August 16, 2025 • 28 mins
On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast, we present an episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank’s guest is Dr. Marcellino D’Ambrosio, author of When the Church Was Young: Voices of the Early Fathers. Hank and Dr. D’Ambrosio discuss the importance of unity within the body of Christ as an answer to the Lord’s High Priestly Prayer, St. Clement of Rome and his letter to the Corinthians dealing with division in the Church, the martyrdom of Ignatius of Antioch, and understanding the importance of holy tradition.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. This
is the Bible answer Man Broadcast with Hank Canigraph. We're
on the air because truth matters and life matters. More.
On today's special edition of the Bible answer Man Broadcast,
we present a previously recorded episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast.
(00:28):
Hank's guest is doctor Marcillino Dembrosio, author of When the
Church Was Young Voices of the Early Fathers. Here now
is Hank Canigraph.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, Welcome to another edition of Hank Unplugged, the podcast
dedicated to bringing the most interesting, informative and inspirational people
directly to your earbuds. Today, I have an incredible guest.
His name is Marcellino Ambrosio and he is a world
(01:00):
renowned commentator on spiritual matters. What I love about Marchialino
is that he has a gift for taking the complex
and making it accessible. He's affectionately known as doctor Italy
and his many things to his credit, including being co
author of The Catch, this three million copy bestseller known
(01:27):
as The Guide to the Passion, the book that I
fell in love with, However, the book that I want
to really get into on this podcast is a book
titled When the Church Was Young subtitled Voices of the
Early Fathers. And this book is nothing short of gripping.
(01:49):
In fact, it's very, very difficult to put down. When
I first picked it up, I quite literally disrupted my schedule.
I went out and talked to one of my researchers,
and I kept reading him page after page after page.
And so I love this book. It's one of those
books you want to read again and again and again.
(02:12):
What I am particularly intoxicated by, I suppose, is that
this book underscores the common heritage of the faith once
for all, delivered to the Saints. You know, long before
the words Catholic and Orthodox and Evangelical were losed as
labels the Church of the Fathers, well, they glorified in
(02:37):
one faith, in one united body of Christ. And I
think by understanding our common heretance, the genuine Body of
Christ can move towards will, an answer to the Lord's
high priestly prayer, move towards unity around the essentials of
the common faith of faith that was hammered out in
(02:59):
the Council of Faith, that is codified in the Creeds. Well,
there's so much I'd like to say about Marchalino, but
you'll find out about him in the podcast. March Allino.
It is just wonderful having you on, Hank unplugged, Hank.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
It's a pleasure to be here, a pleasure. Indeed, thank
you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I love your book, and you know, as I was saying,
this is one of those books that takes us back
to our common inheritance, a time when we didn't have
the labels, the time in which the church was one.
And I suppose we ought to start the podcast out
by talking about how important unity is to Christ. Christ
(03:42):
emphasized unity in his high priestly prayer. He prayed that
we all might be as one, so that the world
might believe that you sent me in. So often when
I talk about oneness within the body of Christ, it
seems an impossible dream. And I suppose it's hard to
get back to the time when the church was one,
(04:04):
But I do think we have to work towards an
answer to the Lord's side priestly prayer, an answer of
unification around the essentials coudified in the Creeds and the councils.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, if we love Him, then we have to be
dedicated to what he prayed for in his last evening
of his life. And if we love the world, we
need to be dedicated to unity. Because without unity, it's
very hard for the world to recognize that Jesus was
sent by the Father. This is what Jesus says. And
so the stakes are really high. And I think all
(04:38):
too often we get bogged down in our own section
of the vineyard and forget this big issue, this big picture.
And I want to challenge everybody to just examine yourself.
You know, everyone who's listening, how often do you pray
for the unity of the Body of Christ? And what
have you done to build bridges? I think all of
(04:58):
us can be bridge built and all of us can
be intercessors, all of us can be instruments to unity.
And when you read the Fathers of the Church, you
realize how passionate these men were about unity.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and we're going to get to that later on
in the podcast. But to your point, I want to
read a quote I just opened my book, Truth Matters,
Life matters more than I have an epigraph by the
ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew who says this, there is a direct
link between the oneness of Christians after the image of
the Trinity and the missionary dimension of the Church. The
(05:36):
Church looks not inward but outward. It exists not for
the sake of itself, but for the sake of the
world's salvation. The Church as a mystery of mutual trinitarian
love is true to itself only if the circle of
love is being constantly enlarged, only if new persons are
(05:57):
continually being brought within it. The Triune God signifies that
we are, each of us missionaries dedicated to the preaching
of the Gospel. And so here you have the patriarch
an Istanbul or Constantinople talking about how important it is
(06:18):
to see ourselves unified, because unification of the Church ultimately
leads to the salvation of the world.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Amen. And it really proceeds from who God is. God
is three persons in one God. So the interpersonal unity
of God is the basis of all reality, and the
Church is meant to manifest that. And so it's such
a counter sign when we manifest squabbling and division and disunity.
(06:47):
You know, it's really a blot. It's a counter sign.
