Bullpen Health, Free Agency vs Trades, and How Much Stock You Should Take from Spring Training.

Chuck and Anders return in the latest edition of "Stove" and the big discussion is the health of the Mariners bullpen going into the season.  They also get into the debate between adding to the team via free agency vs via trade, and how much should you care about spring training stats?

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Stove. What a kind of nameis that? Well, come into another
edition and it's about time we didanother edition of Stove our off season Mariners
podcast. Anders Hurst a rookie ofthe Year in the podcasting world. Here
and my name is Chuck Powell,and we have not done this in a

(00:22):
couple of weeks because anders is aglobe trotter and he married an Argentinian.
Yeah, I just had to.So he goes in vacations in her palatial
estate, family's palatial estate in Argentina, and he just leaves us with all
of these baseball thoughts and nowhere totake them. Yeah. I don't know
a lot. I don't know ifi'd call it a palatial estate. But

(00:44):
it was great to see my wife'sfamily for the first time. I might
add zero English was spoken, soI had to really just indulge into the
Spanish. And it's good for you. Yeah, I think so too.
It feels pretty good about it.Much better are you now than before the
trip? I understanding I'd say aboutunderstanding, I'd say about twenty to thirty
percent better. I could understand prettywell. It's forming sentences. That's the

(01:06):
tough part for me. It's it'sit's a lot harder to kind of speak
what you think than to try andpick out things that what other people are
saying, at least to me.So yeah, no, it was a
great time. Sorry I kind ofleft you guys hanging here for a little
bit as the Mariners opened up springtraining. But you heard you guys had
a good trip down to Arizona.Oh that was great. Yeah, yeah,
that was phenomenal. Yeah, wespoke to nearly if you got any

(01:27):
questions, we spoke to nearly everybig time Mariner player out down there.
So well, yeah, we hada we had a great trip, and
I'm really proud of the broadcast thatwe do, the coverage that we dide
for spring training, and so yeah, I think it was an a this
year. Did any specific interviews stickout to you in terms of like,

(01:47):
oh, maybe I wasn't expecting thisto be as you know, content heavy
as it was so many I meannormally they just you conduct interviews. We
were breaking news. Yeah, likeCal Roll saying Scott Boris isn't gonna get
in the way of me becoming alifelong Mariner, Harry Ford saying I'm not
transitioning out of catcher, they cantrade me. I mean he didn't say

(02:10):
it that bluntly, but he basicallysaid that. So he's not gonna move
from outside of catcher. We brokeyou know, uh, Bryce Miller,
I mean I think people are peoplealready knew that story was already broken,
but he broke down his new pitch. Ye, So that was good.
George Kirby revealed to us that he'sgoing to throw his knuckleball this year,

(02:36):
something as a regular weapon that he'sgonna bring and never could be any more
likable, my god, never ahistory of baseball as somebody combined one hundred
miles per hour fastball with a knuckleball. God. And so he said he
was gonna he's gonna use it thisyear. He's he's determined to use it.
I don't think he's used it yetin the spring. Yeah, but
we never get to watch them play. Yeah, and so yeah, I

(02:58):
mean it was just one after thenafter another. It was It was great.
Yeah, maybe as underrating it.Yeah, I think it was an
eight plus a week go down there. Yeah. It was awesome. Weather
it was good, of course,Arizona. Yeah, it was ideal,
seventy five degrees in the day andyou know, you know, put on
a sweatshirt and go out at night, set outside beautiful. So I know

(03:21):
I'm from I'm not from there,but I lived fifteen years of my adult
life there. It's first place Iever chose to live. So it still
feels like home to a very strongdegree. Got to see a lot of
my closest friends. Didn't tell alot of my other friends I was going
to be there because I didn't havetime. Good call. But yeah,
I mean there was something to doevery night. It was. It was

(03:43):
a blast. We had a greattime. That's awesome. Yeah, hearing
that knuckleball George Kirby story makes mewant to buy George Kirby jersey. Of
course, something can get last year'sjersey, not this year's jersey, because
you know, the whole stuff goingon. So that was another big thing.
I know they hate the jerseys.They look terrible. They do.
Yeah, and it's not by theway, just to clarify, because you
know, we mentioned this on theair, but if people maybe people just

(04:05):
only listen to our podcast from MarinerInformation. It's not the Mariners, right
everyone. Baseball decision there deal withNike and apparently Nike does not know how
to make baseball whear. And it'snot just the lettering on it. The
players absolutely hate the way that theyfit. It's okay to say his name

(04:28):
now because he's on the committee toget the uniform thing fixed. So there's
a Mariner player, cal Raley,walking down the hallway. I go,
hey, how do you like thoseuniforms? They suck? He speaks his
mind. He does not sugarcut anything, and then he goes, hey,
by the way, don't tell anybodyI said that. And I said,

(04:49):
but you do want me to saywhat you said, just don't put your
names on it. Absolutely do that. Absolutely do that. But since that
time, he's like, he's onthe committee to get them changed before the
start of the year. Yeah,so I don't think he minds me outing
mentioned that. No, Yeah,I'll find out. I think at this

(05:10):
point it's it's cats out of thebag. Most players don't like it.
So, yeah, I thought itwas a fanatics thing, not a Nike
thing. Ah, I think itmight be both. Yeah, I have
to look more into that. Iwas fat like a part of a division
of Nik. Well, no,they're the distributors. I think. I
don't know. I have to lookinto that. There's a lot of Jerseys
jersey talk going on. I tooktwo weeks off, so I wasn't as

(05:33):
indulged it as possible. So Spanish, yeah, yeah, well hopefully I
get to that point. But anyways, well, we are still in the
off season, so it's it's goodto mention just a couple updates from Mariners
fans who may not follow the restof the MLB as heavily as they follow
their their favorite baseball team from Seattle. I think the first thing to mention

(05:55):
would be that Blake Snell and JordanMontgomery are both still available, and you
know, going in the offseason,those are two of the biggest pitchers that
any team could add. So hereare two weeks away from opening day here
on March fourteenth, they are stillavailable. I don't know what the question
marks are with Snow. Obviously,endurance has been a question mark his entire

