April 7, 2025 • 45 mins
Join Evelyn Erives on this insightful episode of Covering Your Health, presented by IEHP, as she delves into the crucial topic of perinatal mental health. Evelyn is joined by Dr. Anna King, a licensed clinical social worker, who shares her expertise on the emotional challenges faced by expectant and new mothers. Discover practical strategies for managing stress, anxiety, and depression during pregnancy and postpartum, and learn about the importance of seeking support. Whether you're a new mom or know someone who is, this episode offers valuable insights to help navigate the journey of motherhood with confidence and care.
For more information on this show's topic visit IEHP.org or (800) 440-IEHP.
Reach out to Evelyn via Instagram @evelynerives or email her at EvelynErives@iHeartMedia.com
For more information on this show's topic visit IEHP.org or (800) 440-IEHP.
Reach out to Evelyn via Instagram @evelynerives or email her at EvelynErives@iHeartMedia.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Covering Your Health
with EVELYNI Revas, presented by I EhP. I am so
happy to have you here for a very special episode.
I think is going to help a lot of people.
I say that all the time, don't I. I really do, though,
this is a very special episode. You know, since we
launched our sweet Little podcast, we've talked a lot about
(00:22):
the importance of mental health mental health education in particular,
and today's podcast is really getting back to the roots
of last season when we welcome doctor Paul McMahon and
my husband. We had them come to the mic and
talk about men's mental health. And then, you know, our
very first episode of our second season, we talked with
(00:44):
American idol Abby Carter. She shared her mental health journey
with us and her partnership with IEHP really just to
encourage young teens and adults to start that conversation when
they need that extra hand in manage the day to
day stressors in life. Mental health is focused in so
(01:06):
many parts of our podcast, and I love today's episode
because we're going to focus on the mental and emotional
wellness during pregnancy and postpartum with a wonderful guest you
are going to love doctor Anna King. Doctor King is
an Inland Empire based LIGHTNSED, licensed Clinical social worker, certified
(01:30):
paranatal mental health specialist, and qualitative research psychologists. Right lots
of big title names there. She's going to help us
dive into this very info driven topic from the misconceptions
associated with pre and postpartum depression, what signs to look
for and how to find your community. Let's get into
(01:54):
it and welcome doctor Anna King.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Welcome to Covering Your Health, a wellness podcast dedicated to
covering all areas of living a healthy and happy lifestyle,
from healthy hearts to understanding health plans and everything in between.
Each episode will provide you with a better understanding of
managing your health, preventative care, and staying on the right
path for your family's wellness journey. The Covering Your Health
(02:19):
podcast is presented by I e HP. Now your host,
Evelina Revez.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
All Right, welcome doctor King. Hello Anna, how are you.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I'm doing well. It's good to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It's so exciting. I have wanted you to be on
the show for quite some time, so here we are
in season two. I'm so excited to finally get to
have you on. Congratulations on. I know you put a
lot of effort and work into getting your PhD over
the last few years, so yay.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Go yes, yes, I'm loving this post p to D life.
Lots of lots more sleep.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh yeah, I imagine, right, yeah yeah, But now the
work begins, right like the real work in the field.
So let's get into it. Let's talk about you. Tell
me about how you decided this was going to be
your pathway. Did that start at a young age? Where
did it begin for you?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I don't know if it was necessarily a conscious decision.
It kind of just came to me, it unfolded. I
always like to say I followed the breadcrumbs. I always
knew every wanted to study psychology, probably since high school.
I started to get interested in it, and then whenever
I was in college. So my particular area of focus
is in par needal mental health. And so when I
(03:34):
was in college, I was I did an internship at
a halfway house for women who were in recovery from
substance use, and I would go to the local jail
to interview them folks who applied to our program and
try to negotiate them to have time off of their
sentence if they could come to our treatment program. And
(03:55):
through that, I started to really learn and understand maybe
more are implicitly the importance of protecting maternal mental health.
And then fast forward a bunch of years, got a
master's degree and started to work as a clinical social worker,
and I was in the hospital setting, uh, working in
the er and then later in the postpartum unit and
(04:16):
the neonatal intensive care units, and just really then started
to do a deep dive into understanding the massive transition
that folks go through as they start to introduce a
baby into their home, into their family, and what what
waves that creates and so through that I wasn't even
(04:37):
a parent yet myself, but I just found that I
was really passionate about making sure that folks had the
best experience that they could across that whole timeline, that transition.
And then I became a mom myself and experienced my
own mental health challenges in that transition. And and and
(04:58):
I think we'll talk about this a little bit today,
but you just I think a lot of people kind
of have this understanding or this kind of idea of
what that experience is supposed to look like, but oftentimes
in reality, it looks a lot different than what you expected.
And so I wasn't immune to that. And even though
I was a clinical social worker and I had gotten
(05:19):
trained in paranadal mental health, it didn't change how it
impacted me. And so once I did finally get trained
in paranatal mental health, I also realized that there was
a lot I didn't know before that, and that there
were a lot of gaps in my training that felt like, oh, like,
why didn't I know this already? And so then I
just it just set me on the path to being
(05:39):
able to teach other people about supporting and protecting the
mental and emotional needs of parents as they start to
you know, go through pregnancy and postpartum. And that's where
I'm at now.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, yeah, so you I love the way you said it.
You followed the breadcrumbs, So there were so many little
signs along the way leading you into this line of work.
So you can help more people navigate that road through
beginning motherhood and even you know, pregnancy and all of
(06:12):
those kinds of things and post pregnancy. So that's so
fascinating to me. I love that I find with a
lot of the guests on the show they do, there's
there's always like a signal. There's like a signal saying, hey,
this might be your way, maybe this might drive you.
And I feel like if you do those kinds of things,
you don't ever feel like you really work because you're
(06:35):
so happy in what you have found right along that way.
So a very interesting story, and I'm sorry that you
had to go through it too yourself to kind of
also find that calling as well. Let's talk about it.
Let's take a deep dive. Can you describe for people
who don't necessarily understand or maybe never even heard the
(06:55):
words perinatal mental health? What is it? And why is
it so important for us to learn more about it?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, so parenting of mental health is really the it's
a kind of a broad topic and there's a whole
lot of different kind of pathways that you can take
under meet that broader topic. But it's really looking at
the mental and emotional well being of folks who are
trying to get pregnant, so maybe they're on their fertility journey,
(07:25):
folks who are currently pregnant and navigating their gestational period,
and then folks who are as part of or who
have recently been pregnant or introduced the baby into their home.
So that also includes folks who maybe have adopted or
you know, had a loss, Folks who had a pregnancy
and lost that pregnancy, or had an infant and lost
that infant. There are a wide range of experiences under
(07:50):
that umbrella. We're also talking about more than just depression.
There are other conditions that people might experience if it
comes to the point that they start to experience symptom.
There's of course a paranadal depression, which is a more
commonly known kind of challenge that people might experience, but
there's also a range of anxiety disorders. Folks might experience trauma.
(08:14):
Birth trauma, or pregnancy can sometimes provoke or bring up
past traumas that people have experienced. Folks might experienced psychosis,
which is not common at all, but it is under
that umbrella paranatal mental health. And so yeah, it's really
talking about a whole lot of different things, but anything
that touches someone who is trying to get pregnant, thinking
(08:37):
about getting pregnant, currently pregnant, just being pregnant and the partners.
That's why we often use the broader term perinatal because
maternal is really focused on mother, but we also know
that fathers can also experience both part of depression and
then health changes during the parentatal periods. So yeah, perinatal
is like all encompassing.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, that's everybody, that cover all of us. Yeah, oh
my gosh, so fascinating. I think about like when the
just from the very onset, like finding out that you're pregnant,
the emotion that you get there right, sometimes it's joyous
for some people, it may not be. And then there's
that whole I mean, that process starts so early. And
(09:20):
I think one of the things that I didn't know
anything about, like I didn't think about people talk about
postpartum depression, but they don't talk about prepartum depression. And
I was like, oh my god, that's like that is
a thing because it really does begin at the onset.
It really can start right there as a trigger for
(09:40):
somebody or whatever that might be or might look like.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So Mental Health America estimates four million live births occur
annually in the United States, which is this number is
what really gets me. Six hundred thousand women experiencing perinetal depression.
So that's a massive number that is a huge, huge number.
