We are thrilled to have our dear friend Dane County District Attorney Ishmael Ozzane back on the Madtown Mom Squad! Today we chat about the "No Hit Zone" and corporal punishment. Many of us grew up in a generation where physical punishment was a form of discipline. Today we will learn the positive effects that the "No Hit Zone" is doing for our children's up bringing and mental health. Also, we learn about up and coming projects that will not only change the judicial system for the better, but will show compassion and more support to our children who might land in the juvenile system. Get ready to hear about the "Community Court Project" and how "The Red Hook Community Justice Center" was a stepping stone for this new journey in our Madison and surrounding areas!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the Mad's Own Mom Squad podcast, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hard working real mamas having real conversations. Now
sit back, relax, and get ready to talk mom life
with Christa and her Squad.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
So, Krina, I am really excited about a very important
conversation that we are going to have today. It is
something that there are a lot of opinions around this conversation,
so it can be delicate as well, and so I
just wanted to let everybody who's tuning in right now
you will have definitely your idea of what you believe
(00:36):
is right or wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And again we keep this platform open.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
It's not a light topic, no, and I'll just put
it out there.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
For my generation growing up, it was not unheard of
to have your parent come on out with a belt
to spank you, or sometimes I would get the wooden spoon.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
My mom would be like running around. I'd be like,
you know, yeah, you gotta hide, you gotta hide, yeah
you know.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
But that's just was my generation growing I don't know
about you, No.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
It wasn't. It wasn't as much.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
I mean you kind of heard it a little bit,
maybe like swatting, but no, yeah, yeah, like my parents
never did. My parents punishment was we'd sit down and
talk about feelings and we were.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Like, oh God, oh I love that. Please don't do that.
We'll just behave. That's the love of God. That's why
you're so gentle.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So I just remember a couple times that I got
in trouble and.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Maybe I've gotten the belt before.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
But other than that, you know, all of our experiences
are very, very different. And when it comes to an
extraordinary man that works in our community, when it comes
to protecting us and giving us a voice and standing
up for what many of us believe in, he is
definitely that I am so honored to have back on
(01:49):
our show. Dane County District Attorney Ishmael Ozon, Hello, Ismael's
nice to see. Yes, yes, well, it's always a wonderful
thing to come across you in our community to see
you on TV because what you do on a daily basis,
I can't imagine is an easy process to be a
(02:09):
district attorney and what you see on a daily and
again for you to take your time with us today
means everything. So again we're going to get into some
tough topics. So let's get into this something that I
remember you being on our show we discussed the no
hit zone in corporal punishment. You have done so much
to educate us on the long term damage that corporal
(02:33):
punishment can do to our children and our society. So
what changes are you seeing since you established a no
hit zone and began talking about the effects.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Of corporal punishment. For those that don't know what this.
Speaker 6 (02:46):
Is, it's a great question, and I don't know that
I can say what impacts we've seen. We've tried to
just make sure that we can share all the information
so that parents actually have access to research and can
make educated decision on what they want to do to
parent their children. You know, parents love their kids, and
(03:06):
some parents may have grown up with corporal punishment and
that is how they were raised and want to continue.
We just want to make sure that they have access
to the data that shows that there really isn't a
positive impact from physical discipline. It's not illegal for a
parent to use physical discipline. The bar is whether it's reasonable,
(03:29):
and that bar is changed and determined by the community.
So in cases where frankly, a belt is used and
marks are left, you know, those are cases in which
we potentially could charge a felony level offense and go
to trial, and we've received guilty verdicts on those facts.
(03:50):
Usually the person is very clear, yes, I did this.
I told let's say little Johnny that this would happen
if he did X y Z again. He did it again,
and so I did what I did. You know, but
the research shows that if you're willing to use physical discipline,
you're eleven times more likely to come into the criminal
(04:12):
justice system for a felony level behavior. Because let's say
at one point in little Johnny's life, one little swat
with a hand was enough to in the parent's mind
correct the behavior. Well, they graduated to an instrumentality, whether
it be a belt or a spoon or let's say
an electrical court, and they hit him numerous times. Well,
(04:37):
you know, we're looking at whether you intentionally cause physical
harm to a child, and now we're looking at a
felony offense and potentially a conviction which could cause somebody
to lose their job, could cause somebody to lose their housing,
and doesn't strengthen the relationship between the child and the parents.
We want kids to be safe and in their home,
(05:00):
want that relationship to be strong between the child and parents.
The child can come to the parent with any problems
and hopefully get the support they need to deal with
some of the things that happen in this world that
no one wants to have happened to a child. But
we have to still deal.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
With absolutely, absolutely, and you know, and I know it
has definitely changed throughout time, and I know a lot
of people are definitely scared and they don't know what
to do or how to approach sometimes situations. And then
I think that's very true as well as the mental
health field. You know, a lot of our kids are
(05:41):
affected mentally, and you know, just to try to be
able to you know, protect them in all aspects.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Of course as parents, that's what we want. But again
it happens.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Yeah, well, and I think you touched on it too,
both of you.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
With the generational side, is that what is that the
correct term or the cycle.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Of the generation?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
Like you know, you kind of do what your parents
want to do or you break that cycle, right, And
obviously times have change, Like you think about the fifties,
like to spank your kids wasn't that wouldn't have been
unheard of, right obviously, And you're talking about that too.
