December 16, 2024 • 38 mins
In this heartfelt episode of Covering Your Health, host Evelyn Erives sits down with Sandy Wyman, Vice President of Mission at Inland Empire Health Plan, to discuss the challenging topic of grief during the holiday season. Sandy shares her expert insights on how to navigate the emotional complexities of loss, offering practical advice and compassionate support for those who are grieving.
Together, they explore strategies to honor loved ones, find moments of joy, and seek support during this difficult time. Whether you're experiencing grief yourself or supporting someone who is, this episode provides valuable guidance to help you through the holidays and beyond.
For more information on this show's topic visit IEHP.org or (800) 440-IEHP.
Reach out to Evelyn via Instagram @evelynerives or email her at EvelynErives@iHeartMedia.com
Together, they explore strategies to honor loved ones, find moments of joy, and seek support during this difficult time. Whether you're experiencing grief yourself or supporting someone who is, this episode provides valuable guidance to help you through the holidays and beyond.
For more information on this show's topic visit IEHP.org or (800) 440-IEHP.
Reach out to Evelyn via Instagram @evelynerives or email her at EvelynErives@iHeartMedia.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Covering Your Health
with EVELYNI Reves, presented by iehp Oh my Gosh, Season two,
Episode two. Here we are all ready to go now.
You know I love the holidays, but I have to
tell you when you get to the holidays.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
For some this is.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
A very, very challenging time in people's lives, including myself.
It can stir up a lot of emotions, especially for
those who just recently lost a loved one or are
still coping with some sort of loss. So let's face it,
there are little things in our daily lives that remind
us of those things that we lost, the people, the
(00:41):
animals and such. Yet during the holidays, grief can sometimes
sneak up on you right or hit you the hardest.
Maybe some of those favorite holiday traditions, watching a movie
decorating the tree reminds you of those who aren't physically
here anymore, and that grief and well, we need to
navigate that, don't we. That's why we brought in the
(01:02):
perfect person to help with that. Today we're joined by
Sandy Wyman, vice President of Mission at inlann Empire Health Plan,
who is going to help us talk about how we
can navigate the grieving process during the holidays. Sandy comes
to the conversation with decades.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I mean, wait till you hear her story.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Decades of experience as a critical care nurs chaplain and
a mission coach. So we have quite the expert on
hand to talk through a very complex subject. I know
that you'll benefit from I know ow I'm going to
benefit from this, and I hope you will too.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Welcome to Covering your Health, a wellness podcast dedicated to
covering all areas of living a healthy and happy lifestyle,
from healthy hearts to understanding health plans and everything in between.
Each episode will provide you with a better understanding of
managing your health, preventative care, and staying on the right
path for your family's wellness journey. The Covering Your Health
(01:57):
podcast is presented by i EhP now your host, evil
In Revez.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Okay, well let's get started. Hi, Sandy, how are you?
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I'm doing well, Evelyn, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'm good, Thank you so much for joining me. So excited.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So this is episode two of our new season. So
I'm really really blessed because we had a whole full
season of amazing stuff and we're already starting off with
a bang, and very happy to have you here. I
want to talk a little bit about you and your background.
I love to get a little insight or how did
you find yourself in this line of work?
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Sure, you know I've probably in one way or another,
been in this line of work since I was four
or five years old. It seems like I've always been
drawn to people or creatures who are suffering in times
of crisis or sadness or grief. And then of course
decided to take nursing going into college, and so the
(03:00):
roles that I've had, and again what I've done have
really been in deepening a sense of the joy of
serving others, fostering hope, meaning purpose in the work and
in the organization, and just kind of a focus on healing.
There can't always be a cure, but there can always
be healing and bringing people hope.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
What is it do you think when you were so
young that was there a situation that happened for you
or was it just a nurturing ability you had right away?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
You know, I come from a line of ministers in
our faith tradition and fortunately just really healthy faith tradition
in terms of our family, which is a heart for service,
so family stories and legacy, and had grandparents who are
missionaries in Burma, India and so forth, and so I
(03:57):
grew up on these stories of courage and faith and
service yea, and loving others through what we do. But
probably the first I remember, the first time I experienced
just such sadness was putting down our dog Fife when
I was five and she had hepatitis and she'd fall
over all the time. And I went with my dad
(04:19):
to the events, and while I didn't go in, I
stayed in the in the waiting room. We stayed in
the waiting room. It was just I remember having a
lot of thoughts about that as a little person, and
just I don't know, I've just always had, you know,
the meaning of the of the name Sandra, which is
my you know, given name is helper of mankind. So
(04:41):
there's no pressure there to show up in that way.
But that's really kind of been my life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's impressive. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And that's funny that you look that up to see,
because you know what is funny. Our families do things
to us, right, they inspire things and as they change
our path. You're started with a name you didn't even know.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Yeah, that's right, that's right. I think as a teenager
when I look that up and I said, well, that
resonates with how I feel inside and who I want
to be.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And family stories, you know, especially with your grandparents' story
and and all of that.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's in your blood.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
It really is very true. Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Well okay, so let's talk about your role at IHP
and its mission to help serve not just as as
you know, the health plan members, but the entire region.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
How do you do that? Tell me a little bit.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
About right right, Well, you know, we've had I've had
this role for a couple of years. I've been at
IHP for five years. All of my career has really
been on the acute side of healthcare, so hospitals or
health systems. I've been a critical care and nurse and
specialty and palliative care and hospice. I've been a chaplain
for years. I'm a credential coach, but the last many
(05:59):
years have been in leader ship roles for mission integration,
organizational culture, some leadership development, and so coming to IHP
our phenomenal CEO, Jared McNaughton has such a heart for
people and for serving the underserved and so forth, and
really wanted to establish more intentionally a mission minded focus
(06:26):
and values based work that we do. HP has always
been a phenomenal place with a strong sense of mission.
In its twenty eight years, it's had this mantor of
doing the right thing. You know. We serve one point
five million members and contract with over eight thousand providers
and forty two hospitals. And I was amazed when I
came first of all, didn't realize how complex and multi
(06:49):
layered a health plan is, but very impressed at IHP
with people's sense of calling and purpose and dedication to
this work. And many of our employe we're IHP members
and so then they come back and they give back.
So this in our work. I have four mission coaches
(07:09):
who work with me. I hired them in and we
title that. A couple of them are clinicians. We work
with leaders and teams and even externally with our community
business partners and with providers or hospitals who are interested
in strengthening their cultures of mission and lived values in
the organization. People are especially coming out of the pandemic,
(07:32):
but have always been in healthcare hungry to come back
to remembering what brought them to this work and to
retread their tires and to help cultivate resilience. And that's
what we do.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Man, that is a big undertaking. For the record, like
that is a lot. I feel like that's even more
added pressure on you post pandemic because the of the
sense of need right for the sense to center again.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Totally, yes, yes see, I'm glad you used that word center.
