February 20, 2025 • 22 mins
Maria chats with ecologist, biologist and bat scientist Dr. Alyson Brokaw about her book The Weird and Wonderful World of Bats!
Give a listen and I'll bet you will learn something about bats (and why they're actually pretty cool and not scary at all!) that you never knew!
Dr. Brokaw has a blog about bats too alysonbrokaw.com.
Give a listen and I'll bet you will learn something about bats (and why they're actually pretty cool and not scary at all!) that you never knew!
Dr. Brokaw has a blog about bats too alysonbrokaw.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me today.
She's an ecologist and a science communicator. It is doctor
Allison Brokaw, who has a new book, The Weird and
Wonderful World of Bats. So, doctor Brokaw, thank you so
much for taking some time out to talk about bats.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So Okay, first of all, I feel like bats get
a really they just get a bad rap.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Why. I mean, I know bats are always the scary.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thing in movies, and they are kind of freaky looking,
right because they look like birds but they're mammals. But
why do you think it is that bats people are
like freaked out by them sometimes? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I think it has to do with our general fear
of the unknown. Most people have probably never had the
opportunity to see a living bat up close. Okay, only
ever see them, you know, flying around. We maybe aren't
expecting it, you get that little jump scare right right.
(01:20):
But actually, at least for me, when I look at bats,
I just see cute little furry animals.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, well I figured that.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean, I would think that that's they're probably your
favorite mammal.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yes, they're my favorite animal animal. Okay, all right, No,
that's cool. I love that.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Has it always been like that? Like did you love
them when you were a kid or like when did
that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, a little bit of So I grew up kind
of always loving animals. I knew I wanted to work
with animals as a job. And when I was a kid,
I grew up a girl up in sort of a
country and we would see bats out flying around at night.
And then as I was going through college and starting
to get more into ecology and studying wildlife, I just
(02:11):
started learning more about baths and became really fascinated with
the diversity of bats and just all the different things
that baths do. And I also realized that there was
a lot that we still don't know about that, and
there was a lot of opportunity to sort of learn
new things, which I really loved.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Wow, you know that makes sense? That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Is there something and it's probably not just one thing
that through your studies that you never knew that's like
the most fascinating thing, And it might not even be
one thing.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
It could be like numerous things.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Let's say somebody who who isn't studying them, somebody who's
listening right now and has only seen bats like in movies,
Like something that's really fascinating that you learned.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, So I think what is really fascinating you at
bats to me? And something I think people don't always
realize because we only ever see sort of these murky
representations in media, is they are incredibly diverse. So they're
the second most diverse group of mammals. Current. The current
(03:20):
official counts for bat species as of this morning is
one thousand, four hundred and eighty seven different species of
bats wow on the planet. And within all of that diversity,
it's not just diversity of sort of the way they look,
which there is a ton of that. We have really
big bats, really small bats. We have bats that come
(03:43):
in different colors. There's orange bats and yellow bats and
black and white spotted bats.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
But also they eat a lot of different things. So
while most of them are insectivores and eat insects, a
lot of bats fruits, nectar, there are bats that are carnivores.
There's bats that eat other bats. There's bats.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So it's just I think, just yeah, the overall diversity
and variety among all of the different bats is something
that I love and that I hope to encourage other
people to appreciate.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, no, for sure, I mean that their second what's
the first one that's the most diverse?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Rodents?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Oh wow, See you just taught me something I did
not know that about either. But yeah, you know, like
I know, pigeons come, there are all different types of
pigeons and shapes and sizes and colors, but I didn't
realize that about rodents. But bats, I mean, that's really
pretty fascinating. And I know in your book, you know,
you you talk about different types of bats that do
(04:52):
different things, Like I was fascinated by the Egyptian fruit
bat that makes sounds with its tongue and now not
its larynx, which is like, wait, what is that? And
it's is that something that's just common to that type
of bat? Correct, like the Egyptian fruit bat.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, so actually the Egyptian fruit bats are a little
bit unusual in that sense. So if we kind of
back up a little bit, so we often think about
bats and echolocation using sound to get around, and while
most bats do use echolocation, there is an entire group
of bats, which we would consider the old world flying
(05:33):
foxes and the old world fruit bats. So that any
flying foxes, a lot of the bigger bats that we
think of, they don't echolocate at all. Okay, they can't.