It's just an it's an interesting topic because I'm a
(06:24):
young mom, you know, and and I think about things
that I brought on from my parents, and I think
about things that I left.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
You know with you know them, and.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
And and yeah, it really is. It's that that tool
of knowing enough to make your own decisions as a parent.
And I think that's what we're learning more and more
is that corporal punishment just doesn't work right well.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And then you know, I think, you know, and Ishmael
will obviously be the expert on this. This could cause,
you know, in a child fear trauma, they may think
that this is a correct way to discipline, and where
there you say, sometimes you know, they get into the
(07:08):
system because they think, you know, acting out on someone
using physical is the correct thing to do.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Is that do you find that?
Speaker 6 (07:16):
And that's the hard thing to really sort of point
out and explain is that when you're in this parent
child relationship right there is the person who is supposed
to love you and protect you now is potentially causing
you pain. And the hard thing is for a young
brain to understand that this person is supposed to love me,
(07:41):
but they're hurting me. It can cause a child to
misconstrue sort of what it is to love or protect.
And you get into a situation where might makes right,
where you're not talking about non violent conflict resolution, where
you're really now factoring in in that young brain, how
(08:01):
do I avoid pain? How do I avoid getting caught?
You know? Or at some point, well, the punishment's going
to be the punishment, I can take it, and therefore
I'll just do whatever I want. I think what we
really want as parents is is more of real decision
making for our children to occur when they aren't in
(08:23):
our presence. Right, So you want them to understand and
hear you when you say it's not smart or it's
dangerous for you to go into X, Y and Z,
And you want that to be in their mind, in
their consciousness when they're not in your presence. So hopefully
they aren't engaging in risky behavior. Hopefully they aren't engaging
in drug use and or say unprotected sex or something
(08:46):
like that that kids may deal with. You're also not
wanting them to have anxiety and or other mental health
issues that can be brought on through trauma, because the
young brain sees and feels the trauma of frankly, an
accident and or something really dangerous happening at the same
level with the spanking and the pain that is happening
(09:07):
from potential discipline. And then you have someone saying I
love you and that's why I'm hurting you, and then
you get confused with what is is love. Pain is
meaning that I love you, meaning that I have to
cause you pain, or that you have to take the
pain that I cause. I mean it causes us to.
Then if we're confused in that, possibly get into unhealthy relationships,
(09:30):
possibly get into domestic violence situations, and or you know,
commit violence against others.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Yeah, nobody really wins at all.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And there's someone that's very it's someone that it's my
family that you know, their stepfather. How he brought him
up was by verbal abuse and by physical abuse. If
he did something that wasn't right, he would get the
you know, the crap snapped out of him.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
And that's how he thought.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Okay, well, if I if I screw up, I'm gonna
get my you know what kicked. And so, as a
man that has definitely affected him, You're never good enough,
You're never good enough, you know those kinds of things,
and you know, which is unfortunate because that's not true,
but that was his truth growing out.
Speaker 6 (10:22):
And the research bears that out. And so that's why
what we want just to make sure is that everyone
has access to the research. Everyone has access to you know,
this is the positive of this action or the negative.
The best thing we can hope for throughout all the
research and corporal punishment is one of the most researched
(10:43):
aspects of parenting that we have is it shows that
there is no positive impact from corporal punishment. None. That's
the best you can hope for is zero impact. And
all of the trends and all of the research shows
that it increases the likelihood of mental health disorders, whether
that be you know, anxiety, depression, or the likelihood that
(11:07):
they're going to engage in risky behavior and or violence
which draws them into the criminal justice system, which frankly
really isn't good for for anybody.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Yeah, no, or acceptance of violence for women, you know,
particularly thinking of women. You know, it's okay to be hit,
but he loves me, you know, you do that all
the time. And you just got to wonder where that
kind of core belief land's and you know, you think
about like parenting too. It's like, oh, don't hit your brother,
and now I hit you, Like what kind of message
is that sending? And I'm only smirking right now, you
(11:37):
guys can't see me. Is because I had this flashback
of this memory of my mom. I must have like
hit her or hit somebody as a kid. And she
she was She's just like the most lovely person and
very like miss She like got her parenting from mister
Rogers and so she actually, I kid you not, took
a pillowcase and drew herself as like a cartoon. It
(11:59):
was like when you feel this urge to like want
to hit, you can hit the pillow, but you're not
allowed to hit people. And I remember thinking it was
so weird and I was like, I'm not going to
hit that soone cool.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
So I think we did that pillow around. I think
I actually just slept with it because it was cute.
I love that her.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I mean, the way she was brought up is just
so very gentle.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Everything about her sort of it's not like we were perfect,
but there was like, you know, there's just funny things.
