Billy Corgan

In the 30-plus years since Billy Corgan hit it big as the lead singer/songwriter of The Smashing Pumpkins, he’s become many things including the owner of the National Wrestling Alliance, a father and a husband, and an outspoken advocate of free speech through appearances on divisive podcasts hosted by Alex Jones, Joe Rogan, and Bill Maher.

Proving to be both eloquent and controversial, Billy is now hosting his own long form interview podcast called "The Magnificent Others" where he interviews music industry heavyweights like Tom Morello, Sharon Osbourne, and Gene Simmons.

On today’s episode Leah Rose talks to Billy Corgan about his approach to interviewing, why he rejected the alternative-music ethos in the 90s, and the subset of his fanbase that he calls “Siamese zombies.”

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Billy Corgan HERE.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
In the thirty plus years since Billy Corgan hit it
big as the lead singer songwriter of the Smashing Pumpkins,
He's become many things. The owner of the National Wrestling
Alliance NWA, a father and a husband, and an outspoken
advocate of free speech through appearances on divisive podcasts hosted
by Alex Jones, Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, proving to

(00:40):
be both eloquent and controversial. Corgan is now hosting his
own long form interview podcast called The Magnificent Others, where
he interviews music industry heavyweights like Tom Morello, Sharon Osbourne,
and Gene Simmons. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to
Billy Corgan about his approach to interviewing, why he rejected
the alternative music ethos in the nineties, and the subset
of his fan base that he calls Siamese zombies. This

(01:07):
is broken Record musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose with
Billy Corgan. You can see the full video of this
interview on our YouTube page YouTube dot com slash Broken
Record Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
So I was thinking about this is actually a really
exciting time to talk to you because I'm super interested
about your approach to your podcast, and it's especially interesting
for me because this is actually something I can relate to.
And you know, I feel like when I talk to musicians,

(01:46):
I find what they do absolutely extraordinary because I cannot
do any of it. But this I can sort of, like,
you know, sort of understand how you might be feeling
around these things. So I'm really curious about your approach
to interviewing because you've been interviewed for over thirty years now,
So when you decided to take on this project, how

(02:07):
did you approach it?

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well, I think the simplest version is I just try
to have the same type of conversation I would have
with somebody behind the scenes, and of course you're where
there's a camera and you're of course you're ware of
the concept of time. But I've seen in some comments.
I don't really read comments, but people will send me

(02:33):
things and you get a sense of what's happening. The
people who do like the format that the show is
in appreciate that it has a deeper dive sort of feel,
which I would point to That's the kind of conversation
I would have with a Diane Warren if we were
sitting privately somewhere I would be asking the same types
of questions with the same type of kind of back

(02:54):
and forth thing. For people who don't understand it, they
seem to be confused that I'm just after what would
be called a normal interview format where some of his
erudite you asked me a question. I just bloviate on
for four minutes, and some people take the back and
forth patois the thing is disrespect. It's the complete opposite.

(03:17):
I really feel that there's so much that gets lost
in the translation of conversation because I've been interviewed for
thirty five years now that I'm really after something that's
almost indefinable. And that's not to say I'm better at
it than anybody else. In fact, I'm not very skilled
at it at all. But I have an intuitive sense

(03:37):
of the way an artist mind works, Yes, even if
it's not mine, and that's born out over now over
I think twenty five interviews, there's a commonality in the
sense of an inner and an outer experience most interviews,
and it's no disrespect to you or anybody else. They

(03:58):
focus on the outer experience because that's the thing that's
readily apparent it's sort of in evidence. The inner life
of an artist is oft less explode but is the
thing that I find utterly fascinating. For example, on this
interview that I just did with Diane Warren and for
people don't know, one of the greatest songwriters ever, nine

(04:21):
number one hit songs, thirty three top ten songs, and
the list of people who've recorded her songs, I mean
is a who's who are the greatest vocalists of all time.
It's really a stunning set of accomplishments. And yet if
you look at the interview record, there's not a lot
about this woman's interior life.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yes, and her interior life is what's fueling her songwriting.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
It's everything. Because she would tell you, as a personality
in the world that there's nothing particularly remarkable about her,
I think utterly remarkable. But she even sort of downplays
who she is. But yet the evidence, which is in
plain sight, fifteen hundred songs in counting, and by the way,
no sign of letting up. She oh no, heeddle to

(05:06):
the metal as an artist in in residence. Yeah, I'm like,
give me even just a kernel of what goes on
in there that allows this diamond mind of your spirit
to continually produce works that are not only at the
top of their particular field, but speak universally yes in

(05:32):
a way that I've rarely approached as an artist. That's fascinating.
I could do nineteen hours on that. I mean, it
would bore the hell out of the audience and it
would probably bore the hell out of Diane. For me,
this is everything.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Do you think as an interviewer. I've heard Terry Gross
talk about this that in every interview she does, she's
motivated by learning something new about herself. Do you find
that through these conversations you're trying to learn about yourself
or are you truly trying to learn about that specific person,
The person in front of you's inner life and you

(06:12):
know their creative process.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
One of my great weaknesses is I like to be right.
It's probably my greatest weakness. So much of the interview
is me trying to confirm of whether my internal assumptions
about a set of things is accurate. But the charm
there because I'm I'm okay with being wrong, because in
this case I have the subject right in front of

(06:36):
me to tell me, no, you're wrong, you got that
totally wrong. It's like, okay, great, because I really do
want to know that that is the supreme effort is knowledge.
If anybody knows enneagrams, I'm a five and fives are
all about collecting information. That's how we feel safe in
the world. So the more I can kind of confirm
my worldview, and in this case with you know, people

(06:59):
of world class talent and ability or life story in
a weird kind of way, it confirms that my read
on the world is actually fairly accurate. And as an
artist type, I've been told my whole life that my
perspective on the world is either wrong, overly dramatic, overwrought,
you know, just calm down and just kind of get

(07:21):
in line type of stuff. But I think has been
born out over the last twenty or thirty years with
social media that people's interior lives are actually a lot
more complex than we would have previously thought in prior societies.
I mean, there was always indication of it, and of
course what people would read, whether it would be Hemiway
or Dickens or you know, Jane Austen or something. You know,

(07:43):
there's obviously rich interior lives, but now it lives on
continual display Yeah, and maybe we're entering in age now
and you know, maybe you know the Age of Aquarius
or something, but we're entering an age now where maybe
there's going to be more introspection on people's actual internal
lives or interior lives and how they actually play into

(08:03):
their behavior.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
That would be nice, I would hope, because I would skeptical,
but that would be nice.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Well, God blessed, But I would like to make the
simple argument that the more people's interior lives are readily
available to them, the less violent a planet we would
live on.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah. Have you had the experience yet of someone who
cannot be drawn out, someone who doesn't know how to
explain their inner life, someone who, I know a lot
of artists express their inner lives through their art. Have
you had and you're very eloquent, and you're very eloquent

(08:41):
about your creative process. Have you sat across from someone
who just does not know how to explain it?

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah? And I think that's totally fine, because at the
end of the day, their perspective trump's mind. I'm really
in service to tell their story, and that's where people
misunderstand what I'm after. I asked a friend of mine
who knows me pretty well. Do you think I'm talking
too much? Or you think I'm talking too much about myself?
And they said, no, No, that's how you are in life,

(09:09):
and what you do is you create kind of commonality.
And what you're doing is you're sharing because you're trying
to say I think I understand is what I'm sharing
relate to what you're saying. That made me feel better
about it, because at times it does feel to me
like I'm talking too much, but I'm really after this
interior life. Like I said, I find it utterly fascinating.

