December 17, 2024 • 38 mins
On the next episode of Keeping Ashland Health, Dr. Ashley and the Boss talk about the increased risk of marijuana toxicity in children, Brooke Siem’s podcast interview with Dr. Ellen Vora, and three great book suggestions for Christmas. Additional information about this issue and available support can be found at www.ashlandmhrb.org. To learn more or order the books discussed, search for “May Cause Side Effects” by Brooke Siem, “Bad Therapy” by Abigail Shrier, and “The Anxious Generation” by Johnathan Haidt. To learn more about children and the risk of marijuana toxicity, read “More little kids in Ohio are getting into marijuana edibles. Here’s how to keep them safe.” By Samantha Hendrickson and Brooke Siem’s interview of Dr. Ellen Vora at www.madinamerica.com/
(Record Date: December 10, 2024)
(Record Date: December 10, 2024)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome. You're listening to the Keeping Ashland Healthy Podcast, a
podcast production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of
Ashland County, Ohio. Thanks for joining us, and thank you
for joining Doctor Ashley and the Boss the podcast here
of the Mental Health and Recovery Board. We're excited. We're
in holiday season, doctor Ashley, and we didn't want to
neglect our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Absolutely, yes, so we are back.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Even though I know folks are in the midst of shopping,
getting everything ready for Christmas.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Taking cookies right, the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We wanted to talk with you about a few things
that are going on in the news, and since it
is Christmas, Doctor Ashley, I thought, who wouldn't want some
wonderful book recommendations.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I know, so time to get them for your Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I don't know about the shipping speeds lately, but they've
been slow. But we will go through a few things
in the news that I think are interest our listeners
would be interested in, and then we'll end things today
with a few book recommendations for you or someone special.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So the first it was really another podcast interview between
doctor Ellen Vora and our friend Brooke Seam and this
takes place over on the Mad in America website madamerica
dot com. And for our listeners that are doing other
things like driving, don't worry. We're gonna put all the
(01:27):
details that you need in the episode description from today.
So if you want to follow up on anything doctor
Ashley and I discuss, you can do that there safely.
Please don't try to shop on Amazon while you're driving.
Although done it, doctor Ashley, I don't recommend it. So
Brooke and doctor Vora, they titled the episode the Anatomy
(01:51):
of Anxiety, and this was interesting and I think our
listeners be interested in it because doctor Vora makes a distinction,
that distinction that I've not heard before between what she
discusses is false anxiety versus true or purposeful anxiety. And
again this is based on her book Anatomy of Anxiety,
(02:13):
and her distinguishing is when folks are feeling anxious, she
says it's important to understand where that is coming from
because it could be coming from primary physical types of
issues like blood sugar, sleep deprivation, inflammation. And that's what
(02:35):
she determines to be a false anxiety in that the
anxious feelings are due to physical issues and what she's
hoping people don't do is misconstrue that for the other
kind of anxiety, which we'll talk about in a second.
So I thought that was an interesting distinct because I haven't.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Heard that term before false anxiety. But I yeah, at first,
when you hear that, you might think that means you're
not experiencing anxiety, which is not what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
What she's saying, she's.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Saying that there's some sort of imbalance. Yes, that's creating
that that feeling, rather than what we typically think of
anxieties coming from our brain or like a mental illness
form of anxiety. So I like that she distinguishes that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, and what she then talked about true or purposeful anxiety.
True anxiety, she says, isn't about what is wrong with us.
It's about what's right. And what she means by that,
it's when we connect with things that aren't going well
in our lives or the world around us. So true
anxiety is again not related to these physical things. But
(03:38):
maybe we've noticed relationships job things in the world that
are upsetting in wars. So when we notice these things
around us that aren't going well and we feel a
sense of anxiety. About that, she says, that's true anxiety.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Right, and that there's some purpose in that happening. So
there's a reason something's wrong going on outside of you
or something that you're experiencing that's causing that, which I
think I can see why you picked this based on
our three legs of philosophy, because if we look at
anxiety that way, it's purposeful and we can do something
about it. If you look at it like it's a
(04:14):
it's a disease, it's a mental illness, it's a hopeless feeling. Yes, right,
And I like I like this kind of way of
thinking about anxiety much better.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
No, that's what I said, doctor Ashley. And so she
goes on to say in the interview that mental health
issues are not symptoms, not symptoms of some sort of imbalance,
which is of you. We embrace here. But it's important
to identify root causes, whether those are physical, psychological, or
unresolved trauma. But by identifying those root causes that really
(04:45):
can lead to healing. But what we don't want to
do is just kind of ignore what's going on with
our bodies. We need to be curious and pay attention
and try to figure out what's causing it? Is it environmental, physical,
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So you don't think that we should just medicate that away?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And I do not. I do not. I think that
is an approach taken by some and it might seem
like a quick fix, and I put the fix in
air quotes. The audience can't see me doing that, but
it's not really a fix. It really just doesn't deal
with the issues. And I can't tell you how many
(05:24):
times maybe you experienced this as a counselor when I
was working with folks, particularly folks that were using substances
in a way that weren't wasn't helpful. Once they were
getting clean and sober, it wasn't unusual at all for
them to discuss a lot of those those feelings that
they had maybe years ago, coming back because they never
(05:47):
dealt with them.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah them for a little bit, and then they're like, oh,
I still have those feelings, right, It didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So a lot of the work that we do once
the person's clean and sober is the work we would
have done way back when when things were, you know,
starting to be troublesome for them. But like you said,
it just went on pause for a number of years
while they were just kind of medicating or or just
not dealing with so so she also towards the end
(06:17):
she makes the important distinction that and we're going to
talk about this a lot, I think this next year,
especially with our our keynote speaker, which we'll mention later
on for our conference. It's important to remember when persons
are tapering off psychiatric medications that the symptoms that they
might be experiencing aren't doesn't mean that they're you know,
(06:39):
that they need to go back on the medication, Rather
that we need to recognize the symptoms that their experience
earned are part of that withdrawal process. So one of
the things we're going to try to educate our listeners
in the community on if you decide, if you decide,
in conjunction with your doctor uh to discontinue or tape
or off your psychiatric medications, you're going to experience symptoms.
(07:02):
But that's not we don't want to rush and label
that a return of illness, but rather that is just
the normal thing that happens as your body had become
accustomed to operating on those medications, and as you come
off of it, your body has to readjust to not
functioning on them. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I think so, so, not like over correcting and seeing like,
oh I feel anxiety again. Yeah, so I should keep
taking this medicine. But it's actually a natural part of
cultural perfect Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yep. So it's forty five minutes. I think it's Brooks
scene does the interview with doctor Vora. It's on Madamerica
dot com. I think our listeners will find it enjoyable
and educational. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, can I just say one more thing about that?
I thought the thing that struck me about it was
they described anxiety as an inner compass yep. And I
really like that viewing anxiety as, like, you know, just
an indicator that something else is going on, and if
you're aware of that, then you can do something about
those things if you're if you're more aware. So I
(08:03):
really like that part.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Ye, it's a good point, doctor Ashley. One of the
things we encourage everybody to do, whether they're receiving services
in our system or not, is just to be more
aware of what their body's telling them. And I know
that sounds weird to some folks, but as doctor Ashley said,
if we're feeling depressed, or anxious. You know, that means something.
(08:25):
What we don't want to do is ignore, but we
also don't want to mislabel things. And we'll get to
that in one of my book recommendations, Doctor Ashley, you're stealing,
you're getting ahead, you're stealing the gun unders yeah. Yeah,
So that The second piece that we wanted to talk
about was in our own Ashland Times Gazette, and it
had to do with some of the challenges that are
(08:45):
emerging because of the legalization recently of recreational marijuana. Again,
Doctor Ashley and I will not talk about the pros
and the cons of that that decision the voters voted
on that. So what we know is that more folks
are consuming marijuana because now that it's been made legal
(09:09):
in various circumstances. But the concern that was expressed in
this article, and again this is a Times Gazette article.
