March 11, 2025 • 24 mins
On today's special episode of Keeping Ashland Healthy, Dr. Ashley and the Boss speak with author, advocate, and chef Brook Siem about her book, 'May Cause Side Effects.' Brook will keynote this year's 16th Annual R.S.V.P. Conference in Ashland, Ohio. Brooke's award-winning book on coming off psychiatric medications is a must-read for prescribers, family members, and persons going through or considering discontinuation of psychiatric drugs. Register today for the RSVP Conference at the Board's website – www.ashlandmhrb.org or by calling us at 419.281.3139. Learn more about Brooke at: https://www.brookesiem.com/
(Record Date: March 4, 2025)
(Record Date: March 4, 2025)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome. You're listening to the Keeping Ashland Healthy Podcast, a
podcast production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of
Ashland County, Ohio. Thanks for joining us. Well, welcome everybody.
This is David Ross, Mental Health and Recovery Board Executive
Director and doctor Ashley Ackerman, and we have a very
(00:23):
very special guest. Our keynote speaker for this year's Pat
Risser Our s VP conference is Brooks Scene. Hi. Welcome, Brook,
Hi everyone. Brook I know you're gonna love this part.
I was going to read your bio because you know
who doesn't like hearing their bio read?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So if that's okay, especially when it makes so much sense, it.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Does cohesive, it is a very good bio.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So let me read that, okay. Continue?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Brooke was Brooks Scene was among the first generation of
teams to be medicated with antidepressants. After spending half her life,
in her entire adult life, on a cocktail of six drugs,
she wondered, and I love this wonderment. Who might I
be without them? And this is an important question unfurled
against a global backdrop and her work as an award
(01:19):
winning chef, brooks story chronicles explosive and terrifying antidepressant withdrawal,
and the fight to manage the modern mental health system,
all while demanding hope and forgiveness in the name of healing.
Her work on antidepressant withdrawal has appeared in The Washington Post,
New York Post, New York Times, Washington Examiner, Psychology Today,
and more. Her book May Cause Side Effects Strategically Placed
(01:42):
behind Me If You Look Closely won the twenty twenty
three Best Indie Book Award or the BEBA Prize for
Memoir and has been featured in outlets around the globe.
So again, I.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Did read the book.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I didn't just read a summary or a cliff notes
version for my older folks that know what clif notes are.
It was a wonderful book. I've said to multiple folks, Brook.
Why I love it is I've read technical manuals from folks.
But as you say, and you have a wonderful T
shirt that says I am not a doctor. Brooke is
not a doctor, but she speaks like so many folks
(02:20):
speak that have been impacted. And I love that perspective. Brooke.
I think that's what's going to make the conference so
special this year is you you speak in a way
that so many folks like you you're not alone, and
you make this point you're not alone and being impacted
even from an early age, from something from these psychiatric medications.
So I just appreciate your voice, so welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I'm impressed with myself. I sent you the cohesive bio.
Normally it is filled with stuff about my cooking career
and people are like, wait, why is the chef talking
about psychiatric john withdrawal? And then I have to explain it.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, well, you know, we just want to tease the
conference which is on or twenty six coming up at Ashland, Ohio.
If you want to come in person, you really need
to register to soon at our website Ashlan MHRB dot org,
or you can call us at four one nine two
eight one three one three nine. I'll put all of
this in the episode description, but we have only a
(03:16):
few spots left for in person, but we have unlimited spots.
If you want to join us virtually, you can do
that too. But wouldn't you want to see Brooke in person?
Get a book because we're going to have her book there.
You can get it signed and she might even say
something nice. I don't know it depends on remoot, but.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I'm gonna interrupt you for a second because I think
the real draw for coming in person is actually going
to be to see and work with my mother.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, yes, you've said this, and I am very intrigued.
And that was one of the other things. And we're
going to talk a little bit about the schedule briefly,
but yeah, Brooke is gonna talk individually, but then she
and her mom, Dee Barberish are gonna speak together on
stage in What was so intriguing about this to me,
Brooke was when I heard the two of you, I
(04:02):
think a Man in America podcast have that conversation. And
I literally remember, I was doing my normal I tend
to multitask Brook your high energy, so you understand I
do multiple things, and I stopped. I was listening to
you in d talk and I just I dropped my pen.
I said, oh my, this is not a conversation I've
heard before, and it was a desperately needed conversation. What
(04:27):
what I've been used to is when parents make decisions
for their for their children or child to go on
psychiatric medications because they're underage, they do that and then
they maybe regret that decision later on, but they feel
like they didn't get enough information, so they just thought
they were doing what was best. But nobody's really really
(04:48):
spoke to those situations before. And so yeah, that's one
of the breakouts that you and your mom, I think
are going to discuss and excited for that.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, me too. It's just my mom and I have
now had about twenty years of hindsight and adjustment in
our relationships since the time that I was medicated. I
was medicated for fifteen years, starting at fifteen, so from
fifteen to thirty, and there has been just such an
evolution of our relationship because we had to I mean,
(05:22):
we're I think we're extremely lucky because I was medicated
at fifteen because my dad died and there was only
the three of us in my family, so we went
from three to two. My mom and I sort of
had the unconscious choice to either going the same direction
together or to get at each other and separate based
on losing my dad, and we chose to go together.