So anyway, it's really really important to be aware of
the gift of unity, to preserve it, to enlarge it,
to strengthen it, to recover it.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, and I think it's important and to point out,
as we talk about unity, we're not talking about keeping
the shell and throwing away the nut. We're talking about
unity around the essentials of the Christian faith, the faith
once for all delivered to the Saints, and that unity
is manifested in the councils and the creeds. And I
(07:19):
want to go through that, but let's start by sort
of walking through your book. You offer this fabulous chronology
the early Church Fathers. In writing about the voices of
the Early Church Fathers. We're talking about a period that
stretches from the voices of Jesus and the Apostles to
(07:40):
about the middle of the eighth century. So that's a
long period of time. But you break that time frame
into bite sized chunks and you start with the Apostolic
father So you have the Apostolic Fathers, you have the Apologists,
and then you have the Church Fathers. And we'll get
into all of that, but let's zoom in on three
(08:00):
Apostolic fathers that you highlight in the book. These are
fathers that I truly can say, I've fallen in love
with not only through reading your book, but just through
reading these fathers and knowing their testimonies. Some of them
were alive at the time of the Apostles, they had
contact with them, they learned from them. And I want
(08:23):
to begin with Clement of Rome. Clement of Rome died,
I guess somewhere towards the end of the first century,
but his life lives on, and if we know about
his life, his life had a tremendous impact on our
own lives.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Absolutely. Actually, in Rome there's a church of Saint Clement
that commemorates this man, and the church is fascinating because
it's a journey. As you go from the ground floor,
just Middle Ages, down to the next level, you have
a fourth century church there from the time of the
fathers like Athanasius, you know. But if you go deeper
(09:01):
there's a first century house church that's probably the home
of Clement. And so anyway, you know, I feel a
real connection with him, not only through his letter, but
through visiting that place in Rome. Very critical probably you know,
one of the earliest writings we have after the New Testament,
probably his letter is about ninety five AD. That's the
(09:21):
best guest that we have for it. But it gives
us a glimpse into challenges in the Church of corinth
a church founded by Paul. But also it gives us
an image into the Roman Church and its culture and
the way it praise, the way it lives. So it's
an awesome gift.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Well, what's so cool about starting with Clement of Rome
is that you and I were just talking about a
commitment to unity, and this was the very thing that
Clement of Rome was committed to. He said to divide
the church, just to do violence to Christ. So we
learn a lot early on about a church that was
unified and a church that was so dead set against
(10:04):
becoming divisive and having divisions within it. And yet in
history we find that that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yes, indeed, we see actually the calls letter to the Corinthians.
His first letter is dealing with factions and it's a
call to unity in Christ. And so we see this
letter by Clinic was written probably about forty thirty to
four years later, and he's dealing with the same issue.
Some younger people have overthrown the established leaders of the church,
(10:37):
called elders or bishops and had kind of taken over.
And Clement writes from Rome and and he basically says, look,
first of all, it's not about exalting yourself. Christianity is
about laying your life down. It's being small. Humility is key.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Don't go away, and just a few moments we'll rejoin
Hank Anagraph's conversation with doctor Marcollino Dembrosio, Sir Isaac Newton said,
if I have seen further, it is by standing on
the shoulders of giants. As Christians, we indeed stand on
the shoulders of giants. Unfortunately, many modern Christians barely know
(11:16):
the names of the early Church fathers. If you're curious
about these remarkable early Christians upon whose shoulders we stand today,
doctor Marcollino Dembrosio powerfully tells their stories in When the
Church was Young Voices of the Early Fathers. To receive
your copy of When the Church Was Young for yourself
(11:37):
or as a terrific gift to a friend or loved one,
simply call eight eight eight seven thousand croi and make
a gift to support CRI's life changing outreaches eight eight
eight seven thousand CROI or visit equip dot org. Anyone
(12:01):
who's been paying attention knows there's a war going on,
not just on traditional morality, civility, and decency, but even
more fundamentally on historic notions of truth. And the enemy
isn't just the onslaught of fake news, facilitated by a
post truth culture and turbocharged by growing legions of ideological spinductors.
(12:21):
Note the real enemies of truth range from postmodernist convictions
that there is no objective truth to militant scientism that
claims that only science can determine truth and religion is
little more than primitive superstitions. But CRI Support Team members
are not waving a white flag of surrender. They're holding
the fort by undergirding everyone of Christian Research Institute's mind
(12:45):
shaping and life changing outreaches twenty four to seven. To
learn how you can make a difference and enjoy all
the benefits of Support Team membership, simply visit equip dot org.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Do you ever wonder what the early Church was like?
In when the Church was young? Doctor Marcellino Dembrosio dusts
off dry theology and brings to life the lives of
early Church heroes Augustine Athanasius, Chrysystem, and many more. Long
before the words Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical referred to distinct
and separated communities, the fathers of the Church gloried in
(13:25):
one faith, the United Body of Christ, which can be
none other than Evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox. It's time to
rediscover our common inheritance and return to the days when
the Church was young. To experience new growth that will
produce new fruit, new unity and joy. To receive your
copy of when the Church was young voices of the
early fathers call eight eight eight seven thousand CRI and
(13:49):
make a gift to support the Christian Research institutes Life
Changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRII or visit
equip dot org. Hank Hannagraph has dedicated his life to
defending truth because truth matters. However, his life and ministry
were radically transformed by another three word phrase, Life matters more.
