August 23, 2025 • 28 mins
On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast, we present an episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank’s guest is philosopher Paul Gould, author of A Good and True Story: Eleven Clues to Understanding Our Universe and Your Place in It. Hank and Paul discuss why Paul wrote A Good and True Story, if we live our lives according to a story, how evidence for God is everywhere but needs to be rightly interpreted, the non-religious stories that explain our existence: scientism, materialism, atheism, nihilism, and reductionism; the origins of the universe, and if the immensity of the universe should inspire belief in God.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. You
are listening to the best of the Bible answer Man
Broadcast with Hank Canigraph. We're on the air because truth matters,
life matters more. On today's special edition of the Bible
answer Man Broadcast, we present a previously recorded episode of
the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank's guest is philosopher Paul Gould,
(00:31):
author of A Good and True Story Eleven Clues to
Understanding our Universe and your place in it. Well, here
now is Hank Cantagraph.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And welcome to another edition of a handk gun plug podcast.
Today we have an opportunity to talk to doctor Paul Gould,
and he lives up to every billing we could possibly
give him. He's a philosopher, a scholar, a teacher, a husband,
He's the father of four. He's a professor a philosophy
(01:06):
of religion. He's a founder and president of Two Tasks Institute.
He has a PhD in philosophy from Purdue University. And
I could say a whole lot more about his credentials,
but I'm going to leave it at that. To the
point of this podcast. He has written many books, but
I think a book that has really captured our attention
(01:28):
at the Christian Research Institute a book titled A Good
and True Story subtitled eleven Clues to Understanding Our Universe
and Your Place in it. And by the way, doctor
Gould is a contributed to Christian Research Journal and we
have a deep and abiding appreciation for him on many accounts,
(01:49):
but this is one of those areas that he really
helps us get a hold of. He gives us a
way of understanding something that is oft times confusing to people.
And this is the issue of origins. I've often said
throughout my ministry that how one views their origins ultimately
will determine how they live their life. If you think
(02:10):
you're a function of random chance that you arose from
the primordial slime, you're going to live your life by
a different standard than if you know that you're created
in the image of God and accountable to him. David
said that the heavens declare the glory of God, the
skies proclaim the work of his hands. Saint Paul said
(02:30):
God's eternal power, his divine nature clearly seen through what
has been made. So there are a couple of stories
about origins and we're going to discuss that today. But
first let me say welcome doctor Gould. Great to have
you on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Thank you, Hank. It's great to be back with you.
Looking forward to our conversation today.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, maybe I should ask you a basic question, a
good and true story. What prompted you to write this
particular book.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, that's actually a really good question that can kind
of segue from some earlier work to this one. In
twenty nineteen, I wrote a book called Cultural Apologetics. I
know we've talked about it on this podcast, And in
that book, one of the sort of more hopeful or
prescriptive parts of the book, I argued that given God's
intentions for humans, that he loves us, that he pursues us,
(03:18):
that he cares for us, He wants us to find,
you know, faith, and be redeemed in Him. Given this
intention for humans, I had this prescriptive, sort of more
hopeful idea that God could redeem culture in a way.
And the language I use is that that we would
work with God in the Holy Spirit and each other
to re enchant the world. And in that I argued
that we number one awaken longing for the things of
(03:40):
God and there's various things that I talk about in
that book there and then number two, returning to reality,
in other words, that we would begin to see the
world as it actually is. And there I said two things.
How do we return to reality? I said, number one,
as Christians, that we would see and delight in God
and all things in relation to God the way Jesus does,
so that we as Christians would learn to see in
a lot in the world the way Jesus does. And
(04:01):
number two, that we would learn to invite others to
see and delight in the world the way Jesus does.
And those two claims are two future book projects, of
which the one we're talking about today is related to
the second idea, how can we help those who don't
yet know Christ look at the world in such a
way that they see it, that they interpret it correctly,
and that it points to and is evocative of the
(04:22):
Divine So that's kind of the heart behind it. If
the twenty nineteen book was a book about cultural apologetics
written for Christians, this book, A Good and True Story
is a book what I would call a book of
cultural apologetics written to non believers.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So two things that you do in this book One
is you give a signposts. Two is you introduced us
to Lady Nature. So Lady Nature is a guide in
a theistic worldview, where sometimes we hear about Mother Nature,
who's a replacement for God in a pagan worldview.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, so one of the things that I want to
to do. So there's actually a couple theses that are
under informing the way that I wrote this book, and
one is a thesis about reality itself, and then there's
actually a thesis about humans, and then I have a
thesis about evidence. But the thesis about reality itself is that
reality is an ongoing story, right, and like any good story,
it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And
(05:20):
that's why you're right. The question of origins, will you
know figure prominently in the book because of this idea
that we are part of a story. So that's the
first thesis. The second is a thesis about humans. And
that's something that philosophers and sociologists and literary critics and
historians and theologians have noted, is that humans they say
that we are narratival animals, that we're creatures that live
our lives according to a story. And so we basically
(05:41):
come into the world, and we begin to immediately seek
a story from which we can understand our identity and
our purpose and our meaning. And so we're on this quest.
And so that's kind of the idea, is that we're
on this quest to discover the true story of the world.