(05:45):
And so we've had this very close bond the entire time.
But there's because of that, we've been able to talk
to each other about the realities of medicating children, and
how that impacted my life, how it impacted her life,
what she would have done differently, what are her regrets,
because I know she has some, I mean, but also
(06:05):
at the same time I can come at it with
an angle of forgiveness because we do have a strong relationship.
But we also notice that this isn't a conversation that's
really talked about. You very often hear about it from
one side, right, You only hear the parent talking about
the reason why they medicate the kid, or you hear
the kid talking about how pissed off they are that
they got medicated by a parent. But nobody's really talking
(06:25):
about how to repair these relationships, or how to create
meaning from them, or even just trying to come to
a place of understanding for why each person feels the
way they do. Because the relationship dynamic between a parent
and child is always unbalanced. I think that I think
in the core of every child is just the desire
(06:46):
to please their parents, even if the relationship is tumultuous.
So that is a difficult thing to do when the
parent consciously, unconsciously, even with really good intent, has effectively
hurt their kid in a very very meaningful way. So
how do we bring that conversation forward, How do we
(07:06):
make it easier for parents and kids to talk to
each other? And frankly, how do we help parents one
forgive themselves for the choices they made, but also give
them more information around this so they don't have to
regret a big decision.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right And as a as a.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Parent myself, Brook, I also I worry about making those
kinds of decisions without being really informed, and I think
hearing both sides of that perspective would be really helpful
for you know, both the parent and the child really.
So I'm hoping we get a lot of different kinds
of community members that come to.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Our SVP, and I think we will Doctor Ashley, because
I know we're going to have parents that have made
that decision and they're going to be listening to this
conversation and then maybe walk away with a different perspective
after it. I know they will, But you know, nobody's
really had this. That's why they're coming to the conference
(08:03):
because they have some mixed feelings. They've seen that the
changes in their son or their daughter as a result
of starting one or more of these medications, and you know,
maybe they've tried to talk about that with the prescriber
and it's maybe they're not feeling like that's gone as
far as it needs to go. So yeah, we will
have people in that situation. But also, as you say,
where maybe the child has grown, it's been some years
(08:26):
and we've got some folks that maybe they want to
repair that relationship if it is fractured, or maybe just
have these conversations. Maybe it's that thing that we don't
talk about, but that might be getting in the way
of a real healthy adult relationship. Now, So audience as
you can hear, yeah, you're not going to hear about this.
I mean, this is one of the things we do
with the RSVP conference. We always try to invite speakers
(08:49):
in that talk about issues that are meaningful. But you're
not going to get typically from conferences that are much
more focused on the medical model. And well, I'll stop
there before I get myself in trouble anyway. So uh,
that is one of the breakouts would be a d
In Brooke having this conversation. But one of the things
(09:14):
I think you're going to touch on when you do
your keynote, Brook is your book may cause side effects and.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Just a little teaser.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Maybe tell the audience what was the you know, the
genesis for why you decided, you know, I'm gonna I'm
gonna put this into a book. Because you spent a
lot of time on this, I'm glad that you've gotten
some recognition from the craft that went into it, not
just the story itself, which is powerful, but you are
actually an excellent writer. So maybe tell the audience a
little bit about, you know, why you decided to put
(09:41):
this down and try to get a book out of it.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, the the honest answer is I was unemployed and
didn't have anything better to do and thought it would
be a lot easier than it was. So I was
just like, yeah, I'll write a book. I had had
a literary body, right, Yeah. I had had a literary
agent from my time as a chef in New York
City because we are I owned a bakery, co owned
a bakery, and we had put out a really beautiful
(10:04):
cookbook as part of that experience, and my literary agent
at the time sort of floated the idea of writing
another book. And again, at the time, I had just
sold my bakery. I was about a year out or
a year into withdrawal. So I was starting to come
on the way out of it, or sorry, that's not
(10:25):
my English. What's early on this side of the country.
I was starting to come out of withdrawal, but I
was still in it, and I didn't know what I
wanted to do with my life. And when she said
maybe you should write this book, I sort of said, like, okay,
you know, I thought it would be pretty easy, because
writing the cookbook was pretty easy. Memoirs are a different story.