(14:13):
Truth matters because Christianity is rooted in history and evidence.
Life matters more because it.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Is the experience of union with God. The goal of
Christian life is union with God. All attempts to understand
Christianity from a solely rational perspective put us in danger
of devolving into a transactional rather than transformational relationship with God.
Truth Matters, Life Matters More will equip you to move
beyond intellectually knowing about God to experientially knowing Him in Christ.
(14:42):
To receive your copy of Truth Matters, Life Matters More.
Called eight eight eight seven thousand CRI, and make a
gift to support the Christian Research Institute's Life Changing outreaches
eight eight eight seven thousand CRI. Or visit us online
at equipp dot org.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Let's rejoin Hank Hanagraph and doctor Marcolino Dembrosio in their conversation.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
This letter by Clement was written probably about thirty to
four years later, and he's dealing with the same issue.
Some younger people have overthrown the established leaders of the
church called elders or bishops and had kind of taken over.
And Clement writes from Rome and he basically says, look,
first of all, it's not about exalting yourself. Christianity is
(15:35):
about laying your life down. It's being small. Humility is key,
and he sees at the root of disunity, pride and arrogance,
so he calls them firmly but gently as an elder brother.
He calls them to humility, putting unity before their own
ideas about what's best and what ought to happen. So
(15:56):
I think it's pretty interesting to watch makes this really
important point that leadership charisms are given by the spirit, sure,
but leadership of the community is something that really you
just can't make up. The apostles ordained men. They've set
people aside, and those people made sure that there was
an arrangement whereby they would hand on that authority, that
(16:20):
teaching authority, that pastoral authority. So we have here a
testimony to this idea of apostolic succession, an orderly succession,
personal succession of leadership in the church, because the church
is a family, and that family needs to have continuity.
It's not reconstituted every new generation, so to speak. It
has a heritage. So the very idea of tradition of
(16:42):
teaching and the handing on of leadership is something that
we see really clearly here. In this first letter, this
letter of Climate to the Corinthians.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You tell the most interesting story about how that letter
by Climate of Rome was part of Sunday worship for
several hundred years in places like alexand it was even
regarded as part of the New Testament. It was lost
to Christianity until the seventeenth century, and then it was found.
Interesting story about how it was found.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, it was part of a codex of the Bible,
which means a big volume of all the books put together,
and that was given to the King of England by
an Eastern patriarch, and that had the letter of Clement
in it. So this letter that had been forgotten was
in Greek, and most of the Church in the West
had lost the ability to read Greek. You know, for many,
(17:33):
many centuries there was no one reading Greek. Everyone was
reading only Latin. So anyway, this comes now it's original text,
original in the sense that it's not the one that's
signed by Clement necessarily, but it's the Greek text. Anyway,
it all of a sudden it's discovered to cause a sensation.
And I think it's important to point out that a
lot of these Apostolic fathers, we call them Apostolic fathers
(17:54):
because their lives overlapped the lives of the Apostles. So
it's possible. We're not sure, but it's possible the Clement
sat at the feet of Peter and Paul when he
was young. But in any event, we call them Apostolic
fathers in their really important link to the Apostles. But
we didn't have any of them at the time of
the Protestant Reformation. None of them were accessible to us.
(18:15):
We had nothing written before the year two hundred or so,
and so it's so wonderful to have this now to
get a glimpse of what the early church really looks like,
and how government worked and how preaching work. We see
the way preaching happens in a certain way because we
see that the Old Testament is primarily what Clement uses
rather than some of the letters that we're used to
(18:37):
from the New Testament. We see the Old Testament as
his primary source for teaching, and he gives it, of
course a spirit led Christian interpretation in light of the
Messiah and light of Jesus coming. But we see the
importance of Old Testament scripture in the life of the
church at the time of Clement. But we see so
many beautiful things that we just didn't have at the
(18:58):
time that so many church dividing positions were being taken
in the sixteenth century. So it seems to me it's
a tremendous resource to have Clement and others to be
able to go back and look at this together Catholic, Protestant,
Orthodox and kind of re examine the life of the
Early Church.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, when you read your section on Clement of Rome,
it sort of reads like a fast based novel. It's
just gripping. Ignacious of Antioch this is one of my
favorite Apostolic fathers. I mean the three that I love,
all three of them cited in your book, Clement of Rome,
Ignacious of Antioch, and Polycarpushmrna. But Ignacious of Antioch is
(19:36):
particularly interesting for so many reasons. Three hundred years after
Ignacius's death, Chrysostom described Ignacious as a soul seething with
divine eras. And he's one of the Apostolic fathers who
gave his all for the cause of Christ. He was martyred,
(19:58):
and the story of his martyred is a story that
is so incredibly gripping, particularly when he says that he
doesn't want the Early Church to interfere with his martyrdom.
He says, I'm voluntarily dying for God. If that is
you don't interfere, I plead with you do not do
(20:21):
to me an unseasonable kindness. Let me be fodder for
wild beasts. That is how I get to God. I
am God's wheat. I'm being ground by the teeth of
wild beasts to make a pure loaf for Christ. And
so here you have a man who marches literally to
(20:43):
his own martyrdom and doesn't want anybody to interfere in
the process. However, he's left as a legacy he.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Certainly has, you know, for those who don't know the story.