Samantha Hendrickson, she works, I think for the Columbus Dispatch.
She was the the author of it, but it gets reprinted,
you know, in our local paper. She's concerned that little
(09:30):
kids and what she means by that is UH, folks
under the age of six UH in Ohio getting into
marijuana edibles. So that's a certain form that the marijuana
can be sold in. Uh. And again the edibles for
for those that aren't familiar. Something tells me our listeners
are pretty educated, but edibles are almost like little gummies
(09:54):
if folks aren't familiar. And but the marijuana is in that,
the TC is in that. What they've noticed is that
since the legislation and the laws passed, more than two
hundred children ages six are under between January and July,
(10:14):
so that's what six months. According to the Poison Control Center,
they're just seeing two hundred children were exposed to those edibles,
and there was an increase of exposure in this young
group compared to previous years, like almost fifty percent increase
of young people getting a hold of these edibles, ingesting
(10:36):
them and then having you know, bad effects.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, I think this is important for everyone to kind
of think about and understand, you know, your thoughts and
feelings about marijuana. Side, the facts are that more kids
are being exposed to it. There's some increase in exposure,
and so that's the concern that we're kind of talking
about here.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Right, So, I mean, so it's a again, I thank
you for saying that again, it's not about the pros
and the cons of the legislation. We just know since
it has been legalized, there's just more of this particular
type the edibles that are out there, So you know,
cut to the chase. Really, the article was pretty I think,
(11:21):
trying to be helpful in how to protect our kids
and recognize the signs of toxicity. So in the articles,
she points out two things that the adults can do
to help protect our young people from the edibles specifically,
and then it talks a little bit about common symptoms
of what's called marijuana toxicity. So maybe we can go
(11:43):
through those real quick.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah. One of the things that the author recommended was
for parents who want to keep marijuana products inside the home,
that they kind of follow the same rule of some
that they do with other medications like painkillers or antidepressants.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right, and we've talked about that, Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Absolutely keep the medicine out of reach and out of
sight of children, okay, and in locked contain okay, preferably.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I think she she goes on to mention the parents
they shouldn't store the edibles in a purse or another
place where the candy or snacks are, but let's let's
keep them separated. I think there was a song. There
was a song to that effect. Doctor Ashley and I
have very different musical tastes, but we both know that one.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I do know that one. Yeah, but I can see
that because kids don't know the difference between the edible
and gummy bear, right, they look similar, and so they
could easily, you know, just eat one thinking it's just
a normal coming.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
She goes on to say, yeah, and adults obviously shouldn't
refer to the edibles as treats or candy. Yeah, because
again they the young person may not understand that they're joking.
Mommy's just taking her treat. Now, you know, that's a
crude example, but just to try to make the point
so that the young person could easily be confused by that.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Right and then think it's fine, not knowing that it's
actually dangerous for them. Right.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Well, and again, hopefully this doesn't happen, but for our listeners,
maybe talk to them, doctor Ashley. What are what are
some of the common symptoms that the article mentions of
marijuana toxicity.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
So the most common symptoms of marijuana toxicity are drowsiness
and fast heart rates. I hear that a lot about
people who have especially heart rate, heart rate, they feel
like they might they might be having a heart attack.
But in a small number of children, they also experienced
severe symptoms like seizures, coma, and even respiratory failure. So
(13:29):
very dangerous for young children.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
All right, when in doubt if you see those symptoms,
we just encourage folks obviously call nine one one right away,
get help immediately. But if you know, you make efforts
to keep the marijuana products in the home safely. As
we discussed in Samantha Hendrickson in this piece, I think
that will help quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
So definitely that's a good piece.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, very practical examples there so are. Our third piece
we wanted to mention in today's show had to do
with all the resources and supports that the Mental Health
and Recovery Board has assembled for our listeners on our website,
our newsletter, this podcast. What we've tried to do is
(14:14):
pull together, and doctor Ashley, you did a lot of
this work trying to find different resources to help people
get through the holiday season because, as you've said before,
you know, the emotions can be all over the place.
I think people know by now that not all families
get togethers are what we see on Hallmark. Some of
them are. I hope the vast majority of our folks
(14:34):
are having a Hallmark Christmas, doctor Ashley, but we know
that sometimes it's complicated for any number of reasons. So
you've tried to assemble in all these different formats just
a variety of resources to help folks.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, there's a lot going on for a lot of
people this time of year, and I want to make
a shout out to Sandy, our colleague here at the board.
She did a great job of assembling a newsletter, the
Holiday edition of the MHRB newsletter, and if you're not
on that list, give us a call or send us
an email. Get on there, because there's a lot of
good information coming out, yes, and resources that people can
(15:06):
apply and use in their daily lives.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So I agreed, Doctor, Actually, I think Sandy did a
great job, and both of you are very talented in
presenting information I think in a pleasing way. Thanks, and
it's very accessible, So check that out folks on either
our website Ashlan MHRB dot org or in our newsletters,
Doctor Ashley said. If you're not receiving our newsletter, get
(15:30):
on the list, get on the list, contact us and
again you can do that over on the website or
listen to the podcast. Doctor Ashley and I did a
special edition, the Holiday edition. You can listen to that,
and we reference several of these strategies, but not all
of them. We didn't have the time. So that's where
I think the website. In the newsletter, they list even
more things you do that could be helpful.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Absolutely, and as always like follow, share on Facebook, Instagram
and LinkedIn. Those are our social media platforms.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yepiate that now, Doctor Ashley, We're ready for it. The
book recommend book recommendations are coming up, and again, if
you really care about somebody, you'll consider these books. So
if you do not know this about Doctor Ashley and I,
we are avid book readers. Not saying we read the
same things, Doctor Ashley, but sometimes we do.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
We dolap so.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
The first book and I have it right here in
my hands, Doctor Ashley. Yeah, I see, I'm making a
noise book that is so. This is called may Cause
Side Effects. It's a memoir by Brooke sim Si e m.
And I'm super excited about this book because Brook, along
with her mother de Barbish are scheduled to come and
(16:44):
present at the Boards March twenty six, twenty twenty five
r s VP conference. So Brooke is going to talk
about this book and I have read it and oh
look Christmas music. So Brooke talks about her fifty she
(17:05):
was on a psychiatric medication, started at age fifteen, on
them for fifteen years, so at the age of thirty,
making the decision to come off psychiatric medication, and she
talks about that experience. I do not want to ruin
it for the audience, but I think it's important that
folks understand that that process for a lot of people
(17:26):
is very challenging. It's not easy. There's a lot of
symptoms side effects from coming off medications, particularly somebody like
Brooke who was on them for fifteen years, started as
a young person. And Brooke what I like so much
about Brooks. She's a great communicator, but she also isn't
shy about, you know, you know, explaining to the reader's
(17:48):
her experience. And because I think her experience is representative
of a lot of folks that maybe have come off
psychiatric medications and nobody told him how hard it would be,
or nobody told them what to expect. So for me,
I think it's going to be very helpful to folks
that are in a similar situation. They've made the decision,
hopefully in conjunction with their prescriber or prescribers, that they
(18:09):
want to do this so they'll be better equipped to
handle some of the feelings and you know, real and
sometimes very distressing effects that they they're experiencing as they
come off.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, that's really interesting. So I, full disclosure, haven't read
this book yet. It's on my good Reads list, yes,
but so I but I have heard her speak some Yes,
And if I remember, right, was she was experiencing grief
at the time she was prescribed.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
As Is that right she was initially Yeah, she had
recently lost her father, and I think the doctors at
the time felt like she needed medications to help her
with that.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Process through that. Yeah, So that's interesting to me, like
how she started like started medication but then and she
was on them for a long time, she.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Was fifteen years Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I'm looking forward to reading it. And because we don't
we really don't hear that the tape off of medicine
part No, not.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
In this voice. So so Brooke, does she again, she
tells folks she's a chef by training. Yeah, she won
an episode of Chopped on the Food Network. Folks want
to check that out. They can't. But yeah, so this
is not something you know. She's not a psychiatrist. She's
just somebody who's on these psychiatric medications for all these
(19:23):
years and wants to tell the story about how difficult
and challenging it was for her, what her life was
like as she experienced coming off the medications. And I
just think it's an important voice, important story that people
need to hear about. And I hope folks can read
it prior to her coming to our conference. And I
hope to see everybody at the conference so they can
buy the book there if they haven't already read it.