And I started to write it. I wrote the first draft,
(10:48):
which was horrible, and I knew it was really bad,
but write. About the time that I had finished this draft,
I started to see more articles pop up. There was
an article in the New York Times specifically that I
still remember very clearly called many people taking antidepressants discovered
they cannot quit. I think that was April of twenty
(11:09):
or twenty eighteen. And when that came out, I kind
of said, oh, okay, this is not I thought I
was rare at that point. I thought it was a
rare individual who had just had a crappy hand and
was on one side of the bell curve, and that
most people didn't have this issue. But when I saw
that and realized that this was national, you know, major
national news. I sensed that this is going to be
(11:32):
a much bigger issue going forward, and it changed my
purpose of the book. Instead of just kind of doing
something to pass the time, I said, this needs to
be a capstone book. It needs to be so well
written that it's respected from a literary perspective, because it
is very easy to get ironically bunched into kind of
(11:56):
the crazies here and when you're talking about this stuff,
especially early, to be dismissed right. And I realized that
the gap was going to be extremely small, that I
had to make sure that this was presented in a
way that was sort of undeniable from a quality standpoint
in order to be taken seriously since I'm not a doctor,
and that it also needed to come with the backing
(12:17):
of a real traditional publisher. This could not be a
self published book because I needed as many institutions and
legitimacy behind it, given that I don't have letters after
my name. So that process took about five years, and
I chose to write it the way I did, which
was intentionally not self help. It's not pop science. I
could write that book sometimes I think about writing that book,
(12:39):
but I wanted it to be memoir for the reason
simply because there is not another memoir on this topic
out there, and the way I wrote it, you get
into my head in a way that can help patients, prescribers,
or parents whoever it is, have a better understanding of
what their person is going through. And to do it
(13:02):
without all the science in there. It was very important
to me because if you're the patient, or if you're
just the person in psychiatric drug withdrawal, you kind of
don't give a shit about the science. I'm sorry, I've
already owned my swearing. You don't care about the science
when you're in that much suffering. It doesn't matter that
some people can do this and not have any issues.
(13:23):
And that's not the point, right. The point is you
were trying to explain the suffering, so you are you
are heard, and people understand and they don't make it worse.
And so I wanted to do that specifically from that
narrative angle, and I think it's been very effective. I
get lots and lots of heartbreaking but also uplifting emails
(13:46):
and correspondence from people, but I still wish I could
get it in the hands of every prescriber in the planet,
and that's that's kind of like the long term goal,
but we're not there yet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, part of what you've been doing since the book
came out, as you know, doing things like you're doing
at RSVP. You've gone to a variety of different events.
I've seen a few of them online where you've spoken
to various audiences. And again I know that might We've
had various authors on RSVP at the conference over the years,
and I know sometimes it takes a while for the
(14:19):
message to get out there. I know a lot of
the folks that are on a lot of different programs
and they feel like they talk about this, you know,
for so long, and so many people just don't know
about it. But this is one of those things, Brooke.
I mean, I hope you have the endurance for it
because I think it's so important. But it is going
to take time. That is the dilemma of you know,
(14:40):
for so many years there's been certain messaging around prescribing
and coming off which is so new that it's going
to take a while for I think the good word
and the good information and the hope that you bring
with your book to get out there, but it just
takes time, and I know that's hard for people that
maybe want to see that change quicker.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I mean, it's been nine years, so you know the
thing is, I have no idea where I am in
the marathon. I could be doing this for nine years
and still want to be a quarter of the way through.
Who knows, right?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Well, I mean I hope that's you know, that's a
good tease for the folks that are coming. Not only
will you get to hear Brooke and her mom, but
she's going to talk about her own journey in her
own book, and then in the afternoon d he's going
to talk a little bit about a particular approach that
she uses. And we have a couple other speakers, including
(15:30):
Ron Bassman. I don't know Brooke, if you know Ron,
but again, somebody from that older generation, that psychiatric survivor
movement from out of the seventies. And we've always tried
to invite folks like that as well, because trying to
remember our roots. Pat Risser was from that generation, and
you know, these were the people again that had the
insulin coma and the electro shock. Some of these really
(15:53):
barbaric kinds of treatments in the early days that really
because of their experiences that are like never again. I
don't want this to happen to anybody again. So it's
it's always nice when we can get somebody from that
from that that generation, because it's harder and harder as
you might imagine to get those folks, uh to come
to conferences and to speak for all manner of reasons.
(16:13):
So I'm excited about the entire day. So if folks
have not yet signed up, do it at www dot
Ashland and HRB dot org or calls at four one
nine two eight one three one three nine. Now, Brooke,
I know we said we're just going to tease this.
Is there anything else that you'd like to say to
the to the folks that are listening or hearing the
(16:35):
broadcast today about the conference?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
You know? I will I'm not gonna say anything about
the conference specifically because I have not yet, but I
will say that the thing I thought was in my
bio that wasn't oh, is the fact that I am
a Food Network Chopped champion. My my day job has
been is a is a personal chef. I owned a
(17:00):
bakery and I did all the restaurantsuff in New York,
and now I'm a personal performance chef to pro athletes.
I actually was the private chef to Joey Vado for
many years a Cincinnati Red So I only say that
because people love chopped and they love talking about that.
So I am willing. I am more than willing to
sacrifice a few minutes of my time to answer very
(17:23):
important questions about that. I cannot guarantee that I will
bring snacks, but I can advise you on how to
make some snacks. Oh and actually I can talk about
nutrition and an impact on mental health, because I do
that a lot too. For you know. Tie it back in.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I like that, do you tell brook about the mushroom
soup of a congress?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Well, I'm afraid to tell her about the soup because
she is so versed and she is a chef. I
like to joke that we build a conference around a soup.
