapons toput around him. I think that this
was cutting our losses on Stefan Diggs, and so it actually believe it or
not Jackson, Now that I've kindof run through the entire process, I
think it does make sense for Buffalo. But there's the Houston side as well.
Well, yeah, let's stick withBuffalo here for just a second,

(12:00):
because for the last four years,the AFC has kind of been at the
beginning of the season, you're looking, all right, who's most likely to
come out of this conference. It'sbeen a three sometimes fourteen conversation. You
know, the Chiefs, the Bengals, the Ravens in and out, and
then the Bills were just locked in. This is gonna be one of the
three best teams in the conference,and they have been consistently have been that

(12:24):
the last four years. Even ifthey take a wide receiver in the first
round. To say it's Brian Thomasor Xavier Worthy or at Ni Mitchell,
someone along those lines. Does thistake the Bills out of the top three,
top four echelon the AFC for you? You know what's funny about that
is I'm gonna say no. AndI think the initial reaction is yes,

(12:46):
But again, more you think aboutit, I'm gonna go ahead and say
no to that, because I mean, even Vegas, unless I heard misinformation
today Vegas, the line in Vegasdid not change for the Buffalo Bill's future.
The over under didn't change. Youknow. Maybe maybe maybe I was
listening to the wrong person, MaybeI haven't done enough research on this,

(13:07):
but from what I was hearing,the line didn't change on their over under.
Their chances of winning the AFC Eastdidn't really get adjusted. And and
I think that that might speak tosort of this understanding that Stefan Diggs is
very good, maybe even touched upongreatness, but maybe he's not there anymore.

(13:33):
So do I put him on thetop line anymore like I have the
last few seasons. You know,maybe I don't think that they're the biggest
threat to the Kansas City Chiefs dynastythis upcoming season, but I don't know
if I would have put them therewith Diggs. So I'm gonna say I
like them as much as I wouldprior to this trade. And I know
that sounds strange you lose a playerlike that, but I do. I

(13:56):
do sort of think that he wasa little bit decline and I think if
they're smart, they can find waysto replace him. Well. Yeah,
speaking to the odds, I justpulled up the most recent ones and as
of right now, they are tiedfor the third best odds to win the
Super Bowl among AFC teams. Yougot the Chiefs certain first, Ravens are

(14:16):
next, and then they are tiedwith the Texans and the Bengals at plus
fourteen. Sounds like Detexans may havecome up, because Texans definitely came up.
Yes, but the Bills didn't godown, at least they didn't go
down that much in the eyes ofthe futures. Yeah. Well, and
the biggest line mover where was CJ. Stroud's MVP odds Because this is a
guy that was getting talk as arookie and now he's got that year under

(14:41):
his belt. And even if StefanDiggs is not all caps, Steffan Diggs
anymore. I mean he could bethe third option in that passing offense.
You know. That's that's how goodthey are. So yeah, I think
we see more movement from the Texansthan we do with the Bills. And
just to put a cap on theBill side of things, you know,
yes, Stefan Diggs production absolutely crateredsecond half of the season. It coincided

(15:05):
with their switch and offensive coordinator fromKen Dorsey to Joe Brady. And the
thing with Joe Brady is he doesn'tdraw up plays for specific players. There's
no we need to make sure ourbest player gets the ball in his hands
x amount of times. When hewas offensive coordinator at Carolina, Dj Moore
was third in receptions on that teambehind oh my gosh, I can't even

(15:26):
remember who the Jabronis were that hadmore catches than him that year. And
so that's what you saw was StefanDiggs. The Bills kept winning game and
I don't think Terras Marshall was thereyet, but I think le Viscus chanlt
one other player. So yeah,somebody somebody is screaming at their phone right
now with the name of the guyI'm I'm forgetting. But uh, you

(15:50):
know, that's that's Joe Brady's thing. Here's the deal. The Bills kept
winning games after the switch. Ithink they lost one regular season game with
that switch. So well, Ithink a lot of you know, it
doesn't take much, it seems toget Digs agitated, and the fact that
he went from eighty five receiving yardsa game to forty seven with that switch

(16:11):
was enough to agitate him. ButI don't think it hurt the Bills overall.
And I don't think this trade hurtsthem that much because they likely will
draft a highly thought of rookie widereceiver. A lot of talk about them
looking to trade up now, youknow, I think they could even trade

(16:32):
for another wide receiver. Think aboutif you added a Ayuk and LL Giggams,
and well, Higgins is already makinghis big money, Ayuk's not quite
there. If for the year,while you're eating the dead cap money from
Diggs, you bring in Ayuk andthen slap franchise tag on him if you
have to after the season's over,or you work out a long term deal.

(16:52):
I think Brandon Ayuk as a numberone receiver with Josh Allen could be
to put up some scary numbers.Yeah, get him out of the division,
man, Yeah, to get himout of the division. Yeah,
but yeah, I do wonder ifthat's something that Buffalo entertains that will you
know we're in it. If wethink we're in a championship window, We'll
sacrifice some draft capital. We've gotto fix our cap space going forward because

(17:17):
it was a mess. Think aboutall the guys that they had to cut
this year, Morse Employer and allof those That's right, So we we
what if we could add an Ayuk, sacrifice some draft capital, and get
a number one wide receiver on areally small contract that we can work on
him being Josh Allen's go to guyfor the future. I think that maybe
a creative way to not fall offat that position. Well. I think

(17:40):
there's a tremendous amount of skill setoverlap with Diggs and Ayuk too. Ayuk
actually that's my favorite comp four brand. Nayuk is uh late stage Minnesota Viking
Stefan Diggs. Someone just wins atevery level. Incredible. I mean,
the thing about Ayuk is his releasegame is insane. It's like watching an
and one mixtape. The guy's abilityto separate from coverage within the first two

(18:00):
steps of his route is unbelievable.So yeah, it's a lot of physicality,
a lot of options for Buffalo fromthe Texan side. Do you like
this move philosophically? Yes, AndI know everything I just said about Buffalo
where I say it makes sense,But it also makes sense from the Houston
perspective. You got an up andcoming quarterback. You're going to get Stefan

(18:22):
Diggs in his best attitude that he'sgoing to have. So he's going to
a new team for the first timein ten years, I'm not going to
play in frigid cold weather. Iget to go down to Houston. I
get to be the veteran in thegroup that probably could use it. Tank
Dell Nicocollins could use an experienced,you know, stat compiler like Stefan Diggs

