Episode 6 - The final one before the actual Draft

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
It's Draft week. After all therumors and anticipation, the big event finally
kicks off in just two days.We'll be recording live during days one and
two. But today we are bringingWhitewater Drafting into shore. Chuck and I
break down this wide receiver class andgive out final predictions for the twenty twenty
four NFL Draft. Let's light themup. I'm Jackson Bevans and I'm Chuck

(00:37):
Powell, and this is Whitewater Drafting. Welcome back to Whitewater Drafting. I
am Jackson Bevans and I am joinedonce more by my friend Chuck Powell of
KJAR Chuck. How are you.Oh, we're almost there. We're almost
to the finish line, the goldenpot at the end of the rainbow,

(00:57):
and it is good man, ohman, just a couple. There's a
few short hours away and we willbe feasting on draft picks. We'll get
to unwrap those gifts that had beenleft and that have been a mystery to
us that we've just speculated and rumoredabout for the better part of months.
So let's do it. Jackson,it's here, yeah man, yeah man.

(01:19):
Well, look for the last sixweeks, you and I've been attacking
this thing from every angle, andwe got one more for everyone listening today,
including my favorite part of this draftclass. But before we get into
it, I want to remind everyonelistening that Whitewater Drafting is proud to be
sponsored by Seattle Cigar Concierge and balveAny Single Malt Scotch Whiskey, two of

(01:40):
my very favorite companies out there,and Seattle Cigar Concierge just teamed back up
with us for a second release ofthe Cigar Thoughts cigars. Starting on draft
day. The Cigar Thoughts Red ZoneCigars, which combine a robust taste profile
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the show page for the same discountedprice of one hundred and forty nine dollars

(02:00):
for a bundle of ten stogies.So stay tuned during and after the draft
to take advantage. But Chuck,look, man, you finally put together
all the information and opinions you've beengathering and you translated them into one mock
draft. I've been waiting for thisbecause I know that as we've worked through
all these other mocks and we've talkedabout all these scenarios, I know you've

(02:21):
got opinions on them, not onlywhat you want to see happen, but
what you will see happen. Nowto those listening, neither Mike or I
have seen this mock yet we aregoing to be reacting in real time to
what Chuck thinks is going to orshould happen, starting on Thursday, all
right, And I'd like to pointout a couple of things. Number One,
I don't come at this. Ithink you put that very well.

(02:42):
I don't come at this from aguy that's sitting down in my man cave
watching video over and over all.You know, thirteen Louisville Cardinal games this
year just to get a read ontheir safety play. I am a gatherer
of information. And also I've beensuch a fanatic of the draft process for

(03:04):
so long. I kind of feellike how the puzzle works. I think
I got a good feel for that. And you know what, maybe I
do have a I just believe thatI might have a little bit of talent
eye for talent, so you know, just a smidge of that as well.
The other thing that I want topoint out before we get started is
there is a society out there thatreally does shun the amateur mock drafter.

(03:29):
And we've got to stop this.It's just a sad commentary on life.
I mean, people are filling outNCAA tournament brackets without any you know,
qualms at all, and they've watchedzero college basketball that year, and we
don't shun that person for filling outa bracket. So no, I've never
been in a war room, butby gum, it's my American right to

(03:50):
fill out a mock Absolutely, man, absolutely, it's you know, mock
drafts are the are the candy youget on Halloween, you know, I
mean, there might not be aton of nutritional value, but you're excited.
You're excited. Dump that pillow caseout when you get home. See
what's in there. Let's see whatyou got. It's a great analogy.
It's it's Halloween candy. Can't makea meal out of it. It'll write

(04:15):
your teeth out. But I promiseyou I won't give you a dental floss.
So here we go, and I'mjust gonna rip through it and then
let you and Mike mock me allyou care. And I'll even wear a
mock turtleneck here on video comm Yeah, finish out the ensemble. Am I

(04:35):
giving you a gym name? Allright? Steve Jobs take it away?
All right, Chicago, let's goCaleb Williams. And I got an argument
with that is that the number onepick here hot take absolutely the right call
spicy number two. Everybody seems tobe leaning towards Jade and Daniels here,

(04:56):
So I'll follow the trends. I'llsay Jade and Daniels to the Washington commander
at number two. Number three.I am gonna spice it up a little
bit because Jackson likes Drake May.It seems that half the league is a
bit split on loving Drake May orreally questioning Drake May. Minnesota has played
its hand. They have to getup in this draft, and New England

(05:18):
seems to be at least entertaining tradeoffers. Desperation could play a role in
this thing. On Thursday. Ithink both the Patriots and the Cardinals are
gonna wait till the very last secondbefore committing to anything that's going to open
them up for trades. And that'swhen the desperate really do get serious.
So I'm gonna go ahead and rollthe dice a little bit. That Minnesota

(05:41):
comes up from number eleven all theway past the Chargers to number three.
It'll cost them both first rounders thisyear, it'll cost next year's first rounder,
and probably a second rounder or twohere in the next year or two.
And I'm gonna go ahead and say, I saw the rule on Kevin
O'Connor lips at the NFL Combine forJJ McCarthy. So I'm going to buck

(06:03):
the trend that Minnesota is trading upfor Drake May, and I'm going to
say they're trading up for young,baby faced JJ McCarthy. Tom Brady g
Wow, Wow, he better hit, he better hit. That's all I
can say. Look, I'm notgonna I'm not gonna fault that mechanism.

(06:24):
If the Vikings do that, ifthey feel like there is a real delta
in between JJ McCarthy and Drake May, and they need to make sure that
it's their guy that they get,and so they jump ahead of number four
to number three and get him.I tell you what, man. You
know, I'm on the record assaying I think Kayleb Williams is going to
be the best quarterback out of thisclass, and the second best quarterback is

(06:46):
going to be the one that goesto Minnesota. So if it's JJ McCarthy,
then I think he's landing in aboutas cushy as spot as the top
three quarterback ever has. Four Igo Arizona with Marvin Harris Junior. I
think they're going to entertain offers,but at the end of the day,
they've done enough accumulating draft assets.It's time to get some players that can

(07:09):
be championship level players. So theystick and pick with Marvin Harrison Junior at
number four and then number five becauseMinnesota the obvious dance partners the Chargers,
and now we've already got three quarterbacksthat have come off the board. Is
anybody else going to be that aggressiveand move up to the number five spot
to take a Drake May I'm goingto say that they're not going to get

(07:32):
the offers they want. Chargers stayat number five and they take a tackle
Joe Alt to protect poor Justin Herbert. Okay, who's been Gibby. I
love this, Yeah, I lovethis. I think this is the pick
for the Chargers. I really do. Everyone saying it'll be Malik Neighbors,
a lot of brock Bowers, alot of trading back look, Harbaugh wants

(07:56):
his offensive line. He believes thatthe offensive line dictates the success of the
team, and you have a potentiallytranscendent tackle waiting for you at number five.
I took this bet that the Chargerswould draft Joe Ault at five at
nine to one. So I'm reallyreally hoping that you're right, probably not,
probably not going to be right aboutthis yet, Let's let's get it

(08:18):
all out in the open, planningon nailing a lot of these at number
six, then I'm going to givethe Giants your guy, Okay, Tiki
Barber. They're not going to draftJJ McCarthy, but they are going to
draft a quarterback. So the Giants, who apparently are trying to move up
to three to get Drake May,then get Drake May anyway at number six.

(08:39):
So that'd be incredible if they Ifthey get the guy that until honestly,
very recently was considered the one Ain this draft class at six,
and they don't have to trade futurepicks in order to do it, Holy
smokes man, that that super chargestheir timeline. Well, I think if
Minnesota, Minnesota, I think isgo to move up. But if they

(09:01):
go all the way to three andbypass the Chargers. Is there another team
that's going to be that aggressive tocome up there and get May? As
Vegas who seems to have its eyeon tennis, are they going to come
up and do that? If NewEngland has moved down from three, are
they going to move back up tosix. I think that they could do
a move back up move at thatmoment, but I don't know if it's

(09:26):
back as high as six to getDrake May. But I'm gonna go out.
Know who should do it? No? I love I mean, I
would love this for the Giants.You know who should be doing it that.
I haven't heard anybody talking about theNew York Jets should be working their
ass off to get into the topfive and take a quarterback. All their

(09:48):
best players are young except for theirquarterback, and that guy is one injury
away, one anything away, oneoff field pursuit away from being gone.
And look, if you don't geta quarterback this year and Aaron Rodgers stays
healthy and you win ten, eleven, twelve games, you're not gonna have
a shot at one of the topguys next year. And what's supposed to

(10:09):
be a pretty depressed QB class,So Man, you're talking about teams that
might be looking to move up.I haven't heard any smoke around the Jets,
but man, if I was them, I'd be working real hard at
moving up. If Drake May's stillon the board, well I put them
in that gauntlet, that quarterback gauntlet. And this is what I've been talking
about. This is why I thinksix quarterbacks go on the first twelve picks,

(10:30):
because of the need of And I'llput the Jets in there to your
point at ten. And then you'vegot Minnesota originally. Now i've got New
England sitting there at eleven. Theystill need a quarterback. Denver. You
know, maybe Zach Wilson's the answerin circ give him number three. So
all those Broncos Jersey, all thoseBroncos fans keep their Wilson jerseys. Denver's

