Ep. 15: Is Twilight Smut? (The Fifty Shades of Grey Episode)

WE’RE NOMINATED FOR BEST OF MADISON (again)! Vote for us here by June 30th: https://www.channel3000.com/madison-magazine/best-of-madison/best-of-madison-2023-vote-now/article_81bb44d4-9dae-11ed-8778-831b6146a870.html#//

Much like Twilight, Fifty Shades of Grey spawned a renaissance for women across the globe; except instead of plastic Halloween fangs and Edward Cullen barbies selling out on shelves, it was blindfolds, human leashes and handcuffs. Even with its Mormon backbone, Twilight somehow had enough sultry moments to inspire author EL James to create the best selling erotica of all time, additionally inspiring a new wave of conversations about kink and pleasure in the mainstream. We take on the Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy and its vampy origins.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
That was. Actually, I can'tbelieve we're putting this into the world.
Listen, it's already been in theworld. We're just you know, I
can't believe we're doing this. Um, I know what you are. It's
my heart's in recovery and recovery.See you. I simply cannot look at
an apple the same way anymore.See you. My light just had such

(00:23):
a grip on so many people.See you, see it. That's why
Hard Recovery Club podcast. If youwere mine, Oh my, what would
I do to be his? He'sthe only man who has ever set the
blood racing through my body. Yeah. He's so antagonizing too. He's difficult.

(00:44):
It's complicated and confusing. One minutehe rebuts me, and the next
he sends me fourteen thousand dollars books, then tracks me like a stalker.
And for all that I've spent thenight in his hotel suite and I feel
safe protected, he cares enough tocome and rescue me from some mistakenly perceived
danger. He's not a dark knightat all, but a white knight in
shiny, dazzling armor. A classicromantic hero. Welcome back to say it

(01:11):
out loud, The Twihart Recovery Clubpodcast. My name is Jenni from Z
one and four Medicine. My nameis Alissa. I edit the news and
as you can maybe tell, thatquote was not from Twilight, but we'll
talk about that. They might aswell have been honestly, dazzle laves.
Um. Okay, so what dowe have to talk about? First of
all, this is our second timerecording this because honestly, the first one

(01:34):
just didn't work out. And that'sokay, we're back, um, so
we need to go over the samehousekeeping. We got Twilight tattoos, which
is cool. They are cool.I love it. I just like that
we're forever tied to Twilight and there'slike no other way to describe it.

(01:55):
When people are like, oh,what is that, it's like, I
got that's my teeth because you couldsay it's just like a funny Halloween tattoo.
Really, but that is lying,you know, I'm not above lying,
right, Yeah? Which one's moreembarrassing? So maybe we'll post that
picture on Twitter one day. Also, we have been nominated for Best for

(02:17):
a second year in a row,which is super exciting. The part that
is less exciting is that you onlyhave four days left to vote for us,
because we maybe put this episode offa little bit. Yes, whip
sees, but I think you know, we're all procrastinators in this world,
so we had to re record thisepisode. What do you want from me?

(02:38):
Yeah, but I will put thelink in our show notes and please
go vote for us for best LocalPodcast. And the website's kind of really
not great to navigate, but it'sokay because you only have to vote one
time. Just make it work once. I've also tentatively said, like,
you know, is it really importantthat we win this? I'm not really,

(03:01):
but if we did get first place, we've agreed that we will look
into making merch. Yes, sovote for us. I forgot that.
Um. And that's the housekeeping fortoday because we gotta get straight into it.
It's Twilight smut thoughts. Oh okay, we're asking. Um. I

(03:22):
think it clearly has inspired some.I think it's in itself. It is
not, but it has like thetension you would need to get there,
Ah, the tension you would need. Um. I'm just gonna say yes,
nothing else. So this is thefifty Shades of Gray episode, and
we've talked about doing this for along time because it would be funny.

(03:45):
But also, if you are oneof our parental figures, turn this off.
I just don't think it's right foryou. Maybe the next episode,
right, all right, so let'stalk about fifty Shades of Gray. Here
the synopsis. When literature student AnnaStagia Steele goes to interview young entrepreneur Christian
Gray, she encounters a man whois beautiful, brilliant, and intimidating.

(04:09):
The unworldly, innocent Anna is startledto realize she wants his man, and
despite his enigmatic reserve, find sheis desperate to get close to him.
Unable to resist Anna's quiet, beauty, wit, and independent spirit, Gray
admits he wants her too, buton his own terms. So we both
watched this movie. We did notread the book because like, I don't,

(04:30):
I can't, I don't have timefor that. But we both watched
the movie at the same time fromour separate apartments and just texted each other
throughout it. And then you justwatched the second movie last night, right,
Yeah, So our delay was kindof helpful actually, because initially who
I think it was on Hulu onlyhad the first movie, and then they

(04:53):
recently have or now it's on Maxand they recently just added the next two,
so the whole trilogy streamable. Yeah, so if you want to watch
it right, here you go.But about fifty Shades of Great It was
published in twenty eleven. The firstmovie was released in twenty fifteen. Before
becoming a novelist, Erica Mitchell wasa British TV producer who was writing fanfic

(05:15):
in the midst of a midlife crisis. We know Erica Mitchell as author E.
L. James. Why she usesa different name I don't know,
but she actually originally wrote Fifty Shadesas a Twilight fan fiction series called Master
of the Universe under her other penname snow Queen Ice Dragon. I think

(05:36):
that one should have lived on.Yeah, that's pretty good. There were
originally one hundred and fifteen chapters thatwas divided into two parts, so it's
a big boy. It was toosmutty for the fan Fix site she originally
published on, so she put iton her own website before a publisher approached
her and was like, hey,what if you wrote this to be an

(05:59):
original person? And here we are, and here we are. Yeah.
The book was published with a smallcompany before going very viral, which helped
James to secure a movie deal withthe Universal after a bidding war for the
rights. I wanted to make thisMaster of the Universe. God. There's
six total books and movies in thefifty Shades of a fifty Shades Universe,

(06:23):
fifty Shades of Gray, fifty ShadesDarker, and fifty Shades Free. And
then she also made books called Gray, Darker and Freed, which are told
from Christians perspective. Oh, wedidn't know this the first time, yea.
That is so interesting, which isinteresting because she actually beat Stephanie to
it because obviously we know Midnight Sunwas published like two years ago. Midnightsun

(06:46):
Sevney was writing for a long timeand E. L. James I think
knew she was writing those because thewhole thing with Midnight Sun was like she
wrote it a long time ago andthen part of it got leaked and then
she was like, fine, I'mjust not going to publish it, and
then years later she was like aSo EL James did beat her to that,
but I do think she was copyingStephanie in theory. I don't know.