(10:05):
What are some of the signs that non pregnant persons
can look at when maybe they see somebody in their
life struggling, because most likely we know someone who has
struggled through pregnancy or post pregnancy in all of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, absolutely, and I even want to offer that what
we've learned in research over the last couple of years
is that those numbers are actually a lot higher, and
it's for a few different reasons. There's the stressors that
have emerged through the pandemic. People are feeling much more
isolated and disconnected from their communities. I mean, we're starting
to work a little bit back towards that, but it
(10:46):
really had a huge impact on people, and especially you know,
economic instabilities and things like that. And so it's actually
in California, more like one in four people will experience
parenabal depression during pregnancy or postpartums. So I wanted to
just kind of name that that it's very real and
even what you said it makes sense because I think
(11:07):
about that well.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I was going to say, people don't report it too, right,
Like there's so many of us who don't seek treatment,
but no, something is happening in us I know I
went through that with my son. After my son was born,
I didn't even know what was happening to me until
he was six months old, and I felt like, in
a snap, I came out of a fog. And there's
(11:32):
no other way I could describe it to my husband,
to anybody. My husband noticed something was going on with me,
but he didn't know what it was. And it was
his first child, so we were both kind of just
navigating that road together. And I just think I never
went and sought treatment. I just I didn't. So I'm
a number that's not even being reported. So there's got
to be lots more like that.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Right, you're spoken like a true researcher. That is exactly
what I was going because I was number two. Is
that it's so underreported because there's also so much stigma too,
like not only do people not know what's going on
with them, they sometimes feel like shame for what they're
experiencing because you're supposed to be happy, like you just
got this bundle of joy and you should have a
(12:15):
glow and you should be joyous, and for a lot
of people that is not their experience. And so if
that's the case, then you know where can you feel
safe really speaking up and saying like, actually, I'm really
struggling here. And so you actually said one of the
more common presentations that I see in my practice is
that people are like, I don't know what's wrong, but
(12:35):
I don't feel like myself. It's really really common for
people to say they use that exact language like I
don't know something is wrong with me because I just
don't feel like myself. When am I ever going to
feel like myself? And so that's actually part of the
work is saying, well, I mean you've transformed into a new,
new being that on that day that baby was born,
a mother was born too, and so we have to
(12:56):
kind of rediscover who you are now and find our
way in this next chapter of your life. But it's
really common for people who are struggling with their mental
health to say like, there's something wrong with me. I
don't know what it is, but I don't feel like myself.
Maybe I'm going through the motions, or like you said,
I feel like I'm just in a fog, like I'm
disconnected from this experience of having this baby that I
(13:16):
do love. And that's the thing. Yeah, most people who
are experiencing challenges with their mental health. It does not
mean they don't have their baby, that they don't want
their baby. That is not what that equals. It just
means that they just don't feel good. They don't feel good.
And so those are really really common expressions of parinatal
(13:37):
depression that I've seen. The other thing that I always
like to teach people is that the nuance and this
is why it's so important for people who work with
pregnant and pust part of families to get training and
parinatal mental health specifically is because it often presents differently
than the traditional like major depressive disorder that people kind
of be a little more familiar with. In that parinatal
(13:59):
depression and is characterized often by this overwhelming feeling of anxiety,
like they're just feeling so overwhelmed with all the responsibility.
And irritability is another hallmark characteristic of perinatal depression. So
easy to anger, easy to feel frustrated, and have a
shorter fuse. Sometimes if you're seeing that someone is experiencing that,
(14:21):
you might want to just check in and say, hey,
how you doing, Or if you yourself are experiencing that,
maybe it's time to go get some help and some
extra support.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a clear not as necessarily clear,
but that is a sign. That is a strong sign
when you can tell the irritability in someone. Are there
other other signs that people could maybe if you know,
you your best friend just had a baby and you're
you know, when you're besties, you always feel like you're
connected to somebody, right, what what should we be looking
(14:53):
out for, if you know, just to keep you know,
these kinds of things in mind.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Oftentimes we focus so much on the baby's health and like,
how's the baby, how's the baby sleeping? How's the baby?
You know, adjusting is the baby? How's the baby's poop?
And it's like, how about you ask mom how she's pooping?
Because oftentimes that the poops are hard to come by,
and those baby and they can really take a toll
on your mental And so I say that ingest truly, yeah, truly,
(15:23):
we have to really turn our focus like that baby.
You can pretty much trust that that mom is taking
really good care of that baby. Dad as well is
taking really good care of that baby, But who's looking
after them? So really paying attention to how they're adjusting.
It's normal. It's totally normal to be like really overwhelmed
(15:45):
and need a period of time for adjustment because everything's new.
You're not sleeping, you're covered in milk, somebody's milk, some
kind of milk, you're covered in excrements, like it's a
it's a really interesting time, and especially for families who
don't have a whole lot of support and they're kind
of just doing it on their own, and so just
really paying attention to how they're adjusting. And I really
(16:08):
appreciated that you were sharing in your story that you
didn't even realize until six months out that there was
something going on for you. Paranatal depression can emerge anytime
within the first year, and I think that it's really
important for people to realize that that often we're you know,
we're around and checking in in those first couple of weeks,
But what about when they're six months postpartum. What about
(16:30):
when they're nine months postpartum, which is actually the time
when folks will are more likely to experience maternal suicidal
thoughts is closer to the nine months postpartum period, And
so we can't forget to keep checking in our parents
and seeing how they're doing the other thing that can
sometimes be expressed is like these really intense feelings of
(16:51):
shame and like guilt, and like feelings of inadequacy, like oh,
I'm not a good mom, or you know, I could
only breastfeed for two weeks, I'm not a good mom.
So listening for that can sometimes queue you into to
someone who might be struggling with their mental health. Just
an opportunity for you to open a conversation and say, hey,
you know, it's it's normal to feel like this is
(17:13):
a lot to hold and how can I be there
for you? How can I support you? Do you want
to talk or do you not want to talk? Do
you just want me to sit here and be with you?
So those are some things that come to mind.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Those are perfect, Those those are those are very clear,
and I think you're so so right. I had this conversation.
So I have three kids, and I remember after my
third child, I was like, I am not going to
do the things that I always do and put this
super stress on breastfeeding, on all these things. Of course
(17:48):
I want a breastfeed, right, But I struggled so hard
through it, and I had a nurse who was really
rough on me and I you know, but that's the thing,
and I know that they mean well, so I understood that,
you know, I know they mean well, they really want
your baby to get the most. But I couldn't do it,
and I was done. And I remember being like, I
(18:10):
am done, and my husband, thank God, knew she is done,
and I'm going to get a bottle, like you know,
this is where we're going, right, And that was really honestly,
that's exactly what I needed him to do. So with
my third I remember going not doing it to myself.
I'm gonna do what is best for me at that moment,
and that is enjoy this baby and every second I can.
(18:34):
So you but you learn that because of things that
happened to you. It was kind of traumatic what was
going on in my life with my son, and I
didn't know how bad I was struggling with that until
like later, right, that's when I knew. So I think
about that, and I think about how we have to
take our babies, like you had said, to every doctor's
appointment for like the first you know, so many weeks,
(18:56):
you're there, You're there always, always, it's checking, it's checking.
No one asked you like, are you still sore? Are you?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Are you okay? You know, there's the there's the very
personal things. Are you still losing a lot of blood?
Are you Those kinds of things that we don't talk about,
and I feel like we're we're missing that element here, right,
And that's why I'm so grateful for you and people
in your line of work that are trying to be
(19:24):
out there and educate these other the doctors. I know
you educate doctors on these kinds of things because it's
so great to be great at your job, but if
you don't have the bedside manner in which to treat
the mom as a whole person, it's so hard. It
is so it's so challenging. So I'm so grateful to
(19:44):
have you here. Let's let's talk about you were talking
about how dads are affected, right, can be affected? So
since it can be an effect on the dad, let's
talk about socioeconomic situations too.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We see that this peri neeedle depression happens a lot
more with people in a lower economic situation. Why do
you think that that is?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Well, you know, there's a lot of research and there's
a lot of ways that we kind of look at
so I'll use your terminology you were saying, looking at
the person as a whole person. Right. Oftentimes, when folks
go to the doctor, they go to their obgyn, or
they go to the pediatrician, which I love that you
(20:32):
were talking about the opportunities we have in the pediatric
office because they're seeing them all whole, not often a
lot more often than the ob do I N. But
when they go they are often being treated or they're
the provider is addressing one small piece of who they are.
But we forget that in order for them to even
(20:55):
come to the doctor, they have to have insurance, and
then that insurance has to cover their visit, and they
have to have transportation, and they have to have childcare.
Can they bring their baby to that doctor's appointment? Do
they have other children that they need looked after so
that they can come to that doctor's appointment? Is it
(21:16):
a matter of can I pay for this doctor's bill
or afford my groceries for the month? And so when
we think about folks who don't have access to even
just the basic of necessities, it kind of goes without
saying that that can have a way that can carry
or hold a load on your mental health. It can
really impact the way that you are able to cope
(21:39):
with just life. And so when you compound that with
now I have a baby that I have to make
sure that I have, I have everything I need to
take care of them, then that absolutely can increase the
risk that they might develop parantal depression.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And I think also, you know when you find out
you're pregnant, that there's other things that happen, Like, let's
say you are very important to your job, right, There's
things like that that play into a role, and like
I'm going to have to take time off, right, I
need to be with my baby. Does your job offer it?