We kind of come from a concept. You know, our
mission statement is we heal and inspire the human spirit,
and then we talk about a center for the human spirit,
which is really our heart and working from our heart.
And so yeah, I like your use of that word center.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I feel like it was the right thing just based
on what you said.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Go, well, now, how did you get involved in this
line of work as a critical care nurse prior? We
all know that grief is never easy, but you took
it a step further and we're a chaplain.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I had about ten years as an ICU nurse. Some
of those two or three years were working in the
emergency department, so I was working right at the bedside
and close with patients and families who are experiencing trauma
and crisis life change. You know, grief is really living
in the disparity of how it is and how we
would like it to be. And so people would come
(08:59):
in of the hospital and not only some of them
experience the end of their life and so walking with
families through that, but also just loss of hopes and
dreams and life changing because of surgeries and accidents and
illnesses and so forth. And so grief is universal, and
(09:21):
I just was somehow again naturally drawn to people experiencing that,
and you'd see me off in the corner sort of
sitting with the family and having those kind of conversations,
how is this impacting your life, how are you doing,
what kind of resources do you have, and so forth.
So I along about nineteen ninety three before I decided
(09:47):
to take chaplaincy, I lost my middle child, my seven
year old son, Trevor, to an inoperable brain tumor. Oh
my goodness, And so I was finally sort of on
the at that point I'd only lost too maybe very
elderly grandparents, and it was just a nice benediction at the
end of their life. But Trevor had never even been sick,
and he just was just so loving and thoughtful and kind.
(10:10):
I was looking forward to seeing who he'd be when
he grew up. But going through that experience, which was
such a crucible, felt very called to chaplaincy to be
able to spend more dedicated time with people really exploring
meaning and hope and purpose and spirituality and people of
(10:34):
all faiths or none. And that's kind of how I
how I began to move into those spaces.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Wow, Oh my gosh, Well, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I know that that those are those are wounds that
don't heal, you know, those are things that stay with
you forever and ever. Let's talk about grief. You obviously
have been there yourself. What is the nature of grief?
What are the key concepts that you want us.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
To Yeah, good question. So, first of all, grief is
universal and it's natural, and it's necessary to heal. We
must feel and so it's not an illness to get
over or a problem to solve, and it's actually something
we can't really go around because we'll carry it with us.
(11:21):
It'll show up as illness or disease later in our life,
or high blood pressure or what have you, because we
hurt much, because we love much, so I mean to
live any other way, we'd have to be rocks and stones, right,
So it's natural, it's necessary. None of us experience it
in the same way. Men and women experience it generally
(11:44):
quite differently, and no one can ever know what someone
else is experiencing. I could meet a mother who lost
a son from the same kind of brain tumor, who
was the same age and died on the same day
of the same month, and I don't have a clue
how she feels.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Oh. Absolutely, So it's so.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Important for people to know that, because one of the
least helpful things we say to people when they're grieving
is I understand how you feel. So we can say
I understand what it was for me, but I can't
imagine what it must be like for you, right, yeah,
and and and so you know, we lay a lot
(12:23):
of expectations on each other and on people on how
to move through it. But unless you're still in your
robe and not eating and have isolated, you know, six
months later, every other way to move through it is normal.
Some people move through it, and it's more challenging because
grief is layered on. There may be many losses. We
(12:47):
saw that through COVID. We had one of our editors
that works in marketing at IHP lost nine family members
to COVID in five months.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
He said, Sandy, next thinks giving half of our family
will be around the table. So there's such a thing
as complicated grief, and one of the ways that takes
place is again just layered on over time. There's something
called disenfranchised grief, where there are griefs that are not
publicly sanctioned, socially sanctioned. People feel like they have to
(13:20):
keep it to themselves, and that just adds on to
the weight right that that people carry. So whether it
gets integrated eventually as a strength and wisdom or maybe
as a bitterness over time, has everything to do with
the story we tell ourselves about what it is, the
meaning that we give it, and the support that we seek.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
You hit on one thing specifically that resonated with me.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
When you see someone going through something and you want,
you instantly want to turn it into something that you've
felt before, right that you felt. So when you say
things like you know, I know how you're feeling, it
just credits how they're feeling that's right, right.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
That's right. We want so much to we mean well,
people mean right.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah, I think again. I don't think it's on purpose anything.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
No, No, they really do mean well, but they but
the things we say often tend to help, want to
make us feel more comfortable.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
And so the thing is the person who is grieving,
for example, people are afraid to say the name of
the one who died. Well, the person who's grieving thinks
about it all the time, and they often would like someone,
you know, to just say, you know, I'm here if
you want to talk. The best. One of the things
(14:44):
is probably doesn't work well is to ask people when
they're in the throes of grief, let me know what
you need. You know, people don't know what they need.
They're overwhelmed, they're in early stages of just trying to
adjust to the reality of it, and so we don't
want to put that burden on.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Then.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
I had about eight ladies from our church who broke in,
if you will, to our house about four weeks after
Trevor died, found all of our bills and paid everything.
Oh my god, you know, rather than ask, I would
never have told them to do that or ever you know,
been able to answer in that way, but it was
so helpful, and so you know, the best thing is
(15:25):
to just simply strike out and do something. If it's
invasive or not helpful, the person will let you know.
But it just feels good to know that people are wanting,
you know, to be to be of help. Or sometimes
we make statements like, well, if I, in fact, if
I had a nickel for every time people had said
to me, Sandy, at least you have two other children.
(15:45):
Oh no, as if if you had a hundred children,
that would be a comforting.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Come in my goodness again.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Meaning well, but any time we say at least anyway,
we've just diminished you know, everything that came before really
their right to feel, or the word should right, or
things like you'll strong, you're strong, you know you'll move
through this, or or so many others have experienced this too,
(16:13):
or some people spiritualize it and it's not time to
do that when the grief is raw and so forth.
So you know, silence is sometimes the best gift we
give people just to come alongside and cry with them,
and you know.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, and just be there and just and just and
just sit there sit in it with them.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, we've heard many times there are stages to grief.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
What are some of those stages?