They were just kind of they're cute parents. But anyways,
that just kind of reminded me that and I think,
you know, going beyond all this conversation is like, yes,
don't do this, but here are some other tools. Like
there's so many wonderful resources for parents. And I'm speaking
on behalf of being a new parent myself in a
(12:40):
sense my son is seven. I'm not new, new, but
enough that you know, you need these resources. You need
your village, you need the podcast, you need the books.
You need to figure out how to manage, you know,
to break cycles or to you know, to bring up
children that are good without beating the.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
You know, want to have them whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
And it's interesting because I just this just came to
mind because The Breakfast Club.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
You all remember the movie The Breakfast Club. That's twenty
years ago.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Now all of them came together in Chicago or the
weekend to celebrate. But that movie just came to my
mind because if you remember the speech by Jude Law,
I know we don't call them delinquents today. My mom
taught delinquents growing up, and he was considered one on
the on the movie, but how he explains.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
How his dad treated him, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
It was physical assault and it was verbal assault and
so it was very very powerful, and you know, my
mom teaching you know, kids who who grew up very
very tough lives. A lot of that makes sense because
a lot of them went through that. Yeah, you know,
there's a reason you don't just throw with these kids away,
(13:51):
you know, And that's what I saw growing up. You know,
you get detention, there's something going on when the child
acts out.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it comes from a place.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
We have to acknowledge that parenting is basically, if not
the toughest, one of the toughest jobs anyone can do
in our society. Absolutely, and it is not an easy task.
So to try and give parents the tools they need
to hopefully succeed is what we need to try and
do every chance we get. You know, I have two girls.
(14:23):
One is seventeen now and one is fifteen, going to
be sixteen shortly. And so my wife and I when
we decided to have kids and then obviously had a child,
a girl, you know, we basically needed to make sure
that at no point in her life or now her
sister's life, do they ever correlate violence and pain with love.
(14:48):
We needed to make sure that it was ingrained in them.
So if they run into that and as they grow,
as they move into relationships, that they realize it's not okay,
that this is not some thing that you know, you
can tolerate. Violence and pain cannot be caused by someone
who loves you. And so you know, that's why we
(15:09):
chose what we did, which was not to use physical discipline.
And it's not easier parenting. It definitely is not easy parenting.
Trying to reason with say a seven year old, you know,
now trying to reason with a teenager.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
It's ermy.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Definitely.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
I'm already getting a little sass from the seven year
old where he's like outsmarting me, and I'm like, oh god,
this is gonna be a tough one. Anyways, So, okay,
you have some exciting projects in the works. We got
to talk about this, So tell us about the community
court project.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Well, the community Court actually this is we got a
grant six hundred thousand. Dan kind of got a grant
right before COVID and the Community Court. I think the
best way to look at it is it's a specialty
court that will hopefully have a different relationship between the
judge and the participant or the defendant. In order to
(16:06):
apply the best sort of treatment model we have within
the criminal justice system, meaning a judge building that relationship
and rapport with the person who has been brought into
the criminal justice system to try and direct them into
treatment or training and or potentially getting them connected to
housing or other needs so that they don't come back
(16:29):
into the criminal justice system. Early on, Dane County had
a team that went to New York to visit the
red Hook Community Justice Center. New York obviously is much bigger,
but they created a courthouse literally in the red Hook
area neighborhood and it is sort of a community court
(16:50):
where they handle cases up to I would say probably
mid level felonies all the way down to misdemeanors, and
they it's a different it's a different atmosphere. People are
treated differently. The judge does not sit on high above people.
You know, the judge is level. They're all communicating as
to what is really needed. What is it that brought
(17:13):
you here? How can we help to get you, you know,
on a path that is change that it revitalized the
Red Hook neighborhood. And I think obviously we don't have
the resources in Dane County to create a new courthouse,
so we're going to have to use the existing courthouse,
but we have i think a courtroom that was set
up for juvenile so it's more in a not traditional
(17:36):
sense of a courtroom. I think we can utilize that
space and hopefully we have a judge, Judged Tremmel, who
is interested in being the first judge of the Community Court,
and hopefully it will impact cases that are throughout the
system in Dane County. Hopefully that we'll be able to
(17:56):
connect them to resources and take actually some of the
work off of the other criminal judges because you know,
these will be cases that are you know, sent to
the community Court hopefully to be handled in a bit
of a different way than the traditional Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I think that's tremendous, you know, especially if you're you're
talking about a younger person going through that, to allow
them to feel still like a human being and to
be on a level with them emotionally and to talk
to them where they're not seen as you know, oh,
I'm just.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
A criminal criminals, I.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Don't belong here, nobody cares about me. Yeah. I think
that's great.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
Yeah, And it's amazing what it like just hearing people
out and loving them for them, you know, And that's
what it's really ultimately showing, is that we appreciate you
as a human and we're going to try and do
what we can because we all want those chances right absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Now.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
The interesting thing is this is sort of our second
chance that a different sort of alternative. We created the
Community Resortive Court that is sort of a system outside
of the criminal justice system where we do resortive circles
we handle cases, but obviously this is attached with a judge.
I think we are the community or sort of part.
We tried to get a lot of cases there precharge.