Does your job support you in your new family way?
(22:21):
And things like that which can be additional stressors and
things that we are trying to I think we're getting
better at it now and as far as the workforce,
as far as what I've seen over the years, but
there's we're so far away from really that whole. Am
I going to get paid while I'm gone? Am I
(22:41):
going to have to worry about that now that I'm
having another baby? Why do you why is it so important?
I would say important as people like you myself as
a radio host to support those communities, and how can
we better support the communities that need more more care
(23:04):
through the paranatal situations.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I think it's important because this is the majority of
the people that we know have some kind of need
that impacts their ability to show up as a parent.
And so if we're proactive rather than reactive, we're proactive
about making sure people are set up with everything that
they need before they even enter that transitional period of
(23:29):
having a baby, then we can feel more confident that
they can show up and do whatever it is that
it takes to navigate that transition. I think that I'm
trying to kind of touch on all of the parts
of that question, but I think what we can do
is to continue to advocate for the kinds of systems
(23:50):
change that's necessary, including making sure that parental leave is
prioritized and protected for both parents, right because oftentimes moms
are kind of observed and seen as the primary parent
went off and dads are right there at their side
as well, and sometimes dad is the primary caregiver in
the home, and so they don't often have access to
(24:12):
as much leave in their job. And so that's just
one example of how we can really support and protect
people is by advocating for the system to really show
up for them. I also think about this audience here.
IHPE supports I'm pretty sure like more than ninety percent
(24:32):
of the medical recipients in the Inland Empire, and so
those folks, that's who we're talking about, and so really
starting to think more broadly about not only just preparing
for the big day, the day that you give birth,
but to be preparing for beyond that, like do you
have stable housing, do you have access to insurance and healthcare? Thankfully,
(24:55):
there's been some policy that was passed in the last
few years that's suppor or its fokesability to keep their
medical for the for twelve months after birth, and so
that's wonderful. I did not get covered. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah.
And so then that also ties into if you're experiencing
if you if you experience mental health challenges, then you
(25:16):
can hopefully go get some support for that and have
that covered. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah. I always feel like one of the big things
we talk about is having an advocate for yourself, you know,
and whatever that might be somebody, your mother, your your
best friend, you know, just any anybody that you know
you can take with you two different appointments that can
always be your little advocate along the way. I feel
(25:41):
like now, whenever I know I'm about to undergo something
that's very important, I tell somebody so that that person
can also check in with me later. Like I always
feel like it's important for at least one touch point,
and that could be in anything, you know, not necessarily
with health, but like other things that I'm maybe going
through or working with through or something, And I feel
(26:02):
like that's so important in this situation too. You talked
about like having a plan right knowing are you going
to have housing, are you going to have you know,
medical care for yourself, but also maybe a trusted person
an advocate that could be in your corner to also
help you navigate those through those things. What are some
common misconceptions I know, I think we talked on a
(26:23):
little bit of those, but what are some pretty common
misconceptions about parental mental health in general, pre or.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Post Yeah, so there are a lot, Yeah, but I
bet that's what keeps me in my job. But I
definitely one of the ones that is really important for
us to keep driving home is that it's not just
about moms that dads and partners also experience, Queer families
are impacted by We're not just talking about mothers. But
(26:55):
what's also really important is that the I think we
were starting to kind of go towards this direction a
little bit ago, but there's this way that people have
kind of labeled perinatal depression as the baby blues, which
the baby blues is just that kind of two week
transition period after you give birth. If it's six months
(27:17):
postpartum and you're still not feeling like yourself, that's not
the baby blues. There's there's likely something else more serious
going on. And so I can't tell you how many
times I've been working with moms and they come to
tell me, yeah, I told my ob gyn that, you know,
I schedule an appointment and it was, you know, four
or five, six months postpartum, and the my doctor just
(27:38):
told me, oh, it's just the baby blues. Go home
and get some rest, you'll be okay. And and I
just I'm like, no, no, don't clive them away. And
so they're telling you no, I know. And that's the thing,
like how much courage and even energy sometimes it takes
to make that first phone call is a lot, and
so we can't miss those opportunities when people are actually
(28:00):
come to us for the help. Another misconception, and this
is one that I try to take every opportunity that
I can to really educate people, is that depressed moms
do not kill their babies. I know it's like really
hard for people to sit with that concept, but the
media has done a horrible job at depicting perinatal depression
(28:23):
and has kind of lumped it in with this very uncommon,
very acute, and specific condition called postpartum psychosis that is
not the same thing as postpartum depression. But what happens
is when the media says, you know, headline, depressed mom
kills baby, that then perpetuates that stigma that people feel
(28:45):
already with addressing their mental health and reaching out for
help if they feel like they're struggling. There's also a
kind of another kind of offshoot to that is there's
a condition called postpartum OCD, which oftentimes moms will experience
intrusive thoughts or they'll have like scary images of bad
(29:05):
things happening to their baby and they feel horrified by them.
But oftentimes, if you don't know what you're looking at,
or you don't know what you're experiencing. People just jump
to thinking that that's post partum psychosis and that means
that the outcome is going to be harmed to the baby,
when actually, if that's the case, if it's a true
(29:25):
post partum OCD and those intrusive thoughts are happening and
people the parent feels really bad about it, they're actually
more likely to experience suicidal thoughts than to actually harm
their baby. And so that's why it's so so so
important for us to get especially as clinical providers, to
get proper training. And if you feel like you're going
to your provider and they're just not listening to you,
(29:47):
don't give up. Find another one who does. There are
reproductive psychiatrists out there, there are trained therapists who know
and understand what they're looking for, because too often parents
just don't. Not only do they not get the help
that they need, but often you know, for example, in
that kind of situation, you know there's this real, real
fear of you know, child protective services being involved, and
(30:11):
you know, you hear the stories, and so of course
that's just a really big misconception that I always try
to take every opportunity to clear up is that, you know,
postpartum depression is not the same thing as postpartum psychosis,
and post partum psychosis is preventable and treatable. And so again,
if we are catching this early, where we know the
risk factors, the warning signs, then we can prevent a
(30:32):
lot of those really challenging and heartbreaking and really difficult
outcomes from happening.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
To begin with, yeah, yeah, oh my god, I'm so
glad you touched on that because it is true. And
you know, I hope if somebody is watching this episode
or hearing this episode and you know, maybe struggling with
something what any type of that they now have like
a little tool in their you know, toolbox to go, Okay,
I need to go and see another doctor that will
(30:59):
listen to me and find another doctor. I mean, I
feel like that's the case with the most most things.
You know, when cancer patients also different kinds of diagnosis.
If you don't click with your doctor, find another one,
and that's okay. There is no shame in that, and
that's okay, And it is okay to be an advocate
for yourself. So well said so many things there with
(31:21):
the misconceptions because they're you're right, and the media does
do that, and you have to fully understand that there
are so many levels to mental health in general. Yeah,
what are some of the types of care that patients
can receive along the way, Like you talked about a
few things like therapy that are specialized. There are resources
(31:45):
I know here in the inlann Empire for people, how
do they find you if they want to see you?
Because you sound like you know a lot about this stuff.
What kinds of care can they go seek?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, well, you know, one of the biggest things that
I try to focus on is reducing isolation and like
helping people build out their community, because that is like
a I've heard someone say before, that's kind of like
a steroid for like challenges with your mental health. If
you are dealing with it on your own and you're
(32:16):
not talking to anybody about it, you don't have any
help for your situation. Like that just amplifies everything so much.
And so for parents, I try to really focus on
getting them out of the house, getting them connected with
other people who are in you know, maybe connected with
other parents who have kids that are similar age that
they can empathize with each other and normalize their experience,
(32:38):
so it doesn't always have to look like therapy. I
know there's still even a lot of stigma with going
the therapy and admitting that that that's something that you
want to do for yourself. I hope that someday we
are not there, but unfortunately we still are, and so
I try to think about, you know, what are some
other ways that people can feel really well supported that
maybe that's not the first the first approach, so support groups.
(33:01):
Support groups are really powerful. It's a kind of like
a middle ground. It's a way to build community. It's
not quite individual psychotherapy. If you don't feel like that's
the right fit or you're not ready for that. A
support groups are a space where you can really, you know,
kind of talk about all the things that you're navigating,
even get kIPS from other people for how you how
to deal with things like you know, I feel like
(33:23):
I I'm having so much trouble getting enough sleep, like
how do people how are you sleeping? Or you know,
I did have trouble with my breastfeeding. You know what
what lacktation consultant did you go see? That was really
helpful for you and you can kind of share that
wisdom with each other and really not feel so alone
in what you're what you're experiencing. You are asked, yeah, exactly, yeah,
(33:48):
and you were asking about some of the specific resources
in the area. There's actually a support group that's run
out of Pomona Valley Hospital with a colleague of mine
Nayeli's Sydney Corona, Zitney Nilely Corona, Zitney. And that's a
completely free virtual support group that folks can access. I
(34:09):
know that the Department of Public Health per Neatal Equity
Initiative just recently some release an RFP and have a
couple of programs that are in the IE to deliver
maternal mental health services in the area, So that's forthcoming.