And within that group, the Egyptian fruit bats are an exception,
and they have evolved this different way of echo locating,
which is using the tongue clicks.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So most most bats that echo locate use their larynx.
The Egyptian and fruit bats are the only ones that
we know of that are using these tongue clicks.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
See like that's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, so kind of solving the same problem, which is
trying to get around in a dark cave, but doing
it slightly differently.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Right, Yeah, no, for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I just and I found your book not only
fascinating with all the different facts obviously, but the photos
photos are phenomenal, I mean, wow, really cool photos.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah. I was very lucky to have some colleagues who
are willing to share their phenomenal bath photography with me
for the book.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Oh the great Yeah yeah yeah, and I also for
me of course learning about them. As I was reading
that bats are you said, there are a lot more
like dogs and whales and not birds, which I think
probably everyone in the general population just thinks of about
(06:58):
more like a bird.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean they're so that's the world's only
mammals capable of true flight, and so we yeah, it's
really easy to sort of compare them to birds. I
also we also often hear sort of their flying rats
or flying yes again, right, a very similar comparison. But
(07:22):
if when we've looked at their genetic material and sort
of looked at their evolutionary history, they are they are
more closely related to carnivores like dogs than they are
to other rodents.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Right, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So yeah, so I always like their they're flying flying
dogs theirs.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
And flying whales.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah again, yeah, that's can they be trained like dogs
can or even whales.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
In a way?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So for a lot of the type of research that
I have done and people who have done work on
sort of behavior in bats, there is often some element
of training. So for my research, I was studying how
fruit bats use their sense of smell, and so in
(08:19):
order to do that, I needed to bring them into
temporary captivity and needed to train them to associate a
smell with a food reward. So it's actually very similar,
you know, positive reinforcement by training that you would use
to train a dog. And other researchers have done things
(08:41):
where they've trained these the fringe flipped bats, which are
a species of bat that eat frogs that live in Panama,
and they have a really fascinating social and foraging habits
where they are able to listen for frog sounds and
that's how they find their food. Wow, and the researcher
(09:03):
that's part of their work train. We're training these back
to recognize different sounds, including like a ring tone, just.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
A phone ring tone really well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And then they let the bat go at the end
of the study and then I believe they recaught it.
I think a few years later and the bat still
remembered the ring tone. Wow as a Q.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
That's really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, So again we're teaching people that bats are definitely
smarter than we think. Yep, and yeah, but I think
that's probably true of any animal. I think many times. Well,
I think people who are listening right now that they know,
because they're very loyal and dedicated listeners, that they know
that animals are smart, usually smarter than humans. But for
(09:53):
the general public, I think I just don't think that
sometimes people understand animal and I think your book really
just explains so much. And like I said, with the
beautiful photos and all the explanations of the different types,
let's talk a little bit about how important bats are
to the environment.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, so bats are an incredibly important part of a
healthy environment and ecosystem with so much diversity. They still
a lot of different sort of environmental role. So I
talked about the insect eating bats. They are providing free
pest control services around the world, eating the bugs and
(10:39):
insects that like to eat our things like agricultural crops.
We also have bats that are important pollinators, so they
are helping plants reproduce, including some really important commercial crops
such as particularly in parts of tropical Asia like durian
(11:02):
A gave is a popular one if your listeners are
fans of tequila.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Of course they are.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And then also as speed dispersers, both for agricultural crops,
but also for helping spread important forest plants, yeah, and
helping them them grow in new areas.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So just like they're important to the environment, has the
environment been kind to them?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Have we lost bats.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Due to climate change, global warming. Have they been you know, resilient,
How does that happened? Like, how has that affected them?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
It definitely depends on the region that we're talking abouts.
In general, are having a little bit of a hard time.
I I think it's about almost half of the bats
probably are either in some form of decline or are
(12:02):
listed as endangered or threatened in some levels by the
Red List. The problem or a challenge with that is
that when it comes to conservation is there's a lot
we don't know about their populations. So there's actually a
good chunk of bats that we can't even say if
(12:23):
they are endangered or not because we just don't have
enough data to know what their populations are. Like, they're
hard to study, they can be hard to capture, So
there's definitely a lot of uncertainty. Some species seem to
do okay in uh with areas of a lot of urbanization.