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting when Elizabeth Koobler Ross many
years ago identified these five stages. They were actually meant
to be for the active dying process when we come
to the end of our life, and somehow they got
converted into the grieving process. So yeah, they're not linear,
they're circular, and we pass through them a lot, especially
(17:05):
in the first year, with anniversaries and with so forth,
and so we most of us have heard. We begin
with shock and disbelief. I mean, it's just like being
in an earthquake and total disbelief. You can't get your
mind around it. And sometimes I'll hear people say, well,
you know, it's been four weeks and my sister's just
(17:27):
in denial, and I say, no, you know, you can
maybe name something denial six months from now, but not
right now. She's in shock and disbelief and trying to
get your mind around, you know, what's taking place. Then
there's anger, and then we come to discouragement. Sometimes people
call that depression. It may or maybe over time in
(17:50):
months and months and months it can become clinical depression,
but we're just sad and we have a right to
be sad for as long as we're sad. And then
there's sort of stage that was about bargaining, sort of
whether it's with God or whomever, just say, if you
do this, then I'll do that, or I promise I'll
always if dot dot dot right, yeah, and then we
(18:11):
come to a place of acceptance, which really is just
moving into the reality. For me, for example, with my son,
after about four or five six weeks, it was like, oh,
he's really not gone to summer camp. He's really not
here right, And it's just accepting the reality. Now. What
I love is that David Kessler k E S s
(18:32):
l E R. And you can go to his website
great resource, and he's got courses that people can take,
and he has a support group people can be a
part of. But he wrote a book that came out
a couple of years ago called Meaning the Sixth Stage
of Grief. And he was actually a protege and a
colleague of Elizabeth Koobler Ross And we've heard him on
(18:54):
lots of talk shows and things. He's really brilliant, and
so that sixth Stage of grief is meaning. And I
wrote myself a note here so I could say this, right,
it's it's that in time we find personal purpose and
hope and a way to bless others out of our
experience and help them find meaning. What he says is
(19:14):
each person's grief is as unique as their fingerprint. But
what everyone has in common is that no matter how
they grieve, they share a need for their grief to
be witnessed. I love that. And that doesn't mean needing
someone to try and fix it or reframe it or
lessen it for them. It's the need for someone to
be fully present to the magnitude of their loss, without
(19:36):
judging it or trying to put a silver lining around it.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, I really like that.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
I do too.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah. Yeah, And that also could be, you know, the
meaning could also be those support groups that you see
for so many people.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
That's fact years later.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, you know, that kind of other way of finding
you know for sure what you've gone through into action.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Yeah, And I wouldn't ever want people to think that,
you know, there's an expectation that everyone ought to find
a support group or what have you. Different ways of
healing are for different people. The important thing is that
we don't just try to lock it and stuff it away.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Now.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Men tend to process their grief more internally and more quietly.
They might go out and shoot acheen holes of golf
with three buddies and never say a word, but it's
therapeutic for them. Women tend to Those are big generalizations,
but women tend to process in relationship and relationally, so
(20:40):
with friends or whoever, and to talk about it. Right.
And so if we can just give each other a
lot of grace in our marriages and partnerships when we
experience grief, because we will do it differently.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, each one of us. No couple's going to be
the same either, no process. Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
What are some of the myths associated with grief?
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Oh, that's a great question, because they certainly are there.
Probably one of them that comes to mind is that
people just need to get over it. They need to
get over there, you know, suck it up. Not that
everyone would be cruel enough to say suck it up.
But there is no standard time for getting over it.
(21:23):
There's only moving through it because it's part of life.
And then working, I like to say, working it into
the soil of our life over time, so out of
that grows beautiful things for ourselves and for others, and
that people have a right to be sad for as
long as they're sad. Another one is that tears are
a sign of weakness.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Oh yeah, a big.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
That's a myth. And so tears are really about feelings
we just don't have words for, and they carry out toxins.
They have a physiological purpose in our life. And so
sometimes boys in our culture and different cultures are cultured
not to cry. That's not being a man. But nothing
could be farther from the truth. They've just kind of
(22:07):
been cultured and raised that way. But tears are they matter.
Another one is that the griever again feels greater sadness
when we talk about it. And that's another that's another
myth because again most people are thinking about it every day,
and the best thing is to ask people and say
(22:28):
what's most helpful and comforting for you? Would you like
to talk about this or does it fit more for
you right now? To not talk about it because I
want to be helpful, right and just simply ask people
is so good. Another myth is that if someone's grieving,
the best thing to do is leave them alone. So
(22:50):
we don't want to bombard people, but we don't want
to withdraw either just a card or a text or
a brief phone call kind of lets them know we're
thinking of a and like I said, just strike out
and do something. And the other myth is that time
heals all wounds. There's nothing magic about time. Actually, it's
(23:13):
what we do with the time and how we move
through it. And maybe the last one I'd mentioned is
I've heard people say, well, you can't really help anyone
in grief. They just have to grieve, and I say, yes,
yes you can. What helps the most is not explanation,
but consolation. People just need love with skin on it,
(23:37):
Frank Clay. They need to know that someone will stay
and will care without trying to fix it or judge
it or make it seem like it's something that's wrong
with people. And again, our silent presence is almost always
the best thing we can get.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, yeah, I like that You talked about the physiological
part of tears, right, there's actually a benefit.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yes, you get rid of tuxins.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So what are other ways that grief impacts us physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Yeah, Well, for any of us who've exp and of course,
remember there are many kinds of grief, right, and many
kinds of loss, right, So not only the loss through death,
there's a loss of health and hopes and dreams and
pets and relationships and so forth, and sometimes even getting
married and having kids. There's still grief in that because
(24:34):
you're having to release something and say goodbye to one chapter,
right to move into and form a new story and
a new chapter. There's some grieving involved in that. But
when we think of the loss particularly that's most profound,
through losing each other and losing someone dear to us,
or even a pet, I mean physically all these things
(24:55):
you've mentioned. Grief is very draining, so lots of lots
of fatigue. It can affect our appetite, affect our sleep,
our energy level, our uh, just our interest in in
doing things for a while. I caution people who have
a faith community that people not coming to church after
(25:18):
after a loss in their life is not a lack
of faith. They're exhausted, right, and so just make sure
and offer gently what you can. Send them a card,
let them know you're thinking of them. But there shouldn't
be any expectations of how people need to be and
show up during that time. Emotionally, I mean we we
(25:44):
nothing like grief invites us to ask life's deeper questions.
You know, what's it all about? What does it mean?
Where's God? And all of this? Spiritually we wrestle or
whoever that whatever our tradition is, what have I done?
Am I being punished?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Being?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I've heard that being punished.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
I can't tell you as a chaplain how many times
I heard people say that from their from their beds,
And it just broke my heart, and I just thought,
who taught you that? You know? The higher power is?
You know, look watch watching policing us to find ways
to get do a gotcha? You know, in our life
it's just very very sad. But emotionally there you're all
(26:27):
over the page. And so you're up one day, down
the next. You're laughing one day and feeling guilty about it.
