March 21, 2025 • 9 mins
Justin Vernon's Bon Iver project returms with a new album, SABLE, fABLE, on April 11. Justin Zoomed in with Bret to talk about his songwriting process and to sing the praises of filmmaker Miranda July.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Justin Vernon is the front man for bon Ever. They
have a new album on the way, and I had
the opportunity to talk with Justin Vernon about his sophisticated
songs here on the Brett Sounders podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
How's a coem Brett Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Oh, it's nice to talk with you. I wanted to
congratulate you first and foremost on writing, recording, and releasing
a song that has been in my head literally for
the entirety of twenty twenty five thus far. I'm talking
about Space Side. I wake up in the middle of
the night justin that things in my head. I don't
know how you do it. There's some kind of sonic alchemist,
(00:37):
but you've done it well.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm glad it's in there. That's what they're for, That's
what songs they're for. Right.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
In fact, one of the things I noticed about your music,
paying a lot of attention to it in recent days
and the album coming out, Sable Fable is out on
April the eleventh, is that you write songs that work
in the realm of popular music, but you write songs
for adults simultaneously. In other words, you don't write songs
(01:04):
I love you and you have to love me or
I loathe you and you therefore must loathe me. It's
nothing like that. You're really investigating human emotion in your music. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Man, it's always been that way since from the jump.
When I was a kid, I was always just interested
in what made people work.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
John Prime wrote Hello in There about the human emotion
of seeing old folks grow older. And since I was
twelve years old and I heard that song, I was
hooked into that.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, that's one of those songs, Hello in There. When
I first heard it, I thought it was a documentary
and I got really upset. And that's how great John
Prine was is a.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Songwriter, He's the number one man.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
It's been a long time since we've heard a new
album from Bonnie Vere and justin Vernon, why is that?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Justin I've been I was recovering, I think.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I think when COVID hit, I think I had a
gulp of air for the first time in a minute
and a chance to reflect. And I haven't really been
cranking the albums out in the first place. They've all
kind of taken a while. But I like to take
my time. And there's a sculptor named Andy Goldsworthy that
works with nature and his work a lot. And that's
(02:16):
kind of how I look at putting records together, is
that you start with maybe a big block of ice
and it's going to take a while for it to
take shape, and just kind of fixate over it so
that it really feels complete.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So, in other words, you look at creating your music,
creating your art, you don't look at it as I
have to crank so and so content out on a
consistent basis. In other words, the songwriting process, the music
making process, is more important to you in a non stressful,
non ultra commercial kind of scenario.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Man, I mean I just always thought that this, I
really do. I know that there's a business involved, and
there's industry, and it's actually does help the music get heard,
and you know, that's how I heard Michael Jackson when
I was four years old, you know. But I've always
looked at myself as more of in service. You know,
(03:14):
I think I'm in service of people and in service
of my own growth and discovery, and that I think
it's a spiritual task more than it is my job.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Do you also feel that you've had the opportunity to
grow as a songwriter in these recent years between releases,
and how so have you grown? I think you have.
I can't put my finger on it, but it certainly
sounds like it.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think I've gotten for years. I kind of when
the Bonavia project kind of started. It is when I
sort of started working with words in kind of a
more mysterious way and kind of letting my subconscious take over.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
And it was it was fun.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
It was really kind of reconstructive, reconstructivism or something where
the way I put the lyrics together. But I think,
you know, as I've grown and gotten matured as a person.
I think on this record particularly, I think I just
kind of coming out and saying what I feel. But
having the practice of you know, writing dozens of songs
over these last thirty years. Really, you know, it's I've seasoned.
(04:22):
I've seasoned a little bit. I think I've gotten better.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
That's fascinating. So you've grown as an artist. Is that
a goal for you or is that just part of
the natural course of evolution as a human being on
the planet.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I think when you like, I really do, I'm in
service of people and to the listener. You know, It's
why it doesn't bother me if nobody doesn't want to
hear it, or as an endo bone vera doesn't bother
me at all.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Seems very truthful in fact. But when when somebody hears
something true in the.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Music that makes me want to investigate more and more
and less and less, will I be ready to put
something out that doesn't feel complete and that takes work
and kind of perseverance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
You had a recent conversation with Amanda at The New
Yorker helped me out. I can't pronounce her last name.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You know her Patricich.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
She's I used to say Patricich, but that's not right. Petricitch.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, she's brilliant. And I found a listing quote in
the conversation that you've been getting a lot of positive
feedback for being heartbroken, so almost in the business, in
the industry, and I'm most certainly in the media, you
were encouraged for being miserable. I'm paraphrasing there, of course,
but is there no truth to that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Man, I think, you know, I, like like any kid,
I was insecure, you know, I have insecurities, and I
think when when suddenly I was getting very very recognized
and validated. I think some of those holes of insecurity
get filled up when when you got screaming fans and
people telling you that you're a visionary or whatever. It
(06:04):
can really kind of fill those holes. But I think
it's quite an unnatural and unimportant way to fill those insecurities,
you know. I think for a lot of years I
didn't really look at those insecurities with any sort of
investigative qualities, and so for a long time, I think
I was just like, let me keep subconsciously, let me
(06:24):
keep being in trouble, in heartbreak, so that I can
keep being validated. And I think once I kind of
realized that I've really put in some work too, I
don't I'll be happier.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Even the observation of that, I think it goes beyond
the observations of self awareness that a lot of people have.