(10:54):
in there, Vegas is obviously inthere, and I even think New Orleans
somebody that should be interested in aquarterback of the future as well. So
that's ten through fourteen. That's fivepicks. That's a gauntlet of teams that
either need improvement now or in thefuture, or both. So we'll see
how that plays out. All right, Number seven, This is where it

(11:15):
starts to get really crazy here.Yeah, because everybody's been saying Joe Alt.
Everybody's been saying Joe Alt to Tennessee, and your bored. He's gone.
So we're not going to get theleft tackle to help young Will Levis.
We've already invested a lot in thewide receivers. We've got Ridley here
added we've got Hopkins. So whatdoes a quarterback love? Nexty blanket tied

(11:43):
in brock Powers. Wow, Ihaven't heard this one yet. I like
it. That just seems like kindof a culture fit right there. Yeah,
exactly, didn't have to leave theSouth. I like this. I
like this Chuck Yeah, and lookyeah, I think. And by the
way, this is a real ChuckPowell original here. I even ran this

(12:05):
by Charles Davis the other day whenhe came on my radio show name Drop.
And that is that the Chiefs.If brock Bauer starts to slip down
this board, you know, pastnine or ten, don't be surprised at
the Chiefs don't come up there andsay, you know what, Patrick Mahomes,
we kind of love you with thisTravis Kelsey guy, and we don't

(12:26):
want you to ever live without him. So let's just get his doppel gang
er, brock Bauers, And sowe'll have them both for two years,
and then brock Bauers is your guyfor the rest of the time you're here.
I mean, Mahome's gonna be arounda lot longer than Kelsey. Yeah.
Well, and here's the other thing. And I'm sure you will reveal

(12:48):
as any great performer will and duetime here. But the idea of Malik
Neighbors still being on the board atpick eight, now, in my mind,
if it's playing out on Thursday,the way that your mock draft is
going, I think phones start ringingfrom teams that weren't thinking about trading into

(13:09):
the top ten. If you're theBills. Can you imagine, I agree
what you're considering. Yeah, Imean you're almost making like a quarterback type
play from elite Neighbors or Romadounze ifhe's still on the board at this point.
But all right, I'm jumping ahead, man. I'm very curious to
hear where you go from here.I even surprised myself with how because I

(13:30):
am not picking them yet, Becausehere I am at number eight and the
New England Patriots. I think aretrading down to trade up and grab Michael
Pennix at number eight and a tradewith Canada Falcons. Okay, now they
invite Pennick's top ten pick. Theyinvited they're a top three team in the

(13:50):
draft, and they invited Michael PennixJunior for a visit to New England.
I mean, why do you evenneed to throw that smoke screen if there's
no interest in it. I mean, it's not like anybody else is thinking
about taking him. Maybe they're hopinghe's still there at thirty five. I
mean I would say there's probably adecent chance he's still there early second.
But apparently Robert Kraft has handed oversome of this to his son, which

(14:13):
is always a mistake. And I'mnot saying it's a mistake to take Michael
Penox. I love Michael Penix Junior. But I think New England is trading.
If they trade down, then they'vegot another trade up, and so
maybe they've identified Pennix as our guythat we want, plus the extra draft
capital that we get for trading downfrom the number three selection. So what

(14:39):
do you think of Penix? Canyou picture Pennick and a Patriot helmet and
uniform. Oh no, I meanI'm into I mean, gosh, I
feel for whichever one of these quarterbacksdoes go to New England because it's going
to be really hard to look goodearly with that dearth of talent around them.
But I like Penix a lot.As everyone listening to this show knows,
what do you What kind of tradedo you have them making here?

(15:01):
Are they giving up twenty three tomove from eleven to eight or something in
the future. Oh no, theyjust they go. So they would have
eleven and twenty three, so theywould move eleven to Atlanta and then they
would from that stage. You're maybeit is their second round or I don't
know if I've even thought it outthat far. Yeah, no, no,
no worries, no, no needto get caught in the particulars there.

(15:22):
And the trade you had the makingwith Minnesota gives them lots of future
first that they can potentially work intothis deal too. All right, so
we got pennixton New England. Yeah, what I love about this so far?
Nobody was going to have this stuff. No, this is this is
one hundred percent novel at this point. I'm into it because you know that's
how the draft is going to go. It's not like anyone is picked.

(15:45):
Well. I don't like it.Even the top ten correctly is doing yeah,
exactly. So number nine again anothershocker. This has been something rumored
out there, and the Bears they'regoing to try to move down, but
they don't want to move down sofar that they don't get the guy that
they apparently cover it on defense.So I'm giving them my favorite defensive player
in the draft, Byron Murphy atnumber nine. Wow. Wow, Molik

(16:10):
Neighbors still on the board, onthe board, not for much longer.
Roman donsday ten to the Jets.Good fit. Minnesota has traded to New
England, who has traded to Atlanta, and Atlanta still has the chance to
move down and obtain more draft capital, and they're gonna do it. Indiana

(16:30):
comes up from fifteen to get EleakNeighbors. Oh my god, Oh my
god, Michael Pittman, Moleak Neighbors, Josh Downs if he's your flavor,
and he's definitely my flavor. Imean, you want to find out what
you got in Anthony Richardson, that'sright, Oh Davy, oh baby,

(16:52):
I love this. Twelve. I'mgoing bow Nicks I'm standing on business here.
I've said six quarterbacks to go onthe first thirteen picks. Denver sitting
there at number twelve, so theytake bow Nicks, and you know what
that means. The Las Vegas Raiders, who are very quarterback needy, don't
have a quarterback to draft at numberthirteen. They were leible around, so

(17:18):
they'll just have to pick up thepieces of their shattered lives, uh and
take quinnyon Mitchell cornerback out of Toledoat thirteen. Look, man, I
want to give the listeners some redmeat. I want to I want to
fight you on some of these picks. I'm loving this. I am loving
this for every team so far.I like love a car crash. Here's

(17:44):
the thing, because Dallas Turner isthe first defensive player off the board for
a lot of these mocks, themajority of these mocks. And now you're
starting to see some talent that iskind of consensus top ten slipping into these
teams in the back half of thelottery, which is soon fun. And
I think Dallas Turner is good forsure. I think he's the best edge

(18:04):
rusher in this class. But he'snot my favorite defensive player. My two
favorite defensive players are the first twothat you have coming off the board with
Murphy and Quinyon. So I'm intothis man, and I think that's a
good pick for the Raiders. Andlook, I think Dallas Turner, I
mean everything I hear about him isten out of ten in ability and yet

(18:27):
may not have the transferable skill thatthey're looking for on tape. So I
mean, you've got him the freakishathlete versus Leatu Latu, who's just the
producer, and Verse who's probably somewhereright there in the middle of the two.
So I've got Turner falling. Howfar I don't know, but I

(18:49):
go fourteen Fashanu of Penn State goesto the New Orleans Saints, and then
fifteen I'm picking the lead. Theyjust lost Ram, right, they just
Ramchick just injury some some have withhim. They let him go. Yeah,
their big need, Their biggest needseems to be again just a gatherer

(19:11):
of information, a shepherd of information, if you will. It seems to
be on the offensive line. SoIndy, Indiana, Indianapolis's next. The
excuse me, Atlanta is next becausethey flipped with the Colts. Finally,
the Colts could get Elik Neighbors,and the Falcons want the more productive pass
rushers, so they're going to LiatuLatu here, not Dallas Turner, And

(19:33):
all of a sudden, all thecameras keep showing Dallas Turner in the green
room. Sad well and super funif you're an Atlanta fan, because I
don't think the gap between Turner andLatu, depending on how comfortable you are
with the medicals of a guy whoretired from football in college for injury reasons,
but pure on field, I don'tlike. I will be zero percent

(19:56):
surprised if Lattu is the more productiveNFL player. And so if you're to
the Falcons and you're able to gofrom eight to eleven to fifteen and pick
up all of the extra assets thatcome at that and still get a top
end pass rusher, which everyone thinksyou're doing at eight, love it.
Okay, sixteen, that's the Seahawkspick, and I do have them trading
down. So this is something thatI believe is going to occur. I

(20:19):
don't think John Schneider is going towait six steady on that eighty one to
make his selection, so he movesdown and Buffalo is his dance partner.
I think you are absolutely on ifthis draft falls the way that I've said,
and it's not going to, butyou're right. I think Buffalo becomes
a real juicy even Kansas City getsreally aggressive, like if okay, if

(20:42):
Neighbor's going to be a ten oreleven or Donesday's going to be a ten
and eleven, we'll make that moveup from twenty eight or thirty two in
the Chiefs case. But I'm goingto go ahead, and I think I'm
on this Buffalo thing. Now.It started off where I thought that Washington
would be their best dance part butnow that Buffalo's traded digs, I think
they're coming up for a wide receiver. I think the last guy that looks

(21:06):
like a potential wide receiver, startingwide receiver maybe one WR one for Josh
Allen is Brian Thomas, junior ofLSU. So Buffalo comes up and gets
him. The Seahawks get their twentyeighth pick overall, sixtieth pick overall,
and two fifths from a team thathas two fourths, three fifths, fifth

(21:30):
rounders, and two sixth rounders inthis draft. How would you feel,
Mike Mike, I'm gonna pull youin on this too. If this trade
goes down, what's your immediate reaction. Twenty eight is quite the descent.
I'm going to be pretty nervous.I think it's I think that's if they
have something waiting in the wings tomove back up a few spots, then

(21:52):
I feel better about it. Buttwenty eight is quite the climb down the
last. Oh, you're really gonnahate it when you hear the pick.
Yeah, well, because here's here'sthe thing. So if this happens in
real time and those listening and watchingon YouTube are gonna see my reaction in
real time when this additional second,that's tough. Just for an additional second.
It is. It's a low second, it is. You know.