(19:45):
Talked to Brooke and hear her presentation as well as
her mother, because her mother's perspective on this is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, to get both of their perspectives, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So that is may cost side effects by Brooke seem
as I E M. And that is with Central Recovery Press.
So book number two we should have like.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
A drum roll, We should have a drummer.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
We probably have one of this somewhere. Another very important,
I think voice in the space of mental health is
Abigail Schreyer s h R I E. R. Abigail's first
book was a runaway bestseller, was called Irreversible Damage. Abigail
(20:32):
was on the cutting edge talking about the issue of
transgenderism and everything that goes with that. So that was
her book of a few years ago. But her most
recent book is called Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't
Growing Up? Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't growing Up?
That's an interesting title, right, you should see the cover.
(20:55):
We've got a young girl that's inside a glass, jo Are.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I wasn't sure what that was like.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, so she's protected. You see, she's protecting a bubble.
She's in a bubble, right, And this one is I
think it's a publisher on this one. I don't. I'm
flipping through. Yeah, I'm trying to find Sentinel Sentinel books. Okay,
So Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up? And
(21:25):
why I like this one so much? Doctor Ashley is
our podcast. Everything that the Board does is about getting folks,
challenging folks to think more critically about today's mental health system.
Now full disclosure. Doctor Ashley and I are part of
the mental health system. Indeed, so we are trying to
(21:47):
bring about reforms and changes from within. Uh and those
things can happen from within and from without. So you,
dear listeners, are are the people that can help us
in our efforts to bring that change about because you know,
you demand it, you ask for it, you expect it.
So when you when you read articles, or you go
in to receive services, or you ask questions of your
(22:08):
therapists or your doctors, we're hoping that we can inform
you to ask you know, different maybe different kinds of questions,
be more curious about what you're being told. So she
does this in this book Bad Therapy. One of the
points she makes early on is she says human beings
are wired for resilience, wired for resilience. And what she
(22:30):
means by that, doctor Ashley, is it's important that we
don't see ourselves as that girl in the glass jar is,
as fragile and constantly needing to be protected and sheltered
and a verse from all risk. And in fact, she says,
most of the time we're able to get through challenging
(22:50):
times just fine. In fact, we have for thousands of
years as a human species that we're able to endure
adversity without the need for all all kinds of overprotection
or you know, all kinds of even medications to help
us through a trying time. So we rush to a
this is this is a quote. We rush to remedy
(23:13):
a misdiagnosed condition with the wrong sort of cure. I
love that because use the example of Brooke you brought
up about. You know, she was grieving the loss of
her father. So the remedy to that is to allow
the person to grieve and to help them understand that
green means normal, and it varies by individual, and it
(23:35):
might look like this might look like that, it might
take this amount of time. We don't know for sure
because it varies by person in their family situation. What
we don't want to do is say, you know, say
your grief isn't grief, it's it's anxiety, it's depression, it's whatever,
and then give the person medications so that that gets
at her quote. So we rush to a remedy based
(23:57):
on a misdiagnosed condition, and then we intervene in a
way that doesn't make things better, It actually makes things worse.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Right, so we label it and we prescribe a medication
for it and numb it out a little bit. Yeah,
but it doesn't actually resolve what's happening with that person.
It doesn't help.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
No, no, And then she takes on the concept. And
this is one of my favorite words. It was introduced
by Bob Whitaker years ago, at least in our world
of community behavior health. Iatrogenesis. Now, doctor Ashley, I know
we try to keep things real with the people. And
that does seem like a big word. It is iatro genesis,
(24:35):
iatrogenesis and basically all that means, but it's an important word.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It is.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
It's when the healer or the helper actually makes things worse, because,
believe it or not, every time you go in to
see somebody for help, there's a risk to that. Now
I can tell you there's a risk when I go
get my oil change, because I go in for an
oil change, Doctor Ashley, and I come out and eating
breaks in an exhaust system. So the real risk to
(25:01):
my pocketbooks. Don't go see and how is that working
for you? She's broken down the side of the road,
listeners and I have to pick her up. So yes,
so we have to understand that's a real thing. Sometimes
the people that are in positions to be the helpers
can actually because of what we just mentioned, if they're
misdiagnosing mistreating, they're actually going to make things the issue worse.
(25:26):
So we need to be aware of that. So to
the audience, I want them to ask a question, how
do I know that this help that you're prescribing is
really going to be helpful?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So ask those questions, right, And I think it's important
also for professionals. So if you're a counselor who's listening,
or a therapist of some sort, I know that that
can make therapist defensive, like we don't often think about
the damage that can be done by what we're doing.
That's right, But there are a lot of things that
can be negative that can come from that. I like
(25:58):
the title bad therapy. Yeah, we need to be thinking
of that because if we're not aware of the damage
we can do, we can easily inflict it.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
That's right, because if I were to make a you know, again,
for our listeners that haven't been following doctor, we're both
in recovery as therapists. We both practiced for many years.
But yeah, I mean I always had to be aware
that if I was, you know, recommending something, you know,
the ramifications aren't on me, it's on that individual. And
that's a that's a huge responsibility for us as professional
(26:29):
helpers to understand that things that we're doing or recommending
or suggesting, there's a risk to that and we need
to own that and talk that through. So a lot
of this gets a fancy point called informed consent, and
all that means is that, you know, we have an
obligation as professional helpers to make sure that we go
(26:50):
over all the potential risks that we're aware of for
any type of intervention with the individual, which before we
recommend it, they have a right to know that because
we can't assume that they know everything. Why should they
know all those risks before they come in they What
I want them to know is that there are risks
and to push the professionals to explain those and what
(27:10):
those are. And as you say, we do have professionals
that listen to the podcast as well. I just want
to emphasize and encourage you to remember to get out
in front of this because it's our obligation to let
folks know. Even something is simple sounding as talk therapy
comes with risks because you know, you start talking about
things that maybe have a lot of emotion behind it.
You know what, this can cause my anxiety maybe to
(27:32):
get worse. It could cause my depression to get worse.
I might have suicidal thoughts if I'm talking about some
very difficult So all that stuff has to be disclosed
and people need to be informed. And one of my
favorites when she talks about this issue, she says, you
know about iatrogenesis, When a sick patient submits to treatment,
the risks are typically worth it. When a well patient does,
(27:56):
the risks often outweigh the potential for further improvement. So
first and foremost, what Abby challenges her readers is make
sure that you even need to be going somewhere, because
you know, it's one thing. You know, if I go
in to get the oil changed, doctor Ashley, and there's
nothing wrong, it was just changed five hundred miles ago,
(28:19):
you know, there's probably a good chance that them changing
oil that doesn't need to be changed, all that's going
to do is cost me money. But if I go
in there and it's been you know, way past, it's
been forty thousand miles fifty thousand miles I want to change.
