May 8, 2025 • 56 mins
Daryl Hall stands as one of the greatest pop songwriters in music history. As the iconic half of Hall & Oates, his classic tracks like "Sara Smile," "Rich Girl," and "Maneater" earned the duo coveted spots in both the Songwriters and Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Yet beyond his chart-dominating success throughout the '70s and '80s, Daryl remains a profoundly gifted, soulful creator whose musical talents transcend genres.
On today's episode, Justin Richmond talks to the legendary Daryl Hall about his early career with Gulliver on Elektra Records—where he shared a label with The Doors—and diving into the creative process behind classics like "She's Gone" from the seminal album Abandoned Luncheonette. Daryl also talks about his latest artistic endeavor, D, a collaborative album he made with Eurythmics co-founder Dave Stewart.
This episode is brought to you by Defender – A vehicle engineered to meet challenges head-on, so you can explore with confidence. Adventure seekers and risk-takers can explore the full Defender lineup at LandRoverUSA.com.
You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Daryl Hall songs HERE.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hey, this is Justin Richmond from the Broken Record podcast.
Join me this June for a live taping of Broken
Record at the Tribeca Festival, where I'll be in conversation
with Infinity Song, a New York based soft rock band
comprised of four siblings who will also be doing a
couple of songs for us. You'll hear the artist and
a career spanning conversation about their inspirations and dynamic styles.
(00:39):
We'll be at the SVA Theater on June twelve at
eight thirty pm. Defind tickets. Visit tribecafilm dot com slash
Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash Broken Record.
Hope to see there. Dare I say? Darylhall is one
of the great pop songwriters of our time as half
of the duo Hall and Oates, who was all over
(01:00):
the charts in the seventies and eighties from Sarah Smile
to Rich Girl to You Make My Dreams and Man Eater,
But beyond the hits and the pop chart is a gifted,
soulful writer and player of all sorts of songs. In
this episode of Broken Record, I talk with Daryl Hall
about his early days entrenched in Phillies armb scene, his
stint on Electra records with his band Gulliver that found
(01:22):
him being label mates with The Doors, how he wrote
classics like She's Gone Off, Abandoned, Leschenette, his partially shelved
album with Robert Fripp, and his latest album d a
collaboration between him and Dave Stewart of the Rhythmics. This
is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode is
(01:44):
brought to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet
challenges head on so you can explore with confidence. Adventure
Seekers and risk takers can explore the full Defender lineup
at land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's my conversation with Daryl Hall.
How you doing, I'm doing well.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I'm doing okay? I overworked. I'm overworked, but I'm good.
Got it.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You gotta say some time to relax.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah. One, I'd like to know when that is.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Do you do you find being busy or not having
it enough to do impacts your songwriting, your creativity.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, it's a funny thing. I'm either too busy or
I'm a champion at the bit it's one or the other.
I'm either sitting here reading my book and go on,
oh fuck, you know what am I doing? Or I'm
overworked and I'm might pull my hair out.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know what books do you typically read?
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Oh? I read Jesus depending on my you know, if
I just want to relax, I read, you know, like
Michael Connelly books and things like that, James L. Roy,
you know. But you know I read for information. I
read constantly. Is what I do?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Is fiction a source of inspiration for you at all?
And when it comes to music.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Who is writing is a source of inspiration? A turn
of phrase, I might twist it around my own way,
adapt it to something I'm thinking about, use it in
a song. I do that all the time. I hardly ever,
actually basically never pull something directly from an author, but
I'll use it in in some some form that is
(03:26):
part of the expression that I'm trying to achieve, in
a verse or even maybe sometimes in a chorus.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Is there an example that comes to mind? Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, like say it isn't So that's an obvious one,
you know, It's just it's just part of my and
also I log it in my head. I might read
read a phrase and remember it. At some point, it'll
come back to me as I'm as I'm looking for
looking for something in a lyric.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
How often do you listen to music?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I am not a good audience. I don't really listen
to music. I I make it. You know, I have
so much music in my head that I I only
don't care to hear things for what? For pleasure? I
guess you'd call it. I mean I listened for information. Occasionally,
I hear things. You know, if I'm in out and
(04:21):
about and I hear something come on, I might log
in my head and listen to it, say, well that's
pretty good, that kind of thing. But I don't sit
around and listen to the radio. I don't, Like I said,
I'm not a very good audience around.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
When did you hit that saturation point where you're like,
I have enough music in my head that I don't
need to sit around listening anymore.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
It's hard to say. You know, I was when I
was a kid and a teenager or whatever, I was
a sponge. You know, all I did was was collect
records and listen to records and do it all that
kind of thing. I don't know, I guess it was
after a while where this became a way of life
and experiences and music in general, and life experiences started
(05:02):
building in my head. That's when I stopped listening outside
of well I need to sometimes. I obviously with life
from Darrels House, I listened to I listened to an
artist that's going to be on the show, and I
listened to their work and I try to get it
inside their head and figure out how they work. And
in that case, I am an audience. But I'm quite
(05:24):
sure when that all started happening, because.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Like when you were a young kid used to hang
out at like what wdas and just.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
It was a freak for music. I was the ultimate audience.
I listened to everything I was. I used to just
hang out at w BAS and in the upteen theater
places like that. I mean I just lived there, literally
lived there.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
What was it like getting signed to Elektra?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Early on, Well, Jack Holtzman was pretty cool. I have
to say I liked him. I was doing, you know,
working at Sigma Sound at Philly, and there was sort
of an offshoot of side Men and a producer named
Tommy Sellers that we after hours. He asked me if
I wanted to join it, and we used to, you know,
(06:13):
kind of come up with songs and do whatever. And
we got a body of work together. And then this
fellow that we all worked for named John Madera. He
wrote that the hop that's who he is. He wrote,
you don't own me, you know. He wrote those kind
of songs from a real old school Philly and he
started shopping this group of songs around and Electra bit
(06:36):
and they called it Gulliver And it wasn't a band
at all. It was just a bunch of we were
just writing songs. So I kind of went up there.
It was my first experience outside of Philly working with
or being involved in sort of a New York a
a big label. You know. The doors were run Electra
and everything, and it was an experience and interesting, but
(06:59):
I wasn't really it wasn't real. It wasn't honest. I
wasn't trying to shop my work or a band that
I was working with or anything like that. So it
was kind of kind of a phony situation really.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
But you did you get to meet Jack Oldsman who
ran Electra.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
He was in those days. Man, those kind of guys
were very hands on. Amah was the same. Absolutely. I
was in used to hang out, not a lot, but
I used to be in Jack Holtsman office and he
was really a nice guy. I have to say.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
But you didn't write any tunes for that for that record?
Correct Or Am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I actually did every Day is a Lovely Day. I
think it was called something like that, But I didn't.
My heart wasn't in it. I was just doing it,
you know, it was It wasn't really. I was doing
a lot of things to try and basically get in
the quote business and do things for money. You know.
I was doing commercials, I was I was doing sidebend stuff.
(07:55):
I was working with the game on Hugh team, playing
on records with those guys. I was doing anything I
could do really to make a few bucks. And that
electric thing was part of that whole scene, you know,
And I was sort of trying to find myself, to
tell you the truth.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
By the time you get to whole Oats, does that
start to feel like this is actually what I want
to do and this isn't just a way to get in.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
It was a way to get in, but it was
it was a little of both. I had met John
in school in Temple university and I needed a roommate.
We were both sort of suburban, not we weren't suburban,
that's the wrong word. But we lived out of town,
and so I started sharing apartments with him, and we
(08:45):
always did things separately. I think that's the whole mark
of anything I ever did with John Oates. He had
his own world. I have my own world, and proximity
pulled us together more than anything, even in those days.
So we decided, I remember the words, I said, let's
you know what, We'll share the stage. You do your thing,
(09:08):
I do my thing. And that was how the whole
Oats thing happened, because on the mailbox it's their haul
and Oates and we turned it into whole Loats, you know,
really really creative. And we used to play around Philly
in these little places. There was a place called World
Control Headquarters that held about eighty people, and we became
(09:31):
fixtures there and we got and we started getting a following,
and then we'd play other places that were similar and
we started doing that, and that was how the whole
relationship with Oates got started, by doing that and people
enjoying it what we were doing. And then we started
looking around from record deal after that.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Did you recognize at the time what work in with
like in a Reef?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Martin meant absolutely because I was used to working with
Tommy Bell and One Huff, so I knew what good
shit was. I knew immediately that a Reef was something special.
I mean I was I was familiar with his work
first of all. I mean, you know, he'd go from
Carly Simon to Aretha, to me to to you know,
(10:18):
even name it, to all these folks bands, all kinds
of things. He taught me fluency in a lot of
musical languages. I think I really learned that for the
first time from him. Before that, I was more like
just straight out of Philadelphia, you know, or at least
by version of it.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
What was his impression of your songs?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
He said that that I reminded him of an English
composer that I can never remember the name. There was
an obscureor English composer, and it was something about what
that was his frame of reference. But he saw something
in me that I think other people hadn't seen yet.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Did that encourage you at the time? Scare you?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
It didn't scare me, but it encouraged me because he
again he was He was an encourager, so he tried
to bring it out. He tried to he tried to
give me confidence. He egged me on, and he was
a cheerleader, you know he was. He had a great
sense of you, Burt too, But he kind of made
me feel legitimate in what I was, in what I
was thinking about and doing, and to be unafraid to
(11:24):
do things.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Do you remember an album like Abandoned Lunchonette, which is
the second Holland Oats record, was he worked with you
guys on Also the songs themselves sound leaps and bounds
more evolved past Whole Oats, but then also just the
way that they were put together or the way that
they were arranged or orchestrated, And how much of that
(11:49):
was just you guys progressing as artists and you progressing
as an artist, Darryl, And how much of that was
working with a reef and seeing the potential and the
songs that you were writing.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
The Whole Oats album was this grab bag of songs
that John Oates and I had written over the years,
like we were still in high school and college, you know,
we decided we're going to put him down one record.