(22:14):
I was funny. I was golfingwith a couple of buddies the other day
and we were talking about the draft. Now, I was like, I'm
not sure there's a single thing thatthe average NFL fan overvalues more than a
second round pick, Like the hitrate is just not super high. But
everyone's so upset we don't have asecond round pick. Like I mean,
I am too. I wish wehad it. I'd rather have Leonard Williams.
But whatever. So okay, allright, So now now what you

(22:40):
just did, Chuck, is createa very tense additional hour for Seahawks fans
with this, with this trade.Yeah, well that's true. But I
love I'd love Brian Thomas Junior forthe Bills, and I think they should
do whatever they need to do toget him on their team. All right,
I'm gonna fly through these next onesand when we'll get and we'll get

(23:02):
to Seahawks. At twenty eight,so Jacksonville takes Adni Mitchell, not Xavier
Worthy. Nice. Cincinnati takes Troyfa Utanu, which I think is a
great fit for them. The Ramsthen get Dallas Turner, who has fallen
in my mock draft all the wayto nineteen. That might be a little

(23:23):
scary. Twenty Pittsburgh takes a MariusMems, the giant tackle out of Georgia.
Miami replaces oh gosh, what canI think of his name? The
defensive tackle they just lost free agencyto the Raiders, christianewikins Christian Wilkins with
Johnny Newton out of Illinois. Attwenty one, Philadelphia takes Terry and Arnold

(23:45):
Cornerback out of Alabama. New Englandgets their next pick from the trade they
made earlier. They take taliase Fuagaout of Oregon State. J C.
Latham falls to the Dallas Cowboys attwenty. It's just incredible value. Green
Bay Packers get Cooper Dejene, defensiveback out of Iowa at twenty five.

(24:06):
Tampa Bay then gets Jared Verse theedge from Florida State at twenty six.
Arizona chop Robinson out of Penn Stateat twenty seven. Okay, all right,
there's still one guy here. There'sone guy the Seahawks can draft right
now. That's gonna make me realhappy. You're you're, you're, you're
not gonna like its gonna be.Don't do it, don't do it.

(24:30):
Don't don't draft Junior Colson Graham Barton, Oh god, you know this is
a johnt You're gonna hear this,and you know, you know Seahawks football,
both of them, like, youknow, this is a John Snyder
pick right here? All right?Edgern Cooper, Oh my god, I'm

(24:52):
right, I'm sold twenty eight andwe'll bash it as a don't get I
think called bash it. I'll bedisappointed that they didn't take Newton in that
scenario, and I'll be a littledisappointed they didn't take Barton. I have
warmed to Eddrin Cooper quite a bitsince the first time I saw him mock

(25:14):
to Seattle in Danny Heifitz's original mockdraft at thirty two and in trade with
the Chiefs. I was like,really, I don't know about all that.
And then, you know, whenwe were doing our Linebacker episode a
couple of weeks ago, we weretalking about him digging into this guy a
little more. I could see it. I could see it. He he
just has to be so good thatif they got more than just sixty,

(25:40):
well so the first, the second, and two fifths, Yeah, two
fits or nothing enough. Two fitsare nothing to me, not to the
Seahawks. All of their great pickscome in the fifth round. We're just
gonna keep doubling down on outlier.You know what Chuck's doing. Chuck is
hitting on eighteen. Chuck sitting atthe blackjack table and he's hitting. I

(26:03):
know that's counting cards. He's kindof cards. I feel it in my
bones, all right, all right, And again, this is not this
is this is not me playing GregCosell or Hugh Millen. Here, this
is me gathering information. I've followedthis draft. I followed John Schneider for
eight years, and this is metrying to forecast what I think he's going

(26:26):
to do. And and listen,this is very Jordan Brooksy, and Jordan
Brooks is not here. It's veryBobby Wagnery. Bobby Wagner's not here.
It is a position of need.Something tells me that John Schneider drools over
Edger and Cooper. Well, andit'll it'll speak to how Mike McDonald wants
to build this defense. So,yeah, they're gonna get benefited doubt with

(26:48):
me if they draft Cooper. Andlook, it's there's a lot of talk
about Cooper to Seattle at some way, shape or form. And I know
Daniel Jeremiah has Eddam Cooper is histwentieth best player in this draft. I
think Lance Zerline has him at twentyone. I mean, these are dudes
who are super dialed in. Theythink he is far and away the best

(27:10):
off ball linebacker in this class.Sure twenty eight, man, let's hope
he's good. Yeah, and I'lljust finish it out. Kool Aid mckinstrey
to the Lions at twenty nine,Graham Barton at thirty to Baltimore. San
Francisco takes Xavier Worthy, and KansasCity gets Lad McConkey from Georgia. There

(27:33):
you go, there's my friend,all right there. Yeah, if that's
the case, and I'm Seattle,I'm packaging sixty eighty one, both my
new fifths, my fourth whatever Igotta do to get up and take Johnny
Newton at the top of the secondround, I had Newton going. I
have Newton going to Miami at twentyone. Oh, I'm sorry, Okay,
I miss that. I miss that. That's my bad. All right,

(27:55):
Okay, I'm I'm into this.You know the thing that stands out
to me about these my drafts,and I gotta say, Chuck, this
is one of my favorites because itis this is not a consensus mock draft,
and yet just about all of thesemoves really do seem reasonable from from
a need and asset standpoint from eachof these teams. Did you have Dallas

(28:18):
Turner go into the Rams? DidI catch that? Yep? That's that
is infuriating. I was telling Mikethe one thing that I can count on
in this draft is I'm going tobe so irritated by whoever the rams take.
Well, I knew what I wrotethat in. I'm like, man,
that is going to scare some peopleright there. But I'm just not

(28:42):
as big on him as what othersare. And I'm starting to hear I'm
starting to hear some rumors out therethat maybe, you know, maybe there
are some doubts about his game,not his talent, but his game.
So you know, we'll see.So that's a little bit of That's a
pretty big roll of the dice forme. But you know, again,

(29:03):
just gathering information and trying to disperseit in a way that is logical but
not formulaic like so many of themock drafts end. No, man,
I think that was a perfect blendof that. And you know, one
of the things that stands out tome about your mock is how many wide
receivers you had going in the firstround and how many good wide receiver profiles

(29:30):
will still be on the board headinginto day two. And look, man,
we've covered just about every position groupin this year's class except for that
one. And this is not onlymy favorite position group this year, it
might be my favorite class at anyposition in a number of seasons. Let's
talk wide receivers. Do now,it's unlikely that Seattle uses anything resembling a

(29:52):
high pick on wide out this year. You can make a case that from
a pure talent standpoint, Seattle isa top three, top five unit Metcalf,
Tyler, Lockett, Jackson Smith,and Jigbud. They've used a lot
of salary cap space and draft capitalto get to that position. So we're
going to zoom out from Seattle herea little bit and just talk from an
NFL perspective about what is just anunbelievable class of wideouts. And for the

(30:18):
sake of this discussion, I wantahead and group this class into tears,
not a ton of them, becauseI think it gets a little blurry after
the top four. But I dobelieve we have a true big three at
the top of this class. Right, This is not groundbreaking. You got
Marvin Harrison junior of Ohio State andLak Neighbors out at LSU Rome Dunse from

(30:40):
U DUB. You had them goingas the top three wide receivers in your
draft class. You had a Donzaysecond and Neighbors third, which is a
little bit counter to consensus, Buttalk to me about these guys who they
remind you of, if anyone,and how you would have them on your
draft board. We know how youhave them in your mock draft based on
how you think teams will approach it. But if you were just random team

(31:03):
I am team randomizing, you don'tknow what team you're going to end up
being, and you have to puttogether a wide receiver big board. How
do you stack those top three?I do have Marvin Harrison Junior. First,
I have compared him in this processto Randy Moss with a good attitude.
Now he's not as fast and hedoesn't quite jump as high, but
Randy Moss is one of the mostfreakish athletes in NFL history. But the

(31:27):
size is there and the skill setis there, So he is my number
one guy. I think that.You know, even though in Seattle we
love Rome and there's very little notto like about Rome, you know that
I still think Harrison is the clearcut best player in this draft that's not

(31:49):
a not a quarterback. As amatter of fact, I think he's I
think he's a better wide receiver prospectthan what Williams is as a quarterback prospect.
So I think Marvin Harrison's won,But I'm with you. I think
on the same shelf, maybe Irank Harrison first, and maybe I think
there's a little bit of separation,But I think that on the top tier

(32:10):
you have neighbors from LSU and Iput Rome ahead of even neighbors. So
I put Rome in the middle ofthem. I just don't see where Rome
adoone Say's weaknesses. The size,the speed, the hands, the late
hands, which is something that scoutstalk about, and it's such an underrated

(32:31):
skill for an NFL receiver. Hemakes such natural catches and he never gives
away that the ball is coming towardhim, and so he can just at
the very last second flash his handsup and just cradle it in for an
easy catch. The route running isthere. The he's a great kid,

(32:52):
he's you know, he's got theattitude that you're looking for. He's got
that, he's got it. He'sgot beyond a good personality as a magnetic
personality. There's just nothing not tolike about him. So I'm with you
one hundred percent. I think thatthose three guys are on the top tier,
and I would rank them Harrison ADoonesay, and Neighbors, and I

