#504 - Amanda Knox on Surviving Prison + Her Injustice + When She Knew Police Decided They Were Targeting Her + Being Conned by a Man She Was Intimate With
On this episode of the BobbyCast, Amanda Knox joins Bobby to talk about her experience after being wrongfully accused of murder almost 20 years ago. Amanda talked about having to survive prison, her injustice and when she knew the police decided they were targeting her. Plus, Amanda told Bobby how it felt to be conned by a man she was once intimate with.
Link to her book: FREE: MY SEARCH FOR MEANING by Amanda Knox
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
It was a life changing moment. Just coming home and
discovering that my house had been broken into and my
friend had been murdered. Like that was already a life
changing experience of like the fragility of life and the
preciousness of life and how anything can change in a moment.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to episode five oh four. Amanda Ox on Instagram
at Amanda Ox. I was very surprised that they came
to us and said, would you interview Amanda Ox? Were you? Yeah,
very surprised. I was super excited to do it because
this I wouldn't say, it's not in our alley except
it hasn't been or alley recently, and I really didn't
(00:48):
know how open she'd be about so I didn't know anything. Yeah,
it's just one of those ones you don't know how
it's going to go. When you started talking about everything,
I'm about to break down the whole case, so just
to make sure you understand what we understood. Also, I
do mention this in the interview with her. They sent
us the book, but very late, so I did not
get a chance to read the whole book, but I
did skim through it. But I remember the case and
(01:09):
it's pretty crazy, and so we're gonna get to it now,
and if you liked this episode, let us know we
can do more like this. We just felt like we
couldn't turn it down because one we remembered this case.
We remembered at least I did how I felt one
way about it, But then the more I learned about it,
I was kind of learning the media was telling me
(01:30):
to feel a way about it, and then it really
wasn't the truth about it, which now hopefully, like I'm
able to see things a little different and not judge
as quick. So how old were you? Though you're younger
than I am, So.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
You remember this?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I don't. I remember it slightly, I remember more seeing
about it now. Yeah, I will say I did enjoy
this interview. Oh yeah, I felt a completely different way
by the end of me too, Me too, I enjoyed
the interview. It's thought she was super cool. I'm gonna
give you a quick rundown before we bring on our
next gift because her story is especially being separated from
(02:05):
it now, surreal, twisted, even debated. Still, I mean, I'll
remember it as the rich kid that was a college
students studying abroad in Italy and there was a murder.
But again, it wasn't like now where everything in social
(02:27):
media and there are true crime podcasts, et cetera. So
I did a mid dive to re explain the case
before we bring Amanda Knox on SO. Back in two
thousand and seven, which is almost twenty years ago, Amanda
Knox was a twenty year old college student from Seattle.
She was studying abroad in Italy. She had only been
(02:48):
there for a few weeks. Whenever I mean, something unthinkable happened,
which was her British roommate married at the character was
found brutally murdered in the home that they shared. Almost
immediate lea suspicion turned toward Amanda Knox and her then boyfriend.
So the Italian media, the international press, and I'm gonna
(03:12):
do quotes here, they kept calling her Foxy Noxy. When
I was looking up some information on the story to
kind of reintroduce myself to it because it had been
so long. She was young, she was American. We talked
about this in the interview. In a second she was
smiling in photos and now she was at the middle
(03:35):
of a murder mystery. The problem was the evidence was
super shaky, at best. So Amanda Knox was arrested, spent
nearly four years in an Italian prison. She was convicted
of murder that now most legal experts agree that she
did not commit. They did appeals, retrials, overturned verdicts, another conviction. Finally,
(03:58):
in twenty fifteen, the Italian Supreme Court exonerated her, fully
cleared no guilt. The court even admitted the media circus
and flawed investigation and played a major role into all
of the chaos and into the decisions as the court's made. Meanwhile,
another man whose DNA was actually found all over the
crime scene, was convicted and served time for Meredith Kurtcher's murder.
(04:24):
So imagine this. You're a twenty year old exchange student
in a country where you barely speak the language. Suddenly
you're at the center of a global media firestorm. You're
wrongly accused of murder, You're locked in a prison system,
(04:44):
and even after being clear to which she was been
reconvicted and then cleared again, people still argue about what
really happened today. Amanda is a writer and a podcaster,
and she's an advocate for criminal justice reform. She's also
someone who had to rebuild her whole life, knowing millions
(05:05):
of people still google her name and the word murder
is attached to it. And so we're going to talk
about the case, but also how to move forward and
how to have a life. Her book is called Free,
My Search for Meaning. And here she is now, Amanda Knox. Amanda,
(05:25):
good to talk to you. How are you this morning?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I'm doing great. Yeah, I've had breakfast with the kids
and now here we are.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Do you cook well right now?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I'm in Atlanta, but yes, I cook at home, so
I love to cook, but I am in Atlanta. So
we went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and had some pancakes.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
If you're at home, what's the specialty on a school morning?
What's the specialty? What do you do fast and good?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I'd make a really really good like yogurt with with
poached egg that I then mix with like garlic and paprika.
It's really good. It sounds crazy, but it's actually delicious.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Sounds like my breath will be terrible. It sounds like
I enjoy. My breath will be terrible whenever I was
done with it.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, you might want to brush your teeth afterwards.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I'm super excited to talk to you. I know the
process of writing a book just in general is hard.
I've done it and I'm not good at it, and
I wonder for you because, aside from your literal story
and everything you've been through, having to write about that
brings up a lot of feelings that sometimes that maybe
you had repressed. Like what did you learn about yourself
(06:31):
when writing a book?
