February 10, 2025 • 25 mins
Maria chats with Mark Rowlands--author, professor and chair of the philosophy department at the University of Miami.
Mark's latest book The Word of Dog: What Our Canine Companions Can Teach Us About Living A Good Life which teaches us that we can live a better life if we just live our lives like dogs do with a lack of self-examination.
As Mark writes "The life of a dog is a voyage and not a plan"!
Mark's latest book The Word of Dog: What Our Canine Companions Can Teach Us About Living A Good Life which teaches us that we can live a better life if we just live our lives like dogs do with a lack of self-examination.
As Mark writes "The life of a dog is a voyage and not a plan"!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Maria's MutS and Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me. Well,
he's a professor and chair of the Philosophy Department of
the University of Miami and an author of many, many,
many many books. It's Mark Rowland's welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you, thg you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm jove to be absolutely me too. So your latest book,
and of course it's dogs and we love Dogs the
word of dog, what our canine companions can teach us
about living a good life. So I really enjoyed this book, uh,
the perspective, of course, from the philosophical point of view,
because that's what you're an expert in as well. And
(00:50):
basically we can learn so much from our dogs just
if we try to live like dogs, right.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, I think it's impossible for us to live like dogs,
as you know, we're humans, right and they're not. I
think that there may be certain things, certain insights that
dogs have that we can incorporate into our own lives.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, and then what do you think of all the
things of a dog, that is probably the most important
thing that we can incorporate into our lives. If there's
one thing.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's the most important, though.
I think one of the most obvious and probably one
of the one of the easier ones to incorporate, would
be all right, dolk have this ability to sort of
take delight in what we might call the marginally positive,
so things lightly better than the otherwise would have been.
Dogs get very excited about that.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
So and a good example, I mean, once we've finished
this interview, I'll be driving. I'll be taking Shadow, my
German shed, across town to pick up my younger son
from school.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
We do this, We do this most week days. You know,
he knows exactly what's going on. He knows nothing much
will happen. We just get into a car, we'll drive
across town, we'll drive back, and we'll come in the
hast and and but nonetheless, as soon as I added
the magic words you want to come with, you know,
he will explode into a roxysm of you're like, you know,
jumping up on couches. He's even he's even managed to
(02:17):
work out how to sort of leash himself that we
have a slip leaf. She tosses them up in the
air and saw his hand in it when it comes down.
So you know, he knows he's a fart dog, and
he's been doing this for her for a long time.
He knows that nothing much is going to happen, but
still going out in the car is slightly better than
staying at Hope, right and slightly bedards enough for him
(02:39):
to just explode into this sort of celebration. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, And you tell that story in the book, and
it made me laugh because it's so true for anyone
who's ever had a dog. It's true's and not that
it's mundane to us, but it's probably something that we
just you know, you're taking your dog with you to
pick up your son. It's just something that you just do.
But dogs have such a different perspective about it, like,
oh my god, this is the greatest thing ever, even
(03:04):
though you did it yesterday at the same exact time, you.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Know, exactly, yeah, exactly, Yeah, it's really I mean, yeah,
I mean, here's another example. It's not quite as happy
as this one, but it's still it's still kind of
I think significant. Yes, some months ago, back in April
of last year's Shadow and I would go for a run.
We were a few miles out and he gave out
a loud shriek, flats to the ground. His back legs
(03:30):
were completely paralyzed. Hm. That thinks it was a spinal embolism,
the spinal stroke in the god lidship got his way
into the blood supply to his spine, cutting off the
blood supply and then paralyzing him. So you know, obviously
I didn't know what was going on, sure, and neither
did he. But all in all, he was paralyzed about
(03:50):
five minutes or so. Wow, I'm not sure the time.
But something he did in those however many minutes, it
was we were paralyzed, which I think will always with me.
When he fell down, he was he was lying in
the sun. Being in the sun when you're a dog
in Miami is not great. So he doesn't like it.
So what he did, I mean, he wouldn't he wouldn't
(04:11):
let me help him or anything like that, because I
think he was very he was terrified, but sure, but
of course, but what he did was use his front
legs to drag himself about twenty feet into the shade.
And the sort of the operating principle right is again
this sort of demogonly pardoned him, that's what cans. So
(04:32):
you know, everything that's going on is awful as far
as he was concerned, I'm sure. But nonetheless, in this moment,
now he's out of the sun, he's slightly better off
than he was the moment before when he was in
the stuff. Right, I think, you know, we're humans, we
can easily be overwhelmed by what by what life and
what time has in store for.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Us, you know, sure, and with dogs timeless, like they
don't know time like we do, but.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
They have a different relationship with time all. Yeah, and
bringing bringing a bit of that into our lives that
I think will would probably help quite.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
A bit, Yeah, for sure. And do you think with
shadow it was also a part of being you know,
because animals always think to survive that that's also why
he got himself out of the sun. I mean, where
we wouldn't think about that, even though we are we
try to survive too, But I don't think. I just
feel like humans don't have the same common sense, like
simple common sense that a dog has.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, it's it's it's it's a very good example I
think of you know, focusing on the things you can control, right,
control can't control the complete loss of motion in his
back legs. But what he can do is control whether
he's lying in the sun or not. Right, So, focusing
on what we control and not worrying too much about
what we can't is another thing we might be able
(05:51):
to incorporate.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Into Yeah, yeah, so and he's okay. Now, that's that
only happened once, that incident.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It only happened once. It was a long, long recovery.