(33:12):
really you know, I know i'ddo my mock draft, but I think
the odds are that both Neighbors anda doonsay are going higher than where I
put them in the mock. Sure, sure, yeah, you know I'm
the same way. That's a clearcut top three. I think that,
you know, Marvin Harrison Jr.Is is my number one. His high
end comp because those are the funones, right, no one, No

(33:32):
one wants to hear the mid levelcomps for these guys. My high end
comp for Marvin Harrison Junior is LarryFitzgerald, who is maybe the single most
underrated wide receiver of my entire lifetime, and the stats bear that out.
He was the best player on almostevery field he ever stepped on, and
in college was just doing to defenderswhat Marvin Harrison Jr. Did to defenders

(33:58):
in college. I think he's Ithink he's number one, But I think
Milik Neighbors in Roman Dunze would bethe number one wide receiver in eighty to
ninety percent of draft classes the lasttwenty years, which which just speaks to
how special this group is to me. Melik Neighbors, you know, there's
there's a lot of Jamar Chase comparisonsthere, and I don't think that's just

(34:22):
helmet scouting. To me, theway that he plays reminds me of or
Jalen Waddle with fifteen extra pounds.That's that's who I see Milik Neighbors as.
And if you could put three inchesand fifteen pounds on Jalen Waddle,
you're talking about true, true widereceiver one. I'd say you play out

(34:44):
this reality one hundred times. Thisis the lens that I view this stuff
through is not binary. It isprobability focused. And I always think about,
Okay, if you play out thisreality one hundred times, how many
times does a specific thing happen?You play this out one hundred times,
I think Malik Neighbors is the bestwide receiver out of this class. Thirty
to forty of those times, Ithink he's that good. So yeah,

(35:06):
I'm I'm right there with you.I think if you're shooting for absolute upside,
I'm taking Leak Neighbors over Roma Dunza. If you're looking for safety,
I think Roma Dunze is DeVante adamsMan. That's my COI for him,
And that's why I think that thetwo of them particularly. It will really
depend on who's drafting because there area lot of wide receiver needy teams at

(35:30):
the top end. Chargers are oneif they don't trade out at five.
Even if they do trade out,they're going to be one at eleven,
potentially Giants if they don't go quarterback. I think their next biggest need is
to get a playmaking wide receiver.I think Tennessee could use another wide receiver.
And I think when Brian Callahan andthe Cincinnati Bengals had a chance to

(35:52):
choose between a tackle and a widereceiver, they went with Jamar Chase a
couple of years ago as the bestway to protect Joe Burrow is to give
him a number one, a truenumber one wide receiver. So I think
they would be in the market.I don't think the Bears are out of
the market at number nine. Youknow that the Jets are interested in a
wide receiver at ten because Aaron Rodgersis always beating the drum for another weapon

(36:17):
to add to his arsenal. SoI really think, though, it comes
down to what's the need that youhave there, and if it's the Jets,
like I think Roma Dunzay's the guybecause of the Adams comp. I
think it's Aaron Rodgers wanting to kindof can I have young Davante Adams on

(36:37):
my team? So if I've gota choice between Neighbors and a doonsay,
I'm taking him where Tennessee might goNeighbors because it's just a different receiver than
what they have in Hopkins and inRidley. He brings a completely different profile
than that, and that gives yousort of three different types of weapons,

(36:58):
and you're in your passing game thatyou can throw too. So I think
O'doonsday and Neighbors are so close toone another that it really is just going
to depend on fit, organizational fit, how they would choose between them,
pick to pick. Yeah, Itend to agree with you. And in
this next tier, it's one playertier for me. And it's the guy

(37:19):
that you had Buffalo trading up withSeattle to take this. Brian Thomas,
also out of LSU, And Ithink the reason, you know, some
people listening maybe like, well,Seattle isn't going to take a wide receiver.
Why would Buffalo trade so much tojump up to sixteen. It's because
the Jaguars are sitting at seventeen.Yep, And I promise you if Brian

(37:42):
Thomas is on the board at seventeen, Jacksonville has taken them. And so
that's what I think Buffalo's doing thatthat may have been your thought process as
well. For yes, moving upto sixteen is get ahead of Jacksonville.
And I love Brian Thomas. Heis not as well rounded as the top
three guys, but his athleticism isinsane. I mean, a sub four

(38:02):
four forty at two hundred and tenpounds is wild. I mean you're talking
you're counting guys on two hands thathave ever done that at the Combine,
and you're talking about guys on onehand that have done that with top season
production numbers that Brian Thomas has.Now you know there's gonna be some.

(38:23):
He ran like eighty percent of hisroutes were either goes, corners or digs,
and when DK Metcalf came out,those are the only routes he was
running two And I think Brian Thomasis good enough. I think that Joe
Brady's system is good enough, andI think that Josh Allen is good enough
that you can afford to let aplayer like Brian Thomas develop and hope that

(38:47):
he develops the same way that DKMetcalf did, and add the extra routes,
you know, being average to averageplus at the other six routes besides
those three that I mentioned in termsof his development. So I'm big on
Brian Thomas, and I think thatif he goes to Buffalo, Jacksonville,
or Kansas City, he is goingto be screaming up fantasy ball. I

(39:08):
would just point out two extra thingsabout him. One run after the catch
and not just the ability to runaway, something that I would like to
see more from DK Metcalf running throughHe is hard to bring down. So
he's somebody that can break tackles aftercatching the football. Where a lot of
receivers just kind of depend upon runningaway from defenders, Thomas can run through

(39:32):
you, and I'd like to seeDK Metcalf used more that way. My
gosh, how many times I've justwanted to see him flash on a slant
right across the field about seven yardsdeep into the secondary, catch the ball
on the dead run, and darea cornerback to try to bring him down.
I think that's something you could dowith Thomas. See that's something that
I feel like that's something I feellike DK Metcalf does pretty consistently, especially

(39:57):
this last year. Is his averagedep the target down I I actually I
see him as a pretty precocious catchthe ball, short turn and look to
drive them someone. So I'm curiouswhat we're seeing differently short though, is
the one step drop dump it offto him behind the line of scrimmage.
We've seen that plenty. I'm talkingabout get him going full speed across slanding

(40:22):
across the middle of the field.Uh, let him catch it and turn
up field and then dare somebody totry to get in his way at full
speed. That's something that I don'tthink they utilize enough. There's way too
much, you know, one onone, you know, low percentage throw
down the sideline and then and thento try to get him more touches,

(40:44):
they'll just dump off at the lineof scrimmage or behind the line of scrimmage
and then ask him to run overfive guys. I want to get him
in the open. I'll hear youthere. Gosh. I felt like I
saw a lot of those five toseven yard slants to to Dkay this this
past year. But you know,I think a lot of that had to
do with how much the line wasstruggling too. And it's funny, you

(41:05):
know, we're comping Brian Thomas asbeing this really big. I don't think
he's the guy to DK Metcalf andthen it's like, oh, he's twenty
five pounds lighter. I like,just for everyone that wants to trade DK,
let's just remember what we're talking abouttrading. I don't think that they're
a comp I think though, buthe does bring the size, the ability

(41:28):
to break tackles as DK has,and then maybe the best attribute to Brian
Thomas, and I do think it'sa skill. He's got a nose for
the end zone. I mean,he caught a touchdown pass every four catches
this past year. He led thenation in touchdown catches was seventeen. So
he caught he ended up in theend zone every four times that he caught
a football this year. That isthat's a remarkable ratio. And I don't

(41:52):
think that's just a fluke. Theremight be something flucish about that high of
a ratio, and of course playingin a high powered Allen like l les
huge part of it as well.But I think that that is a skill.
I think that is a talent.I have a nose for the end
zone. I agree. I agree. Touchdowns are not a sticky stat for
wide receivers except for great wide receivers. And look, Brian Thomas can be

(42:15):
that. Here. Here's the thing, Josh Allen's going to throw a lot
of touchdowns every year. They gotto go to somebody. There ain't a
lot of guys for them to goto right now. So if he goes
to Buffalo, I think he becomesan immediate eight plus touchdown per year threat.
So yeah, I think you andI are in accord with Brian Thomas
kind of as a clear number four. Now this next year, this third
tier could be two players, itcould be twelve players. I am including

(42:42):
a pretty large third tier here.I'm going to run through the names really
quickly that I have. You canadd anyone you like, Chuck, but
I'm also going to put pull Mikein here on the first two names because
he and I have been going backand forth on him. So the first
two names in this third tier forme are the Texas receiver. You got
Xavier Worthy, the light guy right, one hundred and sixty seven pounds,

(43:04):
sets the combine record four two oneforty. And then you have ad Ni
Mitchell, who's way taller, wayheavier and ran a four three eight and
has all of the gifts and everythinglike if you're going to build a receiver
in the lab, that's ad NiMitchell. I also am including Lad McConkie,
who you had as a first roundpick. I believe to the Chiefs

(43:25):
and your mock draft. I've gotTroy Franklin out of Oregon, Kean Coleman
out of Florida State is Xavier Lgetteout of South Carolina, Roman Wilson from
Michigan, Ricky Piersoll from Florida,and the two UW receivers Jalen Polk and
Jalen McMillan. Want to get yourthoughts on all of them first, but
I'm going to bring in my boyMike here real quick to talk about these
Texas receivers. So I'm an ExavierWorthy guy, Mike is an ad Ni

(43:51):
Mitchell guy. Mike, the florais yours. It's true, it's true.
So you know we've gone back andforth a lot on this and chatter.
Bob, if I can eight mileyou here for a second, I
understand the arguments against ad Mitchell.I do love a trailer with my mom.
That's right, he sure you,buddy, Yeah, I understand my
best friend Bob shot himself. Iunderstand that Okay, eighty Mitchell freak athlete.