(19:11):
This allows us to also address those cases that came
through that we had to charge that we weren't able
to do a precharge referral. These are cases where we
do need some sort of record within the criminal justice
system about the behavior. It doesn't mean that these cases
may not be dismissed in the end. They potentially could be,
but we needed a little more than what we were
(19:34):
comfortable with referring to the Community Restorative Court. And I
think it's gonna hopefully give more relief to the other
criminal branches within Dane County an impact at some level
the entirety of the criminal justice system within Dane County,
which is what I'm really excited about, because we do
have resources in human services, we do have other resources
in the county. If we can sort of get a
(19:56):
one stop shop, which is what Red Hook Community Center
is all about. If you google them, they have some
great information. Judge Calibracey, who used to be the judge
over Red Hook, actually has come here to Dane County
and presented to the County Board. And so we do
have a relationship with them and with Sinners Recorded Intervention
(20:16):
which may have just changed its name, but for technical
support and with the grant that we got for implementation
and planning.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Wow, so powerful. Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I love this, you know. And for you personally to
have taken on this journey, this is your life, I
was talking to off Air. I mean this passion. Where
does this come from?
Speaker 6 (20:39):
That's a good question. I mean, I guess I'm born
and raised here.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
You know.
Speaker 6 (20:42):
Every time I really sort of thought I would get
out either for you know, undergraduate, I got into the UW.
For you know, law school. I got into the UW.
My wife at the time when I just before law school.
After we graduated undergrad went to d C and was
working out there. I went out there and looked at Georgetown,
looked at you know, GW, got waitlisted at GW. Realized, oh,
(21:06):
it's going to cost me four times as much as
it would cost me at UW to go to GW.
And I may not have to take a bar if
I go to UW, I might stay here. Luckily, she
she chose to come back and hang in there with me.
But yeah, it's been an interesting road, so giving back
to this community that gave me so much, that gave
(21:27):
me the opportunities I have. You know, every child is
going to make mistakes. We want to have, hopefully, you know,
a criminal justice system that allows them to make those
mistakes and continue on, you know, each of us. The
first criminal justice system we ever were involved in. It's
our home, it's our family. And really realized what was
(21:49):
the most powerful thing about, you know, engaging with a
justice system. It really wasn't the end punishment, like let's say,
if it was a spanking, it wasn't the end punishment.
The real you know, impact was you having to actually
own up and take responsibility for what gosh, yeah, and
then trying to figure out how to repair the harm.
(22:11):
I mean, that's what we really want to really create
empathy and change within an individual. And that's why you know,
it's great to share positive parenting information and that's why it's.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Great to talk and reading about it.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Can we use diversion? Can we do something different to
make ourselves safer? Because sending people to prison doesn't make
us safe, no, right, it delays more victimization if we
haven't created the real change to keep somebody out of
the system.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I find that I love that. I love that.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
It's the home is your first Yeah, you know, definitely
going to court is talking to his parent.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, you don't want to do the judge that definitely
with the love of my mom and grandmother brought me
up that way. I've talked about this before, but yes,
I got into the group of people when I was
in eighth.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Grade to start stealing.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And my gosh, did I learn my lesson because of
course I'm the one that got caught with my flaming
red hair.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Yes, and I did my mom.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
You know what my mom did as she goes the
police are going to pick up my daughter at the mall,
and then I want you to bring her to the jail,
and I want her to sit there and think about
what she just did, and then she take it even further.
I got thirty hours of community service, but I learned
my lesson. And my grandmother said to me, she goes, Krista,
(23:23):
do you want to be a leader or a follower?
That was the way I was brought up, and so
I learned my lesson right there.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Right I could have seen you sitting in jail. I
could still be there. I mean, good gosh, I know
your red hair.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
But giving you that option, that decision for me to say,
you know what, you don't have to follow and you
can be strong enough to actually hopefully turn your friends
maybe away from that. Yes, it might not be so smart.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
It's not the road that they wanted me to go on,
and that's not the road I would have wanted to
continue on.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
So that was a blessing in disguise for me. So
so much love to them.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Up in heaven. So Michelle, again, how can we support you?
Where can we follow you when it comes to such
you know important community, you know events that are happening here.
Speaker 6 (24:09):
Well, right now we are just getting back up and
running with the community justice or the community Justice Council.
It used to be the Criminal Justice Council. We changed
the name to Community Justice Council after hearing from the community.
We are just getting back up and running. Those meetings
typically are happening during the lunch hours at least once
a month for the Community Justice Council as a whole.
(24:30):
Then we have subcommittees on racial disparities, pre trial release,
and behavioral health, so mental health issues within the criminal
justice system, So we are looking at that. I do
believe we have a judge who is interested in potentially
a mental health court. So there's things that are in
the works, and those are recorded on the county website.
(24:51):
I think there's probably a link to some of them.