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Well, I've always used writing as a means of understanding
what I'm experiencing. So it's a way of taking all
of the stuff that feels really overwhelming that is inside
of you and putting it in front of you and
learning how to articulate what it means. It sort of
puts you in a position of just like making sense
of it. And after having gone on this journey to
(06:56):
connect with my prosecutor and meet with him in person
and really see him for the human being he is,
I came out of that experience thinking, oh my god,
I finally did something in my adult life that really
defines who I am, and it's not just the worst
experience of my life that everyone defines me for. And
(07:17):
so I felt like I have a story to tell
and I had to go backwards in time in order
to set the stage for that encounter, and good God. Like,
I think the biggest thing that I learned was how
sad my life was. Like, you know, as you're living
your life, you're just sort of like trying to be
(07:39):
okay and trying to just be scrappy and survive. And
I just went for a long time just being in
survival mode and feeling really alone and like I really
didn't have a say in who I was and what
my life meant. And that was really sad. But I'm
now in a very very different place, and I'm so
(07:59):
grateful that.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It's interesting you talk about going back to meet the
prosecutor and seeing the human that they were, and if
you'll indulge me for one second, and my second book,
I went and met my real dad for the first
time in like thirty years, and oh wow, it was
when you're saying that, The reason I say this is
because I felt the same way, because that entity was
a villain for what it represented more than it was
(08:23):
trying to understand the human of it. And it was
awkward and awesome and sad and like so many emotions
all at once, but it allowed me to actually understand
other emotions that I don't think I would have had
had I not done that. So what did you take
away from yourself after meeting, because again this is the
person who was like trying to put you away.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Oh yeah, I mean I think it really put me
in contact with a lot of rage that I had suppressed,
especially in the prison environment, because rage is both an
empowering feeling but also a destable feeling. And I think
the thing that I really needed to survive prison was
(09:05):
feeling stable, feeling in control, feeling like I no one
could take advantage of me. Really just like numbing myself
to the emotions of my experience until the only thing
I ever really felt was just a constant state of sadness.
And so when I got out of prison and I
(09:25):
was suddenly sort of inundated with the luxury of rage,
and I really needed to like understand, like to sort
of address the rage that I felt for what happened
to me, and looking back and grieving for this young
girl who had never had anything bad happen to her,
that person you know, didn't return home from her study abroad.
(09:48):
I had to grieve and feel the rage and encountering
him as a human being really like, in a surprising way,
flipped things around so that I realized that I was
not the fragile, broken one of our relationship. It was
really the opposite. Like I really felt like when I
first reached out to him, I was putting my beating
(10:10):
heart in his hands. And by the time I got
like I came back from that trip to Italy after
having met with him, I realized that I was holding
his beating heart in my hands, and he was this,
you know, fragile entity that was also precious in its
fragility and it's imperfection.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, I like, I feel that, I feel the words
that you're saying. And if I ask something that's a
little uh too far, tell me. But whenever, what was
the first you heard of anything that involved what led
to you go into prison? Was it a phone knock
on the door? Was it a phone call where you're like, wait,
(10:48):
what's happening?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
You mean like the discovery, Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
The very the moment your life changed for a while,
like where were you and how did that get communicated
to you? What was happening?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, I came home and discovered the crime scene. So
I was the one who called the police.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
But you're thinking, though, you're calling the police, so you're
not it because you're calling the police.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, no, And of course yeah, I mean,
I think it was a life changing moment just coming
home and discovering that my house had been broken into
and my friend had been murdered. Like even putting aside,
like everything that came after that, like that was already
a life changing experience of like the fragility of life
(11:32):
and the preciousness of life and how anything can change
in a moment like that was already very, very destabilizing
for me. But then, of course I was then put
through fifty three hours of interrogation over five days, and
brought to the brink of my own sanity, where the
police became convinced from the very beginning that I was
(11:54):
a witness to what happened to Meredith. They did not
believe me that I was not home when the crime occurred,
and so they coerced me, through bullying and physical and
psychological abuse, into convincing me that I must have been
traumatized from having witnessed the event and didn't remember the
truth and had to imagine reality in a different way
(12:16):
and therefore implicate a person that I had a relationship with,
which was my boss, Patrick Lumumba. Like the relationship was
he was my boss. The night of the murder, we
had exchanged text messages about coming into work or not,
and they interpreted this as him being involved with me
and therefore taking part in the crime, and I was
covering for him. So I think of all of the
(12:39):
things that I experienced, that was the most destabilizing. That's
when my life was taken away from me.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
And I don't think I did the great job at
asking the question. We did a great job of answering it.
And I guess when did you feel like they started
to turn on you, Like, did you feel at where
it's like, oh, now I'm in the crosshairs?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Well, yeah, I mean during that final interrogation that went overnight,
they started accusing me of lying, of covering for the murderer,
and I spent countless hours trying to just tell them
that that it wasn't true that I was. I had
always told the truth. I had spent the night at
my boyfriend's house, like I knew nothing about the murder,
and they just wouldn't believe me, And then they convinced
(13:22):
me that everything I thought to be true was wrong
by lying to me and by hitting me, and by
yelling at me, and doing this over the course of
many hours, and so once that once that had gone
off the rails. But even then I didn't actually know
that they were accusing me of the crime like they
(13:43):
The way that they framed it to me was that
I was a victim of the crime, that I had
witnessed it, but I had survived this like horrible ordeal.
And it wasn't until I was already in prison and
I was facing a judge that I was informed that
I was under investigation for the murder of my roommates.
So it's really like it came in these horrible stages
(14:03):
of revealing information to me that I just didn't know
as a twenty year old kid, you know, studying abroad
and speaking to everyone in a language that I was
not remotely fluent in.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, how difficult was Again this is dramatic and intense
communication and heavy consequences. But again it's a todd language
that is not your everyday language, and that has to
also play a factor in how you're in how you're
feeling emotionally about it, but also what you can understand right.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yes, yeah, I thought that like one of the reasons
why the police were so frustrated with me or or
all of that was just simply because I did not
speak the Lane. I had only been in Italy for
five weeks, so I had very limited ability with the language,
and I very often did not have an interpreter there
to assist me. So was I thought that one of
(14:52):
the reasons why they might be accusing me of lying
was because maybe they had misinterpreted something that I had said,
or maybe I had said it the wrong way, or
maybe I didn't under stand their question. And so there
were all of these like explanations in my head for
why they were acting towards me, not like the innocent
person who was not involved with this crime that I was.
