February 25, 2025 • 26 mins
On today’s episode of Keeping Ashland Healthy, Dr. Ashley and the Boss dig into the power of our beliefs and how they can impact stigma and decision-making. They review an article about disturbing trends at the FDA in approving psychiatric drugs and spotlight a resource for youth, parents, and schools that de-mystifies vaping and electronic cigarettes. Questions? Visit the Board’s website at www.ashlandmhrb.org or call us at 419.281.3139
(Record Date: February 20, 2025)
(Record Date: February 20, 2025)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome. You're listening to the Keeping Ashland Healthy Podcast, a
podcast production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of
Ashland County, Ohio. Thanks for joining us. Welcome back to
another episode of Keeping Ashland Healthy in the studio with Me,
the Vibrant, the Smiley Doctor Ashley.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Good morning, boss, how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm doing well? Doctor Ashley warned me that you know,
you know, she got a little bit of a headache.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, this is not my best day. But we're gonna
We're gonna do our best here.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
On the We are powering through our audience demands content,
doctor Ashley. We have to provide them absolutely with meaningful content.
And boy, we have some pieces today I hope folks
will find useful. We are going to be talking about
several things. Uh first, you know, just as a reminder
(00:54):
of the Mental Health and Recovery Board here in Ashland County.
You know, we're here for you the community. You know,
mental health substance use issues may not be impacting you
directly now, but they they may a friend, family member,
or you in the future. Uh. So, you know, the
Board's really resourced, doctor Ashley. You know, folks can always
(01:17):
call us four one nine two eight, one three, one
three nine, or you know, work with our provider agencies,
apple Seed, the CADA in Catholic Charities. There are plenty
of other options for mental health substance use services in
Ashton County, but the Board ensures that folks that maybe
don't have insurance, are not working currently just need help.
(01:39):
We offer that sliding scale fee so that regardless of income,
folks can get the help that they might be looking
for through one of our three agencies. So yeah, so
you know, we we do this podcast on a regular
basis because a lot of folks are busy, uh, they
need more bite size information about mental health substance use
(02:00):
issues in Nashal County, in the area, and even the nation.
Sometimes we do national stories that might be I think
useful for folks here in National County. So hopefully you
can listen to the podcast while you're doing other things
and learn as you listen to doctor Ashley and myself.
And doctor Ashley is in charge of our community training
(02:20):
and education and programs and planning. She does it all
here at the board. Both of us are clinicians now
working more in administrative roles, but we love what we
do here at the Board, We're thankful to bringing you
this podcast, and thank you. I always appreciate the listeners
and the kind comments that we receive, and the nasty ones,
(02:44):
I just delete those, Doctor Ashley.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
First up in this one. You know, all of these
things are I find interesting. I hope the audience does
as well. An article by Richard Sears s E. A r. S.
It was posted on the Mad America site, which they
are friend of, the show why our beliefs about mental
illness are making stigma worse? And that really struck me,
(03:12):
doctor Ashley, because so much of what the Board has
tried to do over the last twenty plus years is
emphasize the importance on how we talk about things, in
the language that we use when we talk about things,
particularly mental health and substance use disorders.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Absolutely big, big focus for the board.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, so any article I see that really kind of
helps bring that out or affirm what the Board's been
doing always, uh, you know, draws my eye. So in
this particular piece, mister Sears talks about stigma as it
relates to how we talk about mental health and substance
(03:49):
use disorders. And again, as we've said before, you know,
the way we talk about, for example, if we talk
about someone's struggling maybe with a loss or a difficult
situation in their in their life in terms of using
medical language or jargon like chemical imbalances, brain disease, illness, disorder, disorder,
(04:15):
all those kinds of loaded terms actually increased stigma. And
that's what this study found. But when we frame it,
uh more in terms of challenges related to political or
economic instability, stigma goes down. Imagine that, so I think
all of us can relate and say, listen, I'm struggling.
(04:36):
I just lost my job, or I'm in between jobs,
or I was laid off, or you know, I'm in
a situation maybe overseas where there's political instability and I'm
leaving h and trying to get reoriented. So depending on
how we frame the challenges we're going through, it seems
like folks relate a lot better. But when in stigma
(05:00):
goes down. But when we make the person more like
the other using the medical jargon, stigma goes up. At
least that's what this piece found.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I think. Even so, they're talking at a socio political level,
but even at a community level or at an interpersonal level,
talking about you know, we're human and we have a
difficult time. Ye, we go through struggles, you know, and
that affects us. I think that that helps a lot,
you know, normalizing.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I'm glad you said that because Doctor Ashley, we do
a lot of trainings together, and we do a lot
of suicide prevention trainings are a qp R training which
we offer to anybody in the community no charge. You
always make a point of that, Doctor Ashley, and I
think that makes sense during that presentation you talk about,
you know, if you're helping somebody that's struggling, you don't
have to be an excerpt because guess what, you're a
(05:47):
human being and you've struggled as a human being, so
you can relate on that level because right, we all struggle.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I always say that. I say, you know, like, even
if you've never had a suicidal thought on your own,
you can understand what it's like to have a hard time, right,
and you can then empathize with that person. So I
think that's important and it's kind of the same thing
as this.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
It is and basically, and again we like to summarize
things here because the audiences their toleration, you know, this
is not the Rogan Show. We're not going to go
three hours, right so oh gosh, no, right right, well
at least not yet. Maybe one day, doctor Ashley, but
we need to come for your chairs for that. But
the findings in this particular piece suggests that, you know,
if we really want to start to combat stigma, we
(06:28):
just need to challenge perhaps that psychiatry's dominant model, which
is that medical model, and challenge some of those narratives
like we have been doing here in Ashland County of
chemical imbalances illness disorder. I always encourage folks to read
the Board's Three Legs of the Stool. We call it
our Human Community. It's a document that it's on our
(06:49):
website which all this will be linked in the episode description.