(06:15):
career. I don't know if peoplethink he's on the verge of getting injured.
I don't know if there's some secretthing about his character that we don't
know about, but clearly his agenthas overestimated what his value was going to
be on the open market, andit would be a shame for Blake,
yeah, if he has to endup settling for a one year deal.
But think about this, Andrews.The New York Yankees lost Garrett Cole this

(06:36):
week or at least a month,probably two. And with these type of
injuries, you know, usually theyjust don't go away, which is why
we just can't think Matt Brash isgoing to be all right. You know,
when you have injuries pop up likethis, especially to elbows, there's
a risk at any moment you refreshyour Baseball you know, trade rumors page,

(06:57):
and you find out Garrett Cole's gettingTommy John Serr out for a year
and a half. So you evenlose your race. You are the high
largest market and the sport. Youare planning to win a World Series this
year, and you're still not goingto Snell or Montgomery, and Montgomery used
to be on your team. Yeah, knocking on the door to say,
okay, what do you need?Yeah, you know, so obviously there's

(07:21):
a real disconnect between agent and baseballas to what these two guys are working.
Yeah, and I'm sort of notsurprised that Bellinger's not signed yet.
If if you were to take thosethree players Snell, Montgomery, Bellinger and
say which one are you expecting?Which one sign? Okay, yeah,
Belenger signed with the Cubs, Right, that's that's sorry, That's what I

(07:43):
meant. Montgomery and Snell. Myfault on that one, But that Montgomery
is the one that surprises me becauseBlake Snell, you can kind of there's
a lot of varying opinions about hisability. You could just look internally and
see how the Rays treated him allthe way back in twenty twenty in the
World Series. Uh, and thenyou I mean, he won a Siung

(08:05):
this past year, but there's stillpeople that think, like, oh,
you know, it wasn't you know, the expected stats weren't as great as
his actual result stats were. ButMontgomery seems like a guy. It just
seems like to me that he isone of those players that you know you're

(08:26):
gonna you know exactly what you're gonnaget from him, and it seems like,
I don't know, maybe it's theagent thing, but he seems like
one of those players that wouldn't overvaluehimself. He knows who he is as
a pitcher. He's not a fullon ace of any rotation. But he's
a good left handed pitcher who's hadabove average ERA in the past six years
or five years. Well, youjust said it. Yeah, he's not

(08:48):
an ACE. Yeah, so ifhe's asking for ACE money, yeah,
then he's out of luck because he'snot an ACE. But he is he
could be a number two. Hewas a number two for the range.
He stays healthy. He hasn't hadany injury issues like on that front.
But yeah, well keep this inmind though the Yankees were in the playoff
race two years ago and traded himat the deadly Yeah, that's true.
So there's something. This is againthis is where I we don't know all

(09:11):
of the variables, right, there'ssomething that we're not we don't know about
Blake Snell that is scaring off peoplein Major League Baseball and they won't tell
us. And I think there's probablysomething about Jordan Montgomery. Yeah, I
mean how the Rangers not brought himback. Yeah, you know, he's
been traded two times in the lasttwo years. Rangers need pitching too,

(09:31):
and the Rangers need pitching, soyeah, and especially if they're gonna defend
that crown. I don't know thatthat is a good question. There's a
lot of optic kind of things tolook at here about what other teams think
of them. The other kind ofbig move that just happened recently is that
Dylan cease trade. He has beentraded to the San Diego Padres. I'm
glad you brought this up. Andfrom this standpoint, I'm so relieved you

(09:52):
didn't want him here. No,I didn't want him in Texas. Oh,
fair enough, okay, because thecease rumors started to burn again,
Like first of all was the Yankeeswhen the cold Coal injury news comes up,
So then it's the Yankees brought themup, and I'm like, okay,
that's fine, And then the nextday the Rangers came up. Oh

(10:15):
no, that fits way too well, that that's too good of a fit
for the Rangers right now, areconvinced because their bullpen performed well last year
and the playoffs strength miraculously, andbecause they pieced together some sort of starting
pitching rotation in the postseason, theyactually have falsely convinced themselves they can pitch.

(10:39):
They didn't last year in the regularseason, and they can't. So
that's that's the edge that you haveover them. If you're holding out hope
that the Mariners can possibly surpass themand even win the American League West.
We don't need them to wise upand acquire good pitchers. Yeah, no,
that that'd be a bad thing.So I was paying a little bit

(11:01):
of and then the Padres news cameup, and I'm like, come our
Padres, let's go Padres. Yeah, even though you try to ship payroll,
go go at, Yeah, youcan't figure out who you are.
They're so confused, go for andget out. You've got to have him
on. You're very confused to theroster. And so I was actually very
glad to see. And that's whatkind of stinks, because if these were

(11:26):
offensive players, then you know,we get to at least entertain the possibility
of adding to them to this team. But when pitchers come up, they're
like, well we really don't needhim. No, well I don't want
the Rangers to get him, Sofor him to go completely outside of the
American League, yes, that wasgood news. Yeah. And plus like

(11:48):
the reaction to that I found veryinteresting because like everyone's all like, oh,
the San Diego Padres might have thebest rotation in baseball now, and
I'm like, really, really,here's the rotation one through five, Dylan
cease, Joe Musgrove all right,you Darvish okay, Michael Yeah, Michael
King from the Yankees last year,and Matt Waldron the knuckleballer. Yeah.

(12:15):
I think I think King's got achance to be very good. I do
too. I like think Darvish ison the decline, and it has been
now for a number of years.I'll take Hours over there, one hundred
percent. That's what I was exactlywhat I was gonna say. I still
think the Mariners almost I don't wantto use the term leaps and bounds over,
but it's it's a significant amount betterthan the San Diego Potter is even
considering you have a man from Man. Yeah, I like Dylan ceased,

(12:37):
but he'd be the number four guyin this rotation based off of how they
pitched a year ago exactly and wherethey're trending. Yeah, I mean I'm
not. I mean, who's theA is is Musgrove? The ACE has
ceased? The Ace? I'll takea CEO. Yeah, I'll take Kirby
over. I'll take I'll take ourthree guys over anyone guy, anyone.

