December 18, 2024 • 28 mins
Maria chats with writer and editor Michele C. Hollow about her book Jurassic Girl, the true story of Mary Anning, a 12 year old fossil hunter in the early 1800s (!!) who grew up to be a famous paleontologist.
The book follows Mary's journey as she and her family discover the skeleton of the first ichthyosaurus,
a now extinct fish lizard.
You can find Jurassic Girl wherever books are sold, especially bookshop.org.
The book follows Mary's journey as she and her family discover the skeleton of the first ichthyosaurus,
a now extinct fish lizard.
You can find Jurassic Girl wherever books are sold, especially bookshop.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Maria's Mutts and Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What a great idea.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On iHeartRadio, welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me. Well,
first of all, it's a thrill for me because she's
a returning guest. She's also a friend Michelle C. Hollow
and her book The Adventures of Mary Anning Jurassic Girl.
(00:25):
So Michelle, welcome back. I know it was. I had
to look it up. The last time we spoke on
Marias MutS and Stuff was October of twenty twenty one. Wow,
long time, yep, long time. So for my listeners who
I know, people who listen to Maria's MutS and Stuff
and they pay attention. You're a writer and you're an editor,
and you know you're right about the climate and pats
(00:48):
and social justice and health and Jurassic Girl. I really
enjoyed this book. It's and I know it's it's aimed
at you know, like middle school. Now I won't say children,
but like you know, preteen age? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
It is? But it's for anybody. I just believe that
pick up a book and read it. It could be
I just did a story for Next Avenue on I
gave my mom she has early dementia. Okay, and she
just turned ninety three, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh God, bless her.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Wow that's nice.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah yeah, yep. And she for her birthday I got
her a book that it's a picture book and she
she used to be a reading teacher and she was
a fifth grade teacher. Wow, and kids and adults. You know,
we think picture books kids, No, not just for kids.
She was able to read this, and she read. After
(01:45):
she read it, she told me exactly what happened in
the book. It was fascinating, wonderful. So I did a
story on this, and it's doctors have said that it's
easier to read a book with pictures or newspaper or
something with ads or photographs on the page because it
breaks up the words when you're open up a book. Yeah,
(02:06):
and there's like all these words and no art. It's
hard for some brains to comprehend.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
But wow.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So you know we're really big on just I mean,
I grew up in a house where it was books, books.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's great. And of course you grew
up to be a writer, which is wonderful. So let's
talk about Jurassic Girl. What made you decide to write
this book. I mean, I'll just for the person who
hasn't picked up the book yet. It's basically about a
twelve year old girl, Mary Anning, and she it's based
(02:40):
on a true story. She was a fossil hunter, but
back in the early eighteen hundreds, which I found to
be so fascinating because you know why, she's a girl.
And so let's talk about, like, what made you decide
to write this book.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, I write a lot about people that do incredible things,
and I love talking to people. That's the best part
of my job is the research. I love researching stories
and I love talking to people and finding out, well,
why do you do this? Why are you helping animals
or people like why? And a few readers told me
(03:20):
about Mary Anning. I did not know who she was,
and her story really hit home because I also belong
to the Facebook group group for science writers, and unfortunately,
women in the scientific community don't always get credit for of.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Course, don't get me started on that, but I yes,
I understand, uh huh, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
And yesterday I actually I gave a talk to a
bunch of fourth graders in my community and the kids
were so bright and so wonderful and a lot of
girls were telling me they want to be palaeontologists.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Love it.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Few girls came up to me and they were like
girl power and I'm.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Like, okay, yes, I'll take that exactly, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
And the fact that you know back in the early
eighteen hundreds, well when Mary found this, she was twelve
years old. She found an Atheosaurus, which was she found
it in two parts where she found the head and
then the body. And this is over seventeen feet long.
But if you look at the Jurassic Coast where she
grew up, and this was all underwater. When the asteroid
(04:29):
hit Earth sixty five million years ago, everything was underwater.
The dinosaurs died out, but some did survive, and especially
if they swam and they lived underwater. And the Asiosaurus
is a reptilian. It is reptilian. The whole idea that
she discovered this and the men which were all the
(04:53):
scientific community there, the geology of the London Geology Geological Society,
said no, she didn't get credit for this. Actually, the
man she sold the fossil to was written up in
the scientific journal for discovering this, and she was like, nope,
(05:14):
I am going to pribe that I did this and
how she did that, and she had a great dad.