And I think part of my you know, you know,
(15:14):
naivete but even you know, this happens with adults, this
happens with wrongful convictions. Just being an innocent person positioned
me to think that the police would never accuse me,
Like it just never occurred to me that they would
accuse me of participating in this crime. And so the
only thing that I could that I could try to
maybe understand that they were communicating to me was that
(15:37):
I had trauma induced amnesia from having witnessed something horrible,
Like what did I know? I didn't know. I was
twenty again, I was twenty years old. I had zero
experience with the police or with traumatic events with crime,
and so I was really very vulnerable and in a
state of what they call cognitive opening because of how
destabilizing this, this sudden trumic reality was to a very
(16:03):
young person.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
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Speaker 4 (16:16):
We're back on the Bobby Cast.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Because it was so intense and because it was so unfamiliar,
did you start to believe maybe they were right? Ever?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, I believed it for long enough to sign
statements that they typed up. And then after I was
allowed to sleep and people were no longer yelling at me,
I realized how it was a mistake, and I wrote
a retraction and then I was sent to prison. And
you know, I mean, the thing is I think that
(16:47):
I was already sort of on a train that had
left the station long before I even signed those statements.
The police had already decided from the day one that
what really happened, which was a burglar broke into our
home and raped and murdered my roommate. They said that
that was faked, that someone in the house had staged
(17:09):
a break in, and they looked directly at me and
tapped my cell phone and no one else who lived
in the house and targeted me from the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And the targeting to me. And I'm remembering this as
well because it wasn't so long ago, but it still
feels pretty recent. Did they And I don't know if
you did it or not, but there was like a
smiling thing where they were like, she smiled while we
were talking to her. Right is right? Did they say
they accuse you of that? And that they were like blain, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I mean they accused me of not responding to the
crime the way that someone would expect a person to.
But at the same time, I think again they were
not taking into consideration one my youth, my inexperience, but
also my not understanding of the language, like I didn't
actually see the body of my friend. I came home
(17:59):
and discovered that my house had been broken into, and
I called the police, and then it was only after
the police had arrived that the full scope of the
crime was revealed, and I never actually saw my roommate's body,
and so all I saw was a bunch of people
screaming in Italian and talking over each other, and I
(18:19):
was trying to piece together what was happening, and so
a lot of people look at me and say, oh, wow,
look at this American girl who's not acting like all
the Italian people. And it's like, well, maybe one of
the reasons why I wasn't acting like all the Italian
people is because the Italian people all had more information
than me. They understood what was happening in a way
that I didn't. And so I feel like, you know,
(18:43):
looking back on it, I think a lot of people
are looking for justifications for why I was targeted instead
of just owning up to the fact that they had
a gut instinct it was wrong, and they went with
it anyway at the expense of another innocent person's life.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And sometimes, especially in our legal system, in many legal
western legal systems, they just need a villain, and it
doesn't matter if it's the right one. They just need
one so they can check the box, either politically or
just so to settle everybody else's nerves because there's been
a murder around, right.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah. I think that that drive for closure was really
really big in my case, because the international media descended
upon this case from day one, and you know, it's
even written in the court documents that the Perusia police
were under an immense amount of pressure to deliver a
guilty verdict, like a guilty party immediately, even when they
(19:40):
did not have the results of the like forensic analysis
of the actual evidence in the case, which all pointed
to a local burglar who had a history of breaking
and entering and of being aggressive towards women. It was
just only discovered after they had already arrested me.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Did you feel that because you were pretty and you're
an American that that also made you more of a target.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I think it made the story absolutely arise above what
you know, the other stories of young women being murdered
abroad like that happens unfortunately every day, where a young
woman is murdered by a man. I think that the
idea of a woman hating woman who is you know,
(20:21):
sexually charged really resonated with people, and so ultimately the
case was never really about the truth of what happened
to my friend it was about the scandal around this
archetype of a woman who like hates other women, and
that was that was the idea. That was the myth
that was packaged by the prosecution and distributed by the
(20:44):
media and made a hell of a prophet.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So you are convicted, At what point during the trial
did you feel like, yeah, we're probably gonna lose.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
I didn't believe we were gonna lose. Honestly, all the
way up to my conviction and my family and I
talked about how we were just in this dark tunnel,
but there was a light at the end of the
tunnel the truth would went out. The prosecution's case was
bizarre and based on a lot of false assumptions. For
their case to have made sense, I needed to have
(21:16):
a I needed to be in a secret love triangle
between two men who didn't know each other. I had
no history of communications with the person who actually committed
this crime. So there were a lot of leaps of
fantasy to this case. And I believed, and I still believe,
that the prosecution was only ever able to prove that
I lived in that house. That's why my DNA was
(21:38):
in my bathroom, for instance, And so I really believed
that when all the adults came into the room and
it came down to truth beyond a reasonable doubt, I
would be going home. And it was only once I
was convicted that I realized that the truth didn't matter,
that it was all about the story, and I plunged
(22:00):
into a new reality, a new realization that I talk
about in Free my Search for Meeting, where I was like,
oh my god, this is not the life I should
be living. But this is my life? Now? What how
do I make it work? Living? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Did you how did How long did it take you
to create your new culture? Because if that was you
now had you had to create one because you were
now living in a place, and that's prison, and who
knows how long you're going to be there? How long
until you kind of had the reality of this might
be it, I get to figure out how to live
like this.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, I had already spent two years in prison leading
up to my conviction, and so I was already very
familiar with the community that I was a part of,
which was a lot of women who had were guilty
of the crimes they committed for the most part, but
who also were victims of crime and neglect and abuse,
(22:56):
long before they ever had committed crimes themselves. They were
struggle with, you know, a lack of resources. And I
realized that, compared to so many of these other women
around me, I was actually very lucky. I was educated,
I was healthy, I had all of my teeth. I
knew the world was a sphere, and I learned that
I could become very useful. I became a translator for people.