I really enjoy the soup that they make at the conference.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
But see now I'm going to build it up and
Brooks going to be like, David, that is horse Well,
it's horrible. I mean, what were you thinking?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Why do you think? Only if you ask me for
my opinion. Otherwise I'll just be happy to be fed.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I may mention the munt suit. I've done that over
the years at the conference. I do like it, I
have to admit, but I don't know. It's just me.
Everybody's taste is different. But yes, we will, we will
have to include that because Brooke did win that. And again,
if I recall, you were still going through withdrawal when
you filmed that.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I was in withdrawal, like pretty badly when we film chopped.
It was my episode was season thirty two, episode six,
and if you watch it, it's the editors were very kind.
I was worried walking out of there because I was
very up and down. You know, a hallmark, hallmark side
effect of psychiatri drug withdrawal and anti depressive withdrawal is
(18:47):
emotional swings. And for me, they I could go into,
you know, forty different emotions in the span of you know,
a day, like it wasn't some people have long windows
and waves. I had very short ones. So I was
just a little rollercoaster all the time. So the whole
day I was like sobbing.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
And then I'd be okay, and then the camera would
turned on and I'd try and not be puffy, and
then I'd be sobbing again. And I'm just very lucky
that the editors, I think, liked me and took pity
on me and decided to edit me into a complete mess.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I also wasn't confident in what was going on, and
it was at the beginning of withdrawal, so I didn't
know what was happening. So I didn't tell them what
was going on either, And in retrospect, like if I
had told them, I kind of wondered if they would
have edited in because that was what was going on.
But we that was the narrative that we chose. But
I can see it now walking back watching back that show,
(19:38):
I can see the struggle but most people couldn't.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, there's a I don't know exactly when, but there
was this well I say great just because great in
terms of how impactful it is of you, Like like
sitting in a low boy freezer and the look on
your face. I think you were just you were you
were having a different book, you were just.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
To cool down.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
It's just a great The look on your face though,
it's just like she's in the middle of something that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Is Unfortunately during that time, I had a different cell phone.
I had an Android as opposed to an Apple, and
somehow I lost all the photos that were taking during
that time because I only had the Android for like
a year and a half and then I got rid
of it and those photos never made it, and that
bumms me out because there was a documentation of withdrawal
(20:27):
there that I don't have, and that's one of the
only photos from that time where I can really see
what was going on, and I'm glad I have it
because it reminds me of how bad things were and how.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Far I've come and how far you've come. And that's
just it. And so I hope folks have heard enough,
and if you haven't yet registered, please do so. You're
going to learn a lot from broken all the speakers,
and again, you just don't hear these kinds of speakers
or messages as much. I mean, we're trying to increase
(21:00):
the volume of these types of conferences and content, So
please come out and join us in Ashland, either in
person or over zoom. Coming up on March twenty sixth.
The price we've tried to subsidize as much as we
can is only twenty dollars in person, ten dollars online.
It's all on people.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
It is great, right.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So we are a governmental agency, so we try to
make the price as reasonable as we can because we
want the information. It's critical information. We want to get
that out there too. As Brooke said, whether it's the family,
those that are maybe thinking about with draw or have
are going through it, the prescribers, the family members, there's
a variety of audiences, which is the other thing that
(21:42):
I'm excited about to get those folks talking about this
important subject. So thank you very much, Brooke. We are
very much looking forward to you and your mom joining
us coming up on the twenty six.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, I'm going to say one more thing, so my
mom like, yes, we're going to be having this conversation
between the two of us. But another thing that my
mom agreed to do, which is extremely cool, is I
used when I was recovering from withdrawal. I used a
particular form of counseling that's not particularly well known. It's
called compassionate key and it's most similar to in her
(22:14):
family systems. If you had to make a comparison, it's
a little different, but it's sort of like that in
a way, and she I ended up working with someone
who really transformed my life. I mean, it was just
so important. And my mom saw what had happened to
me and how important this was, and she's always been
She's always been She's just an angel. And so she
(22:36):
actually decided she was going to quit what she was
doing and change careers in her She would have been
in her sixties at this point, and so now she
is one of the only fifty Master compassion Key practitioners
in the world, and she specializes in supporting people who
are getting off of psychiatric drugs and also supporting family
(22:59):
members people who are getting off of psychiatric drugs. And
this modality allows you to work one on one but
also in groups. So she has agreed to do a
group session while we're there, and so everyone who comes
will be able to participate in this. And it's not
something don't worry, You're not going to stand up on
stage and bear your soul. It's not that it's a
(23:19):
lot of internal work. But I think getting to see
this modality in this practice from someone who is so
experienced in this topic is going to be extremely special.
I'm honestly not sure if it will ever happen again,
and whether or not it's a practitioner or a patient
or family member like it will be. I think it's
going to be really powerful. And so certainly for twenty
(23:42):
dollars that in itself more than worth it.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
That is great. And again I remember when we were
planning for the conference, I know De wanted certain things
for that session to happen that we'll make sure that
we very accessory.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, that's right, I got all.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
We're ready already. Thank you for listening to another episode
of the Keeping Ashland Healthy podcast. The podcast is a
production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of Ashland County, Ohio.