First of all, persecution in the early Roman Empire was
sporadic thing. It wasn't an empire wide thing for quite
a while. So a persecution broke out and Antioch he's captured.
The bishop has captured. He's too big of a fish
to die just for the amusement of the locals, So
(21:13):
he's sent to Rome to dive at the pleasure of
the emperor. So he's marched chained to a squad of
ten soldiers who abused him and were very crass and
crude and rough. But he had a walk all the
way from what's now the border of Lebanon and Turkey.
He had to walk all the way west and north
to the far northwestern section of Turkey, ancient Troy, where
(21:36):
he's put on a boat and he eventually makes his
way to Rome. But while he's walking through the western
coast of what's now Turkey, that's where there are some
amazing Christian communities that are of the Seven Churches of Revelation.
You have Smyrna, and you have Ephesus and many others.
Delegations from those churches come to visit him. There's no
persecution going on there at that time, so they they're
(21:58):
free to come visit him, and they kiss his changed
He blesses them, and then he writes letters back to
the whole church that they represented, and he writes seven letters,
one to Rome ahead of where he's going, but six
to the local churches. And it's his last shot to
give some teaching to these people and to fight against
heresy that is besetting them, to exhort them to holiness,
(22:21):
which is his own passion discipleship. So it's kind of
a beautiful window into the soul of an early bishop
and a martyr. And he just happens to be the
second bishop in succession to Peter Paul and Barnabas in Antioch,
so pretty important link to the Apostolic tradition.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
So often when we talk about Holy tradition, there's a
lot of pushback within the Body of Christ. And I
think it's important to talk about the significance of Holy
tradition because so often in my own career as host
of the Bible Lensmen broadcast, I've made exegetical arguments from
the Bible for why we worship on Sunday as opposed
(23:02):
to worshiping on Saturday. And you'll have people from the
Seventh day Admatist group or others that will push back
on this and say that worshiping on Sunday is taking
the mark of the Beast. And yet you don't have
to just make an exegetical argument. If you understand Holy tradition,
if you understand voices from the Early Church, you get
(23:25):
to make an argument from Holy tradition because you have
the practices of the Early Church being passed on from
the Apostolic Fathers through the Apologists, through the Holy Fathers
of the Church to every Eucharistic assembly throughout the land.
(23:45):
And therefore we have knowledge about how the Early Church operated,
and that knowledge informs us as well with respect to
why we worship on the first day of the week
in honor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think it's just really important for people to understand
that the Lord Jesus doesn't seem to have written anything.
You know, he accepted the sand, and for three years,
what was he doing. He was living with the disciples.
They were seeing things they are hard to put into writing. Actually,
I mean, they saw expression on his face, they heard
the tone in his voice, they watched things that they
(24:22):
picked up by in a certain way osmosis. They kind
of absorbed the impression of who Jesus was and what
he did. And certainly they remembered his words, which many
of which are now recorded in the Gospels, and certainly
their own teaching was modeled on his and flowed from his.
But interestingly enough, we don't have anything from the first Disciples,
(24:43):
the eyewitnesses for twenty years or so after the resurrection.
What were they doing. They were doing the same thing
as Jesus did. They lived with people. And the sacred
tradition really is the passing on in real life of
that whole reality all that Jesus, the Apostle, the Church
said and did and were. It's kind of like passed on,
(25:05):
and it's bigger than in prior to the New Testament writings,
and it was seen as a norm. In fact, in
Clement is exhorting the people of Corinth to end the
rebellion against the rightly appointed presbyters and bishops. He is
telling them that they need to submit to the rule.
And the word rule is canon of our sacred tradition,
(25:28):
which is fascinating. Even before the New Testament writings are
assembled together into a canon or a rule. You see Clement,
this one who is a successor of Peter and Paul
and Rome, saying, you know, you have to submit to
the rule of the life that's been passed on. That's
what tradition means, what's been handed over, that sacred trust
(25:48):
that's been handed over, and that's what really tradition is.
It's not just a few little extraneous practices. It's the
whole life of the church.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Thank you for listening to this special edition of the
Eyebil answer Man Broadcast with Hank Anagraph. To hear this
Hank Unplugged podcast interview with doctor Marcellino Dembrosio in its entirety,
go to equip dot org, iTunes or wherever you listen
to your favorite podcasts an appreciation for your vital gift
(26:18):
to help strengthen and expand the life changing outreaches of
the Christian Research Institute, Hank would like to send you
doctor Dembrosio's book When the Church Was Young Voices of
the Early Fathers. Simply call eight eight eight seven thousand
CRI and make a gift to support CRI's life changing
outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CROI or visit equip
(26:44):
dot org. The Bible answer Man Broadcast is funded by
listeners like you. We're on the air because truth matters
and life matters more. The number of wolves surrounding the
Christian flock is growing, and they relish nothing more than
(27:06):
docile's sheep, Utterly incapable of defending themselves from militant secularists
at home to militant Islamists abroad. The assaults on Biblical
Christianity are growing dangerously, but Christian Research Institutes Support Team
members aren't in favor of feeding these wolves. Instead, each
day they're making possible an array of outreaches that defang
(27:29):
these wolfpacks with solid arguments and evidence that have stood
the test of time. What's more, support team members are
equipping themselves with criis equipping Essentials, a handpicked collection of
the best apologetics tools around. Your selection of resources are
just our way of saying thanks. To learn more about
the benefits of membership, simply visit equip dot org. Once again,
(27:53):
that's equip dot org.