To me, the whole Oats record was. It was a
Hall of Oats demo. It wasn't really a record. It
(12:21):
was in record form. It was sold as a record,
but it wasn't a record. It wasn't a thought a band. Eluchenet,
in my opinion, was our first record and at the times,
dictated that kind of production. You know. I think the
involvement of a guy named Chris Bond, Christopher Bond was
it can't be discounted with it because he well he
(12:43):
was a budding producer himself, and he was unlike me
or reef he was. He was totally a beatlemaniac, you know,
and and I think he was influenced by that kind
of late late period beatle music. And you can always
hear it in the songs where there'll be whatever I'm
doing or eas is doing, and then suddenly this kind
(13:05):
of beatless thing will be attached to it, you know,
which bugs me to type the truth. But then I
think if I don't know if it enhanced the album,
but I am very proud of that album, and it
was I think I think the body of work was
really interesting. I think I consider it to be the
first Hall of Notes record and maybe one of the
only real Hall of Notes records. What makes you say
(13:26):
that because we didn't really work together that much after
that we did that record, and then I and then
I we did that record with.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
War Babies album Todd Rundgren that was basically being Todd,
you know, and then after that it really got very separate,
where John wrote some songs and he'd.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Sing them, you'd hear them one there, and his voice
would be the lead singer, and then I wrote whatever
I wrote, and that was that was the majority of it,
and that that that that idea that continued all the
way through our career.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Really, so seventy two seventy three abandoned lunch and that
you guys are working actually together. What wasn't about that
time that allowed that to unfold that way?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I think a lot of it had to do with
we were new. It was us against the world because
we were still really kids, just out of college, and
we were sharing apartments, and we moved and we moved
from Philly to New York and we shared an apartment.
We were in the same house, so it was kind
of hard to not collaborate because you know, I'd be
doing something I'd heat hear it, or he'd be doing
(14:35):
like She's Gone, for example, which is a real hall
hall had Oats song fifty to fifty all the way.
He was playing that kind of chorus riff, like a
folky riff, and I said, well, that's cool, that's kind
of interesting, and I sat down on the piano and
I went, you know, you know, you know, I did that,
(14:57):
and that turned into She's Gone, and then we we
wrote the lyrics together, so that was a real haul
and Oats song.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Were you guys proud of that song when you at
the time, I mean, that is still to this day
it's just a jaw dropper.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I'm doing it was good, but I okay. And then
we took that to a reef and talk about jaw drop.
He is what jaw dropped and I was just playing
it on a Fender Rhoads and he's the one that
came up with that. And you know all about the
progression at the end of the song, which is really
(15:32):
off the wall really and that but that was his
idea completely.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
That's interesting because that progression sounds almost like I almost
feels like a signature at least of yours, Like I
feel like I, uh that change, that step up. I'm
just shocked to that came from from him.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, I learned it from him and decided it was
a good idea.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Because that's one of those moments you're listening to that
you're like, oh, there's the hollow notes that I think
the majority of people think of when they think hallo notes.
You know, just a casual listener.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I have a mixed feelings about modulation, but I like it.
Sometimes it's really effective, lifing the Shees Gone kind of song.
More more recently, I don't use so much modulation anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Why is that what causes the mixt No.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I just changed my taste changed.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
It's not an intellectual thing now, you know what it is?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Too many, too many shitty songs modulated. A modulation is
a trick to take something mediocre and make it sound
like it's better than it is in a lot of cases.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Was there ever the thought after abandon Lnchinette to do
something more on your own?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
That's what I decided that I wanted. It's a strange
thing I started for getting that sort of Okay, I
want to go out there and do this on myself.
At that period of time, but I was in an
environment with people who did not want to hear about it,
and they did everything they could over all those years
(17:04):
to stop me and stop my impulses to do that,
and try and keep me. He'd be aligned if you
want the truth to be, and keep me, keep me doing.
What they were making money.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
From was that label pressure.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
It was label management everything.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
When did your relationship with Tommy Mottola start?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
It started back around that whole Oats period. Really, he
was working in Chapel Music. He had an office the
size of the closet and we went up there with
John Madeira and we were doing something I don't even
know why. I guess John and was trying to lease
his liase, his publishing or something. And I got started
(17:48):
talking to Tommy, and Tommy wanted to be a manager,
you know, he had big ambitions, and I guess he
heard me play something or whatever, and he said, why
don't you do You know you don't want to stay
in Philadelphia, watch let me manage it. And I went, well,
that's interesting, okay, sure, And he kept me laughing for
(18:08):
about fifteen years, and then I woke up.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
When you write a song like Gino on the White album,
that's about Tommy Mattola right.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
I was speaking truth right there.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Did he find that funny at the time or he.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Acted like he was he thought it was funny. I
assume he was smart enough to realize what it was about.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
How'd you come up with the course on that? That's
such a strange.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Used to say shit like that, hard works being something
you know and lift fast style laughing. That's all he
did was laugh all the time. No herd him asking
nothing for nothing, and that's straight out of his mouth.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
We'll be right back with more from Daryl Hall after
the break. I want to talk about Todd run Green
and David Foster, because you do war Babies with Todd
run Gren, you do a couple of records with David Foster.
To hear you say that a reef kind of opens
you up and allows you to sort of put all
(19:10):
these different styles and kinds of music together. Makes sense
to me because it's very hard to make sense of
your career in the sense of it's so broad. It's
I mean, you make a record with the reef, David Foster,
Todd Rundgrend, Robert Fripp. I mean, like it's just it's
it's insane, it's different, it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Well, first of all, I I, as you can imagine,
I'm an adventurous soul and I and I'm not afraid.
I like to try things. I like to expand myself.
I like to put myself in in sometimes uncomfortable situations,
but usually just in creatively, creatively exciting situations and see
what comes out of it. Todd was the first one
(19:51):
that I did like that. I mean, I have very
mixed feelings about the War Babies album. I mean, I
think there was a lot of great ideas on it.
To me, it sounds like squirrels on acid. I mean,
I you know, it's just sorry. You know, people talk
about that album like and I go, okay, well, ld
you like. But at least it was an attempt to
(20:13):
break out of something and be open to the world,
be open to the musical world. And I tried to
keep that attitude. And I certainly kept that attitude when
I worked with Robert And that was the point, except
that I was more controlled within that. And I think
what I did with Robert was I was very happy with.
And David Foster that was another one that it was
(20:36):
kind of suggested. David was twenty two years old when
I met him, and he had done some things with Chicago.
I think we were the first bands that he were
really produced. We butted heads, but at the same time,
I think there was a lot of respect going on
there and on both sides, and we did some interesting things.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
When you're in a situation like that and you and
Oates maybe aren't as strong as a partnership as you
could be, and then and you're sort of button head
to the producer, all so that's got to feel kind
that's gotta be a bit isolating.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, well, I mean again, it was I was dealing
with it like it was my show, and it was
the principal characters was being the producers, and I knew
what I wanted. I knew what I wanted to do.
And a guy like David, he's a he's a He
comes from the autocratic school where he's a great musician
(21:35):
and he wants people to do it his way, and
I don't necessarily agree with that.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
All the time you mentioned you were really happy with
the Robert Fripp record, it blew my mind. I looked
back at the dates, and you guys recorded that the
month after he wraps Heroes with David Bowie and then
he's in the studio with you the next month and
you guys are making what's your first solo record?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I met Robert and Uh. I was actually playing a
gig in Toronto, and Robert happened to be there and
he came backstage and and we instantly clicked. And he
was right at the time going into he was very
involved with in the gurdgif philosophy thing, you know, and
and he was going away to retreat and he said,
(22:24):
I'm going to know, this is Robert's way. I'm going
to away to retreat for about six months, and then
when we come back, why don't you and I get
together and make some music together. And I said, sure, okay,
this sounds good. And he decided he was going to
move to New York City after the Gurdgiff thing and
sort of immerse himself in New York. And that's what
(22:47):
Heroes happened and all that, and he and I started
paling around together really and we recorded the Sacred Songs album.
I had a few songs and some of the songs
we recorded on the spot and just made up with
the spot and we did it in Town in New York.
And then he said, okay, well I want to make
a record. Let's do the same thing for my record.
(23:10):
So we made a record that became Exposure to Robert
record called Exposure, and that was my first setback because
we recorded and wrote the songs together, and my label
said that they wouldn't allow me to use my vocals
on the record. I finally got them to let me
(23:31):
use I think two or three, and he had the
task of trying to find someone or people and who
could copy or have some kind of reasonable try to
copy the vocals that I had come up with on
the record, which luckily he found some people who were
(23:51):
pretty good to do it. But Maya, was it frustrating.
I realized that I was really in trouble, that I
was really being locked into something that I didn't see
having an happy ending.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's wild that you say that, because it from the outside,
it doesn't fucking.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Keep on trucking. I had no choice. And here's the thing.
Not only did I keep on trucking because Robert was saying, Okay,
let's put a band together and start doing this for real.
And then suddenly I had a commitment to our SIA,
to Gwin and that's when Voices album happened, and the
whole fucking world blew up for for Hall of Oates,
(24:30):
and then I was really stuck in the in the
groove with the with the situation I was in.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Did you hear any of that stuff he had been
doing with Bowie that Frip had been doing with Bowie
around that time?
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah? Sure, I was pretty familiar with with that whole scene.
You know, I knew Brian Eno and and uh and Robert,
and I got to know Peter Gabriel and I worked
with lou Reid and we actually hauled us. Believe it
or not, we opened for a tour, a lou Reed
tour you did, so it's hard to believe what we did. Yeah,
(25:03):
and uh, and I knew David and uh, so, I
mean yeah, I'm was familiar with all this stuff that
was going on, right.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Because you guys opened for David Bowie too around seventy
two ish, really early.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
How was lou Reid on the tour?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
He was It was the Sally Can't Dance No More tour,
so I can't dance no more? Uh? And uh, he
was strange, man. I mean it's to say that it's
just to be obvious. I mean, Lou was lou Is
a very unusual man, and I kind of liked him.
I liked I liked his attitude. I liked he was
(25:43):
he just didn't give a fuck. You know, he was
a curmudgeon. But yet he wasn't you know? There was
a lot going on with Lou Reid that I think
more than people even realize. And I wound up living
in New York City. I live next door to him,
So I mean, not only was I did go on
tour with him, but I used to see him walk
(26:04):
his dog and things like that. And I wouldn't say
he was a friendly man, but you know.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Would would you talk though? Would you you know, keep
a cordial.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
As I'd say something to me, go away? How you doing?
Speaker 1 (26:19):
What do you make of a songwriting?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I was. I was just with Dave Stewart, and Dave
Stewart has a book of Lou Reed's lyrics, and I
was in between doing stuff that we were doing. This
just happened last week, uh, And I started reading his
lyrics and the early stuff, the development stuff. I mean,
it's good, it's it's just it's it's completely different than
(26:41):
anybody else. I mean, you take a song like I
don't Know Sister Ray or something like that. I mean,
the words are just amazing. It's slight, it's a slice
of light, but ugly life and a fucked up life.
But but it's you know, he he managed to create
a mood that was based on something that really was
and uh, I respect him.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I thought about him a bit when I was listening
back through your records because with Lou it always felt
like there was he knew how to write a pop
song and just subverted the lout of it, you know,
and it felt like you could do either thing, Like
it felt like you could write the perfect pop song,
you could write the most subversive weird thing. With Robert Free,
(27:27):
I mean it's like and everything in between, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, I mean that's that describes by the way my
brain works. I can I can do go both ways,
you know, or a lot of ways. I always say,
I speak a lot of musical languages.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, do you remember Do you remember any of water Wheel?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I remember, but I would never be able to sing
it because my voice saying near that high anymore? Man,
I hear you call me. I wrote that I was
just out of high school when I wrote that, you know,
the Philly scene it was. It was a really strange thing.