(44:16):
Those guys, when they have lowproduction, they usually don't translate to
production in the NFL. All right. I understand that XAVI, you're worthy.
He had the drop season school alot of the time. That's not
a very sticky stat I understand thatuh Ady Mitchell's down to down production and
effort is not all that great forme. This is kind of a flavor

(44:40):
preference thing in terms of like aduneesay versus neighbors. Right, if you
want the burner with the crazy yakability, neighbors might be your guy.
I'm more of a shifty X kindof guy rather than an elite Z.
I want a guy if we canequate this to basketball, like we so
often do for receivers. I don'tnecessarily like Klay Thompson, for example.

(45:01):
You have to chase him around thefloor, and if you leave him open
for a split second, he canburn you from deep. But I love
a guy that can just go geta bucket and ad Mitchell is that dude.
He's wiggley, he's got hands,he's got jump all ability. He's
kind of like that Roma Dunese styleof receiver with more question marks. Something

(45:23):
I will say about the production forMitchell. Okay, yeah, he didn't
have the pure volume, but thisguy played in five college football playoff games,
including two national championships, and hehad a touchdown in every single one
of those games, including in histrue sophomore campaign. Well in his true
freshman year. He caught the goahead touchdown in the National championship, and

(45:45):
the next year he was injured,I believe in Week two, didn't play
the rest of the season, cameback in the Peach Bowl against Ohio State
the c J. Stroud game,had three catches in a touchdown, and
oh man, I love a bucketgetter. I understand, though, if
you're a GM whose reputation and jobis built upon making these decisions and what's

(46:10):
the best bet, I can understandwanting to take worthy A lot of the
stuff with ad Mitchell, and alot of those cons I feel like might
be able to be attributed to Quinnyours. I'm not a Quinn, youers
guy, and if he's a guythat you can't rely on, ad Mitchell,
that is down to down in termsof effort. I feel like an

(46:31):
inconsistent quarterback might be a stressor thatwill exacerbate those issues. Which is to
say that if if we've seen himgoing at twenty eight to the bills a
lot, if you put him withJosh Allen, I feel like that can
assuage some of that stuff and pushhim to give that effort and focus on

(46:52):
a more regular basis. But againand again, you know, well this
is also you know, my professionalfootball. Okay, so this is a
full time job. Now, thisis you never know, when you demand
of somebody to act professionally, someof that, some of those sophomoric traits

(47:12):
of his can be I mean,if I'm a GM, I'm taking the
talented guy. I'm taking that guyyou described. And I'm saying to my
coaching staff where I've got a headcoach, I got an offensive coordinator,
I got a full time position coach. I got veterans, some of them
thirty thirty five years old in myreceiver room. And I think I got
an leadership that I'm going to stayon this guy's ass, and I want

(47:37):
to air on the side of theall around talent. And then I'm going
to leave it to my leaders,coaches and players alike to make sure this
guy doesn't slip through the cracks.Because I'm with you, I think I
see something special. I know I'vewatched plenty of baseball games where I'm like,
you just did a favor to theother team by taking out a pitcher

(48:00):
or that they couldn't hit just becausehis pitch count, just because the matchup
in the book said that it wastime to go to your lefty out of
the pen. You just did thema favor. They're celebrating right now in
the dugout. I had that samesort of experience when Washington played Texas.
I'm like, whenever you don't throwto Mitchell, I celebrate because this guy

(48:23):
is might be unstoppable tonight, likewhen he was driven, when he was
playing with passion, when he wastrying to make it of a national championship
game. I mean, I wasrelieved when they weren't looking his way.
And that's about as great a complimentas I can give to a wide receiver.
Yeah, he's he's a big gameplayer, and that in itself is

(48:45):
kind of an indictment in that.Okay, how are you going to perform
in a random week in the middleof November, right, But if you're
inside the red zone, who doyou want in your huddle? I want
ad Mitchell And I think Texas didtoo on the last game. On the
last play of that Sugar Bowl,they threw it up to their jump ball
guy, and if quinn Ewers hadany ounce of decisiveness in his body,

(49:07):
if he rips that throw in there, it's a touchdown. Elijah Jackson got
his legendary moment. But every singlebig play that Washington gave up this year
through the air, odds are you'regoing to see Elijah Jackson with his face
mask in the turf on the otherend of that completion. And like I
said, if he goes to Buffaloor somewhere with a quarterback that can actually

(49:29):
make the throws, I that's justa skill set I want to bet on.
I will say also that Tyler Dunnand go Along had a pretty in
depth piece on Mitchell being a Typeone diabetic, and I won't pretend to
have any insight on that. Andyou know, the infrastructure around him to
help regulate blood sugar levels. Butthere's a lot that goes into this,

(49:52):
and gms like we talked about,are going to make a pick based on
what is the best bet you know, playing the game. And I totally
understand making the Worthy pick if that, if that's your preference, But Adie
Mitchell is my type of receiver.Man. All right, Jackson, all
right, valid points across the board. You guys have convinced me, you

(50:16):
know what, I can't. Ican't argue with that. You guys you
got I'm just kidding. Listen,you want to talk to me about First
of all, I'm not going tostart this off by why I'm not an
Adie Mitchell guy. I'm gonna startthis off by why I'm an Xavier Worthy
guy. Look, he's small,I get it. And you're like,

(50:38):
oh, John Ross didn't do anything, Darius Hayward Bay didn't do anything.
Henry Ruggs didn't do anything. Allthese guys that lit the combine on fire
with their straight line speed that isnot Exavier Worthy. Xavier Worthy is tanked
Dell with afterburners. This guy runsevery single route on the tree. Yeah,
he's got drops. You know whoelse has a lot of drops.
Dk Metcalf, you know else hasa lot of drops. Deontay Johnson.

(51:00):
Drops are reflective of targets earned.These guys have been in the same offense
for multiple years with the same quarterback, and that quarterback has chosen to throw
targets to Xavier Worthy at twice thefrequency that he's chosen to throw targets to
add n I Mitchell. And there'sa reason for that is because you can

(51:22):
count on full effort from Xavier Worthyevery single play. This is a guy
who can win short, he's aguy who can win intermediate, and he's
a guy that can beat you deep. Literally, no one in combine history
has run faster than he did.This is a complete player. Now my
issue like, look, I getthe siren song of a night Mitchell,

(51:44):
and he's tall, and he's big, and he's fast, and he's a
touchdown maker and we love all ofthat stuff. The number one indicator of
NFL production at wide receiver is collegeproduction. Nine Mitchell, outside of touchdowns,
doesn't have it. His career yardsper route run are the lowest,

(52:05):
assuming he goes in the first round, will be the lowest of any first
round wide receiver ever since they startedtracking in twenty eleven, thirteen years of
data. Fourteen years of data.No wide receiver taken in the first round,
because I think it is approaching fiftyat this point, has had a
lower yards per route run than adNi Mitchell. This is a guy who

(52:28):
takes plays off, who has frustratedhis coaches. If he's not the first
read, he ain't trying. Andyou're telling me he's just gonna flip that
switch all of a sudden when hegets to the NFL. You're telling me
you're just gonna count on this guyto score touchdowns. Scoring touchdowns the NFL
is really freaking tough to do,and they're not just gonna be there because
you're the number five team in thecountry and you're only playing two or three

(52:51):
tough games a year. Now,you're right, he's scored touchdowns on those
tough games. He hasn't put upa lot of production in those games.
He is not who his quarterback islooking for. There is nothing in to
me that that's all of a suddengoing to change at the highest level of
professional football. Now, look,if he goes to the Bills or the
Jaguars of the Chiefs and Xavier Worthygoes to the Panthers. Yes, I
will bet that Adni Mitchell is amore productive receiver in the first couple of

(53:15):
seasons, But if they both goto similar situations, I'm taking Worthy every
single time. I want the guythat earns targets. The number one talent
that a wide receiver can have,in my opinion, is the ability to
earn his quarterbacks targets, and XavierWorthy doubled up Mitchell in that regard.

(53:35):
I am taking him nine times outof ten, and the only time that
I'm not taking him over Mitchell ispurely situation based. And Mike, I'm
glad you brought up the type onediabetes thing. One of my best friends
has it, my wife's best friend'sdaughter has it. And look, it
is a lifestyle thing. It issomething that you need to manage, and
by all accounts, he's not managingit. And if you have a health

(53:59):
marker that is is this obvious tosomebody and they are not taking the effort
to make sure that they're taking careof their body in a special way to
be ready every single day to succeedat a high level and give him mine
his production in college fall. Thisis not high level production. These are

(54:19):
high level attributes. And if heis not taking care of his body in
the way that he needs to dealwith the type one diabetes to be a
high level college producer, I donot want to task my wide receiver room.
I do not want to task mycoaching staff with having to monitor this
guy and make sure that he's constantlytrying to reach his potential or that he's

(54:42):
even providing his body with the necessarytools to reach a baseline of NFL production.
Give me Xavier Worthy all day long. If I'm a team and I've
got these two guys on my draftboard as the top two, I'm taking
Worthy. So that's the Worthy side. Y'all got the Mitchell side. The
NFL is going to tell us whichone of us is right. It's reasonable.