One of the most commonly known resources is Post produm
(34:30):
Support International. That's where you can get information and education
about par mental health conditions. You can if you have
a prescriber, like perhaps you are on a medication, or
your prescriber wants to prescribe you medication, but they don't
necessarily feel like they have enough training or comfort with
prescribing during pregnancy or while you're lack pating. Post front
(34:53):
of Support International has a consultation line for prescribers so
that they can call and get consultation on how to
navigate your medication during pregnancy. Ampla's part of and so
oftentimes it's it's not as easy to just go find
a reproductive psychiatrist, but you can give your prescriber that
number to have them get some education and guidance on
(35:15):
how to work with you.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
That's amazing. That's that's really cool because you don't think
about that kind of stuff. You don't think about, Hey,
I'm gonna give this phone number to my doctor so
that my doctor can get some more information about this.
That's I'm hard. Why not? Yeah, that's what it is.
It's the key right there. Oh, I love that. Can
we talk a tiny bit about social media? So social
(35:38):
media obviously likes to paint a beautiful picture of of
the way the realities of pregnancies. How can people stay
above the noise when we know social Okay, I know,
we you and I we know social media is not real.
Some of some people do show their real life in
(35:59):
the in the trend, but a lot of people don't
and it could make us feel bad, right, and we
see it with our teenagers. We see it with all
of that, what are some really great ways to say
above the noise but also utilize these platforms for support?
Are there ways to do it that way?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Who? With social media? Clearly we have a bit of
a contentious relationship. No I. I. It's actually one of
the first areas I tackle with my clients and we
talk about, Okay, who are you following? How much time
are you spending scrolling while you are feeding your baby
at two am? What kind of information is catching your eye?
(36:40):
And what kind of you know, spirals are you going
on do scrolling girls that you're seeing exactly? And not
to say you've got to cut it off completely, because
that's it is. It is an abundant source of information
for so many people, a way for people to connect
with other people in their stories to see like maybe
if it is too and I feel like this is
(37:01):
never ending, I feel all alone, and you see just
that one story that you needed to see and to
know that I'll be okay, And you know, just because
I'm feeling bad right now, it doesn't mean I'll feel
like this forever. That is absolutely a beautiful use of
some parts of social media, And so what we talk
about is how do we have really healthy boundaries. How
(37:22):
do we learn how to discern what's useful, what can
I actually apply to my situation, and how do I
let go of the stuff that isn't that doesn't apply
with me or it isn't realistic, And how do I
discern and know what maybe is within the realm of
normal experiences and what maybe has been filtered or distorted
(37:45):
in not such a healthy way. Because social media does
do a lot to kind of condition people to think
that motherhood looks like, you know, the sunshine and rainbows,
and there are days it does. It does, of course
it does, and they're the mom who's you know, pumping
for days and days trying to get you know, even
(38:08):
just an ounce of milk. That stuff doesn't make it
on social media, but oftentimes that is the reality of
what's happening behind the screen. And so yeah, we just
kind of talk about how do I have healthy bounties?
How do I notice, like how do I start to
notice what state of mind am I in before I
start to scroll? Like is it that maybe I actually
(38:28):
need to do something to take care of myself. Maybe
it's time for me to just go for a walk
because I'm feeling like real kind of overwhelmed in this environment.
Maybe the baby's maybe's been crying a lot today. Maybe
instead of sitting on my phone and scrolling and kind
of checking out, maybe I try first to go for
a walk and then I come back and give myself
(38:49):
some scrolling time, maybe even putting a time limit. Sometimes
we'll say, okay, you get ten minutes of scrolling time
per hours, so you set your time or you get
ten minutes, and then put it down and let's go
do something else. And so that we can really kind
of have a little more control over what we're what
we're reading, what we're exposed to. And then if we
(39:10):
do notice that, oh I've been growing a lot, putting
aside shame and guilt, giving ourselves grace and compassion, and
perhaps even introducing some like mantras or positive messages to
tell ourselves, like, you know what, I'm a good mom.
You know what, my baby is fed, my baby is safe,
(39:33):
my baby has you know a mom that loves them.
That's enough for today.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
That's good. Yeah, that's winning.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Yeah. So that's kind of the approach and what I
recommend to folks around having healthy relationships with I love.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, I love that you said, like that's one of
the first things we talked about, because you know what,
we're all so wrapped up in it, we really really are.
I had to have a talk with my friend and
tell her need to change your algorithm. So I sat
there with her and we went through and I was like,
look at here's some sites that are very positive. And
I was like, you're gonna start We're gonna start liking
(40:11):
some of these things.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Because you're gonna start sending them in the group.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
You're gonna start looking at this s uff because it
does change your mind. You we are what we consume,
and so that becomes us. That's so funny. Are there
any social media handles that you like that you suggest?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, totally. One that comes to mind is actually a
local clinician. Her name is doctor kat Kaymi, and she
has the podcast mom and Mind. There are hundreds of
podcasts on there, and she interviews just so many different
people about so many different topics and she's just a
mama and a local clinician. And I love the kind
(40:52):
of information that she shares. So that's one that I
highly recommend. There's doctor Sarah Oric who is a reproductive
psychiatry and she's also the founder of m Vida Health
I think is I'm pronouncing that correctly, But she provides
a lot of really good information, clears up a lot
of misconceptions, and she's a psychiatrist, and so as it
(41:12):
comes to medications, and you know, what role does that
play and how do I find the right kind of provider?
I definitely recommend things that she shares. I would recommend.
Oh there's another clinician, doctor Zan I think her. Their
Instagram handle is the Mama Space the Mama Space and
(41:34):
they share a lot of different more culturally relevant uh
information about parantal mental health. And then of course post
Funum Support International I mentioned they also have a branch
that's specifically for people of color, so you can follow
both of those pages. And then an organization I used
to work for, Maternal Mental Health now is based in
(41:54):
Los Angeles County, also shares great information.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
That's great. That's a ton of great resources. Okay, did
we touch on all the things? I mean, like, I know,
we could talk for hours because I know you have
so many more things. I have talked to you extensively
about things before. Is there anything else that you want
to touch on before we move into the kind of
wrapping up the podcast today, What should other people keep
(42:21):
in mind?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
I did remember something that I wanted to share earlier
about like what kinds of services people can access, because
the work that I've been doing most recently is in
supporting in the like community based nonprofit space and supporting
doula work. And I think people underestimate the role of doulas.
And there's a lot of talk about you know, doulas
(42:42):
and introducing them into the birthing space and hospitals and
things like that, but doulas kind of really take a
holistic perspective and they're able to clear up any like
maybe fears that people have about their prayers. See, they're
there for emotional support and advocacy during birth. They're there
(43:04):
to teach you how to advocate for yourself, and they
really are another option that I don't want people to
underestimate as it really is to protecting and supporting wholeistic health.
So I wanted to throw that piece in.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
All Right, Well, this has been super informative, really really informative.
I feel like I've learned a ton. I know, we
can talk a lot more so, if you ever want
to share more with me, please reach out because we
are going to We're going to get into different avenues
of the paranatal mental health. But before we go, please
let's give our audience three key takeaways, the three key
(43:39):
things that you really hope they take to heart and
carry with them after this podcast.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
I'm going to borrow actually this statement that comes from
Post Partners that we're international. They put it on their
materials and just it just always stuck with me and
I appreciate it, and I use it a lot with
my clients, and they say, you know, you're not alone.
So we talked about that a lot today that you know,
even if you do find that you're feeling like not
like yourself, that if you're not alone in that there
(44:09):
are a lot of people who experience similar things. But
the second part of that is it's not your fault
that you can do. You can seemingly do everything right,
do everything that you know the social media moms told
you to do, and still you know, come to feeling
like you need some extra support, that's okay. And the
third part of that is with the right kind of help,
(44:31):
with the right kind of support, you can feel better,
and so I want people to feel encouraged that even
if you find yourself struggling with your mental or emotional
well being, that's okay. You there are people out there
who are ready to catch you and to hold you
and to guide you and to give you help you
to come up with the right recipe of supports for
(44:53):
you to start feeling like yourself again.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Beautifully said, Oh, three great aways. I love that. Thank
you so much, doctor Anna King for joining me today.