You know. I started him off by letting him a
swim in the pool for a few weeks. After that week,
we progressed some short walks. The walks slowly got got
slightly longer every day, and then in the new year
we started running again. So he's made an almost completely
recoverany he's not quite what he was before, but he's
(06:19):
he's made a good recovery.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
That's excellent. Oh that's good news. Then that's good. Yes, No,
for sure, because I'm sure whatever was going through his
brain when it happened, you were probably completely freaked out,
because that's what we do, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Well, yeah, I mean I thought, what am I going
to do?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Now?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
You know, here was a one hundred pound doll lying
on the ground. So and my wife was out of time.
My oldest son, who could ride, was out of the country. Wow,
so I had to get my youngest son to come
round on his bicycle, then had to take that back
and get the cay with you.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It was a process, right, but anyway, but.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
At least it's a happy ending. He's better and back
to hisself. So that's great. No, that's good.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah exactly, no, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
So in the book you mentioned and many things, but
one of the things that dogs have one heart, one
mind and humans are divided. Explain that a little bit.
Speaker 5 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, so well, I think one of the one
of the big differences between humans and dogs is that
we have we have we have a capacity that they
they either lie or.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
They have it in a very minimal degree. And this
is the capacity for what sometimes called reflection. So reflection
is the ability to think about yourself, about what you're doing,
why you're doing it, about your life as a whole.
Things like that. We do that a lott dogs dogs
hard you do it at all? If that's all. So
(07:42):
once you once you've got this ability, then it's as
if you're now living two lives. There is the life
that you live in the same way that a dog
might live a life, but there's also the life that
you think about, that you judge, you scrutinize, you evaluate,
you agonize over, and so we humans always have these
two different lives and it's it's often very difficult to
sort of bring them back into into one. I think
(08:04):
one of the reasons dogs love their lives so much
is that they just have one of those things. They
don't have these two lives that we have, and it's
it's easier to love the only thing you have more
than it is to love two different things.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I suspect, hmmm, that's interesting, but it makes sense. And
I think again just because you know when people say, like, well,
live like a dog, which is basically you know you're
living in the moment, And I think that has a
lot to do with it as well, with like the split,
like you said that we.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Have, yes, so we with the split, we can now
take a sort of external perspective on the moment. We
can we can think about we can think about moments
and how they pass and things like that. But with
the dog, he's all withinside the moment, right, He's also
he's all with the stander of experience. He doesn't stand
outside and scrutinize what going on in his life in
(08:57):
that sort of way.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, which really is It's it's probably healthier for us,
I think, to live like dogs, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, to the extent we can, I should emphasize you
we can't. There are certain little little bits of dog's
life that we can we can we can help try
to bring.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Into our own right, Like, I know, there's a thing
that you always see it on social media of like
a dog with its head out a car window, and
you know it's like live like that with just the
air and the breeze going through your ears, you know,
pulling your ears back, like live with that simplicity. But
it really does make sense. I mean, like you know,
dogs don't hold grudges, they don't. They live in the moment.
(09:37):
They don't think about something that happened yesterday like we do.
Like I just feel like right like humans, we're just
we're so I don't know, like like bog down with
stuff where a dog isn't.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, yeah, I think that that that image of the
dogs sticking his head out of the cow window is
very instructive when you think about it. What wants the
dog do, and that will because it wants to miss
no other reason, you know, other than well, at that
precise moment in time, that's exactly what he wants to do, right.
And so the activity in this case sticking his head
(10:09):
out of the window is sort of its own reward.
Whereas with us we were humans, I mean, much of
our activity, much of what we do is directed to
getting something else right, so we you know, so what
much of what we do is a form of what
we pick up as work. Where work is you know,
you work because you want an external reward in the
form of pay, right, right, So much of our life
(10:33):
is structured around this sort of this sort of logic
of doing something in order to get something else, right,
So you work because you want to get paid. Why
do you want to get paid? Well, you want something else?
You want to do? What you want to meet? The
mortgage on the house? You know, why do you want
the house? Well? And so we can keep asking these
questions and that sort of what the value is always deferred.
We want to pay because we want the house, We
(10:53):
want the house because we want something else, and so
on and so on, and so what what the sort
of value is always sometimes it's always just beyond that reaching.
Where whereas when you when when you're playing, and I
think that's what the dog is doing when he puts
his head out of the car window. When you're doing something,
did me to do it because it's its own reward?