(18:42):
to show him the ropes because he'sa very good, very accomplished receiver.
It might be the perfect ingredient forthem, and they're going to get him
with the best attitude possible. Soto me, even though I don't think
Buffalo falls off that much from losinghim, I do think Houston benefits considerably

(19:03):
from having him. And look,I mean he got tired of Minnesota and
he got tired of Buffalo, andhe'll get tired of Houston eventually too.
But you get him in the firstcouple of years, and I think that's
all you're really looking for, andthen you can let him go and not
really suffer too much of a financialblow because Buffalo's already taken that on by
moving him, and so you getthe opportunity to just add him to an

(19:26):
up and coming team and he couldbe a really nice I don't know if
it's a finishing piece, but areally nice piece to put them in that
equation of one of the best teamsin the AFC. Well, they chop
the last three years off that contracttoo, so he'll be a free agent
after this season. Well, theycompletely chopped it off. I'm curious about.
My understanding was that team it's teamoptions up to three more years after

(19:52):
this that Houston is in position toessentially activate each next year of the contract
or let him g free agency.Yeah, I mean they take the dead
cap, So Buffalo took off theplate that they can't get out of it
without a cap hit, which anothergreat benefit for Houston as I understand it,
and you might be right, Mike, but I think it by them

(20:12):
taking the cap hit Buffalo, thenthat frees them to either keep him or
just decide, well, since wedon't have a cap hit, we can
cut him without any consequence. Yeah, no, I think I think it
puts them in a ground Maybe not. Yeah, obviously I didn't go,
you know, Joel Corey on StefonDiggs this week, but so maybe maybe

(20:36):
Mike's right, But either way itdoesn't really matter. Jackson. I think
it's a really nice improvement to theHouston Texans right now. Well, and
one of the things that I thinkif you're gonna do the young quarterback,
everyone's saying, oh, get theyoung quarterback at the quarterback on the rookie
contract. Well, that's that's great. You you want that player to be
able to elevate the franchise. Who'veseen CJ. Stroud show the ability to
do that. But you also youcan't just say, all right, quarterback,

(21:00):
fix our team. You got toput them in a position to really
do that. And they have donethat. They struck gold with a couple
of late picks. Well, TankDell's third rounder Nico Collins was a late
pick. I don't remember exactly whereabout a Day three pick, and those
guys have turned into monsters early onin their careers. But you know,

(21:21):
it's interesting we're starting to see someof these teams do this. And now
two franchises who seem poised to reallyflip their fortunes in a very short period
of time. Have the Carolina Panthersto thank for this. You've got the
Chicago Bears and the Houston Texans.Their rebuilds are in hyperdrive because of the
lack of a better word and competenceof the Carolina Panthers taking Bryce Young,

(21:44):
which allowed the Texans to get CJ. Stroud and then of course trading what
became the number one overall pick andtheir best offensive player in DJ Moore to
the Bears for the right to draftBryce Young. So you've got that going.
But also you're seeing it in Tennessee. You know, if Will Levis
is going to be the guy,you're not going to find that out with
him throwing to Nick Westbrook a kine. So you bring in DeAndre Hopkins and

(22:07):
now they went out and they paida ton of money for Calvin Ridley.
You know, these are teams thatare I appreciate it. You know,
the Bears are building this unbelievable landingspot for presumably Caleb Williams by having DJ
Moore and bringing in DeAndre Swift andthen trading for Keenan Allen. I mean
that to me is how you doit? You know, and you brought

(22:30):
up Tennessee. I just had thisthought today. Everybody in the draft has
them taken the tackle Alt at numberseven, That'll be the first tackle off
the board. I mean, keepin mind who they hired, and that
is Brian Callahan, who was theoffensive coordinator with the Cincinnati Bengals. What
did the Bengals do when they hadthe opportunity in the draft already with t

(22:53):
Higgins in the fold, maybe theirnumber one receiver of the future. Did
they take the tackle to protect protectJoe Burrow or did they go for the
stud wide receiver to add to JoeBurrow's weapons. So everybody right now is
mocking Joe Alt to Tennessee. Don'tsleep on roma doonsday to Tennessee. I'm

(23:14):
saying, man for that equation.No, I love this. Actually wouldn't
mind playing this out a little bitbecause I think Harbaugh is going to take
the first offensive tackle. If hedoesn't trade out of five, I think
that he's going to trade out.I think that's the most likely thing.
So yeah, I mean, Tennesseeis a major lynchpin in this draft.
And you know, I mean circlingback to the actual draft, you know,

(23:38):
the pre draft QB landscape continues toshift. The consensus opinion is settling
around there being four quarterbacks going inthe top five picks, maybe the top
four picks. But behind them thereis one quarterback that is getting steamed up
like crazy since this Pro day.In fact, just this morning, Ian
Rappaport referred to Michael Pennix Junior asa pretty likely first round pick and then

(24:02):
immediately followed that up by saying hewas likely to go in the top fifteen.
Rapaport, of course incredibly connected andplugged in with NFL decision makers.
Chuck, how likely do you thinkit is that Penix gets taken in the
top half of the first round.Well, you know, I love doing
this draft stuff. I'm just Iam. I consider myself a student of

(24:23):
it. I try to absorb information. I try to I feel like I've
gained some wisdom over the years tryingto read the Tea leaves and even evaluating
talent. But I certainly am noton Whitewater Drafting or on KJR to try
to come off as you know,a future GM of the National Football League.
There's certainly stuff that I don't seeand I don't know. But you're

(24:45):
talking to someone about Penix. Ithink our first episode was about me saying
why is there such a gap betweenhim and Jade and Daniels? And we
spent a considerable amount of time onthat. So if you're talking about is
has Penis been underval in this process, well, you're preaching to the choir
at Michael Pennock Junior Church, becausethat, to me, has should have

(25:08):
been the case from the outset.I haven't ever confused him, compared him
to Caleb Williams, have never madean argument for him being the number one
pick or even the number two pick. But the idea, this is where
I will stand firm on it.The idea that so many quarterback needs exist
in the top fourteen picks in thisdraft, and I'll even kind of short

(25:30):
at thirteen. The idea that theRaiders with their quarterback situation aren't emerging from
this with Michael Pennix junior or aquarterback, one of these six quarterbacks that
are universally seen now finally as firstround values. I've just never felt,

(25:51):
even when the people were saying he'sa mid second rounder, I've just never
felt he was going to get pastthe Raiders at thirteen. So I feel
like maybe I was a little bitahead of the trend on this one.
Yeah, you know, And it'sit is so so funny with what you're
talking about. You know, yousaid you spoke with someone or saw someone
predict Penix going in the top threeoverall someone else in the second round.