(23:19):
I was a scribe. I gave you know, back massages
like these are all the little prison hustles that come
with being, like finding your place and finding your purpose
in a very limited environment. But then, of course I
had to rediscover that all over again once I was
released from prison, and I was now branded the girl
(23:39):
accused of murder in a world that just couldn't get
enough of Foxy Noxy content of looking at me and
judging me, and gleefully judging me and looking at me
in the worst possible light.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
The Bobby Cast will be right back. This is the
Bobby Cast.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
In the book, and it came out a few days ago,
so I haven't had time to go to read the
whole thing. I'll be honest parts of it, but what
I do like about it is. It's not a hey,
I'm awesome, it's hey, this is my story. And these
are also some of the mistakes I made. I mean,
and yeah, I think that's a big part of people
just believing people in general, and I think that's what
(24:27):
makes it so effective. But you know, that's also something
you have to come to terms with, Like, I'm going
to also write about some of the mistakes that I
did make. What was one of the hardest things to write.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
About being conned by a man who claimed to have
been a wrongly convicted person who I then became intimate with,
and who then became abusive towards me, and I had
to escape him, and I couldn't call the police for help,
(24:57):
and I had to recognize that I was looking to
him for some kind of understanding and connection that I
couldn't find elsewhere in the world because I felt so
ostracized and I was wrong. I was really wrong, and
I almost lost everything all over again because of how
(25:18):
wrong I was. And you know, to your point of
talking about mistakes, I think that anyone who has been
through a traumatic experience makes mistakes on the other side
of it, because you are grappling with the trauma of
what you just went through and what it means for
you and what your place in the world is. And
(25:38):
you're looking for connection and you're looking for stability, and
maybe you're looking in the wrong places, and so learning
to trust yourself again as a huge part of a
person's journey to heal after a very big, life changing,
you know, traumatic event. And one of the biggest things
that I want people to take away from my book
(26:00):
is just feeling seen themselves because we've all, like, all
of this was happening also when I was in my twenties,
So the years of our life when we are making
the big, you know, big stupid mistakes because we don't
really know how the world works and we don't really
know who we are. And so I was doing all
of that while also being under an intense global scrutiny
(26:22):
and all the while, you know, trying to prove my
innocence in a world that was primed not to believe me.
And my biggest hope is that while my experience is
really extreme, it ultimately speaks to these universal experiences that
we all feel. And so therefore some the takeaways that
I come away with are applicable to anyone who reads
(26:45):
my book.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Final two questions, Uh, The first one going to be
more specific to the acquittal, because basically, there was just
so much wrong at Everything was messed. It was like
dunda dun da d d d d dun dun du
d Like there was just so many things that were
that didn't line up. But it's rare to see somebody
appeal and get acquitted. I mean, that's just rare. But
(27:10):
going into it, did you feel like you had a
legitimate shot?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I didn't know. I knew that the evidence showed that
I was innocent, but my first, you know, conviction showed
me that it didn't really matter what the evidence showed.
It mattered about, you know, what people were projecting onto
the story and what resonated with them, And the story
of a woman hating slut monster was more resonant with people.
(27:37):
I think people really thought that there must be you know,
if there was smoke, there must be fire, and and
I never really was given the benefit of the doubt.
So I was shocked. I was truly shocked when I
was acquitted. And then of course I went through a
whole other journey of having been reconvicted later and then
had to be re equitted afterwards. So my journey was
(27:59):
not just convicted than acquitted. I was bouncing back and
forth and trying, you know, and different courts were primed
with their own biases and their own you know, their
own prerogatives, and it just oftentimes it was again it
was this feeling that like the truth got lost and
the truth didn't matter ultimately.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So in the book and some myth final question free,
my search for meaning, and there are definitely the details
about the trial, but it's so much more than that.
It's about and I think it's the human element that
we all are trying to do, Like what the heck
are we even doing? Why are we doing it? Why
do we have to go through what we even had
to go through? Like I, you know, I've had some
nothing like yours, but experiences in my life where my
(28:41):
mom got pregnant fifteen and she died early, didn't have
a dad.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
But I.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
But again that's not anything or they're not even supposed
to be compared, I guess, is my point, right, Like
we all have our right, we all have our things,
and at this point of my life, I've found like
little gifts from that trauma that i now now can
recognize as gifts from that trauma. And this is my
final question to you, what are the gifts that you
(29:08):
got from this trauma?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
One is an allergy to judgment. I'm really like, I
think that the world right now really primes us to
be really judgmental and divided, and as a result of that,
we feel a really deep sense of unease in the world.
And I am not at all subject to that. I
(29:33):
always find common ground when I can, I always try
to develop meaningful relationships. But I think the biggest thing
that I took away was just how important it is
to be present right here, right now, because at any moment,
everything can be taken away from you. And so what
(29:53):
you have right now is everything, and it is enough.
And if you are distract did from this moment and
what you have, you are not living your life and
you were not free.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
The book free, My search for meaning is out. And
I'll also say this, I hope is okay. It's funny too.
I can say that, right, right, Okay, good, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Okay, yeah, that's appropriate to say, yeah, because I have
fun with it.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Because it doesn't feel like it would be like, Okay,
she's talking about the murder. There's a lot of stuff
that's not, but there's a balance where it was funny too,
And I was like, can I say that I thought
some of them was kind of funny because I think
you had intention.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So happy it is that I really tried to make
it not just a freaking bummer the entire time great.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And I'm glad that question wasn't a freaking bummer because
I worried about it. Amanda, thank you for coming on
and sharing your story. I hope you want sell so
many books, but two that the people that read the
books actually take what you're putting in the book for
what it is, and it's not just your story, but
it's how your story it is parallel with so many
(30:57):
others and the growth they can take from you know
what you're offering in this book. So so thank you
so much, and I hope you have a great day.