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. This
is the Bible answer Man Broadcast with Hank Canigraph. We're
on the air because truth matters and life matters. More.
On today's special edition of the Bible answer Man Broadcast,
we present a previously recorded episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast.
(00:28):
Hank's guest is doctor Marcillino Dembrosio, author of When the
Church Was Young Voices of the Early Fathers. Here now
is Hank Canigraph.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, Welcome to another edition of Hank Unplugged, the podcast
dedicated to bringing the most interesting, informative and inspirational people
directly to your earbuds. Today, I have an incredible guest.
His name is Marcellino Ambrosio and he is a world
(01:00):
renowned commentator on spiritual matters. What I love about Marchialino
is that he has a gift for taking the complex
and making it accessible. He's affectionately known as doctor Italy
and his many things to his credit, including being co
author of The Catch, this three million copy bestseller known
(01:27):
as The Guide to the Passion, the book that I
fell in love with, However, the book that I want
to really get into on this podcast is a book
titled When the Church Was Young subtitled Voices of the
Early Fathers. And this book is nothing short of gripping.
(01:49):
In fact, it's very, very difficult to put down. When
I first picked it up, I quite literally disrupted my schedule.
I went out and talked to one of my researchers,
and I kept reading him page after page after page.
And so I love this book. It's one of those
books you want to read again and again and again.
(02:12):
What I am particularly intoxicated by, I suppose, is that
this book underscores the common heritage of the faith once
for all, delivered to the Saints. You know, long before
the words Catholic and Orthodox and Evangelical were losed as
labels the Church of the Fathers, well, they glorified in
(02:37):
one faith, in one united body of Christ. And I
think by understanding our common heretance, the genuine Body of
Christ can move towards will, an answer to the Lord's
high priestly prayer, move towards unity around the essentials of
the common faith of faith that was hammered out in
(02:59):
the Council of Faith, that is codified in the Creeds. Well,
there's so much I'd like to say about Marchalino, but
you'll find out about him in the podcast. March Allino.
It is just wonderful having you on, Hank unplugged, Hank.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
It's a pleasure to be here, a pleasure. Indeed, thank
you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I love your book, and you know, as I was saying,
this is one of those books that takes us back
to our common inheritance, a time when we didn't have
the labels, the time in which the church was one.
And I suppose we ought to start the podcast out
by talking about how important unity is to Christ. Christ
(03:42):
emphasized unity in his high priestly prayer. He prayed that
we all might be as one, so that the world
might believe that you sent me in. So often when
I talk about oneness within the body of Christ, it
seems an impossible dream. And I suppose it's hard to
get back to the time when the church was one,
(04:04):
But I do think we have to work towards an
answer to the Lord's side priestly prayer, an answer of
unification around the essentials coudified in the Creeds and the councils.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, if we love Him, then we have to be
dedicated to what he prayed for in his last evening
of his life. And if we love the world, we
need to be dedicated to unity. Because without unity, it's
very hard for the world to recognize that Jesus was
sent by the Father. This is what Jesus says. And
so the stakes are really high. And I think all
(04:38):
too often we get bogged down in our own section
of the vineyard and forget this big issue, this big picture.
And I want to challenge everybody to just examine yourself.
You know, everyone who's listening, how often do you pray
for the unity of the Body of Christ? And what
have you done to build bridges? I think all of
(04:58):
us can be bridge built and all of us can
be intercessors, all of us can be instruments to unity.
And when you read the Fathers of the Church, you
realize how passionate these men were about unity.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and we're going to get to that later on
in the podcast. But to your point, I want to
read a quote I just opened my book, Truth Matters,
Life matters more than I have an epigraph by the
ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew who says this, there is a direct
link between the oneness of Christians after the image of
the Trinity and the missionary dimension of the Church. The
(05:36):
Church looks not inward but outward. It exists not for
the sake of itself, but for the sake of the
world's salvation. The Church as a mystery of mutual trinitarian
love is true to itself only if the circle of
love is being constantly enlarged, only if new persons are
(05:57):
continually being brought within it. The Triune God signifies that
we are, each of us missionaries dedicated to the preaching
of the Gospel. And so here you have the patriarch
an Istanbul or Constantinople talking about how important it is
(06:18):
to see ourselves unified, because unification of the Church ultimately
leads to the salvation of the world.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Amen. And it really proceeds from who God is. God
is three persons in one God. So the interpersonal unity
of God is the basis of all reality, and the
Church is meant to manifest that. And so it's such
a counter sign when we manifest squabbling and division and disunity.
(06:47):
You know, it's really a blot. It's a counter sign.