(26:14):
I was I was talking with someonewho's incredibly well connected who was saying that
when he was at the combine.He was talking with someone who was speaking
with resolution that Penix was going togo in the fourth round. And so
it just speaks to how big ofa gap there is. But it's also
it only takes one and there isso much pressure on these teams now to

(26:37):
get the quarterback. If you don'thave the guy, you have to go
get the guy or else your fansdon't take you seriously. And I mean,
look at it in Seattle. Seattlehas a pretty good quarterback and there's
still a very vocal, large contingentof fans who are like, you got
to get somebody better. So whenyou're the Raiders and you've got Aidan O'Connell
and Gardon Minshew, that's that's notgoing to work, especial if you only

(27:00):
got a year or two left ofDevonte Adams's your best player. So yeah,
I think that thirteen is the lowestPenix goes, which is crazy because
I think that there was a lotof hope with some of these teams that
Okay, we can go for anotherplayer, another position to need in the
first round, and then we'll useour second round pick on Michael Pennix or
a bow Nix. But I don'tthink that's going to be the case anymore,

(27:22):
and I'm not sure bow Knicks makesit past Denver. I'm with you.
This is the way I've felt theentire time. I've had the Raiders
trading up to get Pennix and bowKnicks going to the Denver Broncos at number
twelve. I mean, that's youknow, I put a mock together at
the beginning of the process, certainlyopen to changing it at any time,
but I've felt that way the entiretime, and so I certainly feel more

(27:45):
resolute now that we're getting more ofthis information, now that Greg Cosell's telling
us that his top three quarterbacks Pennixand Nicks and Caleb Williams. And Greg
Cosell knows a thing about football.He's very good at evaluating stuf. So
does Hugh Millan, our own HughMillan over there at KJAR. I don't
know if there's many people who's evaluationof quarterbacks I trust more. And he's

(28:07):
comparing them on our airwaves to TroyAikman, for goodness sake. Wow,
And that speaks I'm talking about MichaelPennix. That speaks to the criticism of
well, you know, when youflush him out of the pocket, he's
not all that accurate of a quarterback. Well, there are some guys that
just are so mechanical, and Ithink Michael Pennix kind of rates in this.

(28:30):
This is somebody that doesn't run alot, even though he's next to
Caleb Williams might be the best athleteof the of all the quarterbacks, and
yet he doesn't run that much.He runs when he has to run,
and I think that's just the wayhe wants to do things, but he
could. But Hughes comparing him toTroy Aikman, for goodness sake, Jackson,
and that's a Hall of Famer thatwon three Super Bowls, and he's

(28:51):
comparing him because that's the way Apemanwas. He was so mechanical, he
was perfect in the pocket, andhe had demanded perfection from everybody else,
and if ever everybody was perfect,he would be perfect. And that's an
accuracy. I mean, eight men, the famous stories of the ball never
hit the ground in practice, butyou flush him out of the pocket,
and Troy Aikman became average to belowaverage pretty fast as a quarterback. So

(29:17):
the knocks against Pennix, you know, and his inaccuracy when he's taken outside
of the play. Okay, thereare some people that are great at that,
John Elway, Patrick Mahomes, maybeCaleb Williams is great at that.
But there have been a lot ofquarterbacks that have succeeded in the pocket and
might not have been that great winflushed from the pocket, including the greatest

(29:37):
of all time. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean,
so neither Tom Brady or Peyton Manningwere winning games outside of the pocket.
Yeah, so sure, list itas a concern, list it as a
weakness if you want. But we'vegot way too many examples. You just
brought up maybe the two best onesof guys that, hey, you run
your route, you block that guy, and I will complete the pass and

(30:00):
I will move us down the fieldfor a touchdown. So I don't I've
never understood why people haven't liked him, especially when the medicals came back looking
better. And I do expect himto go, not just in the top
thirteen. I think when this processis over, somebody's moving up to get
Michael Pennox in the top ten.Well, and you know, speaking of

(30:22):
a team that's in the top ten, I think we've got a perfect microcosm
of the value of a really goodpocket quarterback because the Atlanta Falcons could have
stayed at number eight and taken aMichael Pennix or moved up for a JJ
McCarthy or a Drake may or awhomever. But they went out and paid
forty million dollars a year for KirkCousins, who is not going to beat

(30:42):
anybody outside of the pocket, butlike Michael Pennix, can stand in and
deliver the ball with anticipation and precisionat all three levels. I think that
is the highlight of Michael Pennox's profileas a quarterback. And you know,
run when it's smart to run,like Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes runs when

(31:03):
it's smart to run. That's right, that's right. And the thing is
and Penix showed out athletically at hispro day. You know, ran a
four or five john almost thirty seveninches. I mean these are really athletic
numbers, at nine point seven onthe relative athletic scale, meaning he was
a top three athlete ever at theposition when it comes to the different combine
and pro day drills that they do. So yeah, he's not short on

(31:25):
athleticism. He's got gigantic hands,he's tall enough, he's heavy enough.
He checks all those boxes. Theage of the injury leader tree, I
get it ten out of ten leadershipexactly. And I'm going to mention a
name here and we mentioned him earlier, and I want to encourage people who
are listening or if Mike ends upchopping this into a clip that makes it
rounds on Twitter, don't hear whatI'm not saying when I make this comparison.

(31:49):
I am not making a prediction,but Michael Penix's profile, granted a
couple of years older, reminds meso much of c J. Stroud's.
Stroud was at Ohio State, greatoffensive line and a bevy of great receivers.
Same thing with Michael Pennix and CJ. Stroud put up a game against
Georgia in the National Championship Game thatis maybe until Pennix's game against Texas in

(32:15):
the College Football Playoff was the bestsingle game performance in high stakes I'd seen
from a college quarterback ever. Andc J. Stroud was viewed as an
immobile quarterback, a guy that canbeat you from the pocket. Sure,
but he's got great receivers in greatprotection. How's that going to go for
the at the NFL level? Andthat game he was darting around everywhere.

(32:37):
He had to show his athleticism becauseit was the first time that his offensive
line was getting whipped up front.And I think that with Pennix, that
is their for him. Now.Is he going to go in and b
CJ. Stroud and be a topfive MVP candidates a rookie. No,
I'm not predicting that. I'm sayingstylistically and from a college profile draft profile
perspective. I think there's a lotof similarities there. Yeah, I think

(32:59):
it's pretty good. And I loveCJ. Stroud. Last year, that's
the guy I thought should have gonenumber one. I got plenty of documentation
on that, and I was wantingthe Seahawks to move up when the year
they had the draft capital, theexcess draft capital, and to get him,
and they didn't do that. SoI don't like Michael Pennis quite as
much. I think maybe age hasa little bit to do with it.