It's probably worth it to pay the money, you know.
But all that to say, using my car analogies, all
(28:40):
that to say, you know, if you're going back to brook,
if the grief that you're experiencing, that's not a problem.
So if we treat it as a problem, there's a
there's a chance that the person's actually well, just going
through a difficult time but a normal process. If we
medicalize that, there's a good chance that the risk will
(29:00):
weigh the potential for further improvement.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I think what Brookes says is that harm was done. Yeah, right,
And counselors have an ethical responsibility first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
What they teach you in God School is they do
no harm.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
But like we can easily do that in our role,
so we have to be forthcoming about the risks.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, so bad therapy. Abigail Schreier, why the kids aren't
growing up? Again? What we're going to link to all
these in the episode description great stuff? I think an
easy reading. Abigail is a great writer. Again, you know,
she's a writer. She's not a psychiatrist, a psychologist or
social work herself. So she interviews a lot of those
folks in the book. It's challenging. I won't lie to
(29:40):
the audience. I mean it's challenging. But again, part of
being a good critical thinking is reading different perspectives on
the same issue from different authors, different authorities, and again
trying to form your own opinions about where you want
to come out on that. So I recommend that one definitely.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
And I think one of the most important things on
this topic is you have a voice, you have a
say in your own treatment, and it's okay to think
critically about the professionals, yes, you know, and to voice
those things if you have concerns about them.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Agreed, all right, Last, but not least, Jonathan Height's book
The Anxious Generation the subtitle how the Great Rewiring of
Childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness The Anxious
Generation by Jonathan Hyde Penguin Books. So Jonathan is very interesting.
(30:35):
He's also got He's written several books, but this one.
There's a theme here, doctor Ashley, and I think it's
interesting they're all being published at around the same time.
You've heard this idea of free range kids. I have,
so you hear this, right, free range kids? What Jonathan
gets at similar to what Abby mentions is he's really
concerned about the shift in the United States of overprotection
(30:58):
of children and restricting their autonomy in the real world,
not giving them the opportunities that well, I'm a lot
older than you, but literally, in the summer months, my parents,
my mother usually because dad was working, but my mom
would say, you know, come home when the street lights
turn on. You know, I think sometimes she even locked
the door. So I actually I couldn't return to the
(31:19):
house if I wanted to write. So this is how
kids ended up drinking out of the hoses, right, So,
which I did. So the idea was we were able
to We had to create our own fun friends and
figure things out. And his point is he looks at
a lot of statistics showing that, you know, there's been
(31:42):
this shift away from kids being more free, rangent and
overprotecting them like the kid in the glass. On the
cover of Abby's book, he says his main claims in
the book. This is him quoted over protection in the
real world. He said, there's two main claims that there's
over protection going on in the real world and then
(32:02):
under protection in the virtual world. So those are the
major reasons why children born after nineteen ninety five, in
his opinion, become the anxious generation. So we're overprotecting, he's
saying doctor Ashley in the real world, not allowing for
those real world experiences that can build autonomy. But then
we underprotect our young people in the virtual world. And
what he's getting at there is there are a lot
(32:25):
of things our younger folks are on their screens a lot,
and the protections that maybe older adults or middle aged
adults think are in place, they're not in place. Kids
can really be led astray and influenced negatively because our
social media, the websites, the algorithms that are used. I
(32:47):
know there's some efforts here locally, even in the Ashen
City school system to protect kids so that algorithm doesn't
continue to feed them back stories like if you go
to one website that maybe you shouldn't have gone to,
maybe you went there by acxis next thing, you know,
the algorithm is sending you all kinds of things that
are similar to that, and it's hard to like escape it. Right.
Oh yeah, So this idea is we're not doing enough
(33:11):
to protect our young people virtually, but we're overprotecting him
in the real world, and he's asking for us to
maybe balance that, so let's do more protection in the
virtual world and less of the protection in the real world.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I think that's fascinating. Yeah, finding that balance, I think
is a challenge for parents in this day and age.
I'm finding ways to protect your kids and.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
How can we limit the screen time and encourage person
to person relationships more time in the natural world. And again,
listeners may know, we've talked a lot about Ashton County's
parks and how beautiful they are and how many we
have in Ashley County. So again, let's get out, let's
walk in those, let's take advantage of the natural beauty.
(33:57):
I do believe doctor Ashley Guinness, you know Guinness Book
of World Records. They were in town recently and they
were very impressed with our candy cane trail, such that
I think we got an award for the most like
aluminum structures in the world. Congrats to the mayor on
that and everybody able to involve. So last, but not least, here,
(34:20):
Jonathan mentions he does have solutions. One of the things
I like about all three of these books is there
are our solutions suggested and and Jonathan says his solutions
including hold on to this, you know listeners. Some of
these might sound difficult, but really they don't have to be.
So no smartphones. Doctor Ashley had to give me your
reactions to this. You have a youngster that's growing up.
(34:41):
No smartphones before high school. So there's a difference betew
between a flip phone or some people call them dumb
phones or smartphones. So no smartphones because again, the smartphone
gives you access to the Internet, social media, et cetera.
The basic flip phone doesn't do that. So the idea
of safety security, you know, sometimes parents need to get
(35:02):
hold or the young person needs to get hold of
the parents. That's fine, but just do that. And no
smartphones before high school.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I can see that. Like, I think that would limit
a lot of exposure, early exposure to things that are
concerning for kids, even bullying. You know, like at least
if they're being bullied at school or something, it's in
a social situation, someone can intervene. They're being bullied on
their smartphone, you may never know about it, very hard
and they're dealing with that alone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Because if they don't share it with you, you may
not know. You just recognize changes in your son or daughter, grandson, granddaughter,
and don't realize unless they share that this stuff is
all going on. Cyber bullying is a real thing. It is. Yes,
So no smartphones before high school, no social media before sixteen.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yeah, and I think you know a lot of kids
want to get on social.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Media before that might be the parents might have to
make the case why they're doing that. So Jonathan gives
you some ammunition in the book about why social media
before sixteen is deleterious or could be damaging for young
people again, because it's so it's such a wild west
out there on social media. And then he really encourages
third point phone free schools so that the phones could
(36:14):
be locked up in a locker. They're just not with
the students throughout the day because they are such a
tempting distraction to have right there.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Definitely, I don't know if all schools are that way.
My son's school is okaying free. They can have it
after school to call their parents or whatever, but before
that they don't have Yep, some of.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
These things are already some of our systems are already
moving to interact or implement some of these things, which
I was interested in. And last is far more unsupervised play,
getting back to our free range kids, far more unsupervised
play in childhood independence. So that was his fourth things.
So you know, those things don't cost a lot of money,
which I thought was encouraging. Right, parents can do these thing.
(36:52):
It's not more fancy than that. I think Jonathan makes
the point in his book The Anxious Generation, and those
four things we might begin to see a dramatic change
in our young people.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I like that there are things that people can actually
implement in their lives. I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Well, we've reached the end of this episode. It's a
little bit longer, but that's because we just did some
fun stuff with our you know, our recommendations and our books,
et cetera. So hopefully folks now have some gift ideas.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yes, and I'll take that one, all right, generation, all right.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I'll give it to you, doctor Ashley. Well until we
talk to you next time, doctor Ashley. Have a wonderful Christmas.