So anyway, it's really really important to be aware of
the gift of unity, to preserve it, to enlarge it,
to strengthen it, to recover it.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, and I think it's important and to point out,
as we talk about unity, we're not talking about keeping
the shell and throwing away the nut. We're talking about
unity around the essentials of the Christian faith, the faith
once for all delivered to the Saints, and that unity
is manifested in the councils and the creeds. And I
(07:19):
want to go through that, but let's start by sort
of walking through your book. You offer this fabulous chronology
the early Church Fathers. In writing about the voices of
the Early Church Fathers. We're talking about a period that
stretches from the voices of Jesus and the Apostles to
(07:40):
about the middle of the eighth century. So that's a
long period of time. But you break that time frame
into bite sized chunks and you start with the Apostolic
father So you have the Apostolic Fathers, you have the Apologists,
and then you have the Church Fathers. And we'll get
into all of that, but let's zoom in on three
(08:00):
Apostolic fathers that you highlight in the book. These are
fathers that I truly can say, I've fallen in love
with not only through reading your book, but just through
reading these fathers and knowing their testimonies. Some of them
were alive at the time of the Apostles, they had
contact with them, they learned from them. And I want
(08:23):
to begin with Clement of Rome. Clement of Rome died,
I guess somewhere towards the end of the first century,
but his life lives on, and if we know about
his life, his life had a tremendous impact on our
own lives.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Absolutely. Actually, in Rome there's a church of Saint Clement
that commemorates this man, and the church is fascinating because
it's a journey. As you go from the ground floor,
just Middle Ages, down to the next level, you have
a fourth century church there from the time of the
fathers like Athanasius, you know. But if you go deeper
(09:01):
there's a first century house church that's probably the home
of Clement. And so anyway, you know, I feel a
real connection with him, not only through his letter, but
through visiting that place in Rome. Very critical probably you know,
one of the earliest writings we have after the New Testament,
probably his letter is about ninety five AD. That's the
(09:21):
best guest that we have for it. But it gives
us a glimpse into challenges in the Church of corinth
a church founded by Paul. But also it gives us
an image into the Roman Church and its culture and
the way it praise, the way it lives. So it's
an awesome gift.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Well, what's so cool about starting with Clement of Rome
is that you and I were just talking about a
commitment to unity, and this was the very thing that
Clement of Rome was committed to. He said to divide
the church, just to do violence to Christ. So we
learn a lot early on about a church that was
unified and a church that was so dead set against
(10:04):
becoming divisive and having divisions within it. And yet in
history we find that that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yes, indeed, we see actually the calls letter to the Corinthians.
His first letter is dealing with factions and it's a
call to unity in Christ. And so we see this
letter by Clinic was written probably about forty thirty to
four years later, and he's dealing with the same issue.
Some younger people have overthrown the established leaders of the church,
(10:37):
called elders or bishops and had kind of taken over.
And Clement writes from Rome and and he basically says, look,
first of all, it's not about exalting yourself. Christianity is
about laying your life down. It's being small. Humility is key.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Don't go away, and just a few moments we'll rejoin
Hank Anagraph's conversation with doctor Marcollino Dembrosio, Sir Isaac Newton said,
if I have seen further, it is by standing on
the shoulders of giants. As Christians, we indeed stand on
the shoulders of giants. Unfortunately, many modern Christians barely know
(11:16):
the names of the early Church fathers. If you're curious
about these remarkable early Christians upon whose shoulders we stand today,
doctor Marcollino Dembrosio powerfully tells their stories in When the
Church was Young Voices of the Early Fathers. To receive
your copy of When the Church Was Young for yourself
(11:37):
or as a terrific gift to a friend or loved one,
simply call eight eight eight seven thousand croi and make
a gift to support CRI's life changing outreaches eight eight
eight seven thousand CROI or visit equip dot org. Anyone
(12:01):
who's been paying attention knows there's a war going on,
not just on traditional morality, civility, and decency, but even
more fundamentally on historic notions of truth. And the enemy
isn't just the onslaught of fake news, facilitated by a
post truth culture and turbocharged by growing legions of ideological spinductors.
(12:21):
Note the real enemies of truth range from postmodernist convictions
that there is no objective truth to militant scientism that
claims that only science can determine truth and religion is
little more than primitive superstitions. But CRI Support Team members
are not waving a white flag of surrender. They're holding
the fort by undergirding everyone of Christian Research Institute's mind
(12:45):
shaping and life changing outreaches twenty four to seven. To
learn how you can make a difference and enjoy all
the benefits of Support Team membership, simply visit equip dot org.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Do you ever wonder what the early Church was like?
In when the Church was young? Doctor Marcellino Dembrosio dusts
off dry theology and brings to life the lives of
early Church heroes Augustine Athanasius, Chrysystem, and many more. Long
before the words Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical referred to distinct
and separated communities, the fathers of the Church gloried in
(13:25):
one faith, the United Body of Christ, which can be
none other than Evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox. It's time to
rediscover our common inheritance and return to the days when
the Church was young. To experience new growth that will
produce new fruit, new unity and joy. To receive your
copy of when the Church was young voices of the
early fathers call eight eight eight seven thousand CRI and
(13:49):
make a gift to support the Christian Research institutes Life
Changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRII or visit
equip dot org. Hank Hannagraph has dedicated his life to
defending truth because truth matters. However, his life and ministry
were radically transformed by another three word phrase, Life matters more.
(14:13):
Truth matters because Christianity is rooted in history and evidence.
Life matters more because it.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Is the experience of union with God. The goal of
Christian life is union with God. All attempts to understand
Christianity from a solely rational perspective put us in danger
of devolving into a transactional rather than transformational relationship with God.