We talk about the importance of language and words and
all these concepts. So again, the Board's been on this
for some time, but the research continues to come out
that supports that focus in that emphasis.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So I love that this article was February eighteenth this year,
so it is very current.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
We do try to provide our audience with the current. Yeah,
cutting that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
We were head of the game on the boarder we were.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
We were and again again, so much of that goes
out to my mentor and former director Steve Stone, and
we both came to these convictions almost thirty years ago, now, doctor, Actually,
I hate to admit, you know, I mean, I started
when I was twelve, so obviously I'm forty you know,
only forty two. Yeah, No, anyway, we came to this
convictions a long time ago from other folks like us
(07:38):
that were just dissatisfied with the way the system was headed.
And yet I think our instincts in what we read
and the researchers at that time have proven to be
to be accurate. So doesn't mean that we still don't
have an uphill battle with trying to change narratives, but
I think where you are definitely headed in the right
direction and feel good about that. The next piece that
(08:02):
I want to draw it too, folks, attention again, we'll
link all of this in the episode description, so I
don't want you to worry about trying to take notes
while you're driving or exercising, walking, doing other things, so
this will all be linked. The next piece was on
psychiatric drug approvals questioned by researchers, and this was a
piece by Peter Simons and again at mad in America,
(08:23):
but psychiatric drug approvals. This really started to come to
light as the COVID pandemic drew to an end in
particular and the role of the FDA. I think it
was called Project Warp Speed was the name of trying
(08:44):
to get the various vaccines for COVID, and that was
a lot of energy by some of the pharmaceutical companies
to develop something and get it through the FDA. This
isn't specific to the COVID vaccines, but it is specific
psychiatric medications, and it really took a hard look at
(09:05):
the FDA in their approval process and you know, trigger
warring for the audience. This piece suggests that the FDA
has loosened kind of the approval standards to such a
degree that, for example, some of the studies they looked at,
you know, somebody trying to get a drug, psychiatric drug
(09:25):
now through the FDA process or the approval process, they
might do say six studies. In five of the studies
the outcome is the drug doesn't beat placebo, and one
it does, and that will be sufficient to get it
through the process. So obviously, for a lot of people,
I would think that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's a pretty low bar.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I think, yeah, so you know when we say, what
kind of evidence are we really talking about? And so
I appreciated the piece because it really starts to draw
attention because, let's face it, most of us don't follow
the f on a regular basis, and there's a high
degree I think of trust for a lot of folks
in the general public that if the FDA says it's approved,
(10:07):
it must work. In one of the things we've questioned
over the years is we can't just accept everything. There
is such a thing as good reputable science, and then
sometimes there's fast and loose science. An example that, in
my opinion, is, yeah, if you've got a bunch of studies,
more studies than not that say this particular substance doesn't
(10:29):
beat placebo, and then to approve it to say it
works without the general public knowing those other studies, which
they almost never know unless you really dig into it,
you're going to again not have the kind of informed
consent that this board and you and I are both
so passionate about. And what I mean by that fancy
(10:50):
term inforum consent is whether it's psychiatric medications or even
primary health, any kind of medication or treatment suggestion. You
have a right to know as much information before you
make a decision as is available reasonably available, and things
like this to me matter, So I think folks need
(11:11):
to know. Well, it didn't really beat placebo in five
or six studies, but there's one or two it did,
so it got approved on that basis.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, I think, yeah, because if a doctor's prescribing you
a medicine, you do have some like confidence in their
judgment in prescribing it to you, right, you trust them
in doing that. And if you don't know this information,
I mean, why would you would you question it? So
that's kind of scary, honestly it is.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
And it goes to you know, one of our underlying
themes has been to be careful, cautious, ask questions. Yeah,
when when you know people, I mean we run into
them a lot of events, whether it's our affairs, our trainings.
You know, I have these conversations with folks, and you know,
I'm trying to encourage them to ask these questions of
(11:57):
the people that they're seeing in our system, whether it's
one of our contract providers, are anybody that they're seeing
asking these critical questions. Is there right, and they should
do that. I want them not to feel strange about that.