(33:21):
But I think that's a pretty decentcomparison. And just speaking to something that
you said earlier, just off thecuff. Until you have that quarterback of
now and into the future, there'snothing more important as an organization. You
have to find that guy. Soeven the Seahawks, you know, I
expect them to trade down from sixteenand a crew more draft capital. But

(33:46):
if they saw if Michael Pennox happenedto fall to sixteen, and they saw
an opportunity to upgrade their quarterback room, maybe not for this year, but
for the future, I mean,that's something I think that they absolutely have
to consider. And I and forall of those Husky slash Seahawk fans that
want this to happen. If,by chance, if by miracle, that

(34:07):
he was sitting on the board forthe Seahawks at sixteen and they decided not
to take him, and I'm goingto categorize that him as a mistake because,
yes, I understand you have otherneeds, but until you've identified not
just your quarterback for now, butthe guy that's going to be your organizational
quarterback for the future, then you'vegot work to do to shore that up.

(34:29):
So yeah, long story short all. I think that he's been undervalued
this entire time, and it feelslike, finally, Jackson, that he
is being mentioned where he needs tobe mentioned in this draft process. Yeah.
Man, it's going to be fascinaI don't anticipate it happening, but
it will be fascinating. If theSeahawks are on the clock and Michael Pennix

(34:52):
is still on the board one,I think that's going to elevate the value
of the sixteenth pick, and maybethe trade back opportunity has become just too
rich to ignore. But I wouldbe at peace with Pennix at sixteen really
quickly after the pick if it wereto go that way. I don't think
it's going to be an option,and I wouldn't trade up for him if
I was Seattle. Right now,I think think they can. That's exactly

(35:14):
it. I mean, now you'redipping into future draft classes in order to
do it, and I'm not sureI'm ready to do that, but I
mean, yeah, it's going tobe really, really fascinating. We'll talk
a little bit more in a secondabout what we think Seattle will do at
sixteen, what we want them todo at sixteen. But last week,
you know, we looked at oneof the real strengths of this draft class
with the offensive line, and todaywe're going to stay in the trenches with

(35:35):
folks on another area of need forSeattle, and that's the defensive line.
This is a year where the topguys up front are likely to be pushed
down further than normal, given thestrength and the depth at the top of
the QB class, the wide receiverclass, the offensive tackle class. To
me, this feels like like normallyyou're seeing the top two pass rushers in
a given draft go in the topten, and I don't think that's going

(35:58):
to happen this year. We mightsee one in the time. Maybe,
But I think picks eleven through twentyfive is where we're going to see a
lot of lottery talent, lottery qualitytalent at defensive line go later than they
normally would. Yeah. I agreewith that entirely, And that's going to
be an that's going to be anotherinteresting decision for John if he's got and

(36:22):
this is a potential to happen sixteenthpick overall in the draft. There's a
chance here that we're talking about sixquarterbacks being taken before that, four receivers,
a tight end, three or fourtackles. I mean there's a chance
that I think, look, Ithink a defensive player or two will come

(36:44):
off the board before sixteen, butprobably no more than two. When when's
the last time that the team ofthe sixteenth pick had a shot at the
third best defensive player in the draft? Well? Probably never. Yeah,
And then take that a step further, just because he's the third defensive player
off the board, there's a chancethat's John Schneider's favorite defensive player in the

(37:06):
entire draft, absolutely at number sixteen. But I don't think there's a clear
cut consensus. This is the firstguy type of thing. Is not a
will Anderson or a Jalen Carter inthis draft class. Maybe secretly, John
Schneider, you know, is youknow, he's got a poster of Jared
Verse on his wall, and everyyou know, every night, he walks

(37:27):
into his office, turns off thelights, pours himself a glass of you
know, Poor's a bath. Yeah, yeah, Poor's a bath, puts
some sprinkles, some flower pedals inthere, you know, puts on a
little Marvin Gay and just dreams ofJared Verse being a Sea Hawk. And
then all of a sudden, herehe is on the board at sixteen.

(37:49):
He was planning on trading down theentire time, but he has to share
with Mike McDonald in a really embarrassingmoment. This is the guy that I
bathed to. Yes, I haveto take him, I know, I
told, But I wasn't expecting himto be here, you know. I
mean, there's a chance that hisdefensive player, his favorite defensive player in
the draft, is going to beon the board at sixteen because the expectation

(38:12):
that offense, and particularly the offenseon the edge, is going to be
so dominant in the first fifteen picks. Yeah, yeah, Well, let's
let's talk about who some of theseguys are. You mentioned Jared Verse,
And for the sake of this episodeand trying to create a little bit of
delineation, you know, linebacker slashedge is a little bit of a fungible
position, depends on what sort ofdefense you're running. We're going to try

(38:37):
and include edges in here, butthere's a couple of players that are,
you know, maybe considered edge rushinglinebackers that we'll talk about, you know,
when we get to the linebacker group, but for the sake of this
conversation, also defensive tackles that areconsidered defensive ends. That's exactly right,
especially if you're running a tight threefour. So yeah, you know we're

(38:57):
going to exactly exactly. So,so let's talk about some of these guys
that I think are going to mostlikely to get drafted in the first round
and early in day two. You'vegot Jared Verse from Florida State, who
you mentioned, Dallas Turner who Ithink right now. You know, if
you go to grinding themox dot com, where they take all the hundreds of
mock drafts that are being done bypeople in the industry and then they compile

(39:19):
them and give you an aggregate.Here's here's where players are going out of
the last five hundred mock drafts.Dallas Turner is the first defensive player off
the board. He's from Alabama.You've also got Liatu Latu out of UCLA,
a guy that I'm extremely fond of, extremely fond of this guy.
You got jor John Newton out ofIllinois. Byron Murphy out of Texas,

(39:42):
another guy I really like. Histeammate, Tovandre Sweat, gigantic dude,
almost three hundred and seventy pounds.You got Chris Jenkins from Michigan, who
fans got way too familiar with duringthe National title game. And then Bradlen
Trice out of Washington, who wasa total game wrecker, probably the best
player on the Huskies defense. Whoreally stands out to you out of this

(40:04):
group? You know, I thinkthis conversation starts when it talks about the
Seahawks because we run it through theSeahawks filter, and certainly they should be
in the market for a defensive lineman. And and because of the versatility of
today's players and the different scheme looksthat almost every organization tries to look.