And I'm still not sold on the breakfast that you make,
but I'm gonna believe you and I don't know that,
but thank you, Amanda. I have a great rest of
the day.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
You.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Thanks by thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production.
It was a life changing moment. Just coming home and
discovering that my house had been broken into and my
friend had been murdered. Like that was already a life
changing experience of like the fragility of life and the
preciousness of life and how anything can change in a moment.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to episode five oh four. Amanda Ox on Instagram
at Amanda Ox. I was very surprised that they came
to us and said, would you interview Amanda Ox? Were you? Yeah,
very surprised. I was super excited to do it because
this I wouldn't say, it's not in our alley except
it hasn't been or alley recently, and I really didn't
(00:48):
know how open she'd be about so I didn't know anything. Yeah,
it's just one of those ones you don't know how
it's going to go. When you started talking about everything,
I'm about to break down the whole case, so just
to make sure you understand what we understood. Also, I
do mention this in the interview with her. They sent
us the book, but very late, so I did not
get a chance to read the whole book, but I
did skim through it. But I remember the case and
(01:09):
it's pretty crazy, and so we're gonna get to it now,
and if you liked this episode, let us know we
can do more like this. We just felt like we
couldn't turn it down because one we remembered this case.
We remembered at least I did how I felt one
way about it, But then the more I learned about it,
I was kind of learning the media was telling me
(01:30):
to feel a way about it, and then it really
wasn't the truth about it, which now hopefully, like I'm
able to see things a little different and not judge
as quick. So how old were you? Though you're younger
than I am, So.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
You remember this?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I don't. I remember it slightly, I remember more seeing
about it now. Yeah, I will say I did enjoy
this interview. Oh yeah, I felt a completely different way
by the end of me too, Me too, I enjoyed
the interview. It's thought she was super cool. I'm gonna
give you a quick rundown before we bring on our
next gift because her story is especially being separated from
(02:05):
it now, surreal, twisted, even debated. Still, I mean, I'll
remember it as the rich kid that was a college
students studying abroad in Italy and there was a murder.
But again, it wasn't like now where everything in social
(02:27):
media and there are true crime podcasts, et cetera. So
I did a mid dive to re explain the case
before we bring Amanda Knox on SO. Back in two
thousand and seven, which is almost twenty years ago, Amanda
Knox was a twenty year old college student from Seattle.
She was studying abroad in Italy. She had only been
(02:48):
there for a few weeks. Whenever I mean, something unthinkable happened,
which was her British roommate married at the character was
found brutally murdered in the home that they shared. Almost
immediate lea suspicion turned toward Amanda Knox and her then boyfriend.
So the Italian media, the international press, and I'm gonna
(03:12):
do quotes here, they kept calling her Foxy Noxy. When
I was looking up some information on the story to
kind of reintroduce myself to it because it had been
so long. She was young, she was American. We talked
about this in the interview. In a second she was
smiling in photos and now she was at the middle
(03:35):
of a murder mystery. The problem was the evidence was
super shaky, at best. So Amanda Knox was arrested, spent
nearly four years in an Italian prison. She was convicted
of murder that now most legal experts agree that she
did not commit. They did appeals, retrials, overturned verdicts, another conviction. Finally,
(03:58):
in twenty fifteen, the Italian Supreme Court exonerated her, fully
cleared no guilt. The court even admitted the media circus
and flawed investigation and played a major role into all
of the chaos and into the decisions as the court's made. Meanwhile,
another man whose DNA was actually found all over the
crime scene, was convicted and served time for Meredith Kurtcher's murder.
(04:24):
So imagine this. You're a twenty year old exchange student
in a country where you barely speak the language. Suddenly
you're at the center of a global media firestorm. You're
wrongly accused of murder, You're locked in a prison system,
(04:44):
and even after being clear to which she was been
reconvicted and then cleared again, people still argue about what
really happened today. Amanda is a writer and a podcaster,
and she's an advocate for criminal justice reform. She's also
someone who had to rebuild her whole life, knowing millions
(05:05):
of people still google her name and the word murder
is attached to it. And so we're going to talk
about the case, but also how to move forward and
how to have a life. Her book is called Free,
My Search for Meaning. And here she is now, Amanda Knox. Amanda,
(05:25):
good to talk to you. How are you this morning?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I'm doing great. Yeah, I've had breakfast with the kids
and now here we are.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Do you cook well right now?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I'm in Atlanta, but yes, I cook at home, so
I love to cook, but I am in Atlanta. So
we went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and had some pancakes.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
If you're at home, what's the specialty on a school morning?
What's the specialty? What do you do fast and good?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I'd make a really really good like yogurt with with
poached egg that I then mix with like garlic and paprika.
It's really good. It sounds crazy, but it's actually delicious.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Sounds like my breath will be terrible. It sounds like
I enjoy. My breath will be terrible whenever I was
done with it.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, you might want to brush your teeth afterwards.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I'm super excited to talk to you. I know the
process of writing a book just in general is hard.
I've done it and I'm not good at it, and
I wonder for you because, aside from your literal story
and everything you've been through, having to write about that
brings up a lot of feelings that sometimes that maybe
you had repressed. Like what did you learn about yourself
(06:31):
when writing a book?