Truth Matters, Life Matters More will equip you to move
beyond intellectually knowing about God to experientially knowing Him in Christ.
(14:42):
To receive your copy of Truth Matters, Life Matters More.
Called eight eight eight seven thousand CRI, and make a
gift to support the Christian Research Institute's Life Changing outreaches
eight eight eight seven thousand CRI. Or visit us online
at equipp dot org.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Let's rejoin Hank Hanagraph and doctor Marcolino Dembrosio in their conversation.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
This letter by Clement was written probably about thirty to
four years later, and he's dealing with the same issue.
Some younger people have overthrown the established leaders of the
church called elders or bishops and had kind of taken over.
And Clement writes from Rome and he basically says, look,
first of all, it's not about exalting yourself. Christianity is
(15:35):
about laying your life down. It's being small. Humility is key,
and he sees at the root of disunity, pride and arrogance,
so he calls them firmly but gently as an elder brother.
He calls them to humility, putting unity before their own
ideas about what's best and what ought to happen. So
(15:56):
I think it's pretty interesting to watch makes this really
important point that leadership charisms are given by the spirit, sure,
but leadership of the community is something that really you
just can't make up. The apostles ordained men. They've set
people aside, and those people made sure that there was
an arrangement whereby they would hand on that authority, that
(16:20):
teaching authority, that pastoral authority. So we have here a
testimony to this idea of apostolic succession, an orderly succession,
personal succession of leadership in the church, because the church
is a family, and that family needs to have continuity.
It's not reconstituted every new generation, so to speak. It
has a heritage. So the very idea of tradition of
(16:42):
teaching and the handing on of leadership is something that
we see really clearly here. In this first letter, this
letter of Climate to the Corinthians.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You tell the most interesting story about how that letter
by Climate of Rome was part of Sunday worship for
several hundred years in places like alexand it was even
regarded as part of the New Testament. It was lost
to Christianity until the seventeenth century, and then it was found.
Interesting story about how it was found.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, it was part of a codex of the Bible,
which means a big volume of all the books put together,
and that was given to the King of England by
an Eastern patriarch, and that had the letter of Clement
in it. So this letter that had been forgotten was
in Greek, and most of the Church in the West
had lost the ability to read Greek. You know, for many,
(17:33):
many centuries there was no one reading Greek. Everyone was
reading only Latin. So anyway, this comes now it's original text,
original in the sense that it's not the one that's
signed by Clement necessarily, but it's the Greek text. Anyway,
it all of a sudden it's discovered to cause a sensation.
And I think it's important to point out that a
lot of these Apostolic fathers, we call them Apostolic fathers
(17:54):
because their lives overlapped the lives of the Apostles. So
it's possible. We're not sure, but it's possible the Clement
sat at the feet of Peter and Paul when he
was young. But in any event, we call them Apostolic
fathers in their really important link to the Apostles. But
we didn't have any of them at the time of
the Protestant Reformation. None of them were accessible to us.
(18:15):
We had nothing written before the year two hundred or so,
and so it's so wonderful to have this now to
get a glimpse of what the early church really looks like,
and how government worked and how preaching work. We see
the way preaching happens in a certain way because we
see that the Old Testament is primarily what Clement uses
rather than some of the letters that we're used to
(18:37):
from the New Testament. We see the Old Testament as
his primary source for teaching, and he gives it, of
course a spirit led Christian interpretation in light of the
Messiah and light of Jesus coming. But we see the
importance of Old Testament scripture in the life of the
church at the time of Clement. But we see so
many beautiful things that we just didn't have at the
(18:58):
time that so many church dividing positions were being taken
in the sixteenth century. So it seems to me it's
a tremendous resource to have Clement and others to be
able to go back and look at this together Catholic, Protestant,
Orthodox and kind of re examine the life of the
Early Church.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, when you read your section on Clement of Rome,
it sort of reads like a fast based novel. It's
just gripping. Ignacious of Antioch this is one of my
favorite Apostolic fathers. I mean the three that I love,
all three of them cited in your book, Clement of Rome,
Ignacious of Antioch, and Polycarpushmrna. But Ignacious of Antioch is
(19:36):
particularly interesting for so many reasons. Three hundred years after
Ignacius's death, Chrysostom described Ignacious as a soul seething with
divine eras. And he's one of the Apostolic fathers who
gave his all for the cause of Christ. He was martyred,
(19:58):
and the story of his martyred is a story that
is so incredibly gripping, particularly when he says that he
doesn't want the Early Church to interfere with his martyrdom.
He says, I'm voluntarily dying for God. If that is
you don't interfere, I plead with you do not do
(20:21):
to me an unseasonable kindness. Let me be fodder for
wild beasts. That is how I get to God. I
am God's wheat. I'm being ground by the teeth of
wild beasts to make a pure loaf for Christ. And
so here you have a man who marches literally to
(20:43):
his own martyrdom and doesn't want anybody to interfere in
the process. However, he's left as a legacy he.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Certainly has, you know, for those who don't know the story.
First of all, persecution in the early Roman Empire was
sporadic thing. It wasn't an empire wide thing for quite
a while. So a persecution broke out and Antioch he's captured.