(09:30):
And let's use Diane Warren as an example. Diane says
in the interview, like I don't really think about a
lot of the steps that you're asking me. Yeah, but
there were about two or three instances in the interview,
which is about an hour long, where she initially kind
of gives me an answer which says I don't really
think about that or that's not really I say something,
and then she goes, oh, and then she'll give me

(09:52):
something that wasn't previously there. To me, that's the AGA
pay moment of like, Okay, that's exactly what I'm after.
I'm not asking somebody who doesn't really know me in
the case Diane, we had met before. But I'm not
asking someone to walk into a st and throw open
the door to everything. I don't I think that's really fair.

(10:13):
But if they're willing to just crack that door open
a little bit here and there, I think. I know
I gained such immense respect for artists that I already admire. Yes,
because the ability to look and see that beautiful engine.
And I know not everybody believes in God, but as
somebody who does believe in God, I'm oftentimes taken with

(10:35):
the magisterial aspect of the human soul and how different
every soul on this planet is. That I would include
that even into our pets, which is even feels like
a like an unfair word. You know, in our house
we have three cats and a dog and two fish.
And if you spend any time with animals in your home,
of course you see that they have very different personalities. Yeah,

(10:58):
and they're hardwired in really unique ways. People come to
our house and they'll say, all your cats are like dogs.
You know, It's like, so, where does that come from? Anyway?
I think you understand the point of making.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Totally Yeah, I was curious, So since in your past
with press you sort of like fucked with media. In
the beginning of The Pumpkins, I've heard you say that
it was sort of a performance art project, and a
lot of times the band would make things up in interviews.
I'm curious where you stand about sort of like digging

(11:30):
and creating viral moments to help your show blow up.
You know, it's like a very easy thing. It's a
cheap thing that you could You could probably do like that.
What's your take on that.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
I can think of about two or three instances where
I went down a particular road with an interview subject
on my show and it was like I played baseball
as a kid. It was like they threw me a
spinning curveball and all I had to do was hit it, yeah,
and it was instant clickbait.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
Can you tell us who?

Speaker 1 (12:04):
I can't remember, honestly, it's just it's just it's an
internal feel of like, oops, there it is, and all
I gotta do is ask the follow up question or
hit this spinning ball in front of my face and
there's a viral moment totally, And it's like in all
three instances, I was like Nope. I don't want to
be on that type of show. Yeah, and I don't
want to do that to my guests. I'm a firm believer,

(12:27):
and of course the numbers are still out on this,
but I'm a firm believer that we are capable of
creating a new type of dialogue in American culture. I
know it won't be for everybody, because we're dealing with
a massive people who are dopamine addicted, but I do
believe there's a different type of conversation that can be had. Obviously,
it's the twenty first century version of it, but I

(12:50):
remember being entranced by conversations when I was a kid
on TBS where they would just go on for hours
about really wonky stuff. But if you allow yourself to
be drawn in, it's this becunded atmosphere of like, wow,
not everything is yes or no, black or white, win
loup yes. And I think we live in such a

(13:11):
bifurcated society right now, where is that tends to be
the common metric? Yes, so and so on so and
so lost. A moment that really stands out starkly in
my mind in American life was I watched one of
the presidential debates in the last twenty years, and they
went to the you know, the roundtable. I don't remember

(13:31):
what network, but they went to the roundtable afterwards, and
they were talking about one of the candidate's debate performances.
And in the course of the analysis, the person said,
I knew they were lying to me, but they did
such a good job of lying. And I'd have to say,
they did a great job tonight. And I thought, there's like,
there's a lightning bolk. I was like, that's it. We

(13:51):
live in a society now where you're no longer punished
for openly lying. You're rewarded for the artifice of your
capability to lie. And in a post truth world. And
we've got tremendous artists who've created these avatars that are
that are world class avatars. I don't need to name
the names. Mostly they tend to reside in pop stars,

(14:13):
but they've created these world class avatars that sell perfume
and shoes and dresses and albums and you know, stadiums
full of people. But I also talked to a lot
of young kids who are really kind of almost stung
by it all. It's not even that they dislike the artists.

(14:34):
But they're almost saying to me, like to quote the
Peggy League, is that all there is like is me
as I am, disqualify me from the thing that I
might want to become. And I went through a very
similar thing. And that goes back to us messing with
the media. I felt very early on Circuit nineteen eighty
nine ninety that who I was was not going to work.

(14:56):
That personality was being rejected. So I created an avatar
of myself, not to become more attractive, actually to become
more repulsive. I turned that avatar into a weapon. And
what's really sort of interesting is that fifty seven years old,
people are still convinced I'm the avatar, not the person. Yeah,
the person is. I'm not saying I'm not a prickly pair,

(15:19):
but I'm a well rounded human being, you know, whether
it's family or charity work and a tea house and
a wrestling company. There's other sides to me besides this
rock conteur no pun intended, But people are really in
love with the avatar because it sells stuff, even if
it's negative clicks.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, does the avatar have anything to do with wrestling?
I always saw that as you sort of adopting that
same wrestling entertainment ethos where it's just totally over the top,
it's shock value. Does it come from that at all?

Speaker 1 (15:57):
It came later from that between from the late eighties
up until the late nineties, I didn't consciously know that
that's what I was doing.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Got it.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
And I was at a wrestling show one night and
I and I've talked to a young man for the
show who was getting an opportunity, and he was very nervous,
and I watched him go out and sort of in
a moment of feelty, I wanted to watch and see
how he did. And the crowd was mercilessly mean to him,
booed and yelled and through stuff. And so when he
came back to the curtain, I see empathy, was like, oh,

(16:27):
I felt bad for him. And he walked through the curtain.
I said, how do you feel? He said, I feel great,
and I said, I don't understand. He said, I did
my job. They hated me, And it was like this
light bulb went off in my head. I said, oh,
that's what I do. I'm actually by engendering a response
because I used to say the opposite of love is

(16:49):
not hate, his apathy.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
But as someone who feels a lot, doesn't the hate
denigrate you? And I mean that's got to hurt your soul.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Totally toxic. Yeah, totally a pyrrhic approach. It's not I
do not recommend it for the same thing. But I
made my point. The problem is is I've raised my
hand in different decades and say, okay, I'm done making
my point. I just want to go back to being
Bill from Glendale Heights and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

(17:23):
You're in it now, you are this, and so at
some point you become your avatar, want to be or not.
And I always start every sentence involving that with I
created it. It's my responsibility. I know why I created it.
I can blame the media or I can blame the
teacher in fourth grade, but I did it. So I'm

(17:43):
okay with that part of it. But it does get
toxic when you literally see and we of course we
live in a hyper politicized society. You literally see where
people cannot get out of the like no fact will
change their opinion, there's no You become kind of part
of something that's that's almost inexplicable. It's like they need

(18:07):
someone to boo. Yeah, and once you're kind of in
the in the in the heel section of the booing,
they don't want you to come out of it because
you're a really good heel. They did, they eat somebody
to be angry at or or or heat on or.
Like I told Joe Rogan in this interview that we
just did you know about about how at some point

(18:28):
I was I felt like I was being made to
pay for the sins of the of the generational figures
that had left the planet. Yeah, And he was like,
I don't really understand that. I was like, I'm expected
to carry a flag for people who aren't even here
for this amorphous concept of gen X, Yeah, which, by
the way, I didn't even I didn't even agree with
all those values either. Yeah. And I said it at

(18:49):
the time, irrelevant. It's like a like a judge out
of a Pink Floyd movie. Irrelevant. You were there, you
were there, you were on MTV. You carry this flag
whether you want to or not, you know, And that's.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Like they didn't even accept me. Oh no, no, I'm
the spokesperson.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
No.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
I mean the classic example I always give is the
Pumpkins album's got horrible reviews in the in the decade.
Now they're all considered classics. But I'm melancholie. I got
two and a half stars in Rolling Stone.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Wow, what was the reason? What was the argument?