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Well, I've always used writing as a means of understanding
what I'm experiencing. So it's a way of taking all
of the stuff that feels really overwhelming that is inside
of you and putting it in front of you and
learning how to articulate what it means. It sort of
puts you in a position of just like making sense
of it. And after having gone on this journey to
(06:56):
connect with my prosecutor and meet with him in person
and really see him for the human being he is,
I came out of that experience thinking, oh my god,
I finally did something in my adult life that really
defines who I am, and it's not just the worst
experience of my life that everyone defines me for. And
(07:17):
so I felt like I have a story to tell
and I had to go backwards in time in order
to set the stage for that encounter, and good God. Like,
I think the biggest thing that I learned was how
sad my life was. Like, you know, as you're living
your life, you're just sort of like trying to be
(07:39):
okay and trying to just be scrappy and survive. And
I just went for a long time just being in
survival mode and feeling really alone and like I really
didn't have a say in who I was and what
my life meant. And that was really sad. But I'm
now in a very very different place, and I'm so
(07:59):
grateful that.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It's interesting you talk about going back to meet the
prosecutor and seeing the human that they were, and if
you'll indulge me for one second, and my second book,
I went and met my real dad for the first
time in like thirty years, and oh wow, it was
when you're saying that, The reason I say this is
because I felt the same way, because that entity was
a villain for what it represented more than it was
(08:23):
trying to understand the human of it. And it was
awkward and awesome and sad and like so many emotions
all at once, but it allowed me to actually understand
other emotions that I don't think I would have had
had I not done that. So what did you take
away from yourself after meeting, because again this is the
person who was like trying to put you away.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Oh yeah, I mean I think it really put me
in contact with a lot of rage that I had suppressed,
especially in the prison environment, because rage is both an
empowering feeling but also a destable feeling. And I think
the thing that I really needed to survive prison was
(09:05):
feeling stable, feeling in control, feeling like I no one
could take advantage of me. Really just like numbing myself
to the emotions of my experience until the only thing
I ever really felt was just a constant state of sadness.
And so when I got out of prison and I
(09:25):
was suddenly sort of inundated with the luxury of rage,
and I really needed to like understand, like to sort
of address the rage that I felt for what happened
to me, and looking back and grieving for this young
girl who had never had anything bad happen to her,
that person you know, didn't return home from her study abroad.
(09:48):
I had to grieve and feel the rage and encountering
him as a human being really like, in a surprising way,
flipped things around so that I realized that I was
not the fragile, broken one of our relationship. It was
really the opposite. Like I really felt like when I
first reached out to him, I was putting my beating
(10:10):
heart in his hands. And by the time I got
like I came back from that trip to Italy after
having met with him, I realized that I was holding
his beating heart in my hands, and he was this,
you know, fragile entity that was also precious in its
fragility and it's imperfection.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, I like, I feel that, I feel the words
that you're saying. And if I ask something that's a
little uh too far, tell me. But whenever, what was
the first you heard of anything that involved what led
to you go into prison? Was it a phone knock
on the door? Was it a phone call where you're like, wait,
(10:48):
what's happening?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
You mean like the discovery, Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
The very the moment your life changed for a while,
like where were you and how did that get communicated
to you? What was happening?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well, I came home and discovered the crime scene. So
I was the one who called the police.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
But you're thinking, though, you're calling the police, so you're
not it because you're calling the police.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, no, And of course yeah, I mean,
I think it was a life changing moment just coming
home and discovering that my house had been broken into
and my friend had been murdered. Like even putting aside,
like everything that came after that, like that was already
a life changing experience of like the fragility of life
(11:32):
and the preciousness of life and how anything can change
in a moment like that was already very, very destabilizing
for me. But then, of course I was then put
through fifty three hours of interrogation over five days, and
brought to the brink of my own sanity, where the
police became convinced from the very beginning that I was
(11:54):
a witness to what happened to Meredith. They did not
believe me that I was not home when the crime occurred,
and so they coerced me, through bullying and physical and
psychological abuse, into convincing me that I must have been
traumatized from having witnessed the event and didn't remember the
truth and had to imagine reality in a different way
(12:16):
and therefore implicate a person that I had a relationship with,
which was my boss, Patrick Lumumba. Like the relationship was
he was my boss. The night of the murder, we
had exchanged text messages about coming into work or not,
and they interpreted this as him being involved with me
and therefore taking part in the crime, and I was
covering for him. So I think of all of the
(12:39):
things that I experienced, that was the most destabilizing. That's
when my life was taken away from me.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
And I don't think I did the great job at
asking the question. We did a great job of answering it.
And I guess when did you feel like they started
to turn on you, Like, did you feel at where
it's like, oh, now I'm in the crosshairs?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Well, yeah, I mean during that final interrogation that went overnight,
they started accusing me of lying, of covering for the murderer,
and I spent countless hours trying to just tell them
that that it wasn't true that I was. I had
always told the truth. I had spent the night at
my boyfriend's house, like I knew nothing about the murder,
and they just wouldn't believe me, And then they convinced
(13:22):
me that everything I thought to be true was wrong
by lying to me and by hitting me, and by
yelling at me, and doing this over the course of
many hours, and so once that once that had gone
off the rails. But even then I didn't actually know
that they were accusing me of the crime like they
(13:43):
The way that they framed it to me was that
I was a victim of the crime, that I had
witnessed it, but I had survived this like horrible ordeal.
And it wasn't until I was already in prison and
I was facing a judge that I was informed that
I was under investigation for the murder of my roommates.
So it's really like it came in these horrible stages
(14:03):
of revealing information to me that I just didn't know
as a twenty year old kid, you know, studying abroad
and speaking to everyone in a language that I was
not remotely fluent in.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, how difficult was Again this is dramatic and intense
communication and heavy consequences. But again it's a todd language
that is not your everyday language, and that has to
also play a factor in how you're in how you're
feeling emotionally about it, but also what you can understand right.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yes, yeah, I thought that like one of the reasons
why the police were so frustrated with me or or
all of that was just simply because I did not
speak the Lane. I had only been in Italy for
five weeks, so I had very limited ability with the language,
and I very often did not have an interpreter there
to assist me. So was I thought that one of
(14:52):
the reasons why they might be accusing me of lying
was because maybe they had misinterpreted something that I had said,
or maybe I had said it the wrong way, or
maybe I didn't under stand their question. And so there
were all of these like explanations in my head for
why they were acting towards me, not like the innocent
person who was not involved with this crime that I was.