(12:58):
Yeah. I completely agree, andit's just it goes to show how I
don't know, it just never seemslike the externally over throughout the league,
the Mariners really get the credit theydeserve. I know people think, oh,
they have good pitching, but Idon't think they really see them as

(13:18):
like the best pitching in the league, which I think there's a very high
probability that that is the case.Some have the best, some do.
But I think you're right. Ithink the national collective is to we don't
know them as well. We don'twatch as many of their games as we
do, right, I mean,And so I mean, is there there's

(13:39):
East Coast bias? It exists.Yeah, it's because people tend to gravitate
toward what they're more familiar with.So I think there are the national consensus
is off because they just aren't exposedenough to what we have in our starting
rotation. But those that are inthe know, they know, you know,
the ones that you really do respect. They're notedge, the Verducci's,

(14:01):
the Durosas, the Gammons, youknow those guys. They're all talking.
And there's one thing that changes thatkind of more general perspective, A deep
playoff run. A deep playoff runwill change everything and kind of get more
eyes on this team. Get in, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
get in and then we'll take ourchances that one of the six. I
don't care if it's number six.I don't even be one of the six.

(14:22):
I don't either. I still thinkMarriers have a chance to win the
AL West this year, though,I really do. I would say a
chance. I'm not pigging them,so I don't see them as the favorite,
but yeah, yeah, I thinkthey've got a chance. Well,
one thing that kind of is abig factor going into that whole equation is
the health of a specific group,and that's the bullpen, and that seems
to be a little bit of thedownside of spring training this year. We've

(14:46):
seen some pretty good offense. Youknow, how much of that can you
really, you know, take intoperspective. Well, we'll talk about that
in a second, but the bullpenseems to be a little bit banged up
at this point. Jackson Cohar isgoing to have to get Tommy John,
you got Gregory Santos just got shutdown. We had the Matt Brash news
and even though it wasn't worst casescenario with him, it still is a

(15:07):
little bit concerning what's your overall concernlevel for the bullpen? How confident are
you that they're going to be ableto replicate or surpass what they did last
year? Moderately high. I'm ata seven now for the year. You
know, I can only go onwhat they're saying. Yeah, Brash will
be available, Santos will be available. But obviously we want a good start.

(15:31):
And it makes you nervous to bedown two guys already two of your
back three. Yeah, my dadexactly. So I have a lot of
faith in this organization, and Ithink everybody should. And the ability to
recognize those under the radar gems thatcome out of the bullpen and then to

(15:54):
be able to develop them, andthen Pete Woodworth work with them, and
then Scott's Service's ability to utilize themin games. I think it might be
what they're best at and the entireorganization and their track record proves that.
But even when they're at their best, you know, that's one or two
guys that that that their kind ofcareer turning around. It was see Walden's

(16:15):
steckin Ryder one year and and ISaddler too. Sadler, Yeah, but
long term, only one of thoseguys worked out. You can throw it
Eric Eric Swanson in there as well. Well yeah, yeah, but for
those those three guys in particular thatstepped up out of nowhere, Like where
did these guys come from? Oneof the three is still a one of

(16:37):
them at longevity, one of themhad injury, and one was just smoking
mirror. Yeah okay, And thenso they are good. That's three guys
in one off season. And evenyou think back to this offseason or this
last season, you know Salsado inspiredactually contributed, Like where did that come
from? Topa, Topa? Soso they're pretty good for two or three

(17:02):
guys a year. Yeah, butto already start leaning on that, depending
on that before the season even starts, not letting that develop on its own.
Yeah, over time, And Ifrankly don't think Spire and Sasato are
going to repeat what we saw fromthem a year ago. And we don't
have Topa anymore, yeah to leanon. So they do have a bit
of a track record for developing twoor three relief pitchers every year that you

(17:26):
didn't see coming. And now you'regoing to depend on that at least to
start the year. Yeah, Andyou know we've talked about the slow starts
for the past like three years forthe Mariners, and you know what the
cause of that is, and alot of people kind of point to the
offense and me being a little bitcolder for that reason. I think a
lot of it has to do withhealth of the pitching staff, because if
you remember last Jandres Munoz started theyear off for about two months, right

(17:49):
he was out of the lineup,and I think once he came back,
the team looked totally different. SoI think this is going to have a
similar sort of effect if we don'tsee those guys for an extended period of
time. So yeah, I reallyI'm pretty concerned. It's it's not something
that you know, the sexy thingthe bullpen to think about and how good
your team is and stuff, andyou can look at Polanka and how he's

(18:11):
mashing the ball and be excited forMitch Garver having an actual DH and Mitch
Andinger coming back, but having ahealthy bullpen is really, really, really
helpful, especially for a young pitchingstaff like the Mariners. However, I
will say one positive side of thatis the fact that we have six good
starting pitchers at this point. Youcould throw Emerson Hancock into the sixth spot.
I don't know if you're gonna doa six man rotation or if you're
gonna maybe move one of those guysinto the bullpen for a more long relief

(18:36):
sort of situation. It will kindof see how they play with that,
but you have the arms available tokind of piece that together at least to
cover up that void. At thispoint, I would be surprised by either
of those things that I would ifthey went six man rotation. I don't
think there's any chance at all.Okay, and then I don't think they're
gonna stunt Hancock's development as a starterand all the progress by shortening him up

(19:00):
now. So I think unless there'san injury, and hopefully that does not
occur, right, I think Emerson'sstarting in Tacoma, and then is there
at the sign of the first injury, which you're going to have one at
some point during the season. Soyeah, Stanic ends up being a really

(19:25):
suddenly important pickup late in the processbecause he's probably your eighth inning guy.
If he can get ramped up andready to go, he's probably your eighth
inning guy to start the year.He has a track record, and he
does. He absolutely does. Justhe's in every other guy. Every other
year he's very good. Every otheryear he's not so good, and he's

(19:45):
coming off ed not so good year. So maybe he's due the good one.
That bodes well. I'm excited forthat. Yeah, got terrible hair,
like maybe the worst in the entiresport. But he throws a hundred.
Vargas throws a hundred. I meanthey've got as Scott's servis put it
a poop ton of velocity, onlyhe didn't say poop Yep, that's that's