There was a big folk scene going on too, and
(28:11):
I heard I heard something that made me want to
write that. I don't remember what it was, and it
was it was basically written in that tradition, and it
was certainly different than anything I was doing. When I say,
working with game.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
On, it's interesting how nostalgic you can be just out
of high school.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah, I know, I think all these songs I wrote,
I seem to be obsessed with writing songs about nostalgia
and being older and all that when I was just
a kid. I don't know why I thought that way,
don't ask me.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, but to be able to write a song like
water Wheel wasn't a hit but sounds in so many
ways like a perfect pop song from that era of
when songs sounded like that. Then to be able to
go and do something like you know, I mean just
United States, you know, on voices, and then to do
(29:07):
I mean one of my favorites like I'm in a
Philly mood, you know, in like ninety three ninety four.
I mean that you have that kind of a range
and can write in all of these various styles, these
things that are just like deep and incredible is something else?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, well, I mean I won't ask me why I
can do that, but I seem to have the ability
to do it. My ears are open and I have
that facility. I guess I would never be able to
explain that.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And by the way, you just want to say you
put your voice down. But I watched the Frip live
at Daryll's house, you and Robert Fripp and your version
of NYC and why that you did probably what just
two years ago sounds better than the record still do that.
(29:58):
We should talk about Dave Stewart because you did a
record with him in the eighties. I think your third
or second solo record. You guys just did a record
together last year. D How did you guys come together?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Like many things, I met him, I just met him.
Somebody introduced me to him and they said, actually, somebody
said you guys should get together. I think you enjoy
each other's company. And he was I've lived in London
for a lot of time. I don't live there right now,
but I for years and years I lived in London.
So I went up to his house at the time
(30:32):
he was living in made of Bale and I went
in and we immediately started. I mean I literally went
into his house. He says, come downstairs, and we started
writing a song. That was the way I met Dave Stewart.
We've been friends ever since. You know, we just get along.
I don't know what it is. And he makes me
feel creatively, he's a very stimulating person. He makes me
(30:56):
feel alive. He's a gigantic bundle of energy, and he's
extremely smart and extremely full of ideas, like I can't
even tell you haven't. He never stops with him and.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
He's just fun to be with. And so over the
years we've we made that record, we made the Three
Hearts album, and we have a great time doing it.
And then over the years we've we've written a few
things and done things together, and he's played on some
of the records and done things with him. And more recently,
(31:33):
I told him about the place I live in the
Bahamas and he wound up buying a house down there,
so we're neighbors now. On top of it all, you know,
it's family. It's really become family with them.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
You might have figured out the life if you're moving
between New York, London and the bass.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
That's a good triangle.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
This might be the perfect triangle. His stuff with the
rhythmics is I mean his stuff in general, but I
mean that rhythmic stuff. To this day, I've been revisiting
it because I've been playing it for my kids, and
that stuff's mind blowing. Still.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
He wrote those songs you don't and that's his productions.
And he's a great singer, by the way, which doesn't hurt,
you know. And she sang the ship out of that stuff.
And yeah, I mean he he has a great body
of work.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
The sounds you guys got on the new record, like
the I mean the whole World's Better. Yeah, beautiful sound.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Yeah, that song I love. I love playing that recently
in my latest tours, I'm starting the show with that
because there's just something about it. And you know, when
you just bang that thing out, you know that you
(32:50):
know it just wow, it just makes you stand up.
That song. I wrote that song about one subject, and
I had most of that song and then it turned
into something else and it became anthemic. And that was
Dave's idea to put the you know you know in
(33:13):
the end, and we just had people come in, friends
from the from the island, they come in and sang.
So it became a real communal, athemic kind of song.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
What was what was the song originally about?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
It was about, like many of my songs, I had
a very tempestuous relationship with with the my late wife
and I don't know she was so moody with what
I would hear her saying in the kitchen everything got better.
That's where it started.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Is there an early version of that that you can
share a bit of.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
No, not really, because I had the chorus and that's
when that was. That was the original. And then I
had I had the chords of the song, but I
didn't have the words. And that's when it turned into
something else, you know, when when I was with Dave
and I had a melody without any words to go
with it, and and then we you know, I, with
(34:09):
his major help, I wrote the lyrics.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Would would you mind giving us a little of the courses?
Because you gave us a bit and it's it's it's
too good to the choruses.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Or when notts again? When youse snots again?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Here it is.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
It's a moving song. It's a moving song, you know,
it comes from a real emotion. Everything all right, comes
from something real. And people ask me, what you know,
your new new musician in the world, what do you do?
I said, you got to believe it, you gotta you
gotta live it. You got It's got to be something
that that almost makes you makes you want to cry inside,
(34:58):
or does make you cry inside?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Uh? Just me playing that, I just got a feeling
in my throat because it brought back the memories of
when I wrote it. Uh, yeah like that?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, you know you mentioned your late wife. Sarah Allen
Jena Allen were incredible inspirations and collaborators crowded out along
your career.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Both Sarah and Jana. They played such a large part
in the song from the eighties. Jana originated private Eyes,
I mean, and she originated kiss on My List, I mean,
things like that. I mean, they were complete collaborations. And Sarah,
it was it is a really good lyricist, really good lyricist,
(35:44):
and she contributed a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Did they figure how to channel that from being around you?
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Or I think so? I don't know, if I just
gave it off. I mean, they were both musical people,
and especially Jana, I mean, Janna is a guitar player
and a singer and all that. Sandy is a singer,
but you know, more just a music lover. And yeah,
I think proximity had to do with it. And I
don't know, something rubbed off and they just came up
(36:12):
with really good ideas and they would throw them out
and just to compliment things really add to the quality
of whatever it is that I was coming up with.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
How would Jana bring like a private eyes to you?
Speaker 3 (36:24):
She actually made a demo of that. The chorus was there,
but then I kind of fleshed out the verses. I changed.
You know, that's a pretty complicated chord progression. All the
chords and so and that that had to do with
me and I was doing that, but she came up
with private eyes. Watch didn't you they see your every move?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
She came up with that, sir, can you play through
a bit of those that chord progression? You were?
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Okay, let's see here. I can't believe it. I have
to think about it, watching watching you, watch, watching you,
(37:12):
watch you.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Man. So she had those chords or.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
She came up with the chords, Well, okay, uh watch
and watch that's me you can tell right, read that.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
She but her was a ship.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
She she came up with that.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Wow, what a gift.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yeah, well she had one and talk about you know,
I don't know man's tragedy sometimes. I mean she died
really young. She died, she got the leukemia and died.
She was thirty nine years old. And I'm still misser.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Did that impact you and Sarah are working together? Oh?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Sarah was. But did it impact it? I can't say
it didn't. It kind of put disruption in our family. Yeah,
that kind of personal stuff. Would you put that into music?
I do all the time. I'm not afraid to put
it all out there. The most obvious one is the
(38:16):
one that d album and the new album one I'd
rather be a fool. I mean, soar the end of
that song. I'm just saying it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
When you put something like that down, does it ever
give you pause.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I'm not afraid. I put my emotions right out there.
Rather be a fool. It is a very direct version
of that. You can't look at my music without here
and the reality of it. It's just it's all in there.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Has it ever caused maybe not problems that has ever.
Has it ever caused friction with people that you're close to.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I think I've made some people sad. I'm saying that
with a smirk of my face, which is terrible, So
I don't feel smirky about it. But I don't know.
I mean, the truth hurts sometimes, and that doesn't mean
you can't speak the truth.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
I had a conversation with Michael McDonald about a year ago,
maybe a year and a half ago, and he told
a story about I think it was I can't remember
which Doobe's record it was now, but one of the
records wasn't doing so well and one of the black
an hours at Warner said like, this should go on,
(39:28):
this should go on black radio, you know, living on
the fault line, that's what it was, and setting a
black radio. Black radio loved it and kind of saved
that version of the band. But it occurred to me, like,
you know, like the Doobiest, there was a number of
groups like that that they kind of got eventually pigeonholed
as yacht rock, but really what it was was just
(39:51):
there were just R and B guys. They're just making
R and B records, and they were white, and.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
So this is something I don't understand. First of all,
yacht rock was a fucking joke by two jerk offs
in California, and suddenly it became a genre. And I
don't even understand it, never understood it. And I totally man,
I'm glad you say that it's just R and B.
It's just another with some maybe some jazz in there.
(40:18):
It's mellow R and B. It's it's it's it's it's
smooth R and B. Yeah, I don't see what the
yacht part is.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, but it seemed like, you know, it seemed like
like with the Doobies, for instance, like they like, because
they were white guys, they didn't know where to or
not all of them, but the majority of Michael McDonald's white,
and it's like they didn't know where to put it.
It's like, well, I can't go on black rad because
these guys aren't black, but you know, the white audience
they want to hear, you know, whatever they want. But
it doesn't feel like you guys necessarily ever had that
(40:48):
issue from my vantage point. I don't know if you
feel that way.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
I was more of a pioneer. I mean my music.
When I was I had a group called the Tumtones,
and and I had a you know, pretty like a
top twenty hit in Philadelphia, you know one W Das
and Sarah's Smile broke on on on R and B
on on Black Race. It it had to make its
way to pop radio. That's how Hollanolds started. That was
(41:15):
that's our origins. And uh, people misjudged us and and
and and uh because they couldn't label us, and they
always they came up with all this kind of crap
soft rock and yacht rock and all this other nonsense
and none of the none of it really describes anything
that I do, really, yeah, or doesn't describe it any
(41:35):
anybody does.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I didn't realize there were a Smile broke on on
black radio first.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, out of out of Ohio RB station, Ohio, not Dayton,
but some place like that. Uh. And and then it
spread through the ARMBA charts. And it wasn't until after
it was a it was a gigantic record in the
arm Bach charts that it went to. Uh, pop radio
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I mean that is that is a hell of a
soulful record. And listening to a recently, I've always played guitar,
so I was always taken by the guitar part, and
I love vocals, so I always thinking about the vocal,
hadn't paid proper attention to the bass until recently. But
I think it was Leland scar on there.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
I think it was Uh. The guy that played that
amazing guitar solo was Christopher Bond And that is one
of the most beautiful, amazing introduction guitar solos ever written.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
It really is. I mean, the notes played, in the
way it's played, that the way he approaches it.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
What an amazing guy. He was a very unusual guy.
He's unfortunately that anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Your vocal runs on there too, are are? I mean
just your your choices vocally are?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
I mean I was just being again just I don't
know that that that that was a real That was reality, man.