(40:24):
I don't know if anybody's off yourboard from a positional standpoint, But I'm
very curious. I mean, wegot to know John and Pete and the
kind of player they liked to draft, right. I mean, every year
when we got to the cornerbacks,they had to be a certain height,
they had to have arms of acertain length. I mean, we knew

(40:45):
that was part of the draft processfor Pete and John. We also knew
that when they lost Michael Bennett theymissed him so much they spent every year
trying to replace him. Rashiem Greenand Jay Collier and Oh. They had
to find a guy that they couldslide to three technique but would be better

(41:07):
as a five and you could evenput him out on the edge if you
had to. But then they realized, man, this is kind of a
fruitless venture. Michael Bennett was alot better than maybe we even realized because
they never did find him. Theynever even found that guy. But the
point is they're they're very doppel gangerish, John and Pete. They were

(41:29):
always trying to find body types andphysical types that matched the great guys.
I mean, even Jordan Brooks wasthe doppelganger of Bobby Wagner. Oh,
that's the way he was missing imageas yeah, as a prospect, I
mean the fitting image. He hadthe same linebackers coaching college that Bobby Wagner
had. I mean, this iswhat they've done for years. The most

(41:52):
fascinating aspect of this and we're notgoing to be able to tell until Draft
day is the three days of drafts, uh, is how Michael McDonald's going
to hit, How he's going toaffect all of this. And because he
runs a different scheme obviously, andit's right now the hottest defensive scheme in

(42:13):
the National Football League. He hassaid recently, I want everybody on my
defense with the ability to rush thepasser. I know, safety knows tackle.
I don't care. Everybody has theability to rush the passer. So
when I start to evaluate the process, I mean, for example, Byron
Murphy might be my favorite defensive playerin this draft. I mean, to

(42:36):
me, there's and I'm not goingto say he's not Aaron Donald, because
there's just only one Aaron Donald.But tell me Jackson that there's not some
Aaron Donald qualities. He's about theexact same size, he's twitchy as hell,
I mean, a defensive tackle andknows tackle that's twitchy. I mean,
are you kidding me? I meanthat used to be something we described
cornerbacks and wide receivers as being twitchy. He's a twitchy defensive tackle. He's

(43:00):
lean, he's thick, he's apenetrator, he's explosive. But does he
fit this scheme? Does he fitwhat Mike McDonald is looking for? Because
he'd have to play three to fourin this system. He's not going to
be a nose tackle and a truethree to four that's for sure. Maybe
his teammate to Andre Sweat's gonna bethat, but he's not. So does

(43:22):
he even fit the scheme for whatthe Seahawks Because they have Leonard Williams and
they have Draymond Jones. That's alot of money tied up in guys that
really do seem to fit the schemeas far as I'm concerned. So I
don't know. I mean, eventhough he's my favorite defensive player in the
entire draft, I'm not sure thatMike McDonald's going to want a four to

(43:45):
three defensive tackle in Byron Murphy.Yeah, and that that's gonna be really
interesting too, right, Like we'regonna have to learn who fits with Mike
McDonald and luck he can't get anyworse. You know, once the NFL
sort of figured out the defense thatPete Carroll revolutionized the NFL with, he

(44:07):
spent five years trying to refigure itout and it never happened. And so
you know, Mike McDonald is ontop of He is the defensive scheme lord
in the NFL right now. He'sthe Sean McVay of defense. And so
yeah, we're gonna have to figureout what ingredients he wants to cook with.
I just as as a player,I'm with you. Byron Murphy is

(44:28):
way near the top of my list. He's a bit slight, he's under
three hundred pounds, but man,you use the perfect word to describe him.
He is so twitchy. He's thekind of guy that increases your team's
blocking sled budget because he's gonna hitso hard, so fast. His ability
to get his chest into and underthe chest of the guy blocking him in

(44:52):
that first step is so incredible,and you see a lot of times the
defensive lineman it is a lot ofhand fighting. And this is where I
would can trast him with a lottoo. From UCLA, who's probably My
next favorite defensive lineman is a lottwo wins with his hands. He's it's
like watching a karate fighter where he'sgot every club in his golf bag in

(45:15):
terms of moves to win, whereasByron Murphy is just going to get lower
and into you faster than most guyscan block. And so that to me
is really attractive because pressure up themiddle, even though it's less likely to
translate into a sack or a tacklefor loss, pressure up the middle does
more to disrupt what the offense wantsto do than pressure around the edge does,

(45:37):
and Murphy to me, is thebest interior pressure guy in this draft.
Johnny Newton is kind of in thesame mold. Also from the great
state of Illinois. And we allknow how many great people are from the
great state of Illinois. Abraham Lincoln. Me, Abraham Lincoln. Yeah,
man, I think you covered Imentioned Abraham Lincoln. Yeah, I think.

(46:00):
Anyway, obviously it's a very extensivelist of amazing people from the state
of Illinois. Yeven Witherspoon, Imean, I know he's not from Illinois,
but he played at Illinois. Sohere comes Johnny Newton, and look
he's I think on a lot ofboards considered, you know, right after
Murphy in terms of defensive tackles,very similar profiles. Newton's a pass rush

(46:23):
first defensive tackle. He's also builtthat way, that lean, twitchy kind
of body hit. Think about justgo back even fifteen years ago and think
of the body style of the defensivelinemen. Right, these are guys wearing
you know, size forty six fortyeight pans. Now, these guys got

(46:44):
thirty six inch ways, I mean, six packs. It's crazy. Well,
I mean, look at the nameChris Jenkins alone. Chris Jenkins one
of the best defensive tackles I've everseen in his prime from the Carolina Panthers,
and he was like three sixty five. And his son, who's in
this draft from Michigan is so evenpeople named Chris Jenkins look different, you

(47:09):
know, one generation later, butNewton Newton's got that very similar. Think
about how great Michigan was, Thinkabout how many great defensive players are in
this draft. Jackson from Michigan,and the defensive player in the year in
the Big Ten was Johnny Newton ofIllinois. I know, and so so,

(47:30):
but again, is it a schemefit? Because I think he's more
of your traditional like three technique fourto three defensive tackle, and that's not
the scheme that Mike McDonald's going torun. But those are the two guys,
uh, sort of at the atthe top of the list. And
as I mentioned before, is toand Andre Sweat, even though you wouldn't

(47:52):
dare consider a nose tackle at sixteenif you move back, is that somebody
that is disruptive enough. He's moreof your defensive he's more of your interior
guy that you think of the bigIce Glazer ol Woods can't move, Yeah,
and he's three hundred and sixty sixpounds, insane, and they're worried
that he's going to get bigger.But he can move. You can absolutely