(20:07):
true. Yeah, but it's anasty splitter too, that's kind of his
main pitch. Yeah, but rightnow, I mean, yeah, it's
a concern. I'd say like aseven on a scale from one to ten.
I was really excited about Santos brashand Munios is only going to have
one of those guys available to you. And even Munnos is being slow played.
Yeah, I think he's had likewhat two appearances yeah, in the
spring to this point, so evenhe's you know, they're they're being very

(20:30):
careful with him to this stage inthe process. So you piece it together.
Here's the thing about those two orthree pieces because it takes time to
figure out which ones those are.Yeah, So at the beginning of the
year, when you're trying to getoff to a good start, you're not
sure which of these guys are goingto click at the major league level.
So the experimentation that's going to takeplace in the first month to recognize those

(20:55):
that can stick in the bullpen,that experimentation is now going to be taking
plays in the seventh and eighth innings, Yeah, not in the not in
the sixth. Yeah. Fortunately,great starting rotation, so you shouldn't need
anybody before the sixth right for awhile, theoretically, theoretically, but yeah,
I don't like the experimentation in yourseventh and eighth innings trying to close

(21:18):
the gap to Munjos before you canfigure out who are the right guys for
the job. Yeah, and ifyou like, we talked about Munyos not
starting the year or with the teamlast year, his kind of end of
the year wasn't the greatest either,because they had to lean on him after
the Seawall trade. So there's alot like it's so important even if you
don't have, you know, aplus guys, just to have those bodies

(21:41):
where you kind of trust someone togo in there, take a couple of
innings and not throw the game awayfor you. It's so important not to
have to lean on a guy everysingle day like the Mariners did during August,
which ended up working well for themduring that month, but it kind
of paid off down the stretcher.Yeah, so that's it. It's definitely
something to watch going forward. Maybethey make a under the radar addition going

(22:04):
into the year. Maybe. Imean, I guess that could be Ryan
Stanick too, but I'm interested tosee how that plays out, how long
brashes out, how long Santos isout, and how big of an addition
stan it can be, and howmuch he can contribute. I'd say one
more thing. I just this,This just needs to be said. Yeah,
for anybody that is saying Cowar equalsKelnick, Okay, this is not

(22:32):
something that the Mariners organization should beproud of that they pulled off a trade
like this now, but this makeno mistake about this. They traded Kelnick
for two reasons. One because hecreated because the Braves would take on the
contracts of Evan White and Marco Gonzalez, and because of what ownership did they

(22:56):
had to create cap space, ifyou will, quotes air quotes exactly.
They had to create cap space inorder to afford some of the other pieces
that they wanted to acquire in theoff season. So kell Nick was not
traded for Koar. Kel Nick wastraded for cap space money. Yeah,
and then second Daryl and he hadto be including the trade because the Braves

(23:18):
had to get something out of giveit, you know, taking on bad
contracts. Okay, Coar and Kelnickwere just their core and Phillips were just
kind of thrown into the mix asthey might click yeah, but probably won't
yeah, okay, yeah, Andso the what you got back in return

(23:42):
for kel Nick was not as importantto the organization as the money they were
able to do. And that's whatended up giving you the opportunity to go
get Jorge Polonco and to go Imean, yeah, it was after that,
but or Civitch Garver exactly exactly.So, yeah, I think that's
a good distinction to make because thereare people a lot of people comparing the

(24:03):
two. However, is struggling,Yeah, is mightily yeah, and so
much so that the Braves took aflyer on Adam Duval just today, is
that right? Yeah, to possiblyplatoon him all we've seen that, We've
seen that story before. It's theAj Pollock of the Braves now. So
I mean, I think it's gonnaclick for him, And yeah, I

(24:26):
think I think we're gonna not likewhat we see for the rest of our
lives on this front. But there'scertainly a risk element with him and whatever's
going on between those ears. Imean there's there are rats running loose up
in there. There are bats inthe belfry at times, and so they're

(24:47):
like he could end up being abust. I think he's gonna work for
them, and I think he's gonnawork to the point where we're not gonna
be comfortable watching Braves highlights. Yeah, this season, but don't as an
arrest to make that's another part ofthe trade. I think they were done.
I were sick of dealing with it. Yeah, And I think both
things can be true. I don'tthink it was ever going to work out

(25:08):
here in Seattle, but I alsothink he's going to succeed in Atlanta.
I think those two things both canbe true. I just it's just the
pressure, you know, being thetop guy you traded away when Diaz for
it. Just I don't know,it's the vibe around him, and you
know, the team was wasn't great, sought service, wasn't really trusting him

(25:30):
in big spots down the stretch lastyear. I don't know. I don't
know what it is about Kellenick andhis relationship with the group or his relationship
with management, but or if it'sjust internally, if it's just him with
this inside his head, how Ijust never thought it was going to work
out here in Seattle. So butagain, I do think that the tools
are there for him to be areally good player. And if there's anyone

(25:52):
that can tap into that, it'sthe Atlanta Braves. So yeah, I
would not be surprised if he is. You have some support in the lineup,
Yeah, I think a little bitfrom the probably the best offense in
baseball. Okay, now we've talkeda little bit about this, but the
Murders offenses looked dang good here inspring. Some guys that are stepping up
in key spots. You know,how much of that do you really follow

(26:17):
and then take take account of goinginto the season. You know, Jorge
Polanco has been probably the offensive storyof the of the spring training so far,
Mitch Garver's looked good, Mitch Haniger'slooked healthy, which I think is
the main thing. That's a big, huge, huge, huge piece.
Uh. And again no injuries fromeither one of those three guys who all

(26:37):
had uh a little hitting exactly.Yeah. So how much of that do
you, uh, how much stockdo you put into that going into the
season. Unfortunately, not very much. Okay. I mean, I tell
you a story. I was playedfantasy baseball for the first time in my
life. I was seventeen years old. There you go. Okay, so
this is going back to the eighties. Okay, okay, this late eighties

(27:00):
fantasy in the eighties. Wow,that's right, Okay. And so it
had really pretty much just come out, like there was a book that was
written that explained how it was done. Keith Oberman was part of like the
first ever fantasy league that was everassembled, and so they wrote a book
about it. Yeah, and thenit caught on. Well, we got

(27:21):
this book about my buddy Pat Marshalland his brother Moe. We're like,
we got to try this. Thisis amazing. So very first year we
did it, I don't even knowwhy we did this, but you're supposed
to start with two hundred and sixtydollars. Yeah, well, we didn't
have two hundred and sixty dollars each. That's what you're supposed to bid with
because it's an auction. And sowe got two hundred and sixty pennies.