(07:09):
Yeah, but she did all threethat's yeah, she did do three.
U Fifty Shades has set a recordin the UK as the fastest selling
paper book of all time, andin the US the series sold two copies
every second. Stephanie Meyer, whenasked about Fifty Shades of Gray, said,
that's not really my genre, notmy thing. Good on her,
she's doing well, that's great womenwomen. I feel like that's an okay

(07:33):
answer. The movie also broke boxoffice records and earned over five hundred seventy
million dollars worldwide. For a lotof people, it was an introduction to
b DSM and erotic fiction, atleast in the mainstream. It was deemed
like the like the Housewife book.I think something like that housewife porn.

(07:53):
Also, El James wanted Robert Pattinsonto play Christian Gray in the movies,
but he turned it down because hewas like, I don't really want to
keep but the fitness routine, whichis fair. I think it's hilarious that
that is his only reason, orit's probably just the reason he put out
into the world. I think he'slike that. But I think that would
have driven like Twilight Hands insane.I think that would have been really tough
though, yeah, it would havebeen weird. But then you're really blurring

(08:16):
the lines. Right, So,yeah, that's generally what the book's about.
A Twilight fan bic. And there'sa little bit I learned. There's
a little bit of discourse on whetheror not the E. L. James
stole the idea or not. We'lltalk about that a little later, but
for now, we got to getinto sum reviews. Let's start with good
Reads. So on good Reads,fifty Shades of Gray has a three point

(08:39):
six six out of five, whichis higher than Twilight, which has a
three point six four, believe itor not. Also, I neither of
us have read Fifty Shades of Gray, but I think we've each like jokingly
have read segments of it. Right, Yes, I was saying fifty shades.
I think when it first got popular, I was in Target and I

(09:01):
had like gone with my family,so my parents were somewhere else. And
it's like when you're just browsing throughthe books and then you like flip up
into a page and see what's goingon and then yeah, yeah, my
friends and I used to do thislike joke in high school where we would
go to Barnes and Noble and we'dlike find the book in a secret little
corner, and we'd like open toa random page and read it out loud

(09:22):
and see who could, like breakthe fastest. So that's what I did
for fun in my school. Butyeah, higher rated than Twilight, which
is a little odd to me.But you know, I haven't read it,
can't say much. But Mel,who has read it from good Reads,
gave it one star. She said, garbage, absolutely horrifying, utter
trash, a waste of trees,bookshelf space, and precious, oh so

(09:45):
very fucking precious brain cells. Honestly, why is this even published? Okay?
Mel? All right? Holly gaveit five stars. This book is
five stars plus for me. Itis my favorite kind of story, you
know what I mean, Just sointense that the character gets so far under
your skin that you can't stand tobe away from them for any length of
time. Well that was me whilereading this book. I couldn't concentrate to

(10:07):
get anything done. Smiley face,smiley face, wink wink, Holly.
And then I have a really longreview from good Reads that I printed out
on a separate piece of paper.So this is Rhonda w five star review
and she like formatted this like subjectfifty Shades of Gray. Date September twenty

(10:28):
six, twenty eleven, two E. L. James. Okay, so
she wrote a letter in her reviewto her, I don't know. It
looks like a cover letter. Yeah, I don't know why she did this,
Missus James. I finished your novel, and while I'm aware that it
was derived from fan fiction, Iwas a bit apprehensive about reading it.
Seems that all the shining reviews mademe very curious. So I had to
go with my gut and take theplunge. While I've read the books that

(10:52):
this series was spawned from TYPEO verymuch at the time, what this mean
Twilight? Yeah, I've since movedon, as hand holding and kissing were
just not enough. I wanted more. There were scenes and lines from your
book that made me think of thatseries, Missus James. I really enjoyed
this book, from the story tothe erotica, which is possibly one of

(11:15):
the best erotica books I have everread. She really throughout the book,
I kept thinking, where do Isign Winky? Oh my god, she
wants a contract. I found thatI'm like Anna Been. I found that
I liked Danna very much. Iliked how she challenged Christian. I liked
how Christian tried to ease her intohis world to b DSM did he?

(11:35):
Christian was delicious and I savored himthoroughly. I'm glad I never read the
fan fiction version of the story,because quite frankly, I don't think I
would have enjoyed it as much asI did Christian and Anna saja Am I
curious about it? Absolutely not.I love fifty Shades of Grade just the
way it is. I can't rememberthe last time I smiled this much while
reading a book. Missus James,you have completely captivated me with this book,

(11:58):
and I can way to start thenext one. Rhonda, w all
right, dip, let's move onto Amazon reviews. I also have a
lot of reviews here. It hasa four point two on Amazon, which
I would say is pretty good.April gave it four stars and she says
it's multidimensional and thought provoked him.Fifty Shades of Gray is a story that
will twist you, bend you,and cry for you to submit to its

(12:20):
intrigue. That honestly should be likethe quote that's on the cover. She
kind of ate up with that.Yeah, this is from Moon Donkey,
who gave it okay, so thisis this is how he titled it.
He gave it a four stars,but he's a man. As a reminder,
first things first, what is seriouslylacking? Here are reviews from guys

(12:41):
on this book. Therefore I'm goingto provide one. This will probably be
the best review you've ever read.That's such a way to lead after being
like, we need more men.I know, by the way it's the
best review is horrible, but that'sjust an added bonus. Second, this
is not hardcore porn, as somereviews have stated, stop it. What
rock have you been living under?If you think this is hardcore porn,

(13:03):
then you are missing a heck ofa lot. So what message does a
guy get from this book? Ifyou're rich enough and good looking enough,
she will do anything. Just comeup with any crazy sex stuff you can
think of and go for it.The main character, Anna has no interest
in the nice guy she meets,but when the rich, handsome, emisterious
Christian Gray it turns up. Shegoes from virgin to a sex star bedsm
nympho in the blink of an eye. Would Anna let anyone else do these