And in writing in the book, one cool thing that
I found out when I was exploring the great questions
of origin, right, the origin of the universe, the origin
(06:03):
of life, the origin of species, and the origin of humans,
was that in medieval travelogues they would often call on
this personification of Lady Nature basically, and Lady Nature would
serve as a guide in these medieval travelogues to help people,
you know, look and notice and correctly interpret the world
around them. And so, in wanting to engage our imaginations
(06:25):
as we embark on this quest, I thought that it
would be important to have guides, and so Lady Nature,
given the first four chapters around the origins of you know,
the world, the physical universe that we find ourselves in,
she basically is the guide that is helping us, is
pointing saying look at this, look at this, what best
explains this?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
That kind of thing, And then you're talking about sign
posts as well, or Cairns.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
That's right, so yeah, good so. And actually that gets
to the third thesis. If there's a thesis about reality
that undergrads this that reality is a kind of story,
there's a thesis about human persons, and that's the idea
that we are on a quest to locate our lives
within the true story. The thesis about evidence is that
it's widely available, so you know, evidence is everywhere. I
think that anything and everything points to in some way,
(07:12):
the divine, but it needs to be rightly interpreted. Right
So sometimes Stephen Evans, for example, as a philosopher at Baylor,
says that the evidence for God is widely available but
easily resistible. And what he means by the easily resistible
part is that it's everywhere, but it needs to be
rightly interpreted. And that's why we need the guides. And
so what I wanted to do was take eleven clues,
eleven signposts that I think powerfully point to the true
(07:36):
story of the world in a sort of special way,
and I wanted to help the reader sort of focus
on each of those. And then the metaphor, the central
metaphor of the book was that each of these clues
or signs is kind of like those cairns on a
journey when you're kind of hiking in the mountains where
you need the cairns to kind of guide you to
the summit. And so each of these rocks individually, I
(07:57):
think is a sign or a clue. But then as
you stack them up together, it helps us find our way,
you know, to our destination, which is to discover that
true story of the world.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
These Karens are going to be important for the rest
of our life, not just for a podcast, because when
the winds and the waves of doubt beat upon our
house of faith, you can go back to those karens.
You can go back to those sign posts and say
this is why I believe.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, they give us, you know, the guardrails they
you know, I've once heard it.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
If the great theological virtues are faith, hope, and love.
You know, faith is that which gives us eyes to
see the path, but hope is that which sustains us
on the path when life gets hard, right, and so
we need faith hope, and then of course love is
the thing that we're destinying with and toward ultimately in God.
But you're right, like the walk of faith, the walk
(08:54):
of life is hard, and we need we need help,
we need guides, we need clues, we need signs, and
thankfully we need hope. And as it turns out, on
the Christian story, as you know, we read in First
Peter one three that hope is a living hope, right,
It's it's one that we can actually bank our lives on,
and that's a good thing in a world. You know,
otherwise there is no hope, and we're going to have angst,
(09:16):
in despair and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
So you say there are two stories, and the one
story is taken just as seriously as the other story
in the book. It's not as though you say, well,
there's only one story, it's the Christian story. But you say,
there's the non religious story. So give us some of
the guide posts, as it were, by which people say,
(09:42):
I believe the non religious story. Scientism, materialism, reductionism, and
so forth.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Good.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
So, you know, I thought it would be helpful to
kind of have a foil as we're kind of exploring
these these these pieces of evidence, these clues, these signs,
and one of the dominant foils, at least in the
West is the conversation that's taking place between the religious
and the non religious, or the theistic and the atheistic
world views. And so in the beginning, I just kind
(10:11):
of set these out as are two generic stories. Right,
You've got the theistic version of the religious story, you know,
which has God is the central figure of personal being
that's worthy of worship. And then on the non religious view,
at least in the West, the way that it's typically
understood is it's a kind of story that begins with
matter or something like that. And then if you wanted
a narrow tival arc, it would be, you know that
(10:31):
we humans arrive in this world late and local, at
least on Earth as far as we know, and we're
kind of vulnerable selves, and so we immediately try to
buffer ourselves from the ravages of the world and the
ravages of each other through technology. And there's a whole
bunch of philosophical assumptions to both of these views.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Stay right there, we'll be back soon to rejoin Hank
Hatigraphs conversation with doctor Paul Gould. In A Good and
True Story, philosopher Paul Gould leads readers on an aging
journey through eleven clues that suggests Christianity is not only true,
but satisfies our deepest longings as the greatest possible story.
(11:10):
This creative foray into the foundations of Christian truth explores
the universe, morality, meaning, happiness, pain, beauty, and more for
readers looking for a culturally informed presentation and rationally sound
defense of the faith. To receive your copy of a
good and true story eleven clues to understanding our universe
(11:33):
and your place in it, call eight eight eight seven
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Research Institute's Mind shaping life changing outreaches eight eight eight
seven thousand CROI, or go online to equip dot org.
That's equip dot org.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Truth Matters, Life Matters More by Hank Hannigraph is essentially
two books in one because Truth Matters. Part one equips
Christians to defend the essential truth of the historic Christian faith.
In Part two, Hank explains why life matters more and
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with God in Christ. Simply put, the map is not
(12:24):
the territory. The menu is not the meal. We cheat
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(14:08):
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(14:54):
or visit us at equip dot org. Well, here again
our hand Catigraph and his guest professor Paul Gouhl, as
they continue their conversation.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
The theistic version of the religious story you know, which
has God is the central figure, a personal being that's
worthy of worship. And then on the non religious view,
it's a kind of story that begins with matter or
something like that. And there's a whole bunch of philosophical
assumptions to both of these views, and the five that
I just sort of unpacked briefly as we begin this journey.