(48:13):
move. So I don't know.I mean, you love Murphy, I
love Murphy, I love Newton.I don't know how you feel about Newton.
But well, maybe what's not tolove me? Maybe maybe Sweat is
the one that they've got circle justbecause he's a better scheme fit for what
the Seahawks are looking for and theydon't have to spend a first round pick
to get him. Well, andthat's and that's just it too, because

(48:34):
again, this is something that Iharp on in something that I know you
appreciate it as well. We havethese these decisions don't come in a vacuum.
There's opportunity cost For every player youpick. There are players that you
can't have because you made that pick. So with that in mind, if
you knew that the Seahawks were goingto draft a defensive lineman in the first
round, would you prefer based ontheir personnel and what we're anticipating for Mike

(48:59):
McDonald, would you prefer that beinginto your defensive lineman to go next to
Leonard Williams rotating with Jaron Reid?Or are you looking for someone on the
edge? Uh? Well, theiredges are? You know? Now we're
thinking about an outside linebacker at thispoint. All right, let let me

(49:20):
propose. Let's let's say let's sayall of these guys, let's say there's
no defensive players taken in the firstfifteen picks, and Seattle, for whatever
reason, can't find a trade downpartner. They're sticking and picking in sixteen.
Which of these defensive I mean,we haven't even talked about Dallas Turner
hardly put you you go Turner,and then you turn them into a stand
up three four edge. But thething is, I like what you've got.

(49:45):
I like Mafey. I think he'sgoing to have a breakthrough with McDonald
if he didn't have one already.And then Nuosu's you know, obviously they're
committed to him, and I likehim. So during call flash last year,
you can never have enough depth.I mean, anytime you can add

(50:05):
a pass rusher, you add apass rusher. So it feels to me
like the biggest need would be tofind somebody a little girthier than Jaron Reid
at nose tackle. And yet ifI've got the sixteenth pick and I'm committed
to adding something on my front seven, I'm getting an edge guy. I'm
getting another pass rusher. Yeah,and this comes back to the age old

(50:27):
question about drafting for need or bestplayer available. And look, man,
there's I just can't emphasize enough howmuch change happens, not only in the
offseason, but throughout a season.And no matter how deep you think you
are at a specific position, chancesare you're gonna need another guy. And
so yeah, I'm with you.If if Dallas Turner is there, just

(50:47):
take Dallas Turner and then figure itout. You know what I mean.
I still think they're going to tradedown too. I do think that's going
to be what they what they do. But we just never know. As
I mentioned that apple of your eyeand the draft, we don't know who
who's John's is, and we don'tknow who Michael McDonald's is going to be,
and we are going to see adifferent draft this year. I don't

(51:10):
think there's any question about it.I think Mike McDonald's probably gonna call out
John, like, why are youso insistent on finding a six foot three
inch cornerback with thirty three inch arms? Where's this coming from? Yeah?
He's like, well, you cantake Pete Carroll out of the building,
but you can't take him out ofme. So or maybe John's relieved that
he doesn't have to look for you. Maybe I think it's don't take us.

(51:30):
I think it's going to take usa couple of years to figure out
just how strong the decoupling was thereand how much there was a natural overlap
between John Schneider and Pete Carroll versusthem from here and saying, Okay,
we got to work together. Let'slet's figure out how to blend. And
I think that's going to be areally really fascinating the thing. And look

(51:52):
we transition in just for the lastthing from this episode is talking about what
we want Seattle to do at sixteen. We've focused on the defensive line here
for the last fifteen twenty minutes,but opening it back up to all positions
at sixteen. Of all the guysthat are there, I know when we
did this in our first episode,you were saying trade down. I think

(52:16):
just today Chad Forbes tweeted that theworst kept secret in the NFL is that
the Eagles packers and commanders are negotiatingwith Seattle for the sixteenth pick. He
called that the worst kept secret inthe NFL. Right now, it is
seeming more and more likely that Seattleis going to trade out, and as

(52:37):
positions that I think Seattle is lesslikely to target with the first round pick
keep getting pushed towards the top ofthis draft. It feels like there's going
to be more guys available in thelate teens and early twenties that still really
fit what Seattle wants to do availablethan I used to think there were.
So let me ask you this,Okay, you want them to trade down,

(53:00):
that's great. I am warming upto the idea more and more of
trading down. I'm into it.But that's a vacuous stot. Well,
sure, oh you just trade down? Okay, great, what are you
getting? Would you like to seethem? Let's just say those are the
three teams, the Eagles, thePackers, and the Commanders, and I'm

(53:22):
going to pull up who they've gotin terms of, you know, where
they'd be trading down to. Butis there one of those teams that really
stands out to you? Like,Yeah, that's the move I want to
make. Not only is there oneof those teams. If you remember,
back in the first episode, wesaid let's make our prediction now and we
can change it as we go.My prediction was with Washington, specifically because

(53:45):
they have two high second round picks, and so I'm sticking with that.
I haven't changed my opinion on thatwhatsoever. So if that's question on the
table, I'll stick with what myanswer has been the last couple of weeks,
and that's Washington. You trade completelyout of the first round, you
get two bites of the apple earlyin the second, and at that point

(54:06):
I will entertain things that I don'twant to entertain in the first round.
I don't want to entertain an insidelinebacker with the sixteenth pick in the draft.
I don't want to entertain a leftguard with the sixteenth pick in the
draft. But if I can geta left my favorite left guard and my
favorite inside linebacker with the two picksthat I get from the Commanders in the
second round for this you know tradethat, you know, this fictitious trade

(54:30):
that we're discussing here now, allof a sudden, I'm interested. And
then because I think I can geta day one, opening day starter to
help me compete right away and fillwhat I think are the two biggest holes
right now, you know, depthchart wise on this twenty twenty four roster.
What does that trade look like?What are the Commanders giving up to

(54:51):
move up to sixty two? Theyhave two picks, I don't have them
specifically the numbers. I think one, we've got thirty six and forty,
thirty six and forty. So wouldyou rather have thirty six and forty than
number sixteen? Yep? You would? Yeah? For what they need right
now. I mean normally I don'tlike doing that, but I mean I'll
sit there and wait till draftded.I'll say, well, you're going to

(55:15):
You're not You're not going to pulla trade like that off until you're on
the clock. Would you rather have? Would you have thirty six and forty
or twenty two and fifty because that'swhat the Eagles got twenty two and fifty.
Um, Well you know now thatyou put it that way, Jackson,