You can reach the board by calling four one nine
two eight one three one three nine. Please remember that
the Board funds a local twenty four to seven crisis
line through Applesea Community Mental Health Center. It can be
(24:21):
reached by calling four one nine two eight nine sixty
one one one. That's four one nine two eight nine
sixty one one one. Until next time, please join us
in Keeping Ashland Healthy
Welcome. You're listening to the Keeping Ashland Healthy Podcast, a
podcast production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of
Ashland County, Ohio. Thanks for joining us. Well, welcome everybody.
This is David Ross, Mental Health and Recovery Board Executive
Director and doctor Ashley Ackerman, and we have a very
(00:23):
very special guest. Our keynote speaker for this year's Pat
Risser Our s VP conference is Brooks Scene. Hi. Welcome, Brook,
Hi everyone. Brook I know you're gonna love this part.
I was going to read your bio because you know
who doesn't like hearing their bio read?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So if that's okay, especially when it makes so much sense, it.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Does cohesive, it is a very good bio.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So let me read that, okay. Continue?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Brooke was Brooks Scene was among the first generation of
teams to be medicated with antidepressants. After spending half her life,
in her entire adult life, on a cocktail of six drugs,
she wondered, and I love this wonderment. Who might I
be without them? And this is an important question unfurled
against a global backdrop and her work as an award
(01:19):
winning chef, brooks story chronicles explosive and terrifying antidepressant withdrawal,
and the fight to manage the modern mental health system,
all while demanding hope and forgiveness in the name of healing.
Her work on antidepressant withdrawal has appeared in The Washington Post,
New York Post, New York Times, Washington Examiner, Psychology Today,
and more. Her book May Cause Side Effects Strategically Placed
(01:42):
behind Me If You Look Closely won the twenty twenty
three Best Indie Book Award or the BEBA Prize for
Memoir and has been featured in outlets around the globe.
So again, I.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Did read the book.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I didn't just read a summary or a cliff notes
version for my older folks that know what clif notes are.
It was a wonderful book. I've said to multiple folks, Brook.
Why I love it is I've read technical manuals from folks.
But as you say, and you have a wonderful T
shirt that says I am not a doctor. Brooke is
not a doctor, but she speaks like so many folks
(02:20):
speak that have been impacted. And I love that perspective. Brooke.
I think that's what's going to make the conference so
special this year is you you speak in a way
that so many folks like you you're not alone, and
you make this point you're not alone and being impacted
even from an early age, from something from these psychiatric medications.
So I just appreciate your voice, so welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I'm impressed with myself. I sent you the cohesive bio.
Normally it is filled with stuff about my cooking career
and people are like, wait, why is the chef talking
about psychiatric john withdrawal? And then I have to explain it.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, well, you know, we just want to tease the
conference which is on or twenty six coming up at Ashland, Ohio.
If you want to come in person, you really need
to register to soon at our website Ashlan MHRB dot org,
or you can call us at four one nine two
eight one three one three nine. I'll put all of
this in the episode description, but we have only a
(03:16):
few spots left for in person, but we have unlimited spots.
If you want to join us virtually, you can do
that too. But wouldn't you want to see Brooke in person?
Get a book because we're going to have her book there.
You can get it signed and she might even say
something nice. I don't know it depends on remoot, but.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I'm gonna interrupt you for a second because I think
the real draw for coming in person is actually going
to be to see and work with my mother.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, yes, you've said this, and I am very intrigued.
And that was one of the other things. And we're
going to talk a little bit about the schedule briefly,
but yeah, Brooke is gonna talk individually, but then she
and her mom, Dee Barberish are gonna speak together on
stage in What was so intriguing about this to me,
Brooke was when I heard the two of you, I
(04:02):
think a Man in America podcast have that conversation. And
I literally remember, I was doing my normal I tend
to multitask Brook your high energy, so you understand I
do multiple things, and I stopped. I was listening to
you in d talk and I just I dropped my pen.
I said, oh my, this is not a conversation I've
heard before, and it was a desperately needed conversation. What
(04:27):
what I've been used to is when parents make decisions
for their for their children or child to go on
psychiatric medications because they're underage, they do that and then
they maybe regret that decision later on, but they feel
like they didn't get enough information, so they just thought
they were doing what was best. But nobody's really really
(04:48):
spoke to those situations before. And so yeah, that's one
of the breakouts that you and your mom, I think
are going to discuss and excited for that.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, me too. It's just my mom and I have
now had about twenty years of hindsight and adjustment in
our relationships since the time that I was medicated. I
was medicated for fifteen years, starting at fifteen, so from
fifteen to thirty, and there has been just such an
evolution of our relationship because we had to I mean,
(05:22):
we're I think we're extremely lucky because I was medicated
at fifteen because my dad died and there was only
the three of us in my family, so we went
from three to two. My mom and I sort of
had the unconscious choice to either going the same direction
together or to get at each other and separate based
on losing my dad, and we chose to go together.
(05:45):
And so we've had this very close bond the entire time.