I wrote that song like a postcard to Sandy and
Sarah Allen and oh there it is.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with
Daryl Hall. How would you approach in the studio like
a song like a lone just thinking of that album
now like alone too long?
Speaker 3 (43:11):
That was it?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
That's a John song, right, That's a John song. How
much would you involve yourself with John songs?
Speaker 3 (43:17):
I guess you know I would do all all the
backgrounds and everything. I would fletch out and John would
have the song. And this goes with any of his songs,
so there were on a whole of its record like
had I Known You Better Than or something like that,
and and alone too Long? And I would come up
with a vocal arrangement that would accompany his song and
(43:39):
do all the parts sing. If it was a three
part harmony, I'd sing three parts. And I mean, when
you listen to all of Oats records, that's all me
singing like kiss on my lists, that's all me sing
in the backgrounds. Occasionally John would sing a part on
a record, and sometimes he would I would sing the
parts and then tell him to sing over one of
(44:01):
the parts. That's how we did it, you know I
did it. Excuse me?
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Was there anything in your view special about your blends?
Just the way your voices would blend well, the.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Reason to blend, because it was all me. If I
can blend with myself, then.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
When might you, though, decide? John, sing this? I got
something for you? Sing this? Like? When would that occur
to you?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Because I wouldn't add is tambre to the to the background.
It was. It was one of those things. I mean,
John has a very distinct voice, and and it's not
a bad voice either. Hey I'm not putting that down.
But and and on stage you could tell we were
working together. I mean it was you wouldn't know in
a million years, but he was more of a take
(44:47):
dictation kind of a singer, you know, like sing this.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I mentioned I'm in a Philly Mood. That's one of
those songs that makes me wish I was actually from Philly,
which I could say I'm in a Philly Mood that
whole record, But I mean that that song is incredible. Borderline,
you have a Mariah sing backgrounds on a song and
co wrote a song, yeah, she wrote what was that?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
One?
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Helped me find a Way and the.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Way to your Heart? Yeah, yeah, that was a sorry
wrote with Mariah. Yet Philly Mood is one of my
favorite songs I ever wrote. I play that every show.
I love singing it. I like playing it. It really
describes the way I feel and the way I felt
and again the scenes that I was creating. And boy
is that real. That's a very emotional song to me,
(45:37):
kind of like Tony Bennett's I Left my Heart in
San Francisco. It's the mood, man, It's that's we mood.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
You worked with the couple of folks from the Family
stand which I feel like that group is sort of
maybe the lost of time of it. But they were really,
really cool.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
They were really cool. I don't know why that didn't
really stick around, you know, they and and Peter and
Jeff that's Peter Lord and Jeff Smith. That was a
really interesting combo that we had going That was a
talk about Philly mood. You know. Uh, Peter was really good.
He egged me on, you know, he really He brought
a certain thing out of me that I don't think
anybody anybody else has, you know. And I think that
(46:17):
that sol a Loan record sort of reflects that, and
he reflects the move the thing that he brought out
in me.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Do you think you can put into words what he
brought out of you?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
No, I can't. It's it's just something that's certain kind
of jazz soul thing that I occasionally do. But brought
that to the front.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
When you did. It helped me find a way to
heart with Mariah. I think emotions maybe had been a
hit at that point, But were you very familiar with her.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, it was Tommy Motola's girlfriend, right, I mean,
my god. And she actually came up with with she
came up with the course of that and she and
she played it for me and then went from there.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
So that song started with her.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, she she sent me that, she sent me a
tape to help me find a way to your heart,
and then I I kind of enhanced it.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I always feel like people sleep on Mariah as a songwriter,
you know, as someone who can write a song.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I think Mariah is a very talented person, as we
all know. And uh, but I think that they she
got into that old diva thing and and you know,
with the big voice and and all over the place voice,
and but that kind of takes away from the source
of it, you know, the fact that she can put
(47:37):
together a good song. She's she's good. Man. Mariah's happening.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, are you gonna do any more Live from Darryl's House?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
That going one on Tuesday? And I'm not gonna tell
you with who because I never do. But yeah, that's
that's an ongoing project. I've been doing it for a
long time, and uh, I've decided instead of doing a
whole season So I'm just gonna do occasional ones, maybe
in groups of one and two, three or something like that,
(48:07):
and just keep adding to my YouTube.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Know what does that add to your life, your creative
life doing that show?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
I love it. I loved life from Darryl's House. I
love doing it. It's the most stimulating experience that you
can imagine, because we don't do any rehearsing, only the
most rudimentary of do. We know what's happening, and so
everybody is completely on their toes doing it for the
first time. There's an artist in there that may or
(48:35):
may not be comfortable, and I have to make them comfortable.
Sometimes they're you know, sometimes there's especially the heritage artists,
they're stuck in their ways and I have to unstick them.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
There's there's so many things going on, and then we
have those amazing you know, conversations around dinner and the
whole thing. It's an amazing experience. Usually takes me two
days to recover from one.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Have you ever come out of one feeling like, oh,
maybe I should maybe we could do a whole record together,
you know, Well, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Mean, I I've got a lot of people. I mean
what I've been doing instead of making records together, like okay,
I'm going out on the road Glenn Tilbrook, uh, and
that I'm going to be working with him all year,
I think, off and on, and he's a he's an
LFDH left Darrel's House to alumni at this point, you know.
So I think that I came up with this idea
(49:29):
based on the how we work together that way, and
there's anomber. You know, there's a lot of artists like that.
Howard Jones is another one that I've done. Todd obviously,
I mean, that's that's what I do on stage Now,
I do a version of life from Daryl's House.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
And that's maybe more rewarded because I just think, I
mean that that that you can get and most especially
heritage artists, that you can get them to come and
play in that way that you do and get them comfortable,
but also sort of be on the edge a bit
of we don't exactly know what we're doing, but we
know exactly you know what we're doing. Like that's like,
(50:02):
that's that's it. I mean, you're basically producing these people
and that's not something that I think they're always accustomed to,
you know.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I am. I am doing exactly that on the spot,
and you're right, people aren't accustomed to it. Oddly enough,
the brand new artists are the easiest ones because they
don't know what's going on. They're just like puppy dogs.
They're like, let's go, let's do it. You know. You
take a guy who's been around for as long as me,
and he's like, am I doing the right thing? Here?
(50:27):
My fucking up? You know, this isn't the way I
always sing this song.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
I mean, it's interesting even seeing The Fruit. I just
watched it. I didn't really know that Robert Frupp had
been on that. I didn't know why how I missed
that one. But I was watching that last week, and
even he seemed a little you know, me as adventurous
as they come, but even he seemed a little a
little nervous. You know.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Well, Robert is a very controlled person, but with an
amazing sense of humor. I got to add, But but
I know he was he was good, he was fine.
I think he just was really he wanted to He'd
been wanting to do this for a long time, is
what it was. Is We've been trying to get together
for years and it finally happened and maybe that that showed, you.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Know, and you guys do I think it's NYC And
why that has that like just insane opening riff?
Speaker 3 (51:14):
You know it? How did he come up with that?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
He's insane and he's like, you know, I haven't done
this in forty something year, you know, just like oh this,
that's the level of his genius is that he's just
these things are just coming out of them.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
You know, He's unbelievable, is what he is.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
If I wrote that riff, I would never stop playing it.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
He just over that shit. That's just another riff for
you know.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Were you into King Crimson in the day, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, I was very much into that to his version
of progressive rock. Well, I was into him. This is
what I was into. I mean, you know, we didn't
do red From on the show, and I'm so proud
of my band. They just played that now. Roberts said,
I have never been in any organization that ever played
(52:05):
that song that it didn't take at least three days
to learn it, and these guys play it. They just
listened to it at home by themselves. We got together
and we played the motherbucker, you know. I mean, it's
one band I got, but that comes, you know, my
love for King King Crimson comes from back then. The
Lark's tunging aspect and all that stuff. I mean, I
heard the I heard the power and the soul in it,
(52:27):
and I heard the the Stravinsky in it. I heard
everything in it. But I think that he's a very
unique musician.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
I don't want to keep it too much longer, but
I do want to return to I feel like maybe
I glossed over Christopher Bond. We mentioned him a couple
of times during the conversation, so he comes in during
the band in lunchinette. Was it a reef that brought
him in?
Speaker 3 (52:47):
No, he was. He's a Philly guy. He was. He
was in our band, John and I had our little
quartete and he was.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
He was.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
He was one of the guys.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
He was in your bad.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
I didn't realize he was in yeah, in the in
the beginning, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Someone else from Philly. I was just scarious what happened
to Jim Helmer, who was the drummer Gulliver played on
Whole Oats incredible drum parts on that record.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
I know it was good. I lost track at Jim.
I lost track of all those guys. I know, Tim
Moore was, he was a songwriter, guitar player. He was
a woodstock. That's all I know. But I don't know anything.
I have no idea what happened to Jim.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
Just wanted, well I have you. I just that always
bugged me. Just didn't know what happened though.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Definitely the first person to ever asked me about Jim Milan,
which is cool.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Just bat and clean up here. I do want to
ask you about G. E. Smith too. How important do
you feel he was to that version of Holland Oates.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
I think he added his very large personality to things.
I think that his guitar work on the records that
he played on on holl Of Oats Records, well it
was really really exceptional. I did. I think he did
a lot of things that were really amazing. He didn't
get the way he added the ge sound to it.
(54:07):
You know, I mean, I'm again a great guitar.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Player, and that the ge sound wasn't really you know,
uh a thing that I'd been on records like that before,
you know, I mean, you guys really were the first
to get him like that. Yeah, oh, give me a.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Brand new He was straight out of He's from Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. Yeah, Yeah,
and I met him when he had just moved out
of there. Basically, did you just.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Let him go or was there much shaping? Would you
talk through parts with him?
Speaker 3 (54:35):
Or I'd let him go, But I would let him
go within a controlled situation, you know, I mean and
tell him what I thought. And if he did something
I didn't like, I'd say tell him that too. You know,
he usually did the right thing. Was that a good
relationship overall? Or we had a we had a Leslie
good relationship because he's he's a He's a strange guy, man.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
I mean he.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
I don't know how to put it. Personality, His personality
of mine weren't exactly in line. That's the best way
I'll put it. I could put it.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
I think that's a way that everyone can understand. Yeah,
it doesn't diminish the talent. Yeah, at this point, set
list wise, when you go do dates, how are you
picking a set list?
Speaker 3 (55:22):
I do a little. Well, I'm I'm going to try
and emphasize the d album, but I think I'm going
to do about four songs from that. That's that's that's
my plan. Well, I'm already I've already been doing that.