But yeah, I would love to come back anytime you want,
and yeah, you know, bring you up to speed on
where we are. But hopefully we'll start seeing some more
stuff happen within this next year to at least get
this up.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
I love it of it.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Yeah, come back and then tell me how to deal
with the teenage girl in like seven years we can
talk now.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Yeah, I still haven't figured that out.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
I know, right, I'm still in Princess, and you know,
let's where Mommy's heels right mode.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
So I'm not quite there, yeah, but I do.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Where now I'm getting ready for GA to now start
driving my car.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
So that's where I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
At in my Oh gosh, give it up to our
phenomenal da. Okay, we're with the da Okayla. We love you.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Thank you so much for you do.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
We can't wait to see you again.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
Thank you so much for thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
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Speaker 2 (00:15):
So, Krina, I am really excited about a very important
conversation that we are going to have today. It is
something that there are a lot of opinions around this conversation,
so it can be delicate as well, and so I
just wanted to let everybody who's tuning in right now
you will have definitely your idea of what you believe
(00:36):
is right or wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And again we keep this platform open.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
It's not a light topic, no, and I'll just put
it out there.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
For my generation growing up, it was not unheard of
to have your parent come on out with a belt
to spank you, or sometimes I would get the wooden spoon.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
My mom would be like running around. I'd be like,
you know, yeah, you gotta hide, you gotta hide, yeah
you know.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
But that's just was my generation growing I don't know
about you, No.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
It wasn't. It wasn't as much.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
I mean you kind of heard it a little bit,
maybe like swatting, but no, yeah, yeah, like my parents
never did. My parents punishment was we'd sit down and
talk about feelings and we were.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Like, oh God, oh I love that. Please don't do that.
We'll just behave. That's the love of God. That's why
you're so gentle.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So I just remember a couple times that I got
in trouble and.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Maybe I've gotten the belt before.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
But other than that, you know, all of our experiences
are very, very different. And when it comes to an
extraordinary man that works in our community, when it comes
to protecting us and giving us a voice and standing
up for what many of us believe in, he is
definitely that I am so honored to have back on
(01:49):
our show. Dane County District Attorney Ishmael Ozon, Hello, Ismael's
nice to see. Yes, yes, well, it's always a wonderful
thing to come across you in our community to see
you on TV because what you do on a daily basis,
I can't imagine is an easy process to be a
(02:09):
district attorney and what you see on a daily and
again for you to take your time with us today
means everything. So again we're going to get into some
tough topics. So let's get into this something that I
remember you being on our show we discussed the no
hit zone in corporal punishment. You have done so much
to educate us on the long term damage that corporal
(02:33):
punishment can do to our children and our society. So
what changes are you seeing since you established a no
hit zone and began talking about the effects.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Of corporal punishment. For those that don't know what this.
Speaker 6 (02:46):
Is, it's a great question, and I don't know that
I can say what impacts we've seen. We've tried to
just make sure that we can share all the information
so that parents actually have access to research and can
make educated decision on what they want to do to
parent their children. You know, parents love their kids, and
(03:06):
some parents may have grown up with corporal punishment and
that is how they were raised and want to continue.
We just want to make sure that they have access
to the data that shows that there really isn't a
positive impact from physical discipline. It's not illegal for a
parent to use physical discipline. The bar is whether it's reasonable,
(03:29):
and that bar is changed and determined by the community.
So in cases where frankly, a belt is used and
marks are left, you know, those are cases in which
we potentially could charge a felony level offense and go
to trial, and we've received guilty verdicts on those facts.
(03:50):
Usually the person is very clear, yes, I did this.
I told let's say little Johnny that this would happen
if he did X y Z again. He did it again,
and so I did what I did. You know, but
the research shows that if you're willing to use physical discipline,
you're eleven times more likely to come into the criminal
(04:12):
justice system for a felony level behavior. Because let's say
at one point in little Johnny's life, one little swat
with a hand was enough to in the parent's mind
correct the behavior. Well, they graduated to an instrumentality, whether
it be a belt or a spoon or let's say
an electrical court, and they hit him numerous times. Well,
(04:37):
you know, we're looking at whether you intentionally cause physical
harm to a child, and now we're looking at a
felony offense and potentially a conviction which could cause somebody
to lose their job, could cause somebody to lose their housing,
and doesn't strengthen the relationship between the child and the parents.
We want kids to be safe and in their home,
(05:00):
want that relationship to be strong between the child and parents.
The child can come to the parent with any problems
and hopefully get the support they need to deal with
some of the things that happen in this world that
no one wants to have happened to a child. But
we have to still deal.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
With absolutely, absolutely, and you know, and I know it
has definitely changed throughout time, and I know a lot
of people are definitely scared and they don't know what
to do or how to approach sometimes situations. And then
I think that's very true as well as the mental
health field. You know, a lot of our kids are
(05:41):
affected mentally, and you know, just to try to be
able to you know, protect them in all aspects.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Of course as parents, that's what we want. But again
it happens.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Yeah, well, and I think you touched on it too,
both of you.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
With the generational side, is that what is that the
correct term or the cycle.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Of the generation?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
Like you know, you kind of do what your parents
want to do or you break that cycle, right, And
obviously times have change, Like you think about the fifties,
like to spank your kids wasn't that wouldn't have been
unheard of, right obviously, And you're talking about that too.