(13:26):
things? Who are Heck no,they don't have enough money, they don't
run a company or have a helicopter. How does she justify a classic female
mind trick? But he is reallya nice guy. I just I don't
have words after hearing that for thesecond time, it's just so annoying.
It's I don't even know if Iagree with him on after having just watched

(13:50):
the second movie and having it freshin my mind, Like I'm like,
that's not exactly what her justification andwhatever. Also, he's just because right,
it's just so petty. Oh sowe six f got a big penis,
must be nice, all right.A couple of new reviews. This
is from I Don't know how topronounce the same key was on Amazon one

(14:13):
star. I love great sex ina book, but every chapter is downright
insulting and boring. And if you'regoing to heat up a reader, or
at least this reader, you betterhave a damn good story to back it
up. And I didn't find itin this woman. This was fifty shades
of hype. I think some readerswho found this book all that haven't had
good sex in a while and needto get a damn room and use their
imagination. But obviously some don't haveany if one would think this book was

(14:37):
that great. And yet these arethe same people that turn their noises up
at porn. Some people may haveto readthink how they feel about that judgment.
Sorry didn't do much for me,z Anna stated to Christian, she
needs more. Well so does thisreader. That's pretty good, and I
think she I haven't read it,but I said, like the movies,
the actual sex scenes are kind ofmid It's a lot of like, oh,

(15:01):
here's a weird not weird, I'mnot going to shame here, but
like here's the thing, a bondagetool I'm gonna use, and then you're
like, oh, look at that. And then the actual like physical part
it's like two seconds long. Yeah, I don't know, like I think,
and we'll talk about this a littlelater, but like, I think
this was such an introduction to peopleright for like again in the mainstream,

(15:26):
for like engaging in this kind ofcontent, especially in public splace that it
feels weird. But now we're soyou know, everyone's kind of desensitized,
like, oh, you think dad'spouring wait until right? Never mind,
Okay, one more review. Thisone's long. This is by miss Linda
l On Amazon five stars. Sheuses a lot of like all caps in

(15:50):
this so I'm going to gaol Istruggling our journy one passing unfair and or
downright mean or cruel judgment on thisnovel, It's characters, the storyline,
the author, or any other connectedaspect to take some time out of your
busy lives and learn the facts inpsychology, medicine, and alternative lifestyles of
any kind. Once you know thewhole story and supporting facts, then come

(16:12):
back and re examine this book,along with any others you may have misjudged
far too quickly in the past.Once you know more, you will most
likely find that your negative perceptions ofany reality based potential, character, settings,
events, etc. Are probably incorrectand quite possibly inappropriately harsh and or
mean. As a society, wehave all been guilty of taking the shortcut

(16:33):
and not looking more deeply into somethingwe are not realistically familiar with personally,
and doing so we do ourselves aninjustice as well as society, and the
author or presenter of the original story, plot and related characters are participants.
Once you know the real story,and not just with the media, your
church, or any other major influencesover what you think, feel, and

(16:56):
how you react to anything in yourdaily lives. You are now armed with
the proper or knowledge to have abetter understanding of what you were initially introduced.
Holy shit it over no, andbeing armed with this way, you
can now make up your mind withbetter support to your deductions and overall perceptions.
That is what I starve to doat every possible opportunity, so I

(17:19):
do not improperly but intentionally make abad decision and or judgement base on limited
or potentially false and or misleading informationI received from past reliable sources in my
life. I'm not perfect, soI don't always achieve what I strive to
do, but at least I'm tryingto learn from my errors and personal character

(17:40):
flaws. If you can say thesame, bravo. If not, go
back and start this novel trilogy overagain once you have taken the time to
learn as much truth as you canabout whatever topic, etc. That you
originally judge as implausible or to perfectto ever be real. As I alluded
to earlier, fact is sometimes strangerthan fiction. Remember this. It will

(18:00):
help you keep an open mind untilyou've received as much information as you can
from more than one or two sourcesyou've checked in the past, which will
allow you to see not just notjust what others believe you should and feel,
but what you know, see andfeel is more of a proper perception
of any topic. Okay, whatis she talking literally, have no idea

(18:22):
what is she talking about? Ithink she said the same thing like six
times, but in like I whichpart of it's So that's a very small
aspect of her entire review, bythe way, But in the previous like
in the other parts of the review, she's talking about how like, oh,
like I have a friend she's adominatrix, and like, like all

(18:45):
of this is very normal. Youpeople are just prudes essentially, So she's
like educate yourself on in like peoplewho are into that. And then yeah,
I guess don't say that this isyeah too erotic. Yeah, like
this is actually fine. She reallymade it like a whole She's like,
go do a psychological study. Iknow, dude. I mean it opens

(19:07):
up with her saying like, uh, take some extra time out of your
busier lives and learns the facts inpsychology, medicine, and alternative lifestyles,
Like, oh, I need tolearn about alternative medicine to read this,
right, Yeah. No, andit's like a book that's purely like for
enjoyment, just like escape is.Yeah, I don't know, Like I

(19:30):
think that was one of the problemsin all of the reviews, is that
like or for a lot of peoplelike coming out of it in like twenty
eleven, twenty fifteen, whenever peoplewere reading it was just like, oh,
like this is terrible beds on practice. He's so controlling, And then
on the other side of it,people were like, no, this is
like perfectly normal. And the thingI think we kind of realize now is

(19:52):
like it's fiction, right, andlike, you know, not that you
can't promote good b DSM practices,but does fiction need to provide all of
that per se? Maybe? Idon't know. I mean we've had that
conversation about a billion times, right, yeah, like how much should it
be held accountable? Yeah, becauseit is just like about escapism and fiction

(20:18):
and not everything needs to be likeI don't know, I hate to use
buzzwords, but like woke, youknow, yeah, and they like acknowledge
he has issues. Yeah, it'snot like you should be like this like
her the whole tension in the firstone is like why are you like this?
It kind of fathers me, likeI don't feel awesome. Yeah,

(20:41):
so it's just like, I don'tknow, it's it's a weird thing that
we kind of talked about when wefirst recorded this episode of just like yeah,
it's got BDSM like practices that arelike really frowned upon and like the
contract, you know, but doesit matter maybe yeah, I don't know.
I don't know. I feel neutralabout it because I don't really care

(21:03):
about this. But all right,so let's talk about the original fan fiction
Master of the Universe. We couldnot find this anywhere without getting like insane
trojan horse on our computer or something, so I didn't I did not actually
read the original fan pic, butI found a couple of sources who compared