Thank you, mery Christmas, and happy New Year. Thank you
for listening to another episode of the Keeping an Ashline
Healthy podcast. The podcast is a production of the Mental
Health and Recovery Board of Ashland County, Ohio. You can
reach the board by calling four one nine two eight
(37:44):
one three one three nine. Please remember that the Board
funds a local twenty four to seven crisis line through
Applese Community Mental Health Center. It can be reached by
calling four one nine, two eight nine six ' one
one one. That's four one nine two eight nine. Until
next time, Please join us in keeping Ashland healthy.
Welcome. You're listening to the Keeping Ashland Healthy Podcast, a
podcast production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of
Ashland County, Ohio. Thanks for joining us, and thank you
for joining Doctor Ashley and the Boss the podcast here
of the Mental Health and Recovery Board. We're excited. We're
in holiday season, doctor Ashley, and we didn't want to
neglect our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Absolutely, yes, so we are back.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Even though I know folks are in the midst of shopping,
getting everything ready for Christmas.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Taking cookies right, the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We wanted to talk with you about a few things
that are going on in the news, and since it
is Christmas, Doctor Ashley, I thought, who wouldn't want some
wonderful book recommendations.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I know, so time to get them for your Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I don't know about the shipping speeds lately, but they've
been slow. But we will go through a few things
in the news that I think are interest our listeners
would be interested in, and then we'll end things today
with a few book recommendations for you or someone special.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So the first it was really another podcast interview between
doctor Ellen Vora and our friend Brooke Seam and this
takes place over on the Mad in America website madamerica
dot com. And for our listeners that are doing other
things like driving, don't worry. We're gonna put all the
(01:27):
details that you need in the episode description from today.
So if you want to follow up on anything doctor
Ashley and I discuss, you can do that there safely.
Please don't try to shop on Amazon while you're driving.
Although done it, doctor Ashley, I don't recommend it. So
Brooke and doctor Vora, they titled the episode the Anatomy
(01:51):
of Anxiety, and this was interesting and I think our
listeners be interested in it because doctor Vora makes a distinction,
that distinction that I've not heard before between what she
discusses is false anxiety versus true or purposeful anxiety. And
again this is based on her book Anatomy of Anxiety,
(02:13):
and her distinguishing is when folks are feeling anxious, she
says it's important to understand where that is coming from
because it could be coming from primary physical types of
issues like blood sugar, sleep deprivation, inflammation. And that's what
(02:35):
she determines to be a false anxiety in that the
anxious feelings are due to physical issues and what she's
hoping people don't do is misconstrue that for the other
kind of anxiety, which we'll talk about in a second.
So I thought that was an interesting distinct because I haven't.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Heard that term before false anxiety. But I yeah, at first,
when you hear that, you might think that means you're
not experiencing anxiety, which is not what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
What she's saying, she's.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Saying that there's some sort of imbalance. Yes, that's creating
that that feeling, rather than what we typically think of
anxieties coming from our brain or like a mental illness
form of anxiety. So I like that she distinguishes that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, and what she then talked about true or purposeful anxiety.
True anxiety, she says, isn't about what is wrong with us.
It's about what's right. And what she means by that,
it's when we connect with things that aren't going well
in our lives or the world around us. So true
anxiety is again not related to these physical things. But
(03:38):
maybe we've noticed relationships job things in the world that
are upsetting in wars. So when we notice these things
around us that aren't going well and we feel a
sense of anxiety. About that, she says, that's true anxiety.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Right, and that there's some purpose in that happening. So
there's a reason something's wrong going on outside of you
or something that you're experiencing that's causing that, which I
think I can see why you picked this based on
our three legs of philosophy, because if we look at
anxiety that way, it's purposeful and we can do something
about it. If you look at it like it's a
(04:14):
it's a disease, it's a mental illness, it's a hopeless feeling. Yes, right,
And I like I like this kind of way of
thinking about anxiety much better.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
No, that's what I said, doctor Ashley. And so she
goes on to say in the interview that mental health
issues are not symptoms, not symptoms of some sort of imbalance,
which is of you. We embrace here. But it's important
to identify root causes, whether those are physical, psychological, or
unresolved trauma. But by identifying those root causes that really
(04:45):
can lead to healing. But what we don't want to
do is just kind of ignore what's going on with
our bodies. We need to be curious and pay attention
and try to figure out what's causing it? Is it environmental, physical,
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So you don't think that we should just medicate that away?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And I do not. I do not. I think that
is an approach taken by some and it might seem
like a quick fix, and I put the fix in
air quotes. The audience can't see me doing that, but
it's not really a fix. It really just doesn't deal
with the issues. And I can't tell you how many
(05:24):
times maybe you experienced this as a counselor when I
was working with folks, particularly folks that were using substances
in a way that weren't wasn't helpful. Once they were
getting clean and sober, it wasn't unusual at all for
them to discuss a lot of those those feelings that
they had maybe years ago, coming back because they never
(05:47):
dealt with them.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah them for a little bit, and then they're like, oh,
I still have those feelings, right, It didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So a lot of the work that we do once
the person's clean and sober is the work we would
have done way back when when things were, you know,
starting to be troublesome for them. But like you said,
it just went on pause for a number of years
while they were just kind of medicating or or just
not dealing with so so she also towards the end
(06:17):
she makes the important distinction that and we're going to
talk about this a lot, I think this next year,
especially with our our keynote speaker, which we'll mention later
on for our conference. It's important to remember when persons
are tapering off psychiatric medications that the symptoms that they
might be experiencing aren't doesn't mean that they're you know,
(06:39):
that they need to go back on the medication, Rather
that we need to recognize the symptoms that their experience
earned are part of that withdrawal process. So one of
the things we're going to try to educate our listeners
in the community on if you decide, if you decide,
in conjunction with your doctor uh to discontinue or tape
or off your psychiatric medications, you're going to experience symptoms.
(07:02):
But that's not we don't want to rush and label
that a return of illness, but rather that is just
the normal thing that happens as your body had become
accustomed to operating on those medications, and as you come
off of it, your body has to readjust to not
functioning on them. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I think so, so, not like over correcting and seeing like,
oh I feel anxiety again. Yeah, so I should keep
taking this medicine. But it's actually a natural part of
cultural perfect Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yep. So it's forty five minutes. I think it's Brooks
scene does the interview with doctor Vora. It's on Madamerica
dot com. I think our listeners will find it enjoyable
and educational. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, can I just say one more thing about that?
I thought the thing that struck me about it was
they described anxiety as an inner compass yep. And I
really like that viewing anxiety as, like, you know, just
an indicator that something else is going on, and if
you're aware of that, then you can do something about
those things if you're if you're more aware. So I
(08:03):
really like that part.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Ye, it's a good point, doctor Ashley. One of the
things we encourage everybody to do, whether they're receiving services
in our system or not, is just to be more
aware of what their body's telling them. And I know
that sounds weird to some folks, but as doctor Ashley said,
if we're feeling depressed, or anxious. You know, that means something.
(08:25):
What we don't want to do is ignore, but we
also don't want to mislabel things. And we'll get to
that in one of my book recommendations, Doctor Ashley, you're stealing,
you're getting ahead, you're stealing the gun unders yeah. Yeah,
So that The second piece that we wanted to talk
about was in our own Ashland Times Gazette, and it
had to do with some of the challenges that are
(08:45):
emerging because of the legalization recently of recreational marijuana. Again,
Doctor Ashley and I will not talk about the pros
and the cons of that that decision the voters voted
on that. So what we know is that more folks
are consuming marijuana because now that it's been made legal
(09:09):
in various circumstances. But the concern that was expressed in
this article, and again this is a Times Gazette article.
Samantha Hendrickson, she works, I think for the Columbus Dispatch.