But there's because of that, we've been able to talk
to each other about the realities of medicating children, and
how that impacted my life, how it impacted her life,
what she would have done differently, what are her regrets,
because I know she has some, I mean, but also
(06:05):
at the same time I can come at it with
an angle of forgiveness because we do have a strong relationship.
But we also notice that this isn't a conversation that's
really talked about. You very often hear about it from
one side, right, You only hear the parent talking about
the reason why they medicate the kid, or you hear
the kid talking about how pissed off they are that
they got medicated by a parent. But nobody's really talking
(06:25):
about how to repair these relationships, or how to create
meaning from them, or even just trying to come to
a place of understanding for why each person feels the
way they do. Because the relationship dynamic between a parent
and child is always unbalanced. I think that I think
in the core of every child is just the desire
(06:46):
to please their parents, even if the relationship is tumultuous.
So that is a difficult thing to do when the
parent consciously, unconsciously, even with really good intent, has effectively
hurt their kid in a very very meaningful way. So
how do we bring that conversation forward, How do we
(07:06):
make it easier for parents and kids to talk to
each other? And frankly, how do we help parents one
forgive themselves for the choices they made, but also give
them more information around this so they don't have to
regret a big decision.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right And as a as a.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Parent myself, Brook, I also I worry about making those
kinds of decisions without being really informed, and I think
hearing both sides of that perspective would be really helpful
for you know, both the parent and the child really.
So I'm hoping we get a lot of different kinds
of community members that come to.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Our SVP, and I think we will Doctor Ashley, because
I know we're going to have parents that have made
that decision and they're going to be listening to this
conversation and then maybe walk away with a different perspective
after it. I know they will, But you know, nobody's
really had this. That's why they're coming to the conference
(08:03):
because they have some mixed feelings. They've seen that the
changes in their son or their daughter as a result
of starting one or more of these medications, and you know,
maybe they've tried to talk about that with the prescriber
and it's maybe they're not feeling like that's gone as
far as it needs to go. So yeah, we will
have people in that situation. But also, as you say,
where maybe the child has grown, it's been some years
(08:26):
and we've got some folks that maybe they want to
repair that relationship if it is fractured, or maybe just
have these conversations. Maybe it's that thing that we don't
talk about, but that might be getting in the way
of a real healthy adult relationship. Now, So audience as
you can hear, yeah, you're not going to hear about this.
I mean, this is one of the things we do
with the RSVP conference. We always try to invite speakers
(08:49):
in that talk about issues that are meaningful. But you're
not going to get typically from conferences that are much
more focused on the medical model. And well, I'll stop
there before I get myself in trouble anyway. So uh,
that is one of the breakouts would be a d
In Brooke having this conversation. But one of the things
(09:14):
I think you're going to touch on when you do
your keynote, Brook is your book may cause side effects and.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Just a little teaser.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Maybe tell the audience what was the you know, the
genesis for why you decided, you know, I'm gonna I'm
gonna put this into a book. Because you spent a
lot of time on this, I'm glad that you've gotten
some recognition from the craft that went into it, not
just the story itself, which is powerful, but you are
actually an excellent writer. So maybe tell the audience a
little bit about, you know, why you decided to put
(09:41):
this down and try to get a book out of it.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, the the honest answer is I was unemployed and
didn't have anything better to do and thought it would
be a lot easier than it was. So I was
just like, yeah, I'll write a book. I had had
a literary body, right, Yeah. I had had a literary
agent from my time as a chef in New York
City because we are I owned a bakery, co owned
a bakery, and we had put out a really beautiful
(10:04):
cookbook as part of that experience, and my literary agent
at the time sort of floated the idea of writing
another book. And again, at the time, I had just
sold my bakery. I was about a year out or
a year into withdrawal. So I was starting to come
on the way out of it, or sorry, that's not
(10:25):
my English. What's early on this side of the country.
I was starting to come out of withdrawal, but I
was still in it, and I didn't know what I
wanted to do with my life. And when she said
maybe you should write this book, I sort of said, like, okay,
you know, I thought it would be pretty easy, because
writing the cookbook was pretty easy. Memoirs are a different story.
And I started to write it. I wrote the first draft,
(10:48):
which was horrible, and I knew it was really bad,
but write. About the time that I had finished this draft,
I started to see more articles pop up. There was
an article in the New York Times specifically that I
still remember very clearly called many people taking antidepressants discovered
they cannot quit. I think that was April of twenty
(11:09):
or twenty eighteen. And when that came out, I kind
of said, oh, okay, this is not I thought I
was rare at that point. I thought it was a
rare individual who had just had a crappy hand and
was on one side of the bell curve, and that
most people didn't have this issue. But when I saw
that and realized that this was national, you know, major
national news. I sensed that this is going to be
(11:32):
a much bigger issue going forward, and it changed my
purpose of the book. Instead of just kind of doing
something to pass the time, I said, this needs to
be a capstone book. It needs to be so well
written that it's respected from a literary perspective, because it
is very easy to get ironically bunched into kind of
(11:56):
the crazies here and when you're talking about this stuff,
especially early, to be dismissed right. And I realized that
the gap was going to be extremely small, that I
had to make sure that this was presented in a
way that was sort of undeniable from a quality standpoint
in order to be taken seriously since I'm not a doctor,
and that it also needed to come with the backing
(12:17):
of a real traditional publisher. This could not be a
self published book because I needed as many institutions and
legitimacy behind it, given that I don't have letters after
my name. So that process took about five years, and
I chose to write it the way I did, which
was intentionally not self help. It's not pop science. I
could write that book sometimes I think about writing that book,
(12:39):
but I wanted it to be memoir for the reason
simply because there is not another memoir on this topic
out there, and the way I wrote it, you get
into my head in a way that can help patients, prescribers,
or parents whoever it is, have a better understanding of
what their person is going through. And to do it
(13:02):
without all the science in there. It was very important
to me because if you're the patient, or if you're
just the person in psychiatric drug withdrawal, you kind of
don't give a shit about the science. I'm sorry, I've
already owned my swearing. You don't care about the science
when you're in that much suffering. It doesn't matter that
some people can do this and not have any issues.