For the non religious view, are pretty dominant, at least
(15:36):
in the West, in our culture, and those would be
Number one, a theory about knowledge. It's called scientism, but
it's just the idea in the weak form that our
best knowledge comes from the sciences. That's a pretty dominant
view out there. That often is thought to entail Number
two materialism or what I would better be called physicalism,
and that's the idea that all that exists are material things,
or all that exists is that which physics tells us exists.
(16:00):
Number Three, that often is thought to entail atheism. We're
sometimes told that if sciences are best are only source
of knowledge, and that entails only what physics says, well,
then somehow that entails that God doesn't exist. So there's
an atheistic strand here. And then of course that would
lead to a theory about meaning that there is no meaning,
So that would be nihilism. And then there's also this
(16:21):
impulse within much of the sciences and much of the
academy for reductionism, right, that you're nothing but as Actually
Sean Carroll, I think he puts it wonderfully in his
book The Big Picture, written from a non religious or
naturalist or atheistic perspective, he says, humans are nothing but
organized mud, right, And so you have the nothing buttery.
We're just reduced to the little parts, whatever the little
(16:41):
parts happen to be. And so that's one story. And
then I put that in contrast with a broadly theistic story.
As we begin this journey.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
How important is it to learn to ask the right
questions and maybe even ask them in the right sequence.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think it's
super important. You know. Aristyle said that if we want
and this is a really bad paraphrase, if we want
to be successful in life, we need to learn to
ask the right preliminary questions.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
So, if you think about it, everyone longs for happiness,
As Pascal says, even the person who hangs himself wants.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
To be happy.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
He just thinks that that's how he will become happy.
An Aristyle's point was, well, it all depends on what
happiness is. Right, We've got to ask these preliminary questions.
Can we know it? Is it attainable?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And that's a skill in our largely anti intellectual culture
and our largely information driven, internet driven culture. Now that
we have you know, AI doing the thinking for us,
perhaps that art of asking good questions is rapidly disappearing.
And with that, though, our inability for wisdom right and
(17:49):
to live life the way that we ought. So it's
super important. I'm glad you glad you asked that.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, so let's get right into it and tackle each
one of these carts, each one of these sign posts,
each one of these these piles of rocks that we
can look back to when we're shaken in our faith.
I run into so many people. I was talking to
a young man just the other day and he said,
you know, science has shaken my faith once again. So
(18:15):
when that happens, you can go back to these signposts,
the first of which is the universe. Talk about the
universe and why there is something as opposed to there
being nothing at all.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, good, Yeah, I thought it would be. You know,
we're beginning with Lady Nature, we're looking at the four
great origin debates, right, because we're looking at the beginning
of the story. I thought it would be important not
only for everyone else, but because I find them super
interesting topics in their own right, is to look at
the origin of the universe, life, species, and humans. And
when it comes to the universe itself, there's at least
(18:49):
three well, there's at least four facts that immediately cry
out more that you you know, as we begin to
learn about certain features of the universe. Number one, that
the universe is can tingent, and all that means is
that it exists, but it didn't have to exist. Right,
in the same way that I'm contingent. I exist, but
maybe my parents, if they never met, or if they
(19:09):
never had kids, I would not have existed, Right, So
I'm a contingent being. As it turns out, the universe
is a contingent thing. It exists, but it didn't have to.
So that's a fact that cries out for explanation. Number two,
it's temporily finite. You know, standard Big Bang cosmology tells
us that the universe began a finite time ago. Number
(19:30):
three's and this was actually mind boggling to me. Was
it's just immense, right, it's you know, on average they
think there's one hundred billion galaxies with one hundred billion
stars each. It's an immense universe with an immense amount
of matter and stars and things like that. And then
number four, it's finally tuned for life. And these four
facts again cry out for explanation. And this is where
(19:54):
you enter back into the story of the two competing views, right,
is are these facts best explained by science or maybe
they have no explanation, or is the theistic explanation the
best explanation? And I argue that these four facts are
best explained given the reality of a personal being, that
is God.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I think in the context of this discussion, it's probably
worthwhile to bring out the colomn cosmological argument. And by
the way, I don't want people to get the impression
that when you read this book you're reading a manual.
You powerfully use the power of story to communicate logical
truth propositions, and maybe should cash that out first.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, okay, yeah, I mean, given what I argue, apologetics
or cultural apologetics should be where we engage the reason
and the imagination, where we respect people as fully embodied
humans that make culture and are shape by culture. You
know that we're creatures with emotions and imaginations and things
like that. I wanted to write a story that helped
people awaken into the good, goodness, and truth and beauty
(20:58):
of the Christian story to be at awe because these
features of the world that we're looking at the eleven
actually are they. As Plato would say with respect to philosophy,
philosophy begins in wonder. Well, I think it's the same
thing for the true story of the world. As we
look at these features of the world, they ought to
awaken in us a sense of wonder that sets us
on a journey of discovery. So, yeah, you're right. I
(21:19):
as a philosopher, as a trained philosopher who teaches philosophy,
I love syllogisms. But as a human being and trying
to love my neighbor, I want to help. I write
this not for my peers, right, my fellow philosophers, but
I write this as public facing kind of philosophy, and
so I write it with other epistemic values, including clarity
(21:40):
when some you know, I think there I share a
lot of my own personal journey and things like that.