She was the the author of it, but it gets reprinted,
you know, in our local paper. She's concerned that little
(09:30):
kids and what she means by that is UH, folks
under the age of six UH in Ohio getting into
marijuana edibles. So that's a certain form that the marijuana
can be sold in. Uh. And again the edibles for
for those that aren't familiar. Something tells me our listeners
are pretty educated, but edibles are almost like little gummies
(09:54):
if folks aren't familiar. And but the marijuana is in that,
the TC is in that. What they've noticed is that
since the legislation and the laws passed, more than two
hundred children ages six are under between January and July,
(10:14):
so that's what six months. According to the Poison Control Center,
they're just seeing two hundred children were exposed to those edibles,
and there was an increase of exposure in this young
group compared to previous years, like almost fifty percent increase
of young people getting a hold of these edibles, ingesting
(10:36):
them and then having you know, bad effects.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, I think this is important for everyone to kind
of think about and understand, you know, your thoughts and
feelings about marijuana. Side, the facts are that more kids
are being exposed to it. There's some increase in exposure,
and so that's the concern that we're kind of talking
about here.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Right, So, I mean, so it's a again, I thank
you for saying that again, it's not about the pros
and the cons of the legislation. We just know since
it has been legalized, there's just more of this particular
type the edibles that are out there, So you know,
cut to the chase. Really, the article was pretty I think,
(11:21):
trying to be helpful in how to protect our kids
and recognize the signs of toxicity. So in the articles,
she points out two things that the adults can do
to help protect our young people from the edibles specifically,
and then it talks a little bit about common symptoms
of what's called marijuana toxicity. So maybe we can go
(11:43):
through those real quick.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah. One of the things that the author recommended was
for parents who want to keep marijuana products inside the home,
that they kind of follow the same rule of some
that they do with other medications like painkillers or antidepressants.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right, and we've talked about that, Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Absolutely keep the medicine out of reach and out of
sight of children, okay, and in locked contain okay, preferably.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I think she she goes on to mention the parents
they shouldn't store the edibles in a purse or another
place where the candy or snacks are, but let's let's
keep them separated. I think there was a song. There
was a song to that effect. Doctor Ashley and I
have very different musical tastes, but we both know that one.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I do know that one. Yeah, but I can see
that because kids don't know the difference between the edible
and gummy bear, right, they look similar, and so they
could easily, you know, just eat one thinking it's just
a normal coming.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
She goes on to say, yeah, and adults obviously shouldn't
refer to the edibles as treats or candy. Yeah, because
again they the young person may not understand that they're joking.
Mommy's just taking her treat. Now, you know, that's a
crude example, but just to try to make the point
so that the young person could easily be confused by that.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Right and then think it's fine, not knowing that it's
actually dangerous for them. Right.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Well, and again, hopefully this doesn't happen, but for our listeners,
maybe talk to them, doctor Ashley. What are what are
some of the common symptoms that the article mentions of
marijuana toxicity.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
So the most common symptoms of marijuana toxicity are drowsiness
and fast heart rates. I hear that a lot about
people who have especially heart rate, heart rate, they feel
like they might they might be having a heart attack.
But in a small number of children, they also experienced
severe symptoms like seizures, coma, and even respiratory failure. So
(13:29):
very dangerous for young children.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
All right, when in doubt if you see those symptoms,
we just encourage folks obviously call nine one one right away,
get help immediately. But if you know, you make efforts
to keep the marijuana products in the home safely. As
we discussed in Samantha Hendrickson in this piece, I think
that will help quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
So definitely that's a good piece.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, very practical examples there so are. Our third piece
we wanted to mention in today's show had to do
with all the resources and supports that the Mental Health
and Recovery Board has assembled for our listeners on our website,
our newsletter, this podcast. What we've tried to do is
(14:14):
pull together, and doctor Ashley, you did a lot of
this work trying to find different resources to help people
get through the holiday season because, as you've said before,
you know, the emotions can be all over the place.
I think people know by now that not all families
get togethers are what we see on Hallmark. Some of
them are. I hope the vast majority of our folks
(14:34):
are having a Hallmark Christmas, doctor Ashley, but we know
that sometimes it's complicated for any number of reasons. So
you've tried to assemble in all these different formats just
a variety of resources to help folks.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, there's a lot going on for a lot of
people this time of year, and I want to make
a shout out to Sandy, our colleague here at the board.
She did a great job of assembling a newsletter, the
Holiday edition of the MHRB newsletter, and if you're not
on that list, give us a call or send us
an email. Get on there, because there's a lot of
good information coming out, yes, and resources that people can
(15:06):
apply and use in their daily lives.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So I agreed, Doctor, Actually, I think Sandy did a
great job, and both of you are very talented in
presenting information I think in a pleasing way. Thanks, and
it's very accessible, So check that out folks on either
our website Ashlan MHRB dot org or in our newsletters,
Doctor Ashley said. If you're not receiving our newsletter, get
(15:30):
on the list, get on the list, contact us and
again you can do that over on the website or
listen to the podcast. Doctor Ashley and I did a
special edition, the Holiday edition. You can listen to that,
and we reference several of these strategies, but not all
of them. We didn't have the time. So that's where
I think the website. In the newsletter, they list even
more things you do that could be helpful.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Absolutely, and as always like follow, share on Facebook, Instagram
and LinkedIn. Those are our social media platforms.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yepiate that now, Doctor Ashley, We're ready for it. The
book recommend book recommendations are coming up, and again, if
you really care about somebody, you'll consider these books. So
if you do not know this about Doctor Ashley and I,
we are avid book readers. Not saying we read the
same things, Doctor Ashley, but sometimes we do.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
We dolap so.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
The first book and I have it right here in
my hands, Doctor Ashley. Yeah, I see, I'm making a
noise book that is so. This is called may Cause
Side Effects. It's a memoir by Brooke sim Si e m.
And I'm super excited about this book because Brook, along
with her mother de Barbish are scheduled to come and
(16:44):
present at the Boards March twenty six, twenty twenty five
r s VP conference. So Brooke is going to talk
about this book and I have read it and oh
look Christmas music. So Brooke talks about her fifty she
(17:05):
was on a psychiatric medication, started at age fifteen, on
them for fifteen years, so at the age of thirty,
making the decision to come off psychiatric medication, and she
talks about that experience. I do not want to ruin
it for the audience, but I think it's important that
folks understand that that process for a lot of people
(17:26):
is very challenging. It's not easy. There's a lot of
symptoms side effects from coming off medications, particularly somebody like
Brooke who was on them for fifteen years, started as
a young person. And Brooke what I like so much
about Brooks. She's a great communicator, but she also isn't
shy about, you know, you know, explaining to the reader's
(17:48):
her experience. And because I think her experience is representative
of a lot of folks that maybe have come off
psychiatric medications and nobody told him how hard it would be,
or nobody told them what to expect. So for me,
I think it's going to be very helpful to folks
that are in a similar situation. They've made the decision,
hopefully in conjunction with their prescriber or prescribers, that they
(18:09):
want to do this so they'll be better equipped to
handle some of the feelings and you know, real and
sometimes very distressing effects that they they're experiencing as they
come off.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, that's really interesting. So I, full disclosure, haven't read
this book yet. It's on my good Reads list, yes,
but so I but I have heard her speak some Yes,
And if I remember, right, was she was experiencing grief
at the time she was prescribed.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
As Is that right she was initially Yeah, she had
recently lost her father, and I think the doctors at
the time felt like she needed medications to help her
with that.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Process through that. Yeah, So that's interesting to me, like
how she started like started medication but then and she
was on them for a long time, she.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Was fifteen years Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I'm looking forward to reading it. And because we don't
we really don't hear that the tape off of medicine
part No, not.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
In this voice. So so Brooke, does she again, she
tells folks she's a chef by training. Yeah, she won
an episode of Chopped on the Food Network. Folks want
to check that out. They can't. But yeah, so this
is not something you know. She's not a psychiatrist. She's
just somebody who's on these psychiatric medications for all these
(19:23):
years and wants to tell the story about how difficult
and challenging it was for her, what her life was
like as she experienced coming off the medications. And I
just think it's an important voice, important story that people
need to hear about. And I hope folks can read
it prior to her coming to our conference. And I
hope to see everybody at the conference so they can
buy the book there if they haven't already read it.