And what do we say, doctor Ashley, if if you
feel uncomfortable maybe asking these questions of an m D
or a PhD or accounts are licensed person, take somebody
with you, have an advocate, a support person if that's
(12:19):
what's going to help you ask these questions. You know
your health matters and you deserve to get answers.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeahs ye.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So kind of the bottom line, uh, from mister Simon's
on this was the quality of evidence supporting psychiatric drug
approvals varied substantially in the studies that they looked at,
underscoring the need for increased clarity and consistent application of
FDA approval standards among drugs treating mental illnesses unquote. So
(12:49):
again we'll link to that piece in the in the
research that was behind it. But yeah, we need to
make sure if we have standards, and the standards need
to be set at a level that is robust. So
the standard can't be if one out of ten studies
beats placebo good enough, right, so we would like to
(13:10):
think a majority should beat place ebo.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So, and then are the standards that being enforced the
way they're set.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Up, and then I think having some accessibility to that
information for the public, you know, I think that that
would be also kind of taking that a step further,
like we should know, you know, if it's really not
been I don't know, validly researched or really research.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I don't know, doctor, have you ever like picked up
prescription medications and they put in that paperwork.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
The thing you throw away? Yep, yeah, doctor, I'm just
saying a lot of people don't even unfold that.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Well, it is eight font so it's hard to read.
It's a lot so I don't know if some of
this information is in there or not.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
But I don't think that like the like the studies
from it'll say FDA approval, but it doesn't warn you that,
like you know, one out of five you know, actually
had positive benefits or something so onside effects with you.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Maybe we'll see some changes coming at the FDA. Obviously
we've had an election recently, there's been a lot of
changes in leadership positions, so perhaps that'll be something we'll
keep an eye on that and we'll bring that to
the audience. If we actually start to see some changes
at the FDA.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
My last piece is from our good friend Brooks Seam,
and again i'll remind the audience Brooke is our keynote
speaker at this year's r SVP conference which is coming
up in just a few weeks March twenty six, that
will be at Ashland University at the Convocation Center. Brooke
(14:48):
is the author of Make Cost Side Effects, and she
blogs pretty regularly in post pieces that I follow, and
her latest piece was interesting. One of the things I
don't want to spoil it for those that are going
to sign up, because you've got to register because we
only have a limited amount of in person spots still left.
(15:08):
It's filling up quick, and we have plenty of zoom
options because it's a hybrid conference, so we will be
doing a live zoom, but if you want to be
there in person and get the soup, you need to
register quick. But one of the things I really like
about Brooke is she's so honest, whether it's in her
book or any of her blog articles about some of
(15:29):
the developmental impacts to her of starting medications at fifteen
and being on them for about fifteen years. So in
her most recent blog, and again we'll link to it.
You know, she talks about decision making and doubt and
having patience and being unsure and struggling through the decision
(15:55):
making process. The title of it was on Choosing thought,
not deciding Failure in advance. So, as Brooke is doing
a lot of work across the country on you know,
spreading the word about tapering from psychiatric medications and side
effects of medications and everything that she's gone through, she's
(16:17):
wrestling with maybe decisions that she's making in her forties
that maybe other people have made in their twenties. Right,
she feels like she's just had some delays in in
tackling some of these issues, and some of that is
due to the medications, and it's kind of it. It
really does impact the developmental process.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
For a lot of folks.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But you know, one of the things she emphasizes in
there is, you know, the same set of facts and
circumstances can look really different if we frame it and
we tell ourselves a different story around the same set
of facts, right and right, we know that, And this
goes back to the other piece we had earlier about
(16:57):
how you know the words we use. So Brook really
brings out and it's important how we frame things. So
the difficult time we might have but might be going through,
we can frame it as all negative, all difficult, But
we also can frame it is how is this helping
me and setting me up to be successful in future
challenges going forward?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Right? That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, So her framing and how personal she relates in
her blogs I think could be helpful to our listeners
and to other folks in general.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh yeah, I think that's kind of the beauty of
having Brooke as our speaker. I mean, she has, you know,
her own personal experiences that she's sharing about, and I
think there's value to that. You know, she's speaking from
a place of like she really does get it. Yeah,
I really like that.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah. She ended the blog by just encouraging us to
remember that there's sometimes there's power in waiting and not
rushing to make a decision, right, And she talked about
even though that might be the hard thing, maybe that's
the wise thing sometimes is the power waiting and timing
is timing is everything.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I think that might be hard for some of us,
but I like it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
And before we move on to the next piece, I
will say, if folks are following Brook on Instagram or
other platforms. I know she's got a new post on
Instagram where she talks through more about how she's trying
to get the word and the messaging out there. And
I feel this too, Doctor Ashley, since I've been doing
(18:29):
this a bit longer than Brook, sometimes it feels like it,
you know, we can say the same things. I've been
saying the same things for almost twenty years. Sometimes you
feel like the system, this huge system. You know, it's
not changing that much, but it really is. It's just
you have to look for it. But there's still a
long way to go, and it does take sometimes a
(18:50):
long time to change these big systems because we're not
doing it in a vacuum. There are other folks that
have bigger megaphones and a lot more resources. The National
Board saying the total opposite and saying, don't listen to
those guys. So it is a challenge, and I understand
sometimes folks get a little frustrated with the pace of progress,
(19:12):
but I'm still optimistic. And one of the things I
think Brooke points out is as she's pushing for, you know,
more education and change of systems, I think you have
to do that in the way that's also personally meaningful
absolutely to the person doing the work.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And I will say too, just to add to that,
I think the work that you're doing here and at
the state level, I think that really makes a difference too.
Like we and people might or might not know that
David is really an advocate in our system, and I
think like that work is super important. I'm thankful that
you're doing it and that I get to learn from you.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
But yeah, that's the work that we continue to do.