(12:45):
Some bats have very readily adapted to being around humans.
Others have a harder time. Others are more sensitive to
human disturbance or to changes in habitat availability.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So it really depends, really it depends like where they
are basically that's where they are.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, the details of their specific ecology.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I also I have to have to tell you. I
hear a dog barking behind you. Is that your dog?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah? That is my dog.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I love it. Tell me about your dog. Your dog
is a guest here.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
A chocolate lab. His name is Gonzo. We're probably the
Maleman might be coming by right now.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Of course he wants you to know, mom, we got mail.
Come on. That's awesome. I love it. I love it.
It's just so perfect.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So our bats with like with their partners, you know,
like some some animals stay with the same partner their
whole life and they have like family, and you know,
like as a pack. Do bats do they have the
same thing or are they like not like that at all?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Most fats are not like that. The most that the
bats are they get most bathinitely reproduced maybe once or
twice a year, so they they're not producing a lot
of young each year, which is another reason that it's
really important to think about their conservation, because they don't
reach quickly. Most that's sort of fall under a you know,
(14:23):
they just they're finding mates in a big colony or whatnot.
But some of the bats, so I know a few
of the carnivorous species have been documented living in sort
of small family groups where you have the male and
female parents, and then you have the sort of maybe
(14:44):
a juvenile bat, an older offspring, and then maybe a
young pup. And it's thought that because these bats are carnivores, uh,
you know, finding vertebrate prey, so finding your the rodents
or the bat or the lizard that they're eating, sure
is harder finding an insect or a piece of fruit,
(15:06):
and so kind of having that more family dynamic just
sort of helps provision the whole family and benefits everybody.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Right, No, no, that way, but that's a relatively rare right, right,
you know that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
These are all facts that probably that most people don't know,
you know, yeap, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
No, you're you're educating all of us, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So I mean, like there was a fact I saw
in your book, which you know, of course with COVID
and the coronavirus and everything else that and I didn't
realize this. Humans have three hundred and eighty trillion virus
particles on ourselves, but meat, which bats do not have
that amount, So obviously they are safer in a sense.
(15:52):
I was just kind of fascinated by that fact.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, I mean, so the the thing I was trying
to drive home with that we often that's often get
sort of vilified a lot of the disease discussions, and so,
you know, just recognizing that every organism carries viruses and diseases,
and as humans, we are more of a threat to
other humans because the diseases that we carry are going
(16:20):
to you know, can infect another human. Cross Over from
different species tends to be rarer on the whole. And
so while it is true that that you know, can
carry a range of potentially infectious viruses or diseases, most
(16:41):
of those do not crossover to humans. And the main
issue is, you know, how are we interacting with the wildlife? Sure,
so you know, maintaining proper distances, not disturbing that's unnecessarily,
you know, conserving habitat Those are kind of the main
things we should be thinking about in these discussions. Yeah,
(17:04):
wildlife and humans spillover.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Right, No, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I mean, so what could we tell like our listeners, like,
what should a listener do if a bat gets into
their house? What what's the best way they shouldn't I mean,
people to keep it alive rather rather not to call
an exterminator, Like, is there a way that people can
do it to help conserve them and preserve them?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And that's just an example.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, So, uh, what I always recommend to people
if you encounter a bat in your house is to
call your local bat specific rehaber. So there are there
are wildlife rehabilitators who specialize in that rehabilitation and caring
(17:53):
for bats, and so they're the they're the best people
to call because they are in your local area. They
are going to be able to give you immediate specific
advice on your situation, whether it's a bat flying around
your house or you found bats in your attic. Sure,
they're kind of the first a good source of information
(18:16):
that's going to be most relevant to you. And then
if you do need to interact with a that, say
you have one flying around, just making sure to wear gloves,
don't handle wildlife.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah yeah, but you don't know how, sure, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Just and being cautious and then sort of just also
if you're ever in doubt, it's it's particularly with bats,
like all mammals that can carry rabies, which is not
something to mess around with. Sure, So if you do
suspect that a bat was, you know, around somebody who
(18:55):
may have been sleeping or is otherwise unable to you know,
remember a potential encounter, it's always better to err on
the side of caution, sure, in which case trying to
keep the bat for testing or and then calling your
you know, your medical professional task for specific advice.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Basically, the bottom line is people shouldn't be so fearful
of bats because they're really not bad. Right, that's the
bottom line, And that's that's really behind your book, you know,
the weird and wonderful world of bats. It's yes, demystifying
these often misunderstood creatures, like there's nothing to be afraid of.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, they're just you know, out there living their best
lives and we're trying to do the same. Yeah, and
sometimes we just gotta you know, sometimes we have to
share the space and trying to do that in ways
that it's going to you know, be best for everyone.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yes, Like we just all need to get along, even
with bats. It's okay.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
So, was there material that you had that you didn't
include in this book that maybe there'll be a follow up.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
At some point?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh gosh, I know.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Sorry because I know this is still new, so to
ask you that I know, I know, yeah, I mean, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I'm sure there were things I can't necessarily think of
anything specific. I definitely I think I had to dial
back some of the details on things so I didn't overwhelm.