And I think part of my you know, you know,
(15:14):
naivete but even you know, this happens with adults, this
happens with wrongful convictions. Just being an innocent person positioned
me to think that the police would never accuse me,
Like it just never occurred to me that they would
accuse me of participating in this crime. And so the
only thing that I could that I could try to
maybe understand that they were communicating to me was that
(15:37):
I had trauma induced amnesia from having witnessed something horrible,
Like what did I know? I didn't know. I was
twenty again, I was twenty years old. I had zero
experience with the police or with traumatic events with crime,
and so I was really very vulnerable and in a
state of what they call cognitive opening because of how
destabilizing this, this sudden trumic reality was to a very
(16:03):
young person.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Let's take a quick pause for a message from our
sponsorow and.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
We're back on the Bobby Cast.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Because it was so intense and because it was so unfamiliar,
did you start to believe maybe they were right? Ever?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, I believed it for long enough to sign
statements that they typed up. And then after I was
allowed to sleep and people were no longer yelling at me,
I realized how it was a mistake, and I wrote
a retraction and then I was sent to prison. And
you know, I mean, the thing is I think that
(16:47):
I was already sort of on a train that had
left the station long before I even signed those statements.
The police had already decided from the day one that
what really happened, which was a burglar broke into our
home and raped and murdered my roommate. They said that
that was faked, that someone in the house had staged
(17:09):
a break in, and they looked directly at me and
tapped my cell phone and no one else who lived
in the house and targeted me from the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And the targeting to me. And I'm remembering this as
well because it wasn't so long ago, but it still
feels pretty recent. Did they And I don't know if
you did it or not, but there was like a
smiling thing where they were like, she smiled while we
were talking to her. Right is right? Did they say
they accuse you of that? And that they were like blain, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I mean they accused me of not responding to the
crime the way that someone would expect a person to.
But at the same time, I think again they were
not taking into consideration one my youth, my inexperience, but
also my not understanding of the language, like I didn't
actually see the body of my friend. I came home
(17:59):
and discovered that my house had been broken into, and
I called the police, and then it was only after
the police had arrived that the full scope of the
crime was revealed, and I never actually saw my roommate's body,
and so all I saw was a bunch of people
screaming in Italian and talking over each other, and I
(18:19):
was trying to piece together what was happening, and so
a lot of people look at me and say, oh, wow,
look at this American girl who's not acting like all
the Italian people. And it's like, well, maybe one of
the reasons why I wasn't acting like all the Italian
people is because the Italian people all had more information
than me. They understood what was happening in a way
that I didn't. And so I feel like, you know,
(18:43):
looking back on it, I think a lot of people
are looking for justifications for why I was targeted instead
of just owning up to the fact that they had
a gut instinct it was wrong, and they went with
it anyway at the expense of another innocent person's life.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And sometimes, especially in our legal system, in many legal
western legal systems, they just need a villain, and it
doesn't matter if it's the right one. They just need
one so they can check the box, either politically or
just so to settle everybody else's nerves because there's been
a murder around, right.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah. I think that that drive for closure was really
really big in my case, because the international media descended
upon this case from day one, and you know, it's
even written in the court documents that the Perusia police
were under an immense amount of pressure to deliver a
guilty verdict, like a guilty party immediately, even when they
(19:40):
did not have the results of the like forensic analysis
of the actual evidence in the case, which all pointed
to a local burglar who had a history of breaking
and entering and of being aggressive towards women. It was
just only discovered after they had already arrested me.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Did you feel that because you were pretty and you're
an American that that also made you more of a target.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I think it made the story absolutely arise above what
you know, the other stories of young women being murdered
abroad like that happens unfortunately every day, where a young
woman is murdered by a man. I think that the
idea of a woman hating woman who is you know,
(20:21):
sexually charged really resonated with people, and so ultimately the
case was never really about the truth of what happened
to my friend it was about the scandal around this
archetype of a woman who like hates other women, and
that was that was the idea. That was the myth
that was packaged by the prosecution and distributed by the
(20:44):
media and made a hell of a prophet.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So you are convicted, At what point during the trial
did you feel like, yeah, we're probably gonna lose.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
I didn't believe we were gonna lose. Honestly, all the
way up to my conviction and my family and I
talked about how we were just in this dark tunnel,
but there was a light at the end of the
tunnel the truth would went out. The prosecution's case was
bizarre and based on a lot of false assumptions. For
their case to have made sense, I needed to have
(21:16):
a I needed to be in a secret love triangle
between two men who didn't know each other. I had
no history of communications with the person who actually committed
this crime. So there were a lot of leaps of
fantasy to this case. And I believed, and I still believe,
that the prosecution was only ever able to prove that
I lived in that house. That's why my DNA was
(21:38):
in my bathroom, for instance, And so I really believed
that when all the adults came into the room and
it came down to truth beyond a reasonable doubt, I
would be going home. And it was only once I
was convicted that I realized that the truth didn't matter,
that it was all about the story, and I plunged
(22:00):
into a new reality, a new realization that I talk
about in Free my Search for Meeting, where I was like,
oh my god, this is not the life I should
be living. But this is my life? Now? What how
do I make it work? Living? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Did you how did How long did it take you
to create your new culture? Because if that was you
now had you had to create one because you were
now living in a place, and that's prison, and who
knows how long you're going to be there? How long
until you kind of had the reality of this might
be it, I get to figure out how to live
like this.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, I had already spent two years in prison leading
up to my conviction, and so I was already very
familiar with the community that I was a part of,
which was a lot of women who had were guilty
of the crimes they committed for the most part, but
who also were victims of crime and neglect and abuse,
(22:56):
long before they ever had committed crimes themselves. They were
struggle with, you know, a lack of resources. And I
realized that, compared to so many of these other women
around me, I was actually very lucky. I was educated,
I was healthy, I had all of my teeth. I
knew the world was a sphere, and I learned that
I could become very useful. I became a translator for people.