(55:04):
And one last thing I'll add,you know, I'm glad that you
brought up the Siren song, becauseyeah, I mean, the Mitchell thing
is a traits thing, right,Like he's an absolute monster without the consistency.
I'll just say this, if thebill's struck on, Josh Allen,
why not roll the dice again?Baby? Come totally. I get it.
And that's and that is the thingis you are betting on the outlier

(55:27):
because he is an outlier physically,and if you get him in the right
situation and you get him to lockin and handle his business, Yes,
I think if I'm taking the topfive percent outcome of ad Ni Mitchell versus
the top five percent outcome of XavierWorthy, I'm taking ad Ni Mitchell.
The other ninety five percent of thoseoutcomes, I'm taken Worthy. So we're

(55:50):
going to see, and I thinkthat's going to be a really interesting thing
to circle back to in a year, two years, even three years from
now and see how those guys aredoing. But yeah, lines are drawn,
gonna have words, Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Now I do
want to I do want to talkabout the rest of the guys that I
have in this tier, and andI'm just gonna run the names back and

(56:12):
then chuck you just you just talkto me about the guys that that pop
out to you. Whatever thoughts uhjump into your head as I read through
these names. We've got Lad McConkeyagain out of Georgia, Troy Franklin from
Oregon, Keon Coleman from Florida State, Xavier Lagette from South Carolina, Roman
Wilson from Michigan, Ricky Piersoll fromFlorida, and the two Jalens from you
Polk and McMillan. Well, theone I think is going to have the

(56:35):
best career is Ricky Piersoll out ofFlorida. I think he's incredibly skilled and
you know, and you know,sneaky athletic, the forty, the vert
everything checked out at the combine,and he has ridiculous playmaking abilities. So
I actually think statistically he's going togo on of that group and have the

(57:00):
best career out of all of them. Let's see. Uh oh, that
list, I didn't write it alldown. Who is the second guy that
you mentioned? Uh? We hadwe had Troy Franklin. Troy Franklin was
is on the other side, andhe was very productive in college, so
I don't want to pick on him. But in this draft process, I

(57:22):
mean, we're not gonna I'm notgoing to weigh the NFL combine for good
or bad with too much weight.But he looked absolutely lost. He looked
like he couldn't follow a direction likeeverybody else was doing it. And Franklin
couldn't run a straight line, couldn'tfollow any of the skills that they were

(57:43):
the the you know, the theexercises that they were laying in front of
people. I mean, he justhe looked lost out there. Troy Franklin.
Yeah, mechanics, it's just athleticismand vibes. He doesn't seem to
be falling as a matter of factor. Recently. I think he's been rising
in the draft. But that wasa little concerning to me. But yeah,

(58:07):
I mean he's going to get draftedI think day two, probably round
two. And that list that youlisted off, I mean that's normally some
guys that are going to be consideredin the first round, but not with
this year's class, well, thoseare second crazy round picks. Because of
how much talent is out there atthe skill It kind of makes you wish

(58:27):
that the Seahawks weren't so said atwide receiver, you know, I mean,
you don't really get to play inthis sandbox. There's only three receivers
in this draft that I like betterthan than Seattle has, and obviously none
of them will be there for Seattle. I'm taking Jackson Smith and Jagbo over
everyone beyond the top three. Yeah, well, I certainly need to see

(58:49):
more. He seemed to be blamingthat on Shane Waldron last year. So
I am I am looking forward toseeing him with a different kind of scheme
this year, because I mean,you think back to training camp a year
ago, and he was the talkof camp, and there didn't seem to

(59:10):
be anything he couldn't do, andthen he just looked so he looked used
in such a simple way a yearago. So I'm looking forward to seeing
him broaden his horizons this year.Yeah. Well, and I mean just
zooming back in on the Seahawks here, I mean, I think Jackson Smith
and jig but is the fulcrum forthis offense. I think that this offense

(59:36):
last year was using thirty percent ofwhat he could do and and and I
think there is so much else outthere. You could just feel it from
him, you know, that islike just turn me loose and look.
The guy had two game winning touchdownsin the final minute this year, like
game on the line, Gino Smithand Drew Locke went to Jackson Smith and

(01:00:00):
Jigba against the Browns and the Eagles, and he came through with game winners.
He I think he's I think he'sthat guy. But yeah, that's
gonna be really interesting to see.You know, I think that some of
these guys in this draft, andkeep in mind we're talking like, oh,
you know Jackson Smith and Jigba,you know, is so disappointing.
Well, yeah, sure, youtook him at twenty. Overall, you'd

(01:00:22):
love to see some more stats.How many third wide receivers ever, especially
his rookies had sixty three catches,right, I mean, this is a
guy that was doing the most thathe could with the lowest average depth of
target in the NFL. That's nota Jackson Smith and Jigba indictment. That's
a Shane Waldron and a Seahawks offensiveline indictment. But some of the other

(01:00:45):
guys that really stand out to methat I'm super interested in. I think
Keon Coleman is probably outside of AdrianMitchell. I think he's the biggest lightning
rod guy. He's someone that heran a four city you know, this
is a guy who was fringing ChrisCollinsworth. Here's a guy. This is
someone that he has this reputation asfreak athlete, right, I mean he

(01:01:07):
he played basketball for Tom Izzo atMichigan State and then transferred to Florida State
and was there punp returner at sixfoot four. I mean, he is
the ultimate. The tape is differentthan the analytics. Right, he wasn't
even the best receiver again like adNi Mitchell at Texas. He wasn't even

(01:01:27):
the most productive receiver at Florida State. Johnny Wilson was. But when you
look at the talent, I mean, I'm what I see when I see
Kean Coleman is Cordero Patterson just abig, strong dude who is great with
the ball in his hands, butis completely unrefined. I think that he's
one of those guys where right situation, he could be an absolute supernova in

(01:01:51):
the NFL, because you know,he ran the four to six at the
combine. Now it's like, oh, what the hell's going on here?
I thought this guy was supposed tobe fast. And then they do that
gauntlet drill, the one that TroyFranklin flunked so badly where you got to
run a straight line and catch sixballs turning one way and then you turn
the other way and you're catching allthis Well, look they're timing that too,

(01:02:13):
and no player had a higher topspeed during that drill and This boy
kept his line the whole way through. He had the fastest speed running that
Gaunlet drill. So I think thisis a true game day player. I'm
really curious to see where he goes. Xavier Lagett super interesting in that he
was a five year player in college, did nothing. I think his top

(01:02:35):
season was like four hundred and thirtyyards in his first four years. He
goes to South Carolina becomes Spencer Rattlersjust dropped back, where's Legett? I'm
throwing it to him. All ofa sudden he explodes monster season his final
year at South Carolina. Saw aninterview with him. We talked about this,
I think last week where he waslike, well, he was asked,
what was a turning point? Howcome you didn't do anything for four

(01:02:58):
years and all of a sudden youwere so good in year five? You
said, I looked at DK metcalfand decided to model my game after him.
I think he's going to be superinteresting. I'm with you. Of
all the guys in this group,Ricky Piersoll is my well Latin McConkie,
Xavier Worthy probably a tear break withthose two. But of the next group,
I think Ricky Piersall is just aguy that one of the things that

(01:03:19):
I like, if you don't haveall of the crazy physical measurements as a
wide receiver, the number one thingI'm looking for for you from you is
can you win a game of tag? And you ain't ever catching Ricky Piersoll
in a game of tag? Andwe saw he ran a four to four
each on forty two inches. Ithink he had the highest vert and longest

(01:03:39):
broad of any of the wide receivers. Super explosive. He's got a terrible
bet on me tattoo, which isexactly what I want to see from my
wide receivers. Like, that's whatI'm talking about right there. Ricky Piersoll
out of Florida is going to makea team really really happy. On day
two, what the hell happened tothe Herm Edwards Arizona State Sun Devil.
Oh my gosh and Ricky Pearsall werenot good together. I know it,

(01:04:02):
I know it, man. Itis. It is so nuts how much
talent they had there and how badthey were. Yeah, man, I
tell you what, there's gonna beteams picking in the seventies and eighties getting
wide receivers that would be going inthe thirties and forties in most years.
And I don't think the Seahawks aregoing to be in the wide receiver game.
With Rob rang today on the radioshow, and we did our Seahawks

(01:04:28):
mocks and so we mocked them allthe way through picks around seven, and
I did not have them taking awide receiver. Normally you do have you
know, you just grab a widereceiver because you it's a very deep room.
But I do have them taking twotight ends, which is something that
you know, you know, sincewe're talking about pass catchers. I think

(01:04:49):
Jack Westover is a better version ofJacob Hollister, who Schneider really liked once
upon a time. And then EricAll from Iowa. Another Iowa tight end
is somebody that ever worked out foranybody? What an Iowa tight end?