So what did you use to fill those holes of
insecurity in these past several years?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Justin looking in the mirror, looking in the mirror and.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Really asking, you know, is there something wrong and instead
of saying no, saying what's true?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
And the answer is yes.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And that takes therapy, It takes being accountable to your
friends and family and just kind of realizing that it
hasn't been perfect. And just because you're quote unquote an
important musician or people look up to you, it doesn't
give you, you know, doesn't give you license to not
be accountable and to ignore things that you know in
(07:22):
your heart aren't right.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Beautifully put, you are a visionary.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Well bless you man. That's that's very kind of trying
to see the truth and things. That's all I'm trying
to do.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Tell me more about Sable Fable. How do you know
justin when it's time to put out a new album.
I'm certain you have hundreds of songs that you've never released.
So how do you know that these are the songs
that these puzzle pieces fit?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I don't know. I mean, I do liken it to
make in a film or something.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
You know, how does how does Pta or Tarantino or
Miranda Jula or whatever, like? How do they know when
it's done? I think you just you just know when
you know? And I said, I think it's just stable
and fable. They are displaying truth. And when I hung
them on the wall for five years or some of
the songs maybe less, you really if they stand the
(08:13):
test of time. You know, it's ready for them to
be shared in the world.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
How cool of you to mention Miranda July talk about
a visionary that movie? Was it Kajillionaire she had a
couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I love her films.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Will we be seeing you on the road, it's an
obligatory question. We'd love to have you play at Red
Rocks this year, Justin.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
We will see right now, right now.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
The plan is to talk to nice folks like you
and talk about the record, and then I don't know
what I got cooking up. Honestly, I'm waiting to see
what truth is coming about that.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
You're rubbing your hands? Are you cold? Where you are?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Their windows open? But it's actually only forty today, So
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
That's about what we have here too. Where are you
in the.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
World outside of Oak Claire, Wisconsin, my hometown? That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It reminds me one last question. I did notice in
some of your publicity photos you're carrying a fish. Did
you catch that fish? That's an impressive angling maneuver If
you did.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
No, that was from the old Los Angeles fish market.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
All right, Justin vernon new album is out April eleventh.
It's called sable Fable. It is nice to finally talk
to you. I want to invite you to the radio station.
Next time you're in town, come play for us in person.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I would love to brot. I appreciate you so much, man.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I appreciate that you listen. So thanks. I'm Brett Sanders
and I'll see you next time.
Justin Vernon is the front man for bon Ever. They
have a new album on the way, and I had
the opportunity to talk with Justin Vernon about his sophisticated
songs here on the Brett Sounders podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
How's a coem Brett Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Oh, it's nice to talk with you. I wanted to
congratulate you first and foremost on writing, recording, and releasing
a song that has been in my head literally for
the entirety of twenty twenty five thus far. I'm talking
about Space Side. I wake up in the middle of
the night justin that things in my head. I don't
know how you do it. There's some kind of sonic alchemist,
(00:37):
but you've done it well.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm glad it's in there. That's what they're for, That's
what songs they're for. Right.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
In fact, one of the things I noticed about your music,
paying a lot of attention to it in recent days
and the album coming out, Sable Fable is out on
April the eleventh, is that you write songs that work
in the realm of popular music, but you write songs
for adults simultaneously. In other words, you don't write songs
(01:04):
I love you and you have to love me or
I loathe you and you therefore must loathe me. It's
nothing like that. You're really investigating human emotion in your music. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Man, it's always been that way since from the jump.
When I was a kid, I was always just interested
in what made people work.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
John Prime wrote Hello in There about the human emotion
of seeing old folks grow older. And since I was
twelve years old and I heard that song, I was
hooked into that.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, that's one of those songs, Hello in There. When
I first heard it, I thought it was a documentary
and I got really upset. And that's how great John
Prine was is a.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Songwriter, He's the number one man.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
It's been a long time since we've heard a new
album from Bonnie Vere and justin Vernon, why is that?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Justin I've been I was recovering, I think.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I think when COVID hit, I think I had a
gulp of air for the first time in a minute
and a chance to reflect. And I haven't really been
cranking the albums out in the first place. They've all
kind of taken a while. But I like to take
my time. And there's a sculptor named Andy Goldsworthy that
works with nature and his work a lot. And that's
(02:16):
kind of how I look at putting records together, is
that you start with maybe a big block of ice
and it's going to take a while for it to
take shape, and just kind of fixate over it so
that it really feels complete.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So, in other words, you look at creating your music,
creating your art, you don't look at it as I
have to crank so and so content out on a
consistent basis. In other words, the songwriting process, the music
making process, is more important to you in a non stressful,
non ultra commercial kind of scenario.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Man, I mean I just always thought that this, I
really do. I know that there's a business involved, and
there's industry, and it's actually does help the music get heard,
and you know, that's how I heard Michael Jackson when
I was four years old, you know. But I've always
looked at myself as more of in service. You know,
(03:14):
I think I'm in service of people and in service
of my own growth and discovery, and that I think
it's a spiritual task more than it is my job.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Do you also feel that you've had the opportunity to
grow as a songwriter in these recent years between releases,
and how so have you grown? I think you have.