But I think that it is even in my time here,
I've seen that it's making a difference.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Well, no, I appreciate that feedback the board. You know,
before I was brought on as an executive director, I
tried to be as honest as I could with the board,
and again, most of them knew me for many many years.
They know my passion. You know, I work for them.
I obviously never want to put them or say anything
or do anything that doesn't redound to their them in
(20:19):
a positive way that I'm furthering the mission that they've
set me on. But they've always been very supportive of
what we're trying to do here, which is not accept
some of those kind of conventional medical model themes, and
that's why I love working here. As you know, is
a very special board. Ashton County is very special in
that we're constantly looking out, hopefully for the best interests
(20:39):
of the folks that receive services in our system. But
thank you for saying that. Well, last but not least,
you had come across a great resource. And this is
a local issue that is impacting. We've heard it from
our prevention gals, We've heard it from our superintendents, our schools,
our liaisons. And it has to do with vaping and cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, so you might wondering what is vaping first? What
is it? So, it's when you use a handheld electronic
device to breathe a mist or vapor into your lungs.
An e cigarette, vape pen or other electronic nicotine delivery
system heats a liquid of nicotine flavoring and then some
other stuff additive as they call it, and you inhale
(21:20):
it through a mouthpiece.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Right, So it's super safe.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
The people think because it's vape, they're like, oh, it's
just vapor. It's not as bad as it's Yeah, that's
what they think. Like, so they're comparing that to a
smoke to like cigarettes.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yea, but this is not true, right, So it actually
we don't know the long term damage of vaping yet
because it's not been around long enough to know that,
but we do know that it can be as dangerous
as as smoking.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Cigarettes, right. And also there's a lot of research saying
that people who start our young people who start vaping,
they eventually turn two cigarettes, so it's like, okay, way
to cigarettes. So I thought that was interesting. And we
are seeing a lot of a lot more locally shape
shops popping up, So I thought this was important to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Now I'm glad you reference it, you know, and again
we'll link to this website which had resources I thought
for three important groups of people. It had resources for
parents and then teens and schools.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, absolutely, so education and then resources if you are
seeing or you have a child maybe that is using
e cigarettes kind of what to do. I like that.
And also the risks and benefits of vaping, if there
are anyway benefit.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Not sure it talked about any benefits.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, yeah, I think they just say like people think
that it's safer, but really it's not. Some of the
problems caused by vaping can be asthma, permanent lung scarring,
like that's pretty serious organ damage. Addiction. So nicotine there,
there is nicotine in vapes, and so people sometimes think
(22:57):
because it's not a cigarette, it's not addictive, but it
actually is in the same way cigarettes. Yeah, second handing exposure.
We don't hear a lot about that, but it's the
same as with cigarettes. Second hand vape can impact your
health as well, just like secondhand smoke.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, I wonder you know, I don't know if you've
ever been behind somebody in their in their vehicle that's vaping. Yeah,
and sometimes they blow the vape out the window and
it's like this huge cloud.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, it's a client's crazy good.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That can't be good.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, I don't know. Have you Have you ever smelled vap?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Not really, to be honest with you, I'm not around
a lot of vape.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I mean it's been increasing for me. I've been around
some and it actually smells good, So, like I get
the appeal to it doesn't stink like cigarettes. You know
a lot of times it's cotton candy or strawberry.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Plowed and you know, my glade plugin smells good, but
everybody tells me that's bad. For me too.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh I hear that. Yeah, But so I think that's
that's a good point because because I know Brennan, my son,
he was talking about he would never smoke because of
how it smells. It smells terrible. Well, there's not that
kind of barrier to eat.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, that is an interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, I'm sure that was done intentionally by the folks
that have manufacturers more appealing.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, and you can take it in places and it's
not detectable like smoke. Interesting. Also explosions, I guess they
can explode and.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Actual devices themselves yeah wow.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And then some ingredients in e liquids are known to
cause cancer. Wow. So a lot of concerning effects and
we don't even know all of them yet.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah. Well one of the things I liked. You know,
something I'm give the audience maybe some examples of the
of the questions. You know, for like parents, they say,
are e cigarettes less harmful than regular cigarettes? How bad
is the e cigarette epidemic? And for teens, basic questions
what are they? Are they less harmful? What's the deal
(24:56):
with the flavored versus? What are the health risk? And
then for schools they talk about again impact on teens,
what should schools do to protect their students. So I
thought very practical subsections within each of those parents, teens
and schools major sections. So it could be a good resource.
And uh www dot long dot org slash quit smoking cigarettes.
(25:22):
But I'll link to all that.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, we'll have a lot, so if you're interested, so
you check that out.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Very good, very good. Well again for different pieces of
content we thought might be useful to folks in the county.
And as always, doctor Ashley, I appreciate you doing this
with me. And again we we have said before if
audience members have particular topics that they are interested in
us discussing, contact us that the four one nine two
(25:49):
eight one three one three nine are over through our website.
There's our we've got an email general email box that
folks can can access as well. All that'll be in
the episode description. And again for folks that are listening,
we thank you doctor Ashley. You know I'll be back
with you regularly with more content. Thank you, doctor Ashey,
Thank you, thank you for listening to another episode of
(26:11):
the Keeping Ashland Healthy podcast. The podcast is a production
of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of Ashland County, Ohio.