So you're right, it's not strictly although it's all there,
I'm trying to communicate it in a special way.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, So the cosmological argument clone.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Right, So this is a wonderful argument. That's super easy.
It actually is. You could do premises in a conclusion
everything that begins to exist as a cause. Premise too,
the universe began to exist, Therefore the universe has a cause.
And then as you look at the nature of the cause,
that cause basically starts to sound a lot like the
theistic God and the way that science you mentioned, you know,
your friend that you're talking to that said somehow science
(22:16):
is making him think that God doesn't exist. Again, you know,
that is a kind of thought that's out there a
lot in culture. But if we think about you know,
the question is how does science actually function with respect
to the debates over ultimate reality? And the way that
I would say it is that the empirical evidence from
science serves as evidence in a philosophical premise that leads
(22:38):
to a theological conclusion. Right, So the empirical evidence, for example,
that the universe is finite tempoorly that it began is
evidence that we have from Big Bang cosmology, the expansion
of the universe because of red shift and the microwave
background radiation that we see all over the universe. These
are data points that function is evidence in support of
a premis premise too. And the column argument that has
(23:00):
theological conclusion, and so that's what's behind. There's actually three
arguments that I'm presenting in that chapter, but that's one
of them related to the temporal finitude of the universe.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
So you talk about the immensity of the universe you
just mentioned. Now they're saying the universe has trillions of galaxies,
each with billions of stars. The universe is maybe one
hundred billion light years in diameter. Multiply that by five
point nine trillion you have the number of miles. But
it's immense, it's incomprehensible. But how does that become a
(23:31):
signpost toward God?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Well, yeah, good, So what's kind of interesting. In one way,
the immensity, the sheared numbers, the sheermensities, to me actually
awakens awe and wonder. And that's just autobiographical. When I
consider this, it's just mind boggling, and it causes me
to ask this question, and it's actually a question that
has been debated since at least Copernicus, but probably forever,
(23:54):
as we've been thinking is does the universe care about
humans at all?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Right?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Is there any reason think that I matter? And so
you have, like on the non religious story, what are
the guiding principles? Is something called the principle of indifference
and that actually, like you can see this in Richard
Dawkins and many who will just say the universe cares
nothing for humans, right, And I think the immensity of
the universe causes us to ask that question, does the
universe care for us? And so you have a number
(24:20):
of atheists that give these really kind of odd arguments
from smallness and it goes something like this. They're actually
bad arguments, but they're like, the universe is really big
and humans are really small. Therefore the universe doesn't care
for us, right, you know, there's no point to the universe,
And of course you know that's not a good argument,
but there is this sense in the immensity of the
(24:41):
universe that we're trying to locate our place within this
What does it mean to be humans in an immense universe?
And as far as we know, there is no other
life as far as we know, right, Earth is the
only place where we already discovered that, and minds like
ours are really late and really local in that story,
and so that question just becomes front center when I
consider the history and the scope of the universe. I
(25:03):
wanted to include that as well.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yes, sometimes you hear the argument that we're just a
speck on a spec in the middle of specklessness. The
immensity of the universe makes us meaningless, and you sort
of allude to that. But in reality, I think one
of the things I mean, this is not part of
the book, but something maybe even comment on. I oftentimes
(25:26):
think that if we only lived for seventy eighty years,
being around for a short period of time in an
immense universe may point to our meaninglessness, but the fact
is we were created for eternity.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Thank you for listening to this special edition of the
Bible answer Man Broadcast with Hank Catagraph and his guest
philosopher Paul Gould. To hear this handk unplugged podcast interview
in its entirety, go to equip dot org, iTunes, or
wherever you listen to your favorite podcast in appreciation for
your vital gift to help strengthen and expand CRI's mind shaping,
(26:07):
life changing outreaches and would like to send you a
copy of a good and true story eleven Clues to
Understanding Our Universe and Your Place in It by doctor
Paul Gould. Call a resource consultant at eight eight eight
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(26:28):
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You can also write CRII at Post Office Box eighty
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(26:48):
listeners like you. We're on the air because truthmatters. Life
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Speaker 4 (27:01):
Truth matters, Life matters More details Hank Hanigraf's personal pilgrimage
from his long defensive truth to his discovery that life
matters more. Essentially, two books in one. Part one equips
Christians to defend the essential truths of the historic Christian faith.
Part two explains why truth is necessary but hardly sufficient.
(27:22):
That the map is not the territory, the menu is
not the meal. We are created to experience life to
the full through union with God in Christ. Is there
more to the Christian life? Than what you are experiencing.
Truth matters, Life matters More unveils the unexpected beauty of
an authentic Christian life. To receive Truth matters, Life matters
(27:42):
More for yourself or as a terrific gift to a
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From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. You
are listening to the best of the Bible answer Man
Broadcast with Hank Canigraph. We're on the air because truth matters,
life matters more. On today's special edition of the Bible
answer Man Broadcast, we present a previously recorded episode of
the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank's guest is philosopher Paul Gould,
(00:31):
author of A Good and True Story Eleven Clues to
Understanding our Universe and your place in it. Well, here
now is Hank Cantagraph.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And welcome to another edition of a handk gun plug podcast.
Today we have an opportunity to talk to doctor Paul Gould,
and he lives up to every billing we could possibly
give him. He's a philosopher, a scholar, a teacher, a husband,
He's the father of four. He's a professor a philosophy
(01:06):
of religion. He's a founder and president of Two Tasks Institute.