Speaker 1 (19:26):
I said, it was a piece of shit, an over
ambitious piece of shit. Over ambitious, Yeah, I was that's yes,
that that was a bad thing to be back then.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yes. So speaking of gen X, I thought it was
so interesting and I saw you sort of have an
AHA moment during your Tom Morello interview where he was
explaining his theory why there was sort of a rejection
of fame during the nineties, and I saw it sort
of click for you, and I thought it was really
interesting and I wanted to hear more from you about it.

(19:57):
But basically he was saying a lot of the artists
who ended up getting big in the nineties sort of
like came up worshiping two different camps of music. A
lot of them were like super and hardcore punk rock.
They were into like Fat Brains, Fugazi, Minor Threat, but
they were also into Sabbath and Judas Priest and there's

(20:17):
sort of like a conflict in values. Is that something
that you and and so when some of those artists
like Rage, like Nirvana, like Pearl Jam started to get
super big, they felt really guilty and horrible about it.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yes, And I think Tom's point was then they projected
that discomfort out into the world the next problems. In
my case, I didn't. I wasn't uncomfortable with it. I
was uncomfortable with the projection from the alternative community, particularly
from snobs like Kim Gordon, that I was supposed to
behave a certain way because in the rules of alternative music,

(20:56):
you had to have a punk rock ethos therefore, or
you did not belong. I mean, there is a quote
in Kim Gordon's book where she literally says I wasn't
punk rocks, Like what the fuck does that mean? And
by the way, Kim Gordon's father was a professor in
a university that is an upper middle class position, you

(21:18):
know what I mean. Kids who come from actual fewers
don't care about ethos. They care about survival. So I
had no problem with being successful. I had a problem
with people like that projecting on me their ethos of
like it's okay to be ambitious as long as you

(21:38):
wear the right T shirt, which is all this complete
bullshit malarkey. To quote Biden, it's a total bullshit. Again,
there's that concept of ambition. I was too ambitious, ambitious
for what my future was working at a record store
or being on MTV. You choose. Being on MTV looked

(22:02):
a lot more attractive to me because it man, I
could do what I want to do, and I could
go where I want to go. Didn't have a professor father.
My father was in a house in Chicago dealing drugs
and guns. So for me, it was survival. It's like
the choices were stark and simple. So I agreed with

(22:23):
Tom that that was definitely at the heart of a
lot of those things. But again I think those were
in many cases put upon ethics that I did not
care for.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah, so when did you start talking about your early childhood?
When did that come into your story? When did you
start making that public? Because that does sort of change
the way that maybe people perceive you.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well ninety three when the Simeuse Dream album came out,
because people wanted to understand the subtextual language, and then
there was this kind of rise of Latzki kids who
suddenly were interested in what I was saying. And part
of that lyrical change had a lot to do with Courtney,
because Courtney chided me for my Hippie LSD inspired lyrics
on our first album, and she said something and I'm paraphrasing,

(23:11):
which went like, why can't the person I talked to
on the phone write the lyrics for the next record
or something? So I was like, Okay, I'll take that
on his challenge. But when I opened the door, I
found a lot of pain and a lot of denial
and a lot of a lot of stuff in there.
And the book The Artist's Way by Julie Cameron really
helped me to claim this voice in there that was

(23:36):
sort of screaming to get out. But I was terrified
because I knew I would be attacked and dot dot
I was, including people accusing me of making up my childhood.
I would routinely be asked in introdews to qualify my abuse,
which is insane, like on a scale of one ten,

(23:57):
how much were you beaten? And It's like, what is it? Yeah,
oh no, I'm not even making I'm not even close
to dramatizing them. I was asked at least forty or
fifty times in the nineties to qualify my abuse. Wow,
And I found a line eventually which kind of worked
as which was like, am I in the Abuse Olympics? Like,

(24:19):
do I have to like qualify to have agency to
talk about being abused? Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I was
being poked on by my family for talking about the
family secrets. Oh yeah, So I was getting it from
both ways. On one hand, I wasn't authentic enough and

(24:39):
the other side, the family side, they were mad for
me talking about what had happened because you don't talk
about that stuff in public.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, we'll be back with more from Billy Corgan after
the break.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
From an artist's perspective, the way that you started writing
lyrics where I imagine when you start out it's common
to take on a character and then you hear someone
like Courtney say, look like I want you to write
from your heart. I want you to write from you.
That seems like a really really big jump. How long

(25:16):
did that actually take? And like, how long was that process?
How many albums did that last?

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Well, it's strangely coincided with the need for us to
make a successful record. I'm the type of person where
I couldn't stand being successful if I wasn't authentic, which
sounds strange because we're talking about avatars, But most fans
of my work know that the voice in the music
is very authentic. All the character stuff all around it

(25:45):
is a bunch of smoke, but the voice singing is
pretty on point. So yeah, it was like, Okay, you've
got to make a really successful record. You've got to
live up to the success of these new grunge bands
which have sort of exploded on the world scene. It's
your major label debut. Oh, by the way, you have
to write pop songs which go on the radio. Somehow
put all those pieces together and get back to me later.

(26:08):
The only thing I found that resonated deeply with me,
that I was willing to kind of die for was
to speak with an authentic voice. And it went on
for about eight months where I just, you know, would
you I am painting an analogy, but you know, you
put pen to paper and you're just too afraid to
write what you want to say. That went on for
eight months, almost killed myself repeatedly, ended up living in

(26:31):
a parking garage. I mean, it was a very haunting time.
It sounds kind of strangely dramatic, in hindsight at the time,
it was like it was very peramine and I was
sober most of it too. I was not, I mean
I was. I was dealing with it full, full frontal, yeah.
And I reached the point where I made up my

(26:54):
mind that I couldn't deal with the pressure anymore. I
was going to kill myself. So I started giving everything away.
I started doing all the things you're not supposed to do.
I started planning my own suicide. I started envisioning what
people would look like standing around my casket. I went
through the whole mental ideation, and I got to the
point where I made up my mind, Okay, I'm gonna
kill myself on Friday, and I set the date and

(27:16):
I counted the days down four three, two one, and
I got up. I got up the day where I
was going to kill myself, and I was like, I
really don't want to kill myself, but I kind of
made up my mind to do this, and something broke
in me, and I'm not making this part up. I
literally was like, well, if you're not gonna kill yourself,
then you need to be honest. And within the next

(27:39):
twenty four to forty eight hours, I wrote two of
the most famous songs that we ever had, which was
today in Disarm and out came tumbling this this unafraid voice.
It was pretty shocking and I still can't even explain
it to this day. It was like the door finally
broke and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna be me.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
What do you attribute that to?