(01:05:11):
Tight end? Oh yeah, that'sa dead end, right, yeah,
yeah, exactly exactly. But butI think maybe they're gonna have I think
there's a pretty good chance they're takingat least they're taking one tight end.
I think they could take two.And maybe it's not a wide receiver year
for the Seahawks, but you gottabe tempted. You got to consider it

(01:05:32):
because of how deep the class is. And that was one thing that Rob
pointed out. I'm not going tocome out of this without giving the Seahawks
one of these wide receivers this year, even though the guy he gave him
was really just like a punt returnspecialist. So you know, it's great
to have depth of wide receiver.But then you kind of sit there as

(01:05:53):
the draft's gonna go by, You'regonna see all these quality players getting taken
and it might not be where theSeahawks have any need whatsoever. Yeah,
you know, there's there's three otherguys that I think are have a chance.
They're like late day two, maybeDay three picks. If look everyone's
oh, who's the next Pook inNicula? There's not a next Pook in

(01:06:14):
Nakula. But there there will beDay three pass catchers that a year from
now are like, how did theylast that long? And the three that
I kind of have circled our JavonBaker out of Central Florida, Johnny Wilson
out of Florida State, and MilikWashington from Virginia. And to your point,
yeah, Seattle probably doesn't need toadd to their wide receiver room,
because I think Jake Bobo is oneof Like, if I think he's a

(01:06:38):
very good wide receiver, and ifhe's your number four, I don't think
you need to manage. And you'veadded Chanolt and you've added Claypool, like,
I don't think that you need togo chasing a wide receiver in this
draft with with needs elsewhere. AndI think early in the draft you take
best player available, but I thinkyou get to late day two and beyond
now you do have to draft forneed, and whatever needs you still have

(01:07:00):
after free agency are real needs.But I think tight end is one of
them. We have no fan andnothing else. There's a lot of talk
about Johnny Wilson from Florida State beinga tight end at the next level,
and I would love him in Seattle. Yeah, sixty six. I think
he was six seven, two thirtyeight at the combine. Officially, I
mean we're talking about big, big, big boy and having him as the

(01:07:24):
number two, especially in short yardageand goal line sets as a touchdown option
or a first down option. Ithink is really really interesting. So look,
man, I mean we could talkabout wide receivers for two hours.
There's a half a dozen guys,I wish we had time to talk about.
But here's the thing. You andI we've been talking for two months,

(01:07:44):
damn near about what we think onthe draft. And that's great because
we are great. I'm great,You're great. It's important people hear what
we have to say. But onething we've learned on this show is there's
a lot of wisdom in this crowd, and so we elicited some questions as
we head into the end of ourlast episode of the Whitewater Drafting series.

(01:08:05):
Prior to the draft, we solicitedsome questions from people listening and Mike,
you've got a few that you wantto talk about on area. Yeah,
sure do. All right. Wegot this question from a couple people,
both from Tom le Duf Fromage andfrom Cindy Shell. They both ask who
is a player that if they areavailable at sixteen for Seattle, that you're

(01:08:29):
not taking any calls on that,you're just pulling the trigger on no questions
asked who, who's a player?I'm doing that, Well, I'm doing
Michael Pennox Junior. I'm taking him. That's big man. I'm taking him
if he's there at sixteen. Look, I don't hate it. Everyone listening
knows how much I like Michael PennockJunior, and I think that he represents

(01:08:53):
the perfect crossroads of do you takethe best player available? Do you take
a position to need. I donot considered quarterback a position need. I
see no reason Gino Smith cannot continueto be a top ten to top fourteen
quarterback in the NFL for the nexttwo to three years. But if you
really believe in Michael Pennox, youhave the opportunity to save that money and

(01:09:15):
to get that real salary cap deltaat the highest paid position in sports.
If you think he's that guy.If Seattle took him at sixteen, I
would talk myself into it pretty quickly. I would take him. I don't
think they will. I think hecould be there at sixteen and they're still
going to move back from that selection. I think the guy that they might

(01:09:38):
be tempted to keep legitimately that couldbe around as Byron Murphy, because I
think there will be some real curiosity. I mean, we still don't know
how Mike McDonald's going to flavor thisSeahawk draft process. This will be our
first taste of it. So anI kind of had an idea. I
think I'd learned how Pete and Johndrafted, but you know, there's going

(01:10:02):
to be a new wrinkle to thisthis year, and so is Murphy exactly
the kind of guy that he mightwant to build around. I think a
brock Bowers is there, they takehim, even though you know, maybe
don't put that as the number oneneed for this team. But I think
there's a scenario, and this isthe draft. I mean, there are

(01:10:24):
a couple of guys. I promiseyou that if they're on the board,
John Schneider's not going to trade down. But I think realistically, I'm ninety
seven percent sure that this is goingto be a trade down move from sixteen.
Yeah, you know, do yougive my answer to that question?
There is one player that if he'sstill there, that I think, like

(01:10:44):
realistically could still be there where ifI'm John Schneider, I'm turning my phone
off and sprinting to the podium,and that is brock Bowers. I think
brock Bauers is the top six,top seven player in this draft. I
think whoever ends up with them isgoing to have just a locked in Pro
Bowl caliber player and his best seasonsare going to be all Pro caliber at

(01:11:06):
an important position in the NFL.That's the one guy. Short answer,
Brock Bowers, I'm not considering thetrade down. I am. I can't
believe I agree with that, butI'll take him. There's a handful of
other players I'd be really happy totake you mentioned Byron Murphy. I think
Quinon Mitchell is the best defensive playerin this draft. If they if they

(01:11:29):
just want to go overboard on corner, I'm good with that. Leatu Latu
is in that conversation. I'd besuper happy with Johnny Newton, Troy Fatanu
obviously has been my guy all theway through this series. Be super happy
with any of those dudes at sixteen. But the only one where I'm saying
this guy is still here. I'mnot taking any calls. Get to that

(01:11:51):
podium as fast as you can.It's brock Bowers. I like it all
right. Next question from Bobovette atLargin's Burner, Bobo asks Jackson, what
cigars do you have lined up forthis weekend? Funny you ask, Bobo
fed So, as we mentioned atthe top of this show, we got

(01:12:13):
a new line of cigar Thoughts cigarscoming out and this is not just oh
hey, we're so happy to havethis blend. The Red Zone cigars have
been personally selected by yours truly,out of about nine different blends of cigars,
what one do I want to putmy name on? It's going to
be that. But if we're goingoutside of the Cigar Thoughts range and look

(01:12:34):
dollar for dollar, you're just notgoing to beat the Red Zone cigars or
the Cigar Thoughts originals. And it'sjust true. I mean, these are
cigars itself forty bucks a pop,and you can get them for less than
fifteen bucks. But if we're goingto go outside of those two, it's
the draft. This is this iswhere I get real freaky. This is

(01:12:54):
where I reached it. So Igot I got two different humidors at home,
So most of my cigars they're inmy lard bags. They got the
Bavida humidification pack. They're just sittingin these giant gallon bags, and they're
fine. I got room for fiftycigars in my two humidors, and one
of them I keep my Cigar Thoughtscigars. In the other I keep the

(01:13:16):
real special ones. So I gota nineteen forty six anniversary Padrone that I
will be smoking that's been aged fortwenty years. One one a box of
those in a poker tournament. I'mgonna bust one of those out for the
first round. I'm gonna be smokingthe cigar thoughts cigars throughout the draft,
and then I am pulling out myfinal year the Rooster Zodiac series from David

(01:13:42):
Off. I've been saving this onewondering what the occasion is gonna be.
That's gonna be my day two smokefor the draft this year. God,
you are a cigo. You gottaah. Yes, he's given that more
thought than Schneider's given the draft.Oh, I got my lineup, baby,
I have my I have my bigboard of stogies at home. What

(01:14:06):
cigar are you trading out of?Sixteen? Okay? Last question comes in
from Bijeritron, five thousand loyal listeners. Bijer Tron asks, and this is
this is interesting. Mentions that theykeep seeing a trade floated for the third
overall pick from New England for Seattle'sfirst this year, their first next year,

(01:14:28):
and DK metcalf So a move ofthat magnitude up the draft board would
have to be for quarterback. Ithink we're all in agreement. YEA.
If Jaden Daniels or Drake may areavailable at number three and the Seahawks can
pull the trigger on that trade,what either of you guys do it?
I'm going to say no? Mightstsay no? You know I again,

(01:14:53):
I'm going to go back to,like the first conversation we had in Whitewater
drafting, why is there such adearth between Jaden Daniels and Michael Pennox Junior.
So I don't put really, Idon't put. Okay, I'll put
Daniels ahead of Pennix, I suppose. But if I can pick at sixteen

(01:15:15):
or move up, if I reallywanted to have a quarterback, I'd move
up to like twelve, get aheadof Vegas, and then maybe potentially get
Michael Pennix versus giving up a lotof draft capitals to get from sixteen to
three and have to part with awide receiver who I still don't think we've
tapped into his full capabilities. SoI'm gonna say no to that trade.

(01:15:41):
If it was for Caleb Williams allthe way up to number one, maybe
I consider that, But I'm notdoing it because I don't think there's that
big of a difference between Pennix andmay Or Daniels. Yeah, there's only
one player I would even consider makingthat trade for it. It is Caleb
Williams. After that look, andI want to give a shout out to

(01:16:06):
b Jertron because it's a good question, and I don't mean to be dismissive
of it. You don't get betterby trading the best player on your team.
And there's a really strong argument tobe made that the best player on
your team is a six' fourtwo and thirty three pound, twenty six

(01:16:28):
year old wide receiver with orderline Olympicspeed that has a proven track record of
NFL production. You want to lookat the number of wide receivers that have
put out the type of numbers inthe first five years that DK metcalf has.
You're talking about single digits. Ever, you are not making life easier

(01:16:50):
for this next quarterback by taking awayhis best teammate and by taking away two
future first round opportunities to make thingsbetter around him. The best thing that
you can do for your quarterback isto furnish the house that he's going to
move into. We've seen Chicago doit. That is the blueprint, and

(01:17:12):
there is not a quarterback outside ofCaleb Williams that I think that you sell
all of your furniture for in orderto get so. No, I would
not do that. I would beI would be a pretty sullen dude if
they made that trade. I'm notinto it. Yep. All right,
So here's here's the deal. We'vebeen going at this for almost two months
now, and look, I havejust enjoyed the hell out of Whitewater drafting.