(27:41):
And for some reason, we allhad jars of pennies when all we had
to do was just keep track ofthe math, right paper, but we
carried these jars of pennies up there. So I wanted to get off to
this right great start. So I'min high school and I'm every day going
to the library and getting the newspaperand you know, on the big giant
stick. You probably don't even knowthis, you're too young. You go

(28:03):
to the library and all the newspaperswould be on big giant sticks so nobody
would steal them. So you takeyour big giant stick over to the table
and then you would read the newspaperon the giant stick. Yeah. And
so I'm taking notes on all thespring training guys killing it, and I
came up with the steal of allsteels. Okay, Tory Lavolo and I

(28:26):
went big, Yeah, seventeen pennieson Tory Lavolo, and I thought,
I just I just slipped one pastthese two idiots, you know, That's
what I'm thinking to myself. AndI think he had like one hit in
his first thirty nine at back andgot cut and now he's the manager of
the diamond Backs. That's hilarious.Yeah, so that's the last time I
put too much stock in spring trainingnumbers. And it will never happen again.

(28:49):
It won't happen again. The truthof the matter is that you can't
trust the statistics. They truly areworking on things and not you us,
the Mariners, the other team aswell, their pitchers are working on things
and it you know, and soit's not really fair. You don't overreact
to the bad pitching lines of LoganGilbert, and you don't overreact to the

(29:12):
good hitting lines of Mitch Hanniger.But all of that said, Andrews,
when you have worries and concerns aboutnew additions that have been made, it's
better than them stinking true. It'sat least they're You're not sitting there going

(29:34):
is Hanniger washed? Looks like hecan hit major league pitchings. Yeah,
he's healthy. That's literally the onlything that I he's healthy. He looks
healthy. He made a great catchon a show Tani ball yesterday and then
is in the lineup again today.Yes, so he you know, he
didn't get banged up. Yeah,I mean, Rayley's really scuffling. But

(29:56):
there's also that thought of good,get your hold slump exactly out of the
way here, and you'll be heatingup right as the start of the season.
So I don't put too much stockin any of it. But I
don't think anybody at any level wouldrather see their hitters scuffling now heading into
the regular season. You always wantto see them hit, yeah, because

(30:18):
it sort of suggests that they're onthe right path. Yeah. So yeah,
don't put too much stock in it. But I'm not dismissing it entirely.
Yeah, but I mean as muchof a mental game that baseball is.
All these guys that haven't played forin competitive games for what three four
months now, maybe five, Idon't know. I can't do the math
right now, But just having theconfidence to be able to go up and

(30:41):
see the ball, you're hitting itfine, and just get back into the
swing of playing games. I thinkthat's what spring training is. All about.
So yeah, like you said,it's all we have to react to
right now, right, so it'swe'll take it, We'll take it.
I want to get your raw reactionto this because I saw this this morning.
I didn't mention this when we weretalking about what we would chat about
before. But there was a fanGrafts article today talking to a bunch of

(31:06):
gms around the league and their firsttrades that they ever made, right,
And of course Jerry Depoto's would comeup, and like, I think there
might have been a couple of smallertrades before, but his first trade that
he made was the Mitch Hanniger forkateel Martek trade. So interesting, not
even yeah right, not even thetrade itself. It was the headline maker
for Mariner's Twitter, but it waskind of the quotes surrounding it. So

(31:34):
apparently. I think Mike Hazen theDiamondbacks GM, he's been there for Yeah,
he's still there now. Was theywere trying to, you know,
haggle a deal for Jerry Depot toget Mitch Hanneger. He Dipoto liked Hanneger,
he wanted him in the lineup.He hadn't really shown the breakout stuff

(31:55):
yet, Uh, and Katel Martehad just had a pretty good year.
So this is what Hazen said aboutDepoto. So Hazen says, I remember
him saying to me, you're notscrewing me on this one, are you,
Depoto says with a laugh, Isaid, no, the trades don't
screw you. The free agents do. To account for this nagging uncertainty about

(32:17):
Hanneger, Hazen asked that Marte beincluded in the deal. So it's it's
interesting how Jerry Depoto being, aswe've talked about many, many, many
times, a little too transparent sometimesabout what he thinks about the whole process.
Uh, the trades don't screw you, the free agents do, was

(32:37):
his exact quote. So, uh, what are your thoughts on that?
Well, that kind of explains alot. Yeah, and there is an
element that there is. Yeah,by the way, I'm not look,
I want them to spend more.Yeah, and I understand that. But
free agency for an organization that historicallyclaims poverty right free. There's nothing that

(33:00):
gets you shut down when you've gotsomething good quicker than bad investments in free
agents that don't work out, anda lot of them don't work out at
really high price tags. I mean, the the amount of I wanted Chris
Bryant. Are you are you?You know when he was a free agent.

(33:20):
Do you know how f we wouldif we had Chris Bryant right now?
We would That's all we would have. I want to Nick Cass there's
a we don't. We wouldn't have. We wouldn't have Mitch Garver, we
wouldn't have I mean, with this, this whole thing would be it'd be
Chris Bryant trying to get anything outof Chris Bryant in the lineup, probably

(33:42):
playing first base. So I mean, now he wasn't my first choice.
Marcus Simeon was my first choice thatyear, So that would have worked out
that that would have worked out beautifully. But you just I mean, it's
a dangerous, high stakes poker game, and it's why everybody that wants to
cite collusion. No. Free agencyis way too damn risky. And people

(34:04):
have already committed what they wanted tocommit financially this year, So if you
wanted money, you needed to stepup earlier. So there's some elements.
There's an element to that that Ithink is pretty transparent, and I don't
entirely disagree with I think free agencyis there for supplementation of a product that

(34:27):
has been built, built well fromthe ground up. Like you're good without
any free agents. But if youwant to win it all now, you
go get them, or you dowhat Houston did and you go trade for
a Erlander and a coal when you'reready to go because you stocked your farm
system so well, those are thethose are the stories that we want to