Her dad loved taking her out to fossil hunt, and
from my research, I really got the feeling her dad
was a cabinet maker, and I don't think he enjoyed
his work as much as if he could. He would
(05:36):
be out on the beach every day, fossil hunting rain
or shine. And he took Mary as soon as she
started walking with him, and Mary's mother was protective. I
believe there were like ten or eleven siblings, but none
of most only one other survived. Back then, you know,
we didn't have vaccines. I don't know we could go into.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
That, but we didn't, right of course, it was the
early eighteen hundreds. It's yeah, exactly because I was actually
when I was reading it, and I as I read
the book, of course and loved it, and I was like, wow,
she came from a huge family. And then I realized, like,
oh no, back then, you know, people had a lot
of kids, but really not that many survived. You know,
you kind of get into the brain of what we
have today, and it's very different.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
M And also back then, being on the seaside, was
it's not like this Calm Beach. Look, I grew up
in New York, and we're not terribly wonderful in the
city compared to like if you go to the Caribbean
or something. Of course, all right, and it just she
had to contend with falling rocks from the cliffs, from
(06:41):
tides that can you know, the waves can just pull
her in and that did happen a few times. And
then think about what she wore back then, women of
course didn't wear pants, right, they had boots, but they
had she had a long dress. And climbing the cliff.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yes, I can't imagine, right, No.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
No, Like everything she did was just amazing to me,
and I really grew to adore her.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I meant, really.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Admire her greatly. And her mom, as I said, was
over overprotective. Her dad would have given her Mary his tools,
like the sharp knives and such to find, like if
she found a fossil, often it was buried, it was
covered in stone and she would have to chip away
at that. He would have given it those tools to
(07:29):
her before she was five, if her mind would have
allowed it. Sure, yeah, yeah, understand that too, Yeah, no,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I mean it's almost I feel like if if she
were in our time when you when we were growing up,
she would be considered a tomboy, remember that that phrase, right,
Because she also had an older brother, So I feel
like between her dad and her older brother, you know,
she was also very brave and she wasn't you know,
(07:58):
and I mean, I hate to say, but she wasn't
like a dainty girl because she was just very interested
in doing stuff just for the sake, you know, I
want to discover this stuff and I want to go digging.
So she definitely was almost like a Rosie the Riveter
before Rosie was ever born.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You know. Well, I like the fact that it didn't
bother her that she had dirt in her fingernails of course,
collected dirt in her boots and such. You know, when
I was a kid, I was very lucky. I grew
up in the Bronx. My mom had enrolled me in
zoology classes at the Bronx Chological Society. Fun yeah, yeah,
yeah no, because when I was very little, I either
(08:34):
wanted to be a writer or a veterinarian. Those two nice. Yeah,
yeah yeah. So I took zoology classes at the zoo
and after each session, the zoologists would come out with
an animal, and we got to handle them, we got
to go. I mean it was just small, yeah, but
I mean I didn't care. How if I came home
(08:55):
and there was dirt under my fingernails, it was fine, exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, and that's what Mary was like.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that. And
I mean it was hard. She didn't have a lot
of friends because girls didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Do that, right, right, she was very different.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, right. And then when she found what she discovered,
no one had ever seen this before. This was at
a time when extinction was just starting to become an idea.
And I mean, just imagine you discover something that no
one's ever seen before. How do you describe it? What
is it? And the whole idea of you know, a
(09:34):
lot of people thought crocodile. It had all these teeth,
but it wasn't a crocodile, and they figured it out
it was an etheosaurus.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
But which is why that's like a fish lizard? Is
that correct?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, fish lizard? Right for those who are like, wait,
what is that? Because I didn't know what it was either.
I mean obviously I learned reading the book, but and
then I looked up that of course, I mean they're
now extinct and they probably have been for a long time, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I mean extinction didn't happen. I mean, well it did,
but in people's minds, and a lot of it came
from religion, Like God wouldn't have created something that died
out right, right, But she believed and she even she
went to Sunday School and her priests used to be
was a fossil hunter. Oh, they believe, they believe that
(10:23):
science and religion could coexist, which is a nice thought.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
It's a nice thought. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
You know it can't exist, yes, yes, so yeah, it's
a fascinating story. I mean, how long did it take
you to do all this research? And how was it
finding this research? Just because it was something that you know,
we didn't learn about her in school and you know
(10:51):
it was so long ago.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
That was an issue for me. When I do a story,
it's about somebody who's done some thing to day or
lifetime that is alive and I can actually call that person,
I can meet with that person. I can find out
how did you do this? I could ask questions and
get responses this. You know, I don't have a time machine.
(11:14):
I couldn't go back and interview Mary. So I actually
found a book. It's called The Fossil Hunter by Shelley Emling.
It's a biography and she did research and I found
out she contacted the lime Regis Museum, which is where
Mary grew up, in the town of lime Regis, and
(11:36):
last year they Lime Regius Museum developed a Mary Anning Wing. Yeah.
So there are researchers there and I sent them a
lot of questions. I was like, can you answer this
and this and this? And they was very patient and
(11:57):
I got all the information I needed. And I also
looked online. There is some stuff, some stories about her,
but it's pretty brief, and a lot of them are
pretty repetitious about this young twelve year old that found something.
But to get to learn about her background, her family,
(12:17):
what Lime Regis was like. And then I got really
lucky because I couldn't and I was trying to picture
what the cliffs and the seaside look like. I'm thinking, again,
New York are okay, the Caribbean, but it's still flat
and such. This is not at all like this. It's huge.
It's really really huge. And a cousin of mine that
I'm close to put me in touch with another cousin
(12:39):
who lives in London, and she went there it's about
a three hour drive, and took pictures and sent me
a picture of the Oh perfect.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yes, there's a picture. In the picture, there's someone there
wearing a bright blue sweater forst just to show the scale.
But he's like a dot.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Yeah, it's so. I mean, the cliffs are high, huh,
the beach is just it's it is really finding that
needle in a haystack and learning about the difference between
a fossil and a real rock, just the whole idea.