(21:27):
fifty Shades of Gray versus Master ofthe Universe. So the cycled dear author
ran both books through three different comparisonengines, which are like the things you
run like your college essays through forplagiarism YEP, and found that the name
changes were the biggest difference between thetwo. Otherwise, the similarity index is
eighty nine percent, So she reallydid not change much when she re rewrote

(21:51):
this, which is like kind ofokay honestly, Yeah, like you use
it as a template to kind offigure out what you're working with. But
there was some discourse around the epicsof E. L. James or you're
working a fan pic just like,oh, those aren't your characters though,
like these are still based on Twilightcharacters, and you didn't like make these

(22:14):
people in a sense. And Ithink that is an interesting point because we've
talked so much about how Bella issuch a stereotype anyway, Yeah, and
like Edward is, like it's justa stereotypical matchup of like shy, bookish
girl meets bad boy. Yeah,so, like, I think there's a
lot of gray area around qualms withthat point. Also for her Fifty Shades

(22:41):
of Gray Dot Random, the personalitytraits, appearances, and familial relationships in
Twilight stayed the same for the fanfic. Some of the characters minor details were
altered for fifty Shades. Obviously shehad to make everyone of age. Yeah,
but it's pretty so I do thinkthat the family similarities and the two

(23:03):
but yeah, I think the biggestthings were like the age and then obviously
she had to take away like thesupernatural shit, which is interesting how she
did that, but we'll get tothat all right. So Fifty Shades of
Gray versus Twilight very similar. Obviouslythey're both based on the same thing,
um, but some of the similaritieswe talked about the familial stuff. Yeah,

(23:26):
so Anna's parents are also split up. She goes to visit her mom,
who like lives in Where does shego to Georgia? They go to
Georgia. Were in the South.They go to Georgia. It's warm,
very similar to when like Bella visitsher mom in Florida. And then the
boy also comes with so like Edward'sthere and feels all protective. Christian shows
up to see it. She justshows up, can't be away from you.

(23:49):
And then the dad. The dadis like much less involved in fifty
Shades as it is. Yeah.I mean they are like in college to
be fair, right, but thedad is like the one who actually shows
up for graduation, and they seemto have like a softer and more genuine
relationship. Yeah. And then Christianis adopted, as is kind of with

(24:11):
Edward. They don't get into thatvery much, but mom is a doctor
of something. Yeah. Anna isa literature student, which yeah, loves
Bronte and Austin. This was somethingI picked up on in the second movie.
There's a line where he's like,he's like, what took you so
long? Or like why did youwait for me? Like basically like why

(24:33):
have you never been sexual before me? And she's like, I was reading
Austin and Bronte, like I guessI just had. Now she's like,
I just had like these crazy expectationsof like the male characters. No,
I literally have that quoted. SometimesI wonder if there's something wrong with me.
Perhaps I've spent too long in thecompany of my literary romantic heroes.
Consequently, my deals and expectations arefar too hot, which maybe I would

(24:56):
honestly have to like freshen up myreading to even see if that those men
are like worth it um. Butyeah, I was just kind of like
I guess, but also like geta grip, get a grip. Uh.
Anna has a lip biting and oralfixation, which I wonder where that
came from. Bella Swan. Edwardand Christian are both piano players. Yes,

(25:19):
small detail, but exactly the same. Lots of scenes at the piano.
Oh there's so let's get into characters. So we obviously know Bella is
Anastasia or Isabella is Anastasia, whichis to Bella and Anna. Um obviously
Edward is to Christian. We knowthis. We also have so Anna Stagia's

(25:44):
roommate is her name is Kate,and her like matchup would be Rosalie,
which I think is interesting because they'reobviously like good friends in that. But
you know, Rosalie and her personalityisn't like she's like this like you know,
hot blonde girl, but she's notlike vain and cold like Rosalie is.

(26:06):
Yeah, that's true. Well Idon't know what it's like in the
book, but you know, butlike even their characteristics are similar though,
Like I mean, if you lookat like Edward and Christian Gray like right,
physically, I get it, whichthey're all kindness supposed to look alike.
And then Elliott is Edwards or Elliottis Christian's brother who is supposed to

(26:27):
be Emmett. So Rosalie and Emmetteventually get together. And then we have
Jose who is her college friend thatkind of just is obsessed with her.
He's a short king and her.Yeah, he's a person of color,
by the way, the only personof color there was in the second movie.
When he finds out, they getengaged because he's like a such a

(26:48):
minor character. Yeah. Yeah,he just like kind of randomly shows up
and you can tell he likes her. But it's not like they like draw
it out like they do with Bellaand Jacob, but they do specifically like
put the camera on him and howhe has a face of like, oh
great, it was my shot.Yep um differences. I think it's interesting

(27:11):
that Anna actually has a career orlike she has one in the second book,
especially Slash Movie, because you watchedthat freshly. But like that's not
something that Bella ever really got,Like she didn't ever have. Yeah,
she was like baby algobious. Shelike she was talking about how she was
gonna We've talked about this before,but she was gonna, Like when she

(27:33):
was bullshitting about what she was doingfor college, she was talking about studying
science and we were like you're clearlyyeah. We were like huh yeah,
so but yeah, it doesn't matter. They just go be vampires and that's
it. Yeah, But yeah,Anna becomes she's like an assistant editor and
then her editor sucks and there havebeen like three assistance before her that all

(27:56):
left like very quietly. Um.So Christian's always like he's like, I'm
not trying to be like overprotective,but like your boss is creepy, and
she's like, let me handle it, and then it ends up not going
well and she like has an incidentwith her boss. But Christian had recently
bought or was like in the processof buying the company. So then when

(28:18):
the when the bad boss resigned,she was like, Christian, did you
do this? Because then she endsup being acting editor yeah, which is
and then crazy jumped by the way. Yeah, She's like is this because
of you? And he's like,honestly, like I was able to talk
to the CEO to like get ridof your boss, but I had nothing
to do with like pulling strings foryou. You did that curly, right,

(28:38):
So but it is interesting, likeshe actually like we you know,
we have scenes in her workplace andyes, and they make kind of girl
yeah, they make points about likeyour boyfriend and now fiance is like loaded,
you don't need to work, andshe's like but she's like, oh
I think it, yeah, yeah, which I guess is cool. Um,