I think this this episode is really going to help
a lot of people. So I really hope we get
it in front of a lot of people, because everyone
needs to learn a little bit more about paring need
(45:17):
a health, mental health. Everyone, people who are not pregnant,
people who may be thinking about getting pregnant down the road.
Everyone needs. All ages need to know how to support
someone that is near and dear to them going through
some sort of mental health episode when it when it
comes to babies, when it comes to having having babies.
(45:38):
So thank you so much. I appreciate you until we
meet again.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Thank you so much, Evelin. It was a pleasure
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Covering Your Health
with EVELYNI Revas, presented by I EhP. I am so
happy to have you here for a very special episode.
I think is going to help a lot of people.
I say that all the time, don't I. I really do, though,
this is a very special episode. You know, since we
launched our sweet Little podcast, we've talked a lot about
(00:22):
the importance of mental health mental health education in particular,
and today's podcast is really getting back to the roots
of last season when we welcome doctor Paul McMahon and
my husband. We had them come to the mic and
talk about men's mental health. And then, you know, our
very first episode of our second season, we talked with
(00:44):
American idol Abby Carter. She shared her mental health journey
with us and her partnership with IEHP really just to
encourage young teens and adults to start that conversation when
they need that extra hand in manage the day to
day stressors in life. Mental health is focused in so
(01:06):
many parts of our podcast, and I love today's episode
because we're going to focus on the mental and emotional
wellness during pregnancy and postpartum with a wonderful guest you
are going to love doctor Anna King. Doctor King is
an Inland Empire based LIGHTNSED, licensed Clinical social worker, certified
(01:30):
paranatal mental health specialist, and qualitative research psychologists. Right lots
of big title names there. She's going to help us
dive into this very info driven topic from the misconceptions
associated with pre and postpartum depression, what signs to look
for and how to find your community. Let's get into
(01:54):
it and welcome doctor Anna King.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Welcome to Covering Your Health, a wellness podcast dedicated to
covering all areas of living a healthy and happy lifestyle,
from healthy hearts to understanding health plans and everything in between.
Each episode will provide you with a better understanding of
managing your health, preventative care, and staying on the right
path for your family's wellness journey. The Covering Your Health
(02:19):
podcast is presented by I e HP. Now your host,
Evelina Revez.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
All Right, welcome doctor King. Hello Anna, how are you.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I'm doing well. It's good to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It's so exciting. I have wanted you to be on
the show for quite some time, so here we are
in season two. I'm so excited to finally get to
have you on. Congratulations on. I know you put a
lot of effort and work into getting your PhD over
the last few years, so yay.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Go yes, yes, I'm loving this post p to D life.
Lots of lots more sleep.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh yeah, I imagine, right, yeah yeah, But now the
work begins, right like the real work in the field.
So let's get into it. Let's talk about you. Tell
me about how you decided this was going to be
your pathway. Did that start at a young age? Where
did it begin for you?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I don't know if it was necessarily a conscious decision.
It kind of just came to me, it unfolded. I
always like to say I followed the breadcrumbs. I always
knew every wanted to study psychology, probably since high school.
I started to get interested in it, and then whenever
I was in college. So my particular area of focus
is in par needal mental health. And so when I
(03:34):
was in college, I was I did an internship at
a halfway house for women who were in recovery from
substance use, and I would go to the local jail
to interview them folks who applied to our program and
try to negotiate them to have time off of their
sentence if they could come to our treatment program. And
(03:55):
through that, I started to really learn and understand maybe
more are implicitly the importance of protecting maternal mental health.
And then fast forward a bunch of years, got a
master's degree and started to work as a clinical social worker,
and I was in the hospital setting, uh, working in
the er and then later in the postpartum unit and
(04:16):
the neonatal intensive care units, and just really then started
to do a deep dive into understanding the massive transition
that folks go through as they start to introduce a
baby into their home, into their family, and what what
waves that creates and so through that I wasn't even
(04:37):
a parent yet myself, but I just found that I
was really passionate about making sure that folks had the
best experience that they could across that whole timeline, that transition.
And then I became a mom myself and experienced my
own mental health challenges in that transition. And and and
(04:58):
I think we'll talk about this a little bit today,
but you just I think a lot of people kind
of have this understanding or this kind of idea of
what that experience is supposed to look like, but oftentimes
in reality, it looks a lot different than what you expected.
And so I wasn't immune to that. And even though
I was a clinical social worker and I had gotten
(05:19):
trained in paranadal mental health, it didn't change how it
impacted me. And so once I did finally get trained
in paranatal mental health, I also realized that there was
a lot I didn't know before that, and that there
were a lot of gaps in my training that felt like, oh, like,
why didn't I know this already? And so then I
just it just set me on the path to being
(05:39):
able to teach other people about supporting and protecting the
mental and emotional needs of parents as they start to
you know, go through pregnancy and postpartum. And that's where
I'm at now.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, yeah, so you I love the way you said it.
You followed the breadcrumbs, So there were so many little
signs along the way leading you into this line of work.
So you can help more people navigate that road through
beginning motherhood and even you know, pregnancy and all of
(06:12):
those kinds of things and post pregnancy. So that's so
fascinating to me. I love that I find with a
lot of the guests on the show they do, there's
there's always like a signal. There's like a signal saying, hey,
this might be your way, maybe this might drive you.
And I feel like if you do those kinds of things,
you don't ever feel like you really work because you're
(06:35):
so happy in what you have found right along that way.
So a very interesting story, and I'm sorry that you
had to go through it too yourself to kind of
also find that calling as well. Let's talk about it.
Let's take a deep dive. Can you describe for people
who don't necessarily understand or maybe never even heard the
(06:55):
words perinatal mental health? What is it? And why is
it so important for us to learn more about it?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, so parenting of mental health is really the it's
a kind of a broad topic and there's a whole
lot of different kind of pathways that you can take
under meet that broader topic. But it's really looking at
the mental and emotional well being of folks who are
trying to get pregnant, so maybe they're on their fertility journey,
(07:25):
folks who are currently pregnant and navigating their gestational period,
and then folks who are as part of or who
have recently been pregnant or introduced the baby into their home.
So that also includes folks who maybe have adopted or
you know, had a loss, Folks who had a pregnancy
and lost that pregnancy, or had an infant and lost
that infant. There are a wide range of experiences under
(07:50):
that umbrella. We're also talking about more than just depression.
There are other conditions that people might experience if it
comes to the point that they start to experience symptom.
There's of course a paranadal depression, which is a more
commonly known kind of challenge that people might experience, but
there's also a range of anxiety disorders. Folks might experience trauma.
(08:14):
Birth trauma, or pregnancy can sometimes provoke or bring up
past traumas that people have experienced. Folks might experienced psychosis,
which is not common at all, but it is under
that umbrella paranatal mental health. And so yeah, it's really
talking about a whole lot of different things, but anything
that touches someone who is trying to get pregnant, thinking
(08:37):
about getting pregnant, currently pregnant, just being pregnant and the partners.
That's why we often use the broader term perinatal because
maternal is really focused on mother, but we also know
that fathers can also experience both part of depression and
then health changes during the parentatal periods. So yeah, perinatal
is like all encompassing.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, that's everybody, that cover all of us. Yeah, oh
my gosh, so fascinating. I think about like when the
just from the very onset, like finding out that you're pregnant,
the emotion that you get there right, sometimes it's joyous
for some people, it may not be. And then there's
that whole I mean, that process starts so early. And
(09:20):
I think one of the things that I didn't know
anything about, like I didn't think about people talk about
postpartum depression, but they don't talk about prepartum depression. And
I was like, oh my god, that's like that is
a thing because it really does begin at the onset.
It really can start right there as a trigger for
(09:40):
somebody or whatever that might be or might look like.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So Mental Health America estimates four million live births occur
annually in the United States, which is this number is
what really gets me. Six hundred thousand women experiencing perinetal depression.
So that's a massive number that is a huge, huge number.