And other than that, I play things from whatever, you know,
from whatever my history is. And there's certain songs that
(55:46):
you have to play. I mean, you know, I have
to play Sarah Smile, which is fine with me. You know,
I mix it up, I play Philly Mood, I play
all kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Well, Darryl Hall, thank you so much for for for
talking about all this. I mean, that's a hell of
a musical history. So I mean, thank you, well, thanks
for having me. Manis description, you'll find a link to
a playlist of our favorite Darryl Hall tracks. Be sure
to check out YouTube dot com slash broken Record to
see all of our video interviews, and be sure to
(56:18):
follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You
can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
is produced by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric
Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. Broken
Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love
this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.
(56:40):
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you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and
review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by
Kenny Beats.
Speaker 3 (56:57):
I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin. Hey, this is Justin Richmond from the Broken Record podcast.
Join me this June for a live taping of Broken
Record at the Tribeca Festival, where I'll be in conversation
with Infinity Song, a New York based soft rock band
comprised of four siblings who will also be doing a
couple of songs for us. You'll hear the artist and
a career spanning conversation about their inspirations and dynamic styles.
(00:39):
We'll be at the SVA Theater on June twelve at
eight thirty pm. Defind tickets. Visit tribecafilm dot com slash
Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash Broken Record.
Hope to see there. Dare I say? Darylhall is one
of the great pop songwriters of our time as half
of the duo Hall and Oates, who was all over
(01:00):
the charts in the seventies and eighties from Sarah Smile
to Rich Girl to You Make My Dreams and Man Eater,
But beyond the hits and the pop chart is a gifted,
soulful writer and player of all sorts of songs. In
this episode of Broken Record, I talk with Daryl Hall
about his early days entrenched in Phillies armb scene, his
stint on Electra records with his band Gulliver that found
(01:22):
him being label mates with The Doors, how he wrote
classics like She's Gone Off, Abandoned, Leschenette, his partially shelved
album with Robert Fripp, and his latest album d a
collaboration between him and Dave Stewart of the Rhythmics. This
is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode is
(01:44):
brought to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet
challenges head on so you can explore with confidence. Adventure
Seekers and risk takers can explore the full Defender lineup
at land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's my conversation with Daryl Hall.
How you doing, I'm doing well.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I'm doing okay? I overworked. I'm overworked, but I'm good.
Got it.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You gotta say some time to relax.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah. One, I'd like to know when that is.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Do you do you find being busy or not having
it enough to do impacts your songwriting, your creativity.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, it's a funny thing. I'm either too busy or
I'm a champion at the bit it's one or the other.
I'm either sitting here reading my book and go on,
oh fuck, you know what am I doing? Or I'm
overworked and I'm might pull my hair out.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know what books do you typically read?
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Oh? I read Jesus depending on my you know, if
I just want to relax, I read, you know, like
Michael Connelly books and things like that, James L. Roy,
you know. But you know I read for information. I
read constantly. Is what I do?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Is fiction a source of inspiration for you at all?
And when it comes to music.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Who is writing is a source of inspiration? A turn
of phrase, I might twist it around my own way,
adapt it to something I'm thinking about, use it in
a song. I do that all the time. I hardly ever,
actually basically never pull something directly from an author, but
I'll use it in in some some form that is
(03:26):
part of the expression that I'm trying to achieve, in
a verse or even maybe sometimes in a chorus.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Is there an example that comes to mind? Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, like say it isn't So that's an obvious one,
you know, It's just it's just part of my and
also I log it in my head. I might read
read a phrase and remember it. At some point, it'll
come back to me as I'm as I'm looking for
looking for something in a lyric.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
How often do you listen to music?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I am not a good audience. I don't really listen
to music. I I make it. You know, I have
so much music in my head that I I only
don't care to hear things for what? For pleasure? I
guess you'd call it. I mean I listened for information. Occasionally,
I hear things. You know, if I'm in out and
(04:21):
about and I hear something come on, I might log
in my head and listen to it, say, well that's
pretty good, that kind of thing. But I don't sit
around and listen to the radio. I don't, Like I said,
I'm not a very good audience around.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
When did you hit that saturation point where you're like,
I have enough music in my head that I don't
need to sit around listening anymore.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
It's hard to say. You know, I was when I
was a kid and a teenager or whatever, I was
a sponge. You know, all I did was was collect
records and listen to records and do it all that
kind of thing. I don't know, I guess it was
after a while where this became a way of life
and experiences and music in general, and life experiences started
(05:02):
building in my head. That's when I stopped listening outside
of well I need to sometimes. I obviously with life
from Darrels House, I listened to I listened to an
artist that's going to be on the show, and I
listened to their work and I try to get it
inside their head and figure out how they work. And
in that case, I am an audience. But I'm quite
(05:24):
sure when that all started happening, because.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Like when you were a young kid used to hang
out at like what wdas and just.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
It was a freak for music. I was the ultimate audience.
I listened to everything I was. I used to just
hang out at w BAS and in the upteen theater
places like that. I mean I just lived there, literally
lived there.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
What was it like getting signed to Elektra?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Early on, Well, Jack Holtzman was pretty cool. I have
to say I liked him. I was doing, you know,
working at Sigma Sound at Philly, and there was sort
of an offshoot of side Men and a producer named
Tommy Sellers that we after hours. He asked me if
I wanted to join it, and we used to, you know,
(06:13):
kind of come up with songs and do whatever. And
we got a body of work together. And then this
fellow that we all worked for named John Madera. He
wrote that the hop that's who he is. He wrote,
you don't own me, you know. He wrote those kind
of songs from a real old school Philly and he
started shopping this group of songs around and Electra bit
(06:36):
and they called it Gulliver And it wasn't a band
at all. It was just a bunch of we were
just writing songs. So I kind of went up there.
It was my first experience outside of Philly working with
or being involved in sort of a New York a
a big label. You know. The doors were run Electra
and everything, and it was an experience and interesting, but
(06:59):
I wasn't really it wasn't real. It wasn't honest. I
wasn't trying to shop my work or a band that
I was working with or anything like that. So it
was kind of kind of a phony situation really.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
But you did you get to meet Jack Oldsman who
ran Electra.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
He was in those days. Man, those kind of guys
were very hands on. Amah was the same. Absolutely. I
was in used to hang out, not a lot, but
I used to be in Jack Holtsman office and he
was really a nice guy. I have to say.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
But you didn't write any tunes for that for that record?
Correct Or Am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I actually did every Day is a Lovely Day. I
think it was called something like that, But I didn't.
My heart wasn't in it. I was just doing it,
you know, it was It wasn't really. I was doing
a lot of things to try and basically get in
the quote business and do things for money. You know.
I was doing commercials, I was I was doing sidebend stuff.
(07:55):
I was working with the game on Hugh team, playing
on records with those guys. I was doing anything I
could do really to make a few bucks. And that
electric thing was part of that whole scene, you know,
And I was sort of trying to find myself, to
tell you the truth.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
By the time you get to whole Oats, does that
start to feel like this is actually what I want
to do and this isn't just a way to get in.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
It was a way to get in, but it was
it was a little of both. I had met John
in school in Temple university and I needed a roommate.
We were both sort of suburban, not we weren't suburban,
that's the wrong word. But we lived out of town,
and so I started sharing apartments with him, and we
(08:45):
always did things separately. I think that's the whole mark
of anything I ever did with John Oates. He had
his own world. I have my own world, and proximity
pulled us together more than anything, even in those days.
So we decided, I remember the words, I said, let's
you know what, We'll share the stage. You do your thing,
(09:08):
I do my thing. And that was how the whole
Oats thing happened, because on the mailbox it's their haul
and Oates and we turned it into whole Loats, you know,
really really creative. And we used to play around Philly
in these little places. There was a place called World
Control Headquarters that held about eighty people, and we became
(09:31):
fixtures there and we got and we started getting a following,
and then we'd play other places that were similar and
we started doing that, and that was how the whole
relationship with Oates got started, by doing that and people
enjoying it what we were doing. And then we started
looking around from record deal after that.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Did you recognize at the time what work in with
like in a Reef?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Martin meant absolutely because I was used to working with
Tommy Bell and One Huff, so I knew what good
shit was. I knew immediately that a Reef was something special.
I mean I was I was familiar with his work
first of all. I mean, you know, he'd go from
Carly Simon to Aretha, to me to to you know,
(10:18):
even name it, to all these folks bands, all kinds
of things. He taught me fluency in a lot of
musical languages. I think I really learned that for the
first time from him. Before that, I was more like
just straight out of Philadelphia, you know, or at least
by version of it.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
What was his impression of your songs?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
He said that that I reminded him of an English
composer that I can never remember the name. There was
an obscureor English composer, and it was something about what
that was his frame of reference. But he saw something
in me that I think other people hadn't seen yet.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Did that encourage you at the time? Scare you?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
It didn't scare me, but it encouraged me because he
again he was He was an encourager, so he tried
to bring it out. He tried to he tried to
give me confidence. He egged me on, and he was
a cheerleader, you know he was. He had a great
sense of you, Burt too, But he kind of made
me feel legitimate in what I was, in what I
was thinking about and doing, and to be unafraid to
(11:24):
do things.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Do you remember an album like Abandoned Lunchonette, which is
the second Holland Oats record, was he worked with you
guys on Also the songs themselves sound leaps and bounds
more evolved past Whole Oats, but then also just the
way that they were put together or the way that
they were arranged or orchestrated, And how much of that
(11:49):
was just you guys progressing as artists and you progressing
as an artist, Darryl, And how much of that was
working with a reef and seeing the potential and the
songs that you were writing.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
The Whole Oats album was this grab bag of songs
that John Oates and I had written over the years,
like we were still in high school and college, you know,
we decided we're going to put him down one record.
To me, the whole Oats record was. It was a
Hall of Oats demo. It wasn't really a record. It
(12:21):
was in record form. It was sold as a record,
but it wasn't a record. It wasn't a thought a band. Eluchenet,
in my opinion, was our first record and at the times,
dictated that kind of production. You know. I think the
involvement of a guy named Chris Bond, Christopher Bond was
it can't be discounted with it because he well he
(12:43):
was a budding producer himself, and he was unlike me
or reef he was. He was totally a beatlemaniac, you know,
and and I think he was influenced by that kind
of late late period beatle music. And you can always
hear it in the songs where there'll be whatever I'm
doing or eas is doing, and then suddenly this kind
(13:05):
of beatless thing will be attached to it, you know,
which bugs me to type the truth. But then I
think if I don't know if it enhanced the album,
but I am very proud of that album, and it
was I think I think the body of work was
really interesting. I think I consider it to be the
first Hall of Notes record and maybe one of the
only real Hall of Notes records. What makes you say
(13:26):
that because we didn't really work together that much after
that we did that record, and then I and then
I we did that record with.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
War Babies album Todd Rundgren that was basically being Todd,
you know, and then after that it really got very separate,
where John wrote some songs and he'd.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Sing them, you'd hear them one there, and his voice
would be the lead singer, and then I wrote whatever
I wrote, and that was that was the majority of it,
and that that that that idea that continued all the
way through our career.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Really, so seventy two seventy three abandoned lunch and that
you guys are working actually together. What wasn't about that
time that allowed that to unfold that way?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I think a lot of it had to do with
we were new. It was us against the world because
we were still really kids, just out of college, and
we were sharing apartments, and we moved and we moved
from Philly to New York and we shared an apartment.