Speaker 1 (28:04):
I think it's like, if you face your greatest fear,
you become kind of unafraid. Yeah, I don't. That's I'm
not being artful in how I'm explaining it, but it's
like you've kind of faced it down. Yeah, you face
the final boss at the level or something, you know.
And what I would say, and I'm not a person
asked for public empathy, but I will say, for the

(28:26):
point of illustration, if anybody knows anything about me, that
has been a calamitous decision. Being myself in public has
not been a joy ride. Yeah, it's been a very complicated,
oftentimes confusing to me way to go through business. But
as an artist, I'm fine to stand by it because

(28:47):
the work is there. What it's done in my life,
what it's done to my personal relationships, what it's done
to the band, that's all for books and a wonderful
podcast like yours. But I stand by the artistic version
of it because I don't know any other way. That's
all I know, and that's without training. Again, not asking

(29:08):
for anything, just illustrate the point. I didn't go to college.
I had no artistic training, I had no mentor, I
hadn't nobody to sit me down and say this is
how you write a song, this is how you play guitar.
I had none of that. Everything is completely self taught.
And if I'm a suicidal personality in terms of how
I attacked the public sphere, well I think you can

(29:30):
understand where the root of that comes from because that's
the way I did it, and that's the way I
broke through. So why wouldn't I keep doing it? Because
I don't know any other way. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Have you had any other moments in your life that
were that rock bottom?

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Oh? Yeah? Yeah, early two thousands, there were some periods
that were really, really rough.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah. I mean that's why I'd be willing to talk
publicly about I guess you would call it suicide prevention. Yeah,
many private conversations with people who are going through it,
because I understand that once you're in it. It's like
a yeah, it's like one of those Star Trek things
where they lock on the ship and the ship gets
pulled in and there's nothing you can do.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
You know.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
That's how it felt me, like I just couldn't escape
the gravity. But I did, and I did multiple times,
and I don't wear it like a badger pride. I'm
almost kind of ashamed that I had to get to
that point, but I can also talk proudly that I
was able to do something with it alchemically, like lead
into gold stuff.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
So around the year two thousand, that would be the
Machina album, which just turned twenty five in February, so
about a month ago. So is that is that a period?
I know that was a really hard period for the band.
How do you think about that that period now that
you have some distance.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Well, you know, when when Jimmy chamber Lit left the
Pumpkins in ninety six and my mother died, I made
the decision to record the Ador album, which was basically
career suicide. And I was told at the time it
grew suicide, and I persisted, and it basically was career suicide.
Now it's considered a really, really a warmly thought of record.

(31:17):
Machina was the response to the negativity around the door.
It was like, we have one more record on our
album contract. We signed it together, let's reform is for
and let's just kind of do a record, give our
best college effort, like the Beatles did, make one more
record and go out on a fiery ball of glory.
And it didn't work out that way. We didn't make

(31:39):
it through the entire period without our basis Darcy leaving.
And then you know, there were a multitude of problems
in making the record and also promoting the record, including
the record company completely abandoning us. But the funny part
was towards the end of it, I announced that the
band was going to break up, which was always part
of the plan. We threw on the internet. In a

(32:02):
moment of I guess I was just kind of pissed
off at the record company. I threw out another record,
which is commonly known as Machina two for Friends and
Enemies of Modern music, and the fans love that record.
I went back to the record company and I said,
you know, I know this sounds crazy, and I know
we're leaving, but fans really like this record. Why don't

(32:24):
we put the two records together it's an intact unit
and put it back on the market, and I think
you'll get your money back and we'll be in a
good place. And they told me to fuck off. But
they asked for CD copies that they could hand out,
so they still help market Machina two behind the scenes,
but they wanted nothing to do with it publicly or commercially.

(32:47):
So when I made the reissue deal with what was
then EMI Records. Now our catalog is absorbed into Universal,
but at the time I made a deal, I said,
because they wanted all the albums reissued with box sets.
I said, I only make this deal if I'm allowed
to put Machina one and Machina two together into an
intact unit. So we're prepping that now. Oh nice, And

(33:10):
so Machina one in Machina two will be reunited as
they were written into one. Crazy. Uh, It's it's somewhere
in the neighborhood of fifty songs. Wow, Like it's like
a Wagner It's no, it's it's like it's like a
Wagner song cycle or something. It's like the Ringe cycle.
It goes on forever. But it really is the story

(33:32):
of a band disintegrating and by extension, my personality disintegrating
into some sort of spiritual uh being who trundles on
post two thousand. So it's hard to talk about that period,
but contextually, I think to your question, I look back
on it more fondly now than I did at the time.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Have you thought about selling the catalog?

Speaker 1 (33:55):
I've been approached many times and I've said no every time.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Do you think it'll ever come to a point where
you will?

Speaker 1 (34:02):
I don't know my lawyer, whose name I will leave
out of this for his his own his own sense
of sanity, but he's one of the top catalog guys
in the world. Wow, So I'm lucky in that. My guy,
you knows the business. So when we first sat together
with the idea that we were going to work together,

(34:23):
and he's a huge fan from way back. He talks
about buying Siamese Dream the day he came out, So
he's a he's a convert. He believes in what I do.
So the first time that we really sat down to
have a conversation about Okay, we're going to work together,
what does this really mean? The first question out of
his mouth was do you want to sell your catalog?

(34:44):
And he was asking more strategically than to encourage me
to do that, and I said no, And he said
why and I said, because it's undervalued. That I completely agree.
So until the catalog is that it's true value, it's
not even worth entertaining. It would be very, very very

(35:04):
hard for me to sell my catalog there. Yeah. Yeah,
I hear all the arguments, and there's fiscal arguments, and
there's hey, there's still your songs, you know, And but
for me, this has been my ticket to sanity. So
I have an incredibly close emotional attachment.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
And as I like to say, for the thirty that
people like to listen to, and I'm blessed to even
have that many, there's still another three hundred and seventy
sitting there that don't really get listened too much. So
I'm more on the Irving Berlin Diane Warren tip, which
is you're gonna hear all my songs eventually, and I'm
going to do what I gotta do to So handing
them over to somebody and figuring that they're going to

(35:45):
take care of my other children in this euphemistic case,
is hard for me. To believe.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah, it's interesting. How now it's totally acceptable. People don't
bat an eye when they hear you know, so and
so institutional artists sold their catalog. It's just sort of
you know, okay.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah. I don't describe any anything to those things, because
everybody should make decisions based on what's best for them
and their family. But it's sometimes when you see people
you truly respect and that have always been held up
as paragons of virtue or independence. Yes, kind of quote
unquote sell out to the man. And there may come
a day where I too will sell out to the man.
But let me add one other thing. And I have

(36:24):
thrown this out there and people always look at me
with this really puzzled, puzzled look, and then they realize
that I'm serious. Both my children have some musical ability,
but I would never push them into into music if
they didn't want it. There's no there's no uh, this
isn't the Brady Bunch or something, right. But but I
do not rule out that that the brand of the

(36:47):
Smashing Pumpkins will continue, not just past me, but it
will it would continue because it's set up as an
artistic institution. I see it as being completely possible that
my children would take over the Smashing Pumpkins at one
point but play their own songs and not even necessarily
play mine. It's like it's like being in the Flying

(37:08):
will lend As or something. Yeah, it's not a Hank
Williams junior situation where he had to play his father's songs.
I could see a scenario and my children would take
over the brand but not even feel the need to
play my music.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
Are you careful that you're not putting pressure on them? Oh?

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, very much so. Yeah. My son on his kolee
on his own, has asked for a guitar, ukulele and
a bass and he plays the ukulele pretty well for
a kid who doesn't practice much. So. And my daughter
has found some program where you sing along with songs
and analyzes your pitch. Oh wow, she's only six years old.