Then value is right there sort of well blowing right
(11:17):
in your face.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So to speak, right, right, Yeah, no, it just it really,
it does make a lot of sense. And I mean dogs,
do we have morals? Dogs don't really have morals?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Correct, Well, I think they probably do. I think they're.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Morals different than ours.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Webb, Well, yeah, to an extent. I think we're probably
mistaken about one our morals. Like so in philosophy. In philosophy, right,
the dominant view of moral behavior, what it means to
act morally is you have to be able to think
about your motives. Oh, I'm inclined to do this. Is
this an inclination I should act on? Or is it
(11:56):
an inclination I should resist? Right, So you find this
picture throughout the whole history of philosophy. Pretty much everyone
buys into that. I don't think dogs do that. I
don't think they think about their motives and worry about
which ones they should act on, which ones they should resist.
But I think they can be moral in a very
sort of different way, which which also which also you
(12:19):
can also find in history of philosophy. It's associated with
the Scottish loss of David Hume, where where morality is
all about having emotions which are about other people, in
particular about the well being or the welfare of other people.
So yeah, sort of classic is that when when I
became a father for the first time, the ripe old
(12:39):
age of forty four, I was a little worried about
having new hou Steerian arrangements were going to work, because
my new son would be sharing the house with Nina,
who was a German shepherd malaby mixed old, old and distinctly.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Cantangorist time right, And there was there was a test
who was Wolf a wolf hibrid wolf dog makes who
was very sweet, but she did have some you know,
fairly noticeable predis week kind of instincts.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I was a little worried about how it's all gonna work,
But it turns out that they were, you know, they
were they were better parents than me. And then in
almost every respect, if my son so much as squeep
in the middle of their eyes. You know, there'll be
these two wet noses instantaneously pressed against my face. Wake up,
your neglige and father, your son needs you. The basis
(13:28):
of this, I think is well, they they cared, they
were concerned, they were concerned about the baby. That concern
is is an emotion that takes the welfare of another
as what's you know, what's important, as it's as its object. Right,
So I think I think what I mean, I wouldn't
advise this because entire week could be last of this
(13:49):
once you start. But you know, an internet sort of
an internet search dog, dog stayed something or other. Dog
says dog, dog says boy. You know, dog says girl.
All these but you will find all these sorts of
cases where dogs seem to engage in self sacrificing behavior
because they care about whoever it is they're trying to
(14:14):
help or to stave right.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And it's true. I mean, you hear those stories, and
especially at TV news because it's kind of like a
feel good part. Like a lot of programs use that
as the last, you know, feel good story. You always
hear a story of a dog saved a family from
like a burning house, a kid drowning. There's always something
like that.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean one of my favorites. I'm
not sure i'd call it a favorite because it's very
sad as well. But a dog has been hit by
a car on a busy highway in Sally. Another dog,
you know, an enormous risk to itself. Weave this way
in and out of the traffic and eventually managed to
manages to drag this dog to safety. So that's self
(14:57):
sacrificing behavior, which seems to be the result off the
fact that the dog cares about the other dog, and
I care is the fundamental moral moral emotion?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, yeah, because I know you talked about that in
the book, and I do remember that video went viral
before things went viral, right you always.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You kept kept popping up it, did it was it
was a forerunner of virality.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Right yeah, no, but it's true. Yeah yeah. So you
said one of your dogs was part wolf. What let's
talk about that a little bit because that's something that
I mean, I hear that often. But is it very
different to have a dog that is part wolf.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well, she was the daughter of another dog who called Brannan,
who who was who was told to me as a wolf,
but he was almost certainly. I mean, it's certainly actually
a wolf wolf dog. Huh, yeah you can wolf dog
makes probably the dog malomies almost certainly. So yeah, I
was young. I was young, and I was I was
(15:59):
naivet's a a ka stupid, and I thought, yeah, I
saw advert in the local newspaper. This was back in
the day where it had disappeared in newspapers, you know,
not on no internet and say wolf wolf cubs to say.
I thought, this is what I've got to see this,
and so you know, I'm a stop up a pavis.
As soon as I decided I had to see it,
(16:20):
it was pretty much we ordained that I would I
would take one of these bold clubs home, which I did,
and I had a very enormously sort of rewarding eleven
years that we spent traveling week. I first acquired him
when I lived in Alabama for a few years. We
moved to Ireland, to England and to France, where wolf
(16:43):
dogs are not that uncommon. Actually, I was noticed to pri.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Oh really wow, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, he was pretty much fairly mundane in France.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Right, because there were so many others it's interesting. Yeah,
I mean because that's where dogs come from, so makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, he was like he was like the dog in
many respects. He was thinking with a very kind of
serious dog. He didn't he didn't, he didn't do play
very much. I saw him once playing with the ball,
passing it up in the air and jumping on it,
and he didn't know I was watching him. When he
saw me, he almost looked embarrassed. I know'd embarrassment is
(17:25):
probably beyond his his can, but to me, he looked
a bit embarrassed. He just sort of stid aled away
from the.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Ball, right, like I'm not doing what you think I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
But they are trainable, just like dogs are.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yes, yes, yeah, they're trainable. It's a bit it's a
bit harder the house trade. The house training in particular,
said a lot longer than I hoped with anything any dog.
But but again, yeah, they get it. Yeah. He had
film bibles. He didn't like being left in his own
and would eat his way through through entire houses. If
(18:01):
I oh, okay, so what happened? Basically? I thought the
easiest thing was just to take him everywhere I went.