(19:45):
Talked to Brooke and hear her presentation as well as
her mother, because her mother's perspective on this is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, to get both of their perspectives, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So that is may cost side effects by Brooke seem
as I E M. And that is with Central Recovery Press.
So book number two we should have like.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
A drum roll, We should have a drummer.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
We probably have one of this somewhere. Another very important,
I think voice in the space of mental health is
Abigail Schreyer s h R I E. R. Abigail's first
book was a runaway bestseller, was called Irreversible Damage. Abigail
(20:32):
was on the cutting edge talking about the issue of
transgenderism and everything that goes with that. So that was
her book of a few years ago. But her most
recent book is called Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't
Growing Up? Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't growing Up?
That's an interesting title, right, you should see the cover.
(20:55):
We've got a young girl that's inside a glass, jo Are.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I wasn't sure what that was like.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, so she's protected. You see, she's protecting a bubble.
She's in a bubble, right, And this one is I
think it's a publisher on this one. I don't. I'm
flipping through. Yeah, I'm trying to find Sentinel Sentinel books. Okay,
So Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up? And
(21:25):
why I like this one so much? Doctor Ashley is
our podcast. Everything that the Board does is about getting folks,
challenging folks to think more critically about today's mental health system.
Now full disclosure. Doctor Ashley and I are part of
the mental health system. Indeed, so we are trying to
(21:47):
bring about reforms and changes from within. Uh and those
things can happen from within and from without. So you,
dear listeners, are are the people that can help us
in our efforts to bring that change about because you know,
you demand it, you ask for it, you expect it.
So when you when you read articles, or you go
in to receive services, or you ask questions of your
(22:08):
therapists or your doctors, we're hoping that we can inform
you to ask you know, different maybe different kinds of questions,
be more curious about what you're being told. So she
does this in this book Bad Therapy. One of the
points she makes early on is she says human beings
are wired for resilience, wired for resilience. And what she
(22:30):
means by that, doctor Ashley, is it's important that we
don't see ourselves as that girl in the glass jar is,
as fragile and constantly needing to be protected and sheltered
and a verse from all risk. And in fact, she says,
most of the time we're able to get through challenging
(22:50):
times just fine. In fact, we have for thousands of
years as a human species that we're able to endure
adversity without the need for all all kinds of overprotection
or you know, all kinds of even medications to help
us through a trying time. So we rush to a
this is this is a quote. We rush to remedy
(23:13):
a misdiagnosed condition with the wrong sort of cure. I
love that because use the example of Brooke you brought
up about. You know, she was grieving the loss of
her father. So the remedy to that is to allow
the person to grieve and to help them understand that
green means normal, and it varies by individual, and it
(23:35):
might look like this might look like that, it might
take this amount of time. We don't know for sure
because it varies by person in their family situation. What
we don't want to do is say, you know, say
your grief isn't grief, it's it's anxiety, it's depression, it's whatever,
and then give the person medications so that that gets
at her quote. So we rush to a remedy based
(23:57):
on a misdiagnosed condition, and then we intervene in a
way that doesn't make things better, It actually makes things worse.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Right, so we label it and we prescribe a medication
for it and numb it out a little bit. Yeah,
but it doesn't actually resolve what's happening with that person.
It doesn't help.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
No, no, And then she takes on the concept. And
this is one of my favorite words. It was introduced
by Bob Whitaker years ago, at least in our world
of community behavior health. Iatrogenesis. Now, doctor Ashley, I know
we try to keep things real with the people. And
that does seem like a big word. It is iatro genesis,
(24:35):
iatrogenesis and basically all that means, but it's an important word.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It is.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
It's when the healer or the helper actually makes things worse, because,
believe it or not, every time you go in to
see somebody for help, there's a risk to that. Now
I can tell you there's a risk when I go
get my oil change, because I go in for an
oil change, Doctor Ashley, and I come out and eating
breaks in an exhaust system. So the real risk to
(25:01):
my pocketbooks. Don't go see and how is that working
for you? She's broken down the side of the road,
listeners and I have to pick her up. So yes,
so we have to understand that's a real thing. Sometimes
the people that are in positions to be the helpers
can actually because of what we just mentioned, if they're
misdiagnosing mistreating, they're actually going to make things the issue worse.
(25:26):
So we need to be aware of that. So to
the audience, I want them to ask a question, how
do I know that this help that you're prescribing is
really going to be helpful?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So ask those questions, right, And I think it's important
also for professionals. So if you're a counselor who's listening,
or a therapist of some sort, I know that that
can make therapist defensive, like we don't often think about
the damage that can be done by what we're doing.
That's right, But there are a lot of things that
can be negative that can come from that. I like
(25:58):
the title bad therapy. Yeah, we need to be thinking
of that because if we're not aware of the damage
we can do, we can easily inflict it.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
That's right, because if I were to make a you know, again,
for our listeners that haven't been following doctor, we're both
in recovery as therapists. We both practiced for many years.
But yeah, I mean I always had to be aware
that if I was, you know, recommending something, you know,
the ramifications aren't on me, it's on that individual. And
that's a that's a huge responsibility for us as professional
(26:29):
helpers to understand that things that we're doing or recommending
or suggesting, there's a risk to that and we need
to own that and talk that through. So a lot
of this gets a fancy point called informed consent, and
all that means is that, you know, we have an
obligation as professional helpers to make sure that we go
(26:50):
over all the potential risks that we're aware of for
any type of intervention with the individual, which before we
recommend it, they have a right to know that because
we can't assume that they know everything. Why should they
know all those risks before they come in they What
I want them to know is that there are risks
and to push the professionals to explain those and what
(27:10):
those are. And as you say, we do have professionals
that listen to the podcast as well. I just want
to emphasize and encourage you to remember to get out
in front of this because it's our obligation to let
folks know. Even something is simple sounding as talk therapy
comes with risks because you know, you start talking about
things that maybe have a lot of emotion behind it.
You know what, this can cause my anxiety maybe to
(27:32):
get worse. It could cause my depression to get worse.
I might have suicidal thoughts if I'm talking about some
very difficult So all that stuff has to be disclosed
and people need to be informed. And one of my
favorites when she talks about this issue, she says, you
know about iatrogenesis, When a sick patient submits to treatment,
the risks are typically worth it. When a well patient does,
(27:56):
the risks often outweigh the potential for further improvement. So
first and foremost, what Abby challenges her readers is make
sure that you even need to be going somewhere, because
you know, it's one thing. You know, if I go
in to get the oil changed, doctor Ashley, and there's
nothing wrong, it was just changed five hundred miles ago,
(28:19):
you know, there's probably a good chance that them changing
oil that doesn't need to be changed, all that's going
to do is cost me money. But if I go
in there and it's been you know, way past, it's
been forty thousand miles fifty thousand miles I want to change.
It's probably worth it to pay the money, you know.
But all that to say, using my car analogies, all
(28:40):
that to say, you know, if you're going back to brook,
if the grief that you're experiencing, that's not a problem.