It's just an it's an interesting topic because I'm a
(06:24):
young mom, you know, and and I think about things
that I brought on from my parents, and I think
about things that I left.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
You know with you know them, and.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
And and yeah, it really is. It's that that tool
of knowing enough to make your own decisions as a parent.
And I think that's what we're learning more and more
is that corporal punishment just doesn't work right well.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And then you know, I think, you know, and Ishmael
will obviously be the expert on this. This could cause,
you know, in a child fear trauma, they may think
that this is a correct way to discipline, and where
there you say, sometimes you know, they get into the
(07:08):
system because they think, you know, acting out on someone
using physical is the correct thing to do.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Is that do you find that?
Speaker 6 (07:16):
And that's the hard thing to really sort of point
out and explain is that when you're in this parent
child relationship right there is the person who is supposed
to love you and protect you now is potentially causing
you pain. And the hard thing is for a young
brain to understand that this person is supposed to love me,
(07:41):
but they're hurting me. It can cause a child to
misconstrue sort of what it is to love or protect.
And you get into a situation where might makes right,
where you're not talking about non violent conflict resolution, where
you're really now factoring in in that young brain, how
(08:01):
do I avoid pain? How do I avoid getting caught?
You know? Or at some point, well, the punishment's going
to be the punishment, I can take it, and therefore
I'll just do whatever I want. I think what we
really want as parents is is more of real decision
making for our children to occur when they aren't in
(08:23):
our presence. Right, So you want them to understand and
hear you when you say it's not smart or it's
dangerous for you to go into X, Y and Z,
And you want that to be in their mind, in
their consciousness when they're not in your presence. So hopefully
they aren't engaging in risky behavior. Hopefully they aren't engaging
in drug use and or say unprotected sex or something
(08:46):
like that that kids may deal with. You're also not
wanting them to have anxiety and or other mental health
issues that can be brought on through trauma, because the
young brain sees and feels the trauma of frankly, an
accident and or something really dangerous happening at the same
level with the spanking and the pain that is happening
(09:07):
from potential discipline. And then you have someone saying I
love you and that's why I'm hurting you, and then
you get confused with what is is love. Pain is
meaning that I love you, meaning that I have to
cause you pain, or that you have to take the
pain that I cause. I mean it causes us to.
Then if we're confused in that, possibly get into unhealthy relationships,
(09:30):
possibly get into domestic violence situations, and or you know,
commit violence against others.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Yeah, nobody really wins at all.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And there's someone that's very it's someone that it's my
family that you know, their stepfather. How he brought him
up was by verbal abuse and by physical abuse. If
he did something that wasn't right, he would get the
you know, the crap snapped out of him.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
And that's how he thought.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Okay, well, if I if I screw up, I'm gonna
get my you know what kicked. And so, as a
man that has definitely affected him, You're never good enough,
You're never good enough, you know those kinds of things,
and you know, which is unfortunate because that's not true,
but that was his truth growing out.
Speaker 6 (10:22):
And the research bears that out. And so that's why
what we want just to make sure is that everyone
has access to the research. Everyone has access to you know,
this is the positive of this action or the negative.
The best thing we can hope for throughout all the
research and corporal punishment is one of the most researched
(10:43):
aspects of parenting that we have is it shows that
there is no positive impact from corporal punishment. None. That's
the best you can hope for is zero impact. And
all of the trends and all of the research shows
that it increases the likelihood of mental health disorders, whether
that be you know, anxiety, depression, or the likelihood that
(11:07):
they're going to engage in risky behavior and or violence
which draws them into the criminal justice system, which frankly
really isn't good for for anybody.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Yeah, no, or acceptance of violence for women, you know,
particularly thinking of women. You know, it's okay to be hit,
but he loves me, you know, you do that all
the time. And you just got to wonder where that
kind of core belief land's and you know, you think
about like parenting too. It's like, oh, don't hit your brother,
and now I hit you, Like what kind of message
is that sending? And I'm only smirking right now, you
(11:37):
guys can't see me. Is because I had this flashback
of this memory of my mom. I must have like
hit her or hit somebody as a kid. And she
she was She's just like the most lovely person and
very like miss She like got her parenting from mister
Rogers and so she actually, I kid you not, took
a pillowcase and drew herself as like a cartoon. It
(11:59):
was like when you feel this urge to like want
to hit, you can hit the pillow, but you're not
allowed to hit people. And I remember thinking it was
so weird and I was like, I'm not going to
hit that soone cool.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
So I think we did that pillow around. I think
I actually just slept with it because it was cute.
I love that her.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I mean, the way she was brought up is just
so very gentle.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Everything about her sort of it's not like we were perfect,
but there was like, you know, there's just funny things.
They were just kind of they're cute parents. But anyways,
that just kind of reminded me that and I think,
you know, going beyond all this conversation is like, yes,
don't do this, but here are some other tools. Like
there's so many wonderful resources for parents. And I'm speaking
on behalf of being a new parent myself in a
(12:40):
sense my son is seven. I'm not new, new, but
enough that you know, you need these resources. You need
your village, you need the podcast, you need the books.