We were in the same house, so it was kind
of hard to not collaborate because you know, I'd be
doing something I'd heat hear it, or he'd be doing
(14:35):
like She's Gone, for example, which is a real hall
hall had Oats song fifty to fifty all the way.
He was playing that kind of chorus riff, like a
folky riff, and I said, well, that's cool, that's kind
of interesting, and I sat down on the piano and
I went, you know, you know, you know, I did that,
(14:57):
and that turned into She's Gone, and then we we
wrote the lyrics together, so that was a real haul
and Oats song.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Were you guys proud of that song when you at
the time, I mean, that is still to this day
it's just a jaw dropper.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I'm doing it was good, but I okay. And then
we took that to a reef and talk about jaw drop.
He is what jaw dropped and I was just playing
it on a Fender Rhoads and he's the one that
came up with that. And you know all about the
progression at the end of the song, which is really
(15:32):
off the wall really and that but that was his
idea completely.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
That's interesting because that progression sounds almost like I almost
feels like a signature at least of yours, Like I
feel like I, uh that change, that step up. I'm
just shocked to that came from from him.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, I learned it from him and decided it was
a good idea.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Because that's one of those moments you're listening to that
you're like, oh, there's the hollow notes that I think
the majority of people think of when they think hallo notes.
You know, just a casual listener.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I have a mixed feelings about modulation, but I like it.
Sometimes it's really effective, lifing the Shees Gone kind of song.
More more recently, I don't use so much modulation anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Why is that what causes the mixt No.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I just changed my taste changed.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
It's not an intellectual thing now, you know what it is?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Too many, too many shitty songs modulated. A modulation is
a trick to take something mediocre and make it sound
like it's better than it is in a lot of cases.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Was there ever the thought after abandon Lnchinette to do
something more on your own?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
That's what I decided that I wanted. It's a strange
thing I started for getting that sort of Okay, I
want to go out there and do this on myself.
At that period of time, but I was in an
environment with people who did not want to hear about it,
and they did everything they could over all those years
(17:04):
to stop me and stop my impulses to do that,
and try and keep me. He'd be aligned if you
want the truth to be, and keep me, keep me doing.
What they were making money.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
From was that label pressure.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
It was label management everything.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
When did your relationship with Tommy Mottola start?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
It started back around that whole Oats period. Really, he
was working in Chapel Music. He had an office the
size of the closet and we went up there with
John Madeira and we were doing something I don't even
know why. I guess John and was trying to lease
his liase, his publishing or something. And I got started
(17:48):
talking to Tommy, and Tommy wanted to be a manager,
you know, he had big ambitions, and I guess he
heard me play something or whatever, and he said, why
don't you do You know you don't want to stay
in Philadelphia, watch let me manage it. And I went, well,
that's interesting, okay, sure, And he kept me laughing for
(18:08):
about fifteen years, and then I woke up.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
When you write a song like Gino on the White album,
that's about Tommy Mattola right.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
I was speaking truth right there.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Did he find that funny at the time or he.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Acted like he was he thought it was funny. I
assume he was smart enough to realize what it was about.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
How'd you come up with the course on that? That's
such a strange.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Used to say shit like that, hard works being something
you know and lift fast style laughing. That's all he
did was laugh all the time. No herd him asking
nothing for nothing, and that's straight out of his mouth.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
We'll be right back with more from Daryl Hall after
the break. I want to talk about Todd run Green
and David Foster, because you do war Babies with Todd
run Gren, you do a couple of records with David Foster.
To hear you say that a reef kind of opens
you up and allows you to sort of put all
(19:10):
these different styles and kinds of music together. Makes sense
to me because it's very hard to make sense of
your career in the sense of it's so broad. It's
I mean, you make a record with the reef, David Foster,
Todd Rundgrend, Robert Fripp. I mean, like it's just it's
it's insane, it's different, it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Well, first of all, I I, as you can imagine,
I'm an adventurous soul and I and I'm not afraid.
I like to try things. I like to expand myself.
I like to put myself in in sometimes uncomfortable situations,
but usually just in creatively, creatively exciting situations and see
what comes out of it. Todd was the first one
(19:51):
that I did like that. I mean, I have very
mixed feelings about the War Babies album. I mean, I
think there was a lot of great ideas on it.
To me, it sounds like squirrels on acid. I mean,
I you know, it's just sorry. You know, people talk
about that album like and I go, okay, well, ld
you like. But at least it was an attempt to
(20:13):
break out of something and be open to the world,
be open to the musical world. And I tried to
keep that attitude. And I certainly kept that attitude when
I worked with Robert And that was the point, except
that I was more controlled within that. And I think
what I did with Robert was I was very happy with.
And David Foster that was another one that it was
(20:36):
kind of suggested. David was twenty two years old when
I met him, and he had done some things with Chicago.
I think we were the first bands that he were
really produced. We butted heads, but at the same time,
I think there was a lot of respect going on
there and on both sides, and we did some interesting things.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
When you're in a situation like that and you and
Oates maybe aren't as strong as a partnership as you
could be, and then and you're sort of button head
to the producer, all so that's got to feel kind
that's gotta be a bit isolating.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, well, I mean again, it was I was dealing
with it like it was my show, and it was
the principal characters was being the producers, and I knew
what I wanted. I knew what I wanted to do.
And a guy like David, he's a he's a He
comes from the autocratic school where he's a great musician
(21:35):
and he wants people to do it his way, and
I don't necessarily agree with that.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
All the time you mentioned you were really happy with
the Robert Fripp record, it blew my mind. I looked
back at the dates, and you guys recorded that the
month after he wraps Heroes with David Bowie and then
he's in the studio with you the next month and
you guys are making what's your first solo record?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I met Robert and Uh. I was actually playing a
gig in Toronto, and Robert happened to be there and
he came backstage and and we instantly clicked. And he
was right at the time going into he was very
involved with in the gurdgif philosophy thing, you know, and
and he was going away to retreat and he said,
(22:24):
I'm going to know, this is Robert's way. I'm going
to away to retreat for about six months, and then
when we come back, why don't you and I get
together and make some music together. And I said, sure, okay,
this sounds good. And he decided he was going to
move to New York City after the Gurdgiff thing and
sort of immerse himself in New York. And that's what
(22:47):
Heroes happened and all that, and he and I started
paling around together really and we recorded the Sacred Songs album.
I had a few songs and some of the songs
we recorded on the spot and just made up with
the spot and we did it in Town in New York.
And then he said, okay, well I want to make
a record. Let's do the same thing for my record.
(23:10):
So we made a record that became Exposure to Robert
record called Exposure, and that was my first setback because
we recorded and wrote the songs together, and my label
said that they wouldn't allow me to use my vocals
on the record. I finally got them to let me
(23:31):
use I think two or three, and he had the
task of trying to find someone or people and who
could copy or have some kind of reasonable try to
copy the vocals that I had come up with on
the record, which luckily he found some people who were
(23:51):
pretty good to do it. But Maya, was it frustrating.
I realized that I was really in trouble, that I
was really being locked into something that I didn't see
having an happy ending.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's wild that you say that, because it from the outside,
it doesn't fucking.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Keep on trucking. I had no choice. And here's the thing.
Not only did I keep on trucking because Robert was saying, Okay,
let's put a band together and start doing this for real.
And then suddenly I had a commitment to our SIA,
to Gwin and that's when Voices album happened, and the
whole fucking world blew up for for Hall of Oates,
(24:30):
and then I was really stuck in the in the
groove with the with the situation I was in.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Did you hear any of that stuff he had been
doing with Bowie that Frip had been doing with Bowie
around that time?
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah? Sure, I was pretty familiar with with that whole scene.
You know, I knew Brian Eno and and uh and Robert,
and I got to know Peter Gabriel and I worked
with lou Reid and we actually hauled us. Believe it
or not, we opened for a tour, a lou Reed
tour you did, so it's hard to believe what we did. Yeah,
(25:03):
and uh, and I knew David and uh, so, I
mean yeah, I'm was familiar with all this stuff that
was going on, right.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Because you guys opened for David Bowie too around seventy
two ish, really early.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
How was lou Reid on the tour?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
He was It was the Sally Can't Dance No More tour,
so I can't dance no more? Uh? And uh, he
was strange, man. I mean it's to say that it's
just to be obvious. I mean, Lou was lou Is
a very unusual man, and I kind of liked him.
I liked I liked his attitude. I liked he was
(25:43):
he just didn't give a fuck. You know, he was
a curmudgeon. But yet he wasn't you know? There was
a lot going on with Lou Reid that I think
more than people even realize. And I wound up living
in New York City. I live next door to him,
So I mean, not only was I did go on
tour with him, but I used to see him walk
(26:04):
his dog and things like that. And I wouldn't say
he was a friendly man, but you know.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Would would you talk though? Would you you know, keep
a cordial.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
As I'd say something to me, go away? How you doing?
Speaker 1 (26:19):
What do you make of a songwriting?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I was. I was just with Dave Stewart, and Dave
Stewart has a book of Lou Reed's lyrics, and I
was in between doing stuff that we were doing. This
just happened last week, uh, And I started reading his
lyrics and the early stuff, the development stuff. I mean,
it's good, it's it's just it's it's completely different than
(26:41):
anybody else. I mean, you take a song like I
don't Know Sister Ray or something like that. I mean,
the words are just amazing. It's slight, it's a slice
of light, but ugly life and a fucked up life.
But but it's you know, he he managed to create
a mood that was based on something that really was
and uh, I respect him.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I thought about him a bit when I was listening
back through your records because with Lou it always felt
like there was he knew how to write a pop
song and just subverted the lout of it, you know,
and it felt like you could do either thing, Like
it felt like you could write the perfect pop song,
you could write the most subversive weird thing. With Robert Free,
(27:27):
I mean it's like and everything in between, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, I mean that's that describes by the way my
brain works. I can I can do go both ways,
you know, or a lot of ways. I always say,
I speak a lot of musical languages.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, do you remember Do you remember any of water Wheel?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I remember, but I would never be able to sing
it because my voice saying near that high anymore? Man,
I hear you call me. I wrote that I was
just out of high school when I wrote that, you know,
the Philly scene it was. It was a really strange thing.