(55:37):
Yeah, I mean yeah, twentytwo and fifty, Yeah, that
sounds good. About twenty five andforty one. Well, I'd rather have
twenty two and fifty than twenty youknow, if if that's what I if
that's what I've got. M So, okay, if I make the preference,
yeah, I'll take the first roundersix picks later and then pick up

(55:57):
the second rounder at number fifty.But I just to me, I mean,
first of all, you've got tohave that team that wants to come
up. There's got to be somethingbeing dangled there at sixteen. It's just
not so easy once quarterbacks come offthe board, that lust to trade into
the first round becomes less. Soyou got to find some player that they're

(56:21):
identifying, and you know who thatplayer I think might be that teams are
going to be willing to do thisfor. And if your next question to
me is going to be you can'ttrade out who you're going to take at
sixteen. I would consider this playerfor the Seahawks as well. Brock Powers.
Oh my god, if you ifBrock Bowers is there, you turn

(56:42):
off your phone. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, I think Brock
Bowers is one of the five bestplayers in this draft. Football players in
this draft. When you draft Rockertied End, yeah, I mean they
were running jet sweeps to this dude. This is Georgia. This is Georgia,
loaded with playmakers, full of futurenflers, and they're running Jets sweep

(57:06):
and bubble screens to Brock Powers.He blocks like George Kittle, like Brock
Bowers is one of the best footballplayers in this draft. If he is
somehow there at sixteen, I don'tthink he's getting past the Jets at ten.
But if he is somehow there atsixteen, man, I'm turning off
my phone. I'm sprinting to thepodium. I'm drafted Rock Powers. Here's

(57:27):
what I like though, going backto the trade down potentials. Here's what
I like about going back to twentytwo as opposed to all the way to
thirty six. You can trade outat twenty two and still get an even
later first round or and a secondround, Like you can keep rolling that
forward. It's a lot harder atthirty six to then be like, well,
oh, there's players that teams aregoing to give up. Now you're

(57:50):
picking up an extra third round ifyou want to trade back out of there.
I just think there's so many moreoptions available to you at twenty two
that aren't there, you know,if you move too far further back than
that. No, and I hearyou, But again, like the practicality
of it is, even at sixteen, there has to be this is why
I brought up Hoers. There hasto be that person that a team trading

(58:10):
up is like, we got toget up and get him, and we'll
give up more draft capital, We'llget up more draft value just to get
up there because we've identified we gotto have this guy, and there's no
way he's getting to us. Sookay, let's say you've executed that once
at sixteen, and then you getdown to twenty two. Now you got
to have another team that identifies anothera different player that they absolutely will give

(58:34):
up extra draft value for it toget up into the number twenty two spot.
So I'm not saying that's not possiblethat roll over and that you just
keep moving down and accruing, becausewe've seen a lot of teams do it.
But it's not as easy as whata lot of just football fans think
it is. Well just get outnow. You got to have the partner,
and you got to have the righttrade, and you have to not

(58:57):
have somebody on the board that youreally do desire in order to sacrifice that
to move down and add picks thatyou don't know who's going to be on
the board at that point. No, it's it's true, I would say,
and I totally agree with you.This is something I push back on
regularly, is like, oh yeah, yeah, trade down, trade down,
Well, you got to find someonewilling to give you something to come

(59:19):
up to that pick. I thinkthis draft is going to provide those opportunities
because you're going to have Quinnon,Mitchell, and Cooper Dejen and Kouolaid McKinstry
the top. You know, threecorners in this class probably still on the
board. At least one of thoseguys still going to be on the board.
You're going to have Xavier Worthy andor Brian Thomas or Troy Franklin or
Ady Mitchell you know, or LadMcConkie that are still there for these wide

(59:40):
receiver needy teams. I do thinkit's more. I think each pick after
the top fifteen, fifteen through twentyfive ish are going to have more trade
back potential than they normally do,just given the depth that the talent of
the top forty players in this draft. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no

(01:00:02):
doubt. And so it'll be funto see how John plays it. People
just automatically assume that John just ishe's gonna trade down, and he does
it a lot. I just thinkJohn likes to trade on on draft Day,
and because he trades, he tradesup Jackson a lot more than what
people realize or give him credit for. Yep, he's made several moves to

(01:00:22):
get it. He can trade itup to get DK you know, in
the in the into the second round, so insane. He was there at
sixty four. Man, thank godhe's slipped. Thank god he's slipped during
the three conrail. That was thebest slip that's ever happened to Seattle.
But yeah, so, I meanit just he does that a little more

(01:00:42):
frequently. So I think he's gonnamove I think he's gonna do his thing.
My guess is it's gonna be amove down. And for the very
reason that you're talking about, becausethis does seem like a pretty deep draft,
and and and they do have alot of needs this year. Yeah,
they got a plug left guard.I think they need a starter there.
I think they need a starter atinside linebacker to go to add to

(01:01:10):
the fold here. But they havea lot of needs beyond that. And
to get a couple bites of theapple versus the one at sixteen. It
just makes way too much sense tome, knowing John's history, that that's
what's going to happen here. Yeah, all right, last thing before we
get out of here. Let's justsay say conversation here. Phone doesn't ring

(01:01:34):
the way you think it's going toring at sixteen, and you're not getting
offered what you thought you were goingto get offered. And let's say we've
got four wide receivers off the boardand five quarterbacks off the board and three
tackles off the board, and you'resitting there and you're looking at a lot
too out of UCLA. Let's sayJared versus there Johnny Newton. Is there

(01:01:55):
is there a player at sixteen thatyou're like, you know what, that
guy's still Byron Murphy. Yeah,this is the guy I'm gonna take.
If you're still there at sixteen andyou're not allowing Bowers into this equation,
who am I allowed to? Ithink we're both taking Would you take Bowers
if you was there? Yes,Okay, then I'm taking them off the
board. It's such an unfair scenario. Suddenly, hey man, you got

(01:02:22):
ten minutes to make this pick.All right, so at sixteen, MM,
I don't even know who's available tome at this point. Well,
I'm not doing the guard and I'mnot doing the linebacker. So if that's
the case, I am gonna takemy favorite front seven guy. I'm gonna

(01:02:42):
take Murphy. Then, if that'sthe case, I'm gonna take Murphy,
and I'm gonna trust you know.I mean, it's gonna be am.
It's gonna serve as a reminder toDraymont Jones like, hey, you got
to be productive or you're gonna bestarted to mention with the words cap hit
very quickly here. I think obviouslythey're fully committed to Leonard Williams but why