He has a PhD in philosophy from Purdue University. And
I could say a whole lot more about his credentials,
but I'm going to leave it at that. To the
point of this podcast. He has written many books, but
I think a book that has really captured our attention
(01:28):
at the Christian Research Institute a book titled A Good
and True Story subtitled eleven Clues to Understanding Our Universe
and Your Place in it. And by the way, doctor
Gould is a contributed to Christian Research Journal and we
have a deep and abiding appreciation for him on many accounts,
(01:49):
but this is one of those areas that he really
helps us get a hold of. He gives us a
way of understanding something that is oft times confusing to people.
And this is the issue of origins. I've often said
throughout my ministry that how one views their origins ultimately
will determine how they live their life. If you think
(02:10):
you're a function of random chance that you arose from
the primordial slime, you're going to live your life by
a different standard than if you know that you're created
in the image of God and accountable to him. David
said that the heavens declare the glory of God, the
skies proclaim the work of his hands. Saint Paul said
(02:30):
God's eternal power, his divine nature clearly seen through what
has been made. So there are a couple of stories
about origins and we're going to discuss that today. But
first let me say welcome doctor Gould. Great to have
you on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Thank you, Hank. It's great to be back with you.
Looking forward to our conversation today.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, maybe I should ask you a basic question, a
good and true story. What prompted you to write this
particular book.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, that's actually a really good question that can kind
of segue from some earlier work to this one. In
twenty nineteen, I wrote a book called Cultural Apologetics. I
know we've talked about it on this podcast, And in
that book, one of the sort of more hopeful or
prescriptive parts of the book, I argued that given God's
intentions for humans, that he loves us, that he pursues us,
(03:18):
that he cares for us, He wants us to find,
you know, faith, and be redeemed in Him. Given this
intention for humans, I had this prescriptive, sort of more
hopeful idea that God could redeem culture in a way.
And the language I use is that that we would
work with God in the Holy Spirit and each other
to re enchant the world. And in that I argued
that we number one awaken longing for the things of
(03:40):
God and there's various things that I talk about in
that book there and then number two, returning to reality,
in other words, that we would begin to see the
world as it actually is. And there I said two things.
How do we return to reality? I said, number one,
as Christians, that we would see and delight in God
and all things in relation to God the way Jesus does,
so that we as Christians would learn to see in
a lot in the world the way Jesus does. And
(04:01):
number two, that we would learn to invite others to
see and delight in the world the way Jesus does.
And those two claims are two future book projects, of
which the one we're talking about today is related to
the second idea, how can we help those who don't
yet know Christ look at the world in such a
way that they see it, that they interpret it correctly,
and that it points to and is evocative of the
(04:22):
Divine So that's kind of the heart behind it. If
the twenty nineteen book was a book about cultural apologetics
written for Christians, this book, A Good and True Story
is a book what I would call a book of
cultural apologetics written to non believers.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So two things that you do in this book One
is you give a signposts. Two is you introduced us
to Lady Nature. So Lady Nature is a guide in
a theistic worldview, where sometimes we hear about Mother Nature,
who's a replacement for God in a pagan worldview.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, so one of the things that I want to
to do. So there's actually a couple theses that are
under informing the way that I wrote this book, and
one is a thesis about reality itself, and then there's
actually a thesis about humans, and then I have a
thesis about evidence. But the thesis about reality itself is that
reality is an ongoing story, right, and like any good story,
it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And
(05:20):
that's why you're right. The question of origins, will you
know figure prominently in the book because of this idea
that we are part of a story. So that's the
first thesis. The second is a thesis about humans. And
that's something that philosophers and sociologists and literary critics and
historians and theologians have noted, is that humans they say
that we are narratival animals, that we're creatures that live
our lives according to a story. And so we basically
(05:41):
come into the world, and we begin to immediately seek
a story from which we can understand our identity and
our purpose and our meaning. And so we're on this quest.
And so that's kind of the idea, is that we're
on this quest to discover the true story of the world.
And in writing in the book, one cool thing that
I found out when I was exploring the great questions
of origin, right, the origin of the universe, the origin
(06:03):
of life, the origin of species, and the origin of humans,
was that in medieval travelogues they would often call on
this personification of Lady Nature basically, and Lady Nature would
serve as a guide in these medieval travelogues to help people,
you know, look and notice and correctly interpret the world
around them. And so, in wanting to engage our imaginations
(06:25):
as we embark on this quest, I thought that it
would be important to have guides, and so Lady Nature,
given the first four chapters around the origins of you know,
the world, the physical universe that we find ourselves in,
she basically is the guide that is helping us, is
pointing saying look at this, look at this, what best
explains this?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
That kind of thing, And then you're talking about sign
posts as well, or Cairns.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
That's right, so yeah, good so. And actually that gets
to the third thesis. If there's a thesis about reality
that undergrads this that reality is a kind of story,
there's a thesis about human persons, and that's the idea
that we are on a quest to locate our lives
within the true story. The thesis about evidence is that
it's widely available, so you know, evidence is everywhere. I
think that anything and everything points to in some way,
(07:12):
the divine, but it needs to be rightly interpreted. Right
So sometimes Stephen Evans, for example, as a philosopher at Baylor,
says that the evidence for God is widely available but
easily resistible. And what he means by the easily resistible
part is that it's everywhere, but it needs to be
rightly interpreted. And that's why we need the guides. And
so what I wanted to do was take eleven clues,
eleven signposts that I think powerfully point to the true
(07:36):
story of the world in a sort of special way,
and I wanted to help the reader sort of focus
on each of those. And then the metaphor, the central
metaphor of the book was that each of these clues
or signs is kind of like those cairns on a
journey when you're kind of hiking in the mountains where
you need the cairns to kind of guide you to
the summit. And so each of these rocks individually, I
(07:57):
think is a sign or a clue. But then as
you stack them up together, it helps us find our way,
you know, to our destination, which is to discover that
true story of the world.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
These Karens are going to be important for the rest
of our life, not just for a podcast, because when
the winds and the waves of doubt beat upon our
house of faith, you can go back to those karens.