(01:17:39):
I almost kicked myself for it takingthis long. And a big shout
out to Chuck because he's the onethat put this in motion. He's the
one that reached out and said,hey, we we should do this,
and I am so glad that wedid. But now we've only got a
couple days left before the draft.And so, Chuck, if there was
one thought that you could leave thelisteners with before we entered the pageantry,

(01:18:02):
the festivity and the Christmas morning ofdraft day, what if the one thing
you want listeners to take away,Oh boy, I think it's just the
uh, you know, I don'twant to get sappy. I don't want
to make Mike cry at this stage, you know. Yeah, But it's

(01:18:24):
just, uh, you know,there's still people that roll their eyes at
this process. Some people call ita crap shoot. Boy. I can't
stand hearing that, because I thinkgeneral managers across the National Football League would
be offended to think that the mostimportant day of their lives every year was
just a crap shoot. I thinkthis is what separates the great teams from

(01:18:46):
the bad teams. And there isa reason why there's not as much parody
in a league that has a salarycap versus Major League Baseball that doesn't.
And yet there are there's a greatvariety of teams that make the Baseball playoffs
than make the NFL playoffs, andit's because the ones that do this job

(01:19:09):
well the three days that we haveThursday, Friday, and Saturday typically make
the playoffs all the time. Andso this is a huge process. I
don't ever want to see it tosee it go away. This is what
separates the bad from the good teamsin the National Football League and probably is

(01:19:30):
what Seattle has struggled with in thelast year. Is probably why they haven't
been a dominant force. They haven'tdrafted as well as they once did when
they nearly built a dynasty about tenyears ago. So I love to see
John Schneider and Mike McDonald get onthe same page. I want to see
the Seahawks get back to drafting beautifullylike they did a decade ago. And

(01:19:56):
this is where you build your championship. It's on these three days. It's
not a crapshoot. It's the lifebloodof the National Football League. Yeah,
you know, I actually love thattake because my one takeaway is the flip
side of that coin. And Idon't think that you're wrong. I think
that the greatest ability to maximize amarket inefficiency in the NFL is nailing a

(01:20:20):
draft. I think it's way harderthan most of us actually think that it
is. Here's my one takeaway.The people that are paid millions of dollars
to do this, the people whoare supposedly the best in the world,
that employ teams of scouts and analyststhat are working eighty hours a week leading

(01:20:43):
up to this process, get itwrong. All the time. You are
projecting twenty twenty one to twenty twoyear olds how they're going to handle millions
of dollars and fame and attention anda demand on their time and their attention
and their work ethic and their healththat they have never encountered before, even

(01:21:04):
at these top end Division one schools. And so my main takeaway is it
is a little bit of a crapshoot. And we saw John Schneider have arguably
the greatest three year run in draftinghistory from twenty ten to twenty twelve in
terms of AAV, which essentially isa metric design to show production over replacement

(01:21:32):
levels. It's NFL's war stat tomake the baseball comparison. Ten through twenty
twelve, no team in history hashad a higher AAV for their drafts than
the Seahawks did. And they completelyshit the bed for like five years after
that. And I don't believe thatthey just changed their process. That the

(01:21:55):
NFL landscape is constantly shifting sand andsomething that worked even three years ago doesn't
necessarily work now. And the NFLfigured out Seattle's leadson to boom defense and
how to beat that cover three evenwith Hall of Fame talent, and you
saw so many NFL teams adapt thatapproach to big corners and a free ranging

(01:22:17):
safety and a hard hitting strong safetyand all of these things. And look,
Seattle never really figured out how toCounterPunch. Now, I think they've
drafted really well the last two years. They also had a lot of draft
capital to do that. Most ofthe time, your team has one pick
each round, and those first threerounds. Look, here's the thing but

(01:22:42):
I talk about. I think Ican explain that away though, because I
think they did have something flawed philosophically. They were trying to dopple gang their
drafts, those three ridiculously successful ones. They were trying to find the next
Richard Sherman. They were trying tofind the next Michael Bennett. And they

(01:23:04):
were drafting people that were built likethem, had forty times like them,
and physically reminded them of them.Richard Sherman was special, not because of
his height and his forty time.Richard Sherman was special because there wasn't anybody
that was as tenacious and as skilledand as instinctive at the cornerback position in

(01:23:26):
the history of this franchise. AndI think you could say Michael Bennett.
I mean, how many times didthey try to replace him with somebody physically
like him? Michael Bennett. Thereagain, there were these just traits about
him. So I think that's whatwent wrong. They tried repeating all the
successes they did by trying to draftguys that mimicked the physical traits of the

(01:23:49):
ones before them, and they lostout on what it was that made those
guys special. I think that's wherethey kind of lost their way a little
bit, and that's why they haven'tbeen as successful drafting in the last few
years, which is exactly my point. Yeah, NFL teams have to be
constantly adjusting. Yeah, the Seahawksbuilt The Seahawks built that team because they

(01:24:14):
started boxing lefty against the NFL andthen the NFL figured that out and they
didn't have a CounterPunch to that.And the thing is, like your draft,
Yeah, sure, we would lovefor every player that your favorite team
drafts this year to make an immediateimpact. That's not a realistic expectation.
You should judge draft classes two years, three years, four years down the

(01:24:38):
road. True, and by thetime you're doing that, the NFL landscape
has shifted. Look no further thanlast year, where you saw points come
down by three points a game,you saw yards come down by forty yards
a game. The NFL changed becausepeople realized the most successful offenses were living

(01:24:59):
and dying off of explosive plays,and so they shifted to a defensive structure
that takes that away. And wesaw, I mean, this is the
genius of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. They lose Tyreek Hill, who might
be the best wide receiver on theplanet, and they just justice said,
Okay, well just start throwing itshorter. But we're going to build an
offense that does that. They pivoted, Right, We've seen the Ravens pivot.

(01:25:21):
We've seen the Steelers pivot. Theseteams that are in the playoffs every
single year. At the Packers,they pivot. The Packers team now that
damn near beat the forty nine Ersthat were this close to being a super
Bowl team with the youngest roster inthe NFL pivoted. Yeah, whatever your
assumption about what your team needs todo in the draft because of how the

(01:25:45):
NFL looks, I am just beggingthe people listening to understand that in two
years, what's going to win inthe NFL is probably going to look different
than what won last year. Andthat is the hardest thing. So give
your team a little bit ofg AndI'm just asking the listeners to take a
three year mindset to some of thesedraft picks. I mentioned Davante Adams earlier

(01:26:06):
as a comp for Roma Dunza.Chuck, you agreed he was your comp
for Roma Dunza. Davante Adams didn'tdo shit for two years, right,
Like, there's a lot of peoplewriting him off as a waste of a
second round pick, and then hespent five years being arguably the best wide
receiver in the NFL. So justmy one big takeaway is give yourself and

(01:26:29):
give your favorite team some grace.View this through a three year lens.
Yeah, well, I think it'skind of strange because I think you argued
that my point was making your point. I would argue your point is making
my point because you're right, andthe great general managers see how the league
is changing and adapt their drafts accordingly. Ozzy Newsom was never caught off guard.

(01:26:51):
Ozzie Newsom was always ahead of thecurve, and there are a couple
special ones like that. I thinkJohn is very good at this, but
he hasn't been as good lately,and I think it's because he was trying
to recreate what worked ten years agoversus seeing what was going to work next
MM hmm yeah, yeah, soI completely agree with that. It's been

(01:27:14):
a blast, gentlemen. Oh man, this is this has been one of
the most fun stretches we've ever haddoing this podcast. Man. And look
that's going to do it for thefinal episode of Whitewater Drafting. Thank you
again to Chuck Powell. Look,Chuck, you made this happen. Man,
Thank you so much for putting thisin motion. Well I put it
in motion, but you guys madeit happen. I give you guys all

(01:27:35):
the credit. Thank you very muchfor everything that you did with this and
and we'll make it even bigger andbetter next year. Hey, amen to
that. Okay, friends, youcan find Mike, Chuck and I on
social media. I am on Twitterat at Jackson Bevans. That's jac Son.

(01:27:55):
Remember that no K is okay whenspelling my name. Chuck is at
Chuck Powell, Kjar, Mike isthat at Mike Barwin, and the show
itself is at Cigar Thoughts. Youcan catch full video episodes on our YouTube
channel at Cigar Thoughts and find therest of our socials at Cigar thoughtsfl dot
com. And listen to Chuck everyweekday morning on KJR Sports Talk Radio ninety

(01:28:16):
three point three FM starting at tenam. This episode is brought to you
by Balvenny premium single Malt Scotch Whiskey. I've long been a huge fan of
their lineup and we are thrilled tohave them on board as a sponsor of
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their fifteen year Madeira cask, whichhas yet another excellent bottle from Balvenni.

(01:28:41):
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(01:30:06):
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(01:30:29):
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