(37:49):
So the other day my wife sent me a clip
of my daughter in bed singing Sweet Dreams by the Arrhythmics.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Oh so, both of them showing Jenny Lennox.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Sure, but I would never push them into it because
the one thing my father said that did resonate over
time was he didn't want me to go to the
music business because in his estimation and it was a
shit business. So I understand what he means. Wrong, No,
it's a shit business. Yeah No, but I've said publicly

(38:20):
and I'll say it to you. It's a rapacious business.
It still is anti artists, which is sure believable after
one hundred years of business. It's still holy anti artists,
which which is why you still see those contentious types
of relationships between artists and labels or artists in their handlers. Yeah,

(38:45):
if you really get behind the scenes and you talk
to people who truly run the music business, they'll tell
you that they're and I think it's a bit of
a rationalization, but they'll tell you that part of their
logic is artists don't last. Most are lucky to have
three or four years. So they're oriented around the concept,
which is, I don't really have to worry about your

(39:07):
future because it's not my future.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
I find that completely shocking, because if you have a
Billie Eilish or you know, Bob Marley, I don't know
how you don't go, My goodness, this is such a
rare flower. Yeah, we really got to do everything in
our power to nurture and let this artist fly with

(39:32):
the biggest wings possible because by the way we make
more money, they go into this other mode, which is like, uh,
we better be careful, We're going to lose control. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
I thought it was really interesting your conversation with Sharon
Osborne on your podcast, because she has been in the
music industry since she as she started working with her
dad when officially working with her dad when she was fifteen,
and back then the music industry was so much more
upfront about just being ruthless. There were no protections in

(40:08):
place for our So that was just interesting to hear
that whole lineage. And I was curious in your interview
with Sharon, you seemed like you were giving her a
lot more room to talk, whereas the Tom Morello you
were so excited. You were like, you know, jumping in
and I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you had you
were like, so, you know, like excited about it because

(40:31):
there's just a lot of commonality, I think. But with
the interview with Sharon, is there a reason you had
a different approach? Did it have anything to do with
your past with Sharon?

Speaker 1 (40:44):
A little bit? A little bit Sharon and I made
up behind the scenes, I mean easily over fifteen years ago. Yeah,
but I think there's a sweetness and an affection there
that we have naturally, and I wanted to be careful
in getting her to talk about stuff that maybe she

(41:04):
would normally talk about in a way that would make
her feel safe. And I think that was also an
understanding that if I wasn't careful, it might come off
that I still had a bone to pick, given you know,
our our very public falling out circa around machine. Actually. Yeah,
So I mean I know that I know that Sharon

(41:26):
and I are cool, and she knows that I'm cool
with her. But at the same time, I could see
where maybe people would be misinterpreting my approach. So if
you see any nervousness there, it's not between Sharon and I.
It's it's because I want to make sure that nobody
misreads what's going on, because, like I said, this is
this is a long ago healed thing between us.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, how did you end up? Well, how did the
avatar eventually break down? And was that in the Machina era?

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Uh? I think I rationalized that once I was out
of it with the Pumpkins, it was like, Okay, that
was a contrivance of that. I'm thirty three years old,
I'm going to be on my own now, and I'm
to get a new record deal. I'm going a soldier
on as quote unquote Billy Corgan, whoever that is. And
I genuinely tried in the band that followed The Pumpkins,

(42:18):
which was uan to just be a member of the band. Yeah,
and I'll tell you a funny thing that happened. Zwan
was very much put together as a kind of an
equal ensemble. All front members of the band could sing,
and two of the male members had sung for their
own bands or in their own situations, and pause the

(42:40):
bass player could sing well too, So I was trying
to find something that had a little bit more balanced
to it than say, The Pumpkins, at least on paper.
And I kind of got comfortable with not being the
front guy, even though I was the front guy. Yeah,
and I read a review of us back when I
read reviews that chastised the show as being boring and

(43:05):
chastise me for sort of laying back or something. So
in a moment of peak, I, uh, if that's the
way you pronounced that word, I decided the next night
that I was going to go out there and put
on an old fashioned show in the way that I
knew how to do in the pumpkins, and so I
was jumping all over and I had a great time,
and the show was great, and it was really well received.
I had no idea none that that night there was

(43:28):
a there was a critic for Rolling Stone in the audience,
as only they would have it. I had no idea
there was a reviewer there, because you wait, somebody will
come back and tell you so and so is in
the house or something. You're on the guest. So imagine
that I've done this whole tour where I really kind
of laid back, and then then this one night I
decided to be my machine, a self or something. And

(43:51):
then this review comes out and the reviewer chastises me
for making the show about me. I thought, well, you know,
damned if you do, damned if you don't. So in
my in my brain that that equals, well, if I'm damned,
if I'm if I do, I'm going to do it,

(44:11):
I'm gonna make it worse. So that's set into emotion
a whole nother round of various versions of whatever this is,
and it gets it gets a awfully disassociative at times. Yeah,
but I'm interested, I guess, so that's my excuse. Yeah,

(44:32):
it's not healthy.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
It works though it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
It doesn't.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
I mean, I don't know how it I'm sure personally, emotionally,
it's extremely hard. Publicly entertainment wise, it works.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Let me take a let me take a a philosophical leap.
A child that's abused or a child that feels neglected
that changes its personality to gain attention or love. Yeah,
ultimately no. As an Alice Miller talks about this in
the great book The Dramas, It gets a child that

(45:09):
the child is aware that's inauthentic. So there's a sorrow
attached to the personality because the personality is the device
by which they're removed from their own the love that
they really want, which is self acceptance or the acceptance
of the parents or whatever. So to persist at fifty

(45:30):
seven with this disassociative set of characters, it means on
some level, I'm still not getting the love that I
would like to get. There's a sadness to that, you know.
And to illustrate this example, again not asking for any
empathy or sympathy I will be walking through an airport
and that's usually where people can get to me because

(45:51):
I'm in the world at a catch a plane. And
I can't tell you how many times people have come
up and talked to me as if I'm the agent
for the person that wrote all the songs.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (46:06):
They talk to me like, I'm not Billy Corgan the artist,
talk to me like I'm Billy Corgan the human being.
Who can can Billy corgyan the human being talked to
the person they're really interested in. I know it sounds strange,
but I'm telling you this is a common experience.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Like can you have a meeting with that guy because
something's going on with him that obviously isn't right.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Yes, Like don you talk to your twin.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Because they see you in the world and they see, oh,
he's a guy, but.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
They don't want that guy. They're not interested in that guy.
So it's weird because you're constantly in this position of
almost being put down. Yeah, but they're putting you down
with you. I know it sounds very strange and it's
hard to translate, but I've had this experience many, many times.
It's like, yeah, in my will we call them Siamese zombies.

(46:57):
They're people who are in love with Siamese Dream and
there's no other record for them in the Pumpkins Cannon,
and that's all they want to talk about, and they'll
talk about it for hours, and if you even remotely
go off the subject, their eyes glaze over in the
get bored. I call them siem zombies, right, because it's
literally talking to a zombie. Yeah, okay. They will talk
to me and say, you know, it would be really

(47:18):
nice if you could talk to the guy who wrote
those songs, because I would like more of those songs. Yes,
you know, I'm the guy who wrote those songs. And
they're like, yeah, but if you were really the guy
who wrote those songs, you would write more of them.
And I'm like, no, I'm the guy who wrote those
songs and I choose not to write more songs like that.
And they're like no, no, no, no, no, there's something wrong in

(47:39):
this exchange. It's like, I'm not even there. I know
it's super this is real, but again I think it's
it speaks to the disassociated nature for a culture. Oh yeah,
it's little avatars, real avatars, real human beings, real human
beings and the digital currency culture are inconvenient because they cry,

(47:59):
they bleed, they sigh, they yawn, they they look away.
It's inconvenient to this digital ogapay that needs to go on.
And the pop stars have become very skilled at nurturing
this digital aga pay, so they're so everybody else seems
like they're moving slow.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
That also seems like it's a product of the nature
of your job, which is pouring all of your emotional
life into something that becomes a product that people consume.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
I'm okay with that, And that's crazy, it sounds I'm
okay with that. What I'm not okay with is is
that's the wrong set of pouring emotions. Can you pour
a different set of emotions? Yeah, as if there's a choice.
So that's a weird weird like it's like saying to
your partner, you're loving me wrong? Yeah, can you tuk

(48:53):
you this other way? And they're like, no, I'm loving
you the way I love this is all I know.
I'm giving you everything I got none And I saw
this TV show Can you love me like that?