(28:59):
but yeah, it doesn't it.Christian at one point even go like,
you don't really need to do this, yeah, because she's like,
what should I just like hide inyour penthouse? Because he was like what
if? What if you move inwith me? And then he was like,
I mean you could, like I'llgive you a key, and she's
like, what, I like towork and he's like okay, yeah,
then do it okay, Barbie.Right. Also different is that I think

(29:23):
Anna fights, Like obviously she fightsthe contract in the first book slash movie,
like she's like, I don't wantto sign this and just like belong
to you. So I don't knowif she like it's hard to be like,
oh she has more autonomy because Ithink like physically no, but I

(29:45):
she's a little bit more resistant.Yeah, And it's we were like talking
around this last time, and Idon't think I've still like completely thought of
the exact parallel between like Bella's decisionto become a vampire and and the decision
to sign the contract. Yeah,because it's also like a similar tension.
Yeah, it's a similar tension andthe opposite decisions. Yeah, but they

(30:07):
do use like that decision as abargaining thing, yes, and sometimes it
flips depending on like what you wantto go your way, yeah, because
Anna's whole thing is like like thiscontract is gonna essentially like bind her as
like a sub to him for Idon't know how long of time, but
like it lays out all these specificrules she has to live with him,
and she's essentially like not a girlfriend, she's a sex slave in that case.

(30:30):
And so she's trying to fight thisbecause she's like, I think we
have a real connection, YadA YadA, but he's like, but one just
have to, Yeah, we haveto. But meanwhile, like Bella wants
eternity with Edward and she just Ithink she just wants superflowers relatable. Um,

(30:52):
But it feels like an opposite decisionof like total freedom kind of depending
on a turn. And it's likewith the contract Christians, the one who's
like, I want you to makethis decision, and then with the vampire
thing Edwards like I don't want youto make this decision. Yeah, But
it's also like the same in thesense that it's like, oh, this

(31:15):
is how we can be together,Like this is how right, like a
permanence, Yeah, but it kindof flip flops, which is interesting.
Um, Anna's not in as muchdanger Like, Okay, she almost walks
in front of a car deal whichalso a car. They both have old

(31:37):
cars. Yeah, they both havethe truck and the little um And then
in the second movie, there isa lot of like with her boss and
just like there's this weird thing aboutthere being like a stalker like gets all
angry and like brings a gun intoAnna's apartment, So there is a sense
of like he does need to saveher from the boss and then from this

(31:57):
girl. Is it the second No, I think it's a third one where
she just straight up gets kidnapped.Yeah. Yeah, it's very taken the
third one. Yeah, so shelike it definitely ramps up later on,
but it's like at least in thatfirst movie slash Book, it's less dangerous.
Well, it's dangerous in a differentway. Yeah. They I think

(32:20):
they lean more into like she's shyand awkward and new to this and like
the innocence of it than the likeshe needs to be protected part of it.
Yeah. And I think they alsobreak the plot up and obviously different
ways than Twilight did because the originalfan Vic was like just two parts and

(32:42):
it was like all these chapters.So I think for when they went to
publish it, they split it upin a different one because obviously the first
and again I don't know what happensin the books. Obviously in the first
movie, like they cut her offat like they're fighting, and then you
have to be like, oh,what's going to happen in the second one,
right, So that could be partof it too. M A Christians

(33:05):
a lot more controlling than Edward.I think, yeah, well, like
this is this was kind of mypoint when we talked last time, and
what I was saying when you askedme, like, is Twilight smut?
And I was like, I thinkthere's enough tension there for it to get
to a smutty place. But theyjust kind of take like the power dynamic

(33:27):
that exists between Edward and Bella,even though that's in a very like a
different context of like supernatural beings.Yeah, but they make that in like
the sexual tone of that just superobvious in fifty Shades. Yeah, so
they're like, like Edward has controllingtendencies, but then they're like gonna label
Christian as controlling, like like shit, yeah, because Edward really wants.

(33:51):
I mean, I think, likeobviously they're both extremely controlling, but like
Christian like wants to control like whatshe drives, what she were, like
she has and an nda, whichgranted as part of like this universe becoming
like a realistic thing with him beinga BILLIONI or fucking whatever. I do
think you're right though, because therewas a line in the movie last Night

(34:14):
when Missus Robinson was trying to belike, you're never gonna be what he
wants because you're too independent, andlike he doesn't want just to submissive in
the bedroom, he wants a submissivein life. Yeah, so, And
I just I don't know. Ithink like Edward just likes her. I
mean because his whole thing too withnot turning her is he's like, I
like the human version of you.I like the like little flaws you have.
I like that you blush all thetime, like all this little things.

(34:37):
And to me, it seems likehe doesn't necessarily want to like change
her, you know, right,And that's why he's saying no, whereas
Christian is like, I want youto be and he likes type of pressword,
wants Bella to have a human life, and like go to college and
be with her family and explore herself. Yeah, so is Christian worse?
Well, I don't know if thatabout pretty bad. Yeah, we kind

(35:00):
of talked about that I can fixyou relationship, but that's pretty much the
same bad boy good girl again,a very common trope at the time.
Though, Yeah, very idealized.Yeah still is, honestly, but yeah,
I think it wasn't, like yousaid, a more idealized light.
But yeah, it's these girls whoare like something's been awakened in me,

(35:20):
but still something's not quite how Iwant it to be. Yeah, So
it's interesting that el James just rewroteTwilight instead of I did see, like,
I think, on like a Wikipediapage at some point I saw that
someone called it a Twilight sequel thatshe wrote as a fan pick. But
I don't. I mean, Ithink if you match up the plots,
I think it's just a retelling ofthe story, right. I think I

(35:45):
don't really know what her trajectory was, if she had a plan, But
I can see if you're like,I want to start exploring this story in
my own way, just like takingthe original and doing your own version of
it, as like a writing exercise, Like I can see that being at
the point in the process. Yeah, it's like, I mean, I

(36:06):
don't really know if there's like aright or wrong to it. I don't
know that much about fanfick in general, but yeah, it's like I think
my first reaction would be like,oh, maybe I want to continue this
story, but when they're much older, maybe I don't know, because my
whole thing is like, so shejust the first half of her writing just

(36:29):
had to be like the exact samething as Twilight, right, just the
meeting, and like, I don'tknow, again, it would about nice
to have the Masters of the Universething to understand, like what was all
that different? But apparently not muchbecause if that's an eighty nine percent matchup.
Yeah, and then even still,like just comparing the movie to the