There was a big folk scene going on too, and
(28:11):
I heard I heard something that made me want to
write that. I don't remember what it was, and it
was it was basically written in that tradition, and it
was certainly different than anything I was doing. When I say,
working with game.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
On, it's interesting how nostalgic you can be just out
of high school.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah, I know, I think all these songs I wrote,
I seem to be obsessed with writing songs about nostalgia
and being older and all that when I was just
a kid. I don't know why I thought that way,
don't ask me.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, but to be able to write a song like
water Wheel wasn't a hit but sounds in so many
ways like a perfect pop song from that era of
when songs sounded like that. Then to be able to
go and do something like you know, I mean just
United States, you know, on voices, and then to do
(29:07):
I mean one of my favorites like I'm in a
Philly mood, you know, in like ninety three ninety four.
I mean that you have that kind of a range
and can write in all of these various styles, these
things that are just like deep and incredible is something else?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, well, I mean I won't ask me why I
can do that, but I seem to have the ability
to do it. My ears are open and I have
that facility. I guess I would never be able to
explain that.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And by the way, you just want to say you
put your voice down. But I watched the Frip live
at Daryll's house, you and Robert Fripp and your version
of NYC and why that you did probably what just
two years ago sounds better than the record still do that.
(29:58):
We should talk about Dave Stewart because you did a
record with him in the eighties. I think your third
or second solo record. You guys just did a record
together last year. D How did you guys come together?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Like many things, I met him, I just met him.
Somebody introduced me to him and they said, actually, somebody
said you guys should get together. I think you enjoy
each other's company. And he was I've lived in London
for a lot of time. I don't live there right now,
but I for years and years I lived in London.
So I went up to his house at the time
(30:32):
he was living in made of Bale and I went
in and we immediately started. I mean I literally went
into his house. He says, come downstairs, and we started
writing a song. That was the way I met Dave Stewart.
We've been friends ever since. You know, we just get along.
I don't know what it is. And he makes me
feel creatively, he's a very stimulating person. He makes me
(30:56):
feel alive. He's a gigantic bundle of energy, and he's
extremely smart and extremely full of ideas, like I can't
even tell you haven't. He never stops with him and.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
He's just fun to be with. And so over the
years we've we made that record, we made the Three
Hearts album, and we have a great time doing it.
And then over the years we've we've written a few
things and done things together, and he's played on some
of the records and done things with him. And more recently,
(31:33):
I told him about the place I live in the
Bahamas and he wound up buying a house down there,
so we're neighbors now. On top of it all, you know,
it's family. It's really become family with them.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
You might have figured out the life if you're moving
between New York, London and the bass.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
That's a good triangle.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
This might be the perfect triangle. His stuff with the
rhythmics is I mean his stuff in general, but I
mean that rhythmic stuff. To this day, I've been revisiting
it because I've been playing it for my kids, and
that stuff's mind blowing. Still.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
He wrote those songs you don't and that's his productions.
And he's a great singer, by the way, which doesn't hurt,
you know. And she sang the ship out of that stuff.
And yeah, I mean he he has a great body
of work.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
The sounds you guys got on the new record, like
the I mean the whole World's Better. Yeah, beautiful sound.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Yeah, that song I love. I love playing that recently
in my latest tours, I'm starting the show with that
because there's just something about it. And you know, when
you just bang that thing out, you know that you
(32:50):
know it just wow, it just makes you stand up.
That song. I wrote that song about one subject, and
I had most of that song and then it turned
into something else and it became anthemic. And that was
Dave's idea to put the you know you know in
(33:13):
the end, and we just had people come in, friends
from the from the island, they come in and sang.
So it became a real communal, athemic kind of song.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
What was what was the song originally about?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
It was about, like many of my songs, I had
a very tempestuous relationship with with the my late wife
and I don't know she was so moody with what
I would hear her saying in the kitchen everything got better.
That's where it started.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Is there an early version of that that you can
share a bit of.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
No, not really, because I had the chorus and that's
when that was. That was the original. And then I
had I had the chords of the song, but I
didn't have the words. And that's when it turned into
something else, you know, when when I was with Dave
and I had a melody without any words to go
with it, and and then we you know, I, with
(34:09):
his major help, I wrote the lyrics.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Would would you mind giving us a little of the courses?
Because you gave us a bit and it's it's it's
too good to the choruses.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Or when notts again? When youse snots again?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Here it is.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
It's a moving song. It's a moving song, you know,
it comes from a real emotion. Everything all right, comes
from something real. And people ask me, what you know,
your new new musician in the world, what do you do?
I said, you got to believe it, you gotta you
gotta live it. You got It's got to be something
that that almost makes you makes you want to cry inside,
(34:58):
or does make you cry inside?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Uh? Just me playing that, I just got a feeling
in my throat because it brought back the memories of
when I wrote it. Uh, yeah like that?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, you know you mentioned your late wife. Sarah Allen
Jena Allen were incredible inspirations and collaborators crowded out along
your career.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Both Sarah and Jana. They played such a large part
in the song from the eighties. Jana originated private Eyes,
I mean, and she originated kiss on My List, I mean,
things like that. I mean, they were complete collaborations. And Sarah,
it was it is a really good lyricist, really good lyricist,
(35:44):
and she contributed a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Did they figure how to channel that from being around you?
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Or I think so? I don't know, if I just
gave it off. I mean, they were both musical people,
and especially Jana, I mean, Janna is a guitar player
and a singer and all that. Sandy is a singer,
but you know, more just a music lover. And yeah,
I think proximity had to do with it. And I
don't know, something rubbed off and they just came up
(36:12):
with really good ideas and they would throw them out
and just to compliment things really add to the quality
of whatever it is that I was coming up with.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
How would Jana bring like a private eyes to you?
Speaker 3 (36:24):
She actually made a demo of that. The chorus was there,
but then I kind of fleshed out the verses. I changed.
You know, that's a pretty complicated chord progression. All the
chords and so and that that had to do with
me and I was doing that, but she came up
with private eyes. Watch didn't you they see your every move?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
She came up with that, sir, can you play through
a bit of those that chord progression? You were?
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Okay, let's see here. I can't believe it. I have
to think about it, watching watching you, watch, watching you,
(37:12):
watch you.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Man. So she had those chords or.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
She came up with the chords, Well, okay, uh watch
and watch that's me you can tell right, read that.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
She but her was a ship.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
She she came up with that.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Wow, what a gift.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yeah, well she had one and talk about you know,
I don't know man's tragedy sometimes. I mean she died
really young. She died, she got the leukemia and died.
She was thirty nine years old. And I'm still misser.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Did that impact you and Sarah are working together? Oh?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Sarah was. But did it impact it? I can't say
it didn't. It kind of put disruption in our family. Yeah,
that kind of personal stuff. Would you put that into music?
I do all the time. I'm not afraid to put
it all out there. The most obvious one is the
(38:16):
one that d album and the new album one I'd
rather be a fool. I mean, soar the end of
that song. I'm just saying it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
When you put something like that down, does it ever
give you pause.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I'm not afraid. I put my emotions right out there.
Rather be a fool. It is a very direct version
of that. You can't look at my music without here
and the reality of it. It's just it's all in there.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Has it ever caused maybe not problems that has ever.
Has it ever caused friction with people that you're close to.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I think I've made some people sad. I'm saying that
with a smirk of my face, which is terrible, So
I don't feel smirky about it. But I don't know.
I mean, the truth hurts sometimes, and that doesn't mean
you can't speak the truth.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
I had a conversation with Michael McDonald about a year ago,
maybe a year and a half ago, and he told
a story about I think it was I can't remember
which Doobe's record it was now, but one of the
records wasn't doing so well and one of the black
an hours at Warner said like, this should go on,
(39:28):
this should go on black radio, you know, living on
the fault line, that's what it was, and setting a
black radio. Black radio loved it and kind of saved
that version of the band. But it occurred to me, like,
you know, like the Doobiest, there was a number of
groups like that that they kind of got eventually pigeonholed
as yacht rock, but really what it was was just
(39:51):
there were just R and B guys. They're just making
R and B records, and they were white, and.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
So this is something I don't understand. First of all,
yacht rock was a fucking joke by two jerk offs
in California, and suddenly it became a genre. And I
don't even understand it, never understood it. And I totally man,
I'm glad you say that it's just R and B.
It's just another with some maybe some jazz in there.
(40:18):
It's mellow R and B. It's it's it's it's it's
smooth R and B. Yeah, I don't see what the
yacht part is.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, but it seemed like, you know, it seemed like
like with the Doobies, for instance, like they like, because
they were white guys, they didn't know where to or
not all of them, but the majority of Michael McDonald's white,
and it's like they didn't know where to put it.
It's like, well, I can't go on black rad because
these guys aren't black, but you know, the white audience
they want to hear, you know, whatever they want. But
it doesn't feel like you guys necessarily ever had that
(40:48):
issue from my vantage point. I don't know if you
feel that way.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
I was more of a pioneer. I mean my music.
When I was I had a group called the Tumtones,
and and I had a you know, pretty like a
top twenty hit in Philadelphia, you know one W Das
and Sarah's Smile broke on on on R and B
on on Black Race. It it had to make its
way to pop radio. That's how Hollanolds started. That was
(41:15):
that's our origins. And uh, people misjudged us and and
and and uh because they couldn't label us, and they
always they came up with all this kind of crap
soft rock and yacht rock and all this other nonsense
and none of the none of it really describes anything
that I do, really, yeah, or doesn't describe it any
(41:35):
anybody does.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I didn't realize there were a Smile broke on on
black radio first.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, out of out of Ohio RB station, Ohio, not Dayton,
but some place like that. Uh. And and then it
spread through the ARMBA charts. And it wasn't until after
it was a it was a gigantic record in the
arm Bach charts that it went to. Uh, pop radio
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I mean that is that is a hell of a
soulful record. And listening to a recently, I've always played guitar,
so I was always taken by the guitar part, and
I love vocals, so I always thinking about the vocal,
hadn't paid proper attention to the bass until recently. But
I think it was Leland scar on there.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
I think it was Uh. The guy that played that
amazing guitar solo was Christopher Bond And that is one
of the most beautiful, amazing introduction guitar solos ever written.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
It really is. I mean, the notes played, in the
way it's played, that the way he approaches it.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
What an amazing guy. He was a very unusual guy.
He's unfortunately that anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Your vocal runs on there too, are are? I mean
just your your choices vocally are?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
I mean I was just being again just I don't
know that that that that was a real That was reality, man.
I wrote that song like a postcard to Sandy and
Sarah Allen and oh there it is.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with
Daryl Hall. How would you approach in the studio like
a song like a lone just thinking of that album
now like alone too long?
Speaker 3 (43:11):
That was it?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
That's a John song, right, That's a John song. How
much would you involve yourself with John songs?