And so, you know, sure, my classes and any socializing
I did, and so on. He came along too, So
we lived basically sort of eleven years barely out of
out of each other's view. Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well and you said, you know, otherwise
he would eat like through the house. But labs do
that too, So that's very much like a dog.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It's true. It's funny though. Yeah. So in your book
you say life of a dog is a voyage, not
a plan. Let's talk about that a little bit, because
that's a human thing, right to always have a plan.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, And the sort of virtues are having a plan
have even been enshrined in philosophy, you know. John John Raw,
the very famous political philosopher, thought, you know, it was
very important to have a rational plan for life, and
that I'm not really I'm not really conten Rational plans
are good things to have, but what they also have drawbacks,
(19:05):
And that's typically how it is with life. You know,
it's just sort of game of swings and roundabouts. What
you gain certain respects from something you you lose in
other respects. So, I mean, one of the drawbacks I
think of having a rational plan for life is that
everything it shuts down it makes you less open to
(19:26):
certain possibilities that life throws your way. You know, if
those possibilities don't cohere with the plan, then you to
ignore them. And it may be that you're ignoring the
important sort of opportunities that you should really have assumed.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Sure, like almost it takes away spontaneity.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I would think it takes spontaneity. So yeah, I think
that's that's exactly right. And I think people practice just me,
I don't know, but I mean I say, this is
someone who all the really good things, all the really
good things have happened to be seeing that happen by
the cleat accident, you know, Okay, things I haven't planned
at all, They just they just sort of things worked
(20:05):
out that way. And so I suspect there's a lot
of value in seeming accidents that we we tend to
pass over without exploring because we have a rational plan
that shuts shuts off these possibilities to us.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Interesting. I mean, it's almost, I think a little bit
like coincidences. If you open, if you're open to that, right,
things happen.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, that's kind of It's it's similar and that you Yeah,
you you have to be attuned so that you see, Yes,
you see these things when they happen, and if you're not,
then you don't and and and they're gone. Right, So yeah,
the two the two would be very similar.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, otherwise it becomes like a missed opportunity.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Yeah. Yeah, Well I found your book to be so
it was very fascinating and I love the fact that
it's you know, about my favorite thing, which is a dog,
but also from the philosophical point of view. Yeah. So
so tell me how long did it take you to
put to write the book?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
A few years? Yeah, it took a lot of I
don't know why it was. I mean, the impetus for
the book was was provided by Shadow and his baby
walks in the canal where he chases these iguanas, and
they jumped into the canal, swim across the other side,
stay there for the rest of the day, and then
(21:28):
the next morning, when iguanas apparently forget things, they're all
back on outside. The Shadow begins his whole thing again.
I thought, well, this was very like an old story
and philosophy, the myth of Sicippus, who was condemned by
the gods to roll a large rock up the hill.
When he gets from the top, it rolls back then,
And so so I thought, you know, if you replace
(21:49):
Simus with Shadow and the rock with Iguana's, then pretty
much got the same kind of story. So I don't
know how many years it was, but everybody more an
embarrassed number of years, let's say, before it finally twigged.
It dropped in my in my head, Oh yeah, this
is a bit like system, this isn't it. Once once
I realized that, then then I wrote the book quite quickly.
(22:10):
But it was the original, getting the original kind of
intuition that.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Was the hard sure, sure, And once the spark happened
where you did the comparison, then like you were often.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Running exactly that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean, I know you have many
books behind you and this is a new book. Were
there parts of this book that you decided not to
include and it will be in the following like a
follow up, or it's too soon to think about.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That, yeah, or maybe I can't No, I can't think
of anything. I I thought, right, I'll say this for
a follow up. I generally don't do that. I either
like something or and if I don't, then I just
sort of forget about it, you know, No, I mean
the next books on memory, which is is not not
(23:00):
directly related at all, but there will I'm sure there'll
be a followup, but sometimes because something will will occur
to me and then I will think, oh, I should
write about that.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Right right, right? And who knows, there's probably more with
Shadow too and his in his escapades.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, he's an old dog now, and so so I
hope he's around for a bit longer, but you never know.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Well, I think he will be because he sounds like
he's very happy and he has a good life, and
he is always searching for those iguanas, so you know,
he's on a mission every day. And that's what dogs need, right,
a mission and a job.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
So exactly, Yeah, he's staring. He's staring at me through
the glass windows this room, from the next room, he's
he's staring at me. Isn't it about time we went
for right?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Exactly? And he'll flip up and be all happy like
he's never gone out in that car.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
That's right, Like he hasn't been out for hundreds of.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Years exactly, right, Like you are the worst owner. You
haven't taken me out since you know we did this
last time. I know it's really dogs are amazing. I
just we love that. They really are so well. Mark Rowlands,
thank you so much. The Word of Dog what our
canine companions can teach us about living a good life.