And then you're driving your car and a song comes
on the radio and you have had to do this
and pull pull off to the side of the road
and just and just cry. Yeah, which is perfectly all
right and good to do. But wait, grief is comes
(26:48):
in waves of an ocean. There's no like time and
and sometimes seem seemingly reason to it. It just comes
when it comes, and it's good to let it sort
of do that. So there's long lists of things that
we can experience in all the ways you mentioned, and
they're all normal. They all tend to pass with gentleness
(27:11):
and compassion for ourselves and support and time. If they
linger over a long period of time, I think people
should probably watch their loved ones who are grieving and friends,
but for themselves, seek professional help. If they don't feel
good about themselves, if they just seem constantly out of control,
(27:32):
stressed out, foggy headed for weeks and weeks on end.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I'm talking about very serious, that's right.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
If they fear harming themselves or others, if they have
repeated losses in their life, it's probably good to find
a good counselor to talk with just to help sort
those through. And if they continually seek comfort in alcohol, drugs,
other potentially harmful activities, it feels like an escape for
(28:01):
a time, and it numbs the feelings which are all there.
They don't go away, and it just compounds the issue
because now you've got that, and if the support of
wise friends and family is not enough or if people
are isolating themselves, that's what we want to look out for,
especially over a protracted period of time.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah. Yeah, we could talk forever about this.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I feel like we could talk for hours about it,
but you kind of brought it up. The next thing
I was going to ask, what should people do if
is their professional help go to resources available grief counselors,
you know, is something The first thing that comes to
my mind. What kind of resources I know, IHP, if
we have some of those resources as well, will you
(28:46):
speak to that.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Our behavioral health and member facing departments at IHP are
able to direct people to resources in the community. Lots
of online resources. I mentioned one of them, David Kessler.
You can look up grief Share, which may be a
little more leaning toward people with faith traditions, but there
(29:13):
is so much available. There are tons of books now
that you just go on Amazon and there are some
very good books on grief and working through grief. Another
author who was a longtime friend and has since passed
is H. Norman Wright. R. W. R Ight wrote probably
twenty five books on grief and loss, and before that
(29:35):
was a marriage and family therapist, and so there's a
lot of ways in which to do that. Seek out
trusted friends, and make sure you're surrounding yourself with people
who are positive, who love you, who care for you genuinely,
and are not laying a lot of expectations and shoulds
on you. You don't need that at this time. Make
(29:59):
sure you're getting lock of sleep and drinking a lot
of water, because grieving is dehydrating. So do the things
that nurture and strengthen you. Time and nature, music that
nurtures you. Taking a hot bath, journaling, getting a massage
is really helpful. And just you know, let your memories
(30:19):
over time, let your memories be a source of comfort.
Love never dies. There's a quote that I love that
says death can never take away more than love leaves behind. Oh,
it's just a lot that we get to keep right. Yeah,
And so the task of grieving is really sorting through
what am I saying goodbye to because you never say
(30:41):
goodbye to the person or the relationship. But for example,
with Trevor my son, it was maybe three or four
months after. It can be helpful. Someone suggested I read
writing a goodbye letter, not write away at all, but
it was just goodbye to the things we can no
longer do, Like he learned how to ride his bike
in the cemetery where he's now buried, right, and so
(31:05):
goodbye to doing that, Goodbye to making cookies together, goodbye
to you know, catching bugs and you know, but not
goodbye to the relationship. You're just releasing what can no
longer be. But you are absolutely holding forever in your heart,
and you'll find that the relationship and the memories continue
(31:27):
to grow, actually over time.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Oh, you're making me emotional, like I literally my eyes.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Well, that's just because you have a heart.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I was just thinking, you know, like with with loss,
grief is so different for everybody, and you're right, it
comes in waves. And when you said the quote, that
quote like struck a chord with me because it is
so true how love endures.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
It just does. It lives on forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And I think about my grandma all the time, and
I think about how I see her sometimes and I,
you know, and I and it makes me laugh because
I didn't grieve right away with her.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yes, I was, yeah, really sad, but I didn't grieve
right away.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
And now I sometimes find myself grieving years later, which is.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
So beautiful, but it really is. What it is is
a flavor of loving, yeah, and not you're just missing her,
right and missing what can no longer be. And that's
what grief is. But it is not again, it's not
something to get over. It's just part of loving.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Well, you know, it's so funny, Andrew Garfield. I don't
know if you saw that online with Elmo, Oh my goodness,
and he sort of said something to that that was
just so heartbreakingly sweet, like it was.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
You know, at least I miss her and that makes me.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Happy because I have that I had that kind of
relationship with her that I get to think about all
of them, those moments again, I love that.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
And if I can add one thing to that, the
only thing I caution people is that sometimes people feel
as if the only way they can connect with their
loved when they're missing is in a place of pain.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Oh true.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah, So we can almost choose to stay in pain
and suffering and a depleted state, right, And that's different
than missing just missing someone right and remembering and loving
and I mean and making make anniversaries. So on Trevor's birthday,
(33:36):
I fix his favorite foods. I have chicken nuggets, cherry pie,
broccoli and French fries. I love right and often a
couple times we've I've planted a tree somewhere and his
memory and you know, so take these, take some anniversary
times and mark them in time and have them become
a tradition. And especially if you have other children, the
(34:00):
most challenging thing is I have my my oldest was.
I have a son who was ten at that time,
and Trevor was seven and my daughter was two. Wow,
And I will tell you it took me nine months,
almost a year before I could take pictures of the
family because Trevor, Trevor was missing and it wasn't whole.
And then you want to be careful that the person
(34:22):
who died that somehow they're there, they don't overshadow everyone
else in the family who's here. Yeah, right, And especially
other children. They need a year old there today and.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Riab grieving in their own ways.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
And grieving in their way too. So you have to
invest in them and for children, keep their routines as
much as possible and just remind them of how much
you love them. And kids take for the most part,
under eight seven years of age, they take their cues
from the adults and as to how safe everything is.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
So yeah, oh my gosh, Well this has been such
a powerful episode.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
You're so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
You speak so eloquently about everything, all of this with
such great grace and such great information. I have another Well,
I want to wrap this up because I want to
take too much more of your time, But I have
a question for you. I always like to end our
podcast with three key takeaways? Can you give me three
(35:29):
key takeaways that we can we can utilize today or
utilize down the road, you know, maybe have as a utility.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
That's a beautiful practice that you have. I love that.
I think that Probably number one would be compassion for
yourself is where it all starts. We tend to connect
to the life and other people to the extent we're
connected to the life and ourselves. So, you know, so
(36:02):
be your own best friend and be compassionate. Yeah, be
your own best friend. And what does that look like,
because sometimes our self talk isn't that way? That's true,
Let's see. Probably number two would be there's no right
way to move through grief. There can be healthier ways
(36:24):
over time, but no right way, and that everyone experiences
it differently, So lots of grace for yourself, a lot
of grace for others, and then just really lean on
trusted positive people in your life and spaces and learn
to learn the blessing of receiving. I know, oftentimes for
(36:44):
women who are grieving, they're so used to giving and
pouring into other people and taking care of the family
emotionally and all the rest, and sometimes we're not as
good as women at receiving. But this is a time
for receiving. Let others do for you. They need the
blessing of giving to you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And I'm going to also add to my little tool
belt here the words.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Not to use, the at least and the shoulds. We're
not using those words.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Yeah, we could almost take those out of the English language.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
And you are totally right.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Why do I need to use the word at least,
the words at least, Really you don't.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
Now, just choose to do what you what is best
to do and get rid of that because that just
adds a shame a whole level.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
It's really, well, thank you so much. You have been
a joy. Thank you, Sandy.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
It's maybe my privilege.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, maybe we can have you back on I feel
like we I I had even like a laundry list
of questions for you, but I don't want to take
up too much more of your time.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
So thank you very much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Oh it's been my pleasure and delightful to be with you,
So thank you.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Covering Your Health
with EVELYNI Reves, presented by iehp Oh my Gosh, Season two,
Episode two. Here we are all ready to go now.