But also I imagine, I mean, even just since I
you know, the book went to print, the number of
(20:37):
official bat species has gone up. So I'm sure if
we give it a few more years, there's gonna be
a lot of new information that we're going to know
about that.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Sure, Which is one of the very exciting things about
the areas of bat research is a lot of new
and exciting things are kind of constantly happening.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, it's like constant change, if that makes sense, I
feel like with yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. So
and for my listeners who want to get a book,
can they get it through your website?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
And I guess wherever books are sold?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, so wherever books are sold. My personal favorite place
to find books is bookshop dot org. So my book
is available there. And what I love about that website
is you can order online, but it will benefit your
favorite local independent bookstore, right that's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So many authors who I speak to tell me about
bookshop dot org.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I love it. It's just so perfect. Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And also, alisonbrocat dot com is your page where listeners
can actually read your blog. I was reading your blogs
very very interesting and informative.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, yep, I'm on there as well. And then I'm
also on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me there
as well. I share lots of fat facts and videos
and all sorts of fun, fun things around.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
That fun and fascinating stuff about bats. I love it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, doctor Allison Brokaw, thank you for your time, thank
you for the weird and wonderful world of bats.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
And when you get well, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
As things change and you start on the next project
down the road, we'll talk again for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Absolutely, thank you, thank you, thank you, and give Gonzo
a big scratch for me in a kiss.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I definitely will.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
All right, great,
It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me today.
She's an ecologist and a science communicator. It is doctor
Allison Brokaw, who has a new book, The Weird and
Wonderful World of Bats. So, doctor Brokaw, thank you so
much for taking some time out to talk about bats.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Absolutely, thank you so much for having me absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
So Okay, first of all, I feel like bats get
a really they just get a bad rap.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Why. I mean, I know bats are always the scary.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thing in movies, and they are kind of freaky looking,
right because they look like birds but they're mammals. But
why do you think it is that bats people are
like freaked out by them sometimes? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I think it has to do with our general fear
of the unknown. Most people have probably never had the
opportunity to see a living bat up close. Okay, only
ever see them, you know, flying around. We maybe aren't
expecting it, you get that little jump scare right right.
(01:20):
But actually, at least for me, when I look at bats,
I just see cute little furry animals.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, well I figured that.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean, I would think that that's they're probably your
favorite mammal.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yes, they're my favorite animal animal. Okay, all right, No,
that's cool. I love that.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Has it always been like that? Like did you love
them when you were a kid or like when did
that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, a little bit of So I grew up kind
of always loving animals. I knew I wanted to work
with animals as a job. And when I was a kid,
I grew up a girl up in sort of a
country and we would see bats out flying around at night.