(24:17):
It's a very much of a feel good book. I
know my listeners who are listening love dogs as much
as we do, so I think it's a very enjoyable
book for them. Where can people get the book?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I think pretty much everywhere everywhere the books, so I
think so all right.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well that's excellent. Thank you. Thank you for taking the
time out to talk with me today and give Shadow
a big scratch for me and a big kiss.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I will do that. Thanks so much, Maria, I really
really enjoyed it you.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Thank you all right, of course, Okay, bye bye bye
bye
It's Maria's MutS and Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with me. Well,
he's a professor and chair of the Philosophy Department of
the University of Miami and an author of many, many,
many many books. It's Mark Rowland's welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you, thg you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm jove to be absolutely me too. So your latest book,
and of course it's dogs and we love Dogs the
word of dog, what our canine companions can teach us
about living a good life. So I really enjoyed this book, uh,
the perspective, of course, from the philosophical point of view,
because that's what you're an expert in as well. And
(00:50):
basically we can learn so much from our dogs just
if we try to live like dogs, right.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, I think it's impossible for us to live like dogs,
as you know, we're humans, right and they're not. I
think that there may be certain things, certain insights that
dogs have that we can incorporate into our own lives.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, and then what do you think of all the
things of a dog, that is probably the most important
thing that we can incorporate into our lives. If there's
one thing.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's the most important, though.
I think one of the most obvious and probably one
of the one of the easier ones to incorporate, would
be all right, dolk have this ability to sort of
take delight in what we might call the marginally positive,
so things lightly better than the otherwise would have been.
Dogs get very excited about that.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
So and a good example, I mean, once we've finished
this interview, I'll be driving. I'll be taking Shadow, my
German shed, across town to pick up my younger son
from school.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
We do this, We do this most week days. You know,
he knows exactly what's going on. He knows nothing much
will happen. We just get into a car, we'll drive
across town, we'll drive back, and we'll come in the
hast and and but nonetheless, as soon as I added
the magic words you want to come with, you know,
he will explode into a roxysm of you're like, you know,
jumping up on couches. He's even he's even managed to
(02:17):
work out how to sort of leash himself that we
have a slip leaf. She tosses them up in the
air and saw his hand in it when it comes down.
So you know, he knows he's a fart dog, and
he's been doing this for her for a long time.
He knows that nothing much is going to happen, but
still going out in the car is slightly better than
staying at Hope, right and slightly bedards enough for him
(02:39):
to just explode into this sort of celebration. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, And you tell that story in the book, and
it made me laugh because it's so true for anyone
who's ever had a dog. It's true's and not that
it's mundane to us, but it's probably something that we
just you know, you're taking your dog with you to
pick up your son. It's just something that you just do.
But dogs have such a different perspective about it, like,
oh my god, this is the greatest thing ever, even
(03:04):
though you did it yesterday at the same exact time, you.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Know, exactly, yeah, exactly, Yeah, it's really I mean, yeah,
I mean, here's another example. It's not quite as happy
as this one, but it's still it's still kind of
I think significant. Yes, some months ago, back in April
of last year's Shadow and I would go for a run.
We were a few miles out and he gave out
a loud shriek, flats to the ground. His back legs
(03:30):
were completely paralyzed. Hm. That thinks it was a spinal embolism,
the spinal stroke in the god lidship got his way
into the blood supply to his spine, cutting off the
blood supply and then paralyzing him. So you know, obviously
I didn't know what was going on, sure, and neither
did he. But all in all, he was paralyzed about
(03:50):
five minutes or so. Wow, I'm not sure the time.
But something he did in those however many minutes, it
was we were paralyzed, which I think will always with me.
When he fell down, he was he was lying in
the sun. Being in the sun when you're a dog
in Miami is not great. So he doesn't like it.
So what he did, I mean, he wouldn't he wouldn't
(04:11):
let me help him or anything like that, because I
think he was very he was terrified, but sure, but
of course, but what he did was use his front
legs to drag himself about twenty feet into the shade.
And the sort of the operating principle right is again
this sort of demogonly pardoned him, that's what cans. So
(04:32):
you know, everything that's going on is awful as far
as he was concerned, I'm sure. But nonetheless, in this moment,
now he's out of the sun, he's slightly better off
than he was the moment before when he was in
the stuff. Right, I think, you know, we're humans, we
can easily be overwhelmed by what by what life and
what time has in store for.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Us, you know, sure, and with dogs timeless, like they
don't know time like we do, but.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
They have a different relationship with time all. Yeah, and
bringing bringing a bit of that into our lives that
I think will would probably help quite.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
A bit, Yeah, for sure. And do you think with
shadow it was also a part of being you know,
because animals always think to survive that that's also why
he got himself out of the sun. I mean, where
we wouldn't think about that, even though we are we
try to survive too, But I don't think. I just
feel like humans don't have the same common sense, like
simple common sense that a dog has.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, it's it's it's it's a very good example I
think of you know, focusing on the things you can control, right,
control can't control the complete loss of motion in his
back legs. But what he can do is control whether
he's lying in the sun or not. Right, So, focusing
on what we control and not worrying too much about
what we can't is another thing we might be able
(05:51):
to incorporate.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Into Yeah, yeah, so and he's okay. Now, that's that
only happened once, that incident.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It only happened once. It was a long, long recovery.