(36:52):
key Twilight plots, even if they'renot in the exact same order, like
it was much more similar then Irealized it was going to be. Yeah,
I just think writing that would havebeen really boring for a while because
then you're just rewriting the same thingagain, but with a lot of six

(37:13):
which also that translates weird because Idon't know if she changed the ages right
away. Again, I have noidea that I'd be really cious about because
then that gets super fucking creamy.That is, as if it's not already
creepy. But like part of it, I think, and something that we
need to dive into is like whenyou take away the supernatural aspects, because
we were talking about like is Edwarda shitty guy? Is there an age

(37:37):
problem all of that stuff, butit's hard to tell because like he's supernatural,
so we don't know where those barriersare. But now that you translate
this into a different yeah, it'slike, Okay, if age doesn't matter,
is it still fucked up? Whichnot that there's a huge age gap
between annas Asia and Christian. It'slike twenty one verses twenty seven. So
it's like not, yeah, Ithink great but not horrendous. I think

(37:58):
numerically it sounds fine, but likeme at twenty one, like twenty one
is a vulnerable age. Yeah,still like you are. You've been through
enough to be like I don't knowwhat I'm doing, but you haven't been
through enough to like know anything else. Yeah, basically you know nothing.

(38:19):
Yeah, well, and it's justlike it really like puts an emphasis on
like the power issues too, becauseagain, when you translate like all of
his supernatural abilities into like real life, like we're talking about money and power
and fame and knowledge. Yeah,he like is able to like he he
like just transfers money into her bankaccount and she's like, how do you
know my bank information? And itgives her an answer like how did you

(38:43):
just sell my car? Without throughthis like money and status, He's able
to also have very specific knowledge andends with stuff. Yeah. Well,
and then the NDA thing is likeits own sense of power, Like she
immediately as a sign an NDA withouteven knowing that there's a contract and we

(39:04):
were talking about that too, andhow that is so fucked up because this
is her first time having text.Yeah, and then you're not even allowed
to like talk about it with yourfriends and be like in a giddy way
where it's like oh wow, likeI got fucking rail or just like being
like is this normal? Like therecomparing notes, Yeah, like this kind

(39:28):
of made me feel this way.Have you ever felt that way? Like
just being able to talk about thoseexperiences is important and you're like fresh virgin,
have like two times where intercourse it'slike somewhat vanilla and then you're instantly
in a room with like bondage supplies, and then you can't talk about any
of that without when like your sexualityis so like it's not separate from yourself.

(39:53):
Yeah, and like even ages side, like I don't know. I
mean, I know a lot ofpeople deal with this when they get into
their first relationship in high school orsomething. But it's just like when you're
only with one person who wants veryspecific things, that's still you growing up
into your sexuality. Yeah, andyou don't ever know what you want,

(40:13):
Like you have no other like conceptionof what sex is supposed to be other
than like what you've engaged in inthe media, I guess, but like
you have no idea like what yourspot, like how your body is supposed
to react to these things. LikeI am teaching you everything. I'm teaching
you in a very specific way.Right, It's just a little sus But
yeah, he has like such animmense amount of power over her. I

(40:36):
mean the money alone is like crazy, saying with the bank account, was
I forget why he was giving hertwenty four thousand dollars, but he was
liked he had given her a checkfor twenty four thousand, and she like
ripped it up because she was like, oh, can you take this back?
And he's like, I make thatamount of money every minute, like
who needs it? And then sherips it up and then he like calls

(40:57):
someone and it's like, hey,can you transfer this money in Anna's being
account? And she's like what thefuck? So yeah, there's also a
point where they're like in the grocerystore and she's like, when's the last
time you went shopping? Yeah,do you know how much of banana comes?
And he was like last week inHouston and she's like, oh,
would you get and he was like, like he bought an like an airport.

(41:19):
They just leave it at that.Okay, it's an interesting translation of
like Twilight and what that power translatesto, but it's pretty icky. Granted,
Edwards also like loaded. I don'tknow, I don't think they really
make that that big of a dealother than like obviously like hey, we'll
buy your plane ticket. They havenice stuff, but they I guess it's
because the colons like try to bediscreet and they try to make the colons.

(41:43):
I think like they're making a moralargument in Twilight that I think does
not exist in fifty shades. Yeah, no, definitely not. I did.
My first note in my note tapp when we were watching the movie
was it's like Twilight but capitalism.I mean yeah, but also like which
I guess you put anything in thereal world, it's capitalism. Yeah.
Well it's interesting too because Carlisle,I think, is like canonically like either

(42:06):
the richest or the second richest fictionalcharacter in whoever made the list? Like
where good for him, I guess, but whatever. I also have just
noted down here Christian desperately needs atherapist, Yeah, which they get.
I keep talking about the second movie, but they do. I don't think
they ever mentioned like therapy. Butshe is kind of like it means a

(42:27):
lot when you open up to me, like who did this to you?
Like you should talk about it?Yeah, because in the whole first movie
he's like no, no, no, no, she's a friend, and
it's like, no, no,no, that was an adult woman that
groom do at like fourteen fifteen.Yeah, and then he has the line
in the second one where Missus Robinson'sbeing all mean to Anna and then he's
like, no, you taught mehow to fuck. Anna taught me how

(42:49):
to love, and then his momwalks in, and then the mom's like,
you're my best friend, Get thefuck out. So all of that
starts coming out to a point whereI think he would be more open to
something like therapy. But in thefirst one it's like that is the battle
is like why are you like this? And then the second one it's very
obvious it's mommy issues. Yeah,but like your girlfriend can't fix that.