You know I love the holidays, but I have to
tell you when you get to the holidays.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
For some this is.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
A very, very challenging time in people's lives, including myself.
It can stir up a lot of emotions, especially for
those who just recently lost a loved one or are
still coping with some sort of loss. So let's face it,
there are little things in our daily lives that remind
us of those things that we lost, the people, the
(00:41):
animals and such. Yet during the holidays, grief can sometimes
sneak up on you right or hit you the hardest.
Maybe some of those favorite holiday traditions, watching a movie
decorating the tree reminds you of those who aren't physically
here anymore, and that grief and well, we need to
navigate that, don't we. That's why we brought in the
(01:02):
perfect person to help with that. Today we're joined by
Sandy Wyman, vice President of Mission at inlann Empire Health Plan,
who is going to help us talk about how we
can navigate the grieving process during the holidays. Sandy comes
to the conversation with decades.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I mean, wait till you hear her story.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Decades of experience as a critical care nurs chaplain and
a mission coach. So we have quite the expert on
hand to talk through a very complex subject. I know
that you'll benefit from I know ow I'm going to
benefit from this, and I hope you will too.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Welcome to Covering your Health, a wellness podcast dedicated to
covering all areas of living a healthy and happy lifestyle,
from healthy hearts to understanding health plans and everything in between.
Each episode will provide you with a better understanding of
managing your health, preventative care, and staying on the right
path for your family's wellness journey. The Covering Your Health
(01:57):
podcast is presented by i EhP now your host, evil
In Revez.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Okay, well let's get started. Hi, Sandy, how are you?
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I'm doing well, Evelyn, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'm good, Thank you so much for joining me. So excited.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So this is episode two of our new season. So
I'm really really blessed because we had a whole full
season of amazing stuff and we're already starting off with
a bang, and very happy to have you here. I
want to talk a little bit about you and your background.
I love to get a little insight or how did
you find yourself in this line of work?
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Sure, you know I've probably in one way or another,
been in this line of work since I was four
or five years old. It seems like I've always been
drawn to people or creatures who are suffering in times
of crisis or sadness or grief. And then of course
decided to take nursing going into college, and so the
(03:00):
roles that I've had, and again what I've done have
really been in deepening a sense of the joy of
serving others, fostering hope, meaning purpose in the work and
in the organization, and just kind of a focus on healing.
There can't always be a cure, but there can always
be healing and bringing people hope.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
What is it do you think when you were so
young that was there a situation that happened for you
or was it just a nurturing ability you had right away?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
You know, I come from a line of ministers in
our faith tradition and fortunately just really healthy faith tradition
in terms of our family, which is a heart for service,
so family stories and legacy, and had grandparents who are
missionaries in Burma, India and so forth, and so I
(03:57):
grew up on these stories of courage and faith and
service yea, and loving others through what we do. But
probably the first I remember, the first time I experienced
just such sadness was putting down our dog Fife when
I was five and she had hepatitis and she'd fall
over all the time. And I went with my dad
(04:19):
to the events, and while I didn't go in, I
stayed in the in the waiting room. We stayed in
the waiting room. It was just I remember having a
lot of thoughts about that as a little person, and
just I don't know, I've just always had, you know,
the meaning of the of the name Sandra, which is
my you know, given name is helper of mankind. So
(04:41):
there's no pressure there to show up in that way.
But that's really kind of been my life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's impressive. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And that's funny that you look that up to see,
because you know what is funny. Our families do things
to us, right, they inspire things and as they change
our path. You're started with a name you didn't even know.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Yeah, that's right, that's right. I think as a teenager
when I look that up and I said, well, that
resonates with how I feel inside and who I want
to be.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And family stories, you know, especially with your grandparents' story
and and all of that.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's in your blood.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
It really is very true. Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Well okay, so let's talk about your role at IHP
and its mission to help serve not just as as
you know, the health plan members, but the entire region.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
How do you do that? Tell me a little bit.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
About right right, Well, you know, we've had I've had
this role for a couple of years. I've been at
IHP for five years. All of my career has really
been on the acute side of healthcare, so hospitals or
health systems. I've been a critical care and nurse and
specialty and palliative care and hospice. I've been a chaplain
for years. I'm a credential coach, but the last many
(05:59):
years have been in leader ship roles for mission integration,
organizational culture, some leadership development, and so coming to IHP
our phenomenal CEO, Jared McNaughton has such a heart for
people and for serving the underserved and so forth, and
really wanted to establish more intentionally a mission minded focus
(06:26):
and values based work that we do. HP has always
been a phenomenal place with a strong sense of mission.
In its twenty eight years, it's had this mantor of
doing the right thing. You know. We serve one point
five million members and contract with over eight thousand providers
and forty two hospitals. And I was amazed when I
came first of all, didn't realize how complex and multi
(06:49):
layered a health plan is, but very impressed at IHP
with people's sense of calling and purpose and dedication to
this work. And many of our employe we're IHP members
and so then they come back and they give back.
So this in our work. I have four mission coaches
(07:09):
who work with me. I hired them in and we
title that. A couple of them are clinicians. We work
with leaders and teams and even externally with our community
business partners and with providers or hospitals who are interested
in strengthening their cultures of mission and lived values in
the organization. People are especially coming out of the pandemic,
(07:32):
but have always been in healthcare hungry to come back
to remembering what brought them to this work and to
retread their tires and to help cultivate resilience. And that's
what we do.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Man, that is a big undertaking. For the record, like
that is a lot. I feel like that's even more
added pressure on you post pandemic because the of the
sense of need right for the sense to center again.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Totally, yes, yes see, I'm glad you used that word center.
We kind of come from a concept. You know, our
mission statement is we heal and inspire the human spirit,
and then we talk about a center for the human spirit,
which is really our heart and working from our heart.