You know. I started him off by letting him a
swim in the pool for a few weeks. After that week,
we progressed some short walks. The walks slowly got got
slightly longer every day, and then in the new year
we started running again. So he's made an almost completely
recoverany he's not quite what he was before, but he's
(06:19):
he's made a good recovery.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
That's excellent. Oh that's good news. Then that's good. Yes, No,
for sure, because I'm sure whatever was going through his
brain when it happened, you were probably completely freaked out,
because that's what we do, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Well, yeah, I mean I thought, what am I going
to do?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Now?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
You know, here was a one hundred pound doll lying
on the ground. So and my wife was out of time.
My oldest son, who could ride, was out of the country. Wow,
so I had to get my youngest son to come
round on his bicycle, then had to take that back
and get the cay with you.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It was a process, right, but anyway, but.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
At least it's a happy ending. He's better and back
to hisself. So that's great. No, that's good.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah exactly, no, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
So in the book you mentioned and many things, but
one of the things that dogs have one heart, one
mind and humans are divided. Explain that a little bit.
Speaker 5 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, so well, I think one of the one
of the big differences between humans and dogs is that
we have we have we have a capacity that they
they either lie or.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
They have it in a very minimal degree. And this
is the capacity for what sometimes called reflection. So reflection
is the ability to think about yourself, about what you're doing,
why you're doing it, about your life as a whole.
Things like that. We do that a lott dogs dogs
hard you do it at all? If that's all. So
(07:42):
once you once you've got this ability, then it's as
if you're now living two lives. There is the life
that you live in the same way that a dog
might live a life, but there's also the life that
you think about, that you judge, you scrutinize, you evaluate,
you agonize over, and so we humans always have these
two different lives and it's it's often very difficult to
sort of bring them back into into one. I think
(08:04):
one of the reasons dogs love their lives so much
is that they just have one of those things. They
don't have these two lives that we have, and it's
it's easier to love the only thing you have more
than it is to love two different things.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I suspect, hmmm, that's interesting, but it makes sense. And
I think again just because you know when people say, like, well,
live like a dog, which is basically you know you're
living in the moment, And I think that has a
lot to do with it as well, with like the split,
like you said that we.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Have, yes, so we with the split, we can now
take a sort of external perspective on the moment. We
can we can think about we can think about moments
and how they pass and things like that. But with
the dog, he's all withinside the moment, right, He's also
he's all with the stander of experience. He doesn't stand
outside and scrutinize what going on in his life in
(08:57):
that sort of way.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, which really is It's it's probably healthier for us,
I think, to live like dogs, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, to the extent we can, I should emphasize you
we can't. There are certain little little bits of dog's
life that we can we can we can help try
to bring.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Into our own right, Like, I know, there's a thing
that you always see it on social media of like
a dog with its head out a car window, and
you know it's like live like that with just the
air and the breeze going through your ears, you know,
pulling your ears back, like live with that simplicity. But
it really does make sense. I mean, like you know,
dogs don't hold grudges, they don't. They live in the moment.
(09:37):
They don't think about something that happened yesterday like we do.
Like I just feel like right like humans, we're just
we're so I don't know, like like bog down with
stuff where a dog isn't.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, yeah, I think that that that image of the
dogs sticking his head out of the cow window is
very instructive when you think about it. What wants the
dog do, and that will because it wants to miss
no other reason, you know, other than well, at that
precise moment in time, that's exactly what he wants to do, right.
And so the activity in this case sticking his head
(10:09):
out of the window is sort of its own reward.
Whereas with us we were humans, I mean, much of
our activity, much of what we do is directed to
getting something else right, so we you know, so what
much of what we do is a form of what
we pick up as work. Where work is you know,
you work because you want an external reward in the
form of pay, right, right, So much of our life
(10:33):
is structured around this sort of this sort of logic
of doing something in order to get something else, right,
So you work because you want to get paid. Why
do you want to get paid? Well, you want something else?
You want to do? What you want to meet? The
mortgage on the house? You know, why do you want
the house? Well? And so we can keep asking these
questions and that sort of what the value is always deferred.
We want to pay because we want the house, We
(10:53):
want the house because we want something else, and so
on and so on, and so what what the sort
of value is always sometimes it's always just beyond that reaching.
Where whereas when you when when you're playing, and I
think that's what the dog is doing when he puts
his head out of the car window. When you're doing something,
did me to do it because it's its own reward?
Then value is right there sort of well blowing right
(11:17):
in your face.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So to speak, right, right, Yeah, no, it just it really,
it does make a lot of sense. And I mean dogs,
do we have morals? Dogs don't really have morals?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Correct, Well, I think they probably do. I think they're.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Morals different than ours.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Webb, Well, yeah, to an extent. I think we're probably
mistaken about one our morals. Like so in philosophy. In philosophy, right,
the dominant view of moral behavior, what it means to
act morally is you have to be able to think
about your motives. Oh, I'm inclined to do this. Is
this an inclination I should act on? Or is it
(11:56):
an inclination I should resist? Right, So you find this
picture throughout the whole history of philosophy. Pretty much everyone
buys into that. I don't think dogs do that. I
don't think they think about their motives and worry about
which ones they should act on, which ones they should resist.