You can go back to those sign posts and say
this is why I believe.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, they give us, you know, the guardrails they
you know, I've once heard it.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
If the great theological virtues are faith, hope, and love.
You know, faith is that which gives us eyes to
see the path, but hope is that which sustains us
on the path when life gets hard, right, and so
we need faith hope, and then of course love is
the thing that we're destinying with and toward ultimately in God.
But you're right, like the walk of faith, the walk
(08:54):
of life is hard, and we need we need help,
we need guides, we need clues, we need signs, and
thankfully we need hope. And as it turns out, on
the Christian story, as you know, we read in First
Peter one three that hope is a living hope, right,
It's it's one that we can actually bank our lives on,
and that's a good thing in a world. You know,
otherwise there is no hope, and we're going to have angst,
(09:16):
in despair and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
So you say there are two stories, and the one
story is taken just as seriously as the other story
in the book. It's not as though you say, well,
there's only one story, it's the Christian story. But you say,
there's the non religious story. So give us some of
the guide posts, as it were, by which people say,
(09:42):
I believe the non religious story. Scientism, materialism, reductionism, and
so forth.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Good.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
So, you know, I thought it would be helpful to
kind of have a foil as we're kind of exploring
these these these pieces of evidence, these clues, these signs,
and one of the dominant foils, at least in the
West is the conversation that's taking place between the religious
and the non religious, or the theistic and the atheistic
world views. And so in the beginning, I just kind
(10:11):
of set these out as are two generic stories. Right,
You've got the theistic version of the religious story, you know,
which has God is the central figure of personal being
that's worthy of worship. And then on the non religious view,
at least in the West, the way that it's typically
understood is it's a kind of story that begins with
matter or something like that. And then if you wanted
a narrow tival arc, it would be, you know that
(10:31):
we humans arrive in this world late and local, at
least on Earth as far as we know, and we're
kind of vulnerable selves, and so we immediately try to
buffer ourselves from the ravages of the world and the
ravages of each other through technology. And there's a whole
bunch of philosophical assumptions to both of these views.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Stay right there, we'll be back soon to rejoin Hank
Hatigraphs conversation with doctor Paul Gould. In A Good and
True Story, philosopher Paul Gould leads readers on an aging
journey through eleven clues that suggests Christianity is not only true,
but satisfies our deepest longings as the greatest possible story.
(11:10):
This creative foray into the foundations of Christian truth explores
the universe, morality, meaning, happiness, pain, beauty, and more for
readers looking for a culturally informed presentation and rationally sound
defense of the faith. To receive your copy of a
good and true story eleven clues to understanding our universe
(11:33):
and your place in it, call eight eight eight seven
thousand CROI and make a gift to support the Christian
Research Institute's Mind shaping life changing outreaches eight eight eight
seven thousand CROI, or go online to equip dot org.
That's equip dot org.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Truth Matters, Life Matters More by Hank Hannigraph is essentially
two books in one because Truth Matters. Part one equips
Christians to defend the essential truth of the historic Christian faith.
In Part two, Hank explains why life matters more and
how we can experience the height of human existence union
with God in Christ. Simply put, the map is not
(12:24):
the territory. The menu is not the meal. We cheat
ourselves of authentic union with Christ when we elevate the
message above the Messiah. Truth Matters, Life matters More, is
a modern classic and the magnum opus of one of
the great theological minds of our time. To receive Truth Matters,
Life matters More, simply call eight eight eight seven thousand
(12:46):
CRI and make a gift in support of the life
changing work of the Christian Research Institute. That's eight eight
eight seven thousand CRI, or go online to equip dot org.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Bertrand Russell famously said most people would rather die than think,
and many of them do not so with CRI Support
Team members. Support Team members are not only serious thinkers,
but their membership and CRI's Support Team helps to equip
hundreds of thousands of fellow believers around the globe each
(13:22):
and every month. Are you not a member, then you're
missing out. Not only do Support Team members form the
backbone of Christian Research Institute's outreaches, but they enjoy their
selection of resources from our Equipping Essentials library to discover
how you can make a difference twenty four to seven
and equipping believers at home and abroad to stand for
(13:45):
life and truth. Check out the benefits of membership at
equip dot org. Once again, that's equip dot org. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition is the comprehensive collection
of the most often asked questions Hank Hannigraph has received
(14:08):
throughout his four decades as host of the Bible answer
Man broadcast. With more than half a million copies already
in print, this newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helped
seekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth on topics
such as reliability of the Bible, religions and cults, the
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(14:31):
better understanding of God in Christ and our relationship to Him.