(34:49):
repeat. We want to repeat whatthe you know Cubs did. We want
to repeat what the Astros did.You know. We don't want to repeat
what the Marlins did. You know? Two wor championships, sure, but
zero interest from their fan base,right, a god awful looking new stadium
that they screwed the public over onon buying. Yeah, and nine out

(35:15):
of ten seasons lost causes. Yeah, that's not the organization that you want.
I don't care if they do havetwo championship banners. Yeah. I
want to be the Cardinals. Idon't want to be the Marlins. Yeah,
I'm with you on that. Ithink there is an element you mentioned
that the scenarios where you do goand get a free agent, it's it's
you know, when you have thefoundation to where if it doesn't work out,

(35:37):
you're still okay and your team isstill going to be good and you
can still compete for the for theplayoffs, but if it does work out,
then you're a championship contender. AndI think that's where the Mariners are
right now, where like if wewere to make go go take a swing
on one of these guys. Now, of course, the the cap quote
unquote that we talked about that ownershipis being put on the team, it's

(36:00):
going to probably hinder your chances togo get one of those guys. So
you kind of have to be creativein how you add, as we have
seen them do this past offseason.But you're in a place where you have,
you know, the foundation with youngguys and cheap guys at this point
in their careers to where you cantake a swing on a couple, maybe
one one or two guys, towhere like, hey, if this doesn't

(36:22):
work out, we're not going tobe screwed long term because our team's still
going to be fine, and ifwe need to, we can trade one
of them if we're not in it, like the kind of see what the
Mets did last year, right,They took a couple big, huge contracts,
but then it didn't work out,so they ended up trading them at
the deadline and got some prospects backso they can reload again for next year.
So well, the Cubs are agreat example. The Cubs built their

(36:45):
franch I mean they rebuilt. Imean, how often do you see a
big market club that's the third largestmarket in America, a franchise that sells
out their stadium even when they loseone hundred games. Yeah, and they
stripped it all all the way downunder theo Epstein and built it back up
through the draft. Bryant Biaz Schwarber, I mean, the list goes on.

(37:10):
And yet before they were even readyto win, they added John Lester
via free agency because it's like,that's the leader that we need that stabilizes
our rotation. Now we don't haveto rely on draft picks. We'd have
a starting pitcher stabilize our rotation.And that was a huge addition for them.

(37:31):
They also, though, added theirother big free agent signing, Jason
Hayward, who was a total bust. Yeah, he was total bust for
the Chicago but it worked out.Number one, because a big market club
didn't balk at while we can carrythat salary, maybe the Mariners freak out
if they have to carry the salaryof a crappy baseball player. The other

(37:54):
thing was they were so well constructedthey could make up for exactly Yeah.
Yeah, I think both of theLike, maybe the first part isn't as
realistic for Mariners fans to expect fromthe Mariners. Well, Castillo's sort of
that. I mean when they tradedfor Castillo because they gave up tradable assets,
right, and then they re signedthem to a long term Oh no,

(38:15):
yeah, yea, yeah, Imean the first part in the Hayward
comment was like, the big marketteam doesn't bock at having a bad contract,
right right. The Mariners, asyou said, probably would and if
that ever happens, will But Istill think they're constructed well enough and give
to total credit in this sense.This is what the team that he built

(38:37):
from the ground up, with probablythe best pitching staff in baseball, with
one of the ten to fifteen bestplayers at center field in Julio Rodriguez,
with a catcher that is a leaderthat can you know, pull up big
offensive moment. You have pieces allaround you to where if you have one

(38:59):
of those big signings doesn't work outlike that, take a Jason Hayward in
the cub situation, then you're stillfine. Like I still think that if
you were able to eat that moneyand be okay with that allah, maybe
a Robinson Canoe situation, although Iargued the Robinson Canoe signing was still really
good. Uh, he was greatfor the Mariners. It was good well

(39:20):
until the PD right right, butthen you still got something in return,
which was a fricking mirror. Yeahit was, but because you frick and
mirror. I think it's because yougave up arguably the best reliever in baseball.
Yeah yeah, but you all,but you didn't get back a Kolar
No, you do got back atkelmk Yeah, who at the time was

(39:42):
was one of the top twenty fiveprospects in the sport. Yeah. Yeah,
So that was a freaking miracle trade, even though it probably in the
long run benefited the Mets more.Yeah. I think so too. But
it's still got to the point whereyou know you could you can there are
ways to get out of that withouthaving to just eat it all. Okay,

(40:04):
but that's what I mean by themiraculous. Yea, because yes,
Robinson Cano's time here was fine.He was a really good player. I
don't think he was ever great here. He's a really good player for a
pretty substantial amount of time. Thenyou found out the reason for that was
the Pedes had a role in that, and then they still somehow managed to

(40:28):
move him. He was called thethat was called the most untradable contract in
the entire sport for a mid marketto a small market club. And you
have to continue to carry that.Do you know how much else that would
have cost? I mean, thisis a cheap organization. We can all
admit that on both sides of theaisle, they are not going to spend

(40:49):
a lot of money and that youknow, I don't like it, and
I know most people hate its guts, But imagine if you couldn't Canoe to
a general manager who just happened tobe his agent. Yeah that's the only
reason you got rid of him.Yeah, imagine if you couldn't have flipped
Cano, how many other moves thatwould have cost you the last few years?

(41:15):
I mean, didn't this contract justcome up twenty twenty two, so
two years ago, twenty twenty two, so you start that rebuilding process in
twenty twenty, twenty nineteen. Yeah, so that's that's three years of moves.
Yeah, that you probably wouldn't havemade. Yeah, because you're carrying
this albatross of a salary. Yeah. So that's why that was a significant

(41:37):
move. That's why that was consideredan impossible move at the time. Yeah.
Yeah, I do give the Mariner'scredit for being able to move that
and still get something in return.But I just I pushed back a little
bit on the thought that free agentscan screw you. I think if you're

(41:58):
in the right situation, as youmentioned with the Cubs, it's but yeah,
I think that the difference is themarket size. Although I still want
to believe that the Mariners are amid market team in POP and they're at
the twelfth highest or the twelfth biggestmarket in the in the league, which
is borderline big market. But wecan make that distinction, you know,

(42:20):
at some other time. But itit doesn't screw you, because you can
take that chance to go and wina World Series, but your team's still
good enough to make up for itaround in the other place. It was
just one one year ago, oryeah, one year ago, that we'll
just finished. We were doing ourspring training coverage down there. And the

(42:40):
mindset of the time at Jerry Depotoat the desk at the down at our
broadcast site, right, and Isaid, anything going to get in your
way financially of adding the piece thatthis team needs at the trading deadline to
push it over the top. Saysnothing. And I gave him an example.