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (49:05):
It's it really is this embrace of and inauthentic world. Yes,
And what's even more frightening is that nobody seems to care.
And when I say nobody, I'm being hyperbolic, but I mean,
you don't hear this big hue and cry in the culture.
What happened to our authentic culture? I think because people
are entertained bread and circus, So as long as they're entertained,

(49:27):
they're pick with the inauthenticity. And I think the rising
suicide rates with young people are some small indication and
they're through the roof that something is a miss. But
nobody want to hit the pause button and even do
any kind of deep dive study on how this associative
culture is influent young people. And again I go back

(49:48):
to the analogy I made. I think they look down
the pike and they say, there's no room for me
to be me.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
We have to take one more break and we'll be
back with Leo Rose and Billy Corgan.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Do you really think, with everything that's going on in
how fast things escalate in media, that people will get
to a point where authenticity will make a comeback? Do
you really think that's possible?

Speaker 1 (50:15):
I do, but I'm going to paint it in a
bleique cynical way. Yeah, I think you will end up
with a culture which is eighty to ninety percent inauthentic,
in a bifurcated culture which celebrates the ten or fifteen
to twenty percent remaining, and they will set up their
own economy and celebrate their for lack of better word, authenticity. Yeah,

(50:37):
you're going to get to the point where you're gonna
have artists say they will say on their records, there's
no auto tune on this record, you know, like the
performance you hear we actually recorded. Yeah, you know this
this photo is not airbrushed. And you see little glimmers
of that, like when famous actresses will post pictures with

(50:58):
no makeup. Yes, there's some.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
There's Sam Anderson no makeup tour.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Sure, there's some acknowledgment of it all. But I do
think it's going to end in end up in a
bifurcating type of thing. Yeah, crasslely, it'll become a business model.
It's the thing that the real people will point at
the non real people and say they're not real. Yeah,
And the non real people will say, we're having a
lot more fun over here. Enjoy your no makeup and

(51:24):
enjoy your no auto tune. So we're over here having
a great party. And oh, by the way, we're on
all the major media platforms because it's all about clicks.
So as long as we get clicks, we don't care
what you think, because clicks are the new cast. Yeah,
so that's the cynic in me. But I do feel
and make one last grand prognostication, which is, I do

(51:47):
think you're gonna see the old media system visa the
how it interlaces with entertainment. Pick your poison, Grammys, Oscars, Emmys,
MTV Awards. I'm not just talking about ratings. I think
that whole system of elites basically picking and choosing winners
or losers is about to explode. Yeah, I'm not saying

(52:09):
it's going to vanish, but I think it's about to explode.
I think we've reached the tolerance point for the deception
of it only. And I'm not saying that people don't
win awards. I want awards. I'm proud to say I've
won a couple Grammys. Yeah, but that system has become
so burdened by the weight of artifice that it can't
longer sustain itself.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
What markers will we use? Though, As if you put
yourself in a journalist's seat. A lot of the times
when we write the intros for this show, we'll say,
you know, so and so artists three time Grammy Award winner,
Like when you were talking about Diane Warren, you listed
off her many awards. If those shows, those old institutions

(52:52):
blow up and disappear, and they're already you know, irrelevant,
very close to it, and there's no more platinum albums
like you know, eminem comes out in two thousand and
three and goes like triple platinum on the day that's gone.
So what will be the markers of success?

Speaker 1 (53:15):
I know it's a hard thing because I think you're
asking a great question, but I think you'll ultimately you
I guess I'm personalizing it. I think you look, you
would survey the landscape, and you will see who has influence.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Using myself as an example, right under the old system,
I was told repeatedly for fifteen to twenty years of
my life, my influence was gone, my value was severely diminished.
What value I had was in the past, and so
my only value in the present was to reap the past.
I was told this repeatedly by some of the most

(53:49):
famous and influential people in the music business. No joke
in boardrooms where they just looked at me and said,
here's where you are, take it or leave it. I refuse.
I thought I stuck my crazy foot in the ground,
and I think now you see that I do have
more influence than they would have given me credit for.

(54:09):
It's hard to quantify what that influence is. Yeah, in
the old guard it would have been well so and
so mentioned you in an interview or your outu the
number number four most influential alternative record of nineteen ninety three.
No one gives a shit about any of that anymore.

(54:30):
So it's you almost have to do a daily read
of who actually can put their thumb on the scale
and move something. And I'll bring it back selfishly to
the podcast. My voice in the podcast is important, not
because it's me, but because I have the authority to
stand there and have these conversations. You don't even have

(54:51):
to like my music, buy my music, care about me
as an artist, care that I'm a father and an entrepreneur,
but you cannot deny that I've spent thirty five years
in the game. Yeah, okay, I know the game really well,
and by the way, I'm on the record speaking of
about the game for thirty five years.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
So just the ability to stand in that forest and
say I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree
with me, in fact, go ahead, but at least I
have a right to stand here. That's a different type
of authority. Has nothing to do with record sales. It
has nothing to do with whether my saw on the
chart that is the yes. But I'm what I'm after
is this is where the legacy media is so flat

(55:35):
footed because they're so reliant on the New York Times
system on down that has existed in our entire lifetimes.
The New York Times was like the Pope, and then
everything flowed down from the Pope. That shit has gone
and doesn't matter your political stripe or social stripes. You
can easily jump on YouTube or Twitter. I still call

(55:58):
it Twitter me too, Okay, God bless You can pretty
much figure out who can put their thumb on a
scale and actually move stuff. This is a new economy
that it's very unprecedented, and you can see the legacy
media is completely looking around saying what happened? They burned
out all the eastwards, They burned out all the cancel culture.

(56:21):
They lost that game, and now there's this whole new
rise of people and everyone's going, who the hell are
these people and why are they eating three hundred thousand views,
sixty thousand views, three in views? Who are these people
in that economy? I'm actually quite valuable. So that's weird
because again I'm speaking again personally. I was told for

(56:42):
twenty years you have no value unless you ring the
bell of nineteen seventy nine into eternity. And to be fair,
even people in my personal life that know me, that
have known me for twenty thirty years, they don't understand
it because they're told by their family or their friends

(57:02):
or their workbates that their assessment of my value. These
are people in mind, they don't even get it. Yeah,
they think I'm crazy, because I'm like, no, you'd understand.
It's like, who can walk in a room and actually
say something that has any meeting in a world that
has very little meaning anymore because it's all been so gamed.