And so yeah, I like your use of that word center.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I feel like it was the right thing just based
on what you said.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Go, well, now, how did you get involved in this
line of work as a critical care nurse prior? We
all know that grief is never easy, but you took
it a step further and we're a chaplain.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I had about ten years as an ICU nurse. Some
of those two or three years were working in the
emergency department, so I was working right at the bedside
and close with patients and families who are experiencing trauma
and crisis life change. You know, grief is really living
in the disparity of how it is and how we
would like it to be. And so people would come
(08:59):
in of the hospital and not only some of them
experience the end of their life and so walking with
families through that, but also just loss of hopes and
dreams and life changing because of surgeries and accidents and
illnesses and so forth. And so grief is universal, and
(09:21):
I just was somehow again naturally drawn to people experiencing that,
and you'd see me off in the corner sort of
sitting with the family and having those kind of conversations,
how is this impacting your life, how are you doing,
what kind of resources do you have, and so forth.
So I along about nineteen ninety three before I decided
(09:47):
to take chaplaincy, I lost my middle child, my seven
year old son, Trevor, to an inoperable brain tumor. Oh
my goodness, And so I was finally sort of on
the at that point I'd only lost too maybe very
elderly grandparents, and it was just a nice benediction at the
end of their life. But Trevor had never even been sick,
and he just was just so loving and thoughtful and kind.
(10:10):
I was looking forward to seeing who he'd be when
he grew up. But going through that experience, which was
such a crucible, felt very called to chaplaincy to be
able to spend more dedicated time with people really exploring
meaning and hope and purpose and spirituality and people of
(10:34):
all faiths or none. And that's kind of how I
how I began to move into those spaces.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Wow, Oh my gosh, Well, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I know that that those are those are wounds that
don't heal, you know, those are things that stay with
you forever and ever. Let's talk about grief. You obviously
have been there yourself. What is the nature of grief?
What are the key concepts that you want us.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
To Yeah, good question. So, first of all, grief is
universal and it's natural, and it's necessary to heal. We
must feel and so it's not an illness to get
over or a problem to solve, and it's actually something
we can't really go around because we'll carry it with us.
(11:21):
It'll show up as illness or disease later in our life,
or high blood pressure or what have you, because we
hurt much, because we love much, so I mean to
live any other way, we'd have to be rocks and stones, right,
So it's natural, it's necessary. None of us experience it
in the same way. Men and women experience it generally
(11:44):
quite differently, and no one can ever know what someone
else is experiencing. I could meet a mother who lost
a son from the same kind of brain tumor, who
was the same age and died on the same day
of the same month, and I don't have a clue
how she feels.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Oh. Absolutely, So it's so.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Important for people to know that, because one of the
least helpful things we say to people when they're grieving
is I understand how you feel. So we can say
I understand what it was for me, but I can't
imagine what it must be like for you, right, yeah,
and and and so you know, we lay a lot
(12:23):
of expectations on each other and on people on how
to move through it. But unless you're still in your
robe and not eating and have isolated, you know, six
months later, every other way to move through it is normal.
Some people move through it, and it's more challenging because
grief is layered on. There may be many losses. We
(12:47):
saw that through COVID. We had one of our editors
that works in marketing at IHP lost nine family members
to COVID in five months.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
He said, Sandy, next thinks giving half of our family
will be around the table. So there's such a thing
as complicated grief, and one of the ways that takes
place is again just layered on over time. There's something
called disenfranchised grief, where there are griefs that are not
publicly sanctioned, socially sanctioned. People feel like they have to
(13:20):
keep it to themselves, and that just adds on to
the weight right that that people carry. So whether it
gets integrated eventually as a strength and wisdom or maybe
as a bitterness over time, has everything to do with
the story we tell ourselves about what it is, the
meaning that we give it, and the support that we seek.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
You hit on one thing specifically that resonated with me.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
When you see someone going through something and you want,
you instantly want to turn it into something that you've
felt before, right that you felt. So when you say
things like you know, I know how you're feeling, it
just credits how they're feeling that's right, right.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
That's right. We want so much to we mean well,
people mean right.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah, I think again. I don't think it's on purpose anything.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
No, No, they really do mean well, but they but
the things we say often tend to help, want to
make us feel more comfortable.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
And so the thing is the person who is grieving,
for example, people are afraid to say the name of
the one who died. Well, the person who's grieving thinks
about it all the time, and they often would like someone,
you know, to just say, you know, I'm here if
you want to talk. The best. One of the things
(14:44):
is probably doesn't work well is to ask people when
they're in the throes of grief, let me know what
you need. You know, people don't know what they need.
They're overwhelmed, they're in early stages of just trying to
adjust to the reality of it, and so we don't
want to put that burden on.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Then.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
I had about eight ladies from our church who broke in,
if you will, to our house about four weeks after
Trevor died, found all of our bills and paid everything.
Oh my god, you know, rather than ask, I would
never have told them to do that or ever you know,
been able to answer in that way, but it was
so helpful, and so you know, the best thing is
(15:25):
to just simply strike out and do something. If it's
invasive or not helpful, the person will let you know.
But it just feels good to know that people are wanting,
you know, to be to be of help. Or sometimes
we make statements like, well, if I, in fact, if
I had a nickel for every time people had said
to me, Sandy, at least you have two other children.
(15:45):
Oh no, as if if you had a hundred children,
that would be a comforting.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Come in my goodness again.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Meaning well, but any time we say at least anyway,
we've just diminished you know, everything that came before really
their right to feel, or the word should right, or
things like you'll strong, you're strong, you know you'll move
through this, or or so many others have experienced this too,
(16:13):
or some people spiritualize it and it's not time to
do that when the grief is raw and so forth.
So you know, silence is sometimes the best gift we
give people just to come alongside and cry with them,
and you know.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, and just be there and just and just and
just sit there sit in it with them.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, we've heard many times there are stages to grief.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
What are some of those stages?