And I had to do a lot of research. I
(13:23):
did a lot of you know, when I first put
this together, I thought, I'm just going to focus on
age twelve. And in the back of the book, I
have her other accomplishments.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Which I loved. I loved the like, oh, well, what
happened to her? You know, it's a real story. What
happened Michelle? And you told us well?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
And I opened with the book. I mean, being a journalist,
if I'm interviewing anybody, I want to check and double check,
of course, and make sure everything's right. I couldn't do
that in this so my intro, which is like a page,
I explained that I made up all the dialogue. Beach.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I figured that, yeah, of course, because how would you know.
I mean, it's not like they even had, you know,
a cassette deck back then. Yeah, there will be no
record of that. But you know what, the dialogue was believable,
especially you know, between her and her brother and and
her mom being protective and her dad being like, oh
you know, this is my girl, come, and you know
it was it was believable.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
And her brother was also important.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, very important to that story. Yeah, yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
And if you read any of Dickens and about how
child labor law, well no, no child labor laws, right,
children were treated back in the day. And Joseph, her brother,
was very lucky that he worked. He was upholstery like
an apprentice, right, apprentice, right exactly, thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Sure he.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Was lucky to work there, and not like in a
big city like in London, because in London, kids ten
years old stood at the station, at their stations, making
whatever it was they were making in the factories for
twelve hours a day. That was not unusual. He had
gruel and you know, they had like a few minutes
(15:08):
to eat that and then right and if they made
a mistake, they can get whipped or you know, shard.
And you know, it was pretty awful, all right. It
sounded like Joseph's boss was Cone was.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
A decent man. Yes, absolutely, it did sound like that
he was. He was like, Joseph was lucky to get
that job, but he knew how lucky he was. Yeah,
I agree, that's I mean, that's what I got out
of it as well.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Good. Yeah, and then yeah, no, and his and Mary,
like Joseph of course contributed to the household. And Mary also,
I mean the tourists from London and other cities would
come and she'd sell the fossils that she found. Them
were ammonites, which were small and I had since learned
that they range in size from as small as a
(15:54):
belly button to like a bicycle tire.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Oh really, okay, wow, I would never think that, but okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's telepods that you know, like squid and octopus remains
so embedded into these stones, into the you know, the
right it's and I mean there's just so much and
doing the research and talking about this to kids, and
(16:22):
maybe I said, yesterday, I was at a school, and
I mean, there's a new stegosaurus right now at the museum,
American Museum in Natural.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
History, So I saw that.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, yeah, And I was looking at YouTube and there
was a paleontologist who was interviewed and they were talking
about how a lot of the fossils the dinosaurs that
we see are not complete because you know, when the
asteroid hit and bones were scattered, it wasn't like it
(16:51):
was just buried in one spot. So a lot of
the dinosaurs skeletons that we see are you know, a
percentage of dinosaur bones and then a percentage of copied materials.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Right look like bones.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
So I mean I find that also fascinating.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It is, and it is.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, And just talking to palaeontologists, I mean I'm going
a little off, you know, on tangent here. But this
paleontologist I interviewed for a story about taking your kids
on a on a fossil dig. She was saying when
she was little, like all kids go through this this
(17:31):
dinosaur phase they do yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean
and like they know every name and yeah, and then
they forget Yeah. But she was telling me. You know,
she went through that phase and then you know it's like, Okay,
what am I going to do when I grow up?
And she's studying other things, and there was an event
(17:51):
that she went to with dinosaurs and she said, I'm
going to be a paleontologist. And she said to me,
my worst experience, my worst day on the job was
I'm out in Montana in this big field and there
starts to hail. It's cold, right, she covers herself with
a tarp and she finds these enormous dinosaur bones and
(18:15):
she's like, oh, this is her words. Oh dang, how
in the world am I going to carry this? Right?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
That's her worst day worst right?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, she marked the area and they came back with help.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And tools, and now it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Frans supported, Yeah, it is. It is.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
It's really fascinating, you know, and probably I mean obviously
to them, they just like Mary in the book, they
look at something and they know, well, it's a fossil,
that's a dinosaur bone, which to us, you know what,
we don't know what that is, just could be a rock,
you know, So it's really uh, you know, we appreciate them,
and it's just I just found the book so fascinating,
(18:56):
and it was an easy read and an easy meaning
that you like the characters and you want to see
what happens. Was Elizabeth or a true a real person
of Mary's friend? She was oh interesting because that was
kind of cool too that she had another like another
girl who was a little bit older, but another girl
(19:17):
who was also interested.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
And I think that's why they connected. It's like all
these other girls are like, well, who are you going
to marry?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And we're right?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
They were right and right. So here was this person
she meets on the beach who's fossil hunting and like,
what are you doing here? Because some days Mary had
the beach to herself. I mean occasionally there were people
fishing for dinner, you know, but they weren't fossil hunting.
And here's this other woman fossil hunting, and so they
(19:48):
became friends. Elizabeth had come from a wealth, wealthy family.
Her parents had passed, but her brother, he was a lawyer,
and he knew a lot of people in the London
geelo society, so she knew a lot of people there too,
and she and her two sisters were living They were
living on the top of the Hill of the Cliffs
(20:08):
in a very nice area and they had library and
she she was pretty, as I said, well to do yeah,
but she and Mary had the fossils.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Right in common. Yeah, and they were like really close friends.
And so I don't know why it's going to sound crazy,
but I'm so happy to know that Elizabeth is real
because there was something also, you know, it shows you again,
It's like that was a slice of true friends. Don't
care if one is rich one is poor, you know
what the other person looks like, or does you know?