(57:24):
It's like the whole world's Disneyland now right, It's not funny.
At some point it gets a little. It's like I
used to I was rummer. He went to Disneyland one
time four days in a row, and I thought, oh
my god, I love Disneyland. But four days in a row,
I start to lose my mind with It's a small world. Okay,
that's what had to me. It's like we're all in
Disneyland day after day after date, like and we can't

(57:45):
get out of it. The screaming headlines, the hyper politicization
of every facet of our society. It doesn't matter your politics,
we're just all sort of hired. So at some point
you look around and go, I just want a quiet
song and a quiet hymn or or a treat to

(58:05):
sit under. Yes, So of course in the digital landscape
we're going to find those voices and those people, which
is why anachronistically doing a podcast which feels more like
a PBS special from nineteen seventy two than twenty twenty
five is gaining really good traction because totally it feels
like just a nice, quiet poem where two people can

(58:26):
have a conversation about stuff that is important. And now
you know how I know it's important because I know
it's important. It's life. It's like read Sanskrit. It's like
it's there all the way back, four thousand years life, Love, Ambition,
you know, Blue, too close to the Sun. This shit's
never going to get old.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
No, you're so right. For me, it seemed like a
big turning point was your twenty seventeen appearance on Rogan.
I feel like that really showed all of us this
like really thoughtful, eloquent the elder statesman within the business.
It showed us a new side of Billy Corgan. That

(59:06):
was my experience. I don't know if everyone had that experience,
but I was watching it with my husband the other
night and he's like, damn, this guy's like smart, and
I'm like, I know, it's crazy and he's got like
these crazy stories. So what was a turning point for
you where you were like, I want to do this.
I want to get into the whole podcasting thing.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
I didn't. Honestly, I didn't particularly have any yen for it, right, Yeah, Yeah,
that's a good word. I did a podcast a few
years back, built around our album Autumn at thirty three songs.
I did the podcast. Nobody cared. Nobody was ringing me
up to do a podcast deal, so I thought, Okay,

(59:48):
that's just not for me. Although I enjoyed it. I
was very intrigued with what Rick Deiato does. Yes, and
he's pivoted a couple times, and he's even pivoting again.
Very smart guy, very capable of musician and musical mind
as well. And both Jimmy and I from the Pumpkins
have had the honor of being interviewed by Rick.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
But I think what Rick showed is there are a
lot of musicians out there who just want to hear
about music, not through the prism of the drama and
and tell us a good tour story, Motley Crue one
more time, tell us how you actually recorded that bass sound,
because people are still talking about that bass sound forty
years later. And I thought, Okay, if there's a market
there for what Rick's after on the deep dive kind of,

(01:00:31):
let's call it the nerd side of the equation, which
I love. There's no distance sing nerd. Then I know
there's this other side of the conversation, which more gets
into the interior life of a writer and by extension,
the interior life of an actor or a scientist. And
so that's my ultimate ambition is to broaden the scope
past even past the arts where you can talk to anybody,

(01:00:54):
whether there's a successful podcast or a successful race car driver,
because I think that interior life discussion is something that's
really fresh. If you can do it in a non
click baity way, then I think we all benefit from that.
So that's that's kind of the whole setup. And then
the other part of the story is I had no
plans in doing it, and then I was on Bill

(01:01:14):
Maher's show Club Random.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
I did the appearance. They pulled me aside and said
we'd like you to be a host on his new
podcast network he's doing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Wow, that's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Yeah. And one thing that struck me right away, and
I've known Bill Frover twenty five years, is Bill, you know,
is very much a free speech guy. Yes, and I'm
a free speech I'm not a free speech absolutist, but
I'm very much a free speech person. I think our
society ultimately benefits from open dialogue, however, uncomfortable that we

(01:01:44):
always come out on the better if we just are
willing to have the dialogue. Like I hear you and
I agree, but I disagree. But yeah, anyway, sorry over explainings.
But and even just as a sidelong illustration of that.
You know, I just did the appearance on Rogan and
a new One. Yeah, and he's done very very well.

(01:02:04):
You know, in the economy of podcasting, you know, lots
of people watched have watched it. But within twelve hours
of my appearance on there here come the fans who
are mad at me for being on Rogan's podcast. Yes,
we didn't talk politics at all in two hours and
forty five minutes and going back to being you know
why I wanted to work with Bill and Bill's stance

(01:02:26):
on free speech. There's no politics in my podcast. There's
no politics at all. I mean, we talk a little
bit about it with Tom Morello, but even then it's yeah,
more philosophical than antipicating on current events. Yeah. I don't
want the artistic sphere, and I'm going to extend that
to scientists as well. I don't want the artistic sphere
that I'm after to be poisoned by people's polemic need

(01:02:49):
to pick winners and losers. I want us all to win.
That's why I want That's why I called it what
it is. I really think these are magnificent people that
I want to share with the audience. From my perspective, okay,
but when you see people trying to go after you
because quote unquote, you know, I love these buzzwords, disinformation
and all this stuff. I mean, it's unbelievable to me.

(01:03:09):
First off, Joe's number one podcast host in the world
for years, for many years. Second of all, Joe's been
a public person for thirty going on thirty five years.
So I'm not supposed to go on somebody's podcast because
a percentage, it could be fifty percent, it could be

(01:03:31):
one hundred. I don't care. A percentage of the US
population has an issue with the man's politic and somehow,
by being on his podcast and talking about nothing about politics,
I'm somehow endorsing his position. Joe doesn't even know what
my political position is. He didn't even ask me. There

(01:03:52):
was no qualification of do you agree with me or
you disagree with me. Let's just come on and talk
about whatever we're going to talk about. That to me
is not a society I want to be part of.
And I would say we've had about seven to ten
years of a society and it's not working. It's not working,
So why people persist is beyond me. But they're going

(01:04:12):
to persist. I acknowledge that let them persist, but I
think they're going to find it's a losing strategy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Do you seem very aware which I appreciate of how
each outlet, each podcast is different and the host approaches
it differently. So for Rick Biatto, you sit down and
you know you're going to get like a really intense
technical conversation about choices you've made artistically, and you seem
prepared for that and up for it too, which is great.

(01:04:42):
With Bill Maher, what's it like being in his little club? Random?
Like he's like smoking blunts, which is so crazy, and
like doing shots, Like, what's it like being right there?

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Well, you know, my father was a weed smoker and
smoked continuously, so it's been a while since I had
a good contact high. So as Bill smoke in a way,
I start to get a little bit buzzed, yeah, and
then thinking, like, you know, I'm pretty much sober person
in life, So I'm standing there thinking, am I about
to do something stoned? Which I'm not used to being stoned?

(01:05:19):
Am I about to do something is gonna get me,
you know, blown up here in public? So there were
times where I was kind of like, as long as
I was afraid to say something. I was afraid to
say it wrong. Yes, but I, like I said, I've
known Bill for a long time, and and Bill's a
very interesting mind in that, like all great professional comedians,
you're never quite sure where they're gonna go. H It's

(01:05:40):
not that they're always after the joke, but they're kind
of after the bit. Yeah, take me to the bit.
So we started talking about Gilligan and masturbation and it
was interesting. Yeah, it got pretty interesting, but it reminded
me of about eight thousand other stoner conversations I've had.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
So yeah, which is kind of perfect for a podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Sure, I think that that's fun. I think it's pretty
brilliant that Bill's got this super serious side on his
age Oh show, and then there's the other side that
it wants to have a laugh and be amused and
or irritated, which he's really good at being irritated totally.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
And then going on, Howard, what's that been like for you?
Are you nervous before these appearances or you seem very
much at ease, but are you in your head about
it to where you're thinking about the audience and you're
thinking about the number of people.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Watching No, not at all. No, I if I could
give any insight. When you're with the highly skilled interviewer,
you learn to just let them lead you where they
want to go. Most interviewers are not that skilled, and
so you learn in your media years to kind of
push it where you want it to go. Yes, great