(43:05):
I said, Cleveland Guardians fall apart, Jose Ramirez becomes available. You
in on that, and he said, why wouldn't I be? So their
mindset a year ago at this timewas we'd like to add, We'd still
like to add. I mean,they told us were bad or short.
They didn't want Tommy Listella in theopening day lineup. We're still we're a

(43:30):
guy short. And so their mindsetwas they were going to be so good
that it was going to be obviousthat they were going to add. And
then they get off to the atrociousstart and then they puckered up, and
shame on them, Shame on themfor that. If you don't believe in
what you've built, why should anybodyelse? Why didn't you add at the

(43:51):
trading deadline? When the team reversedthat terrible start. Why weren't you adding
at that point, like you saidyou were going to add? And then
I think they went into this offseasonwith a pretty decent financial plan, right,
and it got taken out from underneaththem. Yeah, they got the
rug pulled out from underneath them.And they're not the only ones, No,
they're not. What did the TexasRangers Chris Young say as soon as

(44:12):
they won the World Series, it'sgonna be a really aggressive off season.
We've got World Series money. Now. Yeah, they didn't do anything.
They haven't done it still haven't doneanything. They added Luke or not Luke
Tyler Mayleeah, the pitcher who's noteven going to pitch for them until the
second half of the season because ofinjury. So they spend like twenty two
million dollars they added to their payroll. Mariners added a lot more. Well,

(44:35):
I guess they didn't because they gotrid of a lot. Because they
got rid of a lot. Butit's not like the Rangers did a whole
heck of a lot, right,Not many people do. Otherwise full circle,
Blake Snell's not still a free agent. Yeah that's true. Yeah,
so I guess, Yeah, there'sjust a couple of different mindsets at at

(44:58):
No, I think you're right,and I want them I want them to
add I'm not saying that you're wrong. No, No, I just do
believe that free agency is the dangerousit is element if you played too,
if you build your if you're asmall market to mid market club and you
build your organization around free agency,you're doing it wrong, right, And

(45:19):
I don't I'm not. I mean, look what the Padres, we just
talked about them, how confused theyare. They don't know what they are
anymore. And it's because they butthey have the foundation of the their strong
farm system that has helped bail themout so that they this It doesn't look
like the you know, the shiphas gone adrift. So they're still in

(45:43):
there. I mean, they werestatistically one of the best teams in Major
League Baseball last year. They didn'twin games. Yeah, they had run
differential that was like better than theMariners. I think it's absurd. Yeah,
that probably win this year. They'reprobably going to be a playoff team
this year. Yeah, yeah,even without Juan Soto. But I don't
think that they've done it. Theydon't want Xander Bogarts right now. They
can't get rid of him. Theymoved him to second base. They can't

(46:06):
get rid of them. They couldn'tget rid of them. If they tried,
they went too far. It canmess you up. But I wouldn't
mind them trying. Yeah, right, you know, let's see if it
messes this up. Yeah, maybeit won't, you know, I because
look, every year, Manny Machado, j t Rawl, Muto, Nolan

(46:29):
Aernato, Trey Turner, Marcus Simmi. These are all guys. Dansby Swanson,
these are all guys I've wanted themto get. So I'm with you,
guys, I'm with you. Likemy hope is that they add to
this team and aren't scared to addto this team. But it just doesn't
seem to be the way they're goingto do it right. And you mentioned
like, if you're a small marketteam and you're building your team around free

(46:50):
agency, then you're doing it wrong. I don't think anyone wants the Mariners
to be the Padres. They wantjust just go get one guy, like
please, like, just no,I'm with give us something right, and
I've pitched for it every year.Yeah, but there's also this too,
Andrews. You're gonna have to admitthis, and so are a lot of
people out there. Are you justgonna keep banging your head on the wall

(47:12):
against this thing because I don't thinkit's gonna happen. No, I've honestly
this whole offseason has had a perspectivechange for me. I've gone into it
probably more optimistic than the past twoyears. Just don't let it cloud your
assessment of the team that has beenbuilt. You can be as angry as
you want about the payroll or thelack of aggression and free agency and we

(47:35):
should have never had a trade JaredKelner, just a dump payroll. Be
as angry as you want about that. All I ask, and this is
all I would ask of anybody inthe Seattle media, is don't let it
cloud your judgment of the team currentlyconstructed, which I don't think is great,
but I think it's eighty nine ninetytwo wins range eighty eight to ninety
two wins. Yet I actually thinkwe're a better team than we were last

(47:57):
year, So I think we havea chance to win the a OOS.
I think it's probably my pick forthe Murriagers to win the AL West this
year and take the step up.But like Softy asked me one time,
I came on the air with himand he goes, he was talking about
the Geno Suarez for the current thirdbase situation, right, And I'm like,
Softie, you really can't compare thosetwo. Compare our third base situation

(48:19):
to last year's second base situation.That's the that's the trade off. Yeah,
Polonko is the substitution for Suarez salarywise, where he hits in the
order. Yeah, yes, ifyou want to compare defense Geno versus Rojas,
yeah, we've we've downgraded there,but offensively, if you want,
you can't make that comparison. Youhave to make it between Polonco and Suarez,

(48:43):
and then we've upgraded. That's adifferent type of offensive player, but
a much better one. So aroundto protect Julio. So he said,
well, why can't we just haveboth? That's exactly what I was going
to say, And and so Iget I get that, but obviously they're
not allowed to do both. Soyou can just keep banging your head against

(49:07):
that wall and being frustrated by it, or you can assess the team for
what it was. It has awhole in third base. What team in
Major League Baseball doesn't, including theDodgers, the Braves. Ah, do
they have a hole? They don'thave a great bullpen. Yeah, it's