(10:05):
What are some of the signs that non pregnant persons
can look at when maybe they see somebody in their
life struggling, because most likely we know someone who has
struggled through pregnancy or post pregnancy in all of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, absolutely, and I even want to offer that what
we've learned in research over the last couple of years
is that those numbers are actually a lot higher, and
it's for a few different reasons. There's the stressors that
have emerged through the pandemic. People are feeling much more
isolated and disconnected from their communities. I mean, we're starting
to work a little bit back towards that, but it
(10:46):
really had a huge impact on people, and especially you know,
economic instabilities and things like that. And so it's actually
in California, more like one in four people will experience
parenabal depression during pregnancy or postpartums. So I wanted to
just kind of name that that it's very real and
even what you said it makes sense because I think
(11:07):
about that well.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I was going to say, people don't report it too, right,
Like there's so many of us who don't seek treatment,
but no, something is happening in us I know I
went through that with my son. After my son was born,
I didn't even know what was happening to me until
he was six months old, and I felt like, in
a snap, I came out of a fog. And there's
(11:32):
no other way I could describe it to my husband,
to anybody. My husband noticed something was going on with me,
but he didn't know what it was. And it was
his first child, so we were both kind of just
navigating that road together. And I just think I never
went and sought treatment. I just I didn't. So I'm
a number that's not even being reported. So there's got
to be lots more like that.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Right, you're spoken like a true researcher. That is exactly
what I was going because I was number two. Is
that it's so underreported because there's also so much stigma too,
like not only do people not know what's going on
with them, they sometimes feel like shame for what they're
experiencing because you're supposed to be happy, like you just
got this bundle of joy and you should have a
(12:15):
glow and you should be joyous, and for a lot
of people that is not their experience. And so if
that's the case, then you know where can you feel
safe really speaking up and saying like, actually, I'm really
struggling here. And so you actually said one of the
more common presentations that I see in my practice is
that people are like, I don't know what's wrong, but
(12:35):
I don't feel like myself. It's really really common for
people to say they use that exact language like I
don't know something is wrong with me because I just
don't feel like myself. When am I ever going to
feel like myself? And so that's actually part of the
work is saying, well, I mean you've transformed into a new,
new being that on that day that baby was born,
a mother was born too, and so we have to
(12:56):
kind of rediscover who you are now and find our
way in this next chapter of your life. But it's
really common for people who are struggling with their mental
health to say like, there's something wrong with me. I
don't know what it is, but I don't feel like myself.
Maybe I'm going through the motions, or like you said,
I feel like I'm just in a fog, like I'm
disconnected from this experience of having this baby that I
(13:16):
do love. And that's the thing. Yeah, most people who
are experiencing challenges with their mental health. It does not
mean they don't have their baby, that they don't want
their baby. That is not what that equals. It just
means that they just don't feel good. They don't feel good.
And so those are really really common expressions of parinatal
(13:37):
depression that I've seen. The other thing that I always
like to teach people is that the nuance and this
is why it's so important for people who work with
pregnant and pust part of families to get training and
parinatal mental health specifically is because it often presents differently
than the traditional like major depressive disorder that people kind
of be a little more familiar with. In that parinatal
(13:59):
depression and is characterized often by this overwhelming feeling of anxiety,
like they're just feeling so overwhelmed with all the responsibility.
And irritability is another hallmark characteristic of perinatal depression. So
easy to anger, easy to feel frustrated, and have a
shorter fuse. Sometimes if you're seeing that someone is experiencing that,
(14:21):
you might want to just check in and say, hey,
how you doing, Or if you yourself are experiencing that,
maybe it's time to go get some help and some
extra support.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a clear not as necessarily clear,
but that is a sign. That is a strong sign
when you can tell the irritability in someone. Are there
other other signs that people could maybe if you know,
you your best friend just had a baby and you're
you know, when you're besties, you always feel like you're
connected to somebody, right, what what should we be looking
(14:53):
out for, if you know, just to keep you know,
these kinds of things in mind.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Oftentimes we focus so much on the baby's health and like,
how's the baby, how's the baby sleeping? How's the baby?
You know, adjusting is the baby? How's the baby's poop?
And it's like, how about you ask mom how she's pooping?
Because oftentimes that the poops are hard to come by,
and those baby and they can really take a toll
on your mental And so I say that ingest truly, yeah, truly,
(15:23):
we have to really turn our focus like that baby.
You can pretty much trust that that mom is taking
really good care of that baby. Dad as well is
taking really good care of that baby, But who's looking
after them? So really paying attention to how they're adjusting.
It's normal. It's totally normal to be like really overwhelmed
(15:45):
and need a period of time for adjustment because everything's new.
You're not sleeping, you're covered in milk, somebody's milk, some
kind of milk, you're covered in excrements, like it's a
it's a really interesting time, and especially for families who
don't have a whole lot of support and they're kind
of just doing it on their own, and so just
really paying attention to how they're adjusting. And I really
(16:08):
appreciated that you were sharing in your story that you
didn't even realize until six months out that there was
something going on for you. Paranatal depression can emerge anytime
within the first year, and I think that it's really
important for people to realize that that often we're you know,
we're around and checking in in those first couple of weeks,
But what about when they're six months postpartum. What about
(16:30):
when they're nine months postpartum, which is actually the time
when folks will are more likely to experience maternal suicidal
thoughts is closer to the nine months postpartum period, And
so we can't forget to keep checking in our parents
and seeing how they're doing the other thing that can
sometimes be expressed is like these really intense feelings of
(16:51):
shame and like guilt, and like feelings of inadequacy, like oh,
I'm not a good mom, or you know, I could
only breastfeed for two weeks, I'm not a good mom.
So listening for that can sometimes queue you into to
someone who might be struggling with their mental health. Just
an opportunity for you to open a conversation and say, hey,
you know, it's it's normal to feel like this is
(17:13):
a lot to hold and how can I be there
for you? How can I support you? Do you want
to talk or do you not want to talk? Do
you just want me to sit here and be with you?
So those are some things that come to mind.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Those are perfect, Those those are those are very clear,
and I think you're so so right. I had this conversation.
So I have three kids, and I remember after my
third child, I was like, I am not going to
do the things that I always do and put this
super stress on breastfeeding, on all these things. Of course
(17:48):
I want a breastfeed, right, But I struggled so hard
through it, and I had a nurse who was really
rough on me and I you know, but that's the thing,
and I know that they mean well, so I understood that,
you know, I know they mean well, they really want
your baby to get the most. But I couldn't do it,
and I was done. And I remember being like, I
(18:10):
am done, and my husband, thank God, knew she is done,
and I'm going to get a bottle, like you know,
this is where we're going, right, And that was really honestly,
that's exactly what I needed him to do. So with
my third I remember going not doing it to myself.
I'm gonna do what is best for me at that moment,
and that is enjoy this baby and every second I can.
(18:34):
So you but you learn that because of things that
happened to you. It was kind of traumatic what was
going on in my life with my son, and I
didn't know how bad I was struggling with that until
like later, right, that's when I knew. So I think
about that, and I think about how we have to
take our babies, like you had said, to every doctor's
appointment for like the first you know, so many weeks,
(18:56):
you're there, You're there always, always, it's checking, it's checking.
No one asked you like, are you still sore? Are you?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Are you okay? You know, there's the there's the very
personal things. Are you still losing a lot of blood?
Are you Those kinds of things that we don't talk about,
and I feel like we're we're missing that element here, right,
And that's why I'm so grateful for you and people
in your line of work that are trying to be
(19:24):
out there and educate these other the doctors. I know
you educate doctors on these kinds of things because it's
so great to be great at your job, but if
you don't have the bedside manner in which to treat
the mom as a whole person, it's so hard. It
is so it's so challenging. So I'm so grateful to
(19:44):
have you here. Let's let's talk about you were talking
about how dads are affected, right, can be affected? So
since it can be an effect on the dad, let's
talk about socioeconomic situations too.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We see that this peri neeedle depression happens a lot
more with people in a lower economic situation. Why do
you think that that is?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Well, you know, there's a lot of research and there's
a lot of ways that we kind of look at
so I'll use your terminology you were saying, looking at
the person as a whole person. Right. Oftentimes, when folks
go to the doctor, they go to their obgyn, or
they go to the pediatrician, which I love that you
(20:32):
were talking about the opportunities we have in the pediatric
office because they're seeing them all whole, not often a
lot more often than the ob do I N. But
when they go they are often being treated or they're
the provider is addressing one small piece of who they are.
But we forget that in order for them to even
(20:55):
come to the doctor, they have to have insurance, and
then that insurance has to cover their visit, and they
have to have transportation, and they have to have childcare.
Can they bring their baby to that doctor's appointment? Do
they have other children that they need looked after so
that they can come to that doctor's appointment? Is it
(21:16):
a matter of can I pay for this doctor's bill
or afford my groceries for the month? And so when
we think about folks who don't have access to even
just the basic of necessities, it kind of goes without
saying that that can have a way that can carry
or hold a load on your mental health. It can
really impact the way that you are able to cope
(21:39):
with just life. And so when you compound that with
now I have a baby that I have to make
sure that I have, I have everything I need to
take care of them, then that absolutely can increase the
risk that they might develop parantal depression.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And I think also, you know when you find out
you're pregnant, that there's other things that happen, Like, let's
say you are very important to your job, right, There's
things like that that play into a role, and like
I'm going to have to take time off, right, I
need to be with my baby. Does your job offer it?
Does your job support you in your new family way?
(22:21):
And things like that which can be additional stressors and
things that we are trying to I think we're getting
better at it now and as far as the workforce,
as far as what I've seen over the years, but
there's we're so far away from really that whole. Am
I going to get paid while I'm gone? Am I
(22:41):
going to have to worry about that now that I'm
having another baby? Why do you why is it so important?