(20:40):
Friendship is friendship? And I don't. I don't even know
if you realize that you showed a slice of what
true friendship is because it's based on nothing just having
stuff in common.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Mm hmmmm. And there was an age difference, there was
a class difference.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Elizabeth, like you said, came from a well to do family,
but you know, Mary took her over to her house
for dinner and didn't care, and Elizabeth didn't care. So
there was also that whole thing too, which I was like, yay,
we need a book like this right now, you know.
So yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really did well.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Thank you, thank you. I'm so thrilled. I'm really real.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, no, it was great. So well, the question I
always have and I know that you know, this is
a recent project and it took a lot for you
to do this book, especially, like you said, it's not
like you could call a relative or someone to speak
for Mary. Besides, I know you you're always writing articles
and interviewing people. Do you have another book that you
(21:40):
might be thinking about or that you were toying with?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You do?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Okay? Can you talk? Can you hint about it?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
I can't. Yeah, I can. Actually, before I studied, you know,
and immersed myself and Mary Annie there, I wanted to
do a story about Study and I'm guessing you know
Study is dog.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yes, yes, he.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Was the First World War One service, Yes, and yeah.
And before I did all this Mary Anning research, Mary
Anning was easier in the sense that I had people
to talk to as far as well. It was mainly
emails through the the Lime Regis researchers in England. But
(22:26):
I started putting something together and Study and I want
to go back and and rework that good. I didn't
know how to write a based on a true story
without make, you know, with making up stuff I don't
want to make up. You know, everything Stubby did was
(22:48):
pretty amazing. You know, he came from Connecticut, found on
an army base, and I believe that the the military,
the person in the army, Robert Conroy, when he found Stubby,
I mean it was he was instrumental in training this dog.
(23:09):
He found him as the puppy. And I've done stories
for different websites about service people and their dogs, and
every person in the military has said to me, oh,
it's not me, it's the dog, and it's like, no,
I truly truly believe it's them too. They are, of
course none of it. Yes, And I think you do
(23:30):
know that I love animals, of.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Course you do.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That's what I think. How we became friends in the
first place. Annection as always, Yes, So I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah, yeah. So I've got to go to the it's
like the American History museums in the Smithsonian and DC
and I got to read through Robert Conroy's Roy's scrap
book and there's a lot of news articles and such
and he uh like the articles. You know, newspaper articles
(24:05):
unfortunately aren't always one hundred percent correct, right, kind of
the same type of article for different publications. They had
Stubby as a male dog, which he was, and one
had Stubby as a female dog, which is not true.
So it was like looking through this looking through his
notes and letters and learning about World War One because
(24:26):
I really, honestly did not know much about it. And
this dog was awarded medals from three US presidents.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Right, I do remember that.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, yeah, he saved the whole troop from a guess
attack because their sense of.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Smell is sure, it's so amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, Well, so that's your next project, which, of course
we'll have to talk about when that is done.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, thank you, of course, you know it's still new and.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Okay, well thanks for sharing it. Yeah, well, but in
the meantime, The Adventures of Mary Anning Jurassic Girl by
michelse Hollow. Michelle, where can my listeners get your book?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Any bookstore? Go to your bookstore if they don't have it.
I was actually thrilled. I went to the bookstore in
the next town and they had it. Oh nice, Yeah
it was. It was a big thrill.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
No, that is a thrill. Did you take a picture
of that book? Oh you did, good girl?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
If like it's fair, it is, yes, yes, and I
tell people if you do not have a local bookstore
that you can go to or Barnes and Noble bookshop
dot org. I'm not getting any money from them for this,
but bookshop dot org is an online service where a
percent of the sale and it's still the cover price
(25:47):
of the books. It's not like they're charging you more.
A percent goes to the local bookstores where the book
is right.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yes, you know, I will talk to other authors and
they've told me to bookshop dot org. I've heard that before,
so yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
So that's great.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, you could get it out of Amazon, and everyone says, well,
I should talk about it on Amazon. Talk of Amazon,
because you know it's good to get a good Amazon review.
But I do like bookshop dot org and I like
supporting the.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Local life of course. Yes, no, that's then it's.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, and you could ask your local library. I know
it's in my local library, so that is good, and
so it's pretty much anywhere.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well that's good though, Well, that's good. And I'm sure
whoever is listening to this right now will want to
read it because you know, it's it's fascinating just because yes,
it's girl power, but she's twelve years old. It's a
true story. It's way before any of our time, early
eighteen hundreds. So it's just it's interesting in so many
(26:49):
different ways. So thank you for sharing it with us,
thank you for talking about it, and thank you for
writing it, because you know, we girl power. It's true.
I mean, we need you know, no offense. Guys, you
know we love you, but you know it's I'm a
mom to two boys exactly, so yes.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I love boys. But it was interesting seeing the girls
because I'm new to doing this whole speaking to her
about the book, to hear the girls talk about, you know,
like how did you find her? And this is so
good for us. And then today and that Science check
online people were women were complaining about the lack of
(27:29):
women in scientific journals and they do get in occasionally,
but it is harder and they don't always get credit.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And correct and this is a perfect example. And yeah, yeah,
your book was exactly that she didn't get credit.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
So so thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, so you know, thank you for writing this and
thank you for talking about it. Jurassic Girl The Adventures
of Mary Anning from Michelle se Hollow and Michelle, we
will talk when your next book is done and we'll
talk again.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
So thank you, okay, and I will listen to you,
which I always do.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You're the best. M sure. Never been a rader operator.