But I think they can be moral in a very
sort of different way, which which also which also you
(12:19):
can also find in history of philosophy. It's associated with
the Scottish loss of David Hume, where where morality is
all about having emotions which are about other people, in
particular about the well being or the welfare of other people.
So yeah, sort of classic is that when when I
became a father for the first time, the ripe old
(12:39):
age of forty four, I was a little worried about
having new hou Steerian arrangements were going to work, because
my new son would be sharing the house with Nina,
who was a German shepherd malaby mixed old, old and distinctly.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Cantangorist time right, And there was there was a test
who was Wolf a wolf hibrid wolf dog makes who
was very sweet, but she did have some you know,
fairly noticeable predis week kind of instincts.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I was a little worried about how it's all gonna work,
But it turns out that they were, you know, they
were they were better parents than me. And then in
almost every respect, if my son so much as squeep
in the middle of their eyes. You know, there'll be
these two wet noses instantaneously pressed against my face. Wake up,
your neglige and father, your son needs you. The basis
(13:28):
of this, I think is well, they they cared, they
were concerned, they were concerned about the baby. That concern
is is an emotion that takes the welfare of another
as what's you know, what's important, as it's as its object. Right,
So I think I think what I mean, I wouldn't
advise this because entire week could be last of this
(13:49):
once you start. But you know, an internet sort of
an internet search dog, dog stayed something or other. Dog
says dog, dog says boy. You know, dog says girl.
All these but you will find all these sorts of
cases where dogs seem to engage in self sacrificing behavior
because they care about whoever it is they're trying to
(14:14):
help or to stave right.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And it's true. I mean, you hear those stories, and
especially at TV news because it's kind of like a
feel good part. Like a lot of programs use that
as the last, you know, feel good story. You always
hear a story of a dog saved a family from
like a burning house, a kid drowning. There's always something
like that.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean one of my favorites. I'm
not sure i'd call it a favorite because it's very
sad as well. But a dog has been hit by
a car on a busy highway in Sally. Another dog,
you know, an enormous risk to itself. Weave this way
in and out of the traffic and eventually managed to
manages to drag this dog to safety. So that's self
(14:57):
sacrificing behavior, which seems to be the result off the
fact that the dog cares about the other dog, and
I care is the fundamental moral moral emotion?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, yeah, because I know you talked about that in
the book, and I do remember that video went viral
before things went viral, right you always.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You kept kept popping up it, did it was it
was a forerunner of virality.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Right yeah, no, but it's true. Yeah yeah. So you
said one of your dogs was part wolf. What let's
talk about that a little bit because that's something that
I mean, I hear that often. But is it very
different to have a dog that is part wolf.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well, she was the daughter of another dog who called Brannan,
who who was who was told to me as a wolf,
but he was almost certainly. I mean, it's certainly actually
a wolf wolf dog. Huh, yeah you can wolf dog
makes probably the dog malomies almost certainly. So yeah, I
was young. I was young, and I was I was
(15:59):
naivet's a a ka stupid, and I thought, yeah, I
saw advert in the local newspaper. This was back in
the day where it had disappeared in newspapers, you know,
not on no internet and say wolf wolf cubs to say.
I thought, this is what I've got to see this,
and so you know, I'm a stop up a pavis.
As soon as I decided I had to see it,
(16:20):
it was pretty much we ordained that I would I
would take one of these bold clubs home, which I did,
and I had a very enormously sort of rewarding eleven
years that we spent traveling week. I first acquired him
when I lived in Alabama for a few years. We
moved to Ireland, to England and to France, where wolf
(16:43):
dogs are not that uncommon. Actually, I was noticed to pri.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Oh really wow, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, he was pretty much fairly mundane in France.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Right, because there were so many others it's interesting. Yeah,
I mean because that's where dogs come from, so makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, he was like he was like the dog in
many respects. He was thinking with a very kind of
serious dog. He didn't he didn't, he didn't do play
very much. I saw him once playing with the ball,
passing it up in the air and jumping on it,
and he didn't know I was watching him. When he
saw me, he almost looked embarrassed. I know'd embarrassment is
(17:25):
probably beyond his his can, but to me, he looked
a bit embarrassed. He just sort of stid aled away
from the.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Ball, right, like I'm not doing what you think I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
But they are trainable, just like dogs are.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yes, yes, yeah, they're trainable. It's a bit it's a
bit harder the house trade. The house training in particular,
said a lot longer than I hoped with anything any dog.
But but again, yeah, they get it. Yeah. He had
film bibles. He didn't like being left in his own
and would eat his way through through entire houses. If
(18:01):
I oh, okay, so what happened? Basically? I thought the
easiest thing was just to take him everywhere I went.