(13:23):
And that's not the point, right. The point is you
were trying to explain the suffering, so you are you
are heard, and people understand and they don't make it worse.
And so I wanted to do that specifically from that
narrative angle, and I think it's been very effective. I
get lots and lots of heartbreaking but also uplifting emails
(13:46):
and correspondence from people, but I still wish I could
get it in the hands of every prescriber in the planet,
and that's that's kind of like the long term goal,
but we're not there yet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, part of what you've been doing since the book
came out, as you know, doing things like you're doing
at RSVP. You've gone to a variety of different events.
I've seen a few of them online where you've spoken
to various audiences. And again I know that might We've
had various authors on RSVP at the conference over the years,
and I know sometimes it takes a while for the
(14:19):
message to get out there. I know a lot of
the folks that are on a lot of different programs
and they feel like they talk about this, you know,
for so long, and so many people just don't know
about it. But this is one of those things, Brooke.
I mean, I hope you have the endurance for it
because I think it's so important. But it is going
to take time. That is the dilemma of you know,
(14:40):
for so many years there's been certain messaging around prescribing
and coming off which is so new that it's going
to take a while for I think the good word
and the good information and the hope that you bring
with your book to get out there, but it just
takes time, and I know that's hard for people that
maybe want to see that change quicker.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I mean, it's been nine years, so you know the
thing is, I have no idea where I am in
the marathon. I could be doing this for nine years
and still want to be a quarter of the way through.
Who knows, right?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Well, I mean I hope that's you know, that's a
good tease for the folks that are coming. Not only
will you get to hear Brooke and her mom, but
she's going to talk about her own journey in her
own book, and then in the afternoon d he's going
to talk a little bit about a particular approach that
she uses. And we have a couple other speakers, including
(15:30):
Ron Bassman. I don't know Brooke, if you know Ron,
but again, somebody from that older generation, that psychiatric survivor
movement from out of the seventies. And we've always tried
to invite folks like that as well, because trying to
remember our roots. Pat Risser was from that generation, and
you know, these were the people again that had the
insulin coma and the electro shock. Some of these really
(15:53):
barbaric kinds of treatments in the early days that really
because of their experiences that are like never again. I
don't want this to happen to anybody again. So it's
it's always nice when we can get somebody from that
from that that generation, because it's harder and harder as
you might imagine to get those folks, uh to come
to conferences and to speak for all manner of reasons.
(16:13):
So I'm excited about the entire day. So if folks
have not yet signed up, do it at www dot
Ashland and HRB dot org or calls at four one
nine two eight one three one three nine. Now, Brooke,
I know we said we're just going to tease this.
Is there anything else that you'd like to say to
the to the folks that are listening or hearing the
(16:35):
broadcast today about the conference?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
You know? I will I'm not gonna say anything about
the conference specifically because I have not yet, but I
will say that the thing I thought was in my
bio that wasn't oh, is the fact that I am
a Food Network Chopped champion. My my day job has
been is a is a personal chef. I owned a
(17:00):
bakery and I did all the restaurantsuff in New York,
and now I'm a personal performance chef to pro athletes.
I actually was the private chef to Joey Vado for
many years a Cincinnati Red So I only say that
because people love chopped and they love talking about that.
So I am willing. I am more than willing to
sacrifice a few minutes of my time to answer very
(17:23):
important questions about that. I cannot guarantee that I will
bring snacks, but I can advise you on how to
make some snacks. Oh and actually I can talk about
nutrition and an impact on mental health, because I do
that a lot too. For you know. Tie it back in.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I like that, do you tell brook about the mushroom
soup of a congress?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Well, I'm afraid to tell her about the soup because
she is so versed and she is a chef. I
like to joke that we build a conference around a soup.
I really enjoy the soup that they make at the conference.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
But see now I'm going to build it up and
Brooks going to be like, David, that is horse Well,
it's horrible. I mean, what were you thinking?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Why do you think? Only if you ask me for
my opinion. Otherwise I'll just be happy to be fed.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I may mention the munt suit. I've done that over
the years at the conference. I do like it, I
have to admit, but I don't know. It's just me.