And this bot see a Raider varmigator
It's Maria's Mutts and Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What a great idea.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On iHeartRadio, welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me. Well,
first of all, it's a thrill for me because she's
a returning guest. She's also a friend Michelle C. Hollow
and her book The Adventures of Mary Anning Jurassic Girl.
(00:25):
So Michelle, welcome back. I know it was. I had
to look it up. The last time we spoke on
Marias MutS and Stuff was October of twenty twenty one. Wow,
long time, yep, long time. So for my listeners who
I know, people who listen to Maria's MutS and Stuff
and they pay attention. You're a writer and you're an editor,
and you know you're right about the climate and pats
(00:48):
and social justice and health and Jurassic Girl. I really
enjoyed this book. It's and I know it's it's aimed
at you know, like middle school. Now I won't say children,
but like you know, preteen age? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
It is? But it's for anybody. I just believe that
pick up a book and read it. It could be
I just did a story for Next Avenue on I
gave my mom she has early dementia. Okay, and she
just turned ninety three, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh God, bless her.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Wow that's nice.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah yeah, yep. And she for her birthday I got
her a book that it's a picture book and she
she used to be a reading teacher and she was
a fifth grade teacher. Wow, and kids and adults. You know,
we think picture books kids, No, not just for kids.
She was able to read this, and she read. After
(01:45):
she read it, she told me exactly what happened in
the book. It was fascinating, wonderful. So I did a
story on this, and it's doctors have said that it's
easier to read a book with pictures or newspaper or
something with ads or photographs on the page because it
breaks up the words when you're open up a book. Yeah,
(02:06):
and there's like all these words and no art. It's
hard for some brains to comprehend.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
But wow.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So you know we're really big on just I mean,
I grew up in a house where it was books, books.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's great. And of course you grew
up to be a writer, which is wonderful. So let's
talk about Jurassic Girl. What made you decide to write
this book. I mean, I'll just for the person who
hasn't picked up the book yet. It's basically about a
twelve year old girl, Mary Anning, and she it's based
(02:40):
on a true story. She was a fossil hunter, but
back in the early eighteen hundreds, which I found to
be so fascinating because you know why, she's a girl.
And so let's talk about, like, what made you decide
to write this book.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, I write a lot about people that do incredible things,
and I love talking to people. That's the best part
of my job is the research. I love researching stories
and I love talking to people and finding out, well,
why do you do this? Why are you helping animals
or people like why? And a few readers told me
(03:20):
about Mary Anning. I did not know who she was,
and her story really hit home because I also belong
to the Facebook group group for science writers, and unfortunately,
women in the scientific community don't always get credit for of.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Course, don't get me started on that, but I yes,
I understand, uh huh, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
And yesterday I actually I gave a talk to a
bunch of fourth graders in my community and the kids
were so bright and so wonderful and a lot of
girls were telling me they want to be palaeontologists.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Love it.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Few girls came up to me and they were like
girl power and I'm.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Like, okay, yes, I'll take that exactly, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
And the fact that you know back in the early
eighteen hundreds, well when Mary found this, she was twelve
years old. She found an Atheosaurus, which was she found
it in two parts where she found the head and
then the body. And this is over seventeen feet long.
But if you look at the Jurassic Coast where she
grew up, and this was all underwater. When the asteroid
(04:29):
hit Earth sixty five million years ago, everything was underwater.
The dinosaurs died out, but some did survive, and especially
if they swam and they lived underwater. And the Asiosaurus
is a reptilian. It is reptilian. The whole idea that
she discovered this and the men which were all the
(04:53):
scientific community there, the geology of the London Geology Geological Society,
said no, she didn't get credit for this. Actually, the
man she sold the fossil to was written up in
the scientific journal for discovering this, and she was like, nope,
(05:14):
I am going to pribe that I did this and
how she did that, and she had a great dad.
Her dad loved taking her out to fossil hunt, and
from my research, I really got the feeling her dad
was a cabinet maker, and I don't think he enjoyed
his work as much as if he could. He would
(05:36):
be out on the beach every day, fossil hunting rain
or shine. And he took Mary as soon as she
started walking with him, and Mary's mother was protective. I
believe there were like ten or eleven siblings, but none
of most only one other survived. Back then, you know,
we didn't have vaccines. I don't know we could go into.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
That, but we didn't, right of course, it was the
early eighteen hundreds. It's yeah, exactly because I was actually
when I was reading it, and I as I read
the book, of course and loved it, and I was like, wow,
she came from a huge family. And then I realized, like,
oh no, back then, you know, people had a lot
of kids, but really not that many survived. You know,
you kind of get into the brain of what we
have today, and it's very different.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
M And also back then, being on the seaside, was
it's not like this Calm Beach. Look, I grew up
in New York, and we're not terribly wonderful in the
city compared to like if you go to the Caribbean
or something. Of course, all right, and it just she
had to contend with falling rocks from the cliffs, from
(06:41):
tides that can you know, the waves can just pull
her in and that did happen a few times. And
then think about what she wore back then, women of
course didn't wear pants, right, they had boots, but they
had she had a long dress. And climbing the cliff.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yes, I can't imagine, right, No.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
No, Like everything she did was just amazing to me,
and I really grew to adore her.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I meant, really.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Admire her greatly. And her mom, as I said, was
over overprotective. Her dad would have given her Mary his tools,
like the sharp knives and such to find, like if
she found a fossil, often it was buried, it was
covered in stone and she would have to chip away
at that. He would have given it those tools to
(07:29):
her before she was five, if her mind would have
allowed it. Sure, yeah, yeah, understand that too, Yeah, no,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I mean it's almost I feel like if if she
were in our time when you when we were growing up,
she would be considered a tomboy, remember that that phrase, right,
Because she also had an older brother, So I feel
like between her dad and her older brother, you know,
she was also very brave and she wasn't you know,
(07:58):
and I mean, I hate to say, but she wasn't
like a dainty girl because she was just very interested
in doing stuff just for the sake, you know, I
want to discover this stuff and I want to go digging.