You can reach the Board by calling four one nine
two eight one three one three nine. Please remember that
the Board funds a local twenty four to seven crisis
line through Applese Community Mental Health Center. It can be
reached by calling four one nine two eight nine sixty
(26:31):
one one one. That's four one nine two eight nine
sixty one one one. Until next time, Please join us
in keeping Ashland healthy.
Welcome. You're listening to the Keeping Ashland Healthy Podcast, a
podcast production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of
Ashland County, Ohio. Thanks for joining us. Welcome back to
another episode of Keeping Ashland Healthy in the studio with Me,
the Vibrant, the Smiley Doctor Ashley.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Good morning, boss, how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm doing well? Doctor Ashley warned me that you know,
you know, she got a little bit of a headache.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, this is not my best day. But we're gonna
We're gonna do our best here.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
On the We are powering through our audience demands content,
doctor Ashley. We have to provide them absolutely with meaningful content.
And boy, we have some pieces today I hope folks
will find useful. We are going to be talking about
several things. Uh first, you know, just as a reminder
(00:54):
of the Mental Health and Recovery Board here in Ashland County.
You know, we're here for you the community. You know,
mental health substance use issues may not be impacting you
directly now, but they they may a friend, family member,
or you in the future. Uh. So, you know, the
Board's really resourced, doctor Ashley. You know, folks can always
(01:17):
call us four one nine two eight, one three, one
three nine, or you know, work with our provider agencies,
apple Seed, the CADA in Catholic Charities. There are plenty
of other options for mental health substance use services in
Ashton County, but the Board ensures that folks that maybe
don't have insurance, are not working currently just need help.
(01:39):
We offer that sliding scale fee so that regardless of income,
folks can get the help that they might be looking
for through one of our three agencies. So yeah, so
you know, we we do this podcast on a regular
basis because a lot of folks are busy, uh, they
need more bite size information about mental health substance use
(02:00):
issues in Nashal County, in the area, and even the nation.
Sometimes we do national stories that might be I think
useful for folks here in National County. So hopefully you
can listen to the podcast while you're doing other things
and learn as you listen to doctor Ashley and myself.
And doctor Ashley is in charge of our community training
(02:20):
and education and programs and planning. She does it all
here at the board. Both of us are clinicians now
working more in administrative roles, but we love what we
do here at the Board, We're thankful to bringing you
this podcast, and thank you. I always appreciate the listeners
and the kind comments that we receive, and the nasty ones,
(02:44):
I just delete those, Doctor Ashley.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
First up in this one. You know, all of these
things are I find interesting. I hope the audience does
as well. An article by Richard Sears s E. A r. S.
It was posted on the Mad America site, which they
are friend of, the show why our beliefs about mental
illness are making stigma worse? And that really struck me,
(03:12):
doctor Ashley, because so much of what the Board has
tried to do over the last twenty plus years is
emphasize the importance on how we talk about things, in
the language that we use when we talk about things,
particularly mental health and substance use disorders.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Absolutely big, big focus for the board.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, so any article I see that really kind of
helps bring that out or affirm what the Board's been
doing always, uh, you know, draws my eye. So in
this particular piece, mister Sears talks about stigma as it
relates to how we talk about mental health and substance
(03:49):
use disorders. And again, as we've said before, you know,
the way we talk about, for example, if we talk
about someone's struggling maybe with a loss or a difficult
situation in their in their life in terms of using
medical language or jargon like chemical imbalances, brain disease, illness, disorder, disorder,
(04:15):
all those kinds of loaded terms actually increased stigma. And
that's what this study found. But when we frame it,
uh more in terms of challenges related to political or
economic instability, stigma goes down. Imagine that, so I think
all of us can relate and say, listen, I'm struggling.
(04:36):
I just lost my job, or I'm in between jobs,
or I was laid off, or you know, I'm in
a situation maybe overseas where there's political instability and I'm
leaving h and trying to get reoriented. So depending on
how we frame the challenges we're going through, it seems
like folks relate a lot better. But when in stigma
(05:00):
goes down. But when we make the person more like
the other using the medical jargon, stigma goes up. At
least that's what this piece found.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I think. Even so, they're talking at a socio political level,
but even at a community level or at an interpersonal level,
talking about you know, we're human and we have a
difficult time. Ye, we go through struggles, you know, and
that affects us. I think that that helps a lot,
you know, normalizing.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I'm glad you said that because Doctor Ashley, we do
a lot of trainings together, and we do a lot
of suicide prevention trainings are a qp R training which
we offer to anybody in the community no charge. You
always make a point of that, Doctor Ashley, and I
think that makes sense during that presentation you talk about,
you know, if you're helping somebody that's struggling, you don't
have to be an excerpt because guess what, you're a
(05:47):
human being and you've struggled as a human being, so
you can relate on that level because right, we all struggle.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I always say that. I say, you know, like, even
if you've never had a suicidal thought on your own,
you can understand what it's like to have a hard time, right,
and you can then empathize with that person. So I
think that's important and it's kind of the same thing
as this.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
It is and basically, and again we like to summarize
things here because the audiences their toleration, you know, this
is not the Rogan Show. We're not going to go
three hours, right so oh gosh, no, right right, well
at least not yet. Maybe one day, doctor Ashley, but
we need to come for your chairs for that. But
the findings in this particular piece suggests that, you know,
if we really want to start to combat stigma, we
(06:28):
just need to challenge perhaps that psychiatry's dominant model, which
is that medical model, and challenge some of those narratives
like we have been doing here in Ashland County of
chemical imbalances illness disorder. I always encourage folks to read
the Board's Three Legs of the Stool. We call it
our Human Community. It's a document that it's on our
(06:49):
website which all this will be linked in the episode description.