And then as I was going through college and starting
to get more into ecology and studying wildlife, I just
(02:11):
started learning more about baths and became really fascinated with
the diversity of bats and just all the different things
that baths do. And I also realized that there was
a lot that we still don't know about that, and
there was a lot of opportunity to sort of learn
new things, which I really loved.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Wow, you know that makes sense? That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Is there something and it's probably not just one thing
that through your studies that you never knew that's like
the most fascinating thing, And it might not even be
one thing.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
It could be like numerous things.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Let's say somebody who who isn't studying them, somebody who's
listening right now and has only seen bats like in movies,
Like something that's really fascinating that you learned.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, So I think what is really fascinating you at
bats to me? And something I think people don't always
realize because we only ever see sort of these murky
representations in media, is they are incredibly diverse. So they're
the second most diverse group of mammals. Current. The current
(03:20):
official counts for bat species as of this morning is
one thousand, four hundred and eighty seven different species of
bats wow on the planet. And within all of that diversity,
it's not just diversity of sort of the way they look,
which there is a ton of that. We have really
big bats, really small bats. We have bats that come
(03:43):
in different colors. There's orange bats and yellow bats and
black and white spotted bats.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
But also they eat a lot of different things. So
while most of them are insectivores and eat insects, a
lot of bats fruits, nectar, there are bats that are carnivores.
There's bats that eat other bats. There's bats.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So it's just I think, just yeah, the overall diversity
and variety among all of the different bats is something
that I love and that I hope to encourage other
people to appreciate.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, no, for sure, I mean that their second what's
the first one that's the most diverse?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Rodents?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Oh wow, See you just taught me something I did
not know that about either. But yeah, you know, like
I know, pigeons come, there are all different types of
pigeons and shapes and sizes and colors, but I didn't
realize that about rodents. But bats, I mean, that's really
pretty fascinating. And I know in your book, you know,
you you talk about different types of bats that do
(04:52):
different things, Like I was fascinated by the Egyptian fruit
bat that makes sounds with its tongue and now not
its larynx, which is like, wait, what is that? And
it's is that something that's just common to that type
of bat? Correct, like the Egyptian fruit bat.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, so actually the Egyptian fruit bats are a little
bit unusual in that sense. So if we kind of
back up a little bit, so we often think about
bats and echolocation using sound to get around, and while
most bats do use echolocation, there is an entire group
of bats, which we would consider the old world flying
(05:33):
foxes and the old world fruit bats. So that any
flying foxes, a lot of the bigger bats that we
think of, they don't echolocate at all. Okay, they can't.
And within that group, the Egyptian fruit bats are an exception,
and they have evolved this different way of echo locating,
which is using the tongue clicks.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So most most bats that echo locate use their larynx.
The Egyptian and fruit bats are the only ones that
we know of that are using these tongue clicks.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
See like that's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, so kind of solving the same problem, which is
trying to get around in a dark cave, but doing
it slightly differently.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Right, Yeah, no, for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I just and I found your book not only
fascinating with all the different facts obviously, but the photos
photos are phenomenal, I mean, wow, really cool photos.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah. I was very lucky to have some colleagues who
are willing to share their phenomenal bath photography with me
for the book.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Oh the great Yeah yeah yeah, and I also for
me of course learning about them. As I was reading
that bats are you said, there are a lot more
like dogs and whales and not birds, which I think
probably everyone in the general population just thinks of about
(06:58):
more like a bird.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean they're so that's the world's only
mammals capable of true flight, and so we yeah, it's
really easy to sort of compare them to birds. I
also we also often hear sort of their flying rats
or flying yes again, right, a very similar comparison. But
(07:22):
if when we've looked at their genetic material and sort
of looked at their evolutionary history, they are they are
more closely related to carnivores like dogs than they are
to other rodents.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Right, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So yeah, so I always like their they're flying flying
dogs theirs.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
And flying whales.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah again, yeah, that's can they be trained like dogs
can or even whales.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
In a way?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So for a lot of the type of research that
I have done and people who have done work on
sort of behavior in bats, there is often some element
of training. So for my research, I was studying how
fruit bats use their sense of smell, and so in
(08:19):
order to do that, I needed to bring them into
temporary captivity and needed to train them to associate a
smell with a food reward. So it's actually very similar,
you know, positive reinforcement by training that you would use
to train a dog. And other researchers have done things
(08:41):
where they've trained these the fringe flipped bats, which are
a species of bat that eat frogs that live in Panama,
and they have a really fascinating social and foraging habits
where they are able to listen for frog sounds and
that's how they find their food. Wow, and the researcher
(09:03):
that's part of their work train. We're training these back
to recognize different sounds, including like a ring tone, just.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
A phone ring tone really well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And then they let the bat go at the end
of the study and then I believe they recaught it.