So she definitely was almost like a Rosie the Riveter
before Rosie was ever born.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You know. Well, I like the fact that it didn't
bother her that she had dirt in her fingernails of course,
collected dirt in her boots and such. You know, when
I was a kid, I was very lucky. I grew
up in the Bronx. My mom had enrolled me in
zoology classes at the Bronx Chological Society. Fun yeah, yeah,
yeah no, because when I was very little, I either
(08:34):
wanted to be a writer or a veterinarian. Those two nice. Yeah,
yeah yeah. So I took zoology classes at the zoo
and after each session, the zoologists would come out with
an animal, and we got to handle them, we got
to go. I mean it was just small, yeah, but
I mean I didn't care. How if I came home
(08:55):
and there was dirt under my fingernails, it was fine, exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, and that's what Mary was like.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that. And
I mean it was hard. She didn't have a lot
of friends because girls didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Do that, right, right, she was very different.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, right. And then when she found what she discovered,
no one had ever seen this before. This was at
a time when extinction was just starting to become an idea.
And I mean, just imagine you discover something that no
one's ever seen before. How do you describe it? What
is it? And the whole idea of you know, a
(09:34):
lot of people thought crocodile. It had all these teeth,
but it wasn't a crocodile, and they figured it out
it was an etheosaurus.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
But which is why that's like a fish lizard? Is
that correct?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, fish lizard? Right for those who are like, wait,
what is that? Because I didn't know what it was either.
I mean obviously I learned reading the book, but and
then I looked up that of course, I mean they're
now extinct and they probably have been for a long time, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I mean extinction didn't happen. I mean, well it did,
but in people's minds, and a lot of it came
from religion, Like God wouldn't have created something that died
out right, right, But she believed and she even she
went to Sunday School and her priests used to be
was a fossil hunter. Oh, they believe, they believe that
(10:23):
science and religion could coexist, which is a nice thought.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
It's a nice thought. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
You know it can't exist, yes, yes, so yeah, it's
a fascinating story. I mean, how long did it take
you to do all this research? And how was it
finding this research? Just because it was something that you know,
we didn't learn about her in school and you know
(10:51):
it was so long ago.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
That was an issue for me. When I do a story,
it's about somebody who's done some thing to day or
lifetime that is alive and I can actually call that person,
I can meet with that person. I can find out
how did you do this? I could ask questions and
get responses this. You know, I don't have a time machine.
(11:14):
I couldn't go back and interview Mary. So I actually
found a book. It's called The Fossil Hunter by Shelley Emling.
It's a biography and she did research and I found
out she contacted the lime Regis Museum, which is where
Mary grew up, in the town of lime Regis, and
(11:36):
last year they Lime Regius Museum developed a Mary Anning Wing. Yeah.
So there are researchers there and I sent them a
lot of questions. I was like, can you answer this
and this and this? And they was very patient and
(11:57):
I got all the information I needed. And I also
looked online. There is some stuff, some stories about her,
but it's pretty brief, and a lot of them are
pretty repetitious about this young twelve year old that found something.
But to get to learn about her background, her family,
(12:17):
what Lime Regis was like. And then I got really
lucky because I couldn't and I was trying to picture
what the cliffs and the seaside look like. I'm thinking, again,
New York are okay, the Caribbean, but it's still flat
and such. This is not at all like this. It's huge.
It's really really huge. And a cousin of mine that
I'm close to put me in touch with another cousin
(12:39):
who lives in London, and she went there it's about
a three hour drive, and took pictures and sent me
a picture of the Oh perfect.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yes, there's a picture. In the picture, there's someone there
wearing a bright blue sweater forst just to show the scale.
But he's like a dot.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Yeah, it's so. I mean, the cliffs are high, huh,
the beach is just it's it is really finding that
needle in a haystack and learning about the difference between
a fossil and a real rock, just the whole idea.
And I had to do a lot of research. I
(13:23):
did a lot of you know, when I first put
this together, I thought, I'm just going to focus on
age twelve. And in the back of the book, I
have her other accomplishments.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Which I loved. I loved the like, oh, well, what
happened to her? You know, it's a real story. What
happened Michelle? And you told us well?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
And I opened with the book. I mean, being a journalist,
if I'm interviewing anybody, I want to check and double check,
of course, and make sure everything's right. I couldn't do
that in this so my intro, which is like a page,
I explained that I made up all the dialogue. Beach.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I figured that, yeah, of course, because how would you know.