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting when Elizabeth Koobler Ross many
years ago identified these five stages. They were actually meant
to be for the active dying process when we come
to the end of our life, and somehow they got
converted into the grieving process. So yeah, they're not linear,
they're circular, and we pass through them a lot, especially
(17:05):
in the first year, with anniversaries and with so forth,
and so we most of us have heard. We begin
with shock and disbelief. I mean, it's just like being
in an earthquake and total disbelief. You can't get your
mind around it. And sometimes I'll hear people say, well,
you know, it's been four weeks and my sister's just
(17:27):
in denial, and I say, no, you know, you can
maybe name something denial six months from now, but not
right now. She's in shock and disbelief and trying to
get your mind around, you know, what's taking place. Then
there's anger, and then we come to discouragement. Sometimes people
call that depression. It may or maybe over time in
(17:50):
months and months and months it can become clinical depression,
but we're just sad and we have a right to
be sad for as long as we're sad. And then
there's sort of stage that was about bargaining, sort of
whether it's with God or whomever, just say, if you
do this, then I'll do that, or I promise I'll
always if dot dot dot right, yeah, and then we
(18:11):
come to a place of acceptance, which really is just
moving into the reality. For me, for example, with my son,
after about four or five six weeks, it was like, oh,
he's really not gone to summer camp. He's really not
here right, And it's just accepting the reality. Now. What
I love is that David Kessler k E S s
(18:32):
l E R. And you can go to his website
great resource, and he's got courses that people can take,
and he has a support group people can be a
part of. But he wrote a book that came out
a couple of years ago called Meaning the Sixth Stage
of Grief. And he was actually a protege and a
colleague of Elizabeth Koobler Ross And we've heard him on
(18:54):
lots of talk shows and things. He's really brilliant, and
so that sixth Stage of grief is meaning. And I
wrote myself a note here so I could say this, right,
it's it's that in time we find personal purpose and
hope and a way to bless others out of our
experience and help them find meaning. What he says is
(19:14):
each person's grief is as unique as their fingerprint. But
what everyone has in common is that no matter how
they grieve, they share a need for their grief to
be witnessed. I love that. And that doesn't mean needing
someone to try and fix it or reframe it or
lessen it for them. It's the need for someone to
be fully present to the magnitude of their loss, without
(19:36):
judging it or trying to put a silver lining around it.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, I really like that.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
I do too.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah. Yeah, And that also could be, you know, the
meaning could also be those support groups that you see
for so many people.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
That's fact years later.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, you know, that kind of other way of finding
you know for sure what you've gone through into action.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Yeah, And I wouldn't ever want people to think that,
you know, there's an expectation that everyone ought to find
a support group or what have you. Different ways of
healing are for different people. The important thing is that
we don't just try to lock it and stuff it away.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Now.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Men tend to process their grief more internally and more quietly.
They might go out and shoot acheen holes of golf
with three buddies and never say a word, but it's
therapeutic for them. Women tend to Those are big generalizations,
but women tend to process in relationship and relationally, so
(20:40):
with friends or whoever, and to talk about it. Right.
And so if we can just give each other a
lot of grace in our marriages and partnerships when we
experience grief, because we will do it differently.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, each one of us. No couple's going to be
the same either, no process. Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
What are some of the myths associated with grief?
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Oh, that's a great question, because they certainly are there.
Probably one of them that comes to mind is that
people just need to get over it. They need to
get over there, you know, suck it up. Not that
everyone would be cruel enough to say suck it up.
But there is no standard time for getting over it.
(21:23):
There's only moving through it because it's part of life.
And then working, I like to say, working it into
the soil of our life over time, so out of
that grows beautiful things for ourselves and for others, and
that people have a right to be sad for as
long as they're sad. Another one is that tears are
a sign of weakness.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Oh yeah, a big.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
That's a myth. And so tears are really about feelings
we just don't have words for, and they carry out toxins.
They have a physiological purpose in our life. And so
sometimes boys in our culture and different cultures are cultured
not to cry. That's not being a man. But nothing
could be farther from the truth. They've just kind of
(22:07):
been cultured and raised that way. But tears are they matter.
Another one is that the griever again feels greater sadness
when we talk about it. And that's another that's another
myth because again most people are thinking about it every day,
and the best thing is to ask people and say
(22:28):
what's most helpful and comforting for you? Would you like
to talk about this or does it fit more for
you right now? To not talk about it because I
want to be helpful, right and just simply ask people
is so good. Another myth is that if someone's grieving,
the best thing to do is leave them alone. So
(22:50):
we don't want to bombard people, but we don't want
to withdraw either just a card or a text or
a brief phone call kind of lets them know we're
thinking of a and like I said, just strike out
and do something. And the other myth is that time
heals all wounds. There's nothing magic about time. Actually, it's
(23:13):
what we do with the time and how we move
through it. And maybe the last one I'd mentioned is
I've heard people say, well, you can't really help anyone
in grief. They just have to grieve, and I say, yes,
yes you can. What helps the most is not explanation,
but consolation. People just need love with skin on it,
(23:37):
Frank Clay. They need to know that someone will stay
and will care without trying to fix it or judge
it or make it seem like it's something that's wrong
with people. And again, our silent presence is almost always
the best thing we can get.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, yeah, I like that You talked about the physiological
part of tears, right, there's actually a benefit.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yes, you get rid of tuxins.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So what are other ways that grief impacts us physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Yeah, Well, for any of us who've exp and of course,
remember there are many kinds of grief, right, and many
kinds of loss, right, So not only the loss through death,
there's a loss of health and hopes and dreams and
pets and relationships and so forth, and sometimes even getting
married and having kids. There's still grief in that because
(24:34):
you're having to release something and say goodbye to one chapter,
right to move into and form a new story and
a new chapter. There's some grieving involved in that. But
when we think of the loss particularly that's most profound,
through losing each other and losing someone dear to us,
or even a pet, I mean physically all these things
(24:55):
you've mentioned. Grief is very draining, so lots of lots
of fatigue. It can affect our appetite, affect our sleep,
our energy level, our uh, just our interest in in
doing things for a while. I caution people who have
a faith community that people not coming to church after
(25:18):
after a loss in their life is not a lack
of faith. They're exhausted, right, and so just make sure
and offer gently what you can. Send them a card,
let them know you're thinking of them. But there shouldn't
be any expectations of how people need to be and
show up during that time. Emotionally, I mean we we
(25:44):
nothing like grief invites us to ask life's deeper questions.
You know, what's it all about? What does it mean?
Where's God? And all of this? Spiritually we wrestle or
whoever that whatever our tradition is, what have I done?
Am I being punished?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Being?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I've heard that being punished.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
I can't tell you as a chaplain how many times
I heard people say that from their from their beds,
And it just broke my heart, and I just thought,
who taught you that? You know? The higher power is?
You know, look watch watching policing us to find ways
to get do a gotcha? You know, in our life
it's just very very sad. But emotionally there you're all
(26:27):
over the page. And so you're up one day, down
the next. You're laughing one day and feeling guilty about it.
And then you're driving your car and a song comes
on the radio and you have had to do this
and pull pull off to the side of the road
and just and just cry. Yeah, which is perfectly all
right and good to do. But wait, grief is comes
(26:48):
in waves of an ocean. There's no like time and
and sometimes seem seemingly reason to it. It just comes
when it comes, and it's good to let it sort
of do that. So there's long lists of things that
we can experience in all the ways you mentioned, and
they're all normal. They all tend to pass with gentleness
(27:11):
and compassion for ourselves and support and time. If they
linger over a long period of time, I think people
should probably watch their loved ones who are grieving and friends,
but for themselves, seek professional help. If they don't feel
good about themselves, if they just seem constantly out of control,
(27:32):
stressed out, foggy headed for weeks and weeks on end.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I'm talking about very serious, that's right.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
If they fear harming themselves or others, if they have
repeated losses in their life, it's probably good to find
a good counselor to talk with just to help sort
those through. And if they continually seek comfort in alcohol, drugs,
other potentially harmful activities, it feels like an escape for
(28:01):
a time, and it numbs the feelings which are all there.