(01:03:05):
not, I'll go ahead and Adamto the mix. Obviously, I'm not.
I mean, they're they're gonna You'regonna give different looks to defenses.
He's gonna give you a depth.He could probably play nose tackle for a
few snaps. He can play Ithink a three to four defensive end,
so he can back up both Jonesand Williams, and he obviously is gonna
put heat on those guys. Youbetter perform because we just been a first

(01:03:25):
round pick on somebody that can replaceyou. So I'll go ahead and go
with him because I think he ismy favorite defensive player in the draft.
Yeah. Man, there's there's sothere's so many good options. I think
they're gonna be there at sixteen.I still think follow Tanu from you Dub
is my number one. I'm gonnaslide him down to my number two guy
that I think will still be therebecause I think Lie two Lato the UCLA

(01:03:52):
is my guy as as poorly asI pronounced his name, because I just
think that ability to win both insidethe tackle and outside the tackle that he
has. He's my favorite guy.But you you are bringing in some severe
injury risk with him too, he'dbe my number one. Fontanu out of
dubuld be my number two, andMurphy would be my number three. But

(01:04:12):
I think there's probably going to befive or six guys there that they could
pick that'd be like, yep,good pick. And we haven't even talked
about my favorite defensive player in thisdraft. With Quinon Mitchell out of Toledo
at the cornerback, I don't thinkthey're going to be a corner in the
first round. But I think thisis a guy that is I mean,
I think he's this year's Devin Witherspoonand him there at sixteen is just insane.
But he's going to be there atsixteen. Well, Reg Woland did

(01:04:35):
not have a good year, Iknow, and he did not have a
good so he's not the slam dunkWolan and Witherspoon Etchton Seahawk history for the
next five years at ten year fiveor ten years at cornerback. So I
wouldn't take anything off the table untilwe figure out what a John Schneider Mike

(01:04:56):
McDonald draft looks like, until wekind of start identifying the profile. Mike
McDonald has never been a head coach, so until we start identifying the type
of guys that he would want,the type of groceries that he would choose
rights. You know, it's sohypothetical at this point right then, and
and I think John's going to makethe ultimate decision, but certainly Mike McDonald's

(01:05:19):
going to color this draft completely withcompletely different crayons than what Pete Carroll used.
So I can't wait. I can'twait to see how how it unfolds,
because I do find it fascinating.Yeah, that's that's that's a great
way of putting it. Man.We're gonna see what kind of what kind
of crayons he likes to color with. Yeah, and we're less than three

(01:05:40):
weeks away. Oh, by theway, crazy man, I am.
I am so looking forward to thenext two three episodes of this show leading
up to this draft because it's goingto be so loud by the time we
get to Draft week. Man,this show on Draft week is going to
be crazy. I can't wait.Mike fired up, Mike, are you
sharing the draftmas spirit with me?I mean, is it run through your

(01:06:02):
veins yet? It is? Itis? It's it's growing and mutating like
some sort of disease that I've contractedfrom the both of you. Mike won't
leave me alone with the text allweek. Man, he's going he's under
he's under selling it right now.So we'll close with this whole story.
So now I do the draft missthing on the airwaves, and it,

(01:06:27):
even though I absolutely love it,like ten out of ten, like eleven
out of ten, love the NFLDraft, obviously, what it has become
has become so ridiculous, you know, considering what we thought it was going
to be. So the draft missmonth long thing that I compare it to
Christmas is so tongue in cheek andI hope that anybody listening picks up on

(01:06:49):
that, because it is supposed tobe like comedic, but there's also some
some truth to it, obviously,some truthful comparisons. But when I started
doing this, and there are peoplethat can't stand the draft, right and
they certainly can't stand the hype.That's okay, they're not listening to us,
so you might freely. But thereare people in our industry, there

(01:07:11):
are people in the radio industry,there are people at KJAR can't stand how
much hype it gets and all thatsort of thing. I think our guy
Greg Bell, who you've had oncigar thoughts. He's our guy, he's
our Seahawks insider. We have himon almost every day during the football season,
and he does do a really goodjob covering the draft. But he's

(01:07:32):
one of those guys that eye rollsat how big and how much it has
to dominate. You know, thisis supposed to be his off season,
right, and instead he has towork harder during this month than any other
month because of how popular the eventhas become. The draft has turned NFL
reporting into like tax season for accountants. Yeah, so I've done this draft

(01:07:58):
miss thing, and I think it'smade him unco comfortable. And I think
even like the sacrilege element of ithas made it a little uncomfortable in me
referring to it as that. Andso we've been doing this for years and
he's kind of loosened up over thelast few years. Well, he's been
hosting our midday show here for thelast week from ten to twelve following Bucky

(01:08:19):
and I and I'm driving home onthe way from work, going home from
work, and he's interviewing Omar Ruizfrom NFL Network, which is an old
buddy of his, and so theyhave a fifteen twenty minute conversation about the
draft. They get done and he'slike, saleo to the family for me.

(01:08:40):
Great to catch up to you.You do the same, Greg,
Yeah, great catching up with you. All right, we'll do this again
soon. And when you're in town, we have to go out to dinner.
That sounds great, Greg, Icannot wait. You picked the restaurant.
You're very good at that. Allright, Omar, thanks again.
Happy draftman, I've arrived, hesaid, up doctrinated. I'm telling you,

(01:09:00):
Phil, it's the Draftmas spirit.It fills you up and expected him.
Even even somebody so resistant to itspull like Greg Bell, suddenly is
just doing it casually to old friendsof his, wishing them a happy draft
is the next thing, you know, He's gonna have a Draftmas tree in
the corner of his house. He'sgonna do draft miss caroling from door to

(01:09:23):
door in his neighborhood. I mean, it's just it's gonna overtake you,
whether you like it or not.The draft Miss spirit fills us all.
All right, y'all, that's gonnado it. For the third episode of
Whitewater Drafting, Thank you again toChuck Powell for his time and as always,
you can find Mike, Chuck andI on social media. I am

(01:09:45):
on Twitter at Jackson Bevins. That'sj A. C. S O N.
Remember that no K is okay whenspelling my name. Chuck is that
Chuck Powell kJ R. Mike isthat Mike Barwin? And the show itself
is at Cigar Thoughts. You cancatch full video episodes on a YouTube channel
at Cigar Thoughts and find the restof our socials at Cigar THOUGHTSNFL dot com.

(01:10:05):
And listen to Chuck every weekday morningon KJAR Sports Talk Radio ninety three
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If you're watching on YouTube, yousee me enjoying a glass of their

(01:10:27):
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