We talk about the importance of language and words and
all these concepts. So again, the Board's been on this
for some time, but the research continues to come out
that supports that focus in that emphasis.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So I love that this article was February eighteenth this year,
so it is very current.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
We do try to provide our audience with the current. Yeah,
cutting that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
We were head of the game on the boarder we were.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
We were and again again, so much of that goes
out to my mentor and former director Steve Stone, and
we both came to these convictions almost thirty years ago, now, doctor, Actually,
I hate to admit, you know, I mean, I started
when I was twelve, so obviously I'm forty you know,
only forty two. Yeah, No, anyway, we came to this
convictions a long time ago from other folks like us
(07:38):
that were just dissatisfied with the way the system was headed.
And yet I think our instincts in what we read
and the researchers at that time have proven to be
to be accurate. So doesn't mean that we still don't
have an uphill battle with trying to change narratives, but
I think where you are definitely headed in the right
direction and feel good about that. The next piece that
(08:02):
I want to draw it too, folks, attention again, we'll
link all of this in the episode description, so I
don't want you to worry about trying to take notes
while you're driving or exercising, walking, doing other things, so
this will all be linked. The next piece was on
psychiatric drug approvals questioned by researchers, and this was a
piece by Peter Simons and again at mad in America,
(08:23):
but psychiatric drug approvals. This really started to come to
light as the COVID pandemic drew to an end in
particular and the role of the FDA. I think it
was called Project Warp Speed was the name of trying
(08:44):
to get the various vaccines for COVID, and that was
a lot of energy by some of the pharmaceutical companies
to develop something and get it through the FDA. This
isn't specific to the COVID vaccines, but it is specific
psychiatric medications, and it really took a hard look at
(09:05):
the FDA in their approval process and you know, trigger
warring for the audience. This piece suggests that the FDA
has loosened kind of the approval standards to such a
degree that, for example, some of the studies they looked at,
you know, somebody trying to get a drug, psychiatric drug
(09:25):
now through the FDA process or the approval process, they
might do say six studies. In five of the studies
the outcome is the drug doesn't beat placebo, and one
it does, and that will be sufficient to get it
through the process. So obviously, for a lot of people,
I would think that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's a pretty low bar.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I think, yeah, so you know when we say, what
kind of evidence are we really talking about? And so
I appreciated the piece because it really starts to draw
attention because, let's face it, most of us don't follow
the f on a regular basis, and there's a high
degree I think of trust for a lot of folks
in the general public that if the FDA says it's approved,
(10:07):
it must work. In one of the things we've questioned
over the years is we can't just accept everything. There
is such a thing as good reputable science, and then
sometimes there's fast and loose science. An example that, in
my opinion, is, yeah, if you've got a bunch of studies,
more studies than not that say this particular substance doesn't
(10:29):
beat placebo, and then to approve it to say it
works without the general public knowing those other studies, which
they almost never know unless you really dig into it,
you're going to again not have the kind of informed
consent that this board and you and I are both
so passionate about. And what I mean by that fancy
(10:50):
term inforum consent is whether it's psychiatric medications or even
primary health, any kind of medication or treatment suggestion. You
have a right to know as much information before you
make a decision as is available reasonably available, and things
like this to me matter, So I think folks need
(11:11):
to know. Well, it didn't really beat placebo in five
or six studies, but there's one or two it did,
so it got approved on that basis.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, I think, yeah, because if a doctor's prescribing you
a medicine, you do have some like confidence in their
judgment in prescribing it to you, right, you trust them
in doing that. And if you don't know this information,
I mean, why would you would you question it? So
that's kind of scary, honestly it is.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
And it goes to you know, one of our underlying
themes has been to be careful, cautious, ask questions. Yeah,
when when you know people, I mean we run into
them a lot of events, whether it's our affairs, our trainings.
You know, I have these conversations with folks, and you know,
I'm trying to encourage them to ask these questions of
(11:57):
the people that they're seeing in our system, whether it's
one of our contract providers, are anybody that they're seeing
asking these critical questions. Is there right, and they should
do that. I want them not to feel strange about that.
And what do we say, doctor Ashley, if if you
feel uncomfortable maybe asking these questions of an m D
or a PhD or accounts are licensed person, take somebody
with you, have an advocate, a support person if that's
(12:19):
what's going to help you ask these questions. You know
your health matters and you deserve to get answers.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeahs ye.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So kind of the bottom line, uh, from mister Simon's
on this was the quality of evidence supporting psychiatric drug
approvals varied substantially in the studies that they looked at,
underscoring the need for increased clarity and consistent application of
FDA approval standards among drugs treating mental illnesses unquote. So
(12:49):
again we'll link to that piece in the in the
research that was behind it. But yeah, we need to
make sure if we have standards, and the standards need
to be set at a level that is robust. So
the standard can't be if one out of ten studies
beats placebo good enough, right, so we would like to
(13:10):
think a majority should beat place ebo.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So, and then are the standards that being enforced the
way they're set.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Up, and then I think having some accessibility to that
information for the public, you know, I think that that
would be also kind of taking that a step further,
like we should know, you know, if it's really not
been I don't know, validly researched or really research.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I don't know, doctor, have you ever like picked up
prescription medications and they put in that paperwork.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
The thing you throw away? Yep, yeah, doctor, I'm just
saying a lot of people don't even unfold that.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Well, it is eight font so it's hard to read.