(23:19):
I was a scribe. I gave you know, back massages
like these are all the little prison hustles that come
with being, like finding your place and finding your purpose
in a very limited environment. But then, of course I
had to rediscover that all over again once I was
released from prison, and I was now branded the girl
(23:39):
accused of murder in a world that just couldn't get
enough of Foxy Noxy content of looking at me and
judging me, and gleefully judging me and looking at me
in the worst possible light.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
The Bobby Cast will be right back. This is the
Bobby Cast.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
In the book, and it came out a few days ago,
so I haven't had time to go to read the
whole thing. I'll be honest parts of it, but what
I do like about it is. It's not a hey,
I'm awesome, it's hey, this is my story. And these
are also some of the mistakes I made. I mean,
and yeah, I think that's a big part of people
just believing people in general, and I think that's what
(24:27):
makes it so effective. But you know, that's also something
you have to come to terms with, Like, I'm going
to also write about some of the mistakes that I
did make. What was one of the hardest things to write.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
About being conned by a man who claimed to have
been a wrongly convicted person who I then became intimate with,
and who then became abusive towards me, and I had
to escape him, and I couldn't call the police for help,
(24:57):
and I had to recognize that I was looking to
him for some kind of understanding and connection that I
couldn't find elsewhere in the world because I felt so
ostracized and I was wrong. I was really wrong, and
I almost lost everything all over again because of how
(25:18):
wrong I was. And you know, to your point of
talking about mistakes, I think that anyone who has been
through a traumatic experience makes mistakes on the other side
of it, because you are grappling with the trauma of
what you just went through and what it means for
you and what your place in the world is. And
(25:38):
you're looking for connection and you're looking for stability, and
maybe you're looking in the wrong places, and so learning
to trust yourself again as a huge part of a
person's journey to heal after a very big, life changing,
you know, traumatic event. And one of the biggest things
that I want people to take away from my book
(26:00):
is just feeling seen themselves because we've all, like, all
of this was happening also when I was in my twenties,
So the years of our life when we are making
the big, you know, big stupid mistakes because we don't
really know how the world works and we don't really
know who we are. And so I was doing all
of that while also being under an intense global scrutiny
(26:22):
and all the while, you know, trying to prove my
innocence in a world that was primed not to believe me.
And my biggest hope is that while my experience is
really extreme, it ultimately speaks to these universal experiences that
we all feel. And so therefore some the takeaways that
I come away with are applicable to anyone who reads
(26:45):
my book.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Final two questions, Uh, The first one going to be
more specific to the acquittal, because basically, there was just
so much wrong at Everything was messed. It was like
dunda dun da d d d d dun dun du
d Like there was just so many things that were
that didn't line up. But it's rare to see somebody
appeal and get acquitted. I mean, that's just rare. But
(27:10):
going into it, did you feel like you had a
legitimate shot?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I didn't know. I knew that the evidence showed that
I was innocent, but my first, you know, conviction showed
me that it didn't really matter what the evidence showed.
It mattered about, you know, what people were projecting onto
the story and what resonated with them, And the story
of a woman hating slut monster was more resonant with people.
(27:37):
I think people really thought that there must be you know,
if there was smoke, there must be fire, and and
I never really was given the benefit of the doubt.
So I was shocked. I was truly shocked when I
was acquitted. And then of course I went through a
whole other journey of having been reconvicted later and then
had to be re equitted afterwards. So my journey was
(27:59):
not just convicted than acquitted. I was bouncing back and
forth and trying, you know, and different courts were primed
with their own biases and their own you know, their
own prerogatives, and it just oftentimes it was again it
was this feeling that like the truth got lost and
the truth didn't matter ultimately.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So in the book and some myth final question free,
my search for meaning, and there are definitely the details
about the trial, but it's so much more than that.
It's about and I think it's the human element that
we all are trying to do, Like what the heck
are we even doing? Why are we doing it? Why
do we have to go through what we even had
to go through? Like I, you know, I've had some
nothing like yours, but experiences in my life where my
(28:41):
mom got pregnant fifteen and she died early, didn't have
a dad.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
But I.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
But again that's not anything or they're not even supposed
to be compared, I guess, is my point, right, Like
we all have our right, we all have our things,
and at this point of my life, I've found like
little gifts from that trauma that i now now can
recognize as gifts from that trauma. And this is my
final question to you, what are the gifts that you
(29:08):
got from this trauma?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
One is an allergy to judgment. I'm really like, I
think that the world right now really primes us to
be really judgmental and divided, and as a result of that,
we feel a really deep sense of unease in the world.
And I am not at all subject to that. I
(29:33):
always find common ground when I can, I always try
to develop meaningful relationships. But I think the biggest thing
that I took away was just how important it is
to be present right here, right now, because at any moment,
everything can be taken away from you. And so what
(29:53):
you have right now is everything, and it is enough.
And if you are distract did from this moment and
what you have, you are not living your life and
you were not free.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
The book free, My search for meaning is out. And
I'll also say this, I hope is okay. It's funny too.
I can say that, right, right, Okay, good, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Okay, yeah, that's appropriate to say, yeah, because I have
fun with it.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Because it doesn't feel like it would be like, Okay,
she's talking about the murder. There's a lot of stuff
that's not, but there's a balance where it was funny too,
And I was like, can I say that I thought
some of them was kind of funny because I think
you had intention.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So happy it is that I really tried to make
it not just a freaking bummer the entire time great.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And I'm glad that question wasn't a freaking bummer because
I worried about it. Amanda, thank you for coming on
and sharing your story. I hope you want sell so
many books, but two that the people that read the
books actually take what you're putting in the book for
what it is, and it's not just your story, but
it's how your story it is parallel with so many
(30:57):
others and the growth they can take from you know
what you're offering in this book. So so thank you
so much, and I hope you have a great day.
And I'm still not sold on the breakfast that you make,
but I'm gonna believe you and I don't know that,
but thank you, Amanda. I have a great rest of
the day.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
You.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Thanks by thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production.
Host
Bobby Bones
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