I can't put my finger on it, but it certainly
sounds like it.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think I've gotten for years. I kind of when
the Bonavia project kind of started. It is when I
sort of started working with words in kind of a
more mysterious way and kind of letting my subconscious take over.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
And it was it was fun.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
It was really kind of reconstructive, reconstructivism or something where
the way I put the lyrics together. But I think,
you know, as I've grown and gotten matured as a person.
I think on this record particularly, I think I just
kind of coming out and saying what I feel. But
having the practice of you know, writing dozens of songs
over these last thirty years. Really, you know, it's I've seasoned.
(04:22):
I've seasoned a little bit. I think I've gotten better.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
That's fascinating. So you've grown as an artist. Is that
a goal for you or is that just part of
the natural course of evolution as a human being on
the planet.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I think when you like, I really do, I'm in
service of people and to the listener. You know, It's
why it doesn't bother me if nobody doesn't want to
hear it, or as an endo bone vera doesn't bother
me at all.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Seems very truthful in fact. But when when somebody hears
something true in the.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Music that makes me want to investigate more and more
and less and less, will I be ready to put
something out that doesn't feel complete and that takes work
and kind of perseverance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
You had a recent conversation with Amanda at The New
Yorker helped me out. I can't pronounce her last name.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You know her Patricich.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
She's I used to say Patricich, but that's not right. Petricitch.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, she's brilliant. And I found a listing quote in
the conversation that you've been getting a lot of positive
feedback for being heartbroken, so almost in the business, in
the industry, and I'm most certainly in the media, you
were encouraged for being miserable. I'm paraphrasing there, of course,
but is there no truth to that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Man, I think, you know, I, like like any kid,
I was insecure, you know, I have insecurities, and I
think when when suddenly I was getting very very recognized
and validated. I think some of those holes of insecurity
get filled up when when you got screaming fans and
people telling you that you're a visionary or whatever. It
(06:04):
can really kind of fill those holes. But I think
it's quite an unnatural and unimportant way to fill those insecurities,
you know. I think for a lot of years I
didn't really look at those insecurities with any sort of
investigative qualities, and so for a long time, I think
I was just like, let me keep subconsciously, let me
(06:24):
keep being in trouble, in heartbreak, so that I can
keep being validated. And I think once I kind of
realized that I've really put in some work too, I
don't I'll be happier.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Even the observation of that, I think it goes beyond
the observations of self awareness that a lot of people have.
So what did you use to fill those holes of
insecurity in these past several years?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Justin looking in the mirror, looking in the mirror and.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Really asking, you know, is there something wrong and instead
of saying no, saying what's true?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
And the answer is yes.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And that takes therapy, It takes being accountable to your
friends and family and just kind of realizing that it
hasn't been perfect. And just because you're quote unquote an
important musician or people look up to you, it doesn't
give you, you know, doesn't give you license to not
be accountable and to ignore things that you know in
(07:22):
your heart aren't right.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Beautifully put, you are a visionary.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Well bless you man. That's that's very kind of trying
to see the truth and things. That's all I'm trying
to do.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Tell me more about Sable Fable. How do you know
justin when it's time to put out a new album.
I'm certain you have hundreds of songs that you've never released.
So how do you know that these are the songs
that these puzzle pieces fit?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I don't know. I mean, I do liken it to
make in a film or something.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
You know, how does how does Pta or Tarantino or
Miranda Jula or whatever, like? How do they know when
it's done? I think you just you just know when
you know? And I said, I think it's just stable
and fable. They are displaying truth. And when I hung
them on the wall for five years or some of
the songs maybe less, you really if they stand the
(08:13):
test of time. You know, it's ready for them to
be shared in the world.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
How cool of you to mention Miranda July talk about
a visionary that movie? Was it Kajillionaire she had a
couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I love her films.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Will we be seeing you on the road, it's an
obligatory question. We'd love to have you play at Red
Rocks this year, Justin.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
We will see right now, right now.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
The plan is to talk to nice folks like you
and talk about the record, and then I don't know
what I got cooking up. Honestly, I'm waiting to see
what truth is coming about that.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
You're rubbing your hands? Are you cold? Where you are?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Their windows open? But it's actually only forty today, So
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
That's about what we have here too. Where are you
in the.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
World outside of Oak Claire, Wisconsin, my hometown? That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It reminds me one last question. I did notice in
some of your publicity photos you're carrying a fish. Did
you catch that fish? That's an impressive angling maneuver If
you did.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
No, that was from the old Los Angeles fish market.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
All right, Justin vernon new album is out April eleventh.
It's called sable Fable. It is nice to finally talk
to you. I want to invite you to the radio station.
Next time you're in town, come play for us in person.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I would love to brot. I appreciate you so much, man.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I appreciate that you listen. So thanks. I'm Brett Sanders
and I'll see you next time.
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