It's a lot so I don't know if some of
this information is in there or not.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
But I don't think that like the like the studies
from it'll say FDA approval, but it doesn't warn you that,
like you know, one out of five you know, actually
had positive benefits or something so onside effects with you.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Maybe we'll see some changes coming at the FDA. Obviously
we've had an election recently, there's been a lot of
changes in leadership positions, so perhaps that'll be something we'll
keep an eye on that and we'll bring that to
the audience. If we actually start to see some changes
at the FDA.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
My last piece is from our good friend Brooks Seam,
and again i'll remind the audience Brooke is our keynote
speaker at this year's r SVP conference which is coming
up in just a few weeks March twenty six, that
will be at Ashland University at the Convocation Center. Brooke
(14:48):
is the author of Make Cost Side Effects, and she
blogs pretty regularly in post pieces that I follow, and
her latest piece was interesting. One of the things I
don't want to spoil it for those that are going
to sign up, because you've got to register because we
only have a limited amount of in person spots still left.
(15:08):
It's filling up quick, and we have plenty of zoom
options because it's a hybrid conference, so we will be
doing a live zoom, but if you want to be
there in person and get the soup, you need to
register quick. But one of the things I really like
about Brooke is she's so honest, whether it's in her
book or any of her blog articles about some of
(15:29):
the developmental impacts to her of starting medications at fifteen
and being on them for about fifteen years. So in
her most recent blog, and again we'll link to it.
You know, she talks about decision making and doubt and
having patience and being unsure and struggling through the decision
(15:55):
making process. The title of it was on Choosing thought,
not deciding Failure in advance. So, as Brooke is doing
a lot of work across the country on you know,
spreading the word about tapering from psychiatric medications and side
effects of medications and everything that she's gone through, she's
(16:17):
wrestling with maybe decisions that she's making in her forties
that maybe other people have made in their twenties. Right,
she feels like she's just had some delays in in
tackling some of these issues, and some of that is
due to the medications, and it's kind of it. It
really does impact the developmental process.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
For a lot of folks.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But you know, one of the things she emphasizes in
there is, you know, the same set of facts and
circumstances can look really different if we frame it and
we tell ourselves a different story around the same set
of facts, right and right, we know that, And this
goes back to the other piece we had earlier about
(16:57):
how you know the words we use. So Brook really
brings out and it's important how we frame things. So
the difficult time we might have but might be going through,
we can frame it as all negative, all difficult, But
we also can frame it is how is this helping
me and setting me up to be successful in future
challenges going forward?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Right? That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, So her framing and how personal she relates in
her blogs I think could be helpful to our listeners
and to other folks in general.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh yeah, I think that's kind of the beauty of
having Brooke as our speaker. I mean, she has, you know,
her own personal experiences that she's sharing about, and I
think there's value to that. You know, she's speaking from
a place of like she really does get it. Yeah,
I really like that.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah. She ended the blog by just encouraging us to
remember that there's sometimes there's power in waiting and not
rushing to make a decision, right, And she talked about
even though that might be the hard thing, maybe that's
the wise thing sometimes is the power waiting and timing
is timing is everything.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I think that might be hard for some of us,
but I like it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
And before we move on to the next piece, I
will say, if folks are following Brook on Instagram or
other platforms. I know she's got a new post on
Instagram where she talks through more about how she's trying
to get the word and the messaging out there. And
I feel this too, Doctor Ashley, since I've been doing
(18:29):
this a bit longer than Brook, sometimes it feels like it,
you know, we can say the same things. I've been
saying the same things for almost twenty years. Sometimes you
feel like the system, this huge system. You know, it's
not changing that much, but it really is. It's just
you have to look for it. But there's still a
long way to go, and it does take sometimes a
(18:50):
long time to change these big systems because we're not
doing it in a vacuum. There are other folks that
have bigger megaphones and a lot more resources. The National
Board saying the total opposite and saying, don't listen to
those guys. So it is a challenge, and I understand
sometimes folks get a little frustrated with the pace of progress,
(19:12):
but I'm still optimistic. And one of the things I
think Brooke points out is as she's pushing for, you know,
more education and change of systems, I think you have
to do that in the way that's also personally meaningful
absolutely to the person doing the work.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And I will say too, just to add to that,
I think the work that you're doing here and at
the state level, I think that really makes a difference too.
Like we and people might or might not know that
David is really an advocate in our system, and I
think like that work is super important. I'm thankful that
you're doing it and that I get to learn from you.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
But yeah, that's the work that we continue to do.
But I think that it is even in my time here,
I've seen that it's making a difference.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Well, no, I appreciate that feedback the board. You know,
before I was brought on as an executive director, I
tried to be as honest as I could with the board,
and again, most of them knew me for many many years.
They know my passion. You know, I work for them.