(49:27):
not a great amazing right, butthat's really nippy. They're going to win
one hundred and fifteen games. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah,
I think the Dodgers, even theDodgers right now, are like, what
are we going to do a shortstops? Yeah, that's that. No,
I'm with you. I think everyteam kind of has one. The even
the Houston Astros, their outfield situationthe left field is kind of questionable because
I don't know if your noves isgoing to play there. I don't know

(49:49):
if he's gonna be dh Oh theygot right now, they got Myers,
Yeah, playing in one of thecorner. Yeah, he's not any good.
No. Uh. And I'm pickingthe Astros to win the American leagu
They have Verlander's hurt right now.So the big question mark, there's another
one. There's a third pitcher onthe Astros starting pitcher. They're already that.
They don't think they're two was aHunter Brown three fests of their rotation

(50:14):
is not going to be ready forthe start of the season. So I
mean those are question marks for sure. So anyway, I mean philosophically,
it's a great debate. I'm I'mwith you all. I wish they'd spend
more money. I'm I've thrown outa big name free agent. You go
back to all of my crystal Balllists and there's always a big name free

(50:36):
agent that I fool myself into thinkingwe've got a shot at going to get
and they never get him. Butit still can't cloud my judgment of the
team currently on the field. AndI think the team on the field is
going to be one of the six. And that's all I give a damn
about be one of the six.Because the baseball playoffs don't reward the best

(50:57):
team in the sport. They rewardthe hottest team that made the playoff.
That's true. That's it all right. That kind of wraps it up.
But I did just see an updateon Twitter latest twenty twenty four al starting
pitcher rankings. So like the groupof starting pitchers, I want a list
of top five for you. Thisis via Fangrafts. Okay, number five
the New York Yankees. Number fouris that with rodon or not? Is

(51:22):
that with coal or not. Cole, I think it's probably like good luck.
Yeah, those two, Yeah,exactly. Do you have any kite
string around that take some gauze.Number four the Houston Astros. I disagree
with that pick personally, especially whatwe were just talking about. There's some
big question marks. Number three theBlue Jays. Interesting. Yeah, they
were sneaky a pitching team last year. They were people think of Guerrero and

(51:45):
Bashett think they just hit the snotout of the ball. They were a
pitching team that made the playoffs lastyear and their bullpen was the best in
the sport. Yep, it wasnumber two Minnesota Twins. Oh, Pablo,
yeah, a lot man. Numbertwo. Yeah, this is for

(52:05):
Fanegrafts and number one your Seattle Mariners. Yeah. We're just talking about no,
no, they know that's what I'msaying. Yeah, yeah, I
mean, it's good to be back. Thanks for having me back on I'm
excited for going into this year.I really really really hope that they get
off to a good start. That'sgoing to be a huge key factor for
me because like that, I thinkthat changes the perspective around the team so

(52:30):
much, because what happens if theystart twenty nine and thirty nine is everyone's
like, oh, here we goagain, you know, and they even
if they battle back and have ahot July or something those years. No,
it's just it's it's so hard toget everyone back on board. But
if we start, you know,you know, say we're leading the ale
West after May by a couple ofgames, it's like, oh my gook,

(52:52):
this team might be good. Thisis just don't be bad. Yeah,
that's all. You can be average, Yeah, just don't be bad
for the first month and a halfof the season, and I think everything
will take care on that one.I'm going to close this out with Chuck's
choice. That is, I don'tknow about you, but I love this
spring breakout game format. Oh mygosh, is this just golden? So,

(53:15):
I mean, Baseball's draft can neverbe Football's draft, right, It's
just never going to be as popularbecause you the players don't go from draft
pick to major league team. There'stoo much time in between, and therefore
it's too I mean, it's toowildly inconsistent in terms of who even makes

(53:36):
it to the major leagues, andit's just like years down the road,
so you don't really get to recognizethem right away. So for baseball,
the draft picks are really these prospectlists, right these top one under prospect
lists, and the guys that putthese together get better at it every year.
They do it for a living,so they're more consistent, they're better
at it every year. So really, like the top prospect in baseball is

(53:59):
really Jackson and Holiday right now.So that's the number one pick in the
draft. Okay, you see whatI mean. That is the Caleb Williams
in ours in the sport of baseball, almost at our sport and the sport
of baseball, that's the Caleb Williams, the guy that actually gets taken in
the MLB draft this year, whoknows he'll have to join this group next

(54:21):
year and so on and so forth. So Jackson Holiday is like the number
one pick. This is such asmart thing that baseball has done because more
and more people, more and morefans, are getting into the prospects,
just like more and more fans aregetting into the NFL draft every single year,
and so for them to have thewisdom and baseball has actually been making

(54:45):
some really good decisions for the firsttime in a quarter century. Loved the
rule changes last year, by theway, worked out beautiful, awesome,
worked out beautifully. This is anotherphenomenal decision. Taken four days to showcase
not just the top just an allstar game, to showcase every single organization's
best prospects at the exact same time. That's really cool. So the Mariner's

(55:08):
best first basement, regardless of age, regardless of level, their best first
basement in the system, their bestsecond basement in the system, best third
basement, all playing on the fieldfor one game against the Padres best.
So this entire weekend, this fourday stretch is just something. I didn't

(55:29):
even think baseball was creative enough toput together something this cool. They had
the foresight, actually, unrel Iknow right, unrel. I can't believe
they did it. I don't believethey came up with this. But I'm
really excited about that. So that'swhere we'll close out about that as well.
I actually might tune into that game, and I haven't been the as
dialed in with the spring training asmaybe I was past couple of years.

(55:51):
A lot of it was because mytrip and everything, but I think that
that'll get me to really check outwhat some of the prospects are doing.
It's gonna be fun, all right. That'll do it for us. Thank
you, anders Hurst, Chuck Powellwith you. Hope you enjoyed this latest
episode of Stove, and I guesswe really only have one week of off
season remaining, so the finale willbe next week and we'll do a preview

(56:13):
of the entire season. So untilthen, enjoy, love the game,
and we'll talk to you later.It is Chuck and anders on Stove.