Speaker 3 (43:17):
I guess you know I would do all all the
backgrounds and everything. I would fletch out and John would
have the song. And this goes with any of his songs,
so there were on a whole of its record like
had I Known You Better Than or something like that,
and and alone too Long? And I would come up
with a vocal arrangement that would accompany his song and
(43:39):
do all the parts sing. If it was a three
part harmony, I'd sing three parts. And I mean, when
you listen to all of Oats records, that's all me
singing like kiss on my lists, that's all me sing
in the backgrounds. Occasionally John would sing a part on
a record, and sometimes he would I would sing the
parts and then tell him to sing over one of
(44:01):
the parts. That's how we did it, you know I
did it. Excuse me?
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Was there anything in your view special about your blends?
Just the way your voices would blend well, the.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Reason to blend, because it was all me. If I
can blend with myself, then.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
When might you, though, decide? John, sing this? I got
something for you? Sing this? Like? When would that occur
to you?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Because I wouldn't add is tambre to the to the background.
It was. It was one of those things. I mean,
John has a very distinct voice, and and it's not
a bad voice either. Hey I'm not putting that down.
But and and on stage you could tell we were
working together. I mean it was you wouldn't know in
a million years, but he was more of a take
(44:47):
dictation kind of a singer, you know, like sing this.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I mentioned I'm in a Philly Mood. That's one of
those songs that makes me wish I was actually from Philly,
which I could say I'm in a Philly Mood that
whole record, But I mean that that song is incredible. Borderline,
you have a Mariah sing backgrounds on a song and
co wrote a song, yeah, she wrote what was that?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
One?
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Helped me find a Way and the.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Way to your Heart? Yeah, yeah, that was a sorry
wrote with Mariah. Yet Philly Mood is one of my
favorite songs I ever wrote. I play that every show.
I love singing it. I like playing it. It really
describes the way I feel and the way I felt
and again the scenes that I was creating. And boy
is that real. That's a very emotional song to me,
(45:37):
kind of like Tony Bennett's I Left my Heart in
San Francisco. It's the mood, man, It's that's we mood.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
You worked with the couple of folks from the Family
stand which I feel like that group is sort of
maybe the lost of time of it. But they were really,
really cool.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
They were really cool. I don't know why that didn't
really stick around, you know, they and and Peter and
Jeff that's Peter Lord and Jeff Smith. That was a
really interesting combo that we had going That was a
talk about Philly mood. You know. Uh, Peter was really good.
He egged me on, you know, he really He brought
a certain thing out of me that I don't think
anybody anybody else has, you know. And I think that
(46:17):
that sol a Loan record sort of reflects that, and
he reflects the move the thing that he brought out
in me.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Do you think you can put into words what he
brought out of you?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
No, I can't. It's it's just something that's certain kind
of jazz soul thing that I occasionally do. But brought
that to the front.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
When you did. It helped me find a way to
heart with Mariah. I think emotions maybe had been a
hit at that point, But were you very familiar with her.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, it was Tommy Motola's girlfriend, right, I mean,
my god. And she actually came up with with she
came up with the course of that and she and
she played it for me and then went from there.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
So that song started with her.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, she she sent me that, she sent me a
tape to help me find a way to your heart,
and then I I kind of enhanced it.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I always feel like people sleep on Mariah as a songwriter,
you know, as someone who can write a song.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I think Mariah is a very talented person, as we
all know. And uh, but I think that they she
got into that old diva thing and and you know,
with the big voice and and all over the place voice,
and but that kind of takes away from the source
of it, you know, the fact that she can put
(47:37):
together a good song. She's she's good. Man. Mariah's happening.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, are you gonna do any more Live from Darryl's House?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
That going one on Tuesday? And I'm not gonna tell
you with who because I never do. But yeah, that's
that's an ongoing project. I've been doing it for a
long time, and uh, I've decided instead of doing a
whole season So I'm just gonna do occasional ones, maybe
in groups of one and two, three or something like that,
(48:07):
and just keep adding to my YouTube.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Know what does that add to your life, your creative
life doing that show?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
I love it. I loved life from Darryl's House. I
love doing it. It's the most stimulating experience that you
can imagine, because we don't do any rehearsing, only the
most rudimentary of do. We know what's happening, and so
everybody is completely on their toes doing it for the
first time. There's an artist in there that may or
(48:35):
may not be comfortable, and I have to make them comfortable.
Sometimes they're you know, sometimes there's especially the heritage artists,
they're stuck in their ways and I have to unstick them.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
There's there's so many things going on, and then we
have those amazing you know, conversations around dinner and the
whole thing. It's an amazing experience. Usually takes me two
days to recover from one.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Have you ever come out of one feeling like, oh,
maybe I should maybe we could do a whole record together,
you know, Well, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Mean, I I've got a lot of people. I mean
what I've been doing instead of making records together, like okay,
I'm going out on the road Glenn Tilbrook, uh, and
that I'm going to be working with him all year,
I think, off and on, and he's a he's an
LFDH left Darrel's House to alumni at this point, you know.
So I think that I came up with this idea
(49:29):
based on the how we work together that way, and
there's anomber. You know, there's a lot of artists like that.
Howard Jones is another one that I've done. Todd obviously,
I mean, that's that's what I do on stage Now,
I do a version of life from Daryl's House.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
And that's maybe more rewarded because I just think, I
mean that that that you can get and most especially
heritage artists, that you can get them to come and
play in that way that you do and get them comfortable,
but also sort of be on the edge a bit
of we don't exactly know what we're doing, but we
know exactly you know what we're doing. Like that's like,
(50:02):
that's that's it. I mean, you're basically producing these people
and that's not something that I think they're always accustomed to,
you know.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I am. I am doing exactly that on the spot,
and you're right, people aren't accustomed to it. Oddly enough,
the brand new artists are the easiest ones because they
don't know what's going on. They're just like puppy dogs.
They're like, let's go, let's do it. You know. You
take a guy who's been around for as long as me,
and he's like, am I doing the right thing? Here?
(50:27):
My fucking up? You know, this isn't the way I
always sing this song.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
I mean, it's interesting even seeing The Fruit. I just
watched it. I didn't really know that Robert Frupp had
been on that. I didn't know why how I missed
that one. But I was watching that last week, and
even he seemed a little you know, me as adventurous
as they come, but even he seemed a little a
little nervous. You know.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Well, Robert is a very controlled person, but with an
amazing sense of humor. I got to add, But but
I know he was he was good, he was fine.
I think he just was really he wanted to He'd
been wanting to do this for a long time, is
what it was. Is We've been trying to get together
for years and it finally happened and maybe that that showed, you.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Know, and you guys do I think it's NYC And
why that has that like just insane opening riff?
Speaker 3 (51:14):
You know it? How did he come up with that?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
He's insane and he's like, you know, I haven't done
this in forty something year, you know, just like oh this,
that's the level of his genius is that he's just
these things are just coming out of them.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
You know, He's unbelievable, is what he is.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
If I wrote that riff, I would never stop playing it.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
He just over that shit. That's just another riff for
you know.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Were you into King Crimson in the day, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, I was very much into that to his version
of progressive rock. Well, I was into him. This is
what I was into. I mean, you know, we didn't
do red From on the show, and I'm so proud
of my band. They just played that now. Roberts said,
I have never been in any organization that ever played
(52:05):
that song that it didn't take at least three days
to learn it, and these guys play it. They just
listened to it at home by themselves. We got together
and we played the motherbucker, you know. I mean, it's
one band I got, but that comes, you know, my
love for King King Crimson comes from back then. The
Lark's tunging aspect and all that stuff. I mean, I
heard the I heard the power and the soul in it,
(52:27):
and I heard the the Stravinsky in it. I heard
everything in it. But I think that he's a very
unique musician.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
I don't want to keep it too much longer, but
I do want to return to I feel like maybe
I glossed over Christopher Bond. We mentioned him a couple
of times during the conversation, so he comes in during
the band in lunchinette. Was it a reef that brought
him in?
Speaker 3 (52:47):
No, he was. He's a Philly guy. He was. He
was in our band, John and I had our little
quartete and he was.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
He was.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
He was one of the guys.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
He was in your bad.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
I didn't realize he was in yeah, in the in
the beginning, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Someone else from Philly. I was just scarious what happened
to Jim Helmer, who was the drummer Gulliver played on
Whole Oats incredible drum parts on that record.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
I know it was good. I lost track at Jim.
I lost track of all those guys. I know, Tim
Moore was, he was a songwriter, guitar player. He was
a woodstock. That's all I know. But I don't know anything.
I have no idea what happened to Jim.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
Just wanted, well I have you. I just that always
bugged me. Just didn't know what happened though.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Definitely the first person to ever asked me about Jim Milan,
which is cool.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Just bat and clean up here. I do want to
ask you about G. E. Smith too. How important do
you feel he was to that version of Holland Oates.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
I think he added his very large personality to things.
I think that his guitar work on the records that
he played on on holl Of Oats Records, well it
was really really exceptional. I did. I think he did
a lot of things that were really amazing. He didn't
get the way he added the ge sound to it.
(54:07):
You know, I mean, I'm again a great guitar.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Player, and that the ge sound wasn't really you know,
uh a thing that I'd been on records like that before,
you know, I mean, you guys really were the first
to get him like that. Yeah, oh, give me a.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Brand new He was straight out of He's from Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. Yeah, Yeah,
and I met him when he had just moved out
of there. Basically, did you just.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Let him go or was there much shaping? Would you
talk through parts with him?
Speaker 3 (54:35):
Or I'd let him go, But I would let him
go within a controlled situation, you know, I mean and
tell him what I thought. And if he did something
I didn't like, I'd say tell him that too. You know,
he usually did the right thing. Was that a good
relationship overall? Or we had a we had a Leslie
good relationship because he's he's a He's a strange guy, man.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
I mean he.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
I don't know how to put it. Personality, His personality
of mine weren't exactly in line. That's the best way
I'll put it. I could put it.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
I think that's a way that everyone can understand. Yeah,
it doesn't diminish the talent. Yeah, at this point, set
list wise, when you go do dates, how are you
picking a set list?
Speaker 3 (55:22):
I do a little. Well, I'm I'm going to try
and emphasize the d album, but I think I'm going
to do about four songs from that. That's that's that's
my plan. Well, I'm already I've already been doing that.
And other than that, I play things from whatever, you know,
from whatever my history is. And there's certain songs that
(55:46):
you have to play. I mean, you know, I have
to play Sarah Smile, which is fine with me. You know,
I mix it up, I play Philly Mood, I play
all kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Well, Darryl Hall, thank you so much for for for
talking about all this. I mean, that's a hell of
a musical history. So I mean, thank you, well, thanks
for having me. Manis description, you'll find a link to
a playlist of our favorite Darryl Hall tracks. Be sure
to check out YouTube dot com slash broken Record to
see all of our video interviews, and be sure to
(56:18):
follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You
can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
is produced by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric
Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. Broken
Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love
this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.
(56:40):
Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content
and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.
Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if
you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and
review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by
Kenny Beats.
Speaker 3 (56:57):
I'm justin Richmond.
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