You need to figure out how to manage, you know,
to break cycles or to you know, to bring up
children that are good without beating the.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
You know, want to have them whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
And it's interesting because I just this just came to
mind because The Breakfast Club.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
You all remember the movie The Breakfast Club. That's twenty
years ago.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Now all of them came together in Chicago or the
weekend to celebrate. But that movie just came to my
mind because if you remember the speech by Jude Law,
I know we don't call them delinquents today. My mom
taught delinquents growing up, and he was considered one on
the on the movie, but how he explains.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
How his dad treated him, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
It was physical assault and it was verbal assault and
so it was very very powerful, and you know, my
mom teaching you know, kids who who grew up very
very tough lives. A lot of that makes sense because
a lot of them went through that. Yeah, you know,
there's a reason you don't just throw with these kids away,
(13:51):
you know, And that's what I saw growing up. You know,
you get detention, there's something going on when the child
acts out.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it comes from a place.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
We have to acknowledge that parenting is basically, if not
the toughest, one of the toughest jobs anyone can do
in our society. Absolutely, and it is not an easy task.
So to try and give parents the tools they need
to hopefully succeed is what we need to try and
do every chance we get. You know, I have two girls.
(14:23):
One is seventeen now and one is fifteen, going to
be sixteen shortly. And so my wife and I when
we decided to have kids and then obviously had a child,
a girl, you know, we basically needed to make sure
that at no point in her life or now her
sister's life, do they ever correlate violence and pain with love.
(14:48):
We needed to make sure that it was ingrained in them.
So if they run into that and as they grow,
as they move into relationships, that they realize it's not okay,
that this is not some thing that you know, you
can tolerate. Violence and pain cannot be caused by someone
who loves you. And so you know, that's why we
(15:09):
chose what we did, which was not to use physical discipline.
And it's not easier parenting. It definitely is not easy parenting.
Trying to reason with say a seven year old, you know,
now trying to reason with a teenager.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
It's ermy.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Definitely.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
I'm already getting a little sass from the seven year
old where he's like outsmarting me, and I'm like, oh god,
this is gonna be a tough one. Anyways, So, okay,
you have some exciting projects in the works. We got
to talk about this, So tell us about the community
court project.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
Well, the community Court actually this is we got a
grant six hundred thousand. Dan kind of got a grant
right before COVID and the Community Court. I think the
best way to look at it is it's a specialty
court that will hopefully have a different relationship between the
judge and the participant or the defendant. In order to
(16:06):
apply the best sort of treatment model we have within
the criminal justice system, meaning a judge building that relationship
and rapport with the person who has been brought into
the criminal justice system to try and direct them into
treatment or training and or potentially getting them connected to
housing or other needs so that they don't come back
(16:29):
into the criminal justice system. Early on, Dane County had
a team that went to New York to visit the
red Hook Community Justice Center. New York obviously is much bigger,
but they created a courthouse literally in the red Hook
area neighborhood and it is sort of a community court
(16:50):
where they handle cases up to I would say probably
mid level felonies all the way down to misdemeanors, and
they it's a different it's a different atmosphere. People are
treated differently. The judge does not sit on high above people.
You know, the judge is level. They're all communicating as
to what is really needed. What is it that brought
(17:13):
you here? How can we help to get you, you know,
on a path that is change that it revitalized the
Red Hook neighborhood. And I think obviously we don't have
the resources in Dane County to create a new courthouse,
so we're going to have to use the existing courthouse,
but we have i think a courtroom that was set
up for juvenile so it's more in a not traditional
(17:36):
sense of a courtroom. I think we can utilize that
space and hopefully we have a judge, Judged Tremmel, who
is interested in being the first judge of the Community Court,
and hopefully it will impact cases that are throughout the
system in Dane County. Hopefully that we'll be able to
(17:56):
connect them to resources and take actually some of the
work off of the other criminal judges because you know,
these will be cases that are you know, sent to
the community Court hopefully to be handled in a bit
of a different way than the traditional Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I think that's tremendous, you know, especially if you're you're
talking about a younger person going through that, to allow
them to feel still like a human being and to
be on a level with them emotionally and to talk
to them where they're not seen as you know, oh,
I'm just.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
A criminal criminals, I.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Don't belong here, nobody cares about me. Yeah. I think
that's great.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
Yeah, And it's amazing what it like just hearing people
out and loving them for them, you know, And that's
what it's really ultimately showing, is that we appreciate you
as a human and we're going to try and do
what we can because we all want those chances right absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Now.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
The interesting thing is this is sort of our second
chance that a different sort of alternative. We created the
Community Resortive Court that is sort of a system outside
of the criminal justice system where we do resortive circles
we handle cases, but obviously this is attached with a judge.
I think we are the community or sort of part.
We tried to get a lot of cases there precharge.