I mean, it's not like they even had, you know,
a cassette deck back then. Yeah, there will be no
record of that. But you know what, the dialogue was believable,
especially you know, between her and her brother and and
her mom being protective and her dad being like, oh
you know, this is my girl, come, and you know
it was it was believable.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
And her brother was also important.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, very important to that story. Yeah, yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
And if you read any of Dickens and about how
child labor law, well no, no child labor laws, right,
children were treated back in the day. And Joseph, her brother,
was very lucky that he worked. He was upholstery like
an apprentice, right, apprentice, right exactly, thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Sure he.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Was lucky to work there, and not like in a
big city like in London, because in London, kids ten
years old stood at the station, at their stations, making
whatever it was they were making in the factories for
twelve hours a day. That was not unusual. He had
gruel and you know, they had like a few minutes
(15:08):
to eat that and then right and if they made
a mistake, they can get whipped or you know, shard.
And you know, it was pretty awful, all right. It
sounded like Joseph's boss was Cone was.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
A decent man. Yes, absolutely, it did sound like that
he was. He was like, Joseph was lucky to get
that job, but he knew how lucky he was. Yeah,
I agree, that's I mean, that's what I got out
of it as well.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Good. Yeah, and then yeah, no, and his and Mary,
like Joseph of course contributed to the household. And Mary also,
I mean the tourists from London and other cities would
come and she'd sell the fossils that she found. Them
were ammonites, which were small and I had since learned
that they range in size from as small as a
(15:54):
belly button to like a bicycle tire.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Oh really, okay, wow, I would never think that, but okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's telepods that you know, like squid and octopus remains
so embedded into these stones, into the you know, the
right it's and I mean there's just so much and
doing the research and talking about this to kids, and
(16:22):
maybe I said, yesterday, I was at a school, and
I mean, there's a new stegosaurus right now at the museum,
American Museum in Natural.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
History, So I saw that.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, yeah, And I was looking at YouTube and there
was a paleontologist who was interviewed and they were talking
about how a lot of the fossils the dinosaurs that
we see are not complete because you know, when the
asteroid hit and bones were scattered, it wasn't like it
(16:51):
was just buried in one spot. So a lot of
the dinosaurs skeletons that we see are you know, a
percentage of dinosaur bones and then a percentage of copied materials.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Right look like bones.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
So I mean I find that also fascinating.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It is, and it is.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, And just talking to palaeontologists, I mean I'm going
a little off, you know, on tangent here. But this
paleontologist I interviewed for a story about taking your kids
on a on a fossil dig. She was saying when
she was little, like all kids go through this this
(17:31):
dinosaur phase they do yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean
and like they know every name and yeah, and then
they forget Yeah. But she was telling me. You know,
she went through that phase and then you know it's like, Okay,
what am I going to do when I grow up?
And she's studying other things, and there was an event
(17:51):
that she went to with dinosaurs and she said, I'm
going to be a paleontologist. And she said to me,
my worst experience, my worst day on the job was
I'm out in Montana in this big field and there
starts to hail. It's cold, right, she covers herself with
a tarp and she finds these enormous dinosaur bones and
(18:15):
she's like, oh, this is her words. Oh dang, how
in the world am I going to carry this? Right?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
That's her worst day worst right?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, she marked the area and they came back with help.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And tools, and now it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Frans supported, Yeah, it is. It is.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
It's really fascinating, you know, and probably I mean obviously
to them, they just like Mary in the book, they
look at something and they know, well, it's a fossil,
that's a dinosaur bone, which to us, you know what,
we don't know what that is, just could be a rock,
you know, So it's really uh, you know, we appreciate them,
and it's just I just found the book so fascinating,
(18:56):
and it was an easy read and an easy meaning
that you like the characters and you want to see
what happens. Was Elizabeth or a true a real person
of Mary's friend? She was oh interesting because that was
kind of cool too that she had another like another
girl who was a little bit older, but another girl
(19:17):
who was also interested.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
And I think that's why they connected. It's like all
these other girls are like, well, who are you going
to marry?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And we're right?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
They were right and right. So here was this person
she meets on the beach who's fossil hunting and like,
what are you doing here? Because some days Mary had
the beach to herself. I mean occasionally there were people
fishing for dinner, you know, but they weren't fossil hunting.
And here's this other woman fossil hunting, and so they
(19:48):
became friends. Elizabeth had come from a wealth, wealthy family.
Her parents had passed, but her brother, he was a lawyer,
and he knew a lot of people in the London
geelo society, so she knew a lot of people there too,
and she and her two sisters were living They were
living on the top of the Hill of the Cliffs
(20:08):
in a very nice area and they had library and
she she was pretty, as I said, well to do yeah,
but she and Mary had the fossils.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Right in common. Yeah, and they were like really close friends.
And so I don't know why it's going to sound crazy,
but I'm so happy to know that Elizabeth is real
because there was something also, you know, it shows you again,
It's like that was a slice of true friends. Don't
care if one is rich one is poor, you know
what the other person looks like, or does you know?
(20:40):
Friendship is friendship? And I don't. I don't even know
if you realize that you showed a slice of what
true friendship is because it's based on nothing just having
stuff in common.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Mm hmmmm. And there was an age difference, there was
a class difference.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Elizabeth, like you said, came from a well to do family,
but you know, Mary took her over to her house
for dinner and didn't care, and Elizabeth didn't care. So
there was also that whole thing too, which I was like, yay,
we need a book like this right now, you know.
So yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really did well.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Thank you, thank you. I'm so thrilled. I'm really real.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, no, it was great. So well, the question I
always have and I know that you know, this is
a recent project and it took a lot for you
to do this book, especially, like you said, it's not
like you could call a relative or someone to speak
for Mary. Besides, I know you you're always writing articles
and interviewing people. Do you have another book that you
(21:40):
might be thinking about or that you were toying with?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You do?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Okay? Can you talk? Can you hint about it?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
I can't. Yeah, I can. Actually, before I studied, you know,
and immersed myself and Mary Annie there, I wanted to
do a story about Study and I'm guessing you know
Study is dog.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yes, yes, he.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Was the First World War One service, Yes, and yeah.
And before I did all this Mary Anning research, Mary
Anning was easier in the sense that I had people
to talk to as far as well. It was mainly
emails through the the Lime Regis researchers in England. But
(22:26):
I started putting something together and Study and I want
to go back and and rework that good. I didn't
know how to write a based on a true story
without make, you know, with making up stuff I don't
want to make up. You know, everything Stubby did was
(22:48):
pretty amazing. You know, he came from Connecticut, found on
an army base, and I believe that the the military,
the person in the army, Robert Conroy, when he found Stubby,
I mean it was he was instrumental in training this dog.
(23:09):
He found him as the puppy. And I've done stories
for different websites about service people and their dogs, and
every person in the military has said to me, oh,
it's not me, it's the dog, and it's like, no,
I truly truly believe it's them too. They are, of
course none of it. Yes, And I think you do
(23:30):
know that I love animals, of.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Course you do.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That's what I think. How we became friends in the
first place. Annection as always, Yes, So I'm excited.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah, yeah. So I've got to go to the it's
like the American History museums in the Smithsonian and DC
and I got to read through Robert Conroy's Roy's scrap
book and there's a lot of news articles and such
and he uh like the articles. You know, newspaper articles
(24:05):
unfortunately aren't always one hundred percent correct, right, kind of
the same type of article for different publications. They had
Stubby as a male dog, which he was, and one
had Stubby as a female dog, which is not true.
So it was like looking through this looking through his
notes and letters and learning about World War One because
(24:26):
I really, honestly did not know much about it. And
this dog was awarded medals from three US presidents.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Right, I do remember that.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, yeah, he saved the whole troop from a guess
attack because their sense of.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Smell is sure, it's so amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, Well, so that's your next project, which, of course
we'll have to talk about when that is done.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, thank you, of course, you know it's still new and.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Okay, well thanks for sharing it. Yeah, well, but in
the meantime, The Adventures of Mary Anning Jurassic Girl by
michelse Hollow. Michelle, where can my listeners get your book?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Any bookstore? Go to your bookstore if they don't have it.
I was actually thrilled. I went to the bookstore in
the next town and they had it. Oh nice, Yeah
it was. It was a big thrill.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
No, that is a thrill. Did you take a picture
of that book? Oh you did, good girl?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
If like it's fair, it is, yes, yes, and I
tell people if you do not have a local bookstore
that you can go to or Barnes and Noble bookshop
dot org. I'm not getting any money from them for this,
but bookshop dot org is an online service where a
percent of the sale and it's still the cover price
(25:47):
of the books. It's not like they're charging you more.
A percent goes to the local bookstores where the book
is right.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yes, you know, I will talk to other authors and
they've told me to bookshop dot org. I've heard that before,
so yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
So that's great.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, you could get it out of Amazon, and everyone says, well,
I should talk about it on Amazon. Talk of Amazon,
because you know it's good to get a good Amazon review.
But I do like bookshop dot org and I like
supporting the.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Local life of course. Yes, no, that's then it's.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, and you could ask your local library. I know
it's in my local library, so that is good, and
so it's pretty much anywhere.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well that's good though, Well, that's good. And I'm sure
whoever is listening to this right now will want to
read it because you know, it's it's fascinating just because yes,
it's girl power, but she's twelve years old. It's a
true story. It's way before any of our time, early
eighteen hundreds. So it's just it's interesting in so many
(26:49):
different ways. So thank you for sharing it with us,
thank you for talking about it, and thank you for
writing it, because you know, we girl power. It's true.
I mean, we need you know, no offense. Guys, you
know we love you, but you know it's I'm a
mom to two boys exactly, so yes.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I love boys. But it was interesting seeing the girls
because I'm new to doing this whole speaking to her
about the book, to hear the girls talk about, you know,
like how did you find her? And this is so
good for us. And then today and that Science check
online people were women were complaining about the lack of
(27:29):
women in scientific journals and they do get in occasionally,
but it is harder and they don't always get credit.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And correct and this is a perfect example. And yeah, yeah,
your book was exactly that she didn't get credit.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
So so thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, so you know, thank you for writing this and
thank you for talking about it. Jurassic Girl The Adventures
of Mary Anning from Michelle se Hollow and Michelle, we
will talk when your next book is done and we'll
talk again.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
So thank you, okay, and I will listen to you,
which I always do.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You're the best. M sure. Never been a rader operator.
And this bot see a Raider varmigator
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