Everybody's taste is different. But yes, we will, we will
have to include that because Brooke did win that. And again,
if I recall, you were still going through withdrawal when
you filmed that.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I was in withdrawal, like pretty badly when we film chopped.
It was my episode was season thirty two, episode six,
and if you watch it, it's the editors were very kind.
I was worried walking out of there because I was
very up and down. You know, a hallmark, hallmark side
effect of psychiatri drug withdrawal and anti depressive withdrawal is
(18:47):
emotional swings. And for me, they I could go into,
you know, forty different emotions in the span of you know,
a day, like it wasn't some people have long windows
and waves. I had very short ones. So I was
just a little rollercoaster all the time. So the whole
day I was like sobbing.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
And then I'd be okay, and then the camera would
turned on and I'd try and not be puffy, and
then I'd be sobbing again. And I'm just very lucky
that the editors, I think, liked me and took pity
on me and decided to edit me into a complete mess.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I also wasn't confident in what was going on, and
it was at the beginning of withdrawal, so I didn't
know what was happening. So I didn't tell them what
was going on either, And in retrospect, like if I
had told them, I kind of wondered if they would
have edited in because that was what was going on.
But we that was the narrative that we chose. But
I can see it now walking back watching back that show,
(19:38):
I can see the struggle but most people couldn't.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, there's a I don't know exactly when, but there
was this well I say great just because great in
terms of how impactful it is of you, Like like
sitting in a low boy freezer and the look on
your face. I think you were just you were you
were having a different book, you were just.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
To cool down.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
It's just a great The look on your face though,
it's just like she's in the middle of something that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Is Unfortunately during that time, I had a different cell phone.
I had an Android as opposed to an Apple, and
somehow I lost all the photos that were taking during
that time because I only had the Android for like
a year and a half and then I got rid
of it and those photos never made it, and that
bumms me out because there was a documentation of withdrawal
(20:27):
there that I don't have, and that's one of the
only photos from that time where I can really see
what was going on, and I'm glad I have it
because it reminds me of how bad things were and how.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Far I've come and how far you've come. And that's
just it. And so I hope folks have heard enough,
and if you haven't yet registered, please do so. You're
going to learn a lot from broken all the speakers,
and again, you just don't hear these kinds of speakers
or messages as much. I mean, we're trying to increase
(21:00):
the volume of these types of conferences and content, So
please come out and join us in Ashland, either in
person or over zoom. Coming up on March twenty sixth.
The price we've tried to subsidize as much as we
can is only twenty dollars in person, ten dollars online.
It's all on people.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
It is great, right.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So we are a governmental agency, so we try to
make the price as reasonable as we can because we
want the information. It's critical information. We want to get
that out there too. As Brooke said, whether it's the family,
those that are maybe thinking about with draw or have
are going through it, the prescribers, the family members, there's
a variety of audiences, which is the other thing that
(21:42):
I'm excited about to get those folks talking about this
important subject. So thank you very much, Brooke. We are
very much looking forward to you and your mom joining
us coming up on the twenty six.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, I'm going to say one more thing, so my
mom like, yes, we're going to be having this conversation
between the two of us. But another thing that my
mom agreed to do, which is extremely cool, is I
used when I was recovering from withdrawal. I used a
particular form of counseling that's not particularly well known. It's
called compassionate key and it's most similar to in her
(22:14):
family systems. If you had to make a comparison, it's
a little different, but it's sort of like that in
a way, and she I ended up working with someone
who really transformed my life. I mean, it was just
so important. And my mom saw what had happened to
me and how important this was, and she's always been
She's always been She's just an angel. And so she
(22:36):
actually decided she was going to quit what she was
doing and change careers in her She would have been
in her sixties at this point, and so now she
is one of the only fifty Master compassion Key practitioners
in the world, and she specializes in supporting people who
are getting off of psychiatric drugs and also supporting family
(22:59):
members people who are getting off of psychiatric drugs. And
this modality allows you to work one on one but
also in groups. So she has agreed to do a
group session while we're there, and so everyone who comes
will be able to participate in this. And it's not
something don't worry, You're not going to stand up on
stage and bear your soul. It's not that it's a
(23:19):
lot of internal work. But I think getting to see
this modality in this practice from someone who is so
experienced in this topic is going to be extremely special.
I'm honestly not sure if it will ever happen again,
and whether or not it's a practitioner or a patient
or family member like it will be. I think it's
going to be really powerful. And so certainly for twenty
(23:42):
dollars that in itself more than worth it.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
That is great. And again I remember when we were
planning for the conference, I know De wanted certain things
for that session to happen that we'll make sure that
we very accessory.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, that's right, I got all.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
We're ready already. Thank you for listening to another episode
of the Keeping Ashland Healthy podcast. The podcast is a
production of the Mental Health and Recovery Board of Ashland County, Ohio.
You can reach the board by calling four one nine
two eight one three one three nine. Please remember that
the Board funds a local twenty four to seven crisis
line through Applesea Community Mental Health Center. It can be
(24:21):
reached by calling four one nine two eight nine sixty
one one one. That's four one nine two eight nine
sixty one one one. Until next time, please join us
in Keeping Ashland Healthy
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