(19:11):
This allows us to also address those cases that came
through that we had to charge that we weren't able
to do a precharge referral. These are cases where we
do need some sort of record within the criminal justice
system about the behavior. It doesn't mean that these cases
may not be dismissed in the end. They potentially could be,
but we needed a little more than what we were
(19:34):
comfortable with referring to the Community Restorative Court. And I
think it's gonna hopefully give more relief to the other
criminal branches within Dane County an impact at some level
the entirety of the criminal justice system within Dane County,
which is what I'm really excited about, because we do
have resources in human services, we do have other resources
in the county. If we can sort of get a
(19:56):
one stop shop, which is what Red Hook Community Center
is all about. If you google them, they have some
great information. Judge Calibracey, who used to be the judge
over Red Hook, actually has come here to Dane County
and presented to the County Board. And so we do
have a relationship with them and with Sinners Recorded Intervention
(20:16):
which may have just changed its name, but for technical
support and with the grant that we got for implementation
and planning.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Wow, so powerful. Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I love this, you know. And for you personally to
have taken on this journey, this is your life, I
was talking to off Air. I mean this passion. Where
does this come from?
Speaker 6 (20:39):
That's a good question. I mean, I guess I'm born
and raised here.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
You know.
Speaker 6 (20:42):
Every time I really sort of thought I would get
out either for you know, undergraduate, I got into the UW.
For you know, law school. I got into the UW.
My wife at the time when I just before law school.
After we graduated undergrad went to d C and was
working out there. I went out there and looked at Georgetown,
looked at you know, GW, got waitlisted at GW. Realized, oh,
(21:06):
it's going to cost me four times as much as
it would cost me at UW to go to GW.
And I may not have to take a bar if
I go to UW, I might stay here. Luckily, she
she chose to come back and hang in there with me.
But yeah, it's been an interesting road, so giving back
to this community that gave me so much, that gave
(21:27):
me the opportunities I have. You know, every child is
going to make mistakes. We want to have, hopefully, you know,
a criminal justice system that allows them to make those
mistakes and continue on, you know, each of us. The
first criminal justice system we ever were involved in. It's
our home, it's our family. And really realized what was
(21:49):
the most powerful thing about, you know, engaging with a
justice system. It really wasn't the end punishment, like let's say,
if it was a spanking, it wasn't the end punishment.
The real you know, impact was you having to actually
own up and take responsibility for what gosh, yeah, and
then trying to figure out how to repair the harm.
(22:11):
I mean, that's what we really want to really create
empathy and change within an individual. And that's why you know,
it's great to share positive parenting information and that's why it's.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Great to talk and reading about it.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Can we use diversion? Can we do something different to
make ourselves safer? Because sending people to prison doesn't make
us safe, no, right, it delays more victimization if we
haven't created the real change to keep somebody out of
the system.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I find that I love that. I love that.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
It's the home is your first Yeah, you know, definitely
going to court is talking to his parent.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, you don't want to do the judge that definitely
with the love of my mom and grandmother brought me
up that way. I've talked about this before, but yes,
I got into the group of people when I was
in eighth.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Grade to start stealing.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And my gosh, did I learn my lesson because of
course I'm the one that got caught with my flaming
red hair.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Yes, and I did my mom.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
You know what my mom did as she goes the
police are going to pick up my daughter at the mall,
and then I want you to bring her to the jail,
and I want her to sit there and think about
what she just did, and then she take it even further.
I got thirty hours of community service, but I learned
my lesson. And my grandmother said to me, she goes, Krista,
(23:23):
do you want to be a leader or a follower?
That was the way I was brought up, and so
I learned my lesson right there.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Right I could have seen you sitting in jail. I
could still be there. I mean, good gosh, I know
your red hair.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
But giving you that option, that decision for me to say,
you know what, you don't have to follow and you
can be strong enough to actually hopefully turn your friends
maybe away from that. Yes, it might not be so smart.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
It's not the road that they wanted me to go on,
and that's not the road I would have wanted to
continue on.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
So that was a blessing in disguise for me. So
so much love to them.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Up in heaven. So Michelle, again, how can we support you?
Where can we follow you when it comes to such
you know important community, you know events that are happening here.
Speaker 6 (24:09):
Well, right now we are just getting back up and
running with the community justice or the community Justice Council.
It used to be the Criminal Justice Council. We changed
the name to Community Justice Council after hearing from the community.
We are just getting back up and running. Those meetings
typically are happening during the lunch hours at least once
a month for the Community Justice Council as a whole.
(24:30):
Then we have subcommittees on racial disparities, pre trial release,
and behavioral health, so mental health issues within the criminal
justice system, So we are looking at that. I do
believe we have a judge who is interested in potentially
a mental health court. So there's things that are in
the works, and those are recorded on the county website.
(24:51):
I think there's probably a link to some of them.
But yeah, I would love to come back anytime you want,
and yeah, you know, bring you up to speed on
where we are. But hopefully we'll start seeing some more
stuff happen within this next year to at least get
this up.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
I love it of it.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Yeah, come back and then tell me how to deal
with the teenage girl in like seven years we can
talk now.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Yeah, I still haven't figured that out.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
I know, right, I'm still in Princess, and you know,
let's where Mommy's heels right mode.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
So I'm not quite there, yeah, but I do.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Where now I'm getting ready for GA to now start
driving my car.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
So that's where I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
At in my Oh gosh, give it up to our
phenomenal da. Okay, we're with the da Okayla. We love you.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Thank you so much for you do.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
We can't wait to see you again.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
Thank you so much for thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
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