I think a few years later and the bat still
remembered the ring tone. Wow as a Q.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
That's really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, So again we're teaching people that bats are definitely
smarter than we think. Yep, and yeah, but I think
that's probably true of any animal. I think many times. Well,
I think people who are listening right now that they know,
because they're very loyal and dedicated listeners, that they know
that animals are smart, usually smarter than humans. But for
(09:53):
the general public, I think I just don't think that
sometimes people understand animal and I think your book really
just explains so much. And like I said, with the
beautiful photos and all the explanations of the different types,
let's talk a little bit about how important bats are
to the environment.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, so bats are an incredibly important part of a
healthy environment and ecosystem with so much diversity. They still
a lot of different sort of environmental role. So I
talked about the insect eating bats. They are providing free
pest control services around the world, eating the bugs and
(10:39):
insects that like to eat our things like agricultural crops.
We also have bats that are important pollinators, so they
are helping plants reproduce, including some really important commercial crops
such as particularly in parts of tropical Asia like durian
(11:02):
A gave is a popular one if your listeners are
fans of tequila.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Of course they are.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And then also as speed dispersers, both for agricultural crops,
but also for helping spread important forest plants, yeah, and
helping them them grow in new areas.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So just like they're important to the environment, has the
environment been kind to them?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Have we lost bats.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Due to climate change, global warming. Have they been you know, resilient,
How does that happened? Like, how has that affected them?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
It definitely depends on the region that we're talking abouts.
In general, are having a little bit of a hard time.
I I think it's about almost half of the bats
probably are either in some form of decline or are
(12:02):
listed as endangered or threatened in some levels by the
Red List. The problem or a challenge with that is
that when it comes to conservation is there's a lot
we don't know about their populations. So there's actually a
good chunk of bats that we can't even say if
(12:23):
they are endangered or not because we just don't have
enough data to know what their populations are. Like, they're
hard to study, they can be hard to capture, So
there's definitely a lot of uncertainty. Some species seem to
do okay in uh with areas of a lot of urbanization.
(12:45):
Some bats have very readily adapted to being around humans.
Others have a harder time. Others are more sensitive to
human disturbance or to changes in habitat availability.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So it really depends, really it depends like where they
are basically that's where they are.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, the details of their specific ecology.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I also I have to have to tell you. I
hear a dog barking behind you. Is that your dog?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah? That is my dog.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I love it. Tell me about your dog. Your dog
is a guest here.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
A chocolate lab. His name is Gonzo. We're probably the
Maleman might be coming by right now.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Of course he wants you to know, mom, we got mail.
Come on. That's awesome. I love it. I love it.
It's just so perfect.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So our bats with like with their partners, you know,
like some some animals stay with the same partner their
whole life and they have like family, and you know,
like as a pack. Do bats do they have the
same thing or are they like not like that at all?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Most fats are not like that. The most that the
bats are they get most bathinitely reproduced maybe once or
twice a year, so they they're not producing a lot
of young each year, which is another reason that it's
really important to think about their conservation, because they don't
reach quickly. Most that's sort of fall under a you know,
(14:23):
they just they're finding mates in a big colony or whatnot.
But some of the bats, so I know a few
of the carnivorous species have been documented living in sort
of small family groups where you have the male and
female parents, and then you have the sort of maybe
(14:44):
a juvenile bat, an older offspring, and then maybe a
young pup. And it's thought that because these bats are carnivores, uh,
you know, finding vertebrate prey, so finding your the rodents
or the bat or the lizard that they're eating, sure
is harder finding an insect or a piece of fruit,
(15:06):
and so kind of having that more family dynamic just
sort of helps provision the whole family and benefits everybody.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Right, No, no, that way, but that's a relatively rare right, right,
you know that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
These are all facts that probably that most people don't know,
you know, yeap, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
No, you're you're educating all of us, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So I mean, like there was a fact I saw
in your book, which you know, of course with COVID
and the coronavirus and everything else that and I didn't
realize this. Humans have three hundred and eighty trillion virus
particles on ourselves, but meat, which bats do not have
that amount, So obviously they are safer in a sense.