(43:14):
Yeah, which I think is asimilar thing that we said about you know,
Bella and Edward. I mean,everyone needs it, Everyone generally in
the world needs a therapist. Blahblah blah. But you know, if
we're taken first picks, I thinkChristians men who have men parental issues and
some dark backgrounds of their childhoods.Right. Yeah, we kind of talked

(43:37):
about it, but fifty shades ofgray bad example of b DSM, which
I'm not go inform yourself according tothat one reviewer, you know, learn
up, but does it matter?I think I think where we landed with
this was like because it was kindof an introduction to having that in the

(44:01):
mainstream and like opening people up totalking about sex. It's kind of like,
should it have been held more accountableif she didn't know that, you
know what I mean? Yeah,and yeah, and it's also like if
it is the first you can't expectit to be perfect, and then there
are a lot of things that arelike I don't know, that's just like
even rom coms can be like arelationship actually like this like nothing is a

(44:22):
perfect yeah, because it's it's similarto our judgments, well some of them
of Twilight of like oh this isfucked up, like you guys are moving
too fast, and like this islike really controlling, but it's like when
they entertaining, if it was normal. Yeah, I don't know. It's
also like do we really have todraw the line in fiction? Like some
authors want to and some authors willand that's like fine, sometimes you're also

(44:46):
just writing shitty characters who are imperfectand like flawed. Yeah. I guess
it just comes down to as longas there's a balance in pop culture of
media that does do the work that'slike, hey, what if we had
better representation and more content and justlike have work that's like reframing real life

(45:08):
issues. Yeah, balanced with thestuff that can be funny or just like
light or a little problematic. Yeah, can't. Yeah, I don't know.
It's like, Okay, if itweren't for capitalism, and if it
weren't for you know, just usbeing racist in general, Like would it
really matter if we had like actualrepresentation in movies? Like could you just

(45:29):
make a historical movie that only hadwhite people because it's set in the UK.
But because we have so many likeproblems with the film industry, you
know, it's just like so ifyou actually bring it into real life,
and especially in like capitalism, it'slike suddenly it matters because there's so much
contact around this fictional landscape. ButI think books also have like and granted

(45:52):
this is also a movie, butI think books are able to do They
have a little bit more freedom thanI think like other forms of media might
have, but we still sometimes runinto the same issues. And also like
I think sometimes if you're if youdon't include like good BDS on practices,
like does it pull it out ofreality? I don't really know. And

(46:15):
I mean I think it's it's likewhat we do with Twilight, where like
this was a thing we enjoy it, can we now reflect on it?
Yeah, Like I think it's justall about critical thinking. So it's like,
Okay, this exists. It wasn'tlike outright awful, Like it wasn't
trying to be awful in a waythat was like making a point of like
we support this exactly this way.Yeah, Like it is like you're saying,

(46:37):
it is just a work of fiction. It has to be on us
to be like critical enough. Yeah, because especially in the case of fifty
Shades of Grade, it's like itshould escapism have to follow any kind of
rules, not really other than likebeing a good story. But like,
if I'm a person who's reading this, do I really care? Again,

(47:00):
I don't really know. I don'tknow. Yeah, and then you can
form opinions based on it. Butbut I think that has been like a
whole thing about like b DSM andpeople who like, like, since BDSM
has become not mainstream, but Ithink more mainstream and people are practicing,
it's like you also have to knowthat there's like really specific rules, which

(47:22):
going back to the plot, there'sa scene in the second one when she's
like she's like, you're a dominantI'm never gonna be good enough because like
I can't be like a full submissiveand he's like, no, the right
term for what I am is asatist and I get off on putting women
through pain because he has mommy issues. So it's like and he specifically goes
for women that like look similar tohis birth mother because she overdosed on a

(47:46):
crack and he was with her forlike three days. While Yeah, this
so that comes to light where he'slike, I don't want to be like
that. I want to like moveon from this situation with my mom.
But it's still has to manifest ina certain way because he has not worked
their way completely. Media zone comesfrom a lot of different places. Some

(48:07):
people just like it because it's fun, but it is very common that a
lot of people get into certain fetishesbecause of it can be unresolved trauma.
It can also be resolved trauma.But that's been like a very common link
between like why people have specific fetishesand like things that happened in their past

(48:30):
and being able to find like asafe space to like unhash that sometimes again
not the case with everyone, certainlynot so they do like they eventually provide
enough explanation because the whole thing isabout her trying to understand him. Yeah,
but it's also like again when you'renot. And again, it's fiction

(48:53):
whatever, but it's also like tosome degree, you know, okay,
so you're going to take that outon someone else, right, You're going
to also take it without actual realconsent and like aftercare boundary setting beforehand,
like yeah, you have a safeword, but that's not enough. So
I get why people run into issueswith this book. He's so controlling,

(49:15):
he's so demanding, like this isn'thow you practice safe sex, and it's
like that is true, but thesepeople are not real, right, But
you know, it's like I getto toss up like an objective stance on
it. And even when we werehad that episode when Maria came in and

(49:35):
we were talking about Edward and Bill'sa relationship in general, it was just
like like it was like, yeah, are there red flags? Totally,
but if it works for them,and like it's fiction, you know,
again, it's weird because they havethe contract, but they also don't have
other practice. I don't know.He's just kind of a had a ass
like BDSM guy honestly, So don'ttake your sex advice from Christian Gray.

(49:59):
Find someone on TikTok and take thereis twilight sexy enough to make a book
like this, to inspire a booklike this, My answer is it did
it did so, And I wouldtalk a lot about the tension. And
I think even in Life and Death, remember the when they did the Genner
shot version. Yeah, and whenthey had it being a human boy and

(50:20):
a female vampire. I think itwas because it was from a voya's perspective,
they made it a lot hornier andthat one, and the tension was
super obvious when they did it thatway. And we'll talk about fan fake
one day, but it's really youknow, I don't necessarily think there's anything
that has to lead you into beinglike, Okay, I could write some

(50:40):
smut about them. Sometimes it's justus. It's about like liking the characters,
yeah, and like what you're interestedin, so I think. And
there were a few things just inTwilight itself where it was like, I
mean the fucking kissing scene, whichElle James did say like she saw Twilight
for the first time and then immediatelywent to go write this and then like

(51:00):
I was curious, got through thebook super fast. Yeah, I was
curious if it was a movie triggeror a book. I believe it was
a movie. See that makes totalsense. Yeah, yeah, because the
book's kind of slow and very unsexy, but also kind of funny and a
little ironic that a Mormon author whowouldn't even let her characters have sex until

(51:22):
the last book when they were marriedand didn't even include in sex scene inspired
one of the or perhaps the bestselling piece of smot ever in the world,
and also accidentally started a conversation aboutlike us talking publicly about sex,
right, And I think specifically fromgoing back to what was his name,

(51:44):
moon Donkey, it's like this isfor the girls, And I think it
because he's like, have you neverwatched porn? Like molla? And it's
like this is much more of likea feminine cultural sexual awakening of like,
oh I can be into that,yeah, because men have always been sexually
awake, right, but it's yeah, but for women for a very long