To receive your copy of The Complete Bible answer Book
Collector's Edition, Revised and Expanded, call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRII and make a gift to support the Christian
Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRII,
(14:54):
or visit us at equip dot org. Well, here again
our hand Catigraph and his guest professor Paul Gouhl, as
they continue their conversation.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
The theistic version of the religious story you know, which
has God is the central figure, a personal being that's
worthy of worship. And then on the non religious view,
it's a kind of story that begins with matter or
something like that. And there's a whole bunch of philosophical
assumptions to both of these views, and the five that
I just sort of unpacked briefly as we begin this journey.
For the non religious view, are pretty dominant, at least
(15:36):
in the West, in our culture, and those would be
Number one, a theory about knowledge. It's called scientism, but
it's just the idea in the weak form that our
best knowledge comes from the sciences. That's a pretty dominant
view out there. That often is thought to entail Number
two materialism or what I would better be called physicalism,
and that's the idea that all that exists are material things,
or all that exists is that which physics tells us exists.
(16:00):
Number Three, that often is thought to entail atheism. We're
sometimes told that if sciences are best are only source
of knowledge, and that entails only what physics says, well,
then somehow that entails that God doesn't exist. So there's
an atheistic strand here. And then of course that would
lead to a theory about meaning that there is no meaning,
So that would be nihilism. And then there's also this
(16:21):
impulse within much of the sciences and much of the
academy for reductionism, right, that you're nothing but as Actually
Sean Carroll, I think he puts it wonderfully in his
book The Big Picture, written from a non religious or
naturalist or atheistic perspective, he says, humans are nothing but
organized mud, right, And so you have the nothing buttery.
We're just reduced to the little parts, whatever the little
(16:41):
parts happen to be. And so that's one story. And
then I put that in contrast with a broadly theistic story.
As we begin this journey.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
How important is it to learn to ask the right
questions and maybe even ask them in the right sequence.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think it's
super important. You know. Aristyle said that if we want
and this is a really bad paraphrase, if we want
to be successful in life, we need to learn to
ask the right preliminary questions.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
So, if you think about it, everyone longs for happiness,
As Pascal says, even the person who hangs himself wants.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
To be happy.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
He just thinks that that's how he will become happy.
An Aristyle's point was, well, it all depends on what
happiness is. Right, We've got to ask these preliminary questions.
Can we know it? Is it attainable?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And that's a skill in our largely anti intellectual culture
and our largely information driven, internet driven culture. Now that
we have you know, AI doing the thinking for us,
perhaps that art of asking good questions is rapidly disappearing.
And with that, though, our inability for wisdom right and
(17:49):
to live life the way that we ought. So it's
super important. I'm glad you glad you asked that.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, so let's get right into it and tackle each
one of these carts, each one of these sign posts,
each one of these these piles of rocks that we
can look back to when we're shaken in our faith.
I run into so many people. I was talking to
a young man just the other day and he said,
you know, science has shaken my faith once again. So
(18:15):
when that happens, you can go back to these signposts,
the first of which is the universe. Talk about the
universe and why there is something as opposed to there
being nothing at all.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, good, Yeah, I thought it would be. You know,
we're beginning with Lady Nature, we're looking at the four
great origin debates, right, because we're looking at the beginning
of the story. I thought it would be important not
only for everyone else, but because I find them super
interesting topics in their own right, is to look at
the origin of the universe, life, species, and humans. And
when it comes to the universe itself, there's at least
(18:49):
three well, there's at least four facts that immediately cry
out more that you you know, as we begin to
learn about certain features of the universe. Number one, that
the universe is can tingent, and all that means is
that it exists, but it didn't have to exist. Right,
in the same way that I'm contingent. I exist, but
maybe my parents, if they never met, or if they
(19:09):
never had kids, I would not have existed, Right, So
I'm a contingent being. As it turns out, the universe
is a contingent thing. It exists, but it didn't have to.
So that's a fact that cries out for explanation. Number two,
it's temporily finite. You know, standard Big Bang cosmology tells
us that the universe began a finite time ago. Number
(19:30):
three's and this was actually mind boggling to me. Was
it's just immense, right, it's you know, on average they
think there's one hundred billion galaxies with one hundred billion
stars each. It's an immense universe with an immense amount
of matter and stars and things like that. And then
number four, it's finally tuned for life. And these four
facts again cry out for explanation. And this is where
(19:54):
you enter back into the story of the two competing views, right,
is are these facts best explained by science or maybe
they have no explanation, or is the theistic explanation the
best explanation? And I argue that these four facts are
best explained given the reality of a personal being, that
is God.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I think in the context of this discussion, it's probably
worthwhile to bring out the colomn cosmological argument. And by
the way, I don't want people to get the impression
that when you read this book you're reading a manual.
You powerfully use the power of story to communicate logical
truth propositions, and maybe should cash that out first.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, okay, yeah, I mean, given what I argue, apologetics
or cultural apologetics should be where we engage the reason
and the imagination, where we respect people as fully embodied
humans that make culture and are shape by culture. You
know that we're creatures with emotions and imaginations and things
like that. I wanted to write a story that helped
people awaken into the good, goodness, and truth and beauty
(20:58):
of the Christian story to be at awe because these
features of the world that we're looking at the eleven
actually are they. As Plato would say with respect to philosophy,
philosophy begins in wonder. Well, I think it's the same
thing for the true story of the world. As we
look at these features of the world, they ought to
awaken in us a sense of wonder that sets us
on a journey of discovery. So, yeah, you're right. I
(21:19):
as a philosopher, as a trained philosopher who teaches philosophy,
I love syllogisms. But as a human being and trying
to love my neighbor, I want to help. I write
this not for my peers, right, my fellow philosophers, but
I write this as public facing kind of philosophy, and
so I write it with other epistemic values, including clarity
(21:40):
when some you know, I think there I share a
lot of my own personal journey and things like that.