(15:52):
I was just kind of fascinated by that fact.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, I mean, so the the thing I was trying
to drive home with that we often that's often get
sort of vilified a lot of the disease discussions, and so,
you know, just recognizing that every organism carries viruses and diseases,
and as humans, we are more of a threat to
other humans because the diseases that we carry are going
(16:20):
to you know, can infect another human. Cross Over from
different species tends to be rarer on the whole. And
so while it is true that that you know, can
carry a range of potentially infectious viruses or diseases, most
(16:41):
of those do not crossover to humans. And the main
issue is, you know, how are we interacting with the wildlife? Sure,
so you know, maintaining proper distances, not disturbing that's unnecessarily,
you know, conserving habitat Those are kind of the main
things we should be thinking about in these discussions. Yeah,
(17:04):
wildlife and humans spillover.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Right, No, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I mean, so what could we tell like our listeners, like,
what should a listener do if a bat gets into
their house? What what's the best way they shouldn't I mean,
people to keep it alive rather rather not to call
an exterminator, Like, is there a way that people can
do it to help conserve them and preserve them?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And that's just an example.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, So, uh, what I always recommend to people
if you encounter a bat in your house is to
call your local bat specific rehaber. So there are there
are wildlife rehabilitators who specialize in that rehabilitation and caring
(17:53):
for bats, and so they're the they're the best people
to call because they are in your local area. They
are going to be able to give you immediate specific
advice on your situation, whether it's a bat flying around
your house or you found bats in your attic. Sure,
they're kind of the first a good source of information
(18:16):
that's going to be most relevant to you. And then
if you do need to interact with a that, say
you have one flying around, just making sure to wear gloves,
don't handle wildlife.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah yeah, but you don't know how, sure, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Just and being cautious and then sort of just also
if you're ever in doubt, it's it's particularly with bats,
like all mammals that can carry rabies, which is not
something to mess around with. Sure, So if you do
suspect that a bat was, you know, around somebody who
(18:55):
may have been sleeping or is otherwise unable to you know,
remember a potential encounter, it's always better to err on
the side of caution, sure, in which case trying to
keep the bat for testing or and then calling your
you know, your medical professional task for specific advice.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Basically, the bottom line is people shouldn't be so fearful
of bats because they're really not bad. Right, that's the
bottom line, And that's that's really behind your book, you know,
the weird and wonderful world of bats. It's yes, demystifying
these often misunderstood creatures, like there's nothing to be afraid of.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, they're just you know, out there living their best
lives and we're trying to do the same. Yeah, and
sometimes we just gotta you know, sometimes we have to
share the space and trying to do that in ways
that it's going to you know, be best for everyone.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yes, Like we just all need to get along, even
with bats. It's okay.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
So, was there material that you had that you didn't
include in this book that maybe there'll be a follow up.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
At some point?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh gosh, I know.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Sorry because I know this is still new, so to
ask you that I know, I know, yeah, I mean, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I'm sure there were things I can't necessarily think of
anything specific. I definitely I think I had to dial
back some of the details on things so I didn't overwhelm.
But also I imagine, I mean, even just since I
you know, the book went to print, the number of
(20:37):
official bat species has gone up. So I'm sure if
we give it a few more years, there's gonna be
a lot of new information that we're going to know
about that.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Sure, Which is one of the very exciting things about
the areas of bat research is a lot of new
and exciting things are kind of constantly happening.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, it's like constant change, if that makes sense, I
feel like with yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. So
and for my listeners who want to get a book,
can they get it through your website?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
And I guess wherever books are sold?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, so wherever books are sold. My personal favorite place
to find books is bookshop dot org. So my book
is available there. And what I love about that website
is you can order online, but it will benefit your
favorite local independent bookstore, right that's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So many authors who I speak to tell me about
bookshop dot org.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I love it. It's just so perfect. Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And also, alisonbrocat dot com is your page where listeners
can actually read your blog. I was reading your blogs
very very interesting and informative.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, yep, I'm on there as well. And then I'm
also on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me there
as well. I share lots of fat facts and videos
and all sorts of fun, fun things around.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
That fun and fascinating stuff about bats. I love it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, doctor Allison Brokaw, thank you for your time, thank
you for the weird and wonderful world of bats.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
And when you get well, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
As things change and you start on the next project
down the road, we'll talk again for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Absolutely, thank you, thank you, thank you, and give Gonzo
a big scratch for me in a kiss.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I definitely will.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
All right, great,
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