(52:08):
time and still debatably today. Islike, like porn is very much made
for the male gaze. Everything elsewhere's literature, and there's a common thing
about like there's probably like a realstatistic out here about this that I don't
know, but women are more likebetter able to tap into like a storyline,

(52:32):
like it works a little bit betterfor them versus like porn that just
automatically like jumps into like the sex, which has to do with our different
kinds of libidos, and so literatureis typically erotica is typically more so aimed
towards a woman, which, yeah, it was interesting. It's just like
I remember when fifty Shades came outand we were all like, you're gonna

(52:58):
go watch that in a keeter,you're gonna read that in public? I
know it's like, are you okay, fucking yeah, sure, whatever,
do it. Who cares, that'sbetween you and the lord. I heard
a phrase the other day, Um, if you're scared, go to church.
I like them. I'm gonna usethat now. Um. Fifty Shades

(53:19):
of Gray, as we know,is just horribly written. Would you like
to hear some quotes from the book? Yep, sure, just the first
book? Okay. Um, I'dlike you to rate all of these quotes
out of ten? Okay, tenreally good? Like I like, just
like editorially yes or well, Idon't know of editory maybe just like fibe,
but vibes. The helicopter was builtfor sex, I observed, sexily,

(53:44):
that's a that's a ten. Iwrote, something, oh, I
said. The helicopter scene parallels tospider Monkey scene. Yes, um,
Christian Gray picked up the long blackthing and started working my zone. It
was bananas. That's not real.I think it gets like a six for
shock factor, but I would giveit like a three for actual imagery.

(54:09):
It was banana. Yeah what?Um? Okay? When I woke up,
Christian Gray had somehow gotten an entireorange into my mouth no context,
that's a five five okay, anentire orange that would hurt, and she
like wasn't awake until she realized itwas in there. I guess, I

(54:30):
don't know. I didn't read around. I just have that quote. Um
okay, I think you like thisone Christian Gray mashed on my area with
the meat of his hand. Doyou like that, you woman? That's
a two. That's a two allright? Just in terms of her it
makes me feel yeah, I can'tokay, I don't know, make you

(54:53):
feel like nice? Now I understandwhy it had such a it's really bad
like that. It could have beensexy, Like that's not sexy her intern
I think like her personality is justlike really like millennial, quirky weird in
a way. That's like very cringelike it was bananas. And then she
like has this whole like inner goddessthing that she goes on about throughout the

(55:15):
whole book where she's talking about likeher inner like my inner goddess sprung to
life. So it's just like areally weird like I think our main character
has just got a weird word right, and it's very cringey. But yeah,
that makes it hard for it tobe. Yeah, if she wouldn't
if she was sex she was narratingfrom the inner goddess, that would be

(55:36):
different than her like twenty one.Also, she's an English major, though
she can't have better not be alittle bit more eloquent like you and even
if you haven't been a sexual personyourself. If she's into the romantics,
like are you kidding the Brontes whatever. Yeah, if she's a writer,

(55:57):
she really should be better. Shecould have at least try, yeah,
like used her literary skills. It'salso bizarre to pretend Yale James was a
TP writer, like her job asa writer, and I'm like, this
is the best you've got, girl, friend. Um, the sex feelings
flooded my body like a charging herd. Of eighty bitty elephants. We're talking

(56:17):
small. That's a nine. That'sa nice Okay, I'm gonna have to
use voices to integrate Christian versus Annafor this one. Say it he commanded,
yankety spankety louder. Are you joking? That's the wood scene. He

(56:37):
says, say it out loud,yankety s everybody those words on paper.
I really can't tell whether to ratethese high or low, because like low
like that is that is like atwo again for like actual writing ability,
but like the way these are shockingme, like that could be a seven.

(56:59):
You could get to two ratings whatever. Okay, we only have a
few left. Well they're more.He reaches between my legs and pulls on
the blue string. What and Shenleypulls my tampon out and tosses it into
the nearby toilet. Holy fuck,sweet mother of all geez, is that
hurt thoughts? Yeah? That isan eleven. That's a real scene that

(57:22):
happens in the book. Can youbelieve that? No, It's like it's
like if people know this book forthe tampon scene. Also, he puts
it in the toilet. You can'tflush that it's not allowed. Okay.
See he doesn't know anything, soeleven you said on here. Okay,
we've gotten to the inner goddess part. My inner goddess is doing the marengue

(57:45):
with some salsa moves. Well,if you were mine, you wouldn't be
able to sit down for a weekafter the stunt you pulled yesterday. I
think that was in the movie.That's kind of boring. I hate it.
But now I'll give that like aone. Okay, Um we also

(58:10):
this one was also in the movie. Does this mean you're going to make
love to me tonight? Christian?Holy shit? Did I just say that?
His mouth truss drops open slightly,but he recovers quickly. No,
Anastasia, it doesn't. Firstly,I don't make love. I fuck hard.
I hate it. That was actually, I can't believe we're putting this

(58:34):
into the world. It's already beenin the world. We're justing. No,
I can't believe we're doing this.Um. I hated that scene.
I hate the way he says that. I'm gonna give it it too too.
All right, here's the last one, Christian. You are the State
lottery, the cure for cancer,and the three Wishes from Aladdin's Lamp all

(58:54):
rolled into one. I hate it, thoughts. I literally it can't get
past the cancer part of that.Who are the cure for cancer? So
I'm going to give that imagine everyimagine a single man that gets a zero.
That's a zero? Um? Didyou did you like? I think

(59:19):
I'm neutral about it. Um.I think it takes itself too seriously in
some way episodes Twilight right right,so it's entertaining. I don't know if
it's much past that. I willsay, Yeah, it's much like Twilight
banger soundtrack, so sure, incrediblesoundtrack. Yeah. I did a lot

(59:40):
for the weekend, so yeah,literally projected his career and what has he
done with that? He's made aweird show. Do you think we've talked
about some moton long enough? Yes? All right, well, fifty Shades
of Gray. It's been so real. Thank you so much for coming to
the party. It was very interestingtoo talk about you and I hope our

(01:00:00):
parents never listen to this episode.UM, pleasure talking with you. It's
been so real. Thank you somuch, Elle James. Well, is
there a parallel in the movie too, as if you cannot run me hmm,
we could probably come up with onewith it's okay, yankety yeah.

(01:00:27):
Actually, vampire