(01:06:51):
interviewers have a way of leading you, and you just
let them lead you. Yeah, you have to trust that
they're not going to try to pull a gotcha. So
with somebody like Howard, I trust Howard and I'll tell
things Howard. I'll tell things to Howard. I wouldn't say anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Why to me that thinks Okay, hey, he knows how
many people are listening, and he knows this is going
to get a lot of airplay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
No, no, I know he's not going to ask me
to fuck up follow up question. Oh what do you
mean he's not going to ask me the clickbait question
that would follow the revelation. Huh that It's just call
it a certain type of trust. Yeah, I do remember.
Like when I was on Joe's show Last Time, Yeah,
seven years ago, I told him a story about finding

(01:07:35):
a sawed off shotgun under my father's bed, which my
father heard and had had a funny response to. But
that's not a story I would ever told. But I
also felt I could tell it. Joe, Yeah, and he laughed.
Oh calculus in my mind like, oh, this will be good.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Let me put he say this way. If I really
wanted attention, just imagine the things that I know that
I have never said.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
Right, what you're saving for the book.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
I'm talking about things I know about famous people that
I've never said.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Yeah, that's what I want to know. Well, I got
to ask all that, So are you actually writing a book?
Is that something you're actively working on?

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
In fact, in fact, just before I came out with you,
I was working on my book. I was fixing the
whole batch of really poor writing. But yeah, I've been
working on my book, and my hope is to finish
this year a book basically between the ages of zero
and nineteen wow, before I would take some time off
and then start, you know, nineteen onto whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
How are you remembering things? And do you trust your memory?

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
I have an insane memory. I do. I don't know
if that's inborn, but I just do. I think part
of it was wanting to remember all these things that
had been done to me in some sort of need
to catalog I don't know, like the Man in the
Iron Mask or something. I felt like I needed to
write it all down. Yeah, so I did in my

(01:09:01):
brain and I've kept it. Even my wife recently said,
it'll be good if you finish this so you can
finally let these things go.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
Do you think that'll happen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
I don't know. I don't know, because I think it's
the act of putting something out in public that creates
the alchemy for that. As long as it's private, it
sort of remains kind of a secret. And having done
it before publicly, like we were talking about with the
album side of These Dream I do know that there's
something that happens.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
It's yea.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
It puts an electrical charge in the air, and if
it's true, it puts a really interesting electrical charge in
the air because again it's authentic. Yeah, I know. Well,
I don't know, but I assume or I feel that
when people do read my book or books, they're gonna
have a hard time believing a lot of what they
they'll read. But I know that this stuff happened, so

(01:09:52):
that's all I know. But there are times when I'm
writing it, and i'll read it back. I'm like, Wow,
it's hard to believe that this act stuff actually happened.
And sometimes I'll read my wife passages and I'll like
and I'll I'll kind of get her reaction and I'm like,
it's crazy that this actually happens. She's like, I know,
you've had a crazy life. Like there it is, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Yeah, is there anything else you want to talk about
as far as the show about your process?

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
I really the depth of this discussion. It's a lot
of fun, and yeah, I hope people enjoy the show
if they see it. It's a unique entity, and I
think it's very much like my music. It'll win if
it's unique, and it'll lose because it's too unique or something,
you know, And I'm okay with that because I wouldn't
want to do it any other way, I think, is
what I'm after.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
Yeah, it's fun. It seems like you're having a lot
of fun, and it seems like you're comfortable. I like
your cue cards.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
I'd like to ditch the Q cards as possible, but
also I also I don't want to take my eyes
off the guests. You know, they're rude about looking away.
So I don't know. I don't know how. I haven't
figured out how to sort that out.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
It's a lot. It's like, you know, you're balancing a
lot because you're trying to, Like you said, expert interviewers
can lead the guest in a way that they felt
all held and comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Yeah. Yeah, And I go back to my own experiences
where I would walk out and everything, well that was intense,
but I enjoyed it, you know, kind of like this interview.
It's like it's all good. I don't mind. I don't
mind walking up to certain lines if I feel like
the intention is to get to something fresh, you know.
The other the other experience of being held up as
clickbait is a weird, weird thing. And I'll give you

(01:11:34):
one little inside hint on that I've learned to stop
saying people's names. Yeah, I just don't say people's names
because if I say their name, it's going to get
clickbaited totally because they need the name for the clickbait.
So I just don't say the name anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
They just made me a better I don't want to
say liar, but they've just made a better Evaid, you know,
I've just become more evasive.

Speaker 3 (01:11:59):
Yeah, no, I get that, but it's smart. I would
do the same thing. I wouldn't tell anyone anything I
would like.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
I kind of like the public running into the wall
part of it. It doesn't that part doesn't bother me.
It's when it disinterpreted into something that it isn't right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
Would you ever have anybody on the show and just
like maybe somebody who you had beef with in the past,
or maybe still have some sort of issue with, would
you ever have them on and just like argue with them?

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
It would depend on the subject. For example, it would
be really interesting to have a discussion with Tom Morello
about politics, but only if we lived in a society
that would welcome the discussion and not penalize either one
of us for having the discussion. Yes, well, pro believe
in that society. So Tom and I can only have
that discussion in private. And I think for somebody who

(01:12:50):
had rolled their eyes and say, why do I want
to listen to musicians talk about politics, I think that's
a fair point. But musicians understand what it's like to
stand behind the wizard's curtain. Musicians have access to a
lot of information that most people would not know that
musicians have access to. Tom even talks in his interview
about how he worked for a sitting US senator. Yeah,
that's that's an uncommon experience.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
Yeah, that was really interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
Oh. I know some really highly placed people in the
political sphere, and I know a lot of stuff that
I wouldn't talk about because it's private information. But it
certainly gives me a perspective on maybe the political world
that most people wouldn't have. But when I ever discussed
that in public, no fucking way. Yeah, because we don't
live in a society that can maturely sit by and
listen to two people talk about political perspectives in an

(01:13:35):
open way that you go, okay, I hear you. Okay,
that's good. Good, I learned something. No, it's like, oh
you're good, You're bad. Yeah, And again back to the
Joe Rogan thing. It's like, I mean when I see
when I see my own fans writing words like misinformation,
I mean, that's straight out of the CIA, buddy, you
know what I mean. It's like I do buzzwords for

(01:13:55):
a living. You know, rat in a cage, you know
what I mean. It's like you can't play meme word
games with somebody like me. That's what I do for
a living. This idea that you're going to use words
against me, like like the vague word of misinformation, It's like,
what does that mean. It's a perfect word because nobody

(01:14:15):
knows what it means, but everybody knows what it means. Yeah,
so I I would love it. So I would have
to be to the spirit of your question. It would
have to be something that has of no consequence, like
arguing over what's the better Judas priestylbum.

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
Or something that'd be fun.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
Yeah. Sure, Is that a business model? I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
Well, thank you so much Billy for coming on. I
love talking to you. God bless and I can't wait
for more of your episodes. Can't wait to see where
you go as an interviewer.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
Thank you so much, God bless you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Thanks to Billy Corgan for speaking his mind and opening
up about his difficult history. You can listen to Corgan's
new podcast, The Magnificent Others now on YouTube and all
podcast platforms, and you can hear our favorite songs from
Corgan and the Special Pumpkins on a playlist at Broken
record podcast dot com. You see the video version of
this episode. Visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast,

(01:15:18):
and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the
Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at
broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose,
with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our
engineer is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production of
Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin,

(01:15:38):
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Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.