So you're right, it's not strictly although it's all there,
I'm trying to communicate it in a special way.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, So the cosmological argument clone.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Right, So this is a wonderful argument. That's super easy.
It actually is. You could do premises in a conclusion
everything that begins to exist as a cause. Premise too,
the universe began to exist, Therefore the universe has a cause.
And then as you look at the nature of the cause,
that cause basically starts to sound a lot like the
theistic God and the way that science you mentioned, you know,
your friend that you're talking to that said somehow science
(22:16):
is making him think that God doesn't exist. Again, you know,
that is a kind of thought that's out there a
lot in culture. But if we think about you know,
the question is how does science actually function with respect
to the debates over ultimate reality? And the way that
I would say it is that the empirical evidence from
science serves as evidence in a philosophical premise that leads
(22:38):
to a theological conclusion. Right, So the empirical evidence, for example,
that the universe is finite tempoorly that it began is
evidence that we have from Big Bang cosmology, the expansion
of the universe because of red shift and the microwave
background radiation that we see all over the universe. These
are data points that function is evidence in support of
a premis premise too. And the column argument that has
(23:00):
theological conclusion, and so that's what's behind. There's actually three
arguments that I'm presenting in that chapter, but that's one
of them related to the temporal finitude of the universe.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
So you talk about the immensity of the universe you
just mentioned. Now they're saying the universe has trillions of galaxies,
each with billions of stars. The universe is maybe one
hundred billion light years in diameter. Multiply that by five
point nine trillion you have the number of miles. But
it's immense, it's incomprehensible. But how does that become a
(23:31):
signpost toward God?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Well, yeah, good, So what's kind of interesting. In one way,
the immensity, the sheared numbers, the sheermensities, to me actually
awakens awe and wonder. And that's just autobiographical. When I
consider this, it's just mind boggling, and it causes me
to ask this question, and it's actually a question that
has been debated since at least Copernicus, but probably forever,
(23:54):
as we've been thinking is does the universe care about
humans at all?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Right?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Is there any reason think that I matter? And so
you have, like on the non religious story, what are
the guiding principles? Is something called the principle of indifference
and that actually, like you can see this in Richard
Dawkins and many who will just say the universe cares
nothing for humans, right, And I think the immensity of
the universe causes us to ask that question, does the
universe care for us? And so you have a number
(24:20):
of atheists that give these really kind of odd arguments
from smallness and it goes something like this. They're actually
bad arguments, but they're like, the universe is really big
and humans are really small. Therefore the universe doesn't care
for us, right, you know, there's no point to the universe,
And of course you know that's not a good argument,
but there is this sense in the immensity of the
(24:41):
universe that we're trying to locate our place within this
What does it mean to be humans in an immense universe?
And as far as we know, there is no other
life as far as we know, right, Earth is the
only place where we already discovered that, and minds like
ours are really late and really local in that story,
and so that question just becomes front center when I
consider the history and the scope of the universe. I
(25:03):
wanted to include that as well.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yes, sometimes you hear the argument that we're just a
speck on a spec in the middle of specklessness. The
immensity of the universe makes us meaningless, and you sort
of allude to that. But in reality, I think one
of the things I mean, this is not part of
the book, but something maybe even comment on. I oftentimes
(25:26):
think that if we only lived for seventy eighty years,
being around for a short period of time in an
immense universe may point to our meaninglessness, but the fact
is we were created for eternity.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Thank you for listening to this special edition of the
Bible answer Man Broadcast with Hank Catagraph and his guest
philosopher Paul Gould. To hear this handk unplugged podcast interview
in its entirety, go to equip dot org, iTunes, or
wherever you listen to your favorite podcast in appreciation for
your vital gift to help strengthen and expand CRI's mind shaping,
(26:07):
life changing outreaches and would like to send you a
copy of a good and true story eleven Clues to
Understanding Our Universe and Your Place in It by doctor
Paul Gould. Call a resource consultant at eight eight eight
seven thousand CRII eight eight eight seven thousand CRII, or
(26:28):
visit our website equip dot org. That's equip dot oorg.
You can also write CRII at Post Office Box eighty
five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code two eight two
seven one. The Bible answer Man Broadcast is funded by
(26:48):
listeners like you. We're on the air because truthmatters. Life
matters more.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Truth matters, Life matters More details Hank Hanigraf's personal pilgrimage
from his long defensive truth to his discovery that life
matters more. Essentially, two books in one. Part one equips
Christians to defend the essential truths of the historic Christian faith.
Part two explains why truth is necessary but hardly sufficient.
(27:22):
That the map is not the territory, the menu is
not the meal. We are created to experience life to
the full through union with God in Christ. Is there
more to the Christian life? Than what you are experiencing.
Truth matters, Life matters More unveils the unexpected beauty of
an authentic Christian life. To receive Truth matters, Life matters
(27:42):
More for yourself or as a terrific gift to a
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