And so, you know, sure, my classes and any socializing
I did, and so on. He came along too, So
we lived basically sort of eleven years barely out of
out of each other's view. Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well and you said, you know, otherwise
he would eat like through the house. But labs do
that too, So that's very much like a dog.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It's true. It's funny though. Yeah. So in your book
you say life of a dog is a voyage, not
a plan. Let's talk about that a little bit, because
that's a human thing, right to always have a plan.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, And the sort of virtues are having a plan
have even been enshrined in philosophy, you know. John John Raw,
the very famous political philosopher, thought, you know, it was
very important to have a rational plan for life, and
that I'm not really I'm not really conten Rational plans
are good things to have, but what they also have drawbacks,
(19:05):
And that's typically how it is with life. You know,
it's just sort of game of swings and roundabouts. What
you gain certain respects from something you you lose in
other respects. So, I mean, one of the drawbacks I
think of having a rational plan for life is that
everything it shuts down it makes you less open to
(19:26):
certain possibilities that life throws your way. You know, if
those possibilities don't cohere with the plan, then you to
ignore them. And it may be that you're ignoring the
important sort of opportunities that you should really have assumed.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Sure, like almost it takes away spontaneity.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I would think it takes spontaneity. So yeah, I think
that's that's exactly right. And I think people practice just me,
I don't know, but I mean I say, this is
someone who all the really good things, all the really
good things have happened to be seeing that happen by
the cleat accident, you know, Okay, things I haven't planned
at all, They just they just sort of things worked
(20:05):
out that way. And so I suspect there's a lot
of value in seeming accidents that we we tend to
pass over without exploring because we have a rational plan
that shuts shuts off these possibilities to us.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Interesting. I mean, it's almost, I think a little bit
like coincidences. If you open, if you're open to that, right,
things happen.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, that's kind of It's it's similar and that you Yeah,
you you have to be attuned so that you see, Yes,
you see these things when they happen, and if you're not,
then you don't and and and they're gone. Right, So yeah,
the two the two would be very similar.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, otherwise it becomes like a missed opportunity.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Yeah. Yeah, Well I found your book to be so
it was very fascinating and I love the fact that
it's you know, about my favorite thing, which is a dog,
but also from the philosophical point of view. Yeah. So
so tell me how long did it take you to
put to write the book?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
A few years? Yeah, it took a lot of I
don't know why it was. I mean, the impetus for
the book was was provided by Shadow and his baby
walks in the canal where he chases these iguanas, and
they jumped into the canal, swim across the other side,
stay there for the rest of the day, and then
(21:28):
the next morning, when iguanas apparently forget things, they're all
back on outside. The Shadow begins his whole thing again.
I thought, well, this was very like an old story
and philosophy, the myth of Sicippus, who was condemned by
the gods to roll a large rock up the hill.
When he gets from the top, it rolls back then,
And so so I thought, you know, if you replace
(21:49):
Simus with Shadow and the rock with Iguana's, then pretty
much got the same kind of story. So I don't
know how many years it was, but everybody more an
embarrassed number of years, let's say, before it finally twigged.
It dropped in my in my head, Oh yeah, this
is a bit like system, this isn't it. Once once
I realized that, then then I wrote the book quite quickly.
(22:10):
But it was the original, getting the original kind of
intuition that.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Was the hard sure, sure, And once the spark happened
where you did the comparison, then like you were often.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Running exactly that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean, I know you have many
books behind you and this is a new book. Were
there parts of this book that you decided not to
include and it will be in the following like a
follow up, or it's too soon to think about.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That, yeah, or maybe I can't No, I can't think
of anything. I I thought, right, I'll say this for
a follow up. I generally don't do that. I either
like something or and if I don't, then I just
sort of forget about it, you know, No, I mean
the next books on memory, which is is not not
(23:00):
directly related at all, but there will I'm sure there'll
be a followup, but sometimes because something will will occur
to me and then I will think, oh, I should
write about that.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Right right, right? And who knows, there's probably more with
Shadow too and his in his escapades.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, he's an old dog now, and so so I
hope he's around for a bit longer, but you never know.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Well, I think he will be because he sounds like
he's very happy and he has a good life, and
he is always searching for those iguanas, so you know,
he's on a mission every day. And that's what dogs need, right,
a mission and a job.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
So exactly, Yeah, he's staring. He's staring at me through
the glass windows this room, from the next room, he's
he's staring at me. Isn't it about time we went
for right?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Exactly? And he'll flip up and be all happy like
he's never gone out in that car.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
That's right, Like he hasn't been out for hundreds of.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Years exactly, right, Like you are the worst owner. You
haven't taken me out since you know we did this
last time. I know it's really dogs are amazing. I
just we love that. They really are so well. Mark Rowlands,
thank you so much. The Word of Dog what our
canine companions can teach us about living a good life.
(24:17):
It's a very much of a feel good book. I
know my listeners who are listening love dogs as much
as we do, so I think it's a very enjoyable
book for them. Where can people get the book?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I think pretty much everywhere everywhere the books, so I
think so all right.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well that's excellent. Thank you. Thank you for taking the
time out to talk with me today and give Shadow
a big scratch for me and a big kiss.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I will do that. Thanks so much, Maria, I really
really enjoyed it you.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Thank you all right, of course, Okay, bye bye bye
bye
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