I would say important as people like you myself as
a radio host to support those communities, and how can
we better support the communities that need more more care
(23:04):
through the paranatal situations.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I think it's important because this is the majority of
the people that we know have some kind of need
that impacts their ability to show up as a parent.
And so if we're proactive rather than reactive, we're proactive
about making sure people are set up with everything that
they need before they even enter that transitional period of
(23:29):
having a baby, then we can feel more confident that
they can show up and do whatever it is that
it takes to navigate that transition. I think that I'm
trying to kind of touch on all of the parts
of that question, but I think what we can do
is to continue to advocate for the kinds of systems
(23:50):
change that's necessary, including making sure that parental leave is
prioritized and protected for both parents, right because oftentimes moms
are kind of observed and seen as the primary parent
went off and dads are right there at their side
as well, and sometimes dad is the primary caregiver in
the home, and so they don't often have access to
(24:12):
as much leave in their job. And so that's just
one example of how we can really support and protect
people is by advocating for the system to really show
up for them. I also think about this audience here.
IHPE supports I'm pretty sure like more than ninety percent
(24:32):
of the medical recipients in the Inland Empire, and so
those folks, that's who we're talking about, and so really
starting to think more broadly about not only just preparing
for the big day, the day that you give birth,
but to be preparing for beyond that, like do you
have stable housing, do you have access to insurance and healthcare? Thankfully,
(24:55):
there's been some policy that was passed in the last
few years that's suppor or its fokesability to keep their
medical for the for twelve months after birth, and so
that's wonderful. I did not get covered. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah.
And so then that also ties into if you're experiencing
if you if you experience mental health challenges, then you
(25:16):
can hopefully go get some support for that and have
that covered. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah. I always feel like one of the big things
we talk about is having an advocate for yourself, you know,
and whatever that might be somebody, your mother, your your
best friend, you know, just any anybody that you know
you can take with you two different appointments that can
always be your little advocate along the way. I feel
(25:41):
like now, whenever I know I'm about to undergo something
that's very important, I tell somebody so that that person
can also check in with me later. Like I always
feel like it's important for at least one touch point,
and that could be in anything, you know, not necessarily
with health, but like other things that I'm maybe going
through or working with through or something, And I feel
(26:02):
like that's so important in this situation too. You talked
about like having a plan right knowing are you going
to have housing, are you going to have you know,
medical care for yourself, but also maybe a trusted person
an advocate that could be in your corner to also
help you navigate those through those things. What are some
common misconceptions I know, I think we talked on a
(26:23):
little bit of those, but what are some pretty common
misconceptions about parental mental health in general, pre or.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Post Yeah, so there are a lot, Yeah, but I
bet that's what keeps me in my job. But I
definitely one of the ones that is really important for
us to keep driving home is that it's not just
about moms that dads and partners also experience, Queer families
are impacted by We're not just talking about mothers. But
(26:55):
what's also really important is that the I think we
were starting to kind of go towards this direction a
little bit ago, but there's this way that people have
kind of labeled perinatal depression as the baby blues, which
the baby blues is just that kind of two week
transition period after you give birth. If it's six months
(27:17):
postpartum and you're still not feeling like yourself, that's not
the baby blues. There's there's likely something else more serious
going on. And so I can't tell you how many
times I've been working with moms and they come to
tell me, yeah, I told my ob gyn that, you know,
I schedule an appointment and it was, you know, four
or five, six months postpartum, and the my doctor just
(27:38):
told me, oh, it's just the baby blues. Go home
and get some rest, you'll be okay. And and I
just I'm like, no, no, don't clive them away. And
so they're telling you no, I know. And that's the thing,
like how much courage and even energy sometimes it takes
to make that first phone call is a lot, and
so we can't miss those opportunities when people are actually
(28:00):
come to us for the help. Another misconception, and this
is one that I try to take every opportunity that
I can to really educate people, is that depressed moms
do not kill their babies. I know it's like really
hard for people to sit with that concept, but the
media has done a horrible job at depicting perinatal depression
(28:23):
and has kind of lumped it in with this very uncommon,
very acute, and specific condition called postpartum psychosis that is
not the same thing as postpartum depression. But what happens
is when the media says, you know, headline, depressed mom
kills baby, that then perpetuates that stigma that people feel
(28:45):
already with addressing their mental health and reaching out for
help if they feel like they're struggling. There's also a
kind of another kind of offshoot to that is there's
a condition called postpartum OCD, which oftentimes moms will experience
intrusive thoughts or they'll have like scary images of bad
(29:05):
things happening to their baby and they feel horrified by them.
But oftentimes, if you don't know what you're looking at,
or you don't know what you're experiencing. People just jump
to thinking that that's post partum psychosis and that means
that the outcome is going to be harmed to the baby,
when actually, if that's the case, if it's a true
(29:25):
post partum OCD and those intrusive thoughts are happening and
people the parent feels really bad about it, they're actually
more likely to experience suicidal thoughts than to actually harm
their baby. And so that's why it's so so so
important for us to get especially as clinical providers, to
get proper training. And if you feel like you're going
to your provider and they're just not listening to you,
(29:47):
don't give up. Find another one who does. There are
reproductive psychiatrists out there, there are trained therapists who know
and understand what they're looking for, because too often parents
just don't. Not only do they not get the help
that they need, but often you know, for example, in
that kind of situation, you know there's this real, real
fear of you know, child protective services being involved, and
(30:11):
you know, you hear the stories, and so of course
that's just a really big misconception that I always try
to take every opportunity to clear up is that, you know,
postpartum depression is not the same thing as postpartum psychosis,
and post partum psychosis is preventable and treatable. And so again,
if we are catching this early, where we know the
risk factors, the warning signs, then we can prevent a
(30:32):
lot of those really challenging and heartbreaking and really difficult
outcomes from happening.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
To begin with, yeah, yeah, oh my god, I'm so
glad you touched on that because it is true. And
you know, I hope if somebody is watching this episode
or hearing this episode and you know, maybe struggling with
something what any type of that they now have like
a little tool in their you know, toolbox to go, Okay,
I need to go and see another doctor that will
(30:59):
listen to me and find another doctor. I mean, I
feel like that's the case with the most most things.
You know, when cancer patients also different kinds of diagnosis.
If you don't click with your doctor, find another one,
and that's okay. There is no shame in that, and
that's okay, And it is okay to be an advocate
for yourself. So well said so many things there with
(31:21):
the misconceptions because they're you're right, and the media does
do that, and you have to fully understand that there
are so many levels to mental health in general. Yeah,
what are some of the types of care that patients
can receive along the way, Like you talked about a
few things like therapy that are specialized. There are resources
(31:45):
I know here in the inlann Empire for people, how
do they find you if they want to see you?
Because you sound like you know a lot about this stuff.
What kinds of care can they go seek?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, well, you know, one of the biggest things that
I try to focus on is reducing isolation and like
helping people build out their community, because that is like
a I've heard someone say before, that's kind of like
a steroid for like challenges with your mental health. If
you are dealing with it on your own and you're
(32:16):
not talking to anybody about it, you don't have any
help for your situation. Like that just amplifies everything so much.
And so for parents, I try to really focus on
getting them out of the house, getting them connected with
other people who are in you know, maybe connected with
other parents who have kids that are similar age that
they can empathize with each other and normalize their experience,
(32:38):
so it doesn't always have to look like therapy. I
know there's still even a lot of stigma with going
the therapy and admitting that that that's something that you
want to do for yourself. I hope that someday we
are not there, but unfortunately we still are, and so
I try to think about, you know, what are some
other ways that people can feel really well supported that
maybe that's not the first the first approach, so support groups.
(33:01):
Support groups are really powerful. It's a kind of like
a middle ground. It's a way to build community. It's
not quite individual psychotherapy. If you don't feel like that's
the right fit or you're not ready for that. A
support groups are a space where you can really, you know,
kind of talk about all the things that you're navigating,
even get kIPS from other people for how you how
to deal with things like you know, I feel like
(33:23):
I I'm having so much trouble getting enough sleep, like
how do people how are you sleeping? Or you know,
I did have trouble with my breastfeeding. You know what
what lacktation consultant did you go see? That was really
helpful for you and you can kind of share that
wisdom with each other and really not feel so alone
in what you're what you're experiencing. You are asked, yeah, exactly, yeah,
(33:48):
and you were asking about some of the specific resources
in the area. There's actually a support group that's run
out of Pomona Valley Hospital with a colleague of mine
Nayeli's Sydney Corona, Zitney Nilely Corona, Zitney. And that's a
completely free virtual support group that folks can access. I
(34:09):
know that the Department of Public Health per Neatal Equity
Initiative just recently some release an RFP and have a
couple of programs that are in the IE to deliver
maternal mental health services in the area, So that's forthcoming.