So if we treat it as a problem, there's a
there's a chance that the person's actually well, just going
through a difficult time but a normal process. If we
medicalize that, there's a good chance that the risk will
(29:00):
weigh the potential for further improvement.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I think what Brookes says is that harm was done. Yeah, right,
And counselors have an ethical responsibility first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
What they teach you in God School is they do
no harm.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
But like we can easily do that in our role,
so we have to be forthcoming about the risks.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, so bad therapy. Abigail Schreier, why the kids aren't
growing up? Again? What we're going to link to all
these in the episode description great stuff? I think an
easy reading. Abigail is a great writer. Again, you know,
she's a writer. She's not a psychiatrist, a psychologist or
social work herself. So she interviews a lot of those
folks in the book. It's challenging. I won't lie to
(29:40):
the audience. I mean it's challenging. But again, part of
being a good critical thinking is reading different perspectives on
the same issue from different authors, different authorities, and again
trying to form your own opinions about where you want
to come out on that. So I recommend that one definitely.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
And I think one of the most important things on
this topic is you have a voice, you have a
say in your own treatment, and it's okay to think
critically about the professionals, yes, you know, and to voice
those things if you have concerns about them.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Agreed, all right, Last, but not least, Jonathan Height's book
The Anxious Generation the subtitle how the Great Rewiring of
Childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness The Anxious
Generation by Jonathan Hyde Penguin Books. So Jonathan is very interesting.
(30:35):
He's also got He's written several books, but this one.
There's a theme here, doctor Ashley, and I think it's
interesting they're all being published at around the same time.
You've heard this idea of free range kids. I have,
so you hear this, right, free range kids? What Jonathan
gets at similar to what Abby mentions is he's really
concerned about the shift in the United States of overprotection
(30:58):
of children and restricting their autonomy in the real world,
not giving them the opportunities that well, I'm a lot
older than you, but literally, in the summer months, my parents,
my mother usually because dad was working, but my mom
would say, you know, come home when the street lights
turn on. You know, I think sometimes she even locked
the door. So I actually I couldn't return to the
(31:19):
house if I wanted to write. So this is how
kids ended up drinking out of the hoses, right, So,
which I did. So the idea was we were able
to We had to create our own fun friends and
figure things out. And his point is he looks at
a lot of statistics showing that, you know, there's been
(31:42):
this shift away from kids being more free, rangent and
overprotecting them like the kid in the glass. On the
cover of Abby's book, he says his main claims in
the book. This is him quoted over protection in the
real world. He said, there's two main claims that there's
over protection going on in the real world and then
(32:02):
under protection in the virtual world. So those are the
major reasons why children born after nineteen ninety five, in
his opinion, become the anxious generation. So we're overprotecting, he's
saying doctor Ashley in the real world, not allowing for
those real world experiences that can build autonomy. But then
we underprotect our young people in the virtual world. And
what he's getting at there is there are a lot
(32:25):
of things our younger folks are on their screens a lot,
and the protections that maybe older adults or middle aged
adults think are in place, they're not in place. Kids
can really be led astray and influenced negatively because our
social media, the websites, the algorithms that are used. I
(32:47):
know there's some efforts here locally, even in the Ashen
City school system to protect kids so that algorithm doesn't
continue to feed them back stories like if you go
to one website that maybe you shouldn't have gone to,
maybe you went there by acxis next thing, you know,
the algorithm is sending you all kinds of things that
are similar to that, and it's hard to like escape it. Right.
Oh yeah, So this idea is we're not doing enough
(33:11):
to protect our young people virtually, but we're overprotecting him
in the real world, and he's asking for us to
maybe balance that, so let's do more protection in the
virtual world and less of the protection in the real world.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I think that's fascinating. Yeah, finding that balance, I think
is a challenge for parents in this day and age.
I'm finding ways to protect your kids and.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
How can we limit the screen time and encourage person
to person relationships more time in the natural world. And again,
listeners may know, we've talked a lot about Ashton County's
parks and how beautiful they are and how many we
have in Ashley County. So again, let's get out, let's
walk in those, let's take advantage of the natural beauty.
(33:57):
I do believe doctor Ashley Guinness, you know Guinness Book
of World Records. They were in town recently and they
were very impressed with our candy cane trail, such that
I think we got an award for the most like
aluminum structures in the world. Congrats to the mayor on
that and everybody able to involve. So last, but not least, here,
(34:20):
Jonathan mentions he does have solutions. One of the things
I like about all three of these books is there
are our solutions suggested and and Jonathan says his solutions
including hold on to this, you know listeners. Some of
these might sound difficult, but really they don't have to be.
So no smartphones. Doctor Ashley had to give me your
reactions to this. You have a youngster that's growing up.
(34:41):
No smartphones before high school. So there's a difference betew
between a flip phone or some people call them dumb
phones or smartphones. So no smartphones because again, the smartphone
gives you access to the Internet, social media, et cetera.
The basic flip phone doesn't do that. So the idea
of safety security, you know, sometimes parents need to get
(35:02):
hold or the young person needs to get hold of
the parents. That's fine, but just do that. And no
smartphones before high school.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I can see that. Like, I think that would limit
a lot of exposure, early exposure to things that are
concerning for kids, even bullying. You know, like at least
if they're being bullied at school or something, it's in
a social situation, someone can intervene. They're being bullied on
their smartphone, you may never know about it, very hard
and they're dealing with that alone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Because if they don't share it with you, you may
not know. You just recognize changes in your son or daughter, grandson, granddaughter,
and don't realize unless they share that this stuff is
all going on. Cyber bullying is a real thing. It is. Yes,
So no smartphones before high school, no social media before sixteen.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yeah, and I think you know a lot of kids
want to get on social.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Media before that might be the parents might have to
make the case why they're doing that. So Jonathan gives
you some ammunition in the book about why social media
before sixteen is deleterious or could be damaging for young
people again, because it's so it's such a wild west
out there on social media. And then he really encourages
third point phone free schools so that the phones could
(36:14):
be locked up in a locker. They're just not with
the students throughout the day because they are such a
tempting distraction to have right there.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Definitely, I don't know if all schools are that way.
My son's school is okaying free. They can have it
after school to call their parents or whatever, but before
that they don't have Yep, some of.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
These things are already some of our systems are already
moving to interact or implement some of these things, which
I was interested in. And last is far more unsupervised play,
getting back to our free range kids, far more unsupervised
play in childhood independence. So that was his fourth things.
So you know, those things don't cost a lot of money,
which I thought was encouraging. Right, parents can do these thing.
(36:52):
It's not more fancy than that. I think Jonathan makes
the point in his book The Anxious Generation, and those
four things we might begin to see a dramatic change
in our young people.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I like that there are things that people can actually
implement in their lives. I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Well, we've reached the end of this episode. It's a
little bit longer, but that's because we just did some
fun stuff with our you know, our recommendations and our books,
et cetera. So hopefully folks now have some gift ideas.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yes, and I'll take that one, all right, generation, all right.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I'll give it to you, doctor Ashley. Well until we
talk to you next time, doctor Ashley. Have a wonderful Christmas.
Thank you, mery Christmas, and happy New Year. Thank you
for listening to another episode of the Keeping an Ashline
Healthy podcast. The podcast is a production of the Mental
Health and Recovery Board of Ashland County, Ohio. You can
reach the board by calling four one nine two eight
(37:44):
one three one three nine. Please remember that the Board
funds a local twenty four to seven crisis line through
Applese Community Mental Health Center. It can be reached by
calling four one nine, two eight nine six ' one
one one. That's four one nine two eight nine. Until
next time, Please join us in keeping Ashland healthy.
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