The bishop has captured. He's too big of a fish
to die just for the amusement of the locals, So
(21:13):
he's sent to Rome to dive at the pleasure of
the emperor. So he's marched chained to a squad of
ten soldiers who abused him and were very crass and
crude and rough. But he had a walk all the
way from what's now the border of Lebanon and Turkey.
He had to walk all the way west and north
to the far northwestern section of Turkey, ancient Troy, where
(21:36):
he's put on a boat and he eventually makes his
way to Rome. But while he's walking through the western
coast of what's now Turkey, that's where there are some
amazing Christian communities that are of the Seven Churches of Revelation.
You have Smyrna, and you have Ephesus and many others.
Delegations from those churches come to visit him. There's no
persecution going on there at that time, so they they're
(21:58):
free to come visit him, and they kiss his changed
He blesses them, and then he writes letters back to
the whole church that they represented, and he writes seven letters,
one to Rome ahead of where he's going, but six
to the local churches. And it's his last shot to
give some teaching to these people and to fight against
heresy that is besetting them, to exhort them to holiness,
(22:21):
which is his own passion discipleship. So it's kind of
a beautiful window into the soul of an early bishop
and a martyr. And he just happens to be the
second bishop in succession to Peter Paul and Barnabas in Antioch,
so pretty important link to the Apostolic tradition.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
So often when we talk about Holy tradition, there's a
lot of pushback within the Body of Christ. And I
think it's important to talk about the significance of Holy
tradition because so often in my own career as host
of the Bible Lensmen broadcast, I've made exegetical arguments from
the Bible for why we worship on Sunday as opposed
(23:02):
to worshiping on Saturday. And you'll have people from the
Seventh day Admatist group or others that will push back
on this and say that worshiping on Sunday is taking
the mark of the Beast. And yet you don't have
to just make an exegetical argument. If you understand Holy tradition,
if you understand voices from the Early Church, you get
(23:25):
to make an argument from Holy tradition because you have
the practices of the Early Church being passed on from
the Apostolic Fathers through the Apologists, through the Holy Fathers
of the Church to every Eucharistic assembly throughout the land.
(23:45):
And therefore we have knowledge about how the Early Church operated,
and that knowledge informs us as well with respect to
why we worship on the first day of the week
in honor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think it's just really important for people to understand
that the Lord Jesus doesn't seem to have written anything.
You know, he accepted the sand, and for three years,
what was he doing. He was living with the disciples.
They were seeing things they are hard to put into writing. Actually,
I mean, they saw expression on his face, they heard
the tone in his voice, they watched things that they
(24:22):
picked up by in a certain way osmosis. They kind
of absorbed the impression of who Jesus was and what
he did. And certainly they remembered his words, which many
of which are now recorded in the Gospels, and certainly
their own teaching was modeled on his and flowed from his.
But interestingly enough, we don't have anything from the first Disciples,
(24:43):
the eyewitnesses for twenty years or so after the resurrection.
What were they doing. They were doing the same thing
as Jesus did. They lived with people. And the sacred
tradition really is the passing on in real life of
that whole reality all that Jesus, the Apostle, the Church
said and did and were. It's kind of like passed on,
(25:05):
and it's bigger than in prior to the New Testament writings,
and it was seen as a norm. In fact, in
Clement is exhorting the people of Corinth to end the
rebellion against the rightly appointed presbyters and bishops. He is
telling them that they need to submit to the rule.
And the word rule is canon of our sacred tradition,
(25:28):
which is fascinating. Even before the New Testament writings are
assembled together into a canon or a rule. You see Clement,
this one who is a successor of Peter and Paul
and Rome, saying, you know, you have to submit to
the rule of the life that's been passed on. That's
what tradition means, what's been handed over, that sacred trust
(25:48):
that's been handed over, and that's what really tradition is.
It's not just a few little extraneous practices. It's the
whole life of the church.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Thank you for listening to this special edition of the
Eyebil answer Man Broadcast with Hank Anagraph. To hear this
Hank Unplugged podcast interview with doctor Marcellino Dembrosio in its entirety,
go to equip dot org, iTunes or wherever you listen
to your favorite podcasts an appreciation for your vital gift
(26:18):
to help strengthen and expand the life changing outreaches of
the Christian Research Institute, Hank would like to send you
doctor Dembrosio's book When the Church Was Young Voices of
the Early Fathers. Simply call eight eight eight seven thousand
CRI and make a gift to support CRI's life changing
outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CROI or visit equip
(26:44):
dot org. The Bible answer Man Broadcast is funded by
listeners like you. We're on the air because truth matters
and life matters more. The number of wolves surrounding the
Christian flock is growing, and they relish nothing more than
(27:06):
docile's sheep, Utterly incapable of defending themselves from militant secularists
at home to militant Islamists abroad. The assaults on Biblical
Christianity are growing dangerously, but Christian Research Institutes Support Team
members aren't in favor of feeding these wolves. Instead, each
day they're making possible an array of outreaches that defang
(27:29):
these wolfpacks with solid arguments and evidence that have stood
the test of time. What's more, support team members are
equipping themselves with criis equipping Essentials, a handpicked collection of
the best apologetics tools around. Your selection of resources are
just our way of saying thanks. To learn more about
the benefits of membership, simply visit equip dot org. Once again,
(27:53):
that's equip dot org.
Popular Podcasts
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.