They don't go away, and it just compounds the issue
because now you've got that, and if the support of
wise friends and family is not enough or if people
are isolating themselves, that's what we want to look out for,
especially over a protracted period of time.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah. Yeah, we could talk forever about this.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I feel like we could talk for hours about it,
but you kind of brought it up. The next thing
I was going to ask, what should people do if
is their professional help go to resources available grief counselors,
you know, is something The first thing that comes to
my mind. What kind of resources I know, IHP, if
we have some of those resources as well, will you
(28:46):
speak to that.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Our behavioral health and member facing departments at IHP are
able to direct people to resources in the community. Lots
of online resources. I mentioned one of them, David Kessler.
You can look up grief Share, which may be a
little more leaning toward people with faith traditions, but there
(29:13):
is so much available. There are tons of books now
that you just go on Amazon and there are some
very good books on grief and working through grief. Another
author who was a longtime friend and has since passed
is H. Norman Wright. R. W. R Ight wrote probably
twenty five books on grief and loss, and before that
(29:35):
was a marriage and family therapist, and so there's a
lot of ways in which to do that. Seek out
trusted friends, and make sure you're surrounding yourself with people
who are positive, who love you, who care for you genuinely,
and are not laying a lot of expectations and shoulds
on you. You don't need that at this time. Make
(29:59):
sure you're getting lock of sleep and drinking a lot
of water, because grieving is dehydrating. So do the things
that nurture and strengthen you. Time and nature, music that
nurtures you. Taking a hot bath, journaling, getting a massage
is really helpful. And just you know, let your memories
(30:19):
over time, let your memories be a source of comfort.
Love never dies. There's a quote that I love that
says death can never take away more than love leaves behind. Oh,
it's just a lot that we get to keep right. Yeah,
And so the task of grieving is really sorting through
what am I saying goodbye to because you never say
(30:41):
goodbye to the person or the relationship. But for example,
with Trevor my son, it was maybe three or four
months after. It can be helpful. Someone suggested I read
writing a goodbye letter, not write away at all, but
it was just goodbye to the things we can no
longer do, Like he learned how to ride his bike
in the cemetery where he's now buried, right, and so
(31:05):
goodbye to doing that, Goodbye to making cookies together, goodbye
to you know, catching bugs and you know, but not
goodbye to the relationship. You're just releasing what can no
longer be. But you are absolutely holding forever in your heart,
and you'll find that the relationship and the memories continue
(31:27):
to grow, actually over time.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Oh, you're making me emotional, like I literally my eyes.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Well, that's just because you have a heart.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I was just thinking, you know, like with with loss,
grief is so different for everybody, and you're right, it
comes in waves. And when you said the quote, that
quote like struck a chord with me because it is
so true how love endures.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
It just does. It lives on forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And I think about my grandma all the time, and
I think about how I see her sometimes and I,
you know, and I and it makes me laugh because
I didn't grieve right away with her.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yes, I was, yeah, really sad, but I didn't grieve
right away.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
And now I sometimes find myself grieving years later, which is.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
So beautiful, but it really is. What it is is
a flavor of loving, yeah, and not you're just missing her,
right and missing what can no longer be. And that's
what grief is. But it is not again, it's not
something to get over. It's just part of loving.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Well, you know, it's so funny, Andrew Garfield. I don't
know if you saw that online with Elmo, Oh my goodness,
and he sort of said something to that that was
just so heartbreakingly sweet, like it was.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
You know, at least I miss her and that makes me.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Happy because I have that I had that kind of
relationship with her that I get to think about all
of them, those moments again, I love that.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
And if I can add one thing to that, the
only thing I caution people is that sometimes people feel
as if the only way they can connect with their
loved when they're missing is in a place of pain.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Oh true.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah, So we can almost choose to stay in pain
and suffering and a depleted state, right, And that's different
than missing just missing someone right and remembering and loving
and I mean and making make anniversaries. So on Trevor's birthday,
(33:36):
I fix his favorite foods. I have chicken nuggets, cherry pie,
broccoli and French fries. I love right and often a
couple times we've I've planted a tree somewhere and his
memory and you know, so take these, take some anniversary
times and mark them in time and have them become
a tradition. And especially if you have other children, the
(34:00):
most challenging thing is I have my my oldest was.
I have a son who was ten at that time,
and Trevor was seven and my daughter was two. Wow,
And I will tell you it took me nine months,
almost a year before I could take pictures of the
family because Trevor, Trevor was missing and it wasn't whole.
And then you want to be careful that the person
(34:22):
who died that somehow they're there, they don't overshadow everyone
else in the family who's here. Yeah, right, And especially
other children. They need a year old there today and.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Riab grieving in their own ways.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
And grieving in their way too. So you have to
invest in them and for children, keep their routines as
much as possible and just remind them of how much
you love them. And kids take for the most part,
under eight seven years of age, they take their cues
from the adults and as to how safe everything is.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
So yeah, oh my gosh, Well this has been such
a powerful episode.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
You're so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
You speak so eloquently about everything, all of this with
such great grace and such great information. I have another Well,
I want to wrap this up because I want to
take too much more of your time, But I have
a question for you. I always like to end our
podcast with three key takeaways? Can you give me three
(35:29):
key takeaways that we can we can utilize today or
utilize down the road, you know, maybe have as a utility.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
That's a beautiful practice that you have. I love that.
I think that Probably number one would be compassion for
yourself is where it all starts. We tend to connect
to the life and other people to the extent we're
connected to the life and ourselves. So, you know, so
(36:02):
be your own best friend and be compassionate. Yeah, be
your own best friend. And what does that look like,
because sometimes our self talk isn't that way? That's true,
Let's see. Probably number two would be there's no right
way to move through grief. There can be healthier ways
(36:24):
over time, but no right way, and that everyone experiences
it differently, So lots of grace for yourself, a lot
of grace for others, and then just really lean on
trusted positive people in your life and spaces and learn
to learn the blessing of receiving. I know, oftentimes for
(36:44):
women who are grieving, they're so used to giving and
pouring into other people and taking care of the family
emotionally and all the rest, and sometimes we're not as
good as women at receiving. But this is a time
for receiving. Let others do for you. They need the
blessing of giving to you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And I'm going to also add to my little tool
belt here the words.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Not to use, the at least and the shoulds. We're
not using those words.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Yeah, we could almost take those out of the English language.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
And you are totally right.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Why do I need to use the word at least,
the words at least, Really you don't.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
Now, just choose to do what you what is best
to do and get rid of that because that just
adds a shame a whole level.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
It's really, well, thank you so much. You have been
a joy. Thank you, Sandy.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
It's maybe my privilege.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, maybe we can have you back on I feel
like we I I had even like a laundry list
of questions for you, but I don't want to take
up too much more of your time.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
So thank you very much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Oh it's been my pleasure and delightful to be with you,
So thank you.
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