I obviously never want to put them or say anything
or do anything that doesn't redound to their them in
(20:19):
a positive way that I'm furthering the mission that they've
set me on. But they've always been very supportive of
what we're trying to do here, which is not accept
some of those kind of conventional medical model themes, and
that's why I love working here. As you know, is
a very special board. Ashton County is very special in
that we're constantly looking out, hopefully for the best interests
(20:39):
of the folks that receive services in our system. But
thank you for saying that. Well, last but not least,
you had come across a great resource. And this is
a local issue that is impacting. We've heard it from
our prevention gals, We've heard it from our superintendents, our schools,
our liaisons. And it has to do with vaping and cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, so you might wondering what is vaping first? What
is it? So, it's when you use a handheld electronic
device to breathe a mist or vapor into your lungs.
An e cigarette, vape pen or other electronic nicotine delivery
system heats a liquid of nicotine flavoring and then some
other stuff additive as they call it, and you inhale
(21:20):
it through a mouthpiece.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Right, So it's super safe.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
The people think because it's vape, they're like, oh, it's
just vapor. It's not as bad as it's Yeah, that's
what they think. Like, so they're comparing that to a
smoke to like cigarettes.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yea, but this is not true, right, So it actually
we don't know the long term damage of vaping yet
because it's not been around long enough to know that,
but we do know that it can be as dangerous
as as smoking.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Cigarettes, right. And also there's a lot of research saying
that people who start our young people who start vaping,
they eventually turn two cigarettes, so it's like, okay, way
to cigarettes. So I thought that was interesting. And we
are seeing a lot of a lot more locally shape
shops popping up, So I thought this was important to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Now I'm glad you reference it, you know, and again
we'll link to this website which had resources I thought
for three important groups of people. It had resources for
parents and then teens and schools.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, absolutely, so education and then resources if you are
seeing or you have a child maybe that is using
e cigarettes kind of what to do. I like that.
And also the risks and benefits of vaping, if there
are anyway benefit.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Not sure it talked about any benefits.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, yeah, I think they just say like people think
that it's safer, but really it's not. Some of the
problems caused by vaping can be asthma, permanent lung scarring,
like that's pretty serious organ damage. Addiction. So nicotine there,
there is nicotine in vapes, and so people sometimes think
(22:57):
because it's not a cigarette, it's not addictive, but it
actually is in the same way cigarettes. Yeah, second handing exposure.
We don't hear a lot about that, but it's the
same as with cigarettes. Second hand vape can impact your
health as well, just like secondhand smoke.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, I wonder you know, I don't know if you've
ever been behind somebody in their in their vehicle that's vaping. Yeah,
and sometimes they blow the vape out the window and
it's like this huge cloud.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, it's a client's crazy good.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That can't be good.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, I don't know. Have you Have you ever smelled vap?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Not really, to be honest with you, I'm not around
a lot of vape.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I mean it's been increasing for me. I've been around
some and it actually smells good, So, like I get
the appeal to it doesn't stink like cigarettes. You know
a lot of times it's cotton candy or strawberry.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Plowed and you know, my glade plugin smells good, but
everybody tells me that's bad. For me too.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh I hear that. Yeah, But so I think that's
that's a good point because because I know Brennan, my son,
he was talking about he would never smoke because of
how it smells. It smells terrible. Well, there's not that
kind of barrier to eat.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, that is an interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, I'm sure that was done intentionally by the folks
that have manufacturers more appealing.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, and you can take it in places and it's
not detectable like smoke. Interesting. Also explosions, I guess they
can explode and.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Actual devices themselves yeah wow.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And then some ingredients in e liquids are known to
cause cancer. Wow. So a lot of concerning effects and
we don't even know all of them yet.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah. Well one of the things I liked. You know,
something I'm give the audience maybe some examples of the
of the questions. You know, for like parents, they say,
are e cigarettes less harmful than regular cigarettes? How bad
is the e cigarette epidemic? And for teens, basic questions
what are they? Are they less harmful? What's the deal
(24:56):
with the flavored versus? What are the health risk? And
then for schools they talk about again impact on teens,
what should schools do to protect their students. So I
thought very practical subsections within each of those parents, teens
and schools major sections. So it could be a good resource.
And uh www dot long dot org slash quit smoking cigarettes.
(25:22):
But I'll link to all that.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, we'll have a lot, so if you're interested, so
you check that out.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Very good, very good. Well again for different pieces of
content we thought might be useful to folks in the county.
And as always, doctor Ashley, I appreciate you doing this
with me. And again we we have said before if
audience members have particular topics that they are interested in
us discussing, contact us that the four one nine two
(25:49):
eight one three one three nine are over through our website.
There's our we've got an email general email box that
folks can can access as well. All that'll be in
the episode description. And again for folks that are listening,
we thank you doctor Ashley. You know I'll be back
with you regularly with more content. Thank you, doctor Ashey,
Thank you, thank you for listening to another episode of
(26:11):
the Keeping Ashland Healthy podcast. The podcast is a production
of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of Ashland County, Ohio.
You can reach the Board by calling four one nine
two eight one three one three nine. Please remember that
the Board funds a local twenty four to seven crisis
line through Applese Community Mental Health Center. It can be
reached by calling four one nine two eight nine sixty
(26:31):
one one one. That's four one nine two eight nine
sixty one one one. Until next time, Please join us
in keeping Ashland healthy.
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