One of the most commonly known resources is Post produm
(34:30):
Support International. That's where you can get information and education
about par mental health conditions. You can if you have
a prescriber, like perhaps you are on a medication, or
your prescriber wants to prescribe you medication, but they don't
necessarily feel like they have enough training or comfort with
prescribing during pregnancy or while you're lack pating. Post front
(34:53):
of Support International has a consultation line for prescribers so
that they can call and get consultation on how to
navigate your medication during pregnancy. Ampla's part of and so
oftentimes it's it's not as easy to just go find
a reproductive psychiatrist, but you can give your prescriber that
number to have them get some education and guidance on
(35:15):
how to work with you.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
That's amazing. That's that's really cool because you don't think
about that kind of stuff. You don't think about, Hey,
I'm gonna give this phone number to my doctor so
that my doctor can get some more information about this.
That's I'm hard. Why not? Yeah, that's what it is.
It's the key right there. Oh, I love that. Can
we talk a tiny bit about social media? So social
(35:38):
media obviously likes to paint a beautiful picture of of
the way the realities of pregnancies. How can people stay
above the noise when we know social Okay, I know,
we you and I we know social media is not real.
Some of some people do show their real life in
(35:59):
the in the trend, but a lot of people don't
and it could make us feel bad, right, and we
see it with our teenagers. We see it with all
of that, what are some really great ways to say
above the noise but also utilize these platforms for support?
Are there ways to do it that way?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Who? With social media? Clearly we have a bit of
a contentious relationship. No I. I. It's actually one of
the first areas I tackle with my clients and we
talk about, Okay, who are you following? How much time
are you spending scrolling while you are feeding your baby
at two am? What kind of information is catching your eye?
(36:40):
And what kind of you know, spirals are you going
on do scrolling girls that you're seeing exactly? And not
to say you've got to cut it off completely, because
that's it is. It is an abundant source of information
for so many people, a way for people to connect
with other people in their stories to see like maybe
if it is too and I feel like this is
(37:01):
never ending, I feel all alone, and you see just
that one story that you needed to see and to
know that I'll be okay, And you know, just because
I'm feeling bad right now, it doesn't mean I'll feel
like this forever. That is absolutely a beautiful use of
some parts of social media, And so what we talk
about is how do we have really healthy boundaries. How
(37:22):
do we learn how to discern what's useful, what can
I actually apply to my situation, and how do I
let go of the stuff that isn't that doesn't apply
with me or it isn't realistic, And how do I
discern and know what maybe is within the realm of
normal experiences and what maybe has been filtered or distorted
(37:45):
in not such a healthy way. Because social media does
do a lot to kind of condition people to think
that motherhood looks like, you know, the sunshine and rainbows,
and there are days it does. It does, of course
it does, and they're the mom who's you know, pumping
for days and days trying to get you know, even
(38:08):
just an ounce of milk. That stuff doesn't make it
on social media, but oftentimes that is the reality of
what's happening behind the screen. And so yeah, we just
kind of talk about how do I have healthy bounties?
How do I notice, like how do I start to
notice what state of mind am I in before I
start to scroll? Like is it that maybe I actually
(38:28):
need to do something to take care of myself. Maybe
it's time for me to just go for a walk
because I'm feeling like real kind of overwhelmed in this environment.
Maybe the baby's maybe's been crying a lot today. Maybe
instead of sitting on my phone and scrolling and kind
of checking out, maybe I try first to go for
a walk and then I come back and give myself
(38:49):
some scrolling time, maybe even putting a time limit. Sometimes
we'll say, okay, you get ten minutes of scrolling time
per hours, so you set your time or you get
ten minutes, and then put it down and let's go
do something else. And so that we can really kind
of have a little more control over what we're what
we're reading, what we're exposed to. And then if we
(39:10):
do notice that, oh I've been growing a lot, putting
aside shame and guilt, giving ourselves grace and compassion, and
perhaps even introducing some like mantras or positive messages to
tell ourselves, like, you know what, I'm a good mom.
You know what, my baby is fed, my baby is safe,
(39:33):
my baby has you know a mom that loves them.
That's enough for today.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
That's good. Yeah, that's winning.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Yeah. So that's kind of the approach and what I
recommend to folks around having healthy relationships with I love.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, I love that you said, like that's one of
the first things we talked about, because you know what,
we're all so wrapped up in it, we really really are.
I had to have a talk with my friend and
tell her need to change your algorithm. So I sat
there with her and we went through and I was like,
look at here's some sites that are very positive. And
I was like, you're gonna start We're gonna start liking
(40:11):
some of these things.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Because you're gonna start sending them in the group.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
You're gonna start looking at this s uff because it
does change your mind. You we are what we consume,
and so that becomes us. That's so funny. Are there
any social media handles that you like that you suggest?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, totally. One that comes to mind is actually a
local clinician. Her name is doctor kat Kaymi, and she
has the podcast mom and Mind. There are hundreds of
podcasts on there, and she interviews just so many different
people about so many different topics and she's just a
mama and a local clinician. And I love the kind
(40:52):
of information that she shares. So that's one that I
highly recommend. There's doctor Sarah Oric who is a reproductive
psychiatry and she's also the founder of m Vida Health
I think is I'm pronouncing that correctly, But she provides
a lot of really good information, clears up a lot
of misconceptions, and she's a psychiatrist, and so as it
(41:12):
comes to medications, and you know, what role does that
play and how do I find the right kind of provider?
I definitely recommend things that she shares. I would recommend.
Oh there's another clinician, doctor Zan I think her. Their
Instagram handle is the Mama Space the Mama Space and
(41:34):
they share a lot of different more culturally relevant uh
information about parantal mental health. And then of course post
Funum Support International I mentioned they also have a branch
that's specifically for people of color, so you can follow
both of those pages. And then an organization I used
to work for, Maternal Mental Health now is based in
(41:54):
Los Angeles County, also shares great information.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
That's great. That's a ton of great resources. Okay, did
we touch on all the things? I mean, like, I know,
we could talk for hours because I know you have
so many more things. I have talked to you extensively
about things before. Is there anything else that you want
to touch on before we move into the kind of
wrapping up the podcast today, What should other people keep
(42:21):
in mind?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
I did remember something that I wanted to share earlier
about like what kinds of services people can access, because
the work that I've been doing most recently is in
supporting in the like community based nonprofit space and supporting
doula work. And I think people underestimate the role of doulas.
And there's a lot of talk about you know, doulas
(42:42):
and introducing them into the birthing space and hospitals and
things like that, but doulas kind of really take a
holistic perspective and they're able to clear up any like
maybe fears that people have about their prayers. See, they're
there for emotional support and advocacy during birth. They're there
(43:04):
to teach you how to advocate for yourself, and they
really are another option that I don't want people to
underestimate as it really is to protecting and supporting wholeistic health.
So I wanted to throw that piece in.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
All Right, Well, this has been super informative, really really informative.
I feel like I've learned a ton. I know, we
can talk a lot more so, if you ever want
to share more with me, please reach out because we
are going to We're going to get into different avenues
of the paranatal mental health. But before we go, please
let's give our audience three key takeaways, the three key
(43:39):
things that you really hope they take to heart and
carry with them after this podcast.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
I'm going to borrow actually this statement that comes from
Post Partners that we're international. They put it on their
materials and just it just always stuck with me and
I appreciate it, and I use it a lot with
my clients, and they say, you know, you're not alone.
So we talked about that a lot today that you know,
even if you do find that you're feeling like not
like yourself, that if you're not alone in that there
(44:09):
are a lot of people who experience similar things. But
the second part of that is it's not your fault
that you can do. You can seemingly do everything right,
do everything that you know the social media moms told
you to do, and still you know, come to feeling
like you need some extra support, that's okay. And the
third part of that is with the right kind of help,
(44:31):
with the right kind of support, you can feel better,
and so I want people to feel encouraged that even
if you find yourself struggling with your mental or emotional
well being, that's okay. You there are people out there
who are ready to catch you and to hold you
and to guide you and to give you help you
to come up with the right recipe of supports for
(44:53):
you to start feeling like yourself again.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Beautifully said, Oh, three great aways. I love that. Thank
you so much, doctor Anna King for joining me today.
I think this this episode is really going to help
a lot of people. So I really hope we get
it in front of a lot of people, because everyone
needs to learn a little bit more about paring need
(45:17):
a health, mental health. Everyone, people who are not pregnant,
people who may be thinking about getting pregnant down the road.
Everyone needs. All ages need to know how to support
someone that is near and dear to them going through
some sort of mental health episode when it when it
comes to babies, when it comes to having having babies.
(45:38):
So thank you so much. I appreciate you until we
meet again.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Thank